Great Western Coffee Shop

I'm on the 1806 London Paddington to Frome service which tonight is running in reverse formation

On the slow down to Twyford the TM announced that because of the service being busy it would not be possible for him to provide access to the TGS.

At this point there were puzzled looks in my carriage (and I suspect others) because no explanation was given as to what a TGS is (although I couldn't resist a Google to know what it stood for having guessed it was where the bikes were kept).

So this got me thinking - if I had a bicycle what would I be expected to do ?

Just curious :)

Get off at Reading and cycle home?  :P ;) ;D

I do hope the TM knew there were no cyclists due to disembark at Twyford.

He didn't :)

TGS is in our list on the Coffee Shop forum acronyms/abbreviations page (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/acronyms.html) - link in the middle of the line of links at the top of this page.  ;)

Thanks CfN - I had guessed it old be there but at the time of interest I didn't have a very good signal and a quick google search required less bandwidth

I'm more curious and confused as to why this was an issue regardless of how busy it was  ???

Superguard the reason given (bearing in mind the TGS was at the rear in direction travel) was that the TM was unable to make it to the front of the train (which was first class).

I'm sure there was some sort of logic there but I couldn't see it!

Am I right in thinking that Twyford can only fully accommodate 2+7?

When sets are in usual formation with 1st Class at the rear, the last coach is not fully platformed and the TM uses SDO from the preceding coach.

With the set in question having Standard toward the rear, the TGS (Coach A) would have not been fully platformed so the TM would not have been able to access the Cycle stowage area from the platform.

If that's the case then you'd think this could have been communicated at Paddington to any cyclist looking to alight at Twyford.

It was a tad confusing to say the least. Apart from the curiosity it caused I didn't take much notice as (a) I didn't have a bike and (b) I wasn't getting off at Twyford

I think the TM (on this rare occasion) could have been clearer with his announcements - at one point some passengers thought they could only leave the train (at Theale) from coach E and no other coaches

But usually if the set is in reverse formation then the stopping position is changed in order that the TGS is still available?

Surely the driver stops at the 'HST 2+8' board regardless of the formation of the 8 coaches.  ???

Not necessarily - at Charlbury, and I believe at most locations on the Cotswold Line, the driver stops with standard class on the platform even if the train is in reverse formation. (Indeed, the 09.07 today was in reverse formation, and we still managed to get our bikes on, just at the London end of the platform rather than the Hereford end.)

True.

At any station with less than space for a full 8 coaches there are two stop boards, one for normal and one for reverse direction. This is what I'd expect at Twyford if it can only take 7 coaches. Although in that situation there would only be the one 2+7 stop board, as the train can then be fully accommodated.

There is an odd situation at slough where you can put your bike in the TSG heading towards reading but you have to use a vestibule if you are coming from reading as the TSG is not platformed. I suspect this has caught a few people out who are not familiar it.

I belive the HST's always stop in the same place as there is a signal at the end of the platform.

I've never noticed these normal and reversed stop boards at a Thatcham station which I believe only has enough space for 5 cars. When the westbound trains are running in reverse (first class at front, TGS at rear) the drivers cab is way beyond the signal.

Out of interest in a case such as this does the responsibility for checking the signal aspect  lay with the TM?

The TGS should always be platformed, but there is the odd location where signals/viaducts/tunnels etc. can prevent HSTs stopping properly if they are in reverse formation.

Twyford down main platform is fine (isn't that where that train usually stops?), but the down relief platform, though plenty long enough, has a signal half-way down it, so that would cause problems if in reverse formation for a 2+8. Perhaps there was a platform swap from its usual platform which caught the TM out, so he hadn't checked for Twyford bikes at Paddington?  But, as Super Guard says, the business of the train shouldn't affect that - anyway he doesn't exactly sound like one of our finest!

As far as I recall we arrived at the normal platform (down main?) so I really don't know what happened.

I'm being kind here by saying there were some issues we weren't aware of.

Officially, in the Timetable Planning Rules, the lengths in m are:

Twyford	5 (Bay)	110	Top of ramp to stop blocks
Twyford ML	1 (Down Main Line)	172
Twyford ML	2 (Up Main Line)	182
Twyford RL	3 (Down Relief Line)	244
Twyford RL	4 (Up Relief Line)	250
Twyford RL	4 (Up Relief Line)	180	Signal TR214 to Top of ramp (London end)

The Sectional Appendix agrees (with the shorter P4). Presumably for Up trains the whole platform is available.

Now 8x23 m is 184 m, so Twyford is a problem for the few HSTs that stop at P1. It is also a bit of an odd man out in having longer platforms on the Relief Lines than on the Mains.

You might imagine that P1 at least would have been extended by now, or both will be soon for longer trains. But then, the general idea for post-Reading, post-IEP, and post-electrification is that there is no scope for stopping trains on the Mains between Paddington and Reading, so IEPs will never need to stop here.

The "peak-buster" 12-car EMUs that have been mentioned in official sources, and are an inherent part of the IEP capacity increase, have never become official enough to trigger plans for longer platforms. When this happens, it will be the Relief Line platforms at Slough, Maidenhead, and maybe even Twyford that need lengthening for them (if these are 12x23 m rather than 12x20 m).

As has been mentioned there are 2+8 and 2+7 HST stop boards for when a train has first class leading.  If there was a signal on the end of the platform then fair enough you have the risk if it's red/on.  However, this isn't the case at Twyford DM, so i'm still confused why this was an issue, unless there happened not to be a 2+7/8 board - but having said that, the TM can be between the front 2 coaches and buzz the driver '1' to stop at the appropriate moment, if a clear understanding was reached prior to leaving Paddington.

Hopefully more to it in this case.

There are HST stop boards on both the Down Main and Down Relief at Twyford

This is the 2+7 on the Down Main (with a train approaching on the Up Main)

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/twy1.jpg)

Not quite so clear in this view of the Down Relief - but the 2+7 board is on the post just after signal TR114 (mentioned by Industry Insider earlier.

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/twy2.jpg)

I wonder if this had something to do with the service in question actually being the 18:06 to Frome.

Regardless of the formation, the HST service to Frome always terminates with the rear coaches 4 coaches aligned to the platform. This is because of the Signal at the London End being in close proximity to the platform. But more crucially the issue of the Power Car otherwise stopping on a Bridge making it impossible or rather dangerous for the driver to change ends. At Frome assuming normal formation, the TGS is always way off the platform with passengers invited to sit in First Class beyond Westbury. Some TMs insist on this to prevent someone trying to open a locked door and the issue of it being stuck on the catch.

This service used to be operated by a Class 180 before FGW got rid of them. In that case a Class 180 could comfortably fit on the platform at Frome. A HST does not fit by any stretch of the imagination so SDO is used.

Confusingly the 15:55 service to London Paddington from Frome (Starts Taunton) does stop with the Power Car on the bridge. This service was/is always operated by a HST. The down call at Frome (PAD - Taunton service) has since been removed though! ??? :-\ :-X

This is Frome... We have to be different and more awkward than everywhere else apparently ;D :P :D

Well yes, that would be applicable for Frome, but we are discussing approaching Twyford  ???

Returning to Twyford, if it was agreed with all the staff concerned beforehand, is there the facility to pull up at the normal place with the TGS off the end, everyone gets off, doors locked and then the train moved forward so the TGS is by the platform and any bikes unloaded.  Would obviously add to dwell times when paths are at a premium on the Down Main at Twyford but a possible workaround for the odd occasion when the train is in reverse formation?

Yes. Which is why I mentioned it specifically for the 18:06. My thoughts were an arrangement by Driver and TM for ease of consistency so the TM only need be in roughly the same place each time. The 18:06 calls at a fair number of stations with short platforms. So for the sake of the TM and passengers sanity. It could well have been easier.

With the TGS off the platform at Frome anyway assuming normal formation, It also had me wondering if the service would take bikes considering some of the other short platforms the service calls at.

Many thanks to all who replied.

I remembered to check this morning at Charlbury, and there's only the standard 2+7 and 2+8 stop boards; there's no extra boards for trains running in reverse.

(Incidentally, why is it that there aren't stop-boards for the 180s at Cotswold Line stations? Is there an in-cab display or something?)

At Charlbury, the 2+7/8 boards at the London end of the station are the normal formation stop boards (reverse formation trains stop with the power car just off the platform end ramps, and at the Worcester end of the station the 2+7/8 boards are for trains in reverse (in this case normal formation trains stop with the power car just off the platform end ramps).

There are no stop boards for Class 180s because they always stop with the cab on the platform - their SDO can only be used in one direction from the cab backwards, so you couldn't for example open the rear three coaches only.  Doesn't usually cause too many problems as they're shorter in length of course.

I'm told that it's not uncommon for drivers to stop at the HST boards regardless of whether they are running a set in reverse formation. In such a situation the TM can give them '6' on the buzzer to draw forward as necessary.

I think there's confusion with reverse formation and stop-board usage.

The 2+7/2+8 HST stop-boards are provided where the HST will not fully fit on a platform AND first class is leading.  Heading towards London this is correct formation trains, heading away from London, this is when trains are in reverse formation.

The purpose of the stop boards is to always platform the TGS.  Where a TGS is leading, the driver will either pull the front power car off the platform, or if long enough will just stop at the end of the platform.

BNM, i'm totally confused by your statement because if a driver stops at these stop boards with the TGS leading then the TGS is already off the end of the platform and no amount of drawing platform will re-platform the TGS.  If the TGS is trailing, then stopping at these boards will have TGS platformed anyway.

The only time in several years of being a TM I have ever known a HST not platform the TGS was when working with a Paddington driver who personally would not pass a signal (even if proceed aspect) at Thatcham and Bedwyn going West and first class was leading.

*There may be a local instruction applicable for Cotswold/Hereford/Wales services which are routes I never signed, but not platforming the TGS is simply not SOP.

Yes, there's a few of them on the Cotswold Line which (as usual) has to be a little awkward!  At Worcester Foregate Street the viaduct at the end of the platform means that trains must stop at the end of the platform regardless of formation.  The same thing happens at Moreton-In-Marsh (down direction) and Evesham (up direction) because of signals.  They're section signals which is presumably why no alternative stop boards are positioned off of the platform.  Also, not an official instruction, but I know that some guards like the front coaches on the platform at Shipton regardless of the formation as the curvature of the track means that should the driver/guard comms fail it would be virtually impossible to despatch with a flag/light.

To help to clarify the Twyford issue.......

A correct formation of a HST i.e. the right way round is first class always leading to London/the TGS always heading west.  If at Twyford the train is in the correct formation on the down main the driver will stop with the power car off the down main platform.  So, the TGS (coach A) is platformed.  However, if the train is in the wrong formation (in reverse as the crew call it) the first class will be at the front of the train heading west.  The driver will stop at either the 2+7 or the 2+8 boards.  Maybe on this occasion a driver forgot the formation of his train which was in the reverse formation i.e. first class at the front, he should have stopped at the 2+7 or 2+8 boards but only ran the power car off instead, the train manager could have come to a clear understanding with the driver before the doors were released and gave him six on the buzzer to draw forward to the  appropriate stop board.  This, at the rear of the train and the london end of the down main platform the TGS, coach A, would have been platformed. 


I notice there was mention of Thatcham and Bedwyn. 

Thatcham. If the train is in the correct formation leaving london, the driver at Thatcham could if he wished take the power car off the platform at Thatcham in the down direction and stop just on the level crossing.  The signal  would not go back to red and the TGS coach A will be platformed Some drivers do insist on stopping at the signal when it is clear as they do not know it will not go back to red as the track circuit for this signal is past the level crossing.  If the signal is red when the train approaches and does not clear the driver has no other option than to stop at the signal.

Bedwyn.  Down direction - no matter what formation the train is in the power car must stop before the end of the platform where the signal is because the terminating Bedwyn services (turbos) shunt into the sidings and the cross over for this movement is just beyond the signal.  Bedwyn does not have an overlap.

Finally, the cotswolds......

Hereford - The whole train can be platformed regardless of formation and there are no unusual signals.

Ledbury, Colwall, Great Malvern, Malvern Link - The train in correct formation i.e. first class leading to London, the driver will stop at the relevant 2+7/2+8 board.  If the train is in the wrong formation the power car will be ran off the platform.  The same applies in the down direction.

Forgot Street - In the up direction, no matter what formation the train must stop at the 2+7/2+8 board because if the train was in reverse the rear would be over the viaduct if it stopped with the power car just off the platform.  In the down direction, if the train is in reverse you must stop on the platform where the cafe is just before the viaduct.  If the train is in the correct formation then the driver can run the power car only onto the viaduct thus the TGS will be platformed.

Shrub Hill - Nothing unusual - whole train on platform and no unique signals except some of them are on the wrong side of the tracks.

Pershore - up direction in correct formation 2+7/2+8 boards and in reverse the power car off the platform.  Down direction the power car off the platform if correct formation and  2+7/2+8 if in reverse.

Honeybourne - because this is a new platform in the up direction there is now a HST stop board for trains in reverse formation and 2+7/2+8  for train in correct formation.  However, if the driver stops at honeybourne in reverse formation at the new HST stop board, because this board has been put in the wrong place, the TGS van doors are off the platform.  In the down direction and normal formation leaving London, the power car is off the platform and TGS is platformed.  In reverse formation, 2+7/2+8.

Evesham - Because there is no  longer token working on the Cotswolds line, there is a HST stop marker where the old token hut is located.  Correct or reverse formation  the train stops at the HST stop board.  If the train is in the correct formation and bikes have to be loaded/unloaded at Evesham, the driver on receiving six would have to draw forward until he receives one on the buzzer to stop thus the TGS van doors are now platformed.  Same rules apply in the down direction.

Moreton in the Marsh - Correct formation in the up direction, 2+7/2+8 boards.   In reverse, power car off the platform.   This is now allowed as the track is doubled.  Down direction, driver stops at the end of the platform regardless.

Kingham, Shipton, Ascot under Wychwood, Charlbury, Finstock, Combe and Hanborough - Up direction correct formation 2+7/2+8 and wrong formation, power car off the platform.  Down direction is exactly the same. 

Oxford - all train on platform no unique signal issue

I hope this clears up any confusion anyone may have had on this matter.  I know, because the other week I got a special stop order to stop at all stations to oxford from Hereford and I was in reverse (i.e. if you haven't got the hang of it yet, TGS going to London)

Wow - thanks for that very comprehensive response flyingscotsman.

On the specific occasion I started this post with the TM made the announcement about the TGS not being platformed about 5 minutes before we pulled into Twyford. So on the basis the driver makes the decision about the stooping point (is this a correct assumption?) he must have either communicated this to the TM on departure from Paddington or en route.

Agreed - wow!


Can I ask about the arrangements at Foregate St? In the down direction, the train will normally stop with the power car off the end of the platform. But in reverse formation, it'll stop with the power car on the end of the platform. Why is there this subtle difference?

Thank-you to Super Guard and FlyingScotsman for very comprehensive answers.  One question though regarding Tilehurst on the Up Relief. There is a signal right at the end of the platform and an 'S' board - as in 'All Stock Stop Here'.  There are no HST+7 or HST+8 boards on this line - Platform 4.  In normal formation with first class at the front the TGS will always be off platform.  Sectional Appendix gives a platform length of 153m (same as Cholsey with its HST+7 and 8 boards).  I have platformed on this route on the only HST stopping service per day on many occations and cannot see how a bicycle could ever be loaded or unloaded in normal service.

One day I do remember the power car just ran past the clear aspect on the Up signal and returned it to red.. I then had the sight of a train being dispatched with most of it (including me - just) in rear of a red signal. As a heritage railway dispatcher and signalman this was a little discomforting.

I know there are 2+7/8 stop-boards at Thatcham which are the other side of the level crossing, and i'm 99% sure there are also boards at Bedwyn after the signal, so why would they be provided if they are not to be used?

As another example, Exeter St. Thomas on the Up Main has a platform signal which also has no over-lap, yet drivers stop at the stop-boards after the signal and the signal of course will revert to danger -- TM's have to check as the train arrives the signal is proceed before the driver passes it, as the signal will be red when dispatching (train of course in next section).

Interestingly I had a conversation with a driver comp manager from Paddington yesterday, who would expect drivers to stop at the boards at Thatcham and Bedwyn if first class is leading and signal is clear - however if a clear understanding is reached to differ from this, then that's up to the crew.

Either way, there is no signal before the stop boards involved in the Twyford scenario, so i'm still at a complete loss as to why this happened - especially as the TM knew 5 mins prior to arrival.

Was it literally because the train was busy to reach the relevant SDO panel? Assuming 7 cars are platformed, it might just about be possible to stop without SDO if the only door not platformed is the guard's door in the TGS. Would this be permissible if agreed by the crew, or would they be expected to find a way to use SDO as normal?

Sounds to me that because the train was busy the TM wasn't able to reach the panel at the front of the train to allow the TGS to be platformed, bear in mind he/she needs to be at the rear to dispatch at PAD.  So the TM and driver probably agreed at some point to leave the TGS out as it's easier to get to the front of A or rear of B rather than the opposite end of the train. 

And I want to think that the TM knew perfectly well that none of the cycles on board was for TWY?