Great Western Coffee Shop

According to the MTLS website, it was agreed at the meeting held in Bath last night that another 'fare strike' will take place on January 28th. More info to come in a press release today:

http://mtls.org.uk/node/12

Well lets hope FGW take a tough line and bring in the Revenue Potection Staff,

Whilst we admire (with a degree of jealousy, it must be said) the publicity achieved for the particular causes being promoted,

That would only get FGW even more bad press.

Wrong, It'll give MTLS bad press, as they actively break the law to try and get there point across. Which will end up making there opinions even less credible than they currently arn't.

I'd personally applaud FGW for enforcing the law, and making sure the people breaking it get heavily fined.

MTLS is concerned about raising the awareness of the poor (understatement) performance of FGW. They are asking people to participate in a protest dubbed a fare strike. We will be handing out alternative tickets and urging passengers to show these rather than their valid tickets. The recipient will know they are not valid for journeys. How they access/exit the platform is a decision to be made by the individual. This is not one that MTLS can make or should make for them. If we called it a "train protest" or something else as twee, then it would not have the same impact with the media, would it?

If you are worried about being prosecuted, then by all means, show your valid ticket.

.

RMT members have a contract to work but when they feel treated badly they consider it justified to break that contract and strike.  FGW passengers have a contract with FGW to pay for their travel but when they feel that they have been treated badly (and by any measure they are treated badly) they consider it justified to break that contract for a day.  I know this is a gross simplification and there are legal and factual differences between the two situations but I do think that their is some kind of moral equivalence. 



I know that lots of FGW staff feel that they don't get the respect that they deserve from the public (and they would be correct in such a view) but they must realise that respect goes both ways and lack of sympathy for the long suffering passenger will only rebound as lack of sympathy for the long suffering staff.   

 

When the RMT and ASLEF as well for that matter decide to have industrial action including the complete withdrawal of all labour they do it within the confine of the law.
Not buying a ticket I am sorry to say is against the law so Tim me old China your argument don't hold any water!

...yes i know, and i've post my own personal view on it...

problem?

Wrong, It'll give MTLS bad press, as they actively break the law to try and get there point across.

Not at all. I felt that the debate didnt reflect the fact that MTLS are asking fare strike participents to decide for themselves whether or not to break the law. See quote below :

Wrong, It'll give MTLS bad press, as they actively break the law to try and get there point across. Which will end up making there opinions even less credible than they currently arn't.

That would only get FGW even more bad press.

As I have said before (and this isn't a personal comment on you, Dogbox, I have no idea of your union affiliation and views), I think it slightly hypocrytical of rail staff to condemn MTLS's strike as if it was the worst crime in the world when they work in an industry that must be one of the most militant and strike-prone in the country.

RMT members have a contract to work but when they feel treated badly they consider it justified to break that contract and strike.  FGW passengers have a contract with FGW to pay for their travel but when they feel that they have been treated badly (and by any measure they are treated badly) they consider it justified to break that contract for a day.  I know this is a gross simplification and there are legal and factual differences between the two situations but I do think that their is some kind of moral equivalence. 

From a personal point of view,  anti-MTLS comments from rail staff (and I would include Dogbox in this - sorry)  gives me a negative impression of you all.  It makes me and perhaps others less sypathetic of your own battles with FGW, less likely to view your mistakes sympathetcially, more likely to moan about you and complain to FGW and less likely to give praise where it is due.  Basically, it gives me the impression that you are all heartless jobsworths.  I know that that isn't true, but it is the impression you give when I read the "I hope they all get caught and sent down" comments on this forum.

I know that lots of FGW staff feel that they don't get the respect that they deserve from the public (and they would be correct in such a view) but they must realise that respect goes both ways and lack of sympathy for the long suffering passenger will only rebound as lack of sympathy for the long suffering staff.   

BTW, I won't be taking part in the strike myself but I do admire the MTLS folk who sacrifice their own time to organise it and who run the risk of prosecution to make a political point. 

But doesn't the Press coverage that MTLS generates contribute to the shouting that is needed if we are going to get some of the new vehicles down here in the SW?  Whatever the rights or wrongs of the fare strike it will give the government the true impression that SW Commuters are angry with their train service.  Is that not a good thing?

Whatever the rights or wrongs of the fare strike I would re-make the following points:

1) In any press coverage of the strike or any subsequnt prosecution for fare evasion, FGW will come off badly.  This may well be unfair but it is what will happen.  The press loves knocking the TOCS and will always side with the "average passenger" (even if they are a criminal).

2) My prediction is that very few if any people will actually not have a ticket but that a large number of people will show a fake ticket (I know that this in itself is an offense) and that after warnings from staff and gentle threats of prosecution and/or penalty fares the correct ticket will be shown and the matter will go no further.  This would seem to be the most satisfactory conclusion all round.  The fare gets paid, no revenue is lost, the commuter gets to make his valid point about high prices and poor service and the relationship between customer and staff is not soured anymore than it needs to be.  If the transaction involves good humour on both sides then so much the better.

If you will excuse the diversion, I'll give you a little bot of background as to why I think I find the anti-MTLS commenst of staff so distasteful...

I was a teenager in Rosyth in Fife and remember the miners' strike very well.  I was not involved in the dispute myself nor was my family but I remember donating tins of food to the miners and my parents talking to friends who worked in the pits and seeing and hearing about the scuffles on the picket lines, the vandalism to the road haulier's lorries (used to transport the coal because the Railwaymen where refusing to move it) and the action of the Police.  Looking back on the dispute years later, I have to say that both sides behaved badly at times, but I remember the hatred that the miners had for the Police Officers who were drafted in from outside the area (from places like London) as opposed to those who were from the local force.  Both sets of Police enforced the law (and there were certainly some actions of the miners that were illegal (regardless of whether you think that they were morally justified)), but whereas by and large the local cops did it in a sympathetic way, the lads from the Met where over-fueled on testosterone, overpaid (on overtime) and lacked a sensititivity of the issues.   They were champing at the bit to set about some miners and teach them a lesson they wouldn't forget.  Until the strike I had always assumed that the Police woudl always be on my side but what I heard from the miners changed my view of the Police and especially the Metropolitant Police.  Twenty years later I am a law-abiding professional living in Bath and I know that the Police are almost all brave hardworking people trying to make a difference, but deep-down I still harbour an anti-Police streak so that when I heard that Met Officers had shot a Brazillian in Stockwell, I surprise myself by not thinking "tragic accident", but by my first thought being, "trigger-happy thugs".   

I am not trying to equate Tony Ambrose to Arthur Scargill, or officious RPIs with trigger-happy Policemen but I would draw two comparisons:

1) It is distasteful when people visibly gloat and openly enjoy the power that they have over others whether it is Policemen waving ^20 notes at miners on the picket line or FGW staff making comments about dusting off their penalty fares notebooks.  This comment applies regardless of whether that power is legitimate or illegitimate.

2) You can be a decent, tolerant person but if you or someone else wearing the same uniform acts in the distasteful way described above, the sour taste left in the public's mouth can last for years and can rebound on you.

Sorry mate but i cannot really see how not supporting a group who intend ON breaking the law is going to make me a  heartless jobsworth.
Put it like this if i worked for Tescos and the price of milk went up to ^1 a pint and i was on the check out would i say to the shopper who complained yeah i totally agree with you and you take it on for nothing.
The bottom line is if you think the price of milk is too expensive you wont buy it ,everything is going up at the moment Utility bills, council tax { do you get a better service from them every year?}.
I do realise Rail travel is prehaps the only option for some people, but overcrowding and fare increases are not just something thats limited to fgw land.
As i have said on another post if the energy and passion put into moaning complaining  and organising fare strikes was chanelled into working together to improve our local rail services prehaps we may be able to move forward .
Other regions seem to be able to do it and get results because if we dont shout loud enough now precious few of the governments 1300 new carriages will be comming our way!!

My prediction is that very few if any people will actually not have a ticket but that a large number of people will show a fake ticket (I know that this in itself is an offense) and that after warnings from staff and gentle threats of prosecution and/or penalty fares the correct ticket will be shown and the matter will go no further.  This would seem to be the most satisfactory conclusion all round.  The fare gets paid, no revenue is lost, the commuter gets to make his valid point about high prices and poor service and the relationship between customer and staff is not soured anymore than it needs to be.  If the transaction involves good humour on both sides then so much the better.

Please everyone, try to take a balanced view.

Your entitled to your opinion, and so am I, my position hasn't changed, I will lose no sleep about reporting someone who BREAKS THE LAW!

Once again, he's entitled to his own opinion, so is everyone else.

Theres no need to have a go at him for it.

I disagree. It will have a very negative effect on both sides. Tim's absolutely right. The press always sympathize with the long-suffering passenger who's put up with months of misery on the rails, and of course I can see why MTLS have a very valid point. Anyone who hasn't seen the shocking decline in service since FGW took over the Wessex franchise have either been living under a rock or see passengers as an irritating complaining bunch who shouldn't even be on trains(!).

As I've said before, the press and news will interview MTLS and anyone fined for evasion and have a field day throwing critisism at FGW for the poor service and why they haven't improved things or listened. Such news will no doubt make people angrier, and drive even more away from FGW trains and onto the roads. That's the last thing FGW need.

However, I can say that very recently things -have- improved, over the past few weeks or so (not taking into account the flooding). My trips back have been fine this year. I've seen fewer cancellations than before and many less severe delays, and Andrew Haines is certainly trying his best to turn things around.  I can also say that I don't personally agree with the fare strike as yes, it's illegal, and the government are equally, if not more to blame, not just FGW. AH also seems to be reversing the decline. So I won't be taking part in the 'strike' - but I will refuse to take the train that day (moreso to avoid angry, grumpy passengers and staff!)

Please everyone, try to take a balanced view.

I'm not arguing that vacman shouldn't have an opinion. I'm just trying to understand why he is opposed to something which if it successfully provokes action should make the front line FGW staff have an easier time.

Well your post came across that way IMO

Everything online can be interpreted in different ways because you're obviously unable to judge body language etc from a forum post.

I may not agree with Vacman but I would die for his right to say/post it!

People have no alternative and the railways should never have been privatised in the current form. How else do you suggest the public stand up to FGW? Writing petitions on the PM's website which always receive stock responses? You're acting as if we're taking a leaf out of the Argentinians' book and are rioting over a few cancellations. The majority of the rolling stock, current infrastructure and staff training was paid for by the tax payers of Great Britain. How is it fair that services we rely on to get to work on time are ran by profiteering bastards who crowd us all into clapped out, poorly maintained rolling stock and charge us ridiculous amounts for the privilege? As a member of FGW staff I thought you would be the first to sympathise seeing as if appropriate services were provided you and your colleagues would get a great deal less flack from the travelling public. If there was a law stating that you had to go church would you follow it? What about one where you had to hop around on one leg on a Thursday? Both are clearly unfair laws but should you follow them just because they are laws? The law isn't always right and the government are very selective about which ones they enforce. If the law was enforced to the letter banks wouldn't be able to overcharge customers for going overdrawn, gangs of chavs wouldn't terrorise hard working people and the world would  be a much better place. However you would regularly be shooting at welshmen with a crossbow for penetrating the city walls. The Cardiff to Portsmouth service would certainly become interesting!

So basicly your saying that having to pay for a rail journey is an "unfair" law? that can be compared to having to hop around on one leg on a thursday? don't talk crap, fare evasion is both fraud and theft and it is wrong in ANY circumstances.

... it may seem a little ironic for me to be following up with a suggestion that now that views have been aired and positions understood, we agreed to differ and move on.  We have a greater understanding of each other's positions, and that's no bad thing.  We have aired the arguments in public, and again that's good as it helps readers who have not posted to be informed about the various views represented here, and wider.

... but since when has the likes of the 'tabloid press' allowed the facts to get in the way of a good headline???  ;D

Just looking at MTLS WEBSITE and since when has FGW been running Japanese trains complete with Passengers to match?? in fact i think only 1 possibly 2 pictures on the site are actually of FGW Trains

Nah you will not bother because much of you protesters were Tory voters who wanted the railway privatised in the first place!!!!..............now you spend all your lives moaning at the wrong people!!

I rest my case

Genuine question for you, 12hoursunday, so dont bite my head off :

I notice from your profile that your website is listed as "rmt union." In the past the RMT has been very supportive of MTLS and their aims.

Are your views purely personal, or do they reflect official RMT policy?

By the way, dont take me asking as a criticism of the union or its views. I regularly include links to the RMT Bristol Rail Branch website (along with links to many other groups/organisations), as part of our attempts to provide a balanced cross-section of views.

Lee 
The postings I post are the views of myself however there have been others on here that I think feel the same or have similar views to mine Your right it what you say re the RMT and their association with MTLS however I am unsure if they have or would support the breaking of the law. Whether your the jumped little hoodie sneaking a ride from Oldfield Park to Keynsham or a group of grown up's frustrated over what has become of British Railways ( it ain't only happening in this neck of the woods you know) it is unlawful to a travel or attempt to travel on the railway network without buying a ticket. Doing so only puts futher pressure on the rail staff you say you support and feel sorry for.

MTLS should should take a long look at what they intend to do to try to make train companies change their minds or maybe even influence them into making changes into what they do now, they are acting in a  unprofessional and irresponsible manner by asking passengers to break the law on-mass. Someone may end up with egg on their chin, and it won't be Firstgroup!

Try doing a fares strike when travelling on an airline or a ship/ferry etc...........it just does not happen because it is a no ticket = no travel procedure.

FGW is not a charity so it cannot tolerate freeloaders travelling or protesting on its services, as it is not fair to other fare paying travellers either commuters, business or pleasure travellers.

Where was all this macho attitude, energy, aggression and protests when the railways were being privatised?????????.........not interest then were we?...........not even many MPs could be bothered to make a proper effort to attend the transport debates in parliment at the time the railways bill was being read.

The Aslef and RMT unions warned and protested at the process but were silenced by the government accused of scaremongering and blocking progress and investment.

why don't you action protestors, focus your energy and anger towards the government and BUY a ticket, travel to London and protest to MPs about the state of the UKs railway NOT just FGW company operator?

Nah you will not bother because much of you protesters were Tory voters who wanted the railway privatised in the first place!!!!..............now you spend all your lives moaning at the wrong people!!

I rest my case

Debate the issues and put your points across by all means, but bear in mind that several MTLS supporters are most certainly not Tories!

The forum software we uses here splits long subjects into pages of posts, so some comments I made earlier this morning have got loat back on the previous page.  I think they bear repeating here.


Your various views differ, strongly, on this. They have been stated several times over and I don't think you're going to change each other's opinions. So - even though it will leave the board a little quieter - let's move on to discuss other topics for the moment, eh?

Thanks!

-- Graham

Surely the solution is for the fare strikers to refuse politely to show a ticket, but give their correct name and address to any authorised ticket collector. That way when they are given a penalty fare, or unpaid fares notice for not having a ticket, instead of paying it, they can exercise their right to dispute it and remain within the law. Of course it may well then go to court, but if they do have a case, then they can debate it there.

Then let the lawyers on both sides debate the case, and let the courts deal with it rather than causing hassle for frontline staff or having riots on the platforms. No doubt the fare strike groups are aware and have researched all of the legal issues, and have appropriate people to defend their case, if members are taken to court.

A side effect being that, going down the this route would also mean the usual assorted bunch of ticketless miscreants and general human sewage who never pay and cause trouble for decent passengers and staff alike can't hide behind this 'political protest', as another excuse to bunk the train.

To quote from: http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/section9/chapter_d.html#_Toc44579902

"Fare Evasion
You will often have a choice between specific legislation relating to the form of transport, and proceedings under the Theft Act 1978, or Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981. <See The Theft Acts and Forgery & Counterfeiting, elsewhere in this guidance>.

Section 5 Regulation of Railways Act 1889 <Stones 7-7043> is usually used for offences of fare evasion on the railways for:

    * travelling/attempting to travel on a railway without having previously paid the fare and with intent to avoid payment thereof; or
    * having paid the fare for a certain distance, knowingly and wilfully proceeding by train beyond that distance without previously paying the additional fare for the additional distance and with intent to avoid payment thereof; or
    * having failed to pay the fare, giving in reply to a request from an officer of a railway company a false name and address.

Section 103(a) Railway Clauses Consolidation Act 1845 <Stones 7-7001> covers a person refusing to quit a carriage on arrival at the point to which he has paid his fare.

Both Section 5 and Section 103(a) are summary only offences. "Intent to avoid payment" in Section 5 does not mean a dishonest intent, but an intent to avoid payment of the sum actually due.

There are provisions in bye-laws which cover fare evasion, but in the vast majority of cases it will be appropriate to use the Section 5 offence.

Consider using the provisions of the Theft Act 1978, especially Sections 2 and 3, where there is evidence of premeditation, or persistence, or repeat offending, or large loss by the transport authority.

Where tickets have been altered or defaced consider a charge under the Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981."