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Title: New 20 miles per hour speed limits - on roads in Bristol, and elsewhere? Post by: Chris from Nailsea on October 05, 2014, 00:04:24 (http://www.drivingtesttips.biz/images/uk-20mph-speed-limit-sign.jpg)
As a delivery driver in south Bristol, in my day job, I have somewhat mixed feelings about these new speed limits. Firstly, I do fully agree with the need to reduce the number of incidents where the speed of any road vehicle is a contributory factor in any road traffic collision / incident. However, I also wonder whether the introduction of a blanket 20 mph speed restriction on most of the roads in south Bristol is the best way of achieving this. I drive a vehicle which is limited in speed to the speed limit on the road, if you see what I mean. The number of other vehicles behind me, clearly waiting for the merest chance of an opportunity to overtake me, is rather interesting. I even had a cyclist pull out to overtake me recently. ::) A couple of points from me, if I may, on this subject: Does my own observance of the new 20 mph restrictions on most of the roads in south Bristol cause other drivers to take a chance on overtaking me - which they would not otherwise do? Do my customers appreciate that, due to my driving at up to 20 mph rather than 30 mph on my way to deliver them, their goods will generally be delivered 33% later than they would otherwise have been? Title: Re: New 20 miles per hour speed limits - on roads in Bristol, and elsewhere? Post by: Timmer on October 05, 2014, 06:41:20 As a motorist I don't have an issue with 20mph limits on housing estates, around schools and accident black spots in a built up area. What I do take issue with is councils blanketing the whole area of a town or city with 20mph limits on roads that 20mph just isn't suited to and therefore ignored by most drivers.
Maybe it's just me but driving at 20mph isn't very easy over a long distance as you have to keep the car in low gear which isn't a natural way to drive both for the driver and vehicle. So yes Chris there could be a case where a driver is dutifully observing the 20mph speed limit on a wider road could be a contributing factor towards an accident caused by frustrated drivers attempting a dangerous overtaking manouvre. What amazes me is how little opposition there has been to bringing in so many 20mph zones in many towns and cities where at times it just looks like another attack on motorists from car hating lib dem councils. Of course these zones will never be reversed as whoever does try to will be accused of killing people by making roads more dangerous. Title: Re: New 20 miles per hour speed limits - on roads in Bristol, and elsewhere? Post by: John R on October 05, 2014, 09:59:38 (http://www.drivingtesttips.biz/images/uk-20mph-speed-limit-sign.jpg) Do my customers appreciate that, due to my driving at up to 20 mph rather than 30 mph on my way to deliver them, their goods will generally be delivered 33% later than they would otherwise have been? And has your employer changed the number of deliveries you're expected to do and/or the time it takes as a result? Title: Re: New 20 miles per hour speed limits - on roads in Bristol, and elsewhere? Post by: Red Squirrel on October 05, 2014, 11:04:08 Bet you can't guess what I think!
Couple of points:
Title: Re: New 20 miles per hour speed limits - on roads in Bristol, and elsewhere? Post by: Chris from Nailsea on October 06, 2014, 00:54:19 And has your employer changed the number of deliveries you're expected to do and/or the time it takes as a result? Ha ha ha. No. ::) Bet you can't guess what I think! Oh, I rather think I can. ;) I suspect my employer is rather more likely to take the 'squirrel view', and claim that "the average speed dropped from 19.4mph to 18.5mph", rather than accepting that my delivery van's restricted speed has been reduced from 30mph to 20mph. ::) These limits apply to cyclists as much as they do to other road users. The fact that when travelling at 20mph it is possible for you to be overtaken by a reckless cyclist is not an argument against 20mph limits, and neither is the fact that a reckless motorist may overtake you. I never said it was. ;D Title: Re: New 20 miles per hour speed limits - on roads in Bristol, and elsewhere? Post by: Red Squirrel on October 06, 2014, 09:16:11 Interested to know how your speed limity-thing works, Chris - is it some combination of GPS/WiFi location sensing linked to a digital map of speed limits?
I take your point that if a vehicle is restricted to 20mph, then that is likely to bring its average speed below the 18.5mph I mentioned. Title: Re: New 20 miles per hour speed limits - on roads in Bristol, and elsewhere? Post by: Red Squirrel on October 14, 2014, 13:47:22 Quote From Bristol 24/7: Tories to force debate on 20mph speed limits Conservative councillors in Bristol are to force through a debate on the introduction of 20mph speed limits across Bristol. A 'golden motion' calling on the mayor George Ferguson to stop the rollout while a "proper evaluation" of how useful the schemes are has been proposed. The debate is guaranteed to go ahead and voted on at full council on November 11. See full report: http://bristol247.co.uk/channel/news-comment/daily/transport/tories-to-force-debate-on-20mph-speed-limits Title: Re: New 20 miles per hour speed limits - on roads in Bristol, and elsewhere? Post by: Tim on October 16, 2014, 15:55:37 Interesting discussion. We have had a 20 limit on our road in Bath (which is a bit of a narrow rat run at peak times) for about a year now and I would say that it makes no difference to traffic speed. The road is too windy to break the previous limit and everyone drives at between 20 and 30 as they always have. It does seem to have caused a minority of drivers (usually suited gents in German cars and school running mothers in huge people carriers I have to say - ie those who do the same journey every day), to drive aggressively and impatiently though.
I can well believe that a 0.9 mph average speed drop is all that has been achieved. But I am sceptical as to whether the road is actually safer. What is needed IMHO is a few cops handing out tickets and some bollards to stop idiots driving on the pavement (oh how I would love to install some one night just to watch people pranging their cars on them the following morning whilst driving where they shouldn't be). They would be more effective than a 20 limit. Title: Re: New 20 miles per hour speed limits - on roads in Bristol, and elsewhere? Post by: Red Squirrel on October 16, 2014, 17:13:34 I can well believe that a 0.9 mph average speed drop is all that has been achieved. The reduction in average speed is a side-effect of these limits - their main objective is to reduce the peak speed, not the average speed. According to the Portsmouth study, they've been very effective in achieving this. It does seem to have caused a minority of drivers...to drive aggressively and impatiently though. I agree. Since these limits came into force I have on two occasions been overtaken by vehicles which I would characterise as being driven aggesively and unsafely. I don't think the fact that some people drive badly is a reason to oppose lower speed limits, though; stricter penalties and driving bans for offenders would seem a better approach to me. Title: Re: New 20 miles per hour speed limits - on roads in Bristol, and elsewhere? Post by: Tim on October 16, 2014, 17:32:38 I don't think the fact that some people drive badly is a reason to oppose lower speed limits, though; stricter penalties and driving bans for offenders would seem a better approach to me. Agree completely. And I support 20 zones in residential areas. But we must not see them as a panacea. We need better traffic policing. Title: Re: New 20 miles per hour speed limits - on roads in Bristol, and elsewhere? Post by: Chris from Nailsea on October 16, 2014, 17:54:10 Interested to know how your speed limity-thing works, Chris - is it some combination of GPS/WiFi location sensing linked to a digital map of speed limits? It is actually nothing to do with any GPS / WiFi location sensing. In fact, our on-board satellite navigation equipment software (updated as recently as September 2014) still cheerfully informs me that the speed limit on most of the 'main roads' in south Bristol is 40mph, or 30mph. Err ... no, actually. Immediately on leaving the A370 on the slip road inbound at Ashton, for example, the road signs warn me that I am entering a 20mph zone. So I engage the rather basic vehicle speed limiter (kindly provided as standard by Mercedes in many of their Sprinter vans) which then restricts my progress to a maximum of 20mph, within that whole zone. Title: Re: New 20 miles per hour speed limits - on roads in Bristol, and elsewhere? Post by: onthecushions on October 16, 2014, 18:23:40 I asked a Reading Councillor about this. He said that there were very few serious pedestrian accidents on Reading suburban roads, with the exception of King's Road (the A4/A329 Eastward from Reading) where there were frequent (yearly or so) fatalities. 20mph is reasonable on estate roads - it's hard to go faster. On main town approach roads 20mph should reasonably be limited to where there is material conflict between vehicles and pedestrians, like King's Road Reading, (because of schools and the Tech. Coll.) as evidenced by the butchers' bill. OTC Title: Re: New 20 miles per hour speed limits - on roads in Bristol, and elsewhere? Post by: Brucey on October 16, 2014, 20:18:35 The road I currently live on had a 20mph speed limit implemented a few months ago. It just appeared one day, whilst I was at work. There was no information given to residents, except through the local newspaper that I don't buy and the council website that I don't read unless I need to contact them.
It doesn't appear to make much different. Most people still drive around 25mph on clear stretches then slow down for parked vehicles, as they would have done previously. Title: Re: New 20 miles per hour speed limits - on roads in Bristol, and elsewhere? Post by: Red Squirrel on May 10, 2016, 10:15:31 Bristol now has a Labour Mayor and a Labour-run council. Interesting times... Mayor Marvin says he will:
Quote Ask all councillors to work with their Neighbourhood Partnerships to undertake a review of RPZs and 20mph zones in their areas and make recommendations on how they can be made to work. Funny old game, dog-whistle politics. I think what he means is: Quote I won't make any changes to RPZs and 20mph zones, but I am very happy to take the votes of people who think I should. Title: Re: New 20 miles per hour speed limits - on roads in Bristol, and elsewhere? Post by: Bmblbzzz on May 10, 2016, 15:39:00 Probably. At least with RPZs as they should, at least in theory, start to bring in money, rolling them back would prove costly. Removing the 20mph zones would also have to paid for, but would not lead to a loss of income; probably most likely is that they will simply not be extended.
Title: Re: New 20 miles per hour speed limits - on roads in Bristol, and elsewhere? Post by: Red Squirrel on May 10, 2016, 16:53:00 RPZs should, at least in theory, be revenue-neutral.
Be interesting to see how many people now living in them want them rolled back. Personally I'm disappointed that they won't now be extended into my area - but that's democracy, I suppose! It'll also be interesting to see how many people ask to have the speed limit raised on their street... or what the reaction would be the first time a pedestrian or cyclist is killed in a street where the speed limit has been raised. Title: Re: New 20 miles per hour speed limits - on roads in Bristol, and elsewhere? Post by: Bmblbzzz on May 10, 2016, 17:10:41 I thought Red Squirrelville was Taunton or Clevedon or somewhere Somerset way? Mind you, I can't recall what led me to think that.
Anyway, RPZs should be revenue neutral: yes, but there are bound to be costs incurred in start up which won't be recouped until they've been running a while. Not that I've any idea how long, mind. After that I wouldn't be surprised if they could become revenue-generating in a minor way. Obviously that's going to depend on what permit prices are set at. Title: Re: New 20 miles per hour speed limits - on roads in Bristol, and elsewhere? Post by: rower40 on May 12, 2016, 14:52:02 When I first heard the road safety phrase "20's Plenty", I thought it referred to pints. 8) (hic)
Title: Re: New 20 miles per hour speed limits - on roads in Bristol, and elsewhere? Post by: grahame on May 12, 2016, 16:54:29 When I first heard the road safety phrase "20's Plenty", I thought it referred to pints. 8) (hic) I thought it referred to bicycles on a 153 Title: Re: New 20 miles per hour speed limits - on roads in Bristol, and elsewhere? Post by: Red Squirrel on May 12, 2016, 20:47:55 I thought Red Squirrelville was Taunton or Clevedon or somewhere Somerset way? Mind you, I can't recall what led me to think that. Well for the record I live a shortish stroll from MTP - up the steps, not down, else I'd be in the MR RPZ. Title: Re: New 20 miles per hour speed limits - on roads in Bristol, and elsewhere? Post by: Red Squirrel on May 29, 2019, 14:30:49 Quote No major changes needed after Bristol's 20mph limit review Source: Bristol City Council (https://news.bristol.gov.uk/news/no-major-changes-needed-after-bristols-20mph-limit-review)Huge public consultation response supported no change to city's 20mph limit A major review of Bristol’s 20mph speed limit has determined that no significant changes need to be made to the measures introduced throughout the city between 2012 and 2015. The thorough review – part of a Mayoral mandate to consider whether there should be an increase in speed limits from 20mph to 30 mph, or a decrease from 30mph to 20 mph - identified minor adjustments needed on a small number of roads to support compliance with the limit, which was introduced to improve active travel, street safety and health and well being for citizens. One of the largest responses to a public consultation in Bristol saw almost 3,500 replies between June and August of last year. When commenting on individual roads, the majority of feedback was for no change and the consultation highlighted significant public and stakeholder support for retaining the limit in residential areas and near schools, with 95% agreeing with 20mph limits by schools, 74% on residential roads and 44% on main roads. Stakeholders including the police, Bristol Cycling Campaign, First Group, Road Peace and schools also overwhelmingly backed the retention of the 20mph limit. Cabinet member for Transport, Cllr Kye Dudd, said: “The 20mph review was an essential part of the One City Plan 2040 target of zero people killed or seriously injured due to avoidable incidents on Bristol’s roads. “The overall outcomes of the project were to ensure reduced speed limits continue to help improve active travel and subsequently health and wellbeing for citizens and make streets safer for all road users as part of our wider approach to transport policy in Bristol. “The consultation carried out last summer, with councillors playing an active role, received one of the highest levels of response from the public, with officers taking substantial time and care taken to process and analyse the information and data to come out of it.’’ A report into the 20mph review and summary of the consultation report are available now at www.bristol20mph.co.uk/find-out-more/research-and-monitoring/ For details of the UWE BRITE report see http://eprints.uwe.ac.uk/34851/7/BRITE%20Bristol%2020mph%20limit%20evaluation%20report_20July18update.pdf Title: Re: New 20 miles per hour speed limits - on roads in Bristol, and elsewhere? Post by: Timmer on May 29, 2019, 16:35:50 I see the City of London is planning to introduce a 15mph limit.
https://news.cityoflondon.gov.uk/city-of-london-is-set-to-become-the-uks-first-15mph-region Quote The City of London Corporation’s most senior decision-making body, the Court of Common Council, has voted to make the Square Mile the first area in the UK with a 15mph speed limit, subject to government approval. The decision follows a public consultation into 54 proposals unveiled by the City Corporation last year, which together sets a 25-year framework for its first long-term Transport Strategy. The plans have been developed to support the changing working, living and commuting habits across London. City Corporation monitoring reveals that 90% of all journeys made on the City’s streets are partially or entirely walked. The new Strategy will prioritise the needs of people walking when delivering changes to streets, and make the most efficient use of street space by working to reduce motor traffic by 25% by 2030, and by 50% by 2044. Data also shows that cycling has increased by 292% since 1999, while the number of vehicles using the Square Mile’s streets has halved in the last 20 years. The Strategy will see the City Corporation enhancing its cycling offer, launching a new cycling network and improving the quality and accessibility of cycle hire facilities. And as hosts of the London Walking and Cycling Conference, taking place today in partnership with Hackney Council, where the Mayor of London is a keynote speaker - the City Corporation will announce that two operators, Freebike (electric bikes) and Beryl, will begin a six-month trial for dockless cycle hire in the Square Mile. The new Transport Strategy will also improve air quality by proposing the UK’s first large scale Zero Emission Zone to cover central London, after local zero emission zones are introduced covering the City Cluster and Barbican and Golden Lane. Title: Re: New 20 miles per hour speed limits - on roads in Bristol, and elsewhere? Post by: martyjon on May 29, 2019, 17:29:17 Now let's make Bristol the nations 2nd Congestion Charging Zone City.
:-X :-X :-X :-X Title: Re: New 20 miles per hour speed limits - on roads in Bristol, and elsewhere? Post by: Robin Summerhill on May 29, 2019, 20:29:22
Quote from: Red Squirrel
Quite. During the course of the Speed Limit Review we had a few years ago, all proposed limit increases were fought tooth and nail, whilst all the decreases generally went through "on the nod." There is also the issue that people local to an area often get very shirty when caught speeding themselves. Some seem to take the view that the limit is only there for "outsiders" to adhere to. The landlady in a pub I used many years ago was once caught exceeding a 30 limit within a mile of her boozer and told us that when she got "assertive" with the PC and asked "Why aren't you out catching criminals?" she got the reply "I am Madam - that's why I stopped you!" Most annoyed about that, she was... Quote from: Red Squirrel
I am sorry but you are wrong here. Speed limits apply to motorised vehicles only. Anyone without a motor vehicle, be they a cyclist, Olympic sprinter, pedestrian, or someone pushing a really really well-oiled wheelbarrow, can go as fast as they damn well like :) https://www.slatergordon.co.uk/media-centre/blog/2015/06/can-cyclists-break-the-speed-limit-or-does-the-law-only-apply-to-motorists/ https://www.google.co.uk/search?source=hp&ei=J9nuXMjgJ4y0kwW9q7CoBA&q=speed+limits+and+cyclists&oq=speed+limits+and+cy&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0i22i30l8.1984.15765..19065...3.0..0.72.1331.23......0....1..gws-wiz.....0..0i131j0j0i10j0i13.qGYV08BuY8M http://www.astounding.org.uk/ian/cyclelaw/speed_limits.html Title: Re: New 20 miles per hour speed limits - on roads in Bristol, and elsewhere? Post by: Red Squirrel on May 29, 2019, 22:18:53 Speed limits apply to motorised vehicles only. I stand corrected! But I note that a cyclist can be prosecuted for 'cycling furiously' if they go too quickly, and exceeding the speed limit (even though it does not specifically apply) would presumably be considered evidence of such an offence. I don't think there is a corresponding offence for wheelbarrow-pushers, though. Title: Re: New 20 miles per hour speed limits - on roads in Bristol, and elsewhere? Post by: CyclingSid on May 30, 2019, 07:46:58 15 mph speed limit in City of London probably won't make a lot of difference (except to the blood pressure of a minority) as the average speed is below that.
Title: Re: New 20 miles per hour speed limits - on roads in Bristol, and elsewhere? Post by: Robin Summerhill on May 30, 2019, 09:42:09 Quote from: Red Squirrel Quote from: Robin Summerhill Speed limits apply to motorised vehicles only. I stand corrected! But I note that a cyclist can be prosecuted for 'cycling furiously' if they go too quickly, and exceeding the speed limit (even though it does not specifically apply) would presumably be considered evidence of such an offence. I don't think there is a corresponding offence for wheelbarrow-pushers, though. The offence is actually "wanton and furious driving" and is contained in the Offences Against the Person Act 1861. The terms "wanton" and "furious" may not be understood to mean exactly the same thing in 2019 as they did in 1861, but the summary of the Act (see link below) clearly states that injury needs to be caused to a third party for an offence to have been committed. The mere act of going faster in miles per hour than a number in a red ring on a pole would not constitute an offence under the Act. It would therefore follow, however, that if you ploughed into someone on your bike and broke their leg when doing 10mph you would be potentially committing an offence, but belting past them at 40mph and not hitting them would not. If you Google "wanton and furious cycling" you will come across a few (but not many) prosecutions of cyclists under this Act, but in all cases injury was caused to someone. And yes, it could equally apply to someone "wanton and furiously" pushing a wheelbarrow ;D http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/24-25/100/section/35 Title: Re: New 20 miles per hour speed limits - on roads in Bristol, and elsewhere? Post by: Robin Summerhill on May 30, 2019, 10:50:24 Thinking about this a bit more (whilst buying a stock of Marston's Old Empire" in Morrison's ;) ) I got home and looked up the definition of "wanton." It says: "1. (of a cruel or violent action) deliberate and unprovoked. synonyms: deliberate, wilful, malicious, malevolent, spiteful, vicious, wicked, evil, cruel"
"Furious" in the 1860s would be more likely to refer to a state of mind. The link for that word to include "speed" may have come along rather later in history. The above may give some insight into what the legislators had in mind when they passed this piece of legislation just after Prince Albert died, and how the words "wanton" and "furious" were interpreted at the time. Title: Re: New 20 miles per hour speed limits - on roads in Bristol, and elsewhere? Post by: Red Squirrel on May 30, 2019, 11:19:31 I will do my best to digest this new information whilst replenishing my stock of Pukka Blackcurrant Beauty in Scoopaway...
Title: Re: New 20 miles per hour speed limits - on roads in Bristol, and elsewhere? Post by: didcotdean on May 30, 2019, 11:24:44 Around the time the Act was passed, 134 persons had been killed, and 1,827 persons maimed by carriages in the previous 26 months in London alone. Under the prevailing law the maximum punishment was a fine of 40 shillings; the Act increased this to 2 years in prison. The Act was criticised for including the "wanton or furious driving" clause by those who wanted it to apply to all incidents without having to provide evidence as to the actions or motivation of the driver, and that compensation for the victim would still require a separate civil case, which the "poor, or needy, or ignorant" would be unable to do.
Title: Re: New 20 miles per hour speed limits - on roads in Bristol, and elsewhere? Post by: eightonedee on May 30, 2019, 22:13:23 Quote "Furious" in the 1860s would be more likely to refer to a state of mind. The link for that word to include "speed" may have come along rather later in history. This intrigued me as its use to mean energetic, wild or violent as in "fast and furious" was I thought established, if not archaic - and Google has revealed that Rabbie Burns used the expression in "Tam O'Shanter" in 1793 in the line - "The mirth and fun grew fast and furious" So I think it clear means recklessly fast. And I expect that the endorphin rush of the offending cyclists is the same as those of the dancers responding to the piper's music in Burns' poem. Title: Re: New 20 miles per hour speed limits - on roads in Bristol, and elsewhere? Post by: Red Squirrel on June 05, 2019, 21:14:55 Quote STOKE LODGE & STOKE GIFFORD - Stoke Lane and Little Stoke Lane Traffic Calming & 20mph Zone Background Funding has been made available for a number of schemes that will assist walking and cycling to schools. The funding is supporting a proposal for additional traffic calming measures on Stoke Lane and Little Stoke Lane that will help to reduce speeds and improve road safety particularly for school children walking from Patchway Community School, Holy Family School, St Chads Patchway CE Primary School, Stoke Lodge Infants & Junior Schools and Little Stoke School Primary. Stoke Lane is currently subject to a 30mph road with some traffic calming features. Little Stoke Road is mostly subject to a 20mph speed limit with a small section of 30mph with traffic calming features already installed near the school. Purpose of the scheme The purpose of the scheme is to reduce speeds on Stoke Lane, Little Stoke Lane and various side roads with the introduction of a 20mph zone by the use of traffic calming measures. This page is printed from the "Coffee Shop" forum at http://gwr.passenger.chat which is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway. Views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that content provided contravenes our posting rules ( see http://railcustomer.info/1761 ). The forum is hosted by Well House Consultants - http://www.wellho.net |