Great Western Coffee Shop

Journey by Journey => London to Reading => Topic started by: John R on November 18, 2014, 12:01:43 pm



Title: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: John R on November 18, 2014, 12:01:43 pm
The option for 108 vehicles on the Bombardier order for 387 stock has been exercised today, with them forming the new Gatwick Express fleet.  So any thought that this could have been used to provide services for the Thames Valley has been dashed.  Though I guess there is still the possibility that the first tranche under the option could head our way once the Thameslink stock is in service. With this order commencing delivery in Dec 16, it's clear that any new build is very unlikely to be in service by the time the wires go live given the lead time for a new tender.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on November 18, 2014, 12:42:50 pm
The 387/1s are supposed to become available during the latter part of 2016 now don't they, as 700s appear in service from the early part of 2016?  I read somewhere that by the end of 2016 there should be one 700 per week arriving, and they only need about 15 units of 8 or 12 cars to replace the 387/1 batch after all.

A lot depends on the exact plan to replace the existing Thameslink units, I (and I reckon many others) originally assumed that all the 387/1s would remain until all the 319s had left, - but that might no longer be the case.  In other words 387/1s could leave Thameslink while they are still using a few 319s.

As the 387/1 are already in use, transferring them to another route should be achievable fairly quickly.

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Rhydgaled on November 18, 2014, 12:49:03 pm
I thought the possiblity of 387s for Great Western was more-related to where the first batch would be cascaded when the 700s arrive, rather than the 108 vehicle extension order. I suppose the question is whether the 29 units is enough for the Thames Valley.

Can't help noticing that the new GatwickExpress Fleet (108 vehicles) is smaller than the current one (120 vehicles). Less work to Brighton for the new Gatwick Fleet?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on November 18, 2014, 01:40:10 pm
You can guarantee that the GW won't get a mixture of 319s & 387s....so if there aren't enough 387s going to meet the need to all services needing them, it'll be 319s....

But then again, I've always understood refreshed 319s were coming to the TV, and haven't seen anything other than rumour that they aren't.

Having said that, it'll be down to FGW to lease whatever they can get, I guess. That'll form part of their bid for the 5-year award coming up.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on November 18, 2014, 05:23:18 pm
Can't help noticing that the new GatwickExpress Fleet (108 vehicles) is smaller than the current one (120 vehicles). Less work to Brighton for the new Gatwick Fleet?

The new fleet will almost certainly be more reliable than the 442s, allowing greater '%age' utilisation anyway, and the few 442s used on other non Gatwick/Brighton services, i.e. the Eastbourne to London Bridge peak extras will probably revert to normal 377 operation in the overall stock shakeup.  Even if they only binned the Eastbournes that would be 10 vehicles no longer needed.

The other main difference is that the fleet will be able to be used in 4, 8 or 12 formations, rather than just 5 or 10, and if train sizes are biased towards the peak flow directions it'll all work out...

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on November 18, 2014, 05:25:31 pm
Being intro'd next year, according to tonight's Evening Standard. Extends to Brighton off-peak only


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: John R on November 18, 2014, 05:47:15 pm
Think they've got confused. It's the 387/1's for Thameslink that are being introduced in 2015, the DfT press release definitely says the 387/2s will be introduced in 2016.  As an aside, it's more good news for Bombardier. Whilst 108 cars isn't a massive order, it's a nice little add-on to the existing one.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on November 18, 2014, 06:30:04 pm
Think they've got confused...
Situation normal for the Standard then...


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 18, 2014, 07:07:41 pm
You can guarantee that the GW won't get a mixture of 319s & 387s....so if there aren't enough 387s going to meet the need to all services needing them, it'll be 319s....

But then again, I've always understood refreshed 319s were coming to the TV, and haven't seen anything other than rumour that they aren't.

I'll have a cheeky fiver with anyone that 319s will not come to the Thames Valley routes for anything other than a short stop-gap period, or possibly as a small fleet to work the branches after Crossrail.

Several reasons for that opinion:

  • Network Rail's statements that they feel 110mph capable EMUs are needed to make best use of the newly electrified routes (which counts as more than a 'rumour' I feel).
  • The prestige of the Oxford to London route meaning that more modern stock would be more suitable than 30 year old units.
  • The original Class 319 statement was made many years ago and the electrification strategy has moved on considerably since then, particularly with regard to extensions to the programme in the North West, which would probably use up the entire 319 fleet in an area where 30 year old trains would not be considered a backward step from what is currently provided.
  • The 387s needed post-Crossrail would indeed be roughly the 29 units that Rhydgaled mentions to cover what will be needed by FGW.
  • Paul is quite right that it might be 387s that are released from Thameslink routes before the 319s as the new 700s appear on stream.

What I can see possibly happening is a short-term usage of the 319s to cover the period between electrification, and the gradual cascade of Turbo units, to when the full Crossrail integration starts in 2019 as more electric units will be required during that interim period for the Reading to London suburban services - they could then move on to the Thames Valley branches, Basingstoke's and Banbury's after Crossrail services start.  I can also see the Turbos (or at least some of them) staying a bit longer than is currently planned to wait for those electric units to become available.

I might be wrong of course and time will tell.   ;)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: 4064ReadingAbbey on November 18, 2014, 09:06:20 pm

I'll have a cheeky fiver with anyone that 319s will not come to the Thames Valley routes for anything other than a short stop-gap period, or possibly as a small fleet to work the branches after Crossrail.


I agree that in the longer term EMUs with a better performance than the 319s will be needed to maximise track capacity. However, it was reported several months ago, after the franchise was extended, that fGW were told by the DfT to stop work on procuring such trains. My impression then was that we were were going to be lumbered with the things[1] but I've since changed my mind. It may well be that the forthcoming Direct Award to fGW to continue operating the Western will permit, encourage or require that fGW starts procurement of more suitable trains. My reasoning is that the franchise extension is a continuation of the status quo, whereas the Direct Award is a new contract with different T&Cs and such requirements can be included.

If the new Direct Award franchisee is as fast off the mark as the new Scotrail franchisee in ordering new trains there might be a fighting chance of getting new outer suburban EMUs into service at the same time, or shortly after, the 800s start running in 2017.

[1] This is unfair - but although they have a 100mph top speed that still leaves a 25mph speed differential between them and the HSTs and Class 800s. In view of the greater acceleration of the 800s compared to the HSTs, that means that using 319s will cost at least one and probably nearer two paths between Reading and Paddington (and vice versa) on the Mains. Medium term, i.e., post Class 800 introduction, outer suburban EMUs with more oomph and swoosh will be needed.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: SandTEngineer on November 19, 2014, 09:56:56 pm
Solution: Reduce the mains PSR to 100mph and line capacity dramatically increases :P
Would only increase the journey time between Paddington and Reading by 5 to 6 mins but less bunching of trains results in better timekeeping anyway so the extra time probably wouldn't be noticed by many people (including me) ;D .....and how many times have you recently arrived 'on time' at Reading or Paddington.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: 4064ReadingAbbey on November 20, 2014, 02:11:46 pm
Solution: Reduce the mains PSR to 100mph and line capacity dramatically increases :P
Would only increase the journey time between Paddington and Reading by 5 to 6 mins but less bunching of trains results in better timekeeping anyway so the extra time probably wouldn't be noticed by many people (including me) ;D .....and how many times have you recently arrived 'on time' at Reading or Paddington.

Hmm! Spend ^4 billion on new IEP/SET trains in order to be able to travel as quickly as a Class 52 on 12...?  :o

I say, 'Bring back the hydraulics...' ;)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Visoflex on November 21, 2014, 11:13:12 am
I must admit that my memory is getting hazy in my old age, but I can't remember when the 0803 or 0815 ex Twyford last ran to time.  :)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on November 21, 2014, 06:01:41 pm
I think you will find 319's running the Padd - Reading locals in latter part of 2016 and possibly extended to Oxford in 2017 


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: SandTEngineer on November 21, 2014, 06:25:03 pm
I use this site to check the trains I normally use: http://www.recenttraintimes.co.uk/


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on November 21, 2014, 06:30:51 pm

I agree that in the longer term EMUs with a better performance than the 319s will be needed to maximise track capacity. However, it was reported several months ago, after the franchise was extended, that fGW were told by the DfT to stop work on procuring such trains. My impression then was that we were were going to be lumbered with the things[1] but I've since changed my mind. It may well be that the forthcoming Direct Award to fGW to continue operating the Western will permit, encourage or require that fGW starts procurement of more suitable trains. My reasoning is that the franchise extension is a continuation of the status quo, whereas the Direct Award is a new contract with different T&Cs and such requirements can be included.


My thoughts were that 'procurement' meant the full process of specifying the requirement in an ITT, and then organising finance via a Rosco etc.  But using trains that someone else had already procured on DfT's behalf would simply be taking over a lease as directed by DfT; and that could apply to the 387/1s...

I suppose it depends how much you read into the exact meaning of the word...

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: drandles on December 09, 2014, 05:33:03 pm
I believe FGW have already indicated informally that they are negotiating to acquire the Class 387/1s.  The expected delivery rate of Class 700 units to Thamesllink should allow all 29 Class 387/1s to be released from Thameslink by December 2016 when the Oxford & Newbury electrification is due to be completed.

At present FGW uses (approx.) 36 Class 165/1 units and 21 Class 166 units.  Quite a few of these are used on diagrams over routes that will not be electrified under current plans (eg Reading-Gatwick, north of Oxford etc).  Additionally quite a few 166 diagrams will be worked by Class 800 IEPs (eg Cotswold services).  So it is not inconceivable that the 29 Class 387/1s would be sufficient to cover the electrified Thames Valley local services on the GWML.  The only uncertainty is what will be used on the electrified branch services to Marlow which will need to be 2 car units.

David



Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on December 09, 2014, 06:10:30 pm
Can you say to whom they have informally indicated this to?

Or is it just heresay (ie you don't know)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: DidcotPunter on December 09, 2014, 06:14:50 pm
I believe FGW have already indicated informally that they are negotiating to acquire the Class 387/1s.  The expected delivery rate of Class 700 units to Thamesllink should allow all 29 Class 387/1s to be released from Thameslink by December 2016 when the Oxford & Newbury electrification is due to be completed.

At present FGW uses (approx.) 36 Class 165/1 units and 21 Class 166 units.  Quite a few of these are used on diagrams over routes that will not be electrified under current plans (eg Reading-Gatwick, north of Oxford etc).  Additionally quite a few 166 diagrams will be worked by Class 800 IEPs (eg Cotswold services).  So it is not inconceivable that the 29 Class 387/1s would be sufficient to cover the electrified Thames Valley local services on the GWML.  The only uncertainty is what will be used on the electrified branch services to Marlow which will need to be 2 car units.

David



And don't forget that - eventually - the Reading to Paddington stoppers will be taken over by Crossrail and will be operated by Class 345 units. The 387/1s would be utilised on Padd-Newbury, Padd-Oxford services which aren't operated by IEP, and possibly Reading to Basingstoke. I expect the service to be completely recast post-electrification but I would have thought that 29 units would be enough, even allowing for some 8 or even 12 car trains on the main line in the rush hour.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on December 10, 2014, 08:50:11 am
That's eventually, while the largest number will be needed to start with....


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 10, 2014, 10:28:05 am
Hence my post on the previous page suggesting that 319s might be used as a stop-gap for a couple of years with the 387s remaining post-Crossrail.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on December 10, 2014, 11:13:02 am
377s or 387s? Now I'm getting confused :-)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on December 10, 2014, 01:17:34 pm
377s or 387s? Now I'm getting confused :-)

Well the 387s were usually referred to as 377/8s for quite a long time...

Now that the things are being seen in service on the Brighton - Bedfords, they aren't that different from a 377.  There seems to be a reasonable assumption that the class number change was purely to differentiate their top speed - which is of course unused in their current employment.

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: grahame on December 10, 2014, 03:47:59 pm
Can you say to whom they have informally indicated this to?

Or is it just heresay (ie you don't know)

Hmmm ... that reads a bit rude to me .... "Children!" or should I say "Child!"?

We have a separate board area - "The Rumour Mill" where we usually post completely unsubstantiated information, but that's only available to member who have reached a certain threshold of posts.   So in this thread, where the information comes from a newer member, it's perfectly  fine and the only place it could have been posted!


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on December 10, 2014, 04:04:55 pm
... is it just heresay ...

As a matter of interest, ChrisB, did you mean 'heresy' or 'hearsay'?  ::)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on December 10, 2014, 04:41:44 pm
Hearsay :-)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on December 10, 2014, 04:43:17 pm
Hoping to get an answer to my Q though


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: bignosemac on December 10, 2014, 07:57:48 pm
Hoping to get an answer to my Q though

Desmond Llewelyn?  ??? :-\ ;D


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Timmer on December 10, 2014, 09:03:50 pm
Hoping to get an answer to my Q though
Desmond Llewelyn?  ??? :-\ ;D
Or the new Q Ben Whishaw aka Paddington (keeping it railway related...I'll get my coat)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Western Pathfinder on December 10, 2014, 09:39:45 pm
Hoping to get an answer to my Q though

Desmond Llewelyn?  ??? :-\ ;D

Best answer to a question ever 1 Never let them see you bleed. 2 Allways have an escape plan .


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Visoflex on March 23, 2015, 10:51:52 am
According to Rail Technology Magazine...

"...58 four-car electric trains for Thames Valley services. RTM was told that 21 Class 365s (from the Great Northern route) and 37 Class 387s (from the Thameslink route) will be cascaded to the Thames Valley, plus another eight new Class 387s. The new fleet will start being introduced next year and fully implemented by May 2017."

Make of that what you will.



Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on March 23, 2015, 06:32:21 pm
It^s good that it^s at last been confirmed that we^ll be getting modern 110 mph for the outer Thames Valley services (I^m assuming the 365^s will stay on the inners), thus increasing the chance of finding paths for them on the ML^s on stretches where they aren^t stopping.   

Just have to wait and see the interior layouts ^ will they have First Class and will Standard stay as 2 + 2 as they are currently configured?  And surely now is the time to lengthen platforms that are too short for 4 cars ^ eg Appleford.  SDO on suburban trains is really not the way a modern railway should be working.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Visoflex on March 25, 2015, 09:08:12 am
I am only speculating here, but I would imagine that on transfer, any refresh works would be fairly limited.  The 365's have been through a recent (in railway terms) refit, and the 387's are relatively new.  As long as they conform to modern DDA standards re: toilets and passenger information systems; I would imagine any update or refresh works would be confined to a superficial "wipe down with a damp rag" and new vinyls.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: eightf48544 on March 26, 2015, 09:22:13 am
Not sure if it's been mentioned do 365s and 387s couple and run in multiple?

Looking at Roger Ford's Golden Spanners having a mixed fleet is not conducuve to relability.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Visoflex on March 26, 2015, 09:46:52 am
I don't know what the plans are for what stock runs what route.  No doubt this will emerge over the next few months.
However, I can't think of many occasions where stock of obviously differing types gets coupled together on a basis other than for emergency reasons.

I don't quite follow Roger Ford's logic here.  Whilst it is theoretically ideal to have a fleet of identical trains, operational flexibility, crew training, maintenance etc.  The downside is that if a major fault manifests itself, then the whole fleet would be affected. 


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on March 26, 2015, 09:59:56 am
365s won't currently couple to a 387 even for emergency, as they predate the decision to generally fit Dellner/Scharenberg pattern couplers to EMUs.

However there are precedents for sub-fleets to have couplers changed to allow mutual assistance within an area, hence Southern's 170s becoming 171s to allow mechanical coupling with 377 etc.   The SWT 458/5 have also been made 'coupler compatible' with Desiros as part of the current rebuild.

PS - any chance this thread could have its title amended now they are coming?

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 26, 2015, 10:17:56 am
I don't know what the plans are for what stock runs what route.  No doubt this will emerge over the next few months.

I should imagine that the 365s will work the suburban routes more as they have a few more seats than the 387/1s have - a total of 268 per unit against 226.  They still have 2+2 seating though so in terms of total seating, an 8-car Class 365 will accommodate the same as a 6-car Turbo (though in much more comfort), whilst an 8-car 387 will seat roughly the same as a 5-car Turbo.  No tables (except in 1st) on the 365s as far as I know, whereas there's 26 per set on the 387s, so they'll better suited to the longer distance commuter routes such as Oxford, Newbury and Swindon to London.

[By the way, could the mods change the title of this thread to say they are coming to the Thames Valley?]


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Visoflex on March 26, 2015, 01:24:09 pm
Quote
an 8-car Class 365 will accommodate the same as a 6-car Turbo (though in much more comfort),

Well that's the business case blown then.  Comfort has nothing to do with modern day travel!  ;)

However, Rail Magazine published this.  Note the comment about the 365 couplers.

..."Just because a particular region is not receiving overhead line electrification, doesn^t mean that it still won^t benefit as part of the new First Great Western franchise that begins this September (RAIL 771).

The 42-month deal signed with the Department for Transport includes new trains and a huge capacity increase, with the opportunity for further investment in the future should a deal with Hitachi for a minimum of 29 AT300 bi-mode trains be completed. This includes an option for a further 30 trains if the need arises, and that need has not 100% been ruled out.

While the headline new trains are the Intercity Express Programme (IEP) trains that have started arriving for testing ahead of their entry into traffic in 2017 (RAIL 771), the improvements will be felt all the way from Paddington to Penzance via Bristol, Weymouth, Cardiff and Exeter.

Starting in the Thames Valley, electric multiple units will replace the majority of the Thames Valley Turbo trains. There are 151 Turbo vehicles used by FGW here, and 108 will be cascaded west as 21 Class 365s (84 vehicles) and 29 Class 387/1s (116 vehicles) arrive from Govia Thameslink Railway to replace them.

An additional eight brand new Class 387/1s will also be constructed (32 vehicles), giving a total of 232 EMU vehicles compared with the current 151 DMU vehicles. According to an FGW statement on March 23, the EMUs will raise capacity by 25% in the high peak.

The new ^387s^ will be constructed once the Gatwick Express Class 387/2s are completed next year. Bombardier will build them at Derby Litchurch Lane.

FGW Engineering Director Andy Mellors told RAIL on March 31 that the arrival of the ^365s^ was a huge boost, as originally it was believed that older Class 319s would move to the operator. He says the Class 387s will arrive first from GTR. The ^365s^ will arrive later, but need some minor work.

^They need Driver Only Operational CCTV fitted on them. We have that fitted on a mixture of the Turbos. The ^365s^ will have the in-cab equipment fitted.^

However, the implementation of Driver Controlled Operation (DCO) is only being discussed, while FGW plans to recruit more than 100 customer-facing staff for trains.

The ^365s^ will also be fitted with Dellner couplings. This means all EMUs will be fitted with similar systems, so that if there is a failure they can be pushed out of the way by another train.

Currently the longest trains on the Thames Valley are six-car DMUs. Mellors says that the Class 365s will not operate in more than eight-car formations (pairs of ^365s^), while the Class 387s will run up to 12-car trains. Eventually maintenance will be carried out on the EMUs at Reading, but until the Great Western Main Line from Hayes to Reading is wired, other options are being explored. ^There^s direct access to depots in the London area,^ says Mellors.

He adds that FGW is also exploring the possibility of Independently Powered Electric Multiple Units (IPEMUs), and has studied the trials of 379013 on the Manningtree-Harwich branch to assess its capabilities. ^We are in discussions now, and are keen to find a resolution.^ He suggests that trains to Bedwyn and Gatwick could use them.

The cascaded Turbos offer a 52% increase in capacity in the Bristol area, although the Class 16x fleet moving west will require some minor infrastructure modifications because of the trains^ width. FGW will also modify their nominal ride height.

Regarding the cascade, Mellors tells RAIL: ^There are really three phases. Initially, a couple head west. They^re effectively released by the introduction of EMUs. That allows the Bristol area to introduce controlled training for crews. We can train people there.^ The trains will be based at St Philip^s Marsh.

Initially two Turbos will be used on the Severn Beach branch, which has been chosen because it is self-contained. They will replace Class 150s, adding 250 seats to the route. In turn, that allows six Class 150 vehicles to move to Exeter.

Mellors explains: ^The rump of the cascade is geared around May 2017. You may start to see more EMUs before that.^

This is when the Thames Valley benefits from a vastly improved timetable that will have been recast to make use of the EMUs, and when most of the 16x fleet can head west as the ^365s^ and ^387s^ will be in place.

^The back end of the cascade sees all the Thames Valley branches wired late. Reading-Basingstoke, Windsor and Henley are all wired in 2018,^ says Mellors.

The Turbos are currently being fitted with WiFi equipment, in an internal FGW project. By March 31, FGW had fitted eight trains, with two treated each weekend.

This is a new franchise commitment, but one that FGW plans to complete early. The work is being carried out now that the FGW High Speed Train fleet has been completed (with WiFi free in both First and Standard Class). FGW^s Sleeper fleet has also been completed.

With the Turbo introduction in the Bristol area, that releases DMUs to move to the Exeter area, offering a 58% capacity increase in the Devon region. Class 150/2s and ^158s^ will move west.

^We will relinquish the ^143s^ and ^150s^, and there will be a phased handback of Class 150/1s. The long-term fleet is ^150/2s^

Mellors says that Exeter will end up with 89 vehicles (43 Class 158 vehicles and 46 Class 150/2 vehicles). Two three-car Class 150/0s are also being retained.

One of the challenges the industry faces is the Passengers of Reduced Mobility - Technical Specification for Interoperability (PRM-TSI) deadline of January 1 2020. The two ^150/0s^ can be modified, and will offer three-car capability for the Exeter region. ^They are good for seating and have one toilet per train. They offer flexibility for capacity,^ says Mellors.

He says retaining the ^150/2s^ makes sense because as FGW wants to run mainly four-car trains in the Exeter region, the retained DMUs have through gangways (whereas the ^150/1s^ do not).

All the branches in the Exeter region will use Class 150s except the Barnstaple branch, which will have ^158s^ because journeys tend to be along the full-length of the branch. There are also planned journey time improvements.

^The key issue for Exeter is that it is the hub for the Devon Metro,^ Mellors tells RAIL. ^There will be four trains per hour in the peak. Exeter is the right place for a facility. There will be investment in the facility there, but we are evaluating options in respect of the current site.^

He says that options are even being discussed with Network Rail about moving the depot, which is currently next to Exeter St Davids station. ^Riverside is a big site,^ he says, adding that the currently facility is constrained. ^It^s a two-car shed and we will run at least three-car trains. Not all return each night, but there just isn^t the space now.^

Once FGW has completed fitting WiFi to its Class 16x fleet, attention will turn to the Class 158s. When they are done, the ^150s^ (those staying with FGW) will be treated.

At-seat power is also a commitment for the franchise on the DMU fleet, and where possible USB ports will be installed.

Mellors says: ^The Class 166s have air-conditioning, and we are committed to fitting air-cooling equipment to the ^165s^. They will work on the routes Class 158s are on.^

Further west, Penzance Long Rock depot is to be upgraded, in readiness for looking after the Sleeper stock and locomotives when Old Oak Common is closed. It is being upgraded as part of the Cornish Rail Programme - facilities are to be enhanced for DMUs, and capacity will increase.

Passenger services will be half-hourly between Penzance and Plymouth, with a mixture of FGW HSTs to London and FGW ^158s^ running to Bristol and Exeter. A small number of CrossCountry Voyagers will also operate trains.

Times are changing on the FGW routes, with capacity increases across the region. The Great Western is often forgotten, as other regions shout more loudly. But with new and cascaded trains, that is no longer the case."



Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on March 26, 2015, 06:52:07 pm
PS - any chance this thread could have its title amended now they are coming?

Thanks for making that valid and constructive point, Paul - I've now made the appropriate change.  ;)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: eightf48544 on March 26, 2015, 11:14:12 pm
I hope travellers in the Inner TV area don't take to the 365s as they will find the Crossrail units a real disappointment.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: autotank on March 26, 2015, 11:20:25 pm
I've read a couple of posts in this thread that indicate the 387's will work services to Swindon. Do we know which services the EMUs will work in Wiltshire?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on March 27, 2015, 09:56:26 am
Far too soon methinks - I doubt the timetable is yet complete, never mind trhe stock allocation.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on March 27, 2015, 10:40:14 am
I've read a couple of posts in this thread that indicate the 387's will work services to Swindon. Do we know which services the EMUs will work in Wiltshire?

As Chris B says, it is probably too early, but the consultation for the direct award definitely refers to a peak only 'fast' EMU service from Swindon, so by default it would probably use the 387, but the paragraph doesn't explicitly state that:

Quote
London & Thames Valley
To build on the enhancements in SLC2, the December 2018 timetable change will see 110 mph operation on the Main (fast) lines enabling faster Oxford and Newbury services as well as additional fast peak hour trains from Swindon and Didcot to London Paddington. EMU trains will operate in 12 car formation on the Main lines and 8 car on the Relief (slow) lines.
 

But whether that would be a single train from Swindon and another from Didcot, or a few per peak calling at both is not at all clear.

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: didcotdean on March 27, 2015, 10:49:02 am
I've read a couple of posts in this thread that indicate the 387's will work services to Swindon. Do we know which services the EMUs will work in Wiltshire?
The peak time Swindon-Didcot-(Reading)-Paddington to be introduced in December 2018 as given in the "Government Response to 2014 Great Western Franchise Consultation" references this service as an EMU. I put a Reading stop in brackets as it isn't mentioned explicitly in that document, but is quite likely in practice.

There has been previous mention of a possible Didcot-Reading-Paddington hourly EMU shuttle service through the day extended to Swindon for peaks which is consistent with this as well.

(Posting crossed with above.)



Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on March 27, 2015, 11:09:00 am
I suspect this will be the main supplier of Didcot fasts, allowing longer distance services to miss (some) stops at Didcot. Certainly in the morning, some could also miss Reading too, what with the extra capacity, Reading won't *need* all the fast PADs.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: didcotdean on March 27, 2015, 11:36:37 am
The most interesting thing I found with the service diagram in the report was that the hourly Cardiffs would all miss out Reading. I think before on some of the 'illustrative' allocation lists this service was in general down for a 5-car set, so this would maybe make some sense.

There has been speculation before that if there were trains originating in the Thames Valley that were one or non stop from Reading into London with stock of a decent standard (in particular not 3+2 seating) that the Reading commuters could be weaned off the longer distance services to some extent.  There would be 4-5 an hour on the published plans.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on March 27, 2015, 11:39:37 am
Yup - I can see set-down only in the AM and pick-up only on the PM a lot more once these other 365/387s services kick-in.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on March 27, 2015, 12:15:04 pm
There are quite a few stations that are to be served by the new emu^s were the RL platforms aren^t long enough for 8 car formations (which Paul quotes above as the chosen mode of operation on the RL^s), my own local station Pangbourne included.   

I do hope the plan is to lengthen platforms but I suspect we^ll be stuck with SDO, which lengthens dwell times especially if we^re looking at more than just the end doors being held closed.

Incidentally, if SDO is to be used with DOO it has to be a fully automatic system which I^ve seen referred to as FASDO.  FASDO can work out where the train has stopped (ie station, platform, position) and then decide which doors to open, and even initiate automatic announcements telling the passengers where to get off (as well as thanking them for traveling with FGW etc of course). 

So all the Driver has to do is press the Open Doors button and FASDO does the rest.



Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: PhilWakely on March 27, 2015, 12:17:31 pm
Yup - I can see set-down only in the AM and pick-up only on the PM a lot more once these other 365/387s services kick-in.

Would be interesting to know exactly how this would be policed. I have been on a number of westcountry services over the years that were advertised as pick-up only at Reading, yet there has always been a large exodus on arrival at Reading.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: stuving on March 27, 2015, 12:34:53 pm
I do hope the plan is to lengthen platforms but I suspect we^ll be stuck with SDO, which lengthens dwell times especially if we^re looking at more than just the end doors being held closed.

In CP5 (as at Dec 2014) this work is part of project W004 "Thames Valley Electric Multiple Unit Capability Works":

Quote
^ a review of station operations at all stations where EMU trains are due to stop; this may result in changes such as: platform extensions; selective door opening; revisions to permissive working for attaching, detaching; platform sharing arrangements and alterations to signal controls and signal locations to deal with changes to train operations and alterations to DOO equipment (CCTV, lighting and mirrors).

DfT have indicated that the initial EMU operations will utilise class 319 units operating up to 12-car in length over the following core route sections:

Core routes
^ Paddington to Oxford.
^ Slough to Windsor and Eton Central.
^ Maidenhead to Marlow.
^ Twyford to Henley.
^ Reading to Newbury.
^ Reading to Basingstoke.

Activities and milestones

MilestoneDescriptionDateStatus
GRIP 3 completionSingle option selectionApril 2015Regulated Output
GRIP 4 completionSingle option scope definedDecember 2015Indicative
GRIP 6 startStart on site (in phases)October 2015Indicative
GRIP 6 completionInfrastructure ready for phased
introduction of EMU operations
May 2016 ^ May 2017

So on that basis the decision of what to do where hasn't been made yet.

Note that to Swindon is not a core route - but that might be just because it has no station to be used by EMUs but not SETs.

Also, the following are also stated:
Quote
^ Dates within CP5 are yet to be committed for the electrification of the following branch lines: Slough to Windsor and Eton Central, Maidenhead to Marlow and Twyford to Henley.
^ The dates for the electrification between Reading to Basingstoke (Electric Spine) are yet to be agreed and may not be delivered in CP5.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on March 27, 2015, 01:14:46 pm
Would be interesting to know exactly how this would be policed. I have been on a number of westcountry services over the years that were advertised as pick-up only at Reading, yet there has always been a large exodus on arrival at Reading.

Easiest way in the morning is for all the p/up trains to use one island platform (both sides if needed) with revenue protection at the top of the escalator. Thinking aloud, that would work in both directions actually


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Oxonhutch on March 27, 2015, 01:58:27 pm
It would be much easier not to stop Reading. Reading to/from points-west passengers would merely change at Didcot in the peaks.

Is it envisaged that SWI-PAD EMUs would call at the local Didcot-Reading stations en route?  That would make for a nice service for me.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on March 27, 2015, 01:59:36 pm
I suspect trains will be designed to be full


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: didcotdean on March 27, 2015, 02:06:03 pm
It would be much easier not to stop Reading. Reading to/from points-west passengers would merely change at Didcot in the peaks.

Is it envisaged that SWI-PAD EMUs would call at the local Didcot-Reading stations en route?  That would make for a nice service for me.
My understanding from past documents is that they are intended to be limited stop intended to relieve the long distance trains, although ideas change.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Oxonhutch on March 27, 2015, 02:47:20 pm
I suspect trains will be designed to be full
Chris, you are a little too subtle there for me. Would you care to explain please.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on March 27, 2015, 02:51:17 pm
Won't be any point in stopping locally as the timetable will be designed such that the these are likely to be filled with the proposed SWI-DID-(RDG)-PAD in that they'll likely be the only fast trains for DID, and only sufficient in order that they'll cope with pax from those stations.

The local DID-RDG stations likely to be served from OXF, running fast RDG-PAD, but slow OXF-RDG via Didcot - but pax from DID will use the fasts, so likely dropping at DID in the am, and picking up from DID in the pm


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ellendune on March 27, 2015, 07:54:04 pm
If the EMU s are there to remove the need for the Fast trains to stop during the peak then why even think about pick up and set down only options?  If there is another train for those passengers to use without undue delay then don't stop.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on March 28, 2015, 01:07:34 pm
Because you might work in Reading (lots do) and want to go to Bristol/Bath/Cardiff/Swansea? or vice-versa


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ellendune on March 28, 2015, 01:54:53 pm
Because you might work in Reading (lots do) and want to go to Bristol/Bath/Cardiff/Swansea? or vice-versa
Yes but it all depends on how long they have to wait for the next one.

Easiest way in the morning is for all the p/up trains to use one island platform (both sides if needed) with revenue protection at the top of the escalator.

And what could revenue protection actually do when they stop people who have got off a train that was pick up only? Charge them for a return to the next stop?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on March 28, 2015, 02:43:23 pm
Charge them a full single from origin to the first advertised stop, yes.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: bignosemac on March 28, 2015, 05:25:20 pm
Charge them a full single from origin to the first advertised stop, yes.

I wonder though whether such a charge would stand up to legal scrutiny?

I think that greater efforts should be made to prevent pax boarding a pick up only service, rather than looking at ways to penalise. Also I don't think it right that west bound Reading passengers should be inconvenienced by the complete removal of stops just because PAD-RDG commuters are using services they shouldn't.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Oxonhutch on March 28, 2015, 06:11:21 pm
I wonder though whether such a charge would stand up to legal scrutiny?
Theoretical case ...  A person with a full single ticket to Didcot (the first advertised stopping place) decides to break his journey at Reading from a service which is pick-up only Reading.  What could Revenue Protection do in this case? Charge him for another ticket to Didcot? I think BNM's comments refer.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: PhilWakely on March 28, 2015, 06:51:54 pm
Would be interesting to know exactly how this would be policed. I have been on a number of westcountry services over the years that were advertised as pick-up only at Reading, yet there has always been a large exodus on arrival at Reading.

Easiest way in the morning is for all the p/up trains to use one island platform (both sides if needed) with revenue protection at the top of the escalator. Thinking aloud, that would work in both directions actually

Theoretical case ...  A person with a full single ticket to Didcot (the first advertised stopping place) decides to break his journey at Reading from a service which is pick-up only Reading.  What could Revenue Protection do in this case? Charge him for another ticket to Didcot? I think BNM's comments refer.

Thinking aloud now.....
If a service is advertised as p/u only at any location, then somebody with a valid ticket for the specified train, but breaking their journey at a p/u only location is still deliberately flouting the timetabled restriction, so should be charged a penalty fare - whatever that maybe. There is absolutely no excuse. But, I guess the only 'legal' (for revenue protection purposes) way would be to introduce a new ticket restriction.  Then use the mechanism stated by ChrisB above. (??)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on March 28, 2015, 08:18:03 pm
BNM, no one's suggesting a complete removal. There still needs to be capacity to carry all those widhing to travel (from) there in the peaks. I doubt dufficient extra services can be introduced with acceptable stopping patterns (say Maidenhead &/or Slough?, so some longer distance trains will still need to be full stops there

If the trains p/u only used a pair of separately barriered platforms (one island), intro of smart cards would enable gates to be programmed fir each train & could then refuse entry to Reading smart tickets


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Oxonhutch on March 28, 2015, 09:00:05 pm
But, I guess the only 'legal' (for revenue protection purposes) way would be to introduce a new ticket restriction.  Then use the mechanism stated by ChrisB above. (??)
I honestly think that the best, and fairest way, for all passengers (Reading uploads included) is for key long-distance services - in the peak - not to stop at Reading.  That way it is self policing, passively punitive, and fair to those that want a seat for travel beyond the Thames Valley.  Those from Reading heading west should hopefully find plenty of seats vacated by their resident burghers (who are heading for the exit gatelines) on the allowable subset of Paddington-Reading down fasts.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: bignosemac on March 28, 2015, 09:54:41 pm
The two points I'm making are:

1) Don't look for creative ways to penalise those who have arrived at Reading on a pick up only service. Stop them boarding at Paddington.

2) Don't inconvenience westbound Reading passengers by reducing the choice of services they have by having more services non-stop through Reading. And I include in the coming years with increases in frequency to points west. Why shouldn't westbound Reading passengers also benefit from that frequency increase? Reading is a major interchange and nothing should be done to reduce connection opportunities.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on March 28, 2015, 10:38:18 pm
Don't look for creative ways to penalise those who have arrived at Reading on a pick up only service. Stop them boarding at Paddington.

That, I understand.  ;) :D ;D


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on March 29, 2015, 10:16:16 am
If Reading want a premium metro-style service, let them pay a premium price is my view. They can subsidise others who get a twice hourly service.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Rhydgaled on March 29, 2015, 12:06:06 pm
The two points I'm making are:

1) Don't look for creative ways to penalise those who have arrived at Reading on a pick up only service. Stop them boarding at Paddington.

2) Don't inconvenience westbound Reading passengers by reducing the choice of services they have by having more services non-stop through Reading. And I include in the coming years with increases in frequency to points west. Why shouldn't westbound Reading passengers also benefit from that frequency increase? Reading is a major interchange and nothing should be done to reduce connection opportunities.
I agree that connection opportunities are important, but I don't see how you can stop the wrong passengers boarding at PAD except by providing them with a strong disincentive to board. Issuing them with some kind of penalty on arrival at Reading seems to be one way of doing that, but can anyone think of any other approach?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ellendune on March 29, 2015, 02:01:22 pm
If Reading want a premium metro-style service, let them pay a premium price is my view. They can subsidise others who get a twice hourly service.

I agree. Given that the main capacity issues on the GW mail line are east of Reading and the price per mile is much lower than the longer distance services it does seem like they want their cake and eat it. 

Stooping boarding at Paddington seems a better option, but considering how short the turn-round times are in the peak sometimes, controlling entry automatically at the barriers would be the only possible way. 


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: didcotdean on March 29, 2015, 02:54:03 pm
This seems to have gone onto the general service plan rather than just the 387s.

However, in looking at such issues as the Reading stops, considering only the IEP services via the main line, the suggested stopping pattern per hour for the 9 services in the peak given in the consultation response is:

Reading - 5 (2*Bristol, Swansea, Cheltenham, Hereford)
Didcot - 4 (Bristol, Cardiff, Cheltenham, Worcester SH)
Swindon - 5 (2*Bristol, Cardiff, Cheltenham, Swansea)
Bristol Parkway - 3
Bristol TM - 3
Cardiff - 3
Swansea - 1

Putting it another way, 4 out of 9 services are not scheduled to stop at Reading if that is the adopted pattern.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: PhilWakely on March 29, 2015, 03:26:19 pm
This seems to have gone onto the general service plan rather than just the 387s.

apologies for staying off the original O/P, but maintaining the general service plan discussion...
However, in looking at such issues as the Reading stops, considering only the IEP services via the main line......, the suggested stopping pattern per hour ... is:
Reading - 5 (2*Bristol, Swansea, Cheltenham, Hereford)
...............
Putting it another way, 4 out of 9 services are not scheduled to stop at Reading if that is the adopted pattern.

Then, add in the other main line services (i.e. via the Berks & Hants @ 2 p/h [??] ) which are all likely to stop at Reading, so 4 out of 11 not stopping is not unreasonable. As a user of longer distance services, whose family has in the past been denied access to seat reservations and had to stand because of Reading commuters, I would like to see some sort of measures put in place to prevent this abuse.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: didcotdean on March 29, 2015, 04:38:42 pm
How were you denied access to seat reservations?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: PhilWakely on March 29, 2015, 06:03:45 pm
How were you denied access to seat reservations?
I meant denied access to our reserved seats as opposed to seat reservations.
This occurred a few years ago. Very simply, we could see from the platform at Paddington that our reserved seats had already occupied by 'four suited gentlemen', but because the train was already crowded, we could not actually get to the seats and had to stand [the TM would not have been able to walk down through the train if I had been able to find him to complain!] These gentlemen alighted at Reading despite the service being advertised as p/u only and only then were we able to confirm that those were indeed 'our' seats and were able to sit down. 


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: trainbus on March 29, 2015, 08:21:20 pm
I am not a fan of pick-up only trains nowadays. Sadly, in these aggressive open data computer app days, many have scant respect for staff, rules or penalties and the ONLY way you can stop abuse of 'pick-up' only stops and avoid conflict is not to stop! This should apply to those long distance services that, in this case, are expected to be full upon departure from Paddington without Reading only customers. Not such a problem with inbound services as seats will already have been occupied upon arrival at Reading.

Trains with capacity should stop at Reading non-restricted, with westbound customers using space vacated by alighting commuters.

Non-stopping Reading gives a worthwhile commercial advantage to a small number of key trains in the down direction. In other words, bear in mind those high fare customers seeking a fast journey to, say, Exeter, who understandably would prefer not to be in competition with relatively short distance commuters for seats or otherwise.

Whilst I understand the comment about disadvantaging westbound customers from Reading, the flow is nothing like it is from Paddington. Using this argument perhaps all trains should also stop at Ealing Bdy, Slough and Maidenhead!!??  ;D >:(

My golden rule on long distance journeys is to arrive at Paddington before most of the commuters to ensure no problem getting a seat, reserved or otherwise!! Numbers of commuters arrive last minute as they cut it fine, have many trains to choose from and take the first fast whenever that is! Thus introducing a fast shuttle with pick-up only services will not resolve the problem. The first fast train is the first fast train so far as commuters are concerned, irrespective of any nominal restrictions that may or may not apply, or where it may or may not be going after Reading!! ::)

These are personal views of course, in the full appreciation that capacity is as ever finite, like it or not! The allocation of that capacity amongst the various traveller markets always has been and always will be subject of healthy tension! ;D



Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: bignosemac on March 29, 2015, 08:35:07 pm
Whilst I understand the comment about disadvantaging eastbound customers from Reading, the flow is nothing like it is from Paddington. Using this argument perhaps all trains should also stop at Ealing Bdy, Slough and Maidenhead!!??  ;D >:(

Westbound surely?

Neither Ealing, Slough or Maidenhead are major interchanges like Reading, which has passengers coming from all directions to connect onto services to Wiltshire, Bristol, South Wales, Worcestershire, Gloucestershire, Somerset, Devon and Cornwall. In fact Slough and Maidenhead passengers are ones likely to be inconvenienced by services non-stopping through Reading. Their connection options could be reduced if more long distance services missed their Reading call.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: trainbus on March 29, 2015, 08:52:48 pm
Agreed - thanks!
My final comment applies! :)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: stuving on March 29, 2015, 09:07:13 pm
. The first fast train is the first fast train so far as commuters are concerned, irrespective of any nominal restrictions that may or may not apply, or where it may or may not be going after Reading!! ::)

We'll see. Currently, the Reading service is provided by squeezing people into the "spare" space on long-distance trains. It's not that there is an alternative, and Reading commuters are being selfish. So what will they do when a load more seats are provided?

The morning is less of a problem, as the long-distance peak is later then for commuters, and anyway they get on first. In the evening the peaks overlap more, and everyone piles on in random order. (I go for the train after the  first one - hardly a huge wait.)

So the question is will Reading passengers go for the trains where they don't compete with long-distance ones, or have to look for reservations and risk standing if there are too many? Commuters do learn what works, and apply it on following days. Cutting the crowding enough to be able to get through the train would allow TMs to apply a bit of aversion therapy to those wrongly taking reserved seats, which would help.

I'm sure that operators find pick-up or set-down only a right pain, and would only do it as a last resort.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: PhilWakely on March 29, 2015, 09:28:34 pm
My golden rule on long distance journeys is to arrive at Paddington before most of the commuters to ensure no problem getting a seat, reserved or otherwise!! Numbers of commuters arrive last minute as they cut it fine, have many trains to choose from and take the first fast whenever that is!

That is all well and good if you are 'in the know' so are fully aware which train is yours and can stand by the gate rather than watch the departure board until your train is 'called' 5 minutes before departure when everybody rushes forward. When you have either young children or elderly parents with you it is not quite so easy to 'beat the commuter'. Of course, the other alternative for others in my situation is to wait until the peak is over - but that is not always possible.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Rhydgaled on March 29, 2015, 10:03:57 pm
the other alternative for others in my situation is to wait until the peak is over - but that is not always possible.
Indeed, it isn't always possible. See my example:
. The first fast train is the first fast train so far as commuters are concerned, irrespective of any nominal restrictions that may or may not apply, or where it may or may not be going after Reading!! ::)

We'll see. Currently, the Reading service is provided by squeezing people into the "spare" space on long-distance trains. It's not that there is an alternative, and Reading commuters are being selfish. So what will they do when a load more seats are provided?
Ever met the 17:39 (now 17:40) 'Sardine Express' off Cardiff Central? It is the last train of the day that connects to Fishguard (I don't tend to count the overnight boat train) and one of only one train every 2hrs to Milford Haven. It is normally formed of a class 175 (now lengthened to 3-car I believe, but it used to be a 2-car one). There is an IC125 from Paddington to Swansea just ten minutes later, leaving Cardiff at 17:50. Guess what? The 17:40 gets pretty full with relatively short-distance commuters. Now, you could argue that the IC125 isn't really meant for short-distance commuters either, or that the 17:40 calls at Pyle which the IC125 doesn't, so any Pyle-bound don't have the choice. But, this isn't a choice between a 9-car IEP or a 12-car suburban EMU, the 17:40 is a 3-car DMU and alot of passengers still try to cram onto it rather than wait 10 minutes for the IC125.

I've not braved it for ages though, so it might not be so bad now.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: grahame on March 29, 2015, 10:11:27 pm
Ever met the 17:39 (now 17:40) 'Sardine Express' off Cardiff Central? ... There is an IC125 from Paddington to Swansea just ten minutes later, leaving Cardiff at 17:50. Guess what?  ... The 17:40 is a 3-car DMU and alot of passengers still try to cram onto it rather than wait 10 minutes for the IC125.

Indeed - "a train in hand is worth two on the departure board".  (Sorry - joke used previously, but still applies).

I'm SO glad that the 17:36 Swindon to Westbury (1 car) follows the 17:30 Taunton train (8 cars), not the other way round - otherwise the short train would be crammed with Chippenham passengers, perhaps denying passengers for West Wilts the ability to board (it's getting pretty busy as it is!).

Does the 17:40 manage to keep ahead of the 17:50 HST?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Rhydgaled on March 29, 2015, 10:40:01 pm
Does the 17:40 manage to keep ahead of the 17:50 HST?
Since the line between Swansea and Cardiff is only double track the IC125 would struggle to overtake.

The 17:40 would have to sit in a loop somewhere in order to be overtaken, and I think most of the loops are freight-only. Although there might be one or two passenger loops, none of the intermediate stations have through platforms on anything other than the two main running lines, so the IC125 couldn't overtake while the other was making a station call (except perhaps if the IC125 ommited calling at Port Talbot Parkway and used the freight loop there).

The 17:40 is schedued to reach Swansea at 18:38 and depart at 18:41. The IC125 is timetabled to arrive in Swansea at 18:45. Some of the other Milford Haven services (for example the 19:46 off Cardiff, which is the next one after the 17:40) have a long wait at Swansea before departing in order that passengers on a following IC125 can connect, but the 17:40 doesn't.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on May 18, 2015, 11:59:50 am
Interesting table giving the 387 cascade dates into the GW franchise from GTR.  Given that the last ones have not entered service yet, GTR will only have all 29 units available for 9 or 10 months at the most:

Quote
29 Class 387 units (116vehicles) are delivered in four distinct phases:
- 6 units by end of March 2016;
- 4 units by end of April 2016;
- 8 units by end of February 2017
- 11 units by end of March 2017

The first 6 units being timed to coincide with the start of the previously discussed EMU shuttle between Paddington and Hayes & Harlington...

(Also posted in the 2015 franchise thread.)

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on July 13, 2015, 08:50:36 pm
All 29 units now in operation

http://www.thameslinkrailway.com/about-us/news/new-air-conditioned-trains-enter-service-on-thameslink/


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Visoflex on October 06, 2015, 01:08:35 pm
Perhaps this thread needs to be re-named again to "Class 387 coming to Thames Valley (eventually)"

Railway industry groundswell indicates that Oxford - Didcot route electrification will most likely be a casualty of the Hendy report, and completion delayed until CP6.  Effort will be kept up to electrify from Reading to Didcot for rolling stock testing purposes and then to infill from Maidenhead to Reading for Crossrail then Didcot to Swindon.  Having all those expensive bi-mode IEP's land-locked in sidings with nowhere to go will be unacceptable to the DfT.  In the short term, on the juice to Swindon, on the diesel to Bristol.

I suspect we'll be keeping the Turbos for a while longer.  How that plays with GWR's overall rolling stock cascade plans will have to be seen.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on October 06, 2015, 01:27:52 pm
Railway industry groundswell indicates that Oxford - Didcot route electrification will most likely be a casualty of the Hendy report, and completion delayed until CP6. 

Are you able to provide links to this groundswell, Visoflex?  I must admit, experience of it in the past means I don't often trust railway industry groundswell...  :-\

As far as I can see, the only justification for delaying Oxford to Didcot into CP6 is the proposed redevelopment of Oxford station itself, but, given that isn't even funded yet, it would be a dangerous and silly thing to do in my opinion.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: grahame on October 06, 2015, 02:24:11 pm
Railway industry groundswell indicates that Oxford - Didcot route electrification will most likely be a casualty of the Hendy report, and completion delayed until CP6. 
Are you able to provide links to this groundswell, Visoflex?  I must admit, experience of it in the past means I don't often trust railway industry groundswell...  :-\

Different to the rumours I had heard ... but then I didn't trust what I heard even to our "rumour mill".


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: DidcotPunter on October 06, 2015, 02:47:20 pm
If electrification of Didcot to Oxford (and presumably Reading to Newbury) is deferred, this begs the question of what happens to the 387s. My understanding is that they will be displaced by the Class 700s (Desiro Cities) of which the first units are starting testing on Southern and are due to start service on the Thameslink route next year.  The cascade programme is listed by Paul 7755 above but I believe that this was timed to allow for Padd to Oxford/Newbury services to transition to electric from 2017. If this doesn't happen then these will be sitting in sidings gathering dust which will also be embarrassing!

Modern Railways published an article a couple of months ago about NR's drive to get the wires up to Swindon as an interim measure in the delayed GWML electrification programme. As stated by Visioflex, the aim was to enable the IEPs to be introduced (freeing up some of the HSTs to go for upgrading for ScotRail) thus avoiding the political embarrassment of expensive new trains arriving from Hitachi with no wires to run under. Running on electric to Swindon and then on diesel to points west would be possible on the Class 800 bi-modes though may involve a contract variation (expensive!) as the original contract envisaged more limited running on diesel (Swindon-Cheltenham, Oxford-Hereford, south of Bristol and west of Newbury). Also it is believed that Hitachi have been asked to quote on delivering the nine car electric Class 801s as nine car bi-modes with diesel power packs added so they can operate off the wires.

It's some weeks since I travelled from Didcot to Oxford but, when I did, there was not much evidence of great progress. There was a fair bit of piling in place from Didcot to Radley but I didn't spot anything beyond that and nothing around Oxford itself. No steelwork was visible. Similarly I travelled from Kintbury to Reading on Saturday and again there's some piling intermittently in place from west of Newbury Racecourse to Reading West but it's far from complete. NR contractors do however appear to have rebuilt most of the overbridges on this section.

On the main line, the section between Tilehurst and Moreton Cutting (just east of Didcot) is most complete with most of the masts up, many of the cantilever and portal booms erected and some of the small part steelwork. In fact the section between Tilehurst and Pangbourne looks almost ready for wiring (apart from a redundant signal gantry in the way!). There's still work to do though in the stations and around the junctions at Didcot.

East of Reading there's been a lot more piling going in on the Amey contract between Kennet Bridge and Maidenhead though there are still some large gaps. Again no steelwork in place yet. Balfour Beatty appear to be making progress on the Crossrail West contract from Maidenhead to Airport Junction. Several completed portals and cantilevers between east of Maidenhead and Burnham and also around the Langley/Iver area.

I'm no engineer so my comment is uninformed but, looking at the current rate of progress, I reckon there's every chance that Didcot to Reading will be finished by the end of next year and quite possibly Reading to Airport Junction. I'm not so sure about Didcot to Swindon as progress seems much slower here, though it's a simpler part of the route to electrify. I guess that the Oxford and Newbury branches could follow on afterwards, but that still leaves the 387s in a siding (though there was some speculation that some might be fitted with batteries like the prototype battery powered class 379 earlier this year).


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Visoflex on October 06, 2015, 04:01:31 pm
Railway industry groundswell indicates that Oxford - Didcot route electrification will most likely be a casualty of the Hendy report, and completion delayed until CP6. 

Are you able to provide links to this groundswell, Visoflex?  I must admit, experience of it in the past means I don't often trust railway industry groundswell...  :-\

As far as I can see, the only justification for delaying Oxford to Didcot into CP6 is the proposed redevelopment of Oxford station itself, but, given that isn't even funded yet, it would be a dangerous and silly thing to do in my opinion.

Groundswell is by definition unattributable ;), but a very senior member of the project team said..."one of the illogical aspects of Oxford is that we are trying to electrify the railway before we make the proposed track and signalling changes ^ which will almost certainly lead to some abortive work.... that the section of railway from Didcot to Oxford, RS4, was not worked on from an OLE perspective until Hendy has completed his report." 

So logically, if the people are taken off the project to work on GW mainline, then Oxford electrification slips to the right.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on October 06, 2015, 06:16:00 pm
Perhaps this thread needs to be re-named again to "Class 387 coming to Thames Valley (eventually)"

Railway industry groundswell indicates that Oxford - Didcot route electrification will most likely be a casualty of the Hendy report, and completion delayed until CP6.  Effort will be kept up to electrify from Reading to Didcot for rolling stock testing purposes and then to infill from Maidenhead to Reading for Crossrail then Didcot to Swindon.  Having all those expensive bi-mode IEP's land-locked in sidings with nowhere to go will be unacceptable to the DfT.  In the short term, on the juice to Swindon, on the diesel to Bristol.

I suspect we'll be keeping the Turbos for a while longer.  How that plays with GWR's overall rolling stock cascade plans will have to be seen.

The "Hendy Cuts" is a new one on me,

I don't think there will a cut in such major project, the service pattern of the TV services does not lend itself to a Didcot / Oxford Island indeed GWEP would have to provide stabling and booking on point at Didcot and the complexity of relocating staff from Oxford to Didcot it might slip a little so the focus can remain on the mainline, if anything the Reading Newbury line would be the one to park into CP6


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on October 06, 2015, 10:16:29 pm
Quote
if anything the Reading Newbury line would be the one to park into CP6

Not good news if that does come to pass on the B&H.

If it did, what would be the chances of some Turbo's displaced by other electrification being completed, being used to double-up/increase capacity as a short-term measure?

We see very few 4, 5 and 6-car combo's in this neck of the woods and there are definitely some services where it would be welcome (now, let alone in a few years!).

No doubt the above would impinge upon the cascade plans for these trains and won't happen either!


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on October 06, 2015, 11:11:58 pm
Groundswell is by definition unattributable ;), but a very senior member of the project team said..."one of the illogical aspects of Oxford is that we are trying to electrify the railway before we make the proposed track and signalling changes ^ which will almost certainly lead to some abortive work.... that the section of railway from Didcot to Oxford, RS4, was not worked on from an OLE perspective until Hendy has completed his report." 

So logically, if the people are taken off the project to work on GW mainline, then Oxford electrification slips to the right.

The situation at Oxford certainly isn't ideal, but with such a wide ranging electrification project it was always likely that some major station alterations would not be timed perfectly.  It's true that no work has been completed recently and that, as 'DidcotPunter' states there is no sign of steelwork yet.  However there is no sign of steelwork within the station limits at Didcot yet, or Cholsey, Goring, Pangbourne, Tilehurst or anywhere between Sonning Cutting and Maidenhead.  The support piles have been driven in at more than 50% of locations between Didcot and Oxford though, and the trenches dug for them at the majority of other locations.

The stabling implications at Oxford are important.  It would seem, to me, to be far more logical to pause the Reading-Newbury section (no depot, not all trains easily transferred to electric traction) than the Didcot-Oxford section where all the fast Oxford-Paddington trains and local services would be easily operated by electric trains and those that come from the Cotswolds would be bi-mode under electric traction.  Even if some of the knitting would have to be redone when/if Oxford station is rebuilt - let's not forget it remains unfunded.  That's if any pause is deemed necessary at all.

I really can't see how any review done seriously would consider the Oxford section as worth pausing, but then again I've been amazed at some decisions before, so who knows.  However, I will stick with what I said about rumours often being wrong.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on October 07, 2015, 07:28:11 am
Yes, the actual station rebuild is unfunded, but a lot of the resignalling (all that to the north of the station) for better access to EastWest/Chiltern to Bicester etc is funded & Chiltern will be pushing for it, including the redesign of the upside bays & relocation of the drivers depot


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on October 07, 2015, 07:43:32 am
Yes, but that hardly impacts on electrification at all as it is mostly beyond its limits.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on October 07, 2015, 08:00:41 am
All the sidings etc at the north end of the station will need wires, plus the crossovers etc...think you'll find most will be within limits


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: didcotdean on October 07, 2015, 09:13:34 am
It does make me wonder whether someone has had the 'clever' thought that the headline fast service from Oxford for some interim period could be to Marylebone with the Paddington route being only services from the Cotswolds and connections at Didcot and Reading from XC. Stopping service between Oxford and Didcot to be provided by a diesel shuttle etc, stopping services for PAD to be electric from Didcot and Reading, plus the new hourly (SWI)-DID-RDG-PAD service which could be EMU or SET.

Doesn't really solve the stabling, could overload DID, and gives no short term improvement in OXF. It is though the sort of thing that kind of looks good on paper  :)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on October 07, 2015, 10:00:26 am
Would overload Marylebone too


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: didcotdean on October 07, 2015, 10:12:53 am
I thought the Chiltern service is to be 2 trains an hour anyway though - or are you thinking about the station itself plus peak time?

It isn't at all difficult to pick holes in the above schema.



Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on October 07, 2015, 10:38:23 am
It is...but you suggest sending the two GWR fasts that way too


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: eightf48544 on October 07, 2015, 10:57:08 am
The Chiltern/GWR Oxford services could be diverted to Paddington either via the direct line to OOC or via the Greenford branch.

Keep the bean counters happy for months/years working out the revenue split!


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: didcotdean on October 07, 2015, 12:25:38 pm
It is...but you suggest sending the two GWR fasts that way too
No, in the clever (read stupid) concept above the Marylebone services replace the Paddington ones ... the trains that run present services would no longer be with GWR.

Of course you could run the bimodes, but they will be otherwise engaged on the main line.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on October 07, 2015, 01:02:27 pm
All the sidings etc at the north end of the station will need wires, plus the crossovers etc...think you'll find most will be within limits

Yes, but they're going to have to be modified anyway to allow for 10-car IEP's to stable.  Might as well electrify them at the same time surely?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on October 07, 2015, 03:45:02 pm
But that's the work rumour has it that's being delayed....so the wires will follow the delay....


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on October 07, 2015, 05:27:30 pm
I'm getting confused! So you're saying bi-mode IEP's won't be serving Oxford until the wires are up?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on October 07, 2015, 05:46:15 pm
That's the suggestion being made by the rumour....

BUT there's no reason why those can't drop the electric pick up at/around Didcot & make the way from there to Oxford/Cotswolds on the diesel engines. Instead of dropping the pickups in Oxford.

It's the 387s that wouldn't get beyond Didcot.....hence the suggestion of the fasts going via the Chiltern lines (it wouldn't work, granted)....but the problem of the Oxford fasts would need to be sorted.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on October 07, 2015, 05:50:06 pm
That's the suggestion being made by the rumour....

Right!  I think I'll await for the report from Peter Hendy to be released before I comment further...!  :D


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on October 07, 2015, 06:25:11 pm
Another possibility, they could always take all the 387s as planned but delay the 365s.  Then the latter could go for a decent overhaul...

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Oberon on October 07, 2015, 09:37:28 pm
If in CP6 it might be Reading-Bedwyn perhaps?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Rhydgaled on October 08, 2015, 09:47:25 am
Another possibility, they could always take all the 387s as planned but delay the 365s.  Then the latter could go for a decent overhaul...
I seem to recall reading in Modern Railways, correct me if I'm wrong, that the current operator of either the 365s or the 387s is expected to be unable to release them on time anyway, so a delay to the cascade of one of the two fleets may happen.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on October 08, 2015, 12:12:03 pm
Another possibility, they could always take all the 387s as planned but delay the 365s.  Then the latter could go for a decent overhaul...
I seem to recall reading in Modern Railways, correct me if I'm wrong, that the current operator of either the 365s or the 387s is expected to be unable to release them on time anyway, so a delay to the cascade of one of the two fleets may happen.
Yes, I think Modern Railways cast doubt on the progress of route clearance for 700s on the Great Northern.  That would mean the 365 release being delayed.  However discussions elsewhere suggested the problem only concerns the 700 shoe gear, so it may not be a huge problem to deal with.

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: eightf48544 on October 09, 2015, 12:02:54 pm
Yes, I think Modern Railways cast doubt on the progress of route clearance for 700s on the Great Northern.  That would mean the 365 release being delayed.  However discussions elsewhere suggested the problem only concerns the 700 shoe gear, so it may not be a huge problem to deal with.

Paul

if it's shoe gear it will be a huge problem for Thameslink how will they get South of the Thames?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: grahame on October 09, 2015, 12:13:35 pm
if it's shoe gear it will be a huge problem for Thameslink how will they get South of the Thames?

Isn't Reading station (for example) south of the Thames?  ;D ;D


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on October 09, 2015, 12:24:27 pm
Yes, I think Modern Railways cast doubt on the progress of route clearance for 700s on the Great Northern.  That would mean the 365 release being delayed.  However discussions elsewhere suggested the problem only concerns the 700 shoe gear, so it may not be a huge problem to deal with.

Paul

if it's shoe gear it will be a huge problem for Thameslink how will they get South of the Thames?

The line side equipment positioning, and ballast height, is already OK with shoegear all over the 'Southern'.   What they have to do on the GN is to actively make everything clear of the same shoegear.   The worst case scenario would be something fixed, such as a steel beam on an under-bridge.

This is all based on the assumption that Thameslink 700s will not retract the shoegear when on AC, which 377s and 387s do.

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on October 11, 2015, 04:51:00 pm
Another possibility, they could always take all the 387s as planned but delay the 365s.  Then the latter could go for a decent overhaul...
I seem to recall reading in Modern Railways, correct me if I'm wrong, that the current operator of either the 365s or the 387s is expected to be unable to release them on time anyway, so a delay to the cascade of one of the two fleets may happen.
Yes, I think Modern Railways cast doubt on the progress of route clearance for 700s on the Great Northern.  That would mean the 365 release being delayed.  However discussions elsewhere suggested the problem only concerns the 700 shoe gear, so it may not be a huge problem to deal with.

Paul

Its all rumour and speculation regarding the class 700 route clearance; there are some issues that need to be resolved however it is more about paperwork and documentation than anything to do with the infrastructure or the units themselves.

There is piece of work been going on about susceptibility of some non standard lengths of track circuits but that is not a major bit of work to resolve any issues flagged up.
There are some concerns over the new type of Pan used (the TSI compliant type) however this also effects a number of other recently introduced units.

Thameslink, Siemens and GTR have a team working on the introduction of the class 700, this team has been dealing with the introduction for a few years now so the known unknowns are being worked on.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: DidcotPunter on October 19, 2015, 06:09:26 pm
Had my first ride on a Class 387 on Saturday from Gatwick Airport to St Pancras Int Low Level. It'll be interesting to see the ride quality of these when they transfer to the GWML and get up to their 110mph max speed. On the Quarry lines between Redhill and Purley it was most definitely "lively" - this is the only bit of the Brighton Main Line where the train got up to any sort of decent speed - around 80mph was my estimate. OK I sat over the bogies on the motor coach so I wouldn't expect a smooth ride but the general jolting about was accompanied by numerous pronounced lurches, which I put down to condition of track, rather than the train. Reminded me of the bad old days under Railtrack when track maintenance felt like it was an optional extra. The GWML track seems to be better maintained now so hopefully the ride quality will improve when they transfer to their new home.

Overall the 387 seems good enough for an outer suburban train. 2+2 seating with a mix of mostly airline-style seating and some tables. The seats look like ironing boards but I personally found them quite comfortable for the 50 minute journey. They should be quite an improvement on the turbos on the Oxford/Newbury services but I wouldn't say that they're any better than the HSTs or 180s.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ellendune on October 19, 2015, 06:38:45 pm
... Reminded me of the bad old days under Railtrack when track maintenance felt like it was an optional extra.

That's what happens when you give the maintenance contract to someone who can set their own workload and get the client to pay (another contractor) to renew it when it gets too bad!



Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on October 19, 2015, 07:06:56 pm
... OK I sat over the bogies on the motor coach so I wouldn't expect a smooth ride...

Er, all the coaches on Electrostar variants have motors, except the one with the pantograph.  Have you got that the right way round?   ;D

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: DidcotPunter on October 19, 2015, 07:37:52 pm
... OK I sat over the bogies on the motor coach so I wouldn't expect a smooth ride...

Er, all the coaches on Electrostar variants have motors, except the one with the pantograph.  Have you got that the right way round?   ;D

Paul

Thanks Paul, I should have checked that  :D  It was definitely motored but I didn't notice the pantograph as we were running on third rail most of the way. I think we switched from DC to AC at City Thameslink but I headed straight for the exit at St Pancras and didn't glance at the train.

I'm obviously locked in a timewarp from when I used to travel to school on the Class 302 EMUs on the Southend line. Like all first generation BR EMUs they had a single motor coach and you certainly knew if you were travelling in it. Apart from all the electro-mechanical noises it rode like a sack of potatoes!


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: devon_metro on October 19, 2015, 09:16:43 pm
I've traveled London Bridge to Brighton and return on them and the ride quality is far superior to Desiros. Considerably less sideways motion. They are absolute rockets when on OHLE too!


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on October 20, 2015, 10:18:52 am
They are absolute rockets when on OHLE too!

They certainly are.  As are the Javelin units which have outstanding acceleration at lower speeds (0-60 in about 45 seconds I believe), so hopefully the SET trains will have similar performance - probably slightly reduced by the weight of the diesel engines of course.  It'll all help reduce journey times and delays over what the current diesel traction can offer.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on October 20, 2015, 10:49:45 am
I'm obviously locked in a timewarp from when I used to travel to school on the Class 302 EMUs on the Southend line. Like all first generation BR EMUs they had a single motor coach and you certainly knew if you were travelling in it. Apart from all the electro-mechanical noises it rode like a sack of potatoes!

Yes, it seems the BR standard for quite a while was a single motor coach, this can be seen in most EMUs of the era including the 442, where the motor coach was the middle of the five in the set.

Siemens and Bombardier have subsequently taken slightly different approaches though, with Siemens Desiro UK having both bogies motor fitted in each end car, with Bombardier normally having them spread fairly evenly throughout the train except in the PTSO.

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: DidcotPunter on October 20, 2015, 05:16:23 pm


Yes, it seems the BR standard for quite a while was a single motor coach, this can be seen in most EMUs of the era including the 442, where the motor coach was the middle of the five in the set.

Siemens and Bombardier have subsequently taken slightly different approaches though, with Siemens Desiro UK having both bogies motor fitted in each end car, with Bombardier normally having them spread fairly evenly throughout the train except in the PTSO.

Paul

I was standing opposite a 442 motor coach while waiting at Gatwick - must have put it into my mind. Interesting that the trend now is for EMU manufacturers to use distributed traction, though with different configurations. I guess that it improves adhesion. I can't recall exactly without looking it up but I thought that Hitachi have gone for the same with the 800s/IEPs, though with these the driving cars with pantograph and transformers are unpowered.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on October 20, 2015, 06:11:22 pm
I'm obviously locked in a timewarp from when I used to travel to school on the Class 302 EMUs on the Southend line. Like all first generation BR EMUs they had a single motor coach and you certainly knew if you were travelling in it. Apart from all the electro-mechanical noises it rode like a sack of potatoes!

Yes, it seems the BR standard for quite a while was a single motor coach, this can be seen in most EMUs of the era including the 442, where the motor coach was the middle of the five in the set.

Siemens and Bombardier have subsequently taken slightly different approaches though, with Siemens Desiro UK having both bogies motor fitted in each end car, with Bombardier normally having them spread fairly evenly throughout the train except in the PTSO.

Paul



Yes, it seems the BR standard for quite a while was a single motor coach, this can be seen in most EMUs of the era including the 442, where the motor coach was the middle of the five in the set.

Siemens and Bombardier have subsequently taken slightly different approaches though, with Siemens Desiro UK having both bogies motor fitted in each end car, with Bombardier normally having them spread fairly evenly throughout the train except in the PTSO.

Paul

I was standing opposite a 442 motor coach while waiting at Gatwick - must have put it into my mind. Interesting that the trend now is for EMU manufacturers to use distributed traction, though with different configurations. I guess that it improves adhesion. I can't recall exactly without looking it up but I thought that Hitachi have gone for the same with the 800s/IEPs, though with these the driving cars with pantograph and transformers are unpowered.


There has been a big change in technology since the last BR design of an EMU, high power static inverters that can produce poly phase alternating current has enabled the introduction of the much lighter AC ploy phase squirrel cage induction traction motors instead of the heavier DC series traction motors; this means it is easier to place traction motors on most boogies.  Distribution the traction motors also means less chance of wheel spin.

     


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ellendune on October 20, 2015, 07:05:47 pm
There has been a big change in technology since the last BR design of an EMU, high power static inverters that can produce poly phase alternating current has enabled the introduction of the much lighter AC ploy phase squirrel cage induction traction motors instead of the heavier DC series traction motors; this means it is easier to place traction motors on most boogies.  Distribution the traction motors also means less chance of wheel spin.

Phew - I am glad I paid attention in first year electrical engineering lectures!


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on October 20, 2015, 11:02:02 pm
... the introduction of the much lighter AC ploy phase squirrel cage induction traction motors ...

I can think of at least one of our Coffee Shop forum members who will be less than happy with that aspect ...  :o ::) :P


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on October 21, 2015, 09:38:45 am
Isn't there also something about cables between vehicles? The old overhead wire units had everything within one power car in the middle of the unit, while the third rail ones had a power car at each end of the set (to reduce the problems of gaps in the third rail). That way there were no power cables between vehicles - has there been a technical change about what can be done (or indeed, what's allowed to be done)?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on October 21, 2015, 10:41:25 am
Isn't there also something about cables between vehicles? The old overhead wire units had everything within one power car in the middle of the unit, while the third rail ones had a power car at each end of the set (to reduce the problems of gaps in the third rail). That way there were no power cables between vehicles - has there been a technical change about what can be done (or indeed, what's allowed to be done)?

There must have been certain changes, not least because the Pendolino passes 25 kV from the one raised pantograph to 2 or 3 transformers fitted throughout the train (in 9 or 11 car versions). 

In the case of DC pickup, the cars with the pick up shoes were not necessarily those with the traction motors, (the 442 being a good example, with shoes on all cars except the motor car).  As we have mentioned, most BR era DC units had a single motored car, wherever the pick up shoes happened to be, so must have had a DC connection between vehicles within the unit.

I think there might have been a rule whereby power wasn't connected between DC units working predominantly in tunnels, but could be on normal EMUs.

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Rhydgaled on October 21, 2015, 12:29:54 pm
Isn't there also something about cables between vehicles?
Not sure, but I think there was at some point because the APT-P (Advanced Passenger Train Prototype) had two power cars in the middle of the train (I think) rather than one at each end which would seem to be more sensible from a passenger's perspective.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on October 21, 2015, 02:28:27 pm
The Wikipedia entry about the APT says that:

Quote
Two power cars were necessary to maintain the design speeds over the northern banks with 12 coaches. Normally these would be situated at the front and rear of the train (as with the HST and TGV etc.) but, due to the design of the overhead line, a "wave" was set up in it by the front pantograph, thus causing problems for current collection from the rear unit. The obvious answer was an on-board 25 kV "roof-line" link to the rear power car but this was considered infeasible at the time.

So why was a roof-line link infeasible at the time, but quite OK nowadays?

The problem of two pantographs causing resonance is still with us - it was an issue when London Midland had some of their class 350s uprated for 110 mile/h operation. As a result, LM had to operate these as single 4-car trains instead of the 8-car ones that they'd wanted.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on October 21, 2015, 07:01:59 pm
The 25kV train bus will not link 2 pans together, there would be a big bang and flash as the train went over a neutral section  ;D

Modern trains (like the class 700) have a 400V 3 phase train wire with a bus section circuit breaker that allows the train to operate with only one pan up


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on October 21, 2015, 08:22:12 pm
The 25kV train bus will not link 2 pans together, there would be a big bang and flash as the train went over a neutral section  ;D

Modern trains (like the class 700) have a 400V 3 phase train wire with a bus section circuit breaker that allows the train to operate with only one pan up

Won't there still have to be a roof level 25kV bus line between the two transformer cars on the 700s though?

Agree the pans themselves can never be electrically linked, but with transformers in cars 2 and 11 of a 12 car train, either the inputs must be linked at 25 kV, or they must be separate and run with both pans up.   The train must be too long to run off one transformer.

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on October 21, 2015, 09:56:56 pm
The 25kV train bus will not link 2 pans together, there would be a big bang and flash as the train went over a neutral section  ;D

Modern trains (like the class 700) have a 400V 3 phase train wire with a bus section circuit breaker that allows the train to operate with only one pan up

Won't there still have to be a roof level 25kV bus line between the two transformer cars on the 700s though?

Agree the pans themselves can never be electrically linked, but with transformers in cars 2 and 11 of a 12 car train, either the inputs must be linked at 25 kV, or they must be separate and run with both pans up.   The train must be too long to run off one transformer.

Paul

There is no 25kV bus on the 700's

The 395's have a 25kV bus but not between units


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on October 22, 2015, 12:33:29 am
So will the 700s run with both pans up?

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on October 22, 2015, 06:45:15 pm
So will the 700s run with both pans up?

Paul

Yes, their performance especially the 12 car versions is reduced with only one pan up


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: stuving on October 22, 2015, 07:32:11 pm
There's am RSSB "Research Brief" on "Simulation and verification of results from 125mph current collection modelling for two pantographs" T841 - January 2011 (http://)

To summarise rather broadly, it concludes that 160 km/hr is OK with any spacing, but 200 km/hr isn't possible without major changes. 180 km/hr can be done with spacings of 50 m and 200 m, but in between (125 m) only with the right choice of pantograph design and/or slightly more cable tension

That should be true for any train, but the work was done to help with the IEP requirement. That includes:
Quote
3.8 Performance
It is accepted that 125mph may not be achieved under the following circumstances:
...
  • where, in the event of failure of the IEP Train, it is not possible to raise two pantographs at the maximum pantograph spacing permitted by the train formation. In this event, subject to the other provisos of this provision, at least 100mph must be achieved if the pantograph spacing is 75m or greater and no less than 80mph shall be achieved for lesser spacings; and
  • in the event that it is not possible to show compatibility between the pantograph and the infrastructure, when an IEP Train is operating with two pantographs raised, on any portion of the Great Western Main Line between Paddington and Airport Junction where the line speed is greater than 100mph. In this event, the IEP Train shall be capable of 100mph or the speed at which operation is shown to be compatible with the overhead line, whichever is greater.

That seems to suggest that two pantographs far enough apart (within the 207 m length of a 9-car train? Or the 312 m limit of train length, single or multiple-unit?) would permit 125 mph. Which is not what the RSSB found. There is more stuff about multi-unit trains, which hints that two units can be powered off one pantograph. But it doesn't say clearly either it is or isn't required to.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 02, 2015, 07:11:53 pm
Porterbrook have ordered another 80 Class 387 carriages:

http://www.porterbrook.co.uk/pages/corp2015.html#november2015 (http://www.porterbrook.co.uk/pages/corp2015.html#november2015)

Anyone care to speculate where they might end up?  No specific operator mentioned, though perhaps they could come to GWR if needed? 


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on November 02, 2015, 07:13:32 pm
Quote
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/traction-rolling-stock/single-view/view/porterbrook-orders-bombardier-emus-to-meet-future-demand.html
Quote
http://www.globalrailnews.com/2015/11/02/porterbrook-buys-more-trains-from-bombardier/

An additional 80 carriages for the class 387 are to be built
Quote
Porterbrook have not yet released how the new cars will be used.  So they could be 20 new four-car trains, or they could be used in longer consists or even to add cars to existing trains. All the company would say was that a number of parties have already expressed an interest in leasing this new fleet, notably Rail for London but also established operators and prospective bidders of upcoming franchises

Potentially there could be more 387s heading our way, or potentially (though I would have thought unlikely) have some of the existing units lengthened.


(Edit, II beat me to it by a minute, apologies for duplication)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: John R on November 02, 2015, 08:06:32 pm
That's one mighty speculative order, and surprising given the large numbers of Class 319s that will shortly be coming available and the slowdown in electrification. I can only assume that there is a high degree of confidence from discussions they have had that a taker will be found.

Has the C2C requirement for new stock been met yet? They are looking for 68 new carriages from 2019 - maybe a deal will be struck to introduce them earlier?



Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on November 02, 2015, 08:43:17 pm
Come to think of it, unless they somehow?? manage to find some slots for Paddington to Reading Semi-fasts on the main or crossover halfway or whatever, what exactly will they do with the 37 sets that come this way.

Assuming all electrification projects in the TV area go ahead, then I would assume Henley, Windsor, Basingstoke, Newbury stopper and Paddington to Oxford stoppers will be 365s or best part of.

This would require 4 half-hourly units (doubled, potentially trebled) running to Didcot/Swindon in the peaks, hourly to Newbury which I assume is the same frequency in the peaks, again running as an 8 car, and possibly hourly? to Oxford, ie those services which aren't going to continue on to the Cotswolds, again 8 car. This has me at around 20-24 units, most of which won't be used during the day. Yes some units may be required to do Oxford stoppers if they don't have enough 365s but it does to me seem a stretch to fully utilise all the 387s.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Visoflex on November 03, 2015, 03:59:32 pm
Porterbrook have ordered another 80 Class 387 carriages:

http://www.porterbrook.co.uk/pages/corp2015.html#november2015 (http://www.porterbrook.co.uk/pages/corp2015.html#november2015)

Anyone care to speculate where they might end up?  No specific operator mentioned, though perhaps they could come to GWR if needed? 

TfL West Anglia?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 11, 2016, 11:46:37 am
I'm hearing that the plan is to operate four extra trains between Hayes and Paddington, using 387s, from the May timetable change.  One in the morning and three in the evening. 

Hopefully they'll be 8 car trains.  That will be a very useful increase in capacity, prior to their full introduction in due course.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on January 11, 2016, 01:17:25 pm
You say extra, so that implies this won't free up some Turbo's to add capacity on other services?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on January 11, 2016, 02:38:32 pm
Porterbrook have ordered another 80 Class 387 carriages:

http://www.porterbrook.co.uk/pages/corp2015.html#november2015 (http://www.porterbrook.co.uk/pages/corp2015.html#november2015)

Anyone care to speculate where they might end up?  No specific operator mentioned, though perhaps they could come to GWR if needed? 

TfL West Anglia?

At the time this was news, hadn't TfL already confirmed their West Anglia fleet from Bombardier.

Have we got another thread running with more recent discussion about the use of the 387s on Hayes and Harlington services as well?  I thought we had but haven't found it yet...

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 11, 2016, 03:05:31 pm
You say extra, so that implies this won't free up some Turbo's to add capacity on other services?

No, I don't think so - not at this early stage.  After all, there are no Hayes to Paddington services in the timetable currently.  But of course extra capacity will be provided for Hayes and Southall passengers on these additional trains which will of course make journeys to and from Ealing, West Drayton, etc. more pleasant for those passengers on the very busy services that run either side of these extra trains.

First units are scheduled to arrive in March, with empty training runs due to start in April.

Have we got another thread running with more recent discussion about the use of the 387s on Hayes and Harlington services as well?  I thought we had but haven't found it yet...

I think there was one covering the delays to the cascade in general, though this was the one I found first and is probably more suitable given that it's specific to the 387s.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on January 16, 2016, 10:44:50 am
I'm hearing that the plan is to operate four extra trains between Hayes and Paddington, using 387s, from the May timetable change.  One in the morning and three in the evening. 

Hopefully they'll be 8 car trains.

Not quite right - looks like 2 in the morning, three in the evening :-)

And if you want to travel on the first public electric service from Hayes, better get there for 0724 on the 16th May.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: eightf48544 on January 16, 2016, 11:25:34 am
And if you want to travel on the first public electric service from Hayes, better get there for 0724 on the 16th May.

I've travelled on an electric train several times on a Heathrow Connect could be considered a Hayes train as minimal passengers to/from Heathrow so it starts/leaves Hayes more or less empty.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on January 16, 2016, 11:33:13 am
Ok, guess I should have said "first electric GWR service, shouldn't I? :-)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on January 16, 2016, 12:51:29 pm
Ok, guess I should have said "first electric GWR service, shouldn't I? :-)

Bet the unit's livery will be either generic grey with or without Thameslink decals or Southern.  Maintenance wonder where that will be done, by Siemens at HEX, GWR at OOC but the fitters there will be looking for the diesel filler  ;D (only jesting guys at OOC) or dead hauled around the NLL / WWL via the Poplars; although North Pole is an option via the WLL


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on January 16, 2016, 01:31:39 pm
They'll have 6 weeks-ish to get it done, so its possible


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on January 17, 2016, 10:29:12 am
Ok, guess I should have said "first electric GWR service, shouldn't I? :-)

Bet the unit's livery will be either generic grey with or without Thameslink decals or Southern.  
I think the overall livery is 'Southern white', but without the end vinyls which are mainly green.  Doors are as current Southern, but branding is just the small Thameslink logo.  The latter should be removable easily.  Picture here on wiki:  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_387#/media/File%3AClass_387_at_Luton.jpg

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 17, 2016, 06:01:52 pm
I'm hearing that the plan is to operate four extra trains between Hayes and Paddington, using 387s, from the May timetable change.  One in the morning and three in the evening. 

Not quite right - looks like 2 in the morning, three in the evening :-)

Great stuff - the more the better!


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on January 18, 2016, 03:26:39 pm
And if you want to travel on the first GWR public electric service from Hayes, better get there for 0724 on the 16th May.

An update - better make that 0718.....

And from Jan17 (not Dec16 - will need a crossover constructed over Xmas 16 at Hayes East), there will be 2x8car EMUs hourly Hayes<>PAD


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 18, 2016, 05:12:37 pm
I'm guessing the crossover east of Hayes will be to allow for the use of the newly extended bay platform with these 8-car trains.  It could not be extended to that length without alterations to the track layout.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: SandTEngineer on January 18, 2016, 09:18:11 pm
The Bay Platform at Hayes and Harlington is being extended at the country (Reading) end to make the platform 218m long.  The entry points from the Up Relief to the Bay Platform are being relaid to increase the PSR from 15mph to 25mph.  A new facing crossover between the Down Relief and Up Relief is being provided just East of the station to avoid trains having to run in the Down direction on the Up Relief all the way from Southall West Junction to Hayes and Harlington to access the Bay Platform as exists today (but that is not really needed until the full Crossrail service starts).


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on January 18, 2016, 09:56:07 pm
Also the work on platforms 13 & 14 at Padd must be to accommodate the 8 car trains.  There is some steel works laying around under Bishops Bridge Rd which looks like its there for these platforms.

To generate the paths out of Padd I guess the new bay at West Ealing will need to be completed to allow the Greenford to shuttle


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: John R on January 18, 2016, 10:08:41 pm
Sorry if I'm being a bit dense here but once Crossrail is up and running what will be the purpose of the bay?  I thought I read that West Drayton was going to be the start/end of peak short workings. 


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Surrey 455 on January 18, 2016, 10:22:04 pm
The Bay Platform at Hayes and Harlington is being extended at the country (Reading) end to make the platform 218m long. 

The distance between the existing buffers and the station toilets is 20 metres. Is that going to be enough space to lengthen the track?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: SandTEngineer on January 18, 2016, 10:24:33 pm
The Bay Platform at Hayes and Harlington is being extended at the country (Reading) end to make the platform 218m long. 

The distance between the existing buffers and the station toilets is 20 metres. Is that going to be enough space to lengthen the track?

The signalling scheme plan I have access to shows the track extending as far as the end of the Up Relief platform country end ramp (Through the site of the existing footbridge steps etc.?).


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Surrey 455 on January 18, 2016, 10:37:29 pm
Oh
The Bay Platform at Hayes and Harlington is being extended at the country (Reading) end to make the platform 218m long. 

The distance between the existing buffers and the station toilets is 20 metres. Is that going to be enough space to lengthen the track?

The signalling scheme plan I have access to shows the track extending as far as the end of the Up Relief platform country end ramp (Through the site of the existing footbridge steps etc.?).

Oh ok, there was work over Christmas so perhaps platform 5 and track were moved. Previously the platform was to the side of the footbridge.

https://goo.gl/maps/rWU6kpgRveB2




Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: stuving on January 18, 2016, 11:49:21 pm
The Bay Platform at Hayes and Harlington is being extended at the country (Reading) end to make the platform 218m long. 

The distance between the existing buffers and the station toilets is 20 metres. Is that going to be enough space to lengthen the track?

The signalling scheme plan I have access to shows the track extending as far as the end of the Up Relief platform country end ramp (Through the site of the existing footbridge steps etc.?).

Crossrail drawing 318 shows that the platform is significantly widened, so the bay track is on top of the old siding (or headshunt) and goes on to take over at least 200 m of the goods loop before it joins the Up Crossrail. The bay platform is also extended a little at its east end, where the through platforms are being extended a lot more. Those drawings do not show any new crossover, though, so that must be an afterthought. 


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on January 18, 2016, 11:54:27 pm
To generate the paths out of Padd I guess the new bay at West Ealing will need to be completed to allow the Greenford to shuttle
That has already been confirmed as a prerequisite due in May 2016, it's in the direct award stakeholder brief.

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 19, 2016, 09:59:54 am
Crossrail drawing 318 shows that the platform is significantly widened, so the bay track is on top of the old siding (or headshunt) and goes on to take over at least 200 m of the goods loop before it joins the Up Crossrail. The bay platform is also extended a little at its east end, where the through platforms are being extended a lot more. Those drawings do not show any new crossover, though, so that must be an afterthought. 

Yes, that tarries with what can currently be seen on the ground.  If you look at the current Google Earth image you can see a short section of that new track finishing in a shiny red stop block.  There is new track laid further along the alignment of the old Hayes Up Siding now which allows for the platforms to be extended westwards by at least 20 metres, maybe slightly more if it can go behind the station buildings.  The old platform was quite long anyway at 171m, so the remaining 25-30 metres required will probably be at the eastern end with the junction on to the main line the other side of the canal to allow for that extension and a higher speed turnout.

Is the western end entry to Hayes Up Goods Loop (and the stone terminal) altered on your signalling diagrams SandT Engineer?  It looks like it would have to be to allow the above layout?

Sorry if I'm being a bit dense here but once Crossrail is up and running what will be the purpose of the bay?  I thought I read that West Drayton was going to be the start/end of peak short workings. 

I guess when its up and running it will be mostly used as it is now - for when things have gone wrong and trains can't get through to Heathrow or West Drayton.  Though in the intervening years it looks like it will become very useful for these extra Hayes to London EMU services.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: W5tRailfinder on January 19, 2016, 03:54:41 pm
If you look at the planning application for Hayes and Harlington Station works on the Hillingdon council planning site, you will see that Platform 5 platform face will be 237.65 metres and the existing buildings on Platform 4 will be removed.

Of course, if you read the Environmental Statement of the Crossrail Act 2007, it states that Platform 5 was to be a through platform connecting with the Up Airport Relief from Stockley Flyover. To save costs, the rebuilding of Station Road bridge, this idea was eventually dropped. I wonder if the present arrangement has been future proofed.

At Christmas, the connection between the Down Relief and the current Up Airport (to become the Down Airport Relief) was made. This new connection was used last weekend when the main lines were closed.

Back to the 387s, with TPWS to be installed on the Heathrow Branch, could the 387s be extended from Hayes to the Airport Terminal 4, especially once Stockley Flyover is completed? With Heathrow Connect also diverted from T5 to T4, they could then dispense with the existing shuttle. (By the way I work at Heathrow and use the Connect service - as an airport worker you only pay ^1.50 from H&H).


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on January 19, 2016, 06:14:54 pm
Sorry if I'm being a bit dense here but once Crossrail is up and running what will be the purpose of the bay?  I thought I read that West Drayton was going to be the start/end of peak short workings. 

Perturbation, in the event the Heathrow branch is blocked it allows Heathrow trains to terminate and reverse.  Also if there is an incident further west on the Reliefs it will also allow Crossrail trains to terminate and reverse


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: SandTEngineer on January 19, 2016, 06:21:02 pm
Is the western end entry to Hayes Up Goods Loop (and the stone terminal) altered on your signalling diagrams SandT Engineer?  It looks like it would have to be to allow the above layout?
There is no alteration shown to the existing Hayes Up Goods Line S&C connections.  The entry points on the Up Relief are between the Bay Line points and the Up Relief end of the new facing crossover (Health Warning: The Signalling Scheme Plan version I have access to is dated 2010 so could be out of date)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: John R on January 19, 2016, 06:59:22 pm
Sorry if I'm being a bit dense here but once Crossrail is up and running what will be the purpose of the bay?  I thought I read that West Drayton was going to be the start/end of peak short workings. 

Perturbation, in the event the Heathrow branch is blocked it allows Heathrow trains to terminate and reverse.  Also if there is an incident further west on the Reliefs it will also allow Crossrail trains to terminate and reverse

Thanks to both you and II for the clarification. It appears a bit OTT given there will be the ability to reverse just one station up the line, if its sole use (post 2019) will be as insurance against perturbation.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ellendune on January 19, 2016, 07:20:46 pm
Given how intensively the line will be used some insurance against perturbation would seem to be a necessity.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on January 20, 2016, 10:20:49 am
Sorry if I'm being a bit dense here but once Crossrail is up and running what will be the purpose of the bay?  I thought I read that West Drayton was going to be the start/end of peak short workings. 

Perturbation, in the event the Heathrow branch is blocked it allows Heathrow trains to terminate and reverse.  Also if there is an incident further west on the Reliefs it will also allow Crossrail trains to terminate and reverse

Thanks to both you and II for the clarification. It appears a bit OTT given there will be the ability to reverse just one station up the line, if its sole use (post 2019) will be as insurance against perturbation.

It seems a recent addition, the early Crossrail GW 'single line track diagram', that I downloaded quite a few years ago now, don't show any work at Hayes and Harlington station itself.  (Indeed it doesn't even show the 5th platform there at all.)

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: W5tRailfinder on February 24, 2016, 03:04:27 pm
I have added a topic on the Thames Valley branches board an item relating to the impact of the introduction of Class 387 on the Greenford Branch services.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on April 03, 2016, 11:32:04 am
I'm hearing that the plan is to operate four extra trains between Hayes and Paddington, using 387s, from the May timetable change.  One in the morning and three in the evening. 

I'm getting less and less confident that the May introduction will happen, given that we haven't received any of the trains yet and their is no agreement yet in place with the unions on a training programme which will allow the drivers to be trained on them and drive them.  Meetings this week I hear, but time is running out!


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: The Tall Controller on April 03, 2016, 12:48:27 pm
Talks are in progress with another operator to fill the void should the 387s be delayed. As it currently stands though, 387s are due to be running from May.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on April 03, 2016, 02:06:18 pm
Aren't the first of the class 700s starting passenger services from April 16th, I assumed that this would then free up a couple of 387s to head our way, giving them a month or so to practice with them and repaint (stick some GWR vinyls on)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on April 03, 2016, 02:27:20 pm
The ECS training specials were due to start running as of tomorrow, so if that's delayed by long, or no training agreement is reached soon, then there won't be time.  There will have to be a pool of at least 10 drivers trained to operate the planned services from May, all of which will have to be released and trained for several days without causing too many cancellations as a result of the Rest Day ban.  As well as the staffing concerns there are presumably all sorts of safety/operational cases to make as well before GWR are allowed to run them?  Like I say, time will quickly run out.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on April 03, 2016, 02:28:52 pm
The franchise agreement had six arriving by end of March, and four more by end of April.  They aren't significantly late on those dates yet.

GTR are already using unbranded red coloured Gat Ex 387/2s on their Thameslink routes vice 387/1s while some 387/1s are away being modified - it could be that there's a simple solution to their required numbers that involves retention of a few 442s for a few months longer than planned.

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on April 03, 2016, 06:37:02 pm
They appear to be planning some running before the month is out:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/V12179/2016/04/26/advanced


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on April 03, 2016, 08:19:09 pm
The ECS training specials were due to start running as of tomorrow, so if that's delayed by long, or no training agreement is reached soon, then there won't be time.  There will have to be a pool of at least 10 drivers trained to operate the planned services from May, all of which will have to be released and trained for several days without causing too many cancellations as a result of the Rest Day ban.  As well as the staffing concerns there are presumably all sorts of safety/operational cases to make as well before GWR are allowed to run them?  Like I say, time will quickly run out.


I would like to think the gauge clearance, platform stepping, signalling and traction power compatibility etc etc etc certificates oh and the Network Change will have been done by now, if it has not it can a protracted process not something that can be rushed,


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on April 04, 2016, 06:20:50 pm
On the assumption that enough Class 387/1^s will arrive to run the new Hayes stoppers from May, but GWR management will not be able to agree Driver training arrangements with ASLEF, is there a possibility that HEX traincrew will be used to run this service?  Presumably crossover training from HEX EMU^s is simpler than from GWR DMU^s.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on April 04, 2016, 06:21:51 pm
Who then drives the Hex trains?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ellendune on April 04, 2016, 06:24:06 pm
Who then drives the Hex trains?

Presumably he means the ones that normally drive the ones that are stuck in the depot doing nothing while Siemens sorts out how to fix them. 


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on April 04, 2016, 06:27:33 pm
Aren't they back in service? Think they are....


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on April 05, 2016, 10:12:15 am
Come on, let's be sensible here - how many driving turns are we talking about for the very limited service due to start in May? And how does that stack up against the number of train drivers that HEX employ, who are of course on C of E's that are not intertwined with historic manning agreements etc.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on April 05, 2016, 11:44:13 am
Why should HEX play ball?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on April 05, 2016, 11:48:16 am
Because GWR would pay for their services?  Don't think that it's too likely to happen though.  More likely is that the trains might operate as Turbos with other trains shortens as a result!


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on April 05, 2016, 11:51:05 am
Why would GWR do that? And why would HEX want to too? For 4 trains a day?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on April 05, 2016, 11:52:21 am
Well, because if they're public timetabled services, to cancel them would result in charter implications.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on April 05, 2016, 11:53:43 am
Because GWR would pay for their services? 

Apologies, I was referring to this part of your post....


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on April 05, 2016, 12:03:23 pm
I think there's a few too many hypothetical's in this one, but it's safe to say that GWR would not want 4+ trains a day cancelled for a prolonged period of time and would look at all sensible alternatives, which might include paying for the services of other TOC's drivers.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on April 05, 2016, 12:32:42 pm
I'd agree - but I think turbos are a probable better bet....


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on April 05, 2016, 12:43:38 pm
Indeed.  As I said myself in post #182.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on April 09, 2016, 02:59:18 pm
Talks are in progress with another operator to fill the void should the 387s be delayed. As it currently stands though, 387s are due to be running from May.

I understand that the introduction of Class 387/1^s on the new Hayes shuttles due to start in May will not now happen before September.  I do not know why.

How this new service will now be covered I do not know.  It is, however, worth noting that when the Connect services got cancelled to enable the units to cover the Class 332 problems, GWR stepped in to provide a local stations to/from Hayes service using Turbos and GWR staff.  So, in principle, there is no reason why HEX could not run the new Hayes shuttle if they can provide the necessary staff and units.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on April 09, 2016, 03:32:53 pm
Delays in releasing 387/1s from Southern because of some niggles with Thameslink 700 trials is the reason, I'm 99% certain of this based on posts in other forums.

However they aren't extra services, they run in the paths of the Greenford DMUs, between Paddington and West Ealing, the existing service would be curtailed to the new West Ealing bay platform while the EMUs operate.  So all they need to do is maintain the status quo beyond the May timetable change date.

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on April 09, 2016, 04:29:44 pm
Maintaining the status quo may be OK for passengers who currently use the Greenfords, but what about passengers at Hayes, Southall and Hanwell who are expecting (for example) the new 0718 Hayes ^ Padd which was due to be a 387/1 from May? 


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: eightf48544 on April 09, 2016, 04:49:24 pm
Just another example of the fragmented railway.

John Major's government thought they were going to reduce the power of the unions instead they handed ASLEF a blank cheque.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on April 09, 2016, 05:08:52 pm
Maintaining the status quo may be OK for passengers who currently use the Greenfords, but what about passengers at Hayes, Southall and Hanwell who are expecting (for example) the new 0718 Hayes ^ Padd which was due to be a 387/1 from May? 
Has it ever been announced locally yet?   Perhaps only a very small minority of normal existing passengers have even heard of realtimetrains and such like, so won't have a clue yet...

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: stuving on April 09, 2016, 05:46:49 pm
Maintaining the status quo may be OK for passengers who currently use the Greenfords, but what about passengers at Hayes, Southall and Hanwell who are expecting (for example) the new 0718 Hayes ^ Padd which was due to be a 387/1 from May? 
Has it ever been announced locally yet?   Perhaps only a very small minority of normal existing passengers have even heard of realtimetrains and such like, so won't have a clue yet...

Paul

It was in the (mini-)franchise material, wasn't it? So a few more may have read that, or it may have been passed on by local groups or all kinds.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on April 09, 2016, 09:49:12 pm
...........I can scarcely believe it..........delays on the railways?..........unheard of!  ::) ;D


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on April 09, 2016, 10:13:23 pm
Depends when or which version of the franchise info was read.  The DfT's consultation response has the Greenford changes not due until May next year...

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on April 11, 2016, 12:30:50 pm
Construction Enquirer reports the award of a contract to extend 43 platforms across the network where 12 car EMUS will be operating:

Quote
Network Rail has negotiated a ^23m contract with Hochtief (UK) Construction to deliver platform extensions in the Thames Valley from Paddington to Newbury, Oxford and associated branch lines.
This project will provide infrastructure capability enhancements to enable the operation of new longer electric trains.

Under present plans up to 43 platforms need to be extended to cope with class 365 and 387 EMUs operating up to 12-car in length over core and diversionary route sections.

Core routes include Paddington to Oxford, Slough to Windsor and Eton Central, Twyford to Henley, Reading to Newbury and Reading to Basingstoke.

Work is expected to be completed in phases up to June 2017

http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2016/04/11/hochtief-wins-23m-thames-valley-platform-extensions/

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on April 11, 2016, 12:56:47 pm
The platforms concerned are:

4 car length
Appleford ^ Platform 1 and 2.
Aldermaston ^ Platform 2.
Bramley ^ Platforms 1 and 2
Mortimer ^ Platform 1

8 car length
Tilehurst ^ Platforms 1, 2, 3 and 4
Pangbourne ^ Platforms 1 and 2.
Goring and Streatley ^ Platforms 1, 2, 3, 4
Cholsey ^ Platforms 1, 2, 3 and 4.
Culham ^ Platforms 1 and 2.
Radley ^ Platforms 1 and 2.
Reading West ^ Platform 2.
Theale ^ Platforms 1 and 2.
Thatcham ^ Platforms 1 and 2.
Iver ^ Platforms 4 (resurfacing)

12 car length
Slough ^ Platforms 2, 3, 4 and 5.
Maidenhead ^ Platforms 1, 2 ,3, 4 and 5.
Twyford ^ Platforms 1, 2 and 3.
Didcot - Platform 3 ^ funded by IEP but still delivers 12 car EMU capability

Presumably SDO will be used at some locations that would be very expensive to extend, such as Twyford's platform 4?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on April 11, 2016, 01:28:48 pm
Do the 387s have SDO currently fitted?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on April 11, 2016, 02:04:23 pm
Yes they do, the all-singing all-dancing type which has platform recognition software to stop the driver opening too many doors, or the doors on the wrong side.  Not so sure about the 365s though.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on April 11, 2016, 03:37:12 pm
Quote
Aldermaston ^ Platform 2

No expert, but if one of Aldermaston's platforms needs extending, I would have thought one or both would need to be at Midgham also?

At Thatcham, the extensions would need to be towards the east, due to the level crossing at the western end - a 6-car Turbo can fit today I believe (although we don't see them very often), so not too much extending to do here anyway.

That is a lot of Stations to get done in just over a year though  ;)



Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on April 11, 2016, 03:46:08 pm
Quote
Aldermaston ^ Platform 2
No expert, but if one of Aldermaston's platforms needs extending, I would have thought one or both would need to be at Midgham also?

Aldermaston has a length of 115m on the other platform, but just 80m on Platform 2.  So a few extra metres will be needed on just the one platforms for a 4-car train.  Midgham's are 97m/117m so OK as they are.

That is a lot of Stations to get done in just over a year though  ;)

Yes, it certainly is!


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: bignosemac on April 11, 2016, 04:58:34 pm
Hopefully Thames Valley Class 387 drivers won't take similar unilateral action as this GatEx driver appeared to do:

http://www.crawleynews.co.uk/Gatwick-Express-driver-refuses-pick-passengers/story-29089301-detail/story.html


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on April 11, 2016, 05:28:04 pm
Quote
Aldermaston has a length of 115m on the other platform, but just 80m on Platform 2.  So a few extra metres will be needed on just the one platforms for a 4-car train.  Midgham's are 97m/117m so OK as they are.

Thanks for that. So is this also saying that the "smaller" stations on the B&H between RDG and NBY (eg, Midgham) will only get calls from 4 coach EMU's, whereas the likes of THA and THE will get 8-coachers that won't stop at the "smaller" stations - or will it all be managed by SDO?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on April 11, 2016, 05:45:36 pm
Thanks for that. So is this also saying that the "smaller" stations on the B&H between RDG and NBY (eg, Midgham) will only get calls from 4 coach EMU's, whereas the likes of THA and THE will get 8-coachers that won't stop at the "smaller" stations - or will it all be managed by SDO?

The question of SDO (which will be carriage level Auto SDO on the 387s as Industry Insider mentioned) won't apply to the 365 operated routes, as they are non-gangwayed trains.  I'd expect that as they are the slower units they'd be used on the minor branches, such as Reading to Basingstoke, and will not usually be longer than 4 car.

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on April 12, 2016, 10:01:39 am
Thanks for that. So is this also saying that the "smaller" stations on the B&H between RDG and NBY (eg, Midgham) will only get calls from 4 coach EMU's, whereas the likes of THA and THE will get 8-coachers that won't stop at the "smaller" stations - or will it all be managed by SDO?

I would expect that to be the case, yes.  After all (HST's aside) nothing longer than 3-car length currently operates on the B&H route out as far as Bedwyn (save for ECS moves, or train in service but the rear section locked out of use).  You also have the issue of Platforms 1, 2, and 3 at Reading not being long enough for an 8-car train.

So, I would expect the hourly Reading to Newbury stoppers to be 4-car EMU's, quite possibly Class 365s, and that then leaves the Paddington to Newbury semi-fasts operating with either 5-car Bi-modes (and continuing to Westbury), or as 4/8 car Class 387s as far an Newbury with stops at Theale, Thatcham and Newbury.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on April 24, 2016, 06:17:38 pm
Picture of a 387 vehicle for GWR here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/69454073@N05/26498845592/in/dateposted/

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on April 25, 2016, 06:36:06 pm
Quote
How this new service will now be covered I do not know.  It is, however, worth noting that when the Connect services got cancelled to enable the units to cover the Class 332 problems, GWR stepped in to provide a local stations to/from Hayes service using Turbos and GWR staff.

Judging from the new E1 timetable that has now been uploaded, it appears they haven't covered the new service.

Quote
However they aren't extra services, they run in the paths of the Greenford DMUs, between Paddington and West Ealing, the existing service would be curtailed to the new West Ealing bay platform while the EMUs operate.  So all they need to do is maintain the status quo beyond the May timetable change date.

Appears Paul is spot on, and the half-hourly full service from Paddington to Greenford will run as at present.

Quote
Maintaining the status quo may be OK for passengers who currently use the Greenfords, but what about passengers at Hayes, Southall and Hanwell who are expecting (for example) the new 0718 Hayes ^ Padd which was due to be a 387/1 from May?

Tough luck by the looks of it. We'll just have to wait until September? presumably.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on April 25, 2016, 06:42:10 pm
I posted a few days ago (I guess in the wrong thread) that they're postponed till September


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on April 25, 2016, 06:48:50 pm
Yes you did...
Quote
The additional Hayes-Pad electric services have been postponed & will now start in September

From here: http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=5066.msg194233#msg194233


Although I was referring to the fact about whether the Greenford services would still be curtailed or not and whether the Hayes shuttle would still run (using a turbo)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on April 25, 2016, 07:07:07 pm
I posted a few days ago (I guess in the wrong thread) that they're postponed till September

.............another delay!  >:(


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on April 25, 2016, 07:23:56 pm
I understood no other changes until then. So Greenfords are ok


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on May 13, 2016, 03:52:56 pm
The first photo of the first new build 387 from Modern Railways twitter feed


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on May 13, 2016, 04:24:46 pm
Still set up for DC pickup then.   That'll come in handy on the "Gatwicks" at some time in the future.

(Or on diversions into Waterloo, or extensions beyond Basingstoke, or various other fantasy schemes...)

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on May 13, 2016, 05:43:54 pm
Could this not have been added to the existing class 387 thread?
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=14927.0


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on May 13, 2016, 07:58:16 pm
Still set up for DC pickup then.   That'll come in handy on the "Gatwicks" at some time in the future.

(Or on diversions into Waterloo, or extensions beyond Basingstoke, or various other fantasy schemes...)

Paul

Standard build I suspect easier to leave them as contracted than to vary to contract, the shoe beam can be removed later.

Also I suspect initially the Unit will be maintained at Selhurst until the GWR depots get skilled up and set up to maintain them, so the shoe gear will be needed to run them out of North Pole and along the West London Line


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on May 13, 2016, 08:36:40 pm
Are these to be maintained at North Pole? Thought they are replacing the turbos in Reading


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on May 13, 2016, 09:24:08 pm
Are these to be maintained at North Pole? Thought they are replacing the turbos in Reading
Will do in the longer term, but the initial Padd Hayes service will not have wires to Reading, the only electrified route on and off of the GWML is via North Pole onto the West London Line, which is still signalled, and wired 25kV with the transition to 3rd rail at Westway


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on May 13, 2016, 11:08:01 pm
Could this not have been added to the existing class 387 thread?
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=14927.0

Yes, fair point - and it now has been moved and merged, in the interests of continuity and ease of future reference.  ;)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ellendune on May 14, 2016, 08:44:07 am
Are these to be maintained at North Pole? Thought they are replacing the turbos in Reading

It was suggested below that North pole is only the route for getting them to Selhurst rather than being the place where maintenance would be carried out initially. 

Also I suspect initially the Unit will be maintained at Selhurst until the GWR depots get skilled up and set up to maintain them, so the shoe gear will be needed to run them out of North Pole and along the West London Line


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: John R on May 28, 2016, 12:18:57 pm
I don't think this has been mentioned elsewhere, but there is a very confident story in Modern Railways this month that GWR will not be getting the GTR 387's after all, but will be getting 37 brand shiny new units instead. 8 of these are the ones currently under construction, to be followed by the remaining 14 from the Porterbrook speculative build, topped up by an additional order of 15 units. 

Good news for Bombardier if this is the case - the incremental extensions to the production line all add up to a tidy volume.

The report also suggests that GWR are cooling on the Class 365s, and would prefer a further build of AT300s.  Also that they are still looking at a few hybrid Class 387s!

The final point to note is that this will be the last order for the Class 387 in their current form. All the cabs have to be built by the end of September else they won't comply with updated crashworthiness regulations.  Quite who sees fit to demand a further increase in crashworthiness is beyond me, given that the recent safety record on the railways would suggest that the incremental benefit must be miniscule. 


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on May 28, 2016, 12:33:26 pm
The final point to note is that this will be the last order for the Class 387 in their current form. All the cabs have to be built by the end of September else they won't comply with updated crashworthiness regulations.  Quite who sees fit to demand a further increase in crashworthiness is beyond me, given that the recent safety record on the railways would suggest that the incremental benefit must be miniscule. 

There was some discussion of this in wnxx, and I saw some doubt about the cut off date, with a well placed insider saying it is actually September 2017.   But in any case the cab sub assemblies only have to be started, they don't have to be fitted onto units at that date.

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 29, 2016, 09:45:41 am
It would certainly make things a little easier if they're all new build as the internal colour scheme can be fitted out as GWR want it with no modifications on the (admittedly fairly neutral) GTR interiors.  Bit puzzled why AT300s would be preferred to 365s though?  The 365s were to become part of the suburban fleet for which the AT300s would be unsuitable, and we're always being told how stupidly expensive to lease the Hitachi trains are going to be?

The scenario I could see developing is that electrification is being delayed so much that the 387s would be able to cover what diagrams are needed until the Class 345 Elizabeth Line trains start to take over the majority of the suburban services in 2019, when the 387s would then be able to cover delayed electrification routes such as Oxford, so there would be no need for 365s in that event.  Perhaps a few more AT300s could then be obtained to deal with any capacity shortages on the main line services?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on May 29, 2016, 10:15:02 am
How realistic/practical is it to make a few Class 387^s into hybrids, and what would the time scale be?  Surely you can^t just stick a heavy diesel engine and alternator set under the frames?  I could see hybrid 387^s might be useful to cover the Didcot-Oxford gap and thus enable Oxford stoppers go to 387^s in December 2017, and also to keep the Bedwyn^s going as through trains. 

But is this really technically and financially viable?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: rogerw on May 29, 2016, 10:40:43 am
The cl 387 hybrids would have batteries and not diesel engines.  Useful for retaining through trains to Bedwyn, for example.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on May 29, 2016, 11:13:07 am
Good heavens, I hadn't thought of batteries, just shows how the technology is progressing.  What range, speed and acceleration are we looking at?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: grahame on May 29, 2016, 11:44:44 am
Good heavens, I hadn't thought of batteries, just shows how the technology is progressing.  What range, speed and acceleration are we looking at?

Some discussion on these units and tests at

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=14408

I would be very interested to see some recent stats and thoughts as to what they might cover.   Not only a question of distance on a single charge, but how quick to charge too.  Some Chinese trams are nor running on capacitors - charge at stops and pick up enough juice to get to next stop.   I have also heard suggestions around intermittent electrification along the lines of giving high speed bimodes a boost along the way where there's no expensive infrastructure work needed. And that leads me to think about recharging the Bedwyn service in the turn back siding, or stringing up a bit of spaghetti at Banbury.  No good if there's no a fast charge option ... can you imagine "This train is running 15 minutes late because we've had to stop and charge a flat battery"


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: stuving on May 29, 2016, 12:08:58 pm
I would be very interested to see some recent stats and thoughts as to what they might cover. 

In particular, the results coming out of that Harwich trail - has anyone seen anything? Bright ideas and experiments are one thing, but practical production machinery that will last twenty years or more takes a lot of extra work. Even outside the railways - and we all know how long change takes there. 


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: John R on May 29, 2016, 12:30:54 pm
As I understand it they charge when under the wires, so a relatively short journey from Newbury to Bedwyn and back would be fine.  Presumably there would be some indication in the cab to show the remaining mileage, to prevent a service running out of charge a mile from Newbury on the return run and blocking the line.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on May 29, 2016, 03:35:34 pm
Quote
I don't think this has been mentioned elsewhere, but there is a very confident story in Modern Railways this month that GWR will not be getting the GTR 387's after all, but will be getting 37 brand shiny new units instead. 8 of these are the ones currently under construction, to be followed by the remaining 14 from the Porterbrook speculative build, topped up by an additional order of 15 units. 

Thought I was keeping up with the latest details like this, but obviously not! Just been browsing other sites and they have been saying the same for the past couple of weeks. 37 brand new 387s heading to GWR instead of 8 new and 29 'almost new' ones .

Quote
The report also suggests that GWR are cooling on the Class 365s, and would prefer a further build of AT300s.
Quote
Bit puzzled why AT300s would be preferred to 365s though?

This is also mentioned. I always thought 37 x 387s and 21 x 365s were a little over the top, bearing in mind the introduction of the 'Crossrails' 345s as well.

A handful more AT300s I feel would be adequate cover for the 'loss' of the 365s. Just as II explains in the following:

The scenario I could see developing is that electrification is being delayed so much that the 377s would be able to cover what diagrams are needed until the Class 345 Elizabeth Line trains start to take over the majority of the suburban services in 2019, when the 377s would then be able to cover delayed electrification routes such as Oxford, so there would be no need for 365s in that event.  Perhaps a few more AT300s could then be obtained to deal with any capacity shortages on the main line services?

I take it you mean 387s?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 29, 2016, 03:44:23 pm
I take it you mean 387s?

Yes, thanks for the correction.  :-[


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on May 30, 2016, 09:44:44 am
Battery EMU^s may be OK for trundling around Suffolk branches, but are we really saying that a Class 387 on batteries could do, for example, a 26 mile round trip from Newbury to Bedwyn with 2 intermediate stops each way with reasonable acceleration and top speed on what is a 110 mph line?

And in winter there^s lighting and heating to come out of the batteries (unless you^re expected to keep your coat on west of Newbury).

I^m sure someone can calculate the stored energy required: there is of course a gentle falling gradient from Bedwyn to Newbury so a stranded 387 could maybe coast back to Newbury!


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: grahame on May 30, 2016, 10:18:26 am
Battery EMU^s may be OK for trundling around Suffolk branches, but are we really saying that a Class 387 on batteries could do, for example, a 26 mile round trip from Newbury to Bedwyn with 2 intermediate stops each way with reasonable acceleration and top speed on what is a 110 mph line?

I think the answer is that here on the forum we don't know.

We do know that Aberdeen to Ballater was 41 miles where the previous generation tried out a battery electric multiple unit.  Judging by the reports, there was (only) a charging station at each end and I see no reports / suggestions of it running out of juice during the run.

Top speed is a bit of a pink mackerel - with 6 miles, 3 miles and 5 miles between stops you're hardly likely to need something that reaches line speed for the local service.   Showing a clean pair of heels on leaving stops is important, though!

Could be we haven't heard too much about how the Harwich trial went because it was a flop.  On the other hand it could have been so successful that the commercial companies supporting it are keeping quiet to stay ahead of the game while they come up with a production-standard product.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Andrew1939 from West Oxon on May 30, 2016, 12:43:09 pm
A battery EMU could perhaps enable GWR's stated ambition to extend London to Oxford trains onto Hanborough as at present there is no intention to electrify byond Wolvercote


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: grahame on May 30, 2016, 01:24:26 pm
A battery EMU could perhaps enable GWR's stated ambition to extend London to Oxford trains onto Hanborough as at present there is no intention to electrify byond Wolvercote

Ranging from the more obvious to the exotic ... some shorter distances off the to-be-electrified lines include:
Banbury
Basingstoke
Bedwyn
Bourne End
Brentford
Clifton Down
Colnbrook
Gatwick (**)
Hanborough
Henbury
Henley
Oxford Parkway
Maesteg (*)
Marlow
Windsor
Yate

* - different operator but GW electrification Cardiff to Bridgend
** - See "3rd Rail extension" discussions


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: eightf48544 on May 30, 2016, 03:44:06 pm
Graham, interesting list of possible destinations for Battery operation. however I wonder where some of the units would recharge given that only a short run would be under the wires.

So

Banbury yes through from Padd.
Basingstoke? Recharge Reading station not enough time?
Bedwyn yes through from Reading/Padd
Bourne End? through from Padd only
Brentford? recharge Southall? Parry People mover?
Clifton Down? recharge Temple Meads enough time?
Colnbrook could be served by Crossrail from their West Drayton terminators but their trains don't have batteries or toilets!
Gatwick (**) If 3 rail charging although whether Ash Shalford Jn would be enough to recharge to Reigate having done Wokingham  Ash.
Hanborough yes through from Padd
Henbury? would run to Filton be enough to charge?
Henley? through from Padd only
Oxford Parkway yes through from Padd/Reading but East West hopefully wired. Maybe they do Cowley Oxford on battery
Maesteg  yes through from Cardiff
Marlow NO needs short units!
Windsor NO where would they recharge? Not enough time at Slough
Yate  yes through from Temple Meads

Is it possible to charge at destinations? A short length of wire perhaps? Although you'd probably need more units and a layby to give enough time on charge. 

That's the problem with Slough - Windsor there's no layby and the turnround on the one unit 20 minute service is four minutes each end.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on May 30, 2016, 03:50:20 pm
Basingstoke, Windsor and Henley should be electrified in reasonable timescales and shouldn't really need to be concerned with battery operation.

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: didcotdean on May 30, 2016, 09:53:50 pm
The Seville tram runs through the historic parts on batteries and is charged at some stops as well as through the wired portion. A rather different kind of service though!


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: John R on May 30, 2016, 09:59:29 pm
The Seville tram runs through the historic parts on batteries and is charged at some stops as well as through the wired portion. A rather different kind of service though!
And indeed the Birmingham trams will do the same in a year or two it was recently announced. 


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on June 02, 2016, 06:54:39 pm
And so do the trams in Nice and I'm sure many other places.  But running a Class 387 on batteries on the main line, for example between Newbury and Bedwyn, is very different. To avoid public ridicule they would need timings and thus performance (ie acceleration and top speed) at least as good as a Turbo: they can't just accelerate up to 45 mph or whatever and then trundle along until the next stop.


   


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: John R on June 02, 2016, 09:10:44 pm
I would agree. I'm also not convinced about the economics.  Just looking at the Bedwyn service, how many units will need to be fitted with batteries to ensure cover for all services. Most of the time these will be on normal services carting around all that extra weight (not to mention the initial cost).  Might be easier/more cost effective just to string the wires up for the extra distance, particularly since the WoE AT300s will also benefit from the extra distance under the wires.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Billhere on June 05, 2016, 10:41:00 am
I would agree, but why stop at Bedwyn ? There is a large catchment area at Pewsey, many of whom now drive to Bedwyn and take up even more of the parking spaces at that location to the annoyance of the residents.

They would enjoy a far better service than is currently available.

In which case why not pop on down to Westbury as well, round the corner and down to Bathampton and voila through electrification. No doubt that will be the final aim, but remember thirty years ago the B and H from Southcote Junction was going to be a single line as far as Newbury, with a set of stop blocks under the Black Boys Bridge, everywhere else West being abandoned and track lifted. Only the lack of suitable paths for the stone trains via Swindon stopped it happening.

Bedwyn, what a strange place to stop the outer suburban route. I was told it was the home of Sir Felix Pole one of the top men of the GWR who required his train to London to start there.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 05, 2016, 10:50:10 am
I would agree, but why stop at Bedwyn ?

I think an hourly semi-fast service from Paddington to Westbury using one of the new Hitachi units (with some extending on as stoppers to Exeter), is much more likely than Class 387s on batteries, though if Westbury does get the wires then 387s might be a more logical choice then - but that's many years away still.  Alternative hours stopping at Kintbury and Bedwyn has been suggested for that route, with a Bedwyn to Newbury DMU shuttle likely to bump that up to an hourly service from those stations.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: John R on June 05, 2016, 11:27:20 am
I would agree, but why stop at Bedwyn ?
Because that's where the current service extends to.  There's a difference between maintaining an existing service and spending money to deliver a new one that may or may not prove worthwhile. Particularly in the current economic climate on the railways.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on June 05, 2016, 01:21:57 pm
Quote
Bedwyn, what a strange place to stop the outer suburban route.

It often strikes me that it is aswell, the Bedwyn's are both small villages (albeit well-heeled).

Purely historic reasons, and that it has a turn-back siding (albeit no use for anything longer than a 3 coach Turbo - AFAIK) should not be the basis for designing better services on this route.

5 car bi-modes running a semi-fast service to Westbury would benefit all Stations along the route, including those east of Newbury  ;)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: grahame on June 05, 2016, 01:58:09 pm
Quote
Bedwyn, what a strange place to stop the outer suburban route.

It often strikes me that it is as well, the Bedwyn's are both small villages (albeit well-heeled).

Bedwyn is also the railhead for Marlborough, population around 18,000 and boasts a rail link bus service from Bedwyn Station into the town. Quite unusually for buses that call at train stations, this one actually waits a bit if the train's late so that it's really much more of a "rail link" than many.

It should be noted that although Pewsey is just as close to Marlborough as Bedwyn, a journey from Marlborough to London via Pewsey involves doubling back on yourself, the train fare is higher and services less frequent.

There are calls for reinstatement of the line from Savernake (between Bedwyn and Pewsey) to Marlborough - see https://www.transitionmarlborough.org/Transport+Group+homepage for a link to the report at https://www.transitionmarlborough.org/tiki-download_wiki_attachment.php?attId=52 which makes their case.

Bedwyn Station should not be judged just purely on the local within walking / cycling distance, nor on the operational convenience of the turn back siding.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: John R on June 05, 2016, 02:05:59 pm
It also serves Hungerford en route remember, which has a respectable number of passengers. So not completely illogical to end the suburban service there, given the next station is another 9 miles further on, and the one beyond that a further 20 miles.  

I would agree though that any enhancement to the service would be most likely facilitated by use of 5 car bi-modes.  Given GWR are reportedly looking at an additional order of AT300s, this might not be completely out of the running.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on June 05, 2016, 02:35:49 pm
Quote from: Thatcham Crossing
5 car bi-modes running a semi-fast service to Westbury would benefit all Stations along the route, including those east of Newbury  ;)

You wouldn't happen to be referring to Thatcham would you?  ;)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on June 05, 2016, 10:55:08 pm
Quote
You wouldn't happen to be referring to Thatcham would you?  Wink

Indeed I would, our current mainly Turbo-operated semi-fasts seem to be getting busier and busier.

In answer to grahame, yes I'm aware of the bus link to Marlborough, but I think the point I (and others) are making that Bedwyn doesn't need to be the terminus for semi-fast services going forward (suggesting it should be somewhere further west) still stands.

That would of course be good news for Bedwyn, which AFAIK has very little westbound service today.



Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Oberon on June 06, 2016, 07:32:07 am
The sensible thing to do would be to reopen Savernake-Marlborough and build a large park & ride railhead-type station at the end of the line. Of course it would be electrified and have a day long semi-fast service to Paddington.

In my dreams..


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ellendune on June 06, 2016, 07:42:49 am
The sensible thing to do would be to reopen Savernake-Marlborough and build a large park & ride railhead-type station at the end of the line. Of course it would be electrified and have a day long semi-fast service to Paddington.

In my dreams..

The proposed Swindon terminators could be the semi-fast services.   Ahh we can dream


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Noggin on June 06, 2016, 11:10:38 am
It might perhaps make sense to extend the Bedwyn services and terminate them at Marlborough? I suspect that operationally and financially it would make much more sense if it were done as part of electrification though (387's to Marlborough), and of course it is always difficult politically to be spending money on areas that the rest of the country sees as 'privileged', even if it is justified commercially, traffic reduction and we all know there's plenty of deprivation in leafy rural areas too.

Electrification from Newbury to Westbury, Westbury to the GWML (and probably Westbury to Southamption) would appear to have a pretty good business case, if only on the grounds of switching freight haulage from diesel to electric, and getting rid of a few more DMUs.

I suppose the question is how good the business case is against other projects in the South West, and whether it makes it into CP6 or is relegated to CP7? The cynic in me says that despite an outwardly objective process, a lot of the CP6 programme is going to be aimed at marginal constituencies and keeping England blue. 


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on June 06, 2016, 11:20:18 am
Does Marlborough have a station or are you proposing they construct one in the same process?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 06, 2016, 11:30:49 am
The cynic in me says that despite an outwardly objective process, a lot of the CP6 programme is going to be aimed at marginal constituencies and keeping England blue. 

Does Marlborough have a station or are you proposing they construct one in the same process?

No station at Marlborough.  And about 5 miles of new track would have to be relaid.  Fortunately not much in the way of buildings built on the old formation, but there was at least one tunnel that would no doubt be costly to bring back into service.

Sadly, I've got a feeling a lot of the CP6 programme will be about finishing off stuff that was due to be done in CP5.  I'd be very surprised if any additional route reopening projects not currently at a fairly advanced planning stage (such as Bedford to Cambridge, March to Wisbech, or Bere Alston to Tavistock) made it into the CP6 pot, and even those could well fall back into CP7.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on June 06, 2016, 11:44:41 am
I hear NR are still hopeful of additional redoubling work around Hanborough on the Cotswold Line getting into CP6 in order that additional services from there to Oxford might run (which also would mean 387s being able to run north out of Oxford rather than terminating there)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Billhere on June 06, 2016, 08:49:07 pm
Purely historic reasons, and that it has a turn-back siding (albeit no use for anything longer than a 3 coach Turbo - AFAIK)

Takes a five car Turbo, but no walking route or safe way to change ends as the driver would have to walk either along the field side of the train at ground level (unacceptable), or walking along the Up Westbury which would have to be blocked by signal protection to let him move between the two units.

If the new trains are of the same length as a turbo (25 metres per car if I remember correctly) a five car would fit.

If they are considering DOO then the line West of Bedwyn is not set up for it, a situation that should have been remedied years ago, which would have allowed the extention of the Turbo service to Pewsey, and changing ends in Woodborough Loop as was done when they were vehicle handling when the Turbos were new and the Bedwyn turnback siding was occupied by the older DMU's. The decision not to do it was made by Victory Holdings ,who took over the service from NSE on privatisation, stayed a while and then sold out big style to the next owners (Go-Ahead), who never pursued it either.

I used to relieve Trevor at Pewsey when he went on holiday and the locals were always asking why they had such a poor service compared to Bedwyn, and the fact that many drove there to take advantage of the better service proves the point.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: grahame on June 06, 2016, 09:38:35 pm
Purely historic reasons, and that it has a turn-back siding (albeit no use for anything longer than a 3 coach Turbo - AFAIK)

I would refer "originally for historic reasons". The service terminating at Bedwyn may well have been due to the presence of the siding originally, but a distinctive traffic has built up and it's no longer just or purely history.

London's where it is for purely historic reasons by the same argument.  It's the first place where it was safe to cross the Thames up the estuary.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Billhere on June 06, 2016, 09:50:51 pm
I hear NR are still hopeful of additional redoubling work around Hanborough on the Cotswold Line getting into CP6 in order that additional services from there to Oxford might run (which also would mean 387s being able to run north out of Oxford rather than terminating there)

The work on the down loop between Oxford North Junction and Wolvercot seems to have ground to a halt according to colleagues at Oxford Panel.

The problem is there is a big relay room on what would have been the site of the continuation of the loop onto the Cotswolds line, a better idea than the existing plan which is to end the down loop just prior to the Wolvercot bridge and join the Down Chester. All you are doing is moving the bottleneck at North Junction about three miles.

Far better would be to retain the existing new crossover from the down loop onto the Down Chester, and extend the down loop under the bridge and onto the Cotswolds line. Far more flexible operationally.

That relay room may of course disappear when they re signal North of Oxford towards Banbury which as I understand it will be three aspect only instead of four aspect as they did North of Banbury some years ago. The old and worn out two aspect they have at the moment really is like a stranglehold on the line capacity and badly needs upgrading, along with the doubling of the Cotswolds from Wolvercot towards Charlbury.

Always a challenge to get it right on that section.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 07, 2016, 11:36:28 am
I hear NR are still hopeful of additional redoubling work around Hanborough on the Cotswold Line getting into CP6 in order that additional services from there to Oxford might run (which also would mean 387s being able to run north out of Oxford rather than terminating there)

The work on the down loop between Oxford North Junction and Wolvercot seems to have ground to a halt according to colleagues at Oxford Panel.

The problem is there is a big relay room on what would have been the site of the continuation of the loop onto the Cotswolds line, a better idea than the existing plan which is to end the down loop just prior to the Wolvercot bridge and join the Down Chester. All you are doing is moving the bottleneck at North Junction about three miles.

Far better would be to retain the existing new crossover from the down loop onto the Down Chester, and extend the down loop under the bridge and onto the Cotswolds line. Far more flexible operationally.

That relay room may of course disappear when they re signal North of Oxford towards Banbury which as I understand it will be three aspect only instead of four aspect as they did North of Banbury some years ago. The old and worn out two aspect they have at the moment really is like a stranglehold on the line capacity and badly needs upgrading, along with the doubling of the Cotswolds from Wolvercot towards Charlbury.

I believe Oxford Panel can't fit in the signalling required for the newly extended loop.  Oxford Panel was due to close originally in 2015, but I believe it is now 2018 so the loop won't be able to open until then.  That also restricts the possibility of modifying the Wolvercote Junction layout to provide the more flexible layout you describe.  Once Didcot controls the Oxford area then hopefully as and when Wolvercote Junction to Charlbury is redoubled (or to Hanborough at least) then Wolvercote Junction can be modified to provide that more flexible layout.

Yes, three aspect signalling from outside of the Oxford area to Kings Sutton AIUI.  The new signals are currently being installed from (roughly) Heyford to Banbury as the first stage.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Rhydgaled on June 07, 2016, 01:23:36 pm
If the new trains are of the same length as a turbo (25 metres per car if I remember correctly) a five car would fit.
The Turbo DMUs are 23m per car I thought, the new 800/801/802 EDMUs will be 25-26m per car (depending on where you measure from). The class 387 EMUs are either 23m or 20m per car probably.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on June 07, 2016, 04:48:56 pm
All in service Electrostar variants including the most recent 387/1 are 20m vehicles.

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on June 08, 2016, 10:51:23 am
I believe Oxford Panel can't fit in the signalling required for the newly extended loop.  Oxford Panel was due to close originally in 2015, but I believe it is now 2018 so the loop won't be able to open until then.  That also restricts the possibility of modifying the Wolvercote Junction layout to provide the more flexible layout you describe.  Once Didcot controls the Oxford area then hopefully as and when Wolvercote Junction to Charlbury is redoubled (or to Hanborough at least) then Wolvercote Junction can be modified to provide that more flexible layout.

I concur - and as CP6 starts in 2019, what I described above can still happen.

Quote
Yes, three aspect signalling from outside of the Oxford area to Kings Sutton AIUI.  The new signals are currently being installed from (roughly) Heyford to Banbury as the first stage.

Don't forget the change in Network Rail control is around Heyford - from TVSCC to Saltley....it's the Saltley work you describe. South of Heyford into TVSCC as you say has been delayed into 2018.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 08, 2016, 11:43:33 am
Don't forget the change in Network Rail control is around Heyford - from TVSCC to Saltley....it's the Saltley work you describe. South of Heyford into TVSCC as you say has been delayed into 2018.

Yes indeed, it forms the next stage of what originally was an Oxford-Leamington signalling upgrade, known as the Cherwell Valley Resignalling Scheme, stage one of which was completed back in 2004.  The new signals from Heyford to Banbury will be prefixed OL 'Oxford Leamington' as they are now northwards from Banbury and will significantly reduce headways.  Originally Leamington was to control the route, but now all going to the WMSC at Saltley.  The final stage of that original project will be Heyford to Oxford which should happen when Oxford panel finally closes.  Funny how the lines of an original project get blurred and altered by events over the years.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Noggin on June 08, 2016, 03:44:27 pm
Confirmed that going to be 37 new build 387's (as well as the 8 on order) rather than cascaded from Thameslink. First due into service on September 5 apparently.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/passenger/single-view/view/gwr-finalises-thames-valley-emu-order.html (http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/passenger/single-view/view/gwr-finalises-thames-valley-emu-order.html).





Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: DidcotPunter on June 09, 2016, 08:35:36 am
Confirmed that going to be 37 new build 387's (as well as the 8 on order) rather than cascaded from Thameslink. First due into service on September 5 apparently.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/passenger/single-view/view/gwr-finalises-thames-valley-emu-order.html (http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/passenger/single-view/view/gwr-finalises-thames-valley-emu-order.html).





And informed insiders on WNXX forum have confirmed that this means GWR will now not be taking refurbished class 365 units from the GN line.

Apparently GWR are negotiating with Hitachi and DfT for an number of additional AT300s to plug the shortfall between the 45 class 387 units on order and the 58 class 387/365 units originally specified in the DA franchise agreement. If approved, the AT300s will be used on the fast services terminating at Oxford (North Cotswold line services are already slated for IEP/AT300 working) which were originally down for class 387 working, and for through services from Padd to Bedwyn. Use of the bi-mode AT300s would overcome the problem of Didcot-Oxford wiring not being completed before 2019 and enable a through service to continue for Hungerford and Bedwyn users.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: grahame on June 09, 2016, 09:30:17 am
And informed insiders on WNXX forum have confirmed that this means GWR will now not be taking refurbished class 365 units from the GN line. ...

Informed insiders would find it very difficult to deny these stories  ;)

There is huge sense in having a single standard fleet (until a problems' found / check's needed on the whole fleet as happened with HEX)

Would I be right in saying that 387s are dual equipped - overhead and 3rd rail - so that (for example) the outer suburban services could be  diverted into Waterloo if there was a problem between Paddington and Reading?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on June 09, 2016, 09:33:05 am
As they're new build for GWR, I doubt it's included in the spec....but does anyone *know* for sure?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 09, 2016, 10:20:34 am
Apparently GWR are negotiating with Hitachi and DfT for an number of additional AT300s to plug the shortfall between the 45 class 387 units on order and the 58 class 387/365 units originally specified in the DA franchise agreement. If approved, the AT300s will be used on the fast services terminating at Oxford (North Cotswold line services are already slated for IEP/AT300 working) which were originally down for class 387 working, and for through services from Padd to Bedwyn. Use of the bi-mode AT300s would overcome the problem of Didcot-Oxford wiring not being completed before 2019 and enable a through service to continue for Hungerford and Bedwyn users.

Assuming that all comes to pass then it is an improved situation on what was already quite a good deal for GWR passengers:

As you say, the AT300's will allow the through Bedwyn services to continue - though I have a feeling that many will continue to Westbury or beyond - which was really awkward if Newbury to Bedwyn diesel shuttles had needed to be retained as originally planned.  The turnback at Bedwyn will need to be extended to accomodate a 5-car Hitachi unit.

The more trains with 125mph capability on the main lines the better, and with an all-new fleet of Class 387 and none of the much older Class 365s the eastern end of the GWR routes will have the most modern fleet in the country.  Most welcome news for passengers and staff.

I suspect the DfT is taking a bit of a hammering financially to make all this possible, due to the electrification delays!


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on June 09, 2016, 10:21:37 am
Quote
enable a through service to continue for Hungerford and Bedwyn users.

I'm assuming the turn back at Bedwyn would need modifying to accept 5 car units.

Having additional IEPs taking over the fast Oxfords and Newbury/Bedwyn/Westbury was always the sensible option, no need to mess around with battery operated 387s etc.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: DidcotPunter on June 09, 2016, 10:24:11 am


Informed insiders would find it very difficult to deny these stories  ;)

 ;D Very good! Of course there are informed insiders on here too!


There is huge sense in having a single standard fleet (until a problems' found / check's needed on the whole fleet as happened with HEX)


Agreed. The idea of a split fleet for what was essentially the LTV outer suburban services and the branches (inner suburban is going to Crossrail) seemed a bit daft to me. Also LTV will still be retaining some turbo units for the Marlow branch and Gatwick services, as well as a Didcot-Oxford stopping shuttle until Oxford is wired.


Would I be right in saying that 387s are dual equipped - overhead and 3rd rail - so that (for example) the outer suburban services could be  diverted into Waterloo if there was a problem between Paddington and Reading?

I think from the pictures I've seen that they are (there are clearly collector shoe beams on the driving car bogies), but I'm not expert on that. Any diversion into Waterloo would require the creation of a 25kV AC/750V DC interface at Reading New Junction on the connection with the down main or on the eastern underpass.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: DidcotPunter on June 09, 2016, 10:34:08 am

Assuming that all comes to pass then it is an improved situation on what was already quite a good deal for GWR passengers:

As you say, the AT300's will allow the through Bedwyn services to continue - though I have a feeling that many will continue to Westbury or beyond - which was really awkward if Newbury to Bedwyn diesel shuttles had needed to be retained as originally planned.  The turnback at Bedwyn will need to be extended to accomodate a 5-car Hitachi unit.

The more trains with 125mph capability on the main lines the better, and with an all-new fleet of Class 387 and none of the much older Class 365s the eastern end of the GWR routes will have the most modern fleet in the country.  Most welcome news for passengers and staff.

I suspect the DfT is taking a bit of a hammering financially to make all this possible, due to the electrification delays!

Indeed, if this now happens it will be excellent news for passengers and staff. A silver lining in the cloud surrounding the electrification delays.

You're not the only one suggesting the Bedwyn services might be extended to Westbury. Provided there are the IEP/AT300 units available this would be a sensible idea. Good connections at Westbury for passengers travelling west of Newbury and also might provide Pewsey with a decent service for the first time in living memory.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 09, 2016, 11:03:03 am
Yes indeed.  It's only really the historical reasons of the old Network SouthEast border being at Bedwyn, and DOO/CSR equipment not being fitted beyond Bedwyn that stopped the Turbo trains ever getting there.  It was mooted a few times over the years but never happened.

You might need to find two extra units to work the service, but with that you would get much better service resilience.  At the moment there is just seven minutes between arriving at Bedwyn from Paddington, doing the shunt to the other platform and then departing for London, so if a train from London arrives late, it departs late back to London! 

Connections west from Newbury and Hungerford would be massively improved, as would the service at Westbury and especially Pewsey.  One for the timetable planners hopefully...  :)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on June 09, 2016, 01:08:42 pm
As they're new build for GWR, I doubt it's included in the spec....but does anyone *know* for sure?

The pictures of GW liveried units from the follow on batch of 8 show that they have pickup shoes, but that doesn't mean the rest will.  But fitting shoes to a modern EMU is a fairly trivial matter, because they all have a DC stage in their traction power system.   Whether or not they come fitted would not prevent them being so fitted in future, if some cunning plan required then to run on DC lines somewhere near Reading for instance.

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Noggin on June 09, 2016, 01:11:58 pm
Yes indeed.  It's only really the historical reasons of the old Network SouthEast border being at Bedwyn, and DOO/CSR equipment not being fitted beyond Bedwyn that stopped the Turbo trains ever getting there.  It was mooted a few times over the years but never happened.

You might need to find two extra units to work the service, but with that you would get much better service resilience.  At the moment there is just seven minutes between arriving at Bedwyn from Paddington, doing the shunt to the other platform and then departing for London, so if a train from London arrives late, it departs late back to London! 

Connections west from Newbury and Hungerford would be massively improved, as would the service at Westbury and especially Pewsey.  One for the timetable planners hopefully...  :)

Don't forget also that the current Under Secretary of State for Transport just happens to be MP for Devizes, which covers Pewsey IIRC, not to mention that an awful lot of other constituencies elected Tory MPs at the last election.

I was also reminded this morning that the MP for Derbyshire Dales (i.e. the bit north of Derby) is Secretary of State for Transport. Can't have done much harm when it came to orders being sent Bombardier's way, particularly as Derby North is a pretty marginal seat (and even Derby South might be winnable if Margaret Beckett should step down).

AFAIK, pick-up shoes are generally fitted at manufacture to allow acceptance testing, then if not required, removed to facilitate maintenance, avoid damage from obstructions etc. But ultimately, the ROSCO owns a dual-voltage EMU that can be redeployed to a TOC where the shoegear is required.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on June 09, 2016, 01:18:34 pm
AFAIK, pick-up shoes are generally fitted at manufacture to allow acceptance testing, then if not required, removed to facilitate maintenance, avoid damage from obstructions etc.
Or in the case of the LM 350/1s they simply run around with their shoe gear permanently in the raised position, where it can't be seen behind the shoe beam unless you get down really low.

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: grahame on June 09, 2016, 07:20:19 pm
Yes indeed.  It's only really the historical reasons of the old Network SouthEast border being at Bedwyn, and DOO/CSR equipment not being fitted beyond Bedwyn that stopped the Turbo trains ever getting there.  It was mooted a few times over the years but never happened.

You might need to find two extra units to work the service, but with that you would get much better service resilience.  At the moment there is just seven minutes between arriving at Bedwyn from Paddington, doing the shunt to the other platform and then departing for London, so if a train from London arrives late, it departs late back to London! 

Connections west from Newbury and Hungerford would be massively improved, as would the service at Westbury and especially Pewsey.  One for the timetable planners hopefully...  :)

There have been various ideas mooted over the years.    A suggestion to extend to Westbury on existing stock levels, halving frequency west of Newbury, went down like a lead balloon.   Ideas of skipping stops alternately at Kintbury and Bedwyn were equally unpopular.   And a service needing more trains didn't sit too well with the people who have to sanction and pay for the hire of trains. People at Pewsey are less than enamoured by the current service with just a handful of stops being replaced by something that takes quite a bit longer and provides largely unwanted journey opportunities like Pewsey to Midgham, and people at Westbury have similar concern together with a worry that they'll loose service heading to The West as a result.

Anyone who can solve all that lot is - in my view - a genius!


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on June 10, 2016, 10:25:08 pm
Yes indeed.  It's only really the historical reasons of the old Network SouthEast border being at Bedwyn, and DOO/CSR equipment not being fitted beyond Bedwyn that stopped the Turbo trains ever getting there.  It was mooted a few times over the years but never happened.

You might need to find two extra units to work the service, but with that you would get much better service resilience.  At the moment there is just seven minutes between arriving at Bedwyn from Paddington, doing the shunt to the other platform and then departing for London, so if a train from London arrives late, it departs late back to London! 

Connections west from Newbury and Hungerford would be massively improved, as would the service at Westbury and especially Pewsey.  One for the timetable planners hopefully...  :)

There have been various ideas mooted over the years.    A suggestion to extend to Westbury on existing stock levels, halving frequency west of Newbury, went down like a lead balloon.   Ideas of skipping stops alternately at Kintbury and Bedwyn were equally unpopular.   And a service needing more trains didn't sit too well with the people who have to sanction and pay for the hire of trains. People at Pewsey are less than enamoured by the current service with just a handful of stops being replaced by something that takes quite a bit longer and provides largely unwanted journey opportunities like Pewsey to Midgham, and people at Westbury have similar concern together with a worry that they'll loose service heading to The West as a result.

Anyone who can solve all that lot is - in my view - a genius!

Future electrification to places like Westbury will have to be in part if not wholly locally sourced, some of it may come from central Government but the new funding model for NR means if a Local Authority wants an enhanced railway service in their area they can no longer demand its done.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on June 12, 2016, 01:25:04 pm
It has been mooted that the 387s will start running from 5th September. I notice on the train feeds they are down as running from the 1st August (Although of course these may not have been updated yet)
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C44181/2016/08/01/advanced
Quote
WTT schedule UID C44181, identity 2S07
Runs SSuX between 01/08/2016 to 09/12/2016


On the other hand perhaps training begins on the 1st August as there are a handful of ECS movements to/from Airport Junction also scheduled.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C58622/2016/08/01/advanced


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: LiskeardRich on June 12, 2016, 08:50:48 pm
It has been mooted that the 387s will start running from 5th September. I notice on the train feeds they are down as running from the 1st August (Although of course these may not have been updated yet)
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C44181/2016/08/01/advanced
Quote
WTT schedule UID C44181, identity 2S07
Runs SSuX between 01/08/2016 to 09/12/2016


That one says 165/6 DMU


Pathed as Class 165/1 or 166 (Turbo) DMU


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on June 12, 2016, 09:19:41 pm
Quote
Pathed as Class 165/1 or 166 (Turbo) DMU

They all do, same as the ones that were due to start in May, they are all pathed as 165/166 as the timings/speed will be the same.

If you follow the diagrams from the beginning to the end of the day they start/finish at North Pole, which is where the 387s will initially be based


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 13, 2016, 11:28:05 am
Yes, the pathing type can be completely different from the actual planned traction.  For example many of Chiltern's services are pathed as Class 158s (when they haven't got any!), and many of the Northern Electric services operated by Class 319s are still pathed for the old DMU's that used to operate them.

I should imagine the initial services are driver training runs, though there's still no deal in place for the training programme I hear that outstanding issues are pretty much resolved now.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on July 08, 2016, 12:47:39 am
The first GW unit, 387130, has been reported tonight as being delivered to Bletchley depot for its period of main line test running.

A successful couple of weeks at the temporary base should then see it arrive with GWR.

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 08, 2016, 11:14:03 am
A training deal with the unions and GWR is still not signed off, but 'close', so hopefully trains will be in place and drivers able to learn them (Paddington LTV depot first), so that the September date for the shuttle service can be achieved.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on July 14, 2016, 07:46:03 pm
Video of the initial two 387/1 on test passing through Purley:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FR-eWZZHC8M

Pictures of the pair at Brighton on mackenzieblu's flickr, there are some interior shots there as well:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mackenzieblu/28304081315/in/photostream/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/mackenzieblu/28270406996/in/photostream/

Hope this is of interest.

Paul



Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: grahame on July 15, 2016, 05:11:40 am
Video of the initial two 387/1 on test passing through Purley:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FR-eWZZHC8M

Pictures of the pair at Brighton on mackenzieblu's flickr, there are some interior shots there as well:


Well - that certainly confirms they have all the 3rd rail equipment fitted and and working (unless they've quietly been fitted with diesel engines too!)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Surrey 455 on July 15, 2016, 11:06:55 pm
Lets hope GWR haven't been teasing stressed out Southern passengers as the empty trains pass by.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on July 15, 2016, 11:45:24 pm
Not today, apparently they were seen on the WCML to Crewe and back...

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 16, 2016, 01:37:15 am
Yes, I saw two units at Crewe today.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on July 16, 2016, 07:54:40 am
Lets hope GWR haven't been teasing stressed out Southern passengers as the empty trains pass by.

Part of the entry into service process.  A new type of stock needs to do a lot of type testing this is determined by what the new stock is, then new units off of the production run that have been type tested need to run a prescribed mileage on the forms of traction power they operate on before they can be signed off for use


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on July 16, 2016, 12:36:44 pm
Found a photo taken near DIRFT (on the Northampton loop) during yesterdays test run to/from Crewe:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/chris-chaplin/28043771260/in/photostream/

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on July 23, 2016, 12:55:02 pm
Update based on info trawled from a number of other forums, is that 387130/131 continued on mileage runs during the week, and then 387132 and 387133 were delivered to Bletchley T.M.D. on Wednesday and Friday respectively.

There are also delivery paths available Mon - Thur next week, so the initial batch of GWR units may be around sooner than we think.

Just saw in another forum (uk modern EMU) that 387132 and 133 have been on an outing to Brighton for some DC testing today, Wed 27th.

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 28, 2016, 09:54:01 am
The first GWR unit(s) arriving at North Pole tonight I gather.  Let the revolution begin...  ;)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on July 28, 2016, 10:13:01 am
The first GWR unit(s) arriving at North Pole tonight I gather.  Let the revolution begin...  ;)

Cool  :)
I'm guessing this is it testing tonight between Paddington and Hayes:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/V19595/2016/07/29/advanced


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on July 28, 2016, 12:34:53 pm
There's now an STP path in the system from Bletchley, and heading to North Pole depot as has generally been predicted.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O15594/2016/07/28/advanced

this train then moves over to Paddington as per:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/V19620/2016/07/28/advanced

(That second path wasn't in when I first checked.)

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on July 28, 2016, 03:16:03 pm
The transfer path from Bletchley has subsequently been cancelled. 
...and reinstated under a different pseudo headcode.

I think I'll give up.

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 28, 2016, 07:31:53 pm
On their way.  Two units being hauled by a Class 37.  Presumably 130/131.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on July 28, 2016, 10:27:05 pm
I probably should have been paying attention earlier so apologies for that.....on which routes will these trains be operating & do they represent additional services/capacity or are Turbos being taken away?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Surrey 455 on July 28, 2016, 10:48:10 pm
Not sure if I'm reading this correctly but it seems to run through Southall station 3 times. I'm guessing it runs through the station heading west (1), reverses just west of the station passing through again (2). The third pass seems improbable from Acton to Ladbroke Grove via Southall  ???

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O15666/2016/07/28/advanced


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ellendune on July 28, 2016, 10:50:22 pm
IIUC they will take over the Paddington to Reading and Oxford/Newbury and together with the Crossrail trains they will, on these lines, replace the 165/166 which will be heading further West.  Until the branches are electrified they will retain the 165/166s.

Initially they will run Paddington to Hayes/Harlington using the path of the Greenford trains that will then be confined to the branch. These will be extra trains



Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 28, 2016, 11:26:12 pm
Adding to Ellendune's comments, but making it more specific to Taplow, they will run possibly from the middle of next year when the line out as far as Maidenhead is electrified.

They will run as 4 or 8 car formations on local services which in terms of numbers of seats (assuming an internal layout as per other 387s) is roughly equivalent to a 2.5 or 5 car Turbo.  The passenger environment is a massive step upwards from a Turbo though with much more room and more tables - similar to Chiltern's Class 168s if you've had the pleasure?  16 doors instead of 10/12 on the longest Turbo formations should mean dwell times at stations improve slightly and the fact they're electric will mean much quicker acceleration and there should be quite a leap forward in reliability.

They will probably only serve Taplow for a couple of years though, as when the Elizabeth Line opens fully in 2019 all trains are likely to be operated by their fleet of all 9-car trains.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on July 28, 2016, 11:30:44 pm
Thanks for your detailed update there, IndustryInsider.  :)



Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: eightf48544 on July 29, 2016, 09:22:46 am
As a Taplow user I'm can't wait for the 387s.

Also waiting for the howls of protest when commuters first see the Crossrail cattle trucks


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on July 29, 2016, 09:25:00 am
Thanks for your detailed update there, IndustryInsider.  :)



Seconded! Many thanks  :)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on July 29, 2016, 10:50:24 am
According to realtimetrains records there were 3 return runs between Paddington and Airport Jn overnight:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/PAD/2016/07/29/0000-2359?stp=S&show=all&order=wtt

There's another run showing as I post this info, but it doesn't seem to be happening, followed by a number of out and back runs to Friars Jn.

I wasn't familiar with "Friars Jn" but it seems to be a trailing crossover DR to UR at 3m 53ch, between Old Oak and Acton.

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 29, 2016, 11:12:51 am
Both units currently stabled on different roads in North Pole Depot.

IIRC Friars Junction used to be a slightly grander affair before the layout was modified to leave just the two sets of points. Now just used for access from the Relief Lines to the Reception Line (or whatever it's called).


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: a-driver on July 29, 2016, 11:42:24 am
As a Taplow user I'm can't wait for the 387s.

Also waiting for the howls of protest when commuters first see the Crossrail cattle trucks

Pictures of those awful cattle trucks you talk of!!

https://twitter.com/Clinnick1/status/758970928294273024 (https://twitter.com/Clinnick1/status/758970928294273024)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: chrisr_75 on July 29, 2016, 12:49:16 pm
As a Taplow user I'm can't wait for the 387s.

Also waiting for the howls of protest when commuters first see the Crossrail cattle trucks

Pictures of those awful cattle trucks you talk of!!

https://twitter.com/Clinnick1/status/758970928294273024 (https://twitter.com/Clinnick1/status/758970928294273024)

They look pretty good, the interior is very reminiscent of the new subsurface LUL stock with the seating arrangement. While I was sorry to see the A-stock disappear from the metropolitan line, the reality is the new trains are a significant improvement all round and also appear to be much easier to keep clean with the 'lino' type flooring and seats raised off the floor.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on July 29, 2016, 08:46:07 pm
Adding to Ellendune's comments, but making it more specific to Taplow, they will run possibly from the middle of next year when the line out as far as Maidenhead is electrified.

The last time I spoke to a college in the NR Crossrail electrification team they said all the wires will be run between Airport Jcn and Maidenhead by the end of November; I assumed he meant 2016 and not 2017  ;D   

There is still quite a bit of steel to go into the ground in places and to put up into the air, I suspect there will be a concerted effort during the Aug bank holiday.  I suspect a lot of the Overhead Linesmen have been deployed between Reading and Didcot of late.

The UK does have an acute shortage of Overhead Linesmen, most of the teams I have worked with are from elsewhere in the EU they travel here for a few weeks or even just the weekend (not sure how Brexit will effect this type of labour in the future, it is an item on some project risk registers for projects past 2018)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 29, 2016, 10:42:00 pm
Adding to Ellendune's comments, but making it more specific to Taplow, they will run possibly from the middle of next year when the line out as far as Maidenhead is electrified.

The last time I spoke to a college in the NR Crossrail electrification team they said all the wires will be run between Airport Jcn and Maidenhead by the end of November; I assumed he meant 2016 and not 2017  ;D   

Yes, I was erring on the side of caution there, but it could be early next year once the electrification is finished and gauging runs and staff training have taken place.  I believe all the wiring should be in place by the end of the year at the latest - well ahead of the revised Hendy dates from NR which is good news.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on July 30, 2016, 02:52:52 pm
Seem to be a few daylight test runs going on between Paddington and Airport Jn as of now, Saturday afternoon.   

May be of interest if anyone is in the area.

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on August 01, 2016, 12:18:30 pm
Found a reasonable youtube video of 387130 entering and leaving Paddington in daytime:

http://youtu.be/hYHqvQEi21I (http://youtu.be/hYHqvQEi21I)

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 07, 2016, 03:30:25 pm
A driver training agreement between the unions and GWR has finally been reached.  So proper driver training on them will be commencing next week ready for the September launch.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on August 10, 2016, 01:09:19 pm
Reports elsewhere that 2 more units (387132 and 133) have been delivered this week, moved separately this time on Monday and Tuesday evenings.

In other news, the magazine Today's Railways UK has reported that the GWR fleet will take on the consecutive numbers between 387130 and 387174, and deliveries will be complete in late summer 2017.

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: bobm on August 20, 2016, 08:23:55 pm
As suggested earlier in the thread, GWR have confirmed the first 387 in passenger service will be the 07:15 London Paddington to Hayes & Harlington on the 5th September, returning at 07:48.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on August 20, 2016, 10:38:50 pm
Quote
and deliveries will be complete in late summer 2017.

If that's all the 387's doesn't that mean that they're going to be distinctly under-utilised to begin with - I believe it'll be more than a year after that before they can run down the B&H to Newbury, for example?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 20, 2016, 11:47:04 pm
I imagine there will be a surplus, but how much depends on how they're utilised next spring when Maidenhead becomes available, and at the end of the year through to Didcot which will use up quite a few of them.  No excuses for not running them at maximum length anyway!  ;)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ellendune on August 20, 2016, 11:48:55 pm
Presumably untill cross rail starts they will cover some services that will eventually be covered by crossrail stock.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on August 21, 2016, 12:04:29 pm
Presumably untill cross rail starts they will cover some services that will eventually be covered by crossrail stock.

That's the published plan.   That GW direct award stakeholder brief that has been linked before (but I can't currently find online) gives an end date of May 2018 for the Hayes and Harlington service, to be replaced by Crossrail.

Heathrow Connect ends on the same date, so as you say the two pairs of trains per hour form the 4 tph Crossrail.   I'd be surprised if they won't run in the same or very similar paths.

In fact having just checked the Crossrail site the initial 4 tph runs to and from Paddington high level for the first 3 timetable changes, until Dec 2019;   so the initial service might just be a rolling stock change with any timetable changes coming later with the full service.

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 30, 2016, 05:20:34 pm
RAIL magazine have released some pictures to give all you Thames Valley commuters a taste of what the new trains look like inside.  Pretty swish I think -  2+2 seating throughout, power sockets, air-con (that works) and plenty of tables (27 in each 4-car train).

http://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/2016/08/29/gwr-shows-off-the-first-of-its-new-class-387-emus


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on August 30, 2016, 05:48:08 pm
Yes, they look to be a big improvement compared to the 165’s for us at Pangbourne etc.  Just hope that the post-Crossrail timetable links our service to the Padd- Maidenhead-Twyford- Reading service to give us a decent service to London.

I suspect that this step change improvement in comfort etc will not be matched by what long distance passengers see with the Class 80X’s taking over from HST’s.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 30, 2016, 06:11:48 pm
Just hope that the post-Crossrail timetable links our service to the Padd- Maidenhead-Twyford- Reading service to give us a decent service to London.

It would be logical for it to do so, at least until the Western Heathrow and East-West Rail Link is up and running.  No point in unnecessarily clogging up Reading's through platforms at both ends with trains terminating, so I can see the current 2tph service from Oxford to Paddington (starting from Didcot for a while, whilst electrification is completed) from the end of next year.  Improved journey times might then occur from the commencement of Crossrail in 2019 with stops like Langley, Iver, West Drayton and Southall taken out.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on August 31, 2016, 04:56:35 am
Agree II, very nice looking, look forward to them working further westwards in a couple of years. (And look, seat back tables, power sockets, arm rests and what looks like ample leg room, shhhhh don't tell the Thameslink commuters, these are all luxuries the shiny new class 700s don't have  ;D)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 01, 2016, 01:36:28 pm
(And look, seat back tables, power sockets, arm rests and what looks like ample leg room, shhhhh don't tell the Thameslink commuters, these are all luxuries the shiny new class 700s don't have  ;D)[/size]

Yes, not all brand new trains are solely designed to squeeze as many people on board as possible as Broadgage would have you believe.   ;)

387131 now has full branding and will presumably be used at tomorrow's launch event.  Looks very nice IMHO:  http://goo.gl/G00spW


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on September 01, 2016, 05:17:13 pm
The photo was apparently taken of the unit on a crew training run from Padd to Friars Junction, 3 miles 48 chains precisely.  I checked with Realtime Trains that the trip wasn’t via Hayes etc.

Is this a world record for the shortest main line crew training trip?   


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: eightf48544 on September 01, 2016, 05:42:10 pm
Will report after tomorrow launch.

From the pictures of the Crossrail prototype in September's Modern railway Adelante is right TV commuters won't be too pleased when they get 700s.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on September 01, 2016, 09:59:10 pm
Will report after tomorrow launch.

From the pictures of the Crossrail prototype in September's Modern railway Adelante is right TV commuters won't be too pleased when they get 700s.

345s.   700s are Thameslink and would be well off route... :)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: LiskeardRich on September 01, 2016, 11:47:05 pm
RAIL magazine have released some pictures to give all you Thames Valley commuters a taste of what the new trains look like inside.  Pretty swish I think -  2+2 seating throughout, power sockets, air-con (that works) and plenty of tables (27 in each 4-car train).

http://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/2016/08/29/gwr-shows-off-the-first-of-its-new-class-387-emus

The choice of seat colour fabric unfortunately shows up stains clearly as seen on the HST with these interiors. I now spend more time looking and avoiding incontinence stains than reservation tickets! I guess with old fabric colours that hide the stains it's better off not knowing!


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: grahame on September 02, 2016, 02:46:13 am
The choice of seat colour fabric unfortunately shows up stains clearly as seen on the HST with these interiors. I now spend more time looking and avoiding incontinence stains than reservation tickets! I guess with old fabric colours that hide the stains it's better off not knowing!

As trains have had fabric seat covers for at least 50 years, wouldn't it be fair to assume that the people who designed and selected the materials and colours had a wealth of experience available on durability to support the choice made?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: patch38 on September 02, 2016, 09:33:43 am
Yes but don't you have a sneaking suspicion that those with the years of experience may sometimes be overridden by that young buck from Marketing who thinks that cream is a good fabric colour because it "complements our new brand identity so nicely..."?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 02, 2016, 10:19:19 am
The choice of seat colour fabric unfortunately shows up stains clearly as seen on the HST with these interiors. I now spend more time looking and avoiding incontinence stains than reservation tickets! I guess with old fabric colours that hide the stains it's better off not knowing!

I think the shade of grey is noticeably darker than was installed on the HST and Class 166 unit.  They were indeed too light shaded for such a use, but hopefully this darker shade will conceal the various stains much better!


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: bobm on September 02, 2016, 06:56:22 pm
Two four car units were unveiled for the media to have a look over at Paddington today, before entering service on Monday.

Look impressive with decent legroom.  I was surprised at the number of tables for what is essentially a commuter train.

Might be a few surprised people at Hayes & Harlington on Monday expecting a two carriage train and this eight carriage one rolls up!

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/elect1.jpg)
(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/elect2.jpg)
(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/elect3.jpg)
(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/elect4.jpg)
(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/elect5.jpg)
(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/elect6.jpg)
(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/elect7.jpg)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: grahame on September 02, 2016, 07:08:56 pm
Look impressive with decent legroom.  I was surprised at the number of tables for what is essentially a commuter train.


Look nice - nice pics too, thanks, Bob


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on September 02, 2016, 08:02:04 pm
The train might be 4 times longer than a 2-coach 165, but passenger density looks like it will be a lot less in that layout.

Guess I'm just saying that we shouldn't expect it to carry 4 times as many people.

Looks great though, pity it will be a while before they reach the B&H.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on September 02, 2016, 08:53:31 pm
They are meant really for outer suburban and not the metro use they will initially be put too.  So the Oxford semi fasts, Newbury's etc and limited stoppers east of Reading


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on September 03, 2016, 09:05:50 am
Definitely meant for the outer suburban services as ET says, not the riff-raff east of Slough who now have 3 years to mess up our nice new trains with cannabis odours, graffiti (especially in First Class), chewing gum, feet on seats etc. 


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Oxonhutch on September 03, 2016, 09:33:21 am
Definitely meant for the outer suburban services as ET says, not the riff-raff east of Slough who now have 3 years to mess up our nice new trains with cannabis odours, graffiti (especially in First Class), chewing gum, feet on seats etc. 

First Class? You'll be lucky. I didn't see any provision when I glanced over the unit in the depot recently.

Hence in anticipation, the total removal from the 165s and de facto removal from the 166s.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on September 03, 2016, 10:54:41 am
The train might be 4 times longer than a 2-coach 165, but passenger density looks like it will be a lot less in that layout.

Guess I'm just saying that we shouldn't expect it to carry 4 times as many people.

Looks great though, pity it will be a while before they reach the B&H.

Passenger density is highly relevant isn't it.  On the routes the units will be used on, capacity includes a standing allowance, and in terms of shifting people into Paddington in the peaks, that is the figure DfT and GWR will be considering.   Less seats = more standees.

My experience on the 387/1s temporarily in use on Thameslink is that they just 'feel' extremely spacious inside compared to a 165 or 166, despite individual vehicles being shorter.    I think the use of more glass in the vicinity of the doors has a lot to do with the 'openness'.   (Is that a real word?)
 
Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on September 03, 2016, 10:59:29 am
First Class? You'll be lucky. I didn't see any provision when I glanced over the unit in the depot recently.

Hence in anticipation, the total removal from the 165s and de facto removal from the 166s.

The existing Thameslink 387/1s have a marked section of First Class at one end, but as per the usual 'Southern' specification the 2+2 seats are physically identical to the rest of the train, and as in some variants of 377 there isn't necessarily a partition door.   I suggest that just as in the Southern trains, paying for first class is just a way of improving chances of a seat.   Rightly or wrongly, I'd expect GWR's trains to have a similar set up.    Equalising down to the typical set up used in south London...

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 03, 2016, 11:03:48 am
Thanks for the excellent photos, Bobm.  You can clearly see the darker shade of grey in those photos, so hopefully no visible stains!

First Class? You'll be lucky. I didn't see any provision when I glanced over the unit in the depot recently.

I would be a little surprised if fast Oxford's didn't have first class provision, given the affluence of the passengers on that route, but perhaps that will be added later in the fashion Paul suggests?  I guess it depends how many of them will end up on Oxford fasts, and how many will be covered by IEP/SET/IET units.  Certainly with a layout inside similar to Chiltern's Clubman trains, who seem to do perfectly well with just one class of travel, GWR might just try the same principle given the likely furthest reaches of Oxford/Swindon/Newbury.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: stuving on September 03, 2016, 11:22:58 am
Porterbrook's brochure doesn't show any first seating, and the carriage type names suggest none too. However, Porterbrook don't spend much time on keeping their site up to date, and only list their 387 fleet as leased to GTR.

PS: That brochure actually says it's for class 387/3, which are the c2c ones - makeup DMOS(A)-MOSL-PTOSL(W)-DMOS(B) and 219 seats.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on September 03, 2016, 12:54:33 pm
Porterbrook's revised brochure dates from their decision to order a speculative build, it wasn't decided at that stage where they were going -there was some debate elsewhere about whether or not the rest of the GWR units would be 387/1s or 387/3s.  It has subsequently been decided that only the c2c units will be numbered as 387/3.

But as I said earlier, when the only difference between First and Standard is stickers and a stripe on the outside, and stickers inside, with a general purpose antimacassar tied onto the same seats and headrests as the rest of the unit, then the Rosco wouldn't need to differentiate the cars by type, 'First' provision, and marking of it, is purely down to what the TOC decides.

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 03, 2016, 04:05:12 pm
Here's a report from ITV, very negative and focussing on the electrification delays more than the new trains, but at least Bobm gets his one second of fame at the beginning...  :D

http://www.itv.com/news/meridian/update/2016-09-02/new-generation-of-trains-revealed-today/


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: bobm on September 05, 2016, 09:15:32 am
As scheduled the first two GWR Electrostar passenger services operated this morning, the 07:15 from Paddington to Hayes & Harlington and the 07:18 in the other direction.

The stock for the 07:18 comes into Paddington before running out empty to Hayes

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/electpad.jpg)

The 07:15 left Paddington on time and as you'd expect from an electric train was very quiet and accelerated smoothly out of the station, quickly passing the 07:15 HST to Cardiff on the adjacent line.

The train was lightly loaded going out. Saloon temperature is a subjective thing but it was slightly high for my preference and indeed I did see one other person, unsuccessfully, try to open a window.  It wasn't a particularly cold morning so I wonder how it will cope on a hot day.

The other thing I noticed was the distance from the platform to the train.  Hard to show but with a curved platform there's not only a step but also a large gap.

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/electgap.jpg)

The onboard audible announcements are clear and gave details of which doors would not open at stations with short platforms.  There is also an announcement, as on Southern, to tell you which coach you are in. I do wonder why it couldn't have all been recorded by the same voice.  It does jar a bit when a second voice chips in to tell you the coach number.

After arriving at Hayes the two four car units shunted out of the station while a five car turbo from Reading came in on the adjacent platform.

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/hayes1.jpg)
(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/hayes2.jpg)

After it departed, well loaded, the 387 came back into the station and despite another train just a few minutes in front of it saw a few dozen people board.

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/electhay.jpg)

It was said on Friday at the media launch that this train is replacing a former two coach service.  If that is the case, I'm not sure how they all fitted on board the old train!  Admittedly I was in the front coach and a lot of people heading into Paddington like to be at the front.  Also at West Ealing the two car and eight car stop board is in the same place so most people were at that end of the platform with the result there were a couple of dozen people standing in the coach.   I understand there was plenty of space further down the train.

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/electsign.jpg)

There are currently four 387s in service with another pair expected next week.  Eventually there will be 45 in the fleet.

For the moment they will operate the 07:15, 17:18, 18:48 and 19:15 Paddington to Hayes and the 07:18, 07:48, 19:24 and 19:54 from Hayes to Paddington.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on September 05, 2016, 09:30:10 am
The train was lightly loaded going out. Saloon temperature is a subjective thing but it was slightly high for my preference and indeed I did see one other person, unsuccessfully, try to open a window.  It wasn't a particularly cold morning so I wonder how it will cope on a hot day.

Perhaps the aircon was only just starting up and hadn't yet controlled the temperature?   But people will have to get used to the idea of not being able to intervene by making unilateral decisions to open windows.   The emergency windows are just that.

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: stuving on September 05, 2016, 09:57:06 am
The train was lightly loaded going out. Saloon temperature is a subjective thing but it was slightly high for my preference and indeed I did see one other person, unsuccessfully, try to open a window.  It wasn't a particularly cold morning so I wonder how it will cope on a hot day.

Perhaps the aircon was only just starting up and hadn't yet controlled the temperature?   But people will have to get used to the idea of not being able to intervene by making unilateral decisions to open windows.   The emergency windows are just that.

Paul

How would it have got so warm this morning it needs chilling? It's not as if it's bolted on top of a hot diesel. Are they really being kept indoors, and in a well-heated building at that?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on September 05, 2016, 10:18:19 am
Is the fourth picture showing that there is a full partition and sliding doors for the First Class seating area after all?

(No it isn't, its a Turbo as bobm explains in a later post.  So my question was unnecessary...)

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: stuving on September 05, 2016, 10:19:16 am
The other thing I noticed was the distance from the platform to the train.  Hard to show but with a curved platform there's not only a step but also a large gap.

The same thing had struck me, especially on platform 5/6 at Reading with a Turbo on one side and a 450 on the other. There's much more daylight under the EMUs. That's not just less stuff, but also a bigger gap, though perhaps it's the Turbos that are unusually low-floored and wide.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: bobm on September 05, 2016, 10:21:13 am
Is the fourth picture showing that there is a full partition and sliding doors for the First Class seating area after all?

Paul

No it's all standard but I suspect if any get First class that's where it will be.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: stuving on September 05, 2016, 10:23:37 am
Is the fourth picture showing that there is a full partition and sliding doors for the First Class seating area after all?

Paul

No it's all standard but I suspect if any get First class that's where it will be.

There's a big "1" on that door, you  know...


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: bobm on September 05, 2016, 10:28:31 am
Hang on we are getting at cross purposes here.  That photo is of the preceding Turbo.   There is an internal partition.  I'll see if I can find a photo of it.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: bobm on September 05, 2016, 10:31:54 am
Here it is, from Friday's launch

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/electpart.jpg)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: stuving on September 05, 2016, 10:39:05 am
Hang on we are getting at cross purposes here.  That photo is of the preceding Turbo.   There is an internal partition.  I'll see if I can find a photo of it.

My mistake - I took that turbo for an older livery (from a choice of 73) than the next picture shows.

But, returning to footsteps, your pictures 3 and 5 do show the difference in height and width rather well.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on September 05, 2016, 12:55:29 pm
Quote
It was said on Friday at the media launch that this train is replacing a former two coach service.  If that is the case, I'm not sure how they all fitted on board the old train!

Former two coach service at West Ealing and Acton, but additional service for Hayes and Southall passengers.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on September 05, 2016, 06:40:47 pm
I see some training runs have been timetabled from Monday 12th onwards between Reading Depot and Didcot:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C47489/2016/09/12/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C47496/2016/09/12/advanced

I'm assuming these could possibly be 387s on test having been dragged up from London, I believe the next (pair of) units are due to arrive GWR shortly anyway so they will have enough to run these test services.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Noggin on September 06, 2016, 10:14:57 am
I see some training runs have been timetabled from Monday 12th onwards between Reading Depot and Didcot:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C47489/2016/09/12/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C47496/2016/09/12/advanced

I'm assuming these could possibly be 387s on test having been dragged up from London, I believe the next (pair of) units are due to arrive GWR shortly anyway so they will have enough to run these test services.

I didn't think that Tilehurst to Reading Depot was wired yet? So maybe an 80x instead?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: a-driver on September 06, 2016, 10:21:18 am
At some point they will be going to Reading depot for maintenance staff to train on them and they will be dragged by a GWR 57


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: bobm on September 06, 2016, 11:01:03 am
At some point they will be going to Reading depot for maintenance staff to train on them and they will be dragged by a GWR 57

Perhaps they could work on the 57 too.  ;D


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: insider on September 06, 2016, 02:56:31 pm
I see some training runs have been timetabled from Monday 12th onwards between Reading Depot and Didcot:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C47489/2016/09/12/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C47496/2016/09/12/advanced

I'm assuming these could possibly be 387s on test having been dragged up from London, I believe the next (pair of) units are due to arrive GWR shortly anyway so they will have enough to run these test services.

I didn't think that Tilehurst to Reading Depot was wired yet? So maybe an 80x instead?

It isn't and not anytime soon...i believe these paths are for the bi mode class 800 for driver training in future....


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on September 06, 2016, 05:52:54 pm
... quite probable, I had thought about it being the 800s, although vaguely ruled it out with the near daily test runs they have been doing between North Pole and Bristol at the moment. Seems pointless to limit runs to such a short section when longer ones are currently being done, but makes sense if its for driver training purposes.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on September 07, 2016, 07:16:47 am
... quite probable, I had thought about it being the 800s, although vaguely ruled it out with the near daily test runs they have been doing between North Pole and Bristol at the moment. Seems pointless to limit runs to such a short section when longer ones are currently being done, but makes sense if its for driver training purposes.

The test runs will at some stage start run during the day under electric power between Reading and Didcot possibly as part of Driver training.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on September 07, 2016, 09:58:22 am
he current 387 diagrams are thus -

Here are the diagrams:
 
 Diagram 1
 2S07 0718 HAY-PAD 0740
 2S48 1718 PAD-HAY 1739
 5S52 1741 HAY-PAD 1841
 2S52 1848 PAD-HAY 1909
 2S53 1924 HAY-PAD 1944
 
 Diagram 2
 2S09 0715 PAD HAY 0733
 2S10 0748 HAY PAD 0810
 2S56 1915 PAD HAY 1936
 2S57 1954 HAY PAD 2014


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on September 07, 2016, 09:13:08 pm
he current 387 diagrams are thus -

Here are the diagrams:
 
 Diagram 1
 2S07 0718 HAY-PAD 0740
 2S48 1718 PAD-HAY 1739
 5S52 1741 HAY-PAD 1841
 2S52 1848 PAD-HAY 1909
 2S53 1924 HAY-PAD 1944
 
 Diagram 2
 2S09 0715 PAD HAY 0733
 2S10 0748 HAY PAD 0810
 2S56 1915 PAD HAY 1936
 2S57 1954 HAY PAD 2014

Steady on .......... with such an intensive diagrams as these the units will get worn out  ;D   ;D

Did see them out and about today


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 07, 2016, 09:31:25 pm
Don't think enough drivers are passed out to run any more at the moment!


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Surrey 455 on September 08, 2016, 09:31:37 pm
Don't think enough drivers are passed out to run any more at the moment!

Do they have to be passed out? Wouldn't a healthy wide awake driver be better on this route?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: chuffed on September 08, 2016, 09:38:57 pm
Think it is more likely to be the passengers who will 'pass out' at the sight of a shiny new train...but they will soon recover their equilibrium when they find out it's not long enough......


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: BBM on September 08, 2016, 09:58:07 pm
No danger tonight of anyone passing out at the sight of these trains as according to Realtimetrains both diagrams were cancelled.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on September 10, 2016, 09:40:35 am
Don't think enough drivers are passed out to run any more at the moment!

Do they have to be passed out? Wouldn't a healthy wide awake driver be better on this route?

Totally different form of traction, the acceleration and breaking is totally different to the turbos. 
The drives need to know what ADD is,
What to do at Neutral Sections
The breaking is totally different to a turbo the 387 have regen breaking.   
All the emergency systems are different, the location of rests and equipment isolation are all different.
The coupling / uncoupling of units is very different. 
Also 387 have incab monitors for DOO


The drivers being trained are already highly skilled so will pick it up very quickly and I am sure are looking forward to the challenge of learning the new units

(ADD - automatic dropping device a safety system associated with the pantographs)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on September 10, 2016, 11:52:48 am
Looks as if the Class 387 drags to Reading Depot using Class 57s have been pencilled in to be used when required as follows:
TWThO from December 13th onwards
0R87 09:09 OOC to West Ealing Loop (Class 57)
5R87 10:00 West Ealing Loop to Reading TD (Class 57/387)
5G87 12:21 Reading TD to West Ealing Loop (Class 57/387)
0G87 14:32 West Ealing Loop to OOC (Class 57)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: The Tall Controller on September 10, 2016, 02:18:16 pm
GWR have recently purchased a couple of additional 57s. Presumably to do 387 drags.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ellendune on September 10, 2016, 04:51:41 pm
GWR have recently purchased a couple of additional 57s. Presumably to do 387 drags.
Can they also stand in when the Sleeper loco breaks down?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: The Tall Controller on September 10, 2016, 09:08:24 pm
Providing the breakdown is in the London area and doesn't has an impact on getting the 387s out the next morning then it should be possible.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on September 12, 2016, 10:54:10 am
New unit 387136 reported elsewhere delivered to North Pole last night.

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 12, 2016, 07:37:00 pm
Took my first trip today.  Very impressed with the trains, the best Class 377/387 interior in my opinion.

However I was very unimpressed to see several people left behind at West Ealing when the Greenford shuttle left on time despite people visibly running down the platform to try and connect with it having alighted from a slightly delayed Hayes service.  A 5 minute connection hold policy should be enforced as the goodwill of commuters from the Greenford branch needs to be maintained as they have ended up worse off as a result of these changes.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on September 12, 2016, 08:48:44 pm
I'm guessing you are referring to the 19:15 then II? as the 17:18/18:48 services aren't suppose to connect, if that is the case then yes, it really should wait, especially as it then has a 30 minute wait at West Ealing on its next trip back.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: phile on September 12, 2016, 08:56:45 pm
GWR have recently purchased a couple of additional 57s. Presumably to do 387 drags.

Don't think I'm being pedantic, but GWR haven't bought two additional 57s.   They have leased 2 from Porterbrook.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: grahame on September 12, 2016, 09:15:47 pm
I'm guessing you are referring to the 19:15 then II? as the 17:18/18:48 services aren't suppose to connect, if that is the case then yes, it really should wait, especially as it then has a 30 minute wait at West Ealing on its next trip back.

The 17:18 is due to call at 17:30, and the Greenford shuttle due to leave also at 17:30.  No, they are not designed to connect - they seem set up to provocatively fail to connect and leave people frustrated.

Edit to add ... same thing at 19:00 off the 18:48 ...


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on September 12, 2016, 10:38:42 pm
If they can catch the 1915 to catch it, then there isn't really a problem?

It wont be shown anywhere that the 1918 is a connected service either


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: LiskeardRich on September 12, 2016, 10:51:11 pm
Took my first trip today.  Very impressed with the trains, the best Class 377/387 interior in my opinion.

However I was very unimpressed to see several people left behind at West Ealing when the Greenford shuttle left on time despite people visibly running down the platform to try and connect with it having alighted from a slightly delayed Hayes service.  A 5 minute connection hold policy should be enforced as the goodwill of commuters from the Greenford branch needs to be maintained as they have ended up worse off as a result of these changes.

A look at the timetable, none of the 387 services are recognised connections onto the branch service. All are under the 5 minute minimum connection time. Maybe something for the planners as the branch train has so much slack.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 12, 2016, 11:01:52 pm
It was the 1915 out of Paddington, arriving West Ealing at 1927 connecting into the 1930 to Greenford.  An advertised connection in that it appears as a journey in the journey planners.  It arrived one minute late tonight and the connection departed on time two minutes later - which wasn't enough time to for several passengers.  It's quite a long way to walk, so the connection should be either made longer, not advertised, or the train should have waited another minute.

Same goes with all the other services that now require a change at West Ealing, those being the 1715, 1844, and 2013 from Paddington.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: stuving on September 12, 2016, 11:17:06 pm
I guess the problem is that these 387s are running in the paths that were Greenford services, and at the same regular 30 minute intervals. The Greenford branch is 12 minutes each way, so there isn't much scope for shifting even a couple of minutes either way just for one train - it's 30 minutes round trip with no hanging about at all.

When the through trains to Greenford stop, the branch timing can be offset from the main line trains (Crossrail or some later interim operation). Crossrail is planned as 4 per hour, though probably not regular and the time offset of up and down trains at West Ealing is anyone's guess. But with a bit of normal timetabler's inventiveness it should be possible to get more sensible connection times by then.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: anthony215 on September 12, 2016, 11:23:37 pm
Was one suggestion to increase the Grennford  branch Service to 4tph 


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on September 12, 2016, 11:32:00 pm
Was one suggestion to increase the Grennford  branch Service to 4tph 



It has been suggested but there's no evidence of it happening in the published franchise specifications.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 12, 2016, 11:33:49 pm
I guess the problem is that these 387s are running in the paths that were Greenford services, and at the same regular 30 minute intervals. The Greenford branch is 12 minutes each way, so there isn't much scope for shifting even a couple of minutes either way just for one train - it's 30 minutes round trip with no hanging about at all.

When the through trains to Greenford stop, the branch timing can be offset from the main line trains (Crossrail or some later interim operation). Crossrail is planned as 4 per hour, though probably not regular and the time offset of up and down trains at West Ealing is anyone's guess. But with a bit of normal timetabler's inventiveness it should be possible to get more sensible connection times by then.

A couple of minutes is unlikely to cause a problem.  If the return working from Greenford is delayed then even if it misses the connection for the train back to London (which is unlikely given the small amount of extra time we're talking about and the simple cross platform change the other way), then that's not so bad as there's another train only 15 minutes later.

Leaving people stuck for 30 minutes for the sake of a few seconds, when they used to have a through train is simply unacceptable.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: grahame on September 13, 2016, 06:48:25 am
Leaving people stuck for 30 minutes for the sake of a few seconds, when they used to have a through train is simply unacceptable.

Indeed.

I can see the operational reasons - but the appearance is a slap in the face to through passengers to the Greenford line.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on September 13, 2016, 09:10:56 am
Indeed - the easiest solution is to increase the station change time from 3 mins to 5mins & that connection would no longer be in the planners.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 13, 2016, 09:42:16 am
That would indeed be the easiest (but least customer friendly) option.  Is a new footbridge and lifts to be provided further along the platform at West Ealing to make the transfer easier in future?  This will be an all-day issue shortly, not just a couple of trains a day.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on September 13, 2016, 09:46:26 am
Once that happens, easier to slide the round-trip timings by a couple of minutes. But can't do that until all services are self-contained within the branch


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on September 13, 2016, 10:12:11 am
That would indeed be the easiest (but least customer friendly) option.  Is a new footbridge and lifts to be provided further along the platform at West Ealing to make the transfer easier in future?  This will be an all-day issue shortly, not just a couple of trains a day.

I believe the station building is resited alongside the new bay, and step free access provided as Crossrail work.  There are hoardings on the down relief platform suggesting something happening with the footbridge.

Crossrail description here:  http://www.crossrail.co.uk/route/western-section/west-ealing-station

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on September 13, 2016, 10:17:58 am
Indeed - the easiest solution is to increase the station change time from 3 mins to 5mins & that connection would no longer be in the planners.

That would be really pointless as the 17:15 & 18:45 from Paddington only call at West Ealing in order to make the Greenford connections.

3 minute advertised connection times work at Twyford & Maidenhead no problem.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on September 13, 2016, 10:20:12 am
but they don't hold at Maidenhead either, for the same reasons


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 13, 2016, 10:46:46 am
They will usually wait a few seconds at Maidenhead (which was all that was required last night) and at Twyford the connection hold policy is on the drivers diagrams and they will wait several minutes if necessary.  The principal difference with both of those is there are station staff on hand to advise the driver to wait if necessary.

At West Ealing it's difficult for the driver to see down the long platform and there are no station staff apart from someone in the ticket office.  I feel sorry for them as they must be taking a fair bit of flack!


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: insider on September 13, 2016, 12:11:28 pm
They will usually wait a few seconds at Maidenhead (which was all that was required last night) and at Twyford the connection hold policy is on the drivers diagrams and they will wait several minutes if necessary.  The principal difference with both of those is there are station staff on hand to advise the driver to wait if necessary.

At West Ealing it's difficult for the driver to see down the long platform and there are no station staff apart from someone in the ticket office.  I feel sorry for them as they must be taking a fair bit of flack!

Nothing on drivers diagrams with regards to holds at any station / branch line service. Its purely down to the driver or communication from station staff or control (via signaller).


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 13, 2016, 12:31:03 pm
Apologies if that's no longer the case.  It certainly used to be on drivers diagrams at Twyford for some of the later Henley services.  Last time I drove that branch was many years ago!  :)

My point still stands though, the train will usually wait a few seconds (more with authority from Control), at Maidenhead and Twyford so the situation I witnessed last night at West Ealing would be very unlikely to occur.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: eightf48544 on September 13, 2016, 04:32:43 pm
Connections with the branches has been and still is a problem. Now they've added West Ealing to the list.

One of the main problems is the lack of turnround time at the terminus in order for the train to get back to the junction and keep its onward connections.

To keep up the 20 minute service the Windsor line only has 4 minutes at each end. It is similar with the two train service on the Marlow branch with the turnround at Bourne End.

Currently there is a bit of slack in the Henley timetable with its 45 minute service it will be much tighter with the 30 minute service. So much so Wargrave gets an hourly service.

It looks like with its 30 service the Greenford branch is going to suffer.

One of the problems it seems to me is  the performance regime, whereby the the TOC is punished for holding the branch and making it late.   

It's all down to John Watt MP for Slough who was in the Ministry of Transport at Privatisation who said something like connections won't be held in the new sleek private railways. Forgetting that the sum of the parts is greater than the whole and connections a an essential part of the network.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 13, 2016, 07:53:44 pm
Yes, we sometimes get so obsessed with delay minutes and charter figures that we forget why the trains are running in the first place - to serve the customer.  It's a shame a case-by-case system can't operate more often when a hold is of a clear benefit to the customer, and has little operational impact.

I note the connection was missed again tonight, though a 4 or so minute delay would have been incurred rather than the 1-2 minutes of last night.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on September 14, 2016, 12:49:11 pm
Six units now with GWR following two separate deliveries overnight Sunday and Monday.  Reported to be 134 and 136, although I have not sighted them personally.

Will be interesting if once three pairs are available they add some more services into the mix?

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 14, 2016, 01:03:24 pm
I'd imagine they'll stick with what they've got and use the extra units to ramp up the driver and maintenance staff training.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on September 14, 2016, 02:09:43 pm
More services with the December timetable, I think


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 14, 2016, 02:15:10 pm
Yes, that's the current plan.  Replace all of the Greenford's from December with an all day Paddington to Hayes service, then let the 387s loose as far as Maidenhead next summer.  Until then, there's some serious amount of training to be done...


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on September 14, 2016, 02:26:59 pm
Full (all day) service from January and extension to Maidenhead in May is as per GWR's announcement prior to last weeks startup, however there will surely come a time in the interim period when they'll have to increase the number of trips?   If they don't they'll end up with loads of trained drivers but not enough services to keep their competency up...

Here's the info GWR published, in case people haven't seen it yet:  https://www.gwr.com/travel-updates/planned-engineering/greenford-line-alterations   The Jan and May 2017 predictions are near the end.

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: msealing on September 15, 2016, 09:10:07 pm
Indeed - the easiest solution is to increase the station change time from 3 mins to 5mins & that connection would no longer be in the planners.

That would be really pointless as the 17:15 & 18:45 from Paddington only call at West Ealing in order to make the Greenford connections.

3 minute advertised connection times work at Twyford & Maidenhead no problem.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's a bit harsh about West Ealing.  There are 4 trains per hour to/from Paddington, and the Greenford service provides 2 of them.  A lot of people will get off the 17:15 and 18:45 at  West Ealing.  Remember that it's a station with about £1.3m passenger entries and exits per year


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: grahame on September 15, 2016, 09:59:55 pm
Welcome to the Forum, Msealing.

Yes - I would agree the wording looks a bit harsh; I would suggest that "the 17:15 only calls at West Ealing because of the connection it makes" would be more accurate.   The 17:15 is a semi-fast train to Maidenhead and is followed from Paddington by a much longer and more modern (nearly) all stations train at 17:18.   If it weren't for the connection to Greenford that's possible off the 17:15 but not off the 17:18, I suspect the 17:15 call at West Ealing wouldn't happen in order to distribute passengers - as you say there are a significant number of the too - into the following high capacity electric service.

Where a low capacity train is followed by a high capacity one just a few minutes later (I have other examples in GWR territory) it's really problematic to persuade people to wait for the high capacity train rather than crowd the earlier one and then (!) grumble at lack of capacity.   When we had the opportunity to make inputs in our area, we asked for the one coach local train to follow the 8 coach express rather than run ahead of it from Swindon to Chippenham - precisely to avoid these problems.  Good news (I think) is that the West Earling current situation is temporary until more trains become longer electrics and the Greenford turns into a pure shuttle, at which point it can routinely connect 5 minutes after the arrival of an 8 coach electric.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on September 16, 2016, 11:03:07 am
Indeed - the easiest solution is to increase the station change time from 3 mins to 5mins & that connection would no longer be in the planners.

That would be really pointless as the 17:15 & 18:45 from Paddington only call at West Ealing in order to make the Greenford connections.

3 minute advertised connection times work at Twyford & Maidenhead no problem.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's a bit harsh about West Ealing.  There are 4 trains per hour to/from Paddington, and the Greenford service provides 2 of them.  A lot of people will get off the 17:15 and 18:45 at  West Ealing.  Remember that it's a station with about £1.3m passenger entries and exits per year

Wow, those passengers are a bit expensive!  ;)

Sorry, I wasn't trying to belittle West Ealing in any way, as Graham has suggested perhaps I worded it incorrectly. Those additional stops made are for the passengers to connect with the Greenford service, which would make it silly to then have a 5 minute rule,,,, whilst these services are not aimed at West Ealing passengers they of course may benefit from the changes made.  :)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 16, 2016, 11:50:00 am
It's going to be a little awkward planning the Greenford shuttle service in the future.  As with the Twyford to Henley service, the running time is around 12 minutes, so that leaves you with four less-than-ideal possibilities:

1)  Use the one unit to provide a 30-minute frequency.  Has the benefit of saving a unit, but gives minimum turnround times, and if a connection is missed gives passengers a long wait.
2)  Use two units to operate a 30-minute frequency.  Has the benefit of making delay recovery easy, but is very wasteful of resources and is no improvement on the current service and if a connection is missed gives passengers a long wait.
3)  Use two units to operate a 20-minute frequency.  The benefit of an increased frequency, meaning less of a wait if connections are missed, and still robust turnround times, but more difficult to work those connections well as there is likely to be a 15-minute frequency on the main line.
4)  Use two units to operate a 15-minute frequency.  A really frequent service with easy connections off of main line services at West Ealing, but minimum turnround times again leading to a performance risk, and more difficult to path the other freight and ECS moves that use the line.

You could consider making options 1 and 4 work better by making every other train miss out some stops en-route, but unlike Twyford to Henley, where Wargrave and Shiplake provide a small percentage of total passengers with Henley providing the clear majority, the Greenford line stops all provide a similar number of passengers, and the linespeeds are very slow so the journey time saving smaller, so I don't think that is an option worth pursuing. 

Personally, I think the 20-minute frequency of option 3 would be the best compromise going forward, perhaps increasing that to a 15-minute frequency option 4 during a couple of hours in the high peak.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: stuving on September 16, 2016, 12:17:21 pm
There is perhaps a little more leeway than I said in the timing. The timetable now gives 10 minutes Greenford-West Ealing, and 12 minutes the other way includes the overall allowance at the end of a run from Paddington. Oddly, in pre-diesel 1949 it was given as only 9 minutes - and you know what that was done by! Of course the odd minute may be due to different assumptions about what a timetable means.

What will a connection mean in the long run? With 4 Crossrail trains promised per hour, it will come down to the spacing each away and between directions. If it's regular, the 20 minute options looks unhelpful. But really, as it's not single track, it ought to be possible to come up with something reasonably flexible to cope with disruptions to Crossrail (but of course there won't be any of those in the bright new tomorrow, will there?).


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 16, 2016, 12:36:09 pm
There is perhaps a little more leeway than I said in the timing. The timetable now gives 10 minutes Greenford-West Ealing, and 12 minutes the other way includes the overall allowance at the end of a run from Paddington. Oddly, in pre-diesel 1949 it was given as only 9 minutes - and you know what that was done by! Of course the odd minute may be due to different assumptions about what a timetable means.

What will a connection mean in the long run? With 4 Crossrail trains promised per hour, it will come down to the spacing each away and between directions. If it's regular, the 20 minute options looks unhelpful. But really, as it's not single track, it ought to be possible to come up with something reasonably flexible to cope with disruptions to Crossrail (but of course there won't be any of those in the bright new tomorrow, will there?).

Yes, though 11 minutes is allowed for the Greenford to West Ealing trains as the entry speed into the bay platform is slightly slower than into the though platform, so you'd be looking at around 23 minutes actual movement per round trip.  That gives four minutes at one end and three at the other to provide a clockface 15-minute interval service, which is just about OK in short peak time bursts, but probably not sustainable for the whole day.  A 20-minute frequency gives a much more manageable 8 minutes turnround at both ends.  A 30-minute frequency and you've got a wasteful 18 minute wait at each end.

Connection optimisation does indeed depend on how clockface the Crossrail timetable turns out to be.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: grahame on September 16, 2016, 12:46:43 pm
Connection optimisation does indeed depend on how clockface the Crossrail timetable turns out to be.

Presumably it also depends on the offset between eastbound and westbound calls at West Ealing?    If the westbound call is at :00, :15, :30 and :45 and the eastbound at :05, :20, :35 and :50, the Greenford can arrive at :01 and leave at :04 ... but if they both call at  eastbound were to call at :12, :27, :42 and :57 you would have a different situation.

Is there significant traffic connecting from the Slough direction to Greenford?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 16, 2016, 06:30:21 pm
Virtually non-existent connectional demand from the west, Graham.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on September 20, 2016, 07:44:24 pm
Now that we are a couple of weeks in to the introduction of the additional Hayes services, I'm just wondering how the existing services have been affected with regards to passenger numbers,,, do we have any regular commuters on the 17:15/18:45/19:12 stoppers out of Paddington? If so have those services been slightly less of a squeeze recently, or have the extra services had minimal impact?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: rower40 on September 20, 2016, 08:01:34 pm
Looks as if the Class 387 drags to Reading Depot using Class 57s have been pencilled in to be used when required as follows:
TWThO from December 13th onwards
0R87 09:09 OOC to West Ealing Loop (Class 57)
5R87 10:00 West Ealing Loop to Reading TD (Class 57/387)
5G87 12:21 Reading TD to West Ealing Loop (Class 57/387)
0G87 14:32 West Ealing Loop to OOC (Class 57)
Did this level of preparation occur (i.e. timetabling moves to get the new stock to and from its depot) when a similar step-change in motive power last occurred on the Great Western?  I'm thinking of the Steam to Diesel transition in the 1960's.

There's a minor bug in ARS at West Ealing.  It routes trains from the Greenford branch onto the Up Relief, even those timetabled to terminate in the bay.  Oops...(mea culpa!)  It'll be fixed at Christmas.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on September 25, 2016, 09:28:43 pm
Did this level of preparation occur (i.e. timetabling moves to get the new stock to and from its depot) when a similar step-change in motive power last occurred on the Great Western?  I'm thinking of the Steam to Diesel transition in the 1960's.

Big difference with this traction change, all the pervious traction changes on the Western the traction units have carried there energy source with them, this time the energy source is external to the traction unit and only the first 10 miles from OOC is available after that its not quite ready  ;D


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: simonw on September 26, 2016, 09:10:44 am
Slightly off topic, but when will the diesel trains displaced by the Class 387s be released to Bristol and West?

There are so many routes journeys that could do with moving from 2/3 carriages to 4/5 carriages. Compounded growth over 20 years does cause serious capacity issues that need addressing.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on September 26, 2016, 11:06:50 am
Slightly off topic, but when will the diesel trains displaced by the Class 387s be released to Bristol and West?


Not for a long time as far as I can see.  There is only one 2 car unit released from the Greenford branch, because the Hayes services are additional beyond West Ealing they don't release any other stock.    I doubt any more DMUs will become available until wires are complete to Reading, at which point you'd expect the two per hour Paddington - Reading stoppers would become EMUs.   Mid to late 2017 maybe?

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on September 26, 2016, 12:44:26 pm
Don't forget that even when some turbos are released from current duties, 3, possibly 4 units will need to be retained in order to cover for the enhanced Gatwick services.... Also if the Basingstoke 150s are not kept then another 2 turbos for that route as well.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on September 26, 2016, 04:25:08 pm
I hadn't realised how soon the enhanced Reading to Gatwick services, and the additional 3rd train per hour Reading to Redhill are supposed to start; the direct award brief reckoned May 2017, as does the SLC2 definition,  so they could easily end up taking the very first 'spare' Turbos anyway...

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on October 09, 2016, 05:24:56 pm
Quote
Quote from: IndustryInsider:
Connection optimisation does indeed depend on how clockface the Crossrail timetable turns out to be.
Quote
Quote from: grahame:
Presumably it also depends on the offset between eastbound and westbound calls at West Ealing?

Going back to the Greenford discussion, I see the shuttle times from January are slightly altered between morning and afternoon, so that 3-4 minute connections 'should' occur heading into London before midday and 3-4 minute connections heading from London after midday. If travelling to/from Greenford in the directions opposite to the am/pm flows then a connection to/from the Heathrow Connect at West Ealing will be required with roughly 14 minute waits in both directions.

As expected, the first train to Greenford and the last from Greenford will run to/from Paddington.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on October 09, 2016, 06:14:32 pm
There's also a track access application online now, that describes exactly what will happen both in January when the Hayes service goes all day, and from next May it explains the changes to various peak extra services to/from Maidenhead and Slough that replace the various  existing through DMUs from Bourne End:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/track%20access/2%20completed%20consultations/2016/2016-08-30-first%20greater%20western%20limited-3rd%20sa-section%2022-%20closes%2027th%20september%202016/form%20p%20dec%2016%203rd%20sa%20final%20for%20external%20consultation.pdf

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on October 12, 2016, 12:19:59 pm
“To-days Railways” is reporting that Class 387’s are subject to severe route restrictions between Paddington and Hayes, prohibiting them from a number of platforms.  A senior manager is quoted as saying the situation is a “nightmare”.

What’s the problem? Are they out of gauge? Are the platforms or the trains at fault?



Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on October 12, 2016, 12:46:54 pm
387137 delivered last night, reported elsewhere.

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on October 12, 2016, 02:14:09 pm
“To-days Railways” is reporting that Class 387’s are subject to severe route restrictions between Paddington and Hayes, prohibiting them from a number of platforms.  A senior manager is quoted as saying the situation is a “nightmare”.

What’s the problem? Are they out of gauge? Are the platforms or the trains at fault?

There's a few platform, route and speed restrictions in place currently.  I expect they'll be resolved before too long though and the limited number of trains that are currently operating are doing so without too many issues.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on October 14, 2016, 05:05:43 pm
387137 delivered last night, reported elsewhere.


...and for completeness 387135 was reported to have been delivered last night.  So that's 8 of the initial 8 now.

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on October 15, 2016, 08:17:57 am
“To-days Railways” is reporting that Class 387’s are subject to severe route restrictions between Paddington and Hayes, prohibiting them from a number of platforms.  A senior manager is quoted as saying the situation is a “nightmare”.

What’s the problem? Are they out of gauge? Are the platforms or the trains at fault?

Bit of a chicken an egg problem, the platforms have been around a long time but should have been made compliant years ago.

There may be some physical obstacles that need resolving but I suspect most of the issues are actually carrying out the gauging assessments, whilst most of this is done by a computer program there is still a lot of interpretation and final assessment done by Gauging Engineers before they sign the route clearance.  Don't forget the gauging also includes pantograph clearances both mechanical and electrical and the platform to train stepping heights and distance.

There might even have to be TNC (Temporary Non Compliance) or Derogation against standards required, internal NR ones can take a while if the Professional Heads have to sign them off, if it has to go to the ORR / RSSB that will take some time.



Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on October 15, 2016, 11:36:12 am
There may be some physical obstacles that need resolving

I think one Ground Position Signal has had to be physically removed for the time being, but suspect that 'Electric Train' is correct in that it's mostly just waiting to get the paperwork signed.  There's no reason why the all-day service in January can't operate with the current restrictions as long as the new bay platform and crossover at Hayes are commissioned by then, though it would be nice if the restriction of calling at Hanwell could be sorted out by then as well.  A more frequent service would be really useful there as there's lots of growth potential that the current 30-minute interval service is stifling.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on November 18, 2016, 01:55:38 am
The next unit for GWR, 387138, was reported delivered from Derby to Bletchley last night.  By the time it reaches GWR, if it takes similar time to test as previously, there will possibly have only been a gap of about 6 or 7 weeks while the 6 units for c2c have been produced.  (As far as I can work out they have 4 in service and 2 on test.)

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on December 08, 2016, 05:03:34 pm
Are these trains in service yet? If so, are they having any effect on the hideous overcrowding at Ealing Broadway in the evening peak?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 08, 2016, 05:46:48 pm
Yes, they've been in part service since September.  Two units forming 8-car trains currently work the 07:18/07:48/19:24/19:54 Hayes to Paddington and 07:15/17:18/18:48/19:15 Paddington to Hayes services on weekdays.  I saw the 17:18 depart Paddington the other day and it was pretty much full, and must be taking lots of passengers off trains either side.  Obviously any train not around the times the above trains are running will be no different to how they were.

During the day, and on those service trains, driver training takes place and I think around 30 Paddington drivers have now been passed out to drive them.  Then a full day service between Hayes and Paddington launches in early January which will see 8-car trains running every 30 minutes from around 6am to 10pm on weekdays.  That will make a big difference at places like Ealing Broadway.

Driver training will then expand to Reading depot so that enough drivers are available to cover the peak time Maidenhead services due to start next summer.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: grahame on December 08, 2016, 05:57:03 pm
I saw the 17:18 depart Paddington the other day and it was pretty much full, and must be taking lots of passengers off trains either side.

I recall that when the M25 was first opened, it was busier than had been expected from day 1 because it brought people in from far further afield than had been expected.    So  - yes, I'm sure that many people have transferred from other trains ... but is there a lot of traffic new to GWR there too - for example people who would have used the Central and District lines out to Ealing switching to (or at least trying out) the new electric trains?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on December 11, 2016, 06:00:54 pm
The first 387 to visit Reading Depot on Tuesday:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K96000/2016/12/13/advanced


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 13, 2016, 07:10:29 pm
That move took place.  Class 37 hauling 387130/1.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: SandTEngineer on January 03, 2017, 08:24:12 am
The new half hourly all day (EMU) service from Paddington to the bay platform at Hayes and Harlington started today (Tuesday 03/01/2017).  At the same time the all day Greenford service now shuttles between Greenford and the new bay platform at West Ealing.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: grahame on January 03, 2017, 09:04:49 am
At the same time the all day Greenford service now shuttles between Greenford and the new bay platform at West Ealing.

We hope  ;) ...

Quote
08:56 West Ealing to Greenford due 09:09
08:56 West Ealing to Greenford due 09:09 has been cancelled.
This is due to a points failure.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: stuving on January 03, 2017, 09:51:50 am
At the same time the all day Greenford service now shuttles between Greenford and the new bay platform at West Ealing.

We hope  ;) ...

Quote
08:56 West Ealing to Greenford due 09:09
08:56 West Ealing to Greenford due 09:09 has been cancelled.
This is due to a points failure.

By then it had already demonstrated how fragile the timetable is. The poor little shuttle unit is allowed three minutes to turn round at Greenford and four at West Ealing (those times vary only a little through the day). So it "works" on the principle of "late in, late out" or - as there's no gap after the peak for recovery - "late once, late all day". And it was more than ten minutes late when hit by the cancellation.

As noted earlier, the allowance for connections is dictated by the intervals between up and down trains, and it's been set up with three minutes for the up EMU. That's doable as it's cross-platform, but only if the Greenford train is less late than the EMU. This morning it wasn't for the first few trains. the back-up is the HC train about 15 minutes  later, and this morning half of those were cancelled (track circuit failure).

For up services it's zero minutes to connect off the EMU, but as it's over the bridge three wouldn't be enough anyway. So the official connection is off the HC - but if the Greenford is late enough, and you got the EMU because the HC was cancelled ... Maybe that's why the DMU lost ten minutes at its first visit back to West Ealing (though commuters outward towards Greenford can't be that numerous, surely?).

Oh well, maybe you should never trust the first service on a new timetable. I remember doing that once when going to catch a plane, only to be delayed by half an hour because the driver's instructions said his unit had to be coupled to the one in the bay (at Reading) and the station crew ("shunters", in some sense) had no such instructions. But that's another story ...


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: grahame on January 03, 2017, 03:11:25 pm
Press release from GWR - https://www.gwr.com/about-us/media-centre/news/2017/january/over-13000-more-seats-are-available-on-gwr-rail-services-today

Quote
Over 13,000 more seats are available on GWR rail services today

Tuesday 03rd January 2017

Over 13,000 more seats will be available on GWR rail services today following the completion of Christmas engineering work in London and the Thames Valley.

The opening of new bay platforms at Hayes & Harlington station means that GWR are able to run more frequent services with brand new electric trains. The eight carriage Electrostar trains have 262 more seats per service than the two carriage trains they are replacing; providing 6,550 more seats a day in each direction.

GWR Managing Director Mark Hopwood said:

"The Thames Valley is one of the most popular rail corridors in the UK.  We have promised the current fleet would be upgraded to provide much needed additional capacity and more comfortable, quieter journeys.

"We started to run our first new electric trains in September and with this Christmas work completed, on time, I am delighted to say that we can now deliver even more of those improvements – with our half hourly services between London Paddington and Hayes & Harlington."

New Electrostar trains will deliver consistent, high quality travel for customers across the Thames Valley, offering at-seat power sockets, air conditioning, extra luggage space and free WiFi for customers.

The move is part of the biggest fleet upgrade in a generation on the Great Western network, helping to drive improved journey times, increased capacity and greater comfort.

Further improvements will be seen across the Thames Valley as the Electrostar trains gradually replace the diesel Turbo trains currently in use in the region, and Network Rail continues work to electrify the Great Western Mainline.

From today a new, half-hourly electric service will operate between Hayes & Harlington, replacing direct services between Greenford and London Paddington. With electric trains unable to operate on the Greenford branch line, diesel Turbo services will continue between Greenford and West Ealing.

The first four of 45 Class 387, or GWR Electrostar, four-carriage trains were introduced in September and provided an additional 1,400 seats between Hayes & Harlington and London Paddington at the busiest times every day for commuters.

This increase in services is possible following the successful completion of Network Rail’s biggest ever Christmas programme of work. The work included the completion of a new bay platform at Hayes & Harlington and sidings at West Ealing as well as work to modernise the infrastructure in readiness for the start of Crossrail services.

Existing diesel Turbo trains will be cascaded to other parts of the GWR network, providing additional capacity where it is needed most.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: hertzsprung on January 04, 2017, 08:56:54 am
Quote
The opening of new bay platforms at Hayes & Harlington station means that GWR are able to run more frequent services with brand new electric trains. The eight carriage Electrostar trains have 262 more seats per service than the two carriage trains they are replacing; providing 6,550 more seats a day in each direction.
How many new bay platforms are there?  Isn't it just the one?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 04, 2017, 11:08:42 am
Isn't it just the one?

It's none really as Platform 5 has been there all along.  "Reopening the lengthened Platform 5" would have been rather more accurate.   ;)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: DaveHarries on January 06, 2017, 04:53:52 pm
I am unsure if GWR have commenced to transfer some of the Class 165s and 166s westward as a result of the introduction of these new Class 387s but I drove past St. Philips Marsh depot (Bristol) this morning and found Class 166 no. 166215 parked up.

Photo (taken from the public side of a wire fence):
https://www.flickr.com/photos/14103794@N04/32144043335/in/dateposted-public/

HTIOI,
Dave


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on January 06, 2017, 06:12:08 pm
I am unsure if GWR have commenced to transfer some of the Class 165s and 166s westward...
It's the first complete* unit to move for initial depot staff familiarisation, and probably driver trainers will get involved at some stage.  The move was reported a few days ago in a number of other forums.   

(* I believe they also have half of a damaged two car unit at the moment as well while the oterhe end gets repaired up north somewhere.)

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on January 07, 2017, 10:13:27 am
I was initially surprised that GWR release a 2-car 165 from the Greenford service but send a 3-car 166 to Bristol, but I suppose that for familiarisation purposes St Philip’s Marsh needs a set that has everything eg air-con, trailer car non-driving car etc.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on January 12, 2017, 12:40:08 pm
There may be some physical obstacles that need resolving

I think one Ground Position Signal has had to be physically removed for the time being, but suspect that 'Electric Train' is correct in that it's mostly just waiting to get the paperwork signed.  There's no reason why the all-day service in January can't operate with the current restrictions as long as the new bay platform and crossover at Hayes are commissioned by then, though it would be nice if the restriction of calling at Hanwell could be sorted out by then as well.  A more frequent service would be really useful there as there's lots of growth potential that the current 30-minute interval service is stifling.

I notice that the Class 387 Paddington – Hayes shuttles are still not calling at Hanwell.  Is this because of the outstanding gauging issues - I presume platform height and/or stepping gap?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: stuving on January 12, 2017, 12:47:17 pm
... Is this because of the outstanding gouging issues ...

I hope it's not that far out of gauge!


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 12, 2017, 01:06:21 pm
I think it's a station lighting issue which means it doesn't meet standards regarding despatch for trains of that length.  It might also be a case of the performance risk of another station call on a fairly intensive service with quite tight turnaround times.  A shame, as Hanwell does warrant a 15-minute interval service in my opinion.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on January 13, 2017, 09:33:48 am
The lighting issue sounds a plausible explanation, I presume that Crossrail will be upgrading it in due course.   In the current climate I can understand that any TOC introducing DOO trains will be careful to fully comply with the relevant standards.

Hanwell is I think busier than Acton Main Line, so the latter would logically be the stop to leave out if necessary to maintain a reliable 30 minute service with 2 trains.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on January 13, 2017, 06:05:30 pm
There may be some physical obstacles that need resolving

I think one Ground Position Signal has had to be physically removed for the time being, but suspect that 'Electric Train' is correct in that it's mostly just waiting to get the paperwork signed.  There's no reason why the all-day service in January can't operate with the current restrictions as long as the new bay platform and crossover at Hayes are commissioned by then, though it would be nice if the restriction of calling at Hanwell could be sorted out by then as well.  A more frequent service would be really useful there as there's lots of growth potential that the current 30-minute interval service is stifling.

I notice that the Class 387 Paddington – Hayes shuttles are still not calling at Hanwell.  Is this because of the outstanding gauging issues - I presume platform height and/or stepping gap?

Doubt it will be gauging as that would prevent the trains running or mean a low speed in which case they may as well stop, it could be train / platform stepping or the platforms are not long enough for 8 car trains and the SDO has yet to be fitted; ultimately the 387 are not destined to serve Hanwell once cross rail is operational so there is no urgency to fit SDO.

Also Hanwell although a GWR station its served by Heathrow Connect so there could be some franchise / revenue issues perhaps


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 14, 2017, 01:04:07 pm
The SDO is fitted and working and needed at most other stations.  Like I said, I think it's a lighting and/or pathing issue.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on January 14, 2017, 02:43:36 pm
That's good as (from what I reading on other fora about platforms to be extended, or not), it's definitely going to be needed at places like Midgham and Aldermaston in my locale.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: DidcotPunter on January 30, 2017, 02:23:34 pm
It is reported elsewhere that the new EMU sidings at West Ealing are now being used by the 387s and that the contract with Hitachi for the use of North Pole depot ends this month. It looks like a number of units will be dragged to/from Reading Traincare Depot.

Also, next Sunday a night of testing is scheduled for a 387 unit between Reading TCD and Didcot on the electrified test section. This is the first time the 387s will have ventured west of Reading under their own power and is a proving run to assess how the units perform under the new OLE (there have been electrical interference issues with with IEPs apparently).

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/DID/2017/02/05/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

This is apparently a precursor to driver training starting over the test section.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on January 30, 2017, 10:26:52 pm
Quote
It is reported elsewhere that the new EMU sidings at West Ealing are now being used by the 387s

I came out of PAD on a fairly late train last Thurs evening (26/1) and I think there was at least one 387 parked there.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Oxonhutch on February 17, 2017, 09:03:17 am
I see that the first unit has been vandalised in the West Ealing sidings overnight. I do wish that the punishments for this type of crime would act as a suitable deterrent to these criminals.  >:(


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: lordgoata on February 17, 2017, 09:16:05 am
Oh - you saying that just reminded me, I saw (I assume the same unit just outside of H&H) early last Saturday morning on my way to Paddington, and it was covered in graffiti  ::)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 17, 2017, 10:24:52 am
I think a few have been targeted over the weeks since West Ealing stabling point was opened.  Not sure what they have in terms of CCTV and security, but most people I spoke to who had heard about the new sidings said they expected it to be a problem at that location.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: eightf48544 on February 17, 2017, 10:35:38 am
Basically you can get onto the tracks easily from the Plasser level crossing on the Greenford line.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: a-driver on February 18, 2017, 12:01:13 pm
I think a few have been targeted over the weeks since West Ealing stabling point was opened.  Not sure what they have in terms of CCTV and security, but most people I spoke to who had heard about the new sidings said they expected it to be a problem at that location.

Obvious it was going to happen. Such a stupid location to stable trains.  Don't know about CCTV but I believe there's a security guard employed at the site, goes by the name Stevie Wonder!!


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: eightf48544 on February 23, 2017, 12:51:23 pm
At least 4 units stabled in sidings on Tuesday. When i cam bacl noticed tha there are rows of knee high floodlights alongside hardstanding. Very bright.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 23, 2017, 01:46:22 pm
Another one daubed with childish doodle's, sorry, artistic tags, today.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: lordgoata on February 23, 2017, 03:44:16 pm
I'm not surprised if NR/GWR are now providing them with flood lighting! They'll be supplying coffee Red Bull next! :o ;D


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: patch38 on February 23, 2017, 04:22:07 pm
Just drop the OLE on the adjacent siding by a couple of metres overnight. That'll save on graffiti and Red Bull.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on February 25, 2017, 03:23:01 am
... or send a couple of BTP officers out there, with tasers ...  :P



Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on February 25, 2017, 08:16:45 am
... or send a couple of BTP officers out there, with tasers ...  :P



no way to carry them.....both hands already busy with coffee and donuts.



Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: bignosemac on February 28, 2017, 01:34:19 am
<yawn>

Tired, and not very funny cliché. When did you last see a bobby on duty with a coffee in one hand and doughnut in the other?  ::)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on February 28, 2017, 05:58:55 am
<yawn>

Tired, and not very funny cliché. When did you last see a bobby on duty with a coffee in one hand and doughnut in the other?  ::)

Don't take life so seriously  :)  x


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 28, 2017, 09:10:50 am
<yawn>

Tired, and not very funny cliché. When did you last see a bobby on duty with a coffee in one hand and doughnut in the other?  ::)

You should know by now that TG's shots are mostly of the cheap variety.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: patch38 on February 28, 2017, 09:33:40 am
Some orange-suited gents with a meaty pressure washer tackling one of the units this morning...


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 28, 2017, 10:02:49 am
Shame you used the word 'units' rather than 'perpetrators'...  :-\


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on February 28, 2017, 01:19:37 pm
<yawn>

Tired, and not very funny cliché. When did you last see a bobby on duty with a coffee in one hand and doughnut in the other?  ::)

You should know by now that TG's shots are mostly of the cheap variety.

How dare you Sir! .......I may be easy, but I'm never cheap!  ;)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 21, 2017, 10:38:25 pm
I thought it'd be useful to provide a summary of the trains due to be formed by Class 387s coming from further afield than Hayes & Harlington from 22nd May onwards:

Services towards London Paddington:
2P14, 06:56 Maidenhead to Paddington, calling Taplow (06:59), Burnham (07:02), Slough (07:07), Langley (07:11), Iver (07:14), West Drayton (07:18), Hayes & Harlington (07:23), Southall (07:27), Ealing Broadway (07:33) and London Paddington (07:46).
1P93, 07:33 Maidenhead to Paddington, non-stop to London Paddington (08:04).
1P94, 07:42 Maidenhead to Paddington, calling Taplow (07:45), Slough (07:51) and London Paddington (08:21).
2P25, 08:29 Slough to Paddington, calling Langley (08:32), West Drayton (08:39), Hayes & Harlington (08:43), Southall (08:47), Ealing Broadway (08:53) and London Paddington (09:04).
1P97, 08:42 Maidenhead to Paddington, calling Taplow (08:46), Slough (08:51), Southall (09:01) and London Paddington (09:22).
2P32, 09:07 Maidenhead to Paddington, calling Slough (09:14), West Drayton (09:21), Hayes & Harlington (09:28), Southall (09:32), Ealing Broadway (09:38) and London Paddington (09:49).
1P98, 09:43 Slough to Paddington, non-stop to London Paddington (10:13).
2P73, 18:18 Maidenhead to Paddington, calling Slough (18:25), Langley (18:29), Iver (18:32), West Drayton (18:37), Hayes & Harlington (18:41), Ealing Broadway (18:48) and London Paddington (18:59).


Services from London Paddington:
2S80, 09:09 Paddington to Slough, non-stop to Slough (09:34).
1N40, 16:09 Paddington to Maidenhead, calling Slough (16:34) and Maidenhead (16:42).
1N42, 16:42 Paddington to Maidenhead, non-stop to Maidenhead (17:13).
2D55, 17:14 Paddington to Maidenhead, calling Ealing Broadway (17:23), Hayes & Harlington (17:29), West Drayton (17:34), Langley (17:41), Slough (17:46), Burnham (17:51), and Maidenhead (18:05).
1N44, 17:42 Paddington to Maidenhead, calling Slough (18:04), and Maidenhead (18:13).
1N52, 18:42 Paddington to Maidenhead, calling Slough (19:04), and Maidenhead (19:14).
1N62, 19:36 Paddington to Maidenhead, non-stop to Maidenhead (20:00).

A fairly mixed bag of calling patterns and timings, three calling at Taplow in the up direction but none in the down for example.  Some are trains that run now, and some are new or amended from the current timetable, and there's quite a lot of empty stock movements to get the stock in position which will be a test of the track capacity.

All services are formed by three different diagrams (all hopefully 8-car), though one of the evening ones swaps about with one of the Paddington-Hayes EMU diagrams, so that's a total of five EMU diagrams required per day for all of the 387 diagrams.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Western Enterprise on March 22, 2017, 09:37:25 am
I thought it'd be useful to provide a summary of the trains due to be formed by Class 387s coming from further afield than Hayes & Harlington from 22nd May onwards:

Services towards London Paddington:
2P14, 06:56 Maidenhead to Paddington, calling Taplow (06:59), Burnham (07:02), Slough (07:07), Langley (07:11), Iver (07:14), West Drayton (07:18), Hayes & Harlington (07:23), Southall (07:27), Ealing Broadway (07:33) and London Paddington (07:46).
1P93, 07:33 Maidenhead to Paddington, non-stop to London Paddington (08:04).
1P94, 07:42 Maidenhead to Paddington, calling Taplow (07:45), Slough (07:51) and London Paddington (08:21).
2P25, 08:29 Slough to Paddington, calling Langley (08:32), West Drayton (08:39), Hayes & Harlington (08:43), Southall (08:47), Ealing Broadway (08:53) and London Paddington (09:04).
1P97, 08:42 Maidenhead to Paddington, calling Taplow (08:46), Slough (08:51), Southall (09:01) and London Paddington (09:22).
2P32, 09:07 Maidenhead to Paddington, calling Slough (09:14), West Drayton (09:21), Hayes & Harlington (09:28), Southall (09:32), Ealing Broadway (09:38) and London Paddington (09:49).
1P98, 09:43 Slough to Paddington, non-stop to London Paddington (10:13).
2P73, 18:18 Maidenhead to Paddington, calling Slough (18:25), Langley (18:29), Iver (18:32), West Drayton (18:37), Hayes & Harlington (18:41), Ealing Broadway (18:48) and London Paddington (18:59).


Services from London Paddington:
2S80, 09:09 Paddington to Slough, non-stop to Slough (09:34).
1N40, 16:09 Paddington to Maidenhead, calling Slough (16:34) and Maidenhead (16:42).
1N42, 16:42 Paddington to Maidenhead, non-stop to Maidenhead (17:13).
2D55, 17:14 Paddington to Maidenhead, calling Ealing Broadway (17:23), Hayes & Harlington (17:29), West Drayton (17:34), Langley (17:41), Slough (17:46), Burnham (17:51), and Maidenhead (18:05).
1N44, 17:42 Paddington to Maidenhead, calling Slough (18:04), and Maidenhead (18:13).
1N52, 18:42 Paddington to Maidenhead, calling Slough (19:04), and Maidenhead (19:14).
1N62, 19:36 Paddington to Maidenhead, non-stop to Maidenhead (20:00).

A fairly mixed bag of calling patterns and timings, three calling at Taplow in the up direction but none in the down for example.  Some are trains that run now, and some are new or amended from the current timetable, and there's quite a lot of empty stock movements to get the stock in position which will be a test of the track capacity.

All services are formed by three different diagrams (all hopefully 8-car), though one of the evening ones swaps about with one of the Paddington-Hayes EMU diagrams, so that's a total of five EMU diagrams required per day for all of the 387 diagrams.

Good news is that it looks like another, new , fast train to and from Maidenhead in the Peaks.  :)
Bad news is that it takes just as long as an old smoky diesel...
Q: Can't they put the eleccy's on the mains?
A: Probably no pathways  :(


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on March 22, 2017, 10:51:57 am
correct, I believe. And they're slower. Even 15mph (plus any stops) makes a difference


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: onthecushions on March 22, 2017, 11:36:50 am

The first electric services must run to diesel timings. However their superior performance means that timetable compliance improves, as does capacity, dramatically.

1P93 up has 31 minutes non-stop whereas 1N62 down has 24 minutes - expect that to be regularly beaten.

Spring has finally come!

OTC


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: chrisr_75 on March 22, 2017, 11:46:29 am

The first electric services must run to diesel timings. However their superior performance means that timetable compliance improves, as does capacity, dramatically.

1P93 up has 31 minutes non-stop whereas 1N62 down has 24 minutes - expect that to be regularly beaten.

Spring has finally come!

OTC

In my opinion the increased capacity (at least 2 coaches on every train, assuming 8 car sets are diagrammed as II suggests) and superior interior environment represent greater improvements than shaving a minute or two off a 20-25 minute journey.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: eightf48544 on March 22, 2017, 12:31:57 pm
Don't get too used to the 387 the cattle wagons are coming in 2019.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 22, 2017, 12:48:46 pm
As OTC says, with the initial services it's very much shoehorning them into the current timetable.  When the wires are available to Didcot I would hope that the timetable will be recast to take advantage of their quicker acceleration and top speed, and of course the timetable must be recast substantially Dec 2018 for the first proper IEP timetable and then again the following year for the Elizabeth Line opening.

Regarding main line running, 1P93 (07:33 MAI-PAD) is booked on the main lines after Dolphin Junction (east of Slough), and 1N62 (19:36 PAD-MAI) is booked main lines until Slough West.  All the rest are booked on the relief lines.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on March 22, 2017, 12:53:31 pm
Quote
1P93 up has 31 minutes non-stop whereas 1N62 down has 24 minutes - expect that to be regularly beaten.

Capacity at Paddington also a problem, 1P93 for example will cross over to the main line at Slough, but then takes 11 minutes from Acton to Paddington in order to wait for the 08:00 to Bristol to depart from platform 4

1N62 also runs mainline as far as Slough (beaten by II)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on April 06, 2017, 10:20:27 pm
I thought it'd be useful to provide a summary of the trains due to be formed by Class 387s coming from further afield than Hayes & Harlington from 22nd May onwards:

Services towards London Paddington:
2P14, 06:56 Maidenhead to Paddington, calling Taplow (06:59), Burnham (07:02), Slough (07:07), Langley (07:11), Iver (07:14), West Drayton (07:18), Hayes & Harlington (07:23), Southall (07:27), Ealing Broadway (07:33) and London Paddington (07:46).
1P93, 07:33 Maidenhead to Paddington, non-stop to London Paddington (08:04).
1P94, 07:42 Maidenhead to Paddington, calling Taplow (07:45), Slough (07:51) and London Paddington (08:21).
2P25, 08:29 Slough to Paddington, calling Langley (08:32), West Drayton (08:39), Hayes & Harlington (08:43), Southall (08:47), Ealing Broadway (08:53) and London Paddington (09:04).
1P97, 08:42 Maidenhead to Paddington, calling Taplow (08:46), Slough (08:51), Southall (09:01) and London Paddington (09:22).
2P32, 09:07 Maidenhead to Paddington, calling Slough (09:14), West Drayton (09:21), Hayes & Harlington (09:28), Southall (09:32), Ealing Broadway (09:38) and London Paddington (09:49).
1P98, 09:43 Slough to Paddington, non-stop to London Paddington (10:13).
2P73, 18:18 Maidenhead to Paddington, calling Slough (18:25), Langley (18:29), Iver (18:32), West Drayton (18:37), Hayes & Harlington (18:41), Ealing Broadway (18:48) and London Paddington (18:59).


Services from London Paddington:
2S80, 09:09 Paddington to Slough, non-stop to Slough (09:34).
1N40, 16:09 Paddington to Maidenhead, calling Slough (16:34) and Maidenhead (16:42).
1N42, 16:42 Paddington to Maidenhead, non-stop to Maidenhead (17:13).
2D55, 17:14 Paddington to Maidenhead, calling Ealing Broadway (17:23), Hayes & Harlington (17:29), West Drayton (17:34), Langley (17:41), Slough (17:46), Burnham (17:51), and Maidenhead (18:05).
1N44, 17:42 Paddington to Maidenhead, calling Slough (18:04), and Maidenhead (18:13).
1N52, 18:42 Paddington to Maidenhead, calling Slough (19:04), and Maidenhead (19:14).
1N62, 19:36 Paddington to Maidenhead, non-stop to Maidenhead (20:00).

Assuming everything is going to plan, according to RTT the next batch of services from 3rd July have been loaded. These include the following departures from Maidenhead:
2P06 05:52
2P09 06:21
2P17 07:17
2P21 07:51
2P28 08:26
2P35 09:34

All the above currently operate from Reading and therefore Twyford sees it lose out on all the above services. Three additional stops will be made at Twyford however and these include:
2K27 06:55 Newbury to Reading will continue on to Maidenhead and stop at Twyford (07:41) running as 2F21
2F28 08:08 Reading to Maidenhead calling at Twyford (08:14)
1P95 09:15 HST from Reading to Paddington will depart at 09:12 and stop additionally at Twyford (09:19)

In the other direction, services from Paddington to Maidenhead include:
2D54 16:58
2D61 17:57
1N50 18:10
2D71 18:57
Again a few less stops at Twyford occur as a result

Numerous other alterations as well around the peaks, including the 2H60 Maidenhead to Henley departing at 18:53, this along with 1N50 above replaces the direct 1H52 18:10 Paddington to Henley. (The other 2 direct services between Henley and Paddington both remain in each direction)



Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: eightf48544 on April 07, 2017, 04:11:44 pm
Keep an eye on realtime trains for this weekend. It may be that a 387 will come out to play between Stockly Jn and Maidenhead.

Will probably be in the middle of the night


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on April 07, 2017, 06:27:02 pm
Keep an eye on realtime trains for this weekend. It may be that a 387 will come out to play between Stockly Jn and Maidenhead.
Will probably be in the middle of the night
Guessing this (http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/V37472/2017/04/08/advanced) has something to do with it, a 387 being dragged on Saturday night from Reading TCD to Hayes
And then returning (http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/V70222/2017/04/09/advanced) Sunday morning.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: eightf48544 on April 08, 2017, 03:44:11 pm
Yep there appear to be 8 shuttles between Hayes/ Southall and Maidenhead tonight. Between 01:00 from Hayes and 07:24 from Maidenhead on Realtime trains. All booked as FRGT in 165 timings. Also all seem to be booked ML.

If i'm awake might look out for the 07:24.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on April 09, 2017, 08:49:44 am
Yep there appear to be 8 shuttles between Hayes/ Southall and Maidenhead tonight. Between 01:00 from Hayes and 07:24 from Maidenhead on Realtime trains. All booked as FRGT in 165 timings. Also all seem to be booked ML.

If i'm awake might look out for the 07:24.


One of the tests required on new electrification is to run a train called "Mentor." This train is designed watch the wire over the pan and has sensors to measure contact pressure etc.   Mentor is BR Research vintage, and there is only one and is quite busy, when it works  ::) (no one was willing to fun the upgrades to it for a few years). 

387's have CCTV fitted that constantly records the pan, if you see them at night your notice a light coming out of the pan well illuminating the wire.  Also with modern traction units they have sensors fitted that work with the traction system and part of the fault / maintenance monitoring.   Temporary mods that can be done to connect recording instruments to the unit to that can give the commissioning engineer enough data to sign off the contact system into service.

So my guess is the Crossrail project are using the 387 in lieu of Mentor


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: eightf48544 on April 12, 2017, 04:18:52 pm
Two 387s coupled made several runs from Hayes to Maidenhead early Sunday morning 03:30. this was later than planed due to inspecting the O/H at  Slough for an obstruction (kite?). Nothing found.

Runs considered successful.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on April 12, 2017, 07:22:25 pm
Assuming everything is going to plan, according to RTT the next batch of services from 3rd July have been loaded. These include the following departures from Maidenhead:
2P06 05:52
2P09 06:21
2P17 07:17
2P21 07:51
2P28 08:26
2P35 09:34

All the above currently operate from Reading and therefore Twyford sees it lose out on all the above services. Three additional stops will be made at Twyford however and these include:
2K27 06:55 Newbury to Reading will continue on to Maidenhead and stop at Twyford (07:41) running as 2F21
2F28 08:08 Reading to Maidenhead calling at Twyford (08:14)
1P95 09:15 HST from Reading to Paddington will depart at 09:12 and stop additionally at Twyford (09:19)

In the other direction, services from Paddington to Maidenhead include:
2D54 16:58
2D61 17:57
1N50 18:10
2D71 18:57
Again a few less stops at Twyford occur as a result

Numerous other alterations as well around the peaks, including the 2H60 Maidenhead to Henley departing at 18:53, this along with 1N50 above replaces the direct 1H52 18:10 Paddington to Henley. (The other 2 direct services between Henley and Paddington both remain in each direction)

I hadn't realised the service was to be further enhanced so soon!  Looks like another three diagrams worth, so if all 8-car that will be 16 units required for daily use.

That date also sees the first use of the Maidenhead Turnback Sidings (known as Maidenhead Reversing Sdgs) in RealTime Trains, as well as the Maidenhead Carriage Sdgs - though rather curiously there's one arrival booked into it on dates before then but no corresponding departure.  Might get busy in there!   ;)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: John R on April 12, 2017, 07:35:11 pm
And more to the point, how many more turbos will that release for use elsewhere I wonder?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: grahame on April 12, 2017, 07:41:30 pm
And more to the point, how many more turbos will that release for use elsewhere I wonder?

We are getting VERY close to the Severn Beach going 3 car 16x, I suspect, with certain single car services being able to move up to 2 car on a regular basis.   Mind you, I wonder if "elsewhere" might be to release 180s ....


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on April 13, 2017, 09:12:20 pm
And more to the point, how many more turbos will that release for use elsewhere I wonder?

We are getting VERY close to the Severn Beach going 3 car 16x, I suspect, with certain single car services being able to move up to 2 car on a regular basis.   Mind you, I wonder if "elsewhere" might be to release 180s ....

I had to review a gauging document for class 16x the ride height is being increased for platform clearance for the cascaded area, my part of the review was would the increase in ride height cause any third rail issues.  The ride height is being done prior to the cascade so some units could operate on the Gatwicks.

Tough decision .......... would the increased ride height effect third rail gauging  ::) ??? ;D 


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ellendune on April 13, 2017, 09:23:15 pm
Could you clarify what the ride height is please?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on April 14, 2017, 11:01:23 am
Could you clarify what the ride height is please?

I think in this context the entire body of the train is being raised by a few cm with respect to the 'as designed' condition.  A while back they were talking about fitting various shims between the bogies and the vehicle body, basically packing out the suspension.

This therefore provides additional gauge clearance at some platform edges on the route.   It presumably also means that some units will not easily couple with others.

Paul



Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on April 14, 2017, 07:12:07 pm
Could you clarify what the ride height is please?

I think in this context the entire body of the train is being raised by a few cm with respect to the 'as designed' condition.  A while back they were talking about fitting various shims between the bogies and the vehicle body, basically packing out the suspension.

This therefore provides additional gauge clearance at some platform edges on the route.   It presumably also means that some units will not easily couple with others.

Paul



yes that correct, I don't believe it effects the coupling of two units as the height increase is not that much


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: SandTEngineer on May 05, 2017, 06:34:03 pm
Travelled on my first Class 387 today (05/05/2017).  Quite impressed with the quality and finish and the quiteness of the ride.  One comment is that the passengers on the 8 coach service could have all been squeezed into a single coach... ::) :P


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on May 06, 2017, 09:23:30 am
Squeezing passengers in to the shortest possible train is not compulsory, although it does seem to be a feature of modern train travel!


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: eightf48544 on May 06, 2017, 09:50:11 am
I've always thought it odd that most modern suburban/provincial DMUs are 2 and 3 car whilst non IC (intercity) EMUs all seem to be all 4 or more cars.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: John R on May 06, 2017, 10:31:19 am
I've always thought it odd that most modern suburban/provincial DMUs are 2 and 3 car whilst non IC (intercity) EMUs all seem to be all 4 or more cars.

A couple of theories, the easier being that the more heavily trafficked routes are more likely to have been electrified, so can therefore justify the longer rolling stock.

However, I suspect it is more complex than that.  All other things being equal, a mix of 2 and 3 car trains on a route enables a close tailoring of demand in that you can have any length of train from 2 onwards.  For diesels, other than the additional cost of the cabs, there isn't much difference in the cost, as every coach is powered.  However, for emus, the traction equipment is one per train, so (as an example), 2 x 2 car sets costs a lot more than 1 x 4 car set, and would be overpowered. Therefore the balance swings more to having longer trains with fewer sets. 


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: dviner on May 06, 2017, 01:08:02 pm
However, I suspect it is more complex than that.  All other things being equal, a mix of 2 and 3 car trains on a route enables a close tailoring of demand in that you can have any length of train from 2 onwards.  For diesels, other than the additional cost of the cabs, there isn't much difference in the cost, as every coach is powered.  However, for emus, the traction equipment is one per train, so (as an example), 2 x 2 car sets costs a lot more than 1 x 4 car set, and would be overpowered. Therefore the balance swings more to having longer trains with fewer sets. 

Modern 2-car EMU sets are such a rarity that the electrification of the Marlow Branch is pretty much dead in the water.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: eightf48544 on May 06, 2017, 02:19:03 pm
It's a pity the 2 car 309s were scrapped although they would be grossly overpowered for the Marlow branch. Unless of course sunless there's a Barry for redundant EMUs.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: grahame on May 06, 2017, 03:10:59 pm
Unless of course sunless there's a Barry for redundant EMUs.

How about a Bourne End to Marlow shuttle using stock from:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preserved_EMUs_of_Southern_Railway
and there are also electric trains being converted - some as 2 coach units - to diesels:
http://vivarail.co.uk/vivarail-news/
and in due course there may be some vintage 2 coach units available from elsewhere:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-35495934

... then extend the London - Maidenhead electric serve that starts in July to Bourne End  ;D

There is a real need to be able to run heritage EMUs ... but so much extra complexity is involved as soon as any heritage operation starts to share with main line certified stuff.  Is there space at Marlow for a depot building?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on May 06, 2017, 05:20:46 pm
If and currently its a big if the Maidenhead / Bourne gets electrified, or indeed any of the TV branches.   The 387 are through corridor between units so with the use of SDO it would be feasible to run an 8 car unit Maidenhead / Bourne End, or do a 8 to 4 spilt at Maidenhead, but given in Crossrail mode there are no TV branches to Padd through services.  I believe the current pattern morning peaks of a 2 car 165 Bourne End Marlow and a 3 car 165/6 Maidenhead Bourne End with evening being a 2 car 165 Maidenhead Bourne perhaps a 3 car 165 is set in stone now for many years to come.

There is no funding at the moment for the TV branches to be wired, especially as Didcot / Oxford electrification is deferred

The biggest problem with the Bourne End Marlow line is the cost of altering the track work and platform extension at Bourne End to accommodate a 4 car unit.  It is unlikely the DfT or TOC would want to have a few odd 2 car units.



Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on May 20, 2017, 09:19:55 am
My understanding from folks I know in the project the final hurdle to run electric passenger services to Maidenhead has been signed of by the Office of Rail & Road.

Other than a major hic up the first electric passenger service will depart Maidenhead as timetabled


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 20, 2017, 12:02:50 pm
The first 'real' tangible benefits of electrification should be felt from Monday onwards.  I put real in brackets because the Hayes shuttles ran on (modified) existing infrastructure.

I'll be very interested to hear the thoughts of those who are set to benefit from next week onwards.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on May 20, 2017, 08:33:48 pm
The first 'real' tangible benefits of electrification should be felt from Monday onwards.  I put real in brackets because the Hayes shuttles ran on (modified) existing infrastructure.

I'll be very interested to hear the thoughts of those who are set to benefit from next week onwards.

There are limitations to the service that can be run, Kensal Green Feeder Station I understand has not been signed into use; this means all  electric (OLE) services out of Padd will have to rely on the original OOC Feeder Station which is planned to be decommissioned when Kensal EIS (EIS Enters Into Service)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on May 20, 2017, 09:37:06 pm
'EIS' now 'enters into service' in the Coffee Shop forum's acronyms page (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/acronyms.html).  ;)



Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: eightf48544 on May 21, 2017, 11:24:10 am
My view is that Maidenhead passengers will take to the 387s.

Faster, smother, quieter and cleaner.

The contrast between the 387 gliding out of Maidenhead (on Friday) with that lovely three phase sound and a Turbo on full throttle leaving another platform couldn't have been greater


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: johoare on May 21, 2017, 11:41:15 am
I agree.. particularly whilst the trains are starting and ending at Maidenhead. The increased capacity is going to make such a huge difference to the overcrowding.. (I hope!)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: DidcotPunter on May 22, 2017, 01:21:28 pm


There are limitations to the service that can be run, Kensal Green Feeder Station I understand has not been signed into use; this means all  electric (OLE) services out of Padd will have to rely on the original OOC Feeder Station which is planned to be decommissioned when Kensal EIS (EIS Enters Into Service)

Do we know when the commissioning (EIS) date for the Kensal Green feeder is?

When I went up to Paddington last week the feeder cables from the new Kensal Green station had been connected above the OLE on the mains and reliefs immediately west of the E&C flyover before Old Oak. I think this was done fairly recently. Presumably they need this to be commissioned before they can run a more intensive electric service to Maidenhead.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on May 22, 2017, 09:00:28 pm


There are limitations to the service that can be run, Kensal Green Feeder Station I understand has not been signed into use; this means all  electric (OLE) services out of Padd will have to rely on the original OOC Feeder Station which is planned to be decommissioned when Kensal EIS (EIS Enters Into Service)

Do we know when the commissioning (EIS) date for the Kensal Green feeder is?

When I went up to Paddington last week the feeder cables from the new Kensal Green station had been connected above the OLE on the mains and reliefs immediately west of the E&C flyover before Old Oak. I think this was done fairly recently. Presumably they need this to be commissioned before they can run a more intensive electric service to Maidenhead.

Believe there are some intertripping issues between NR and Grid when the did a short circuit test out on the NR infrastructure the Grid tripped; should not be difficult to resolve.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 26, 2017, 10:05:25 am
All three diagrams covered by 387s today.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: eightf48544 on May 26, 2017, 01:46:30 pm
3 diagrams? I thought one had to be Turbo as Network Rail were only allowing 2 units between Stockley and Maidenhead at any one time until Kensal Green is EIS.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 26, 2017, 05:14:40 pm
I guess they wanted to be cautious but are now happy that three units west of Airport Junction are going to be ok.  They are restricted to power notch three (out of four) for the same reasons.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on May 26, 2017, 05:46:59 pm
three units west of....  :)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: bobm on May 26, 2017, 05:59:50 pm
Having travelled on the erstwhile 17:42 to Bourne End in the past and witnessed how crowded it was, it was a delight to see the eight car double 387 set roll into platform 5 yesterday evening to form the 17:42 to Maidenhead.   

Although I didn't travel on it, it did seem well - but not uncomfortably - loaded when it departed - probably attracting passengers from other services.  Suspect the air conditioning was very welcome too!

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/387padd.jpg)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: eightf48544 on May 27, 2017, 04:01:41 pm
One thing to say for them they are quite! Hardly notice them passing the house.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on May 27, 2017, 04:19:47 pm
Is that quite quiet?  :)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: johoare on May 31, 2017, 09:43:47 pm
I had my first journey on one of these today.. Firstly the 7.33 MAI To PAD. 8 carriages starting from Maidenhead is almost a surreal experience whilst everyone adjusts their journey plans  to even out the really busy ones versus the quite empty EMUs..I reckon 1/10 of the seats were taken today I also got the 16.42 from PAD to MAI earlier and that was also quite empty.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on May 31, 2017, 10:00:52 pm
Wow!  You mean you could even breathe in - as well as out?  :o ::) ;D



Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 31, 2017, 10:25:59 pm
I had my first journey on one of these today.. Firstly the 7.33 MAI To PAD. 8 carriages starting from Maidenhead is almost a surreal experience whilst everyone adjusts their journey plans  to even out the really busy ones versus the quite empty EMUs..I reckon 1/10 of the seats were taken today I also got the 16.42 from PAD to MAI earlier and that was also quite empty.

Of course, don't get too used to empty trains starting at Maidenhead as the majority will be coming from Didcot and Reading in just over six months.  Rather a contrast on what's been before though.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Western Enterprise on June 01, 2017, 02:56:10 pm
I just missed the 07.33 MAI to PAD and so was on the 07.42 this morning, on the same EMU.
I thought the seats were quite hard and upright, perhaps with a few more bums on seats they may soften.... ;D.
Wouldn't like to come in from Didcot on one though, my arms got numb on the hand-rests.
Acceleration and braking were good, despite having to crawl along following a stopper.
Trouble with the build quality though, one of the panels on the toilet was oscillating really badly and certainly didn't contribute to the passenger experience, making a heck of a noise for a new vehicle. How something like this left the works is puzzling, perhaps they weren't tested on the gwml and somewhere rather smoother..  ???
W.E


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on June 01, 2017, 07:34:43 pm
I just missed the 07.33 MAI to PAD and so was on the 07.42 this morning, on the same EMU.
I thought the seats were quite hard and upright, perhaps with a few more bums on seats they may soften.... ;D.
Wouldn't like to come in from Didcot on one though, my arms got numb on the hand-rests.
Acceleration and braking were good, despite having to crawl along following a stopper.
Trouble with the build quality though, one of the panels on the toilet was oscillating really badly and certainly didn't contribute to the passenger experience, making a heck of a noise for a new vehicle. How something like this left the works is puzzling, perhaps they weren't tested on the gwml and somewhere rather smoother..  ???
W.E

Re Seats - They are to the standard 387 softness the reference standard is a church pew  ;D
Re Acceleration and braking - that is the big benefit of electric traction with regen braking
Re Build quality - try a journey of a Southern Route the GWML is a bowling green in comparison.



Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: johoare on June 02, 2017, 08:16:44 pm
Wow!  You mean you could even breathe in - as well as out?  :o ::) ;D



Yes.. I'd forgotten what that's like  ;D :P


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on June 05, 2017, 06:26:58 pm
1742 from Paddington to Maidenhead shortformed (only 4 carriages), 10 minutes late departing (no announcements from driver) and once again missed out Burnham.....seems to be becoming a pattern for some reason. 


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: johoare on June 05, 2017, 07:18:07 pm
The 7.33am MAI to PAD was 4 carriages instead of 8 this morning but not too much of an issue whilst people still don't know about it and the 7.08 madness (you need to see it to believe it - the panicked look in people's eyes as they realise they've still got a chance of getting on it and don't mind who they knock down in their bid to run up the stairs to the platform) continues  ::) ::) ;D


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on June 06, 2017, 05:45:07 pm
Well the 1742 to Maidenhead is continuing to disappoint......cancelled tonight, just disappeared from the boards, no announcements, nothing.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: patch38 on June 06, 2017, 05:52:49 pm
Apparently many delays this evening: person hit by train somewhere. Currently on other 17:42 to Cheltenham crawling along behind delayed 17:30.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on June 06, 2017, 06:01:01 pm
That was between Taunton & Tiverton, don't think it would impact Paddington-Maidenhead electric services, but yeah there's been a bit of everything today......


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: patch38 on June 06, 2017, 06:21:04 pm
TM on our service said that had affected much of the inbound traffic to PAD hence knock-on delays to outbound. But you are right - shouldn't affect local services unless the pathing is now up the creek.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on June 06, 2017, 06:36:22 pm
TM on our service said that had affected much of the inbound traffic to PAD hence knock-on delays to outbound. But you are right - shouldn't affect local services unless the pathing is now up the creek.

Everything's up the Creek tonight mate.....apart the GWR staff service disruption disappearing act which worked superbly at Paddington!  :(


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: johoare on June 06, 2017, 07:22:31 pm
Realtime trains said the 17.42 was cancelled due to an issue with the train crew.. but yes no announcements.. it just vanished as TaplowGreen said..


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on June 07, 2017, 06:33:52 pm
Realtime trains said the 17.42 was cancelled due to an issue with the train crew.. but yes no announcements.. it just vanished as TaplowGreen said..

15 minutes late at Maidenhead tonight, so all the Marlow branch customers missed their connection. For a service launched with so many fanfares, it's proving rather a disappointment.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 07, 2017, 08:10:18 pm
Certainly a poor week so far.  The 17:14 and 19:12 were cancelled from Paddington.  Can't remember too many fanfares though - I think it was deliberately quite a low key soft launch.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on June 07, 2017, 08:30:20 pm
Hmm.  ::)

Their press release, sent to me by e-mail on 22 May 2017 by Great Western Railway, seemed to be fairly high key:

Quote
GWR launches electric train services to Maidenhead

Another major step forward for London and Thames Valley passengers
 
GWR has taken another significant step today with new eight carriage Electrostar services now running between Paddington and Maidenhead.
 
As part of the biggest fleet upgrade in a generation, GWR is introducing the new electric trains between Maidenhead and London Paddington. By the Autumn this will increase seating capacity in the Thames Valley by 40%. In early 2018, electric services will extend to Reading and Didcot Parkway.
 
As well as replacing older diesel stock in London and the Thames Valley, these brand new electric trains will provide more peak capacity between Maidenhead and London Paddington, offering a better spread of seats where they are most needed.
 
A further three eight carriage Electrostar trains will come into service just two months later in July, for the same London Paddington to Maidenhead route.
 
GWR Managing Director Mark Hopwood said: “The Thames Valley is one of the most popular rail corridors in the UK. We have promised the current fleet would be upgraded to provide much needed additional capacity and more comfortable, quieter journeys. We started to run our first new electric trains between Paddington and Hayes & Harlington in September and increased this to a half hourly frequency at the start of the year. Today, I am delighted to announce that we have now extended these services to Maidenhead.”
 
The new trains will bolster GWR services in London and the Thames Valley, and in July the train operator will also be able to improve Bristol area services by using London rolling stock to provide more carriages, first on the Severn Beach Line, and then more widely.
 
As a result of Network Rail’s electrification work of the Great Western main line, the Marlow to Maidenhead branch now becomes a self-contained shuttle with a direct connection to the improved mainline services and the new GWR Electrostar trains. An extra 0906 Marlow to Maidenhead service will also run to improve connections to London for passengers.
 
Over 3 years a team of 800 Network Rail staff installed 1400 overhead structures and 225km of new wiring over the 12 mile stretch.
 
As well as the masts and wires, Network Rail had to completely re-signal the area, complete 12 track lowers, demolish and rebuild 5 bridges including 2 major road bridges, divert a 132kV electricity supply from overhead pylons through a new 1.5km bored tunnel under the railway plus a mass of ancillary works all on an incredibly busy part of the network.
 
Recognising the importance of our suburban branch lines, GWR are also improving the service frequency between Henley-on-Thames and Twyford to half-hourly throughout the day, closing a gap in our service during off peak hours.
 
New Electrostar trains will deliver consistent, high quality travel for customers across the Thames Valley, offering at-seat power sockets, air conditioning, extra luggage space and free WiFi for customers.
 
The move is part of the biggest fleet upgrade in a generation on the Great Western network, helping to drive improved journey times, increased capacity and greater comfort.
 
Further improvements will be seen across the Thames Valley as the Electrostar trains gradually replace the diesel Turbo trains currently in use in the region, as Network Rail continues work to electrify the Great Western Mainline. Electrostar services are expected to run between Paddington and Didcot from January 2018.

The first two eight carriage Electrostar trains were introduced in September and provided an additional 1,400 seats between Hayes & Harlington and London Paddington at the busiest times every day for commuters. Today sees the introduction of further six of what will eventually be a total of 45 new four-carriage sets which will operate in eight carriage, and soon to be 12 carriage formations.

Existing diesel Turbo trains will be cascaded to other parts of the GWR network, providing additional capacity where it is needed most.

Along with the introduction of new Intercity Express Trains for long distance routes later this year, these new trains mark the biggest fleet upgrade in a generation, and will help transform the Great Western from having one of the oldest fleets of rolling stock, to one of the newest operating in the UK.
 

I didn't post details at the time (simply due to having limited time at my disposal), but some of the claims in that press release do now sound rather hollow ...  ::)



Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on June 07, 2017, 08:44:30 pm
https://www.gwr.com/about-us/building-on-our-heritage


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 07, 2017, 10:35:17 pm
Whilst taking your point(s), I'd describe 'high key' and 'big fanfare' as large amounts of press coverage, appearances by the SoS for transport, NR Chairman/Chief Exec, local MP's (though one of them might have been a little busy!), not to mention bunting on the station, free cake, a brass band and so on.  ;)

Not sure how many of those happened, but the press coverage certainly seemed very muted, and there was little in the way of staff briefings and so on.

It seems a lot of people don't even know that some of the new trains exist judging by Jo's post of a couple of days ago.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on June 07, 2017, 10:52:53 pm
Thanks for your observations, IndustryInsider.  ;)

Press coverage of this particular service improvement was probably muted, due to other events in the news, in Manchester and at London Bridge, for example - and in the lead up to the general election.  And it was / is half term week. ::)

We'll perhaps see how things really develop from next week onwards.  ;)



Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 08, 2017, 10:14:51 am
Another disappointing morning of delays and cancellations on arrivals at Paddington and the other GWR routes, though rather surprisingly the Maidenhead/Slough electrics managed to avoid getting caught up, with everything arriving (as an 8-car) within PPM charter except 2S80, 09:09 PAD-SLO which arrived 6 minutes late.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Oxonhutch on June 08, 2017, 11:27:11 am
A quick question for II re Maidenhead signalling with the new layout for 387s et al. if I may?

On the Down Main there are now four diverging routes available from signal 569 (in addition to the Down Main itself): platforms 2 through 5 – Platform 2 being the new addition.  How is this route signalled?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 08, 2017, 01:37:08 pm
The route to platform 2 is signalled from 569 signal with an 'X' in a theatre box and no junction indicator.  As it's for reversing movements only I guess they wanted to make it distinctive.  Platforms 3,4 and 5 are indicated by the more standard Junction indicators 4,5 and 6.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Oxonhutch on June 08, 2017, 01:53:09 pm
Thanks II.  That explains the theatre box I saw passing slowly through - and looking back - on the Up Main this morning.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: W5tRailfinder on June 08, 2017, 03:12:35 pm
Another quick question for II regarding signalling at Maidenhead.

Is signal 575 at west end of platform 2 a fixed red?

If it is I'll report it to Open Train Times as such.

I'll also report dodgy signal-berth 1616 and a few incorrect route settings on the same map as well. 


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 08, 2017, 03:43:10 pm
Yes it is.  So is 564 on the down main in the up direction to the east of Maidenhead.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: SandTEngineer on June 08, 2017, 04:35:32 pm
The route to platform 2 is signalled from 569 signal with an 'X' in a theatre box and no junction indicator.  As it's for reversing movements only I guess they wanted to make it distinctive.  Platforms 3,4 and 5 are indicated by the more standard Junction indicators 4,5 and 6.
Just to add to this information posted by II.  An 'X' indication usually applies to a limit of shunt or nominally wrong direction movement exit signal.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 08, 2017, 11:00:42 pm
Another disappointing morning of delays and cancellations on arrivals at Paddington and the other GWR routes, though rather surprisingly the Maidenhead/Slough electrics managed to avoid getting caught up, with everything arriving (as an 8-car) within PPM charter except 2S80, 09:09 PAD-SLO which arrived 6 minutes late.

All 'on time' tonight as well, thought he 16:42 and 18:42 PAD-MAI were both cancelled due to a driver shortage - both trains being on the same diagram.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 09, 2017, 11:06:04 am
All Slough/Maidenhead 387s reached their destination within the PPM this morning, indeed all were either early or on time apart from the 09:09 PAD-SLO which arrived three minutes late.

It was an exceptional morning peak all round with many of the sectors reaching the magical 100% PPM.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on June 09, 2017, 11:51:55 am
Another disappointing morning of delays and cancellations on arrivals at Paddington and the other GWR routes, though rather surprisingly the Maidenhead/Slough electrics managed to avoid getting caught up, with everything arriving (as an 8-car) within PPM charter except 2S80, 09:09 PAD-SLO which arrived 6 minutes late.

All 'on time' tonight as well, thought he 16:42 and 18:42 PAD-MAI were both cancelled due to a driver shortage - both trains being on the same diagram.

......so all "on time"......apart from the ones which were cancelled! 😂.......driver shortage seems to be a growing issue at the moment and not just at the weekend when we're used to it.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 09, 2017, 11:59:26 am
Yes, that's right TG.  And driver shortages are a growing problem currently, though 387 training is currently going at quite a pace there are way too many trains being cancelled company wide for my liking.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 09, 2017, 01:31:44 pm
The route to platform 2 is signalled from 569 signal with an 'X' in a theatre box and no junction indicator.  As it's for reversing movements only I guess they wanted to make it distinctive.  Platforms 3,4 and 5 are indicated by the more standard Junction indicators 4,5 and 6.
Just to add to this information posted by II.  An 'X' indication usually applies to a limit of shunt or nominally wrong direction movement exit signal.

And I suppose I should've used the correct terminology of Standard Route Indicator instead of the rather old fashioned theatre box!  ;)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: SandTEngineer on June 09, 2017, 04:12:37 pm
The route to platform 2 is signalled from 569 signal with an 'X' in a theatre box and no junction indicator.  As it's for reversing movements only I guess they wanted to make it distinctive.  Platforms 3,4 and 5 are indicated by the more standard Junction indicators 4,5 and 6.
Just to add to this information posted by II.  An 'X' indication usually applies to a limit of shunt or nominally wrong direction movement exit signal.

And I suppose I should've used the correct terminology of Standard Route Indicator instead of the rather old fashioned theatre box!  ;)

....CfN is going to hate me, but two more abbreviations to add to the Acronyms and other Abbreviations page :P:

MARI = Miniature Alphanumeric Route Indicator

SARI = Standard Alphanumeric Route Indicator

A MARI is usually associated with a shunting signal or with subsidiary aspects (e.g. Calling On) on a main running signal

A SARI is usually associated with a main running aspect on a main signal

Like all things on the MDTR, caution is required as there is always the odd exception to the golden rule..... ::)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 09, 2017, 06:28:11 pm
With regards to the signal we were discussing, there's a MARI on the signal adjacent to that one with it's SARI.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 09, 2017, 10:41:11 pm
All Slough/Maidenhead 387s reached their destination within the PPM this morning, indeed all were either early or on time apart from the 09:09 PAD-SLO which arrived three minutes late.

A good evening peak as well - 18:18 MAI-PAD arriving 3 minutes late was the worst performer.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on June 09, 2017, 10:45:19 pm

....CfN is going to hate me, but two more abbreviations to add to the Acronyms and other Abbreviations page :P:


What do you mean, "... is going to ..."  :o ::) :P


On a slightly more serious note, I have indeed added those two new abbreviations to the Coffee Shop forum's list - and I really do welcome any such additions, from any of our members.  ;)



Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 12, 2017, 11:09:45 pm
All Slough/Maidenhead 387s reached their destination within the PPM this morning, indeed all were either early or on time apart from the 09:09 PAD-SLO which arrived three minutes late.

All pretty good today in the morning and evening peak.  09:09 PAD-SLO arrived 5 minutes late after being delayed by a late running connect between Ealing and Hayes, and two morning services were short formed as only a 4-car, but that was sorted by the evening.  All others made the PPM of less than 5 minutes late, with several arriving early again.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 14, 2017, 12:50:02 am
The 18:42 PAD-MAI arrived 8 mins late this evening, and the 09:09 PAD-SLO was 5 minutes late again, otherwise all made charter PPM again and were 8-cars as booked.

Perhaps the warmer weather will cause a few more problems later in the week, though I'm jetting off away for a few days so will stop monitoring them.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on June 14, 2017, 01:09:26 am
Enjoy your holiday, IndustryInsider!  ;) :D ;D



Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: johoare on June 15, 2017, 07:44:38 am
The 7.33 is attracting a few more people but is still relatively empty most days (if it's 8 carriages) and any "newbies" that get on all have the same slightly bemused look on their faces when confronted with so many empty seats to chose from  ::) ;D


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: BBM on June 15, 2017, 12:14:44 pm
I'm temporarily having to work more frequently in Ealing and my usual morning commute now from TWY is to change at MAI and wait for the 0656 electric stopper. I sit in the rear half of the rearmost car and there doesn't ever seem to be more than 3 or 4 other passengers in that part. The rearmost car only has doors opening at MAI, TAP and EAL  due to short platforms so it's a nice quiet environment.

Incidentally I've noticed that both doors of the 8th car seem to be on the platform at Burnham so I don't know why they're cut out for that particular station?



Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 03, 2017, 05:10:21 pm
The next batch of 387 worked services commenced today.

Units 387132, 133, 135, 136, 137, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 146, 147, 149, 150 and 151 all out and about this evening covering the required eight daily 8-car diagrams now needed.

Looking more and more like an electric suburban railway in the peaks now!


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 04, 2017, 11:39:58 am
Quote
I thought it'd be useful to provide a summary of the trains due to be formed by Class 387s coming from further afield than Hayes & Harlington from 22nd May onwards:

Services towards London Paddington:
2P14, 06:56 Maidenhead to Paddington, calling Taplow (06:59), Burnham (07:02), Slough (07:07), Langley (07:11), Iver (07:14), West Drayton (07:18), Hayes & Harlington (07:23), Southall (07:27), Ealing Broadway (07:33) and London Paddington (07:46).
1P93, 07:33 Maidenhead to Paddington, non-stop to London Paddington (08:04).
1P94, 07:42 Maidenhead to Paddington, calling Taplow (07:45), Slough (07:51) and London Paddington (08:21).
2P25, 08:29 Slough to Paddington, calling Langley (08:32), West Drayton (08:39), Hayes & Harlington (08:43), Southall (08:47), Ealing Broadway (08:53) and London Paddington (09:04).
1P97, 08:42 Maidenhead to Paddington, calling Taplow (08:46), Slough (08:51), Southall (09:01) and London Paddington (09:22).
2P32, 09:07 Maidenhead to Paddington, calling Slough (09:14), West Drayton (09:21), Hayes & Harlington (09:28), Southall (09:32), Ealing Broadway (09:38) and London Paddington (09:49).
1P98, 09:43 Slough to Paddington, non-stop to London Paddington (10:13).
2P73, 18:18 Maidenhead to Paddington, calling Slough (18:25), Langley (18:29), Iver (18:32), West Drayton (18:37), Hayes & Harlington (18:41), Ealing Broadway (18:48) and London Paddington (18:59).

Services from London Paddington:
2S80, 09:09 Paddington to Slough, non-stop to Slough (09:34).
1N40, 16:09 Paddington to Maidenhead, calling Slough (16:34) and Maidenhead (16:42).
1N42, 16:42 Paddington to Maidenhead, non-stop to Maidenhead (17:13).
2D55, 17:14 Paddington to Maidenhead, calling Ealing Broadway (17:23), Hayes & Harlington (17:29), West Drayton (17:34), Langley (17:41), Slough (17:46), Burnham (17:51), and Maidenhead (18:05).
1N44, 17:42 Paddington to Maidenhead, calling Slough (18:04), and Maidenhead (18:13).
1N52, 18:42 Paddington to Maidenhead, calling Slough (19:04), and Maidenhead (19:14).
1N62, 19:36 Paddington to Maidenhead, non-stop to Maidenhead (20:00).

Here's a list of the 387 services from this week which are in addition to the ones that started in May listed above:

Services towards Paddington:
2P06, 05:52 Maidenhead to Paddington, calling Slough (06:00), Hayes & Harlington (06:10), Ealing Broadway (06:19), and Paddington (06:31).
2P09, 06:21 Maidenhead to Paddington, calling Taplow (06:23), Burnham (06:26), Slough (06:31), Langley (06:35), West Drayton (06:40), Hayes & Harlington (06:46), Ealing Broadway (06:52), and Paddington (07:03).
2P17, 07:17 Maidenhead to Paddington, calling Burnham (07:21), Slough (07:27), Langley (07:31), West Drayton (07:36), Ealing Broadway (07:50), and Paddington (08:03).
2P21, 07:51 Maidenhead to Paddington, calling Taplow (07:55), Burnham (07:58), Slough (08:03), West Drayton (08:10), Hayes & Harlington (08:15), Ealing Broadway (08:22), and Paddington (08:37).
2P28, 08:26 Maidenhead to Paddington, calling Taplow (08:28), Burnham (08:31), Slough (08:40), Langley (08:42), Iver (08:47), West Drayton (08:51), Hayes & Harlington (08:54), Ealing Broadway (09:04), and Paddington (09:16).
2P35, 09:34 Maidenhead to Paddington, calling Taplow (09:38), Burnham (09:41), Slough (09:46), West Drayton (09:53), Hayes & Harlington (09:58), Southall (10:02), Ealing Broadway (10:09), and Paddington (10:19).
2P61, 16:02 Maidenhead to Paddington, calling Taplow (16:06), Burnham (16:09), Slough (16:14), West Drayton (16:21), Hayes & Harlington (16:26), Ealing Broadway (16:33), and Paddington (16:49).
2P65, 17:05 Maidenhead to Paddington, calling Taplow (17:07), Burnham (17:10), Slough (17:14), Langley (17:18), Iver (17:20), West Drayton (17:24), Hayes & Harlington (17:29), Ealing Broadway (17:37), and Paddington (17:46).
2P71, 18:08 Maidenhead to Paddington, calling Slough (18:15), Hayes & Harlington (18:23), Southall (18:28), Ealing Broadway (18:32), and Paddington (18:43).

Service from Paddington:
2D11, 06:42 Paddington to Maidenhead, calling Ealing Broadway (06:50), Southall (06:57), Hayes & Harlington (07:01), West Drayton (07:05), Iver (07:08), Langley (07:12), Slough (07:16), Burnham (07:20), Taplow (07:24), and Maidenhead (07:28).
2D13, 07:12 Paddington to Maidenhead, calling Ealing Broadway (07:20), Southall (07:25), Hayes & Harlington (07:29), West Drayton (07:33), Iver (07:36), Langley (07:40), Slough (07:44), Burnham (07:48), Taplow (07:52), and Maidenhead (07:56).
2D17, 08:12 Paddington to Maidenhead, calling Ealing Broadway (08:20), Southall (08:26), Hayes & Harlington (08:30), West Drayton (08:34), Slough (08:41), Burnham (08:45), Taplow (08:49), and Maidenhead (08:54).
2D22, 08:55 Paddington to Maidenhead, calling Ealing Broadway (09:03), Southall (09:08), Hayes & Harlington (09:12), West Drayton (09:16), Iver (09:19), Langley (09:24), Slough (09:27) and Maidenhead (09:35).
2D24, 09:27 Paddington to Maidenhead, calling Ealing Broadway (09:35), Hayes & Harlington (09:41), West Drayton (09:45), Iver (09:48), Langley (09:53), Slough (09:56), and Maidenhead (10:04).
2D54, 16:58 Paddington to Maidenhead, calling Ealing Broadway (17:06), Hayes & Harlington (17:15), West Drayton (17:20), Iver (17:24), Langley (17:28), Slough (17:31), Burnham (17:37), and Maidenhead (17:44).
2D61, 17:57 Paddington to Maidenhead, calling Ealing Broadway (18:06), Southall (18:10), Hayes & Harlington (18:14), West Drayton (18:20), Iver (18:22), Langley (18:27), Slough (18:31), Burnham (18:36), Taplow (18:40), and Maidenhead (18:43).
1N50, 18:10 Paddington to Maidenhead, calling Slough (18:35), Taplow (18:43), and Maidenhead (18:48).
2D71, 18:57 Paddington to Maidenhead, calling Ealing Broadway (19:04), Southall (19:11), Hayes & Harlington (19:15), West Drayton (19:20), Iver (19:23), Langley (19:27), Slough (19:32), Burnham (19:37), Taplow (19:40), and Maidenhead (19:44).
2D73, 19:12 Paddington to Maidenhead, calling Ealing Broadway (19:20), Hayes & Harlington (19:28), West Drayton (19:33), Slough (19:39), Burnham (19:44), Taplow (19:47), and Maidenhead (19:53).

I think that's all of them...  ;)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on July 04, 2017, 12:45:33 pm
The 19:12 from Paddington started in May


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 04, 2017, 12:46:54 pm
Ah, yes - I knew I'd missed one from my original list and that must've been it.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: johoare on July 04, 2017, 09:38:56 pm
The first two mornings of the 7.17 MAI to PAD being an EMU and starting at Maidenhead it's left quite late.. On Monday it left just ahead of the 7.23 departure and held it up.. This morning it left after the 7.23.. It departs from platform 5 and not sure if it's teething trouble or may be a bigger issue. Time will tell..

I am now trying to use the EMUS for both journeys each day even though the non stop  EMU services are a bit slower than the non-stop HSTs it's so worth it for the pleasant journey. Trains are generally still only about a quarter or less full.. People are gradually migrating off the other packed services from Maidenhead but it's a slow process it seems..


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on July 10, 2017, 04:07:14 pm
Looks like nearly all the 387s are short formed tonight (only 4 carriages) as many were this morning. Should be cosy. Hope this doesn't mean they're all breaking down already?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 10, 2017, 05:34:04 pm
Of the 8 pairs that should be in operation, 4 are running as single units, so half of the services will be affected.  Not sure exactly why but I suspect as it's a Monday there was a problem with getting sets from maintenance from Reading depot over the weekend as they still need to be changed over with diesel locomotives causing a few headaches operationally.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on July 10, 2017, 06:01:56 pm
Another unit or two to be transferred from Reading tomorrow (http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/V24881/2017/07/11/advanced)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: johoare on July 10, 2017, 07:20:36 pm
The air conditioning appears to be a bit hit and miss on these new trains. The other day the journey into work was a consistent 26 degrees in the carriage even though it was a lot cooler outside.. this morning it reached over 25 before the air con kicked in for about 5 minutes.. Having said that I've also had lots of cooler trains so I imagine the temperature setting is down to someone's discretion


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: eightf48544 on July 11, 2017, 11:27:40 am
Travelled to Taplow on 17:57 ex Padd last night. Reasonably full. Coach 7 of 8 air con OK. Interseting left

Perhaps should have waited for 18:10 which only stops Slough and Taplow.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on July 12, 2017, 08:57:56 pm
I really cannot understand the aircon problem with the GWR 387 on the Southern and Thameslink routes it works extremely well in fact often too well ............ chuffin freeeeeeeezin at times  ;D  The aircon only really functions at passenger comfort when the driver has the controller active, the GWR sets currently are sitting a lot of the time idle so the aircon cooling will not be on as much.

Still recon the 387's are a vast improvement over 165/6 ................. but then I am an electrification Engineer  ;D ;D 


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: johoare on July 13, 2017, 07:34:07 pm
I agree. The whole experience of travelling on these trains (including the air con) is 100 times better than what we had before.. And I did think the two warmer than expected trains I experienced could have been down to human control rather than an issue with the air con itself.. Generally it is quite cool as you say :-)

The whole commuting from Maidenhead (for those people who have found the electric trains) has been such a drastic change from the overcrowded, overheated trains we had before that it's still quite surreal and very very welcome  ;D


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on July 17, 2017, 12:11:14 am
Jo has now started her new, extortionately overpaid, job as a public relations spokesperson for Great Western Railway.



That is :P by the way.  ;D



Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on July 17, 2017, 07:05:01 am
Jo has now started her new, extortionately overpaid, job as a public relations spokesperson for Great Western Railway.



That is :P by the way.  ;D



Sincere best wishes to someone who is undoubtedly a very courageous woman..............I believe the training includes DVDs of Comical Ali!  :)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 17, 2017, 09:29:42 am
Nice to hear somebody is enjoying the new trains.  NR infrastructure might be awfully unreliable at the moment and GWR unable to deal with the fallout from that, but the new electric trains appear to be going down very well with most people and of course their sphere of operation will be increasing dramatically over the coming months.

I hope the new Hitachi IET's create a similar wow-factor, but I think they will struggle in that regard despite being very capable trains, mostly due to the fondness many people have of the HST and 180 trains they are replacing.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: eightf48544 on July 17, 2017, 12:22:16 pm

I hope the new Hitachi IET's create a similar wow-factor, but I think they will struggle in that regard despite being very capable trains, mostly due to the fondness many people have of the HST and 180 trains they are replacing.

Should also add appalling seating and internal layout as negative factors.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: johoare on July 17, 2017, 02:51:51 pm
Jo has now started her new, extortionately overpaid, job as a public relations spokesperson for Great Western Railway.



That is :P by the way.  ;D



Sincere best wishes to someone who is undoubtedly a very courageous woman..............I believe the training includes DVDs of Comical Ali!  :)

Ha Ha why thank you  ;D ;)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Tim on July 17, 2017, 03:01:08 pm

I hope the new Hitachi IET's create a similar wow-factor, but I think they will struggle in that regard despite being very capable trains, mostly due to the fondness many people have of the HST and 180 trains they are replacing.

Should also add appalling seating and internal layout as negative factors.

along with underfloor engine noise and vibration, no buffet cars, and longer than promised journey times. 


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: lordgoata on July 17, 2017, 03:24:47 pm
At least you wont have to change trains 20 times just because Transport for London have no concept of where London actually is  >:( ;D


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: johoare on July 21, 2017, 09:36:49 am
7.32 EMU - Maidenhead to Paddington this morning developed some sort of fault which meant it couldn't travel at full speed so we got relegated to the relief line and had rather a slow journey even though it's non stop to Paddington..


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on July 21, 2017, 09:47:27 pm
7.32 EMU - Maidenhead to Paddington this morning developed some sort of fault which meant it couldn't travel at full speed so we got relegated to the relief line and had rather a slow journey even though it's non stop to Paddington..

They may be a later working of the sets that formed the 06.28 Maidenhead Padd this morning, the driver had to do Ctr Alt Del   ;D on the sets Pans were dropped and raised however the set performed fine after that but is possible there was an issue.


Like all new things its following the Bath Tub Curve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve            Reliability and performance is high when new but as they get used initially, but after a short while reliability and performance drops until the maintainer and operator learns the new trains after that reliability and performance greatly improves. 


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on July 24, 2017, 01:51:59 pm
Opentraintimes now has service info extending through into January uploaded (with the usual caveat that it's over 84 days away and subject to change).

This link should give a snapshot of stopping services through Maidenhead, as can be seen the basic off-peak pattern of 4 tph stopping services has 2 tph from Didcot and 2 tph from Reading.

http://www.opentraintimes.com/location/MDNHEAD/2018-01-03/13:47?empty_passenger=on&non_passenger=on&passenger=on&show_call=on&show_stp=on&show_var=on&show_wtt=on&utf8=✓

The details show 90 mph EMU operation Didcot to Paddington, and AFAICT Didcot to Oxford locals become shuttles at that time.

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on July 24, 2017, 04:32:00 pm
Not that I expected any changes (maybe not until a full timetable recast) but still no decrease in journey times despite the quicker acceleration etc.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: stuving on July 24, 2017, 04:59:05 pm
Not that I expected any changes (maybe not until a full timetable recast) but still no decrease in journey times despite the quicker acceleration etc.

That may be related to the timings being for 90 mph EMUs, when they went to the trouble to get 110 mph ones. It suggests to me that they fear that at least the odd turbo may still be called for - and if GWR are refusing to count a single chicken, who can blame them?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 24, 2017, 05:03:56 pm
You never know, perhaps the punctuality stats will improve...


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on July 24, 2017, 05:49:57 pm
Not that I expected any changes (maybe not until a full timetable recast) but still no decrease in journey times despite the quicker acceleration etc.

That may be related to the timings being for 90 mph EMUs, when they went to the trouble to get 110 mph ones. It suggests to me that they fear that at least the odd turbo may still be called for - and if GWR are refusing to count a single chicken, who can blame them?

Nothing unusual in a transitioning timetable


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on July 24, 2017, 06:14:06 pm
Slightly O/T but as a result I notice some other changes, such as the 19:05 from Paddington to Henley and the 19:42 from Reading to Bedwyn being replaced by a new 19:06 calling at Twyford, Reading, Theale, Thatcham, Newbury (quick stop, not 23 minutes) Kintbury, Hungerford, Bedwyn.

Also a 19:12 from Paddington calling at Swindon, Parkway and Temple Meads whilst additionally calling at Reading and Didcot on Fridays.

Quote
Not that I expected any changes (maybe not until a full timetable recast) but still no decrease in journey times despite the quicker acceleration etc.

Having said that, I do note some quicker timings especially to the West of Reading, an example being the 19:18 from Paddington taking 5 minutes less between Maidenhead and Didcot.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: bobm on July 24, 2017, 06:52:38 pm
Slightly O/T but as a result I notice some other changes, such as the 19:05 from Paddington to Henley and the 19:42 from Reading to Bedwyn being replaced by a new 19:06 calling at Twyford, Reading, Theale, Thatcham, Newbury (quick stop, not 23 minutes) Kintbury, Hungerford, Bedwyn.

Also a 19:12 from Paddington calling at Swindon, Parkway and Temple Meads whilst additionally calling at Reading and Didcot on Fridays.

Quote
Not that I expected any changes (maybe not until a full timetable recast) but still no decrease in journey times despite the quicker acceleration etc.

Having said that, I do note some quicker timings especially to the West of Reading, an example being the 19:18 from Paddington taking 5 minutes less between Maidenhead and Didcot.

Noting the message about being over 84 days ahead and subject to change - I note there is a fairly intensive service on Christmas Day....  ;D (http://www.opentraintimes.com/location/SWI/2017-12-25/18:23?empty_passenger=on&non_passenger=on&passenger=on&show_call=on&show_pass=on&show_stp=on&show_var=on&show_wtt=on&utf8=%E2%9C%93)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: didcotdean on July 24, 2017, 08:48:11 pm
Not that I expected any changes (maybe not until a full timetable recast) but still no decrease in journey times despite the quicker acceleration etc.
It seems the interchange time between the newly split stoppers at Didcot seems to be around 8 minutes on average - although in some cases in the current timetable there is a similar wait even without a need to change. At peak times there are still some Reading-Oxford stoppers as well as at the extremes of the day (spotted one at least one that starts back at Paddington).

The interchange is nearly all cross platform (4<->5) although a few times it is 3<->5


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ray951 on July 24, 2017, 09:24:11 pm
Well I hope that isn't the final timetable as the Oxford - Didcot service in the late afternoon is worse than the current timetable.

Currently we have services at 1637, 1707, 1737, 1807, 1837, 1909
the new timetable seems to be 1637, 1707, 1752, 1825, 1906.




Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 24, 2017, 10:19:46 pm
It seems the interchange time between the newly split stoppers at Didcot seems to be around 8 minutes on average...

The interchange is nearly all cross platform (4<->5) although a few times it is 3<->5

I suspect that's more for operational convenience than passenger convenience as you can only depart back from Platform 3 by going onto the main lines before going back onto the reliefs.  The only other option would be a wasteful shunt from 3 to 4.

Well I hope that isn't the final timetable as the Oxford - Didcot service in the late afternoon is worse than the current timetable.

Currently we have services at 1637, 1707, 1737, 1807, 1837, 1909
the new timetable seems to be 1637, 1707, 1752, 1825, 1906.

That is indeed quite a worsening of service.  If a stop at Didcot on the fast Paddington train at 17:31 was added that would transform that timetable and arguably make it better than today.  Doubt it will happen though, and rather perverse to see the peak hours service potentially become worse than the off-peak one!


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: didcotdean on July 24, 2017, 11:24:19 pm
I suspect that's more for operational convenience than passenger convenience as you can only depart back from Platform 3 by going onto the main lines before going back onto the reliefs.
 
At least here passenger and operational convenience converge.
Quote
The only other option would be a wasteful shunt from 3 to 4.
Looking again I've spotted a couple of these. Up from 3 to Didcot West End then down to 4 half an hour later.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 25, 2017, 12:00:08 am
I suspect that's more for operational convenience than passenger convenience as you can only depart back from Platform 3 by going onto the main lines before going back onto the reliefs.
 
At least here passenger and operational convenience converge.

Sadly not the case of passengers arriving from the Swindon direction travelling on towards Oxford who will now have to trek over to Platform 5 in the majority of cases.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: didcotdean on July 25, 2017, 09:46:30 am
I suspect that's more for operational convenience than passenger convenience as you can only depart back from Platform 3 by going onto the main lines before going back onto the reliefs.
 
At least here passenger and operational convenience converge.

Sadly not the case of passengers arriving from the Swindon direction travelling on towards Oxford who will now have to trek over to Platform 5 in the majority of cases.
Although they won't be faced with having to do an extra change compared with now. And in the other direction there is little difference.

I suppose there are rather fewer facilities on 4/5 than on 2/3 ...


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on August 05, 2017, 08:22:38 pm
I see also from January the 09:01 from Oxford arrives Paddington at 09:59, I wonder if off-peak tickets will be allowed especially as it becomes an HST, otherwise could be a fairly empty service?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: johoare on August 10, 2017, 07:20:37 pm
I've been wondering why the information boards are telling us to travel in the front part of the EMUs if we have luggage/pushchairs etc..It always says front of the train regardless of whether the train is travelling into or out of London

Anyone know?

I have two theories (so far)

1. Not enough power to pull the train if all the weight is at the very back  ::)
2. To maximise the time for all passengers to exit Paddington if all the wheelie suitcases brigade are at the front  ;D


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: grahame on August 10, 2017, 07:29:21 pm
I've been wondering why the information boards are telling us to travel in the front part of the EMUs if we have luggage/pushchairs etc..It always says front of the train regardless of whether the train is travelling into or out of London

Anyone know?

I have two theories (so far)

1. Not enough power to pull the train if all the weight is at the very back  ::)
2. To maximise the time for all passengers to exit Paddington if all the wheelie suitcases brigade are at the front  ;D

3. People tend to board as soon as they get to the train.   Paddington's main platform entrance is at the east, most calling stations at the west.  By encouraging push chairs and luggage to move to the front, they're sending the to what's going to be the less crowded section, so balancing load

4. To see how long it would take for us to query it on the Coffee Shop


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: stuving on August 10, 2017, 07:50:33 pm
I've been wondering why the information boards are telling us to travel in the front part of the EMUs if we have luggage/pushchairs etc..It always says front of the train regardless of whether the train is travelling into or out of London

5. There are (or were) still some short platforms, where the back of the train is not platformed. While it's to complicated to list them, at least you can get the encumbered passengers who can't easily dash up the train in the right place.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: johoare on August 10, 2017, 07:52:26 pm
I've been wondering why the information boards are telling us to travel in the front part of the EMUs if we have luggage/pushchairs etc..It always says front of the train regardless of whether the train is travelling into or out of London

5. There are (or were) still some short platforms, where the back of the train is not platformed. While it's to complicated to list them, at least you can get the encumbered passengers who can't easily dash up the train in the right place.

Most sensible answer so far and on I hadn't thought of so itls probably the right answer


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on September 04, 2017, 07:59:41 pm
Quote
I thought it'd be useful to provide a summary of the trains due to be formed by Class 387s coming from further afield than Hayes & Harlington from 22nd May onwards:

Services towards London Paddington:
2P14, 06:56 Maidenhead to Paddington, calling Taplow (06:59), Burnham (07:02), Slough (07:07), Langley (07:11), Iver (07:14), West Drayton (07:18), Hayes & Harlington (07:23), Southall (07:27), Ealing Broadway (07:33) and London Paddington (07:46).

--------------------snip--------------------

2D73, 19:12 Paddington to Maidenhead, calling Ealing Broadway (19:20), Hayes & Harlington (19:28), West Drayton (19:33), Slough (19:39), Burnham (19:44), Taplow (19:47), and Maidenhead (19:53).

I think that's all of them...  ;)


A handful more diagrams from today, some more typing for you to do II  ;)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 05, 2017, 02:41:24 pm
Here's a full list of all of the Class 387 hauled services as of this week, together with the units allocated to them today (Paddington to Hayes services excluded).  You'll have to excuse me for not listing all the calling points as the list is getting pretty big.  There's now 9 daily diagrams in total (so 18 units required per day), although one of those solely does Paddington to Hayes services and another does the same with the addition of one evening service out to Maidenhead.

Towards London:
2P06, 05:52 MAI-PAD (Diagram 1: 387137/147)
2P09, 06:21 MAI-PAD (Diagram 2: 387150/152)
1P92, 06:28 MAI-PAD (Diagram 3: 387140/141)
2P14, 06:56 MAI-PAD (Diagram 4: 387138/153)
2P17, 07:17 MAI-PAD (Diagram 5: 387130/136)
1P93, 07:32 MAI-PAD (Diagram 6: 387154/155)
2P94, 07:42 MAI-PAD (Diagram 3: 387140/141)
2P21, 07:51 MAI-PAD (Diagram 1: 387137/147)
1P17, 08:02 MAI-PAD (Diagram 7: 387135/143)
2P28, 08:26 MAI-PAD (Diagram 2: 387150/152)
2P25, 08:29 SLO-PAD (Diagram 4: 387138/153)
1P97, 08:42 MAI-PAD (Diagram 6: 387154/155)
2P32, 09:10 MAI-PAD (Diagram 3: 387140/141)
2P35, 09:34 MAI-PAD (Diagram 7: 387135/143)
1P98, 09:43 SLO-PAD (Diagram 4: 387138/153)
2P61, 16:02 MAI-PAD (Diagram 1: 387137/147)
2P62, 16:20 MAI-PAD (Diagram 5: 387130/136)
2P65, 17:05 MAI-PAD (Diagram 7: 387135/143)
2P71, 18:07 MAI-PAD (Diagram 1: 387137/147)
2P73, 18:18 MAI-PAD (Diagram 4: 387138/153)

From London:
2D09, 06:12 PAD-MAI (Diagram 5: 387130/136)
2D11, 06:42 PAD-MAI (Diagram 1: 387137/147)
2D13, 07:12 PAD-MAI (Diagram 2: 387150/152)
2D17, 08:12 PAD-MAI (Diagram 5: 387130/136)
2D19, 08:36 PAD-MAI (Diagram 7: 387135/143)
2D22, 08:55 PAD-MAI (Diagram 1: 387137/147)
2S80, 09:09 PAD-SLO (Diagram 4: 387138/153)
2D24, 09:27 PAD-MAI (Diagram 2: 387150/152)
1N40, 16:09 PAD-MAI (Diagram 4: 387138/153)
1N42, 16:42 PAD-MAI (Diagram 3: 387140/141)
2D54, 16:58 PAD-MAI (Diagram 1: 387137/147)
1N48, 17:11 PAD-MAI (Diagram 5: 387130/136)
2D55, 17:14 PAD-MAI (Diagram 6: 387154/155)
1N44, 17:42 PAD-MAI (Diagram 4: 387138/153)
2D61, 17:57 PAD-MAI (Diagram 7: 387135/143)
1N50, 18:10 PAD-MAI (Diagram 2: 387150/152)
1N52, 18:42 PAD-MAI (Diagram 3: 387140/141)
2D71, 18:57 PAD-MAI (Diagram 1: 387137/147)
2D73, 19:12 PAD-MAI (Diagram 6: 387154/155)
1N62, 19:36 PAD-MAI (Diagram 8: 387134/151)
2D77, 19:42 PAD-MAI (Diagram 5: 387130/136)
1N64, 20:18 PAD-MAI (Diagram 4: 387138/153)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: John R on September 05, 2017, 02:52:39 pm
So 18x4 car sets diagrammed daily (I'm assuming all sets are doubled up), and to date only 2x3 car cascaded turbo units diagrammed daily in the west of England (or is it 3 units?).

What am I missing?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Timmer on September 05, 2017, 03:18:02 pm
So 18x4 car sets diagrammed daily (I'm assuming all sets are doubled up), and to date only 2x3 car cascaded turbo units diagrammed daily in the west of England (or is it 3 units?).

What am I missing?
Them substituting for HST's and 180s going off lease to Scotrail/Grand Central before 800s come on stream?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: didcotdean on September 05, 2017, 03:25:13 pm
At least some of these are replacements for Paddington-Reading(-Oxford) locals which means there have to be turbo shuttles for the time being to/from Maidenhead onwards to complete the service.

Also there seems to be plenty of shorter-than-usual formed services around the Thames Valley at the moment.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 05, 2017, 03:44:08 pm
There's the two Basingstoke diagrams that were 150s that now need covering by Turbos, plus whilst the electrics only work from Maidenhead the use of Turbos on other services becomes a little less efficient as some form shuttles that need recessing in Maidenhead sidings.  Also there's regular subbing to cover for failed HST's/180s.

Turbos that are not allocated to anything today are:  165110, 113, 129, 138, 166202, 204, 208, 212, 213, 215, 216.  Of those one (or is it two?) are away from PRI works, and another couple are in Bristol for familiarisation I think.  The rest are presumably undertaking maintenance?

Looks like just 166205 allocated to the West services today.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: John R on September 05, 2017, 03:54:57 pm
There's the two Basingstoke diagrams that were 150s that now need covering by Turbos, plus whilst the electrics only work from Maidenhead the use of Turbos on other services becomes a little less efficient as some form shuttles that need recessing in Maidenhead sidings.  Also there's regular subbing to cover for failed HST's/180s.

Turbos that are not allocated to anything today are:  165110, 113, 129, 138, 166202, 204, 208, 212, 213, 215, 216.  Of those one (or is it two?) are away from PRI works, and another couple are in Bristol for familiarisation I think.  The rest are presumably undertaking maintenance?

Looks like just 166205 allocated to the West services today.

That's very interesting.  Assuming 2 are away for PRMI work and 2 are being used for driver training around Bristol that leaves 7 sitting around twiddling their thumbs (or whatever turbos twiddle).  If that's typical, intuitively that feels a disappointingly large number when services are so stretched in the west.

Yes, I know crew need to be trained, and maybe some infrastructure needs to be modified, but it feels wrong that the cascade delay was down to the non-arrival of the emu's and now they have arrived the other building blocks are still not in place.  GWR making excuses for others' shortcomings but not managing their own part of the job effectively maybe.   


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on September 05, 2017, 06:07:39 pm
There's the two Basingstoke diagrams that were 150s that now need covering by Turbos, plus whilst the electrics only work from Maidenhead the use of Turbos on other services becomes a little less efficient as some form shuttles that need recessing in Maidenhead sidings.  Also there's regular subbing to cover for failed HST's/180s.

Turbos that are not allocated to anything today are:  165110, 113, 129, 138, 166202, 204, 208, 212, 213, 215, 216.  Of those one (or is it two?) are away from PRI works, and another couple are in Bristol for familiarisation I think.  The rest are presumably undertaking maintenance?

Looks like just 166205 allocated to the West services today.

That's very interesting.  Assuming 2 are away for PRMI work and 2 are being used for driver training around Bristol that leaves 7 sitting around twiddling their thumbs (or whatever turbos twiddle).  If that's typical, intuitively that feels a disappointingly large number when services are so stretched in the west.

Yes, I know crew need to be trained, and maybe some infrastructure needs to be modified, but it feels wrong that the cascade delay was down to the non-arrival of the emu's and now they have arrived the other building blocks are still not in place.  GWR making excuses for others' shortcomings but not managing their own part of the job effectively maybe.   

Also makes you wonder why the usual "more trains than usual needing repairs" excuse is trotted out for all the short forms when there are trains sitting around doing nothing......it'd be really interesting to see an abstract of exactly how many have been in for repair over the last 3 months or so compared to the corresponding period last year.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on September 05, 2017, 06:08:32 pm
Yes, I know crew need to be trained, and maybe some infrastructure needs to be modified, but it feels wrong that the cascade delay was down to the non-arrival of the emu's and now they have arrived
The contracted EMU numbers would have been available if the wiring had been ready on time.   The units originally allocated to GWR were able to be diverted to GTR GN routes because the GW wires were not ready, but if the wires had been ready as planned the EMUs would have been available.  The EMU delivery changes are an effect of, but not the actual cause of the delays.

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: John R on September 05, 2017, 06:14:35 pm
Yep, sorry, sloppy wording on my part. Of course the delay in the emu's being available to use has been down to the lack of energised overhead wiring.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on September 05, 2017, 09:33:15 pm
Had my first ride in a 387 today, on the 1609 ex-PAD, which runs fast (albeit on the down relief) to Slough, where I got off.

Impressed. Seat felt a bit hard at first, but soon got used to it. Great acceleration and a quiet, smooth ride at relief linespeed.

The sooner these are able to run to all the routes they are due to (eventually!) the better - the 0905 THA-PAD will certainly be a better experience than it was this morning in a rammed 166.



Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 05, 2017, 11:56:52 pm
I very much doubt anything was 'sitting around doing nothing' - try and find anything sat in sidings looking bored during the morning peak tomorrow if you like?   Major exams and depot familiarisation could mostly account for the nine or so units unaccounted for in today's allocations, and it just takes an unexpected fault or a visit from a graffiti artist to tip the balance quite quickly.  Usually around 95% availability is the best you could wish for from any fleet, so today's 47 or so from 56 or so isn't too far shy of that given the current circumstances of a fleet split between two areas.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Fourbee on September 06, 2017, 09:48:54 am
Whilst obviously operating within the constraints of stock availability, that stock should be deployed effectively; one day last month there were at least two 2-car 165s travelling on the North Downs Line heavily loaded (probably on Reading-Redhill stoppers), yet a near empty (3-car) 166 on the Reading-Basingstoke shuttle. Granted, that was in the middle of the day so maybe the peak loadings on the Basingstokes justifies it.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on September 06, 2017, 08:34:14 pm
Whilst obviously operating within the constraints of stock availability, that stock should be deployed effectively; one day last month there were at least two 2-car 165s travelling on the North Downs Line heavily loaded (probably on Reading-Redhill stoppers), yet a near empty (3-car) 166 on the Reading-Basingstoke shuttle. Granted, that was in the middle of the day so maybe the peak loadings on the Basingstokes justifies it.

To get the units in the right slot for maintenance etc the diagraming of them my seem a bit skewed, also its not always easy to reallocate a failed 3 car unit with another 3 car given that some allocations are set to a max of 2 cars like the Marlow line and Greenford.

The team that manage the TV unit allocation on a daily bases general do an excellent job give the scale of the service they run against the allocated units


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: johoare on September 15, 2017, 04:18:15 pm
Not many Class 387s today...From Journeycheck

Cancellations to services between London Paddington and Maidenhead
Due to a shortage of train crew between London Paddington and Maidenhead fewer trains are able to run.
Train services running to and from these stations may be cancelled. Disruption is expected until 19:30 15/09.
Last Updated:15/09/2017 15:09

Train Cancellations
16:02 Maidenhead to London Paddington due 16:49
16:09 London Paddington to Maidenhead due 16:42
16:42 London Paddington to Maidenhead due 17:13
16:58 London Paddington to Maidenhead due 17:44
17:05 Maidenhead to London Paddington due 17:46
17:14 London Paddington to Maidenhead due 18:05
17:18 London Paddington to Hayes & Harlington due 17:40
17:42 London Paddington to Maidenhead due 18:13
17:48 Hayes & Harlington to London Paddington due 18:10
17:57 London Paddington to Maidenhead due 18:43
18:07 Maidenhead to London Paddington due 18:43
18:10 London Paddington to Maidenhead due 18:48
18:18 Maidenhead to London Paddington due 18:59
18:42 London Paddington to Maidenhead due 19:14
18:57 London Paddington to Maidenhead due 19:44
19:12 London Paddington to Maidenhead due 19:53


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 15, 2017, 06:06:48 pm
The 17:14 from Paddington was reinstated.  As is the 18:07 Maidenhead to Paddington.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on September 15, 2017, 06:14:50 pm
Not many Class 387s today...From Journeycheck

Cancellations to services between London Paddington and Maidenhead
Due to a shortage of train crew between London Paddington and Maidenhead fewer trains are able to run.
Train services running to and from these stations may be cancelled. Disruption is expected until 19:30 15/09.
Last Updated:15/09/2017 15:09

Train Cancellations
16:02 Maidenhead to London Paddington due 16:49
16:09 London Paddington to Maidenhead due 16:42
16:42 London Paddington to Maidenhead due 17:13
16:58 London Paddington to Maidenhead due 17:44
17:05 Maidenhead to London Paddington due 17:46
17:14 London Paddington to Maidenhead due 18:05
17:18 London Paddington to Hayes & Harlington due 17:40
17:42 London Paddington to Maidenhead due 18:13
17:48 Hayes & Harlington to London Paddington due 18:10
17:57 London Paddington to Maidenhead due 18:43
18:07 Maidenhead to London Paddington due 18:43
18:10 London Paddington to Maidenhead due 18:48
18:18 Maidenhead to London Paddington due 18:59
18:42 London Paddington to Maidenhead due 19:14
18:57 London Paddington to Maidenhead due 19:44
19:12 London Paddington to Maidenhead due 19:53

Utter shambles......GWR is spiralling downwards more rapidly every day.....how on Earth can this be allowed to happen? Is there anyone with any management ability whatsoever?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: eightf48544 on September 16, 2017, 09:22:30 am
Be interesting to see what happens today,

According to Realtime Trains as far as Taplow is concerned the whole service from now on is rostered for 100mph EMUs!

I may be doing a trip to Swindon to get the Foxhall curve so might be catching the 12:35 from Taplow.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: grahame on September 16, 2017, 09:31:48 am
Be interesting to see what happens today,

According to Realtime Trains as far as Taplow is concerned the whole service from now on is rostered for 100mph EMUs!

Probably saved staff shifts yesterday evening so they can run these today?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on September 16, 2017, 09:39:34 am
Be interesting to see what happens today,

According to Realtime Trains as far as Taplow is concerned the whole service from now on is rostered for 100mph EMUs!

Probably saved staff shifts yesterday evening so they can run these today?


Sacrifice peak services on a Friday for daytime services on a Saturday? Well you chaps are probably far more in the know than me.

But if that was the case, why not advertise it in advance so that people can make plans, and/or why have GWR allowed the situation to deteriorate so much to the point where this type of robbing Peter to pay Paul is necessary?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: grahame on September 16, 2017, 10:15:18 am
Sacrifice peak services on a Friday for daytime services on a Saturday? Well you chaps are probably far more in the know than me.

That would be contrary to our TransWilts experience, where yet again services have been abandoned for half a day today.  However, if Reading depot is locked out of use today and there are only electric trains (plus Marlow and Greenford branch diesels) available in London, it would be very brave of GWR to turn off the entire main line service to the PM's constituency.  Now if Michelle Donelan was p.m. ...

Quote
But if that was the case, why not advertise it in advance so that people can make plans, and/or why have GWR allowed the situation to deteriorate so much to the point where this type of robbing Peter to pay Paul is necessary?

There's a human psyche that says "it will be magically sorted out" and a desire not to be the one to break bad news ... with the result that bad news gets broken very late in the day. General thing, not limited to GWR - I have been kept hanging around with hundreds of other people at an airport from 9 a.m. to 11 p.m. while they tried to fix a plane, then bussed to a hotel and back again at 6 a.m. (about 4 hours sleep!) when I suspect the issue was close to being a no-hope from the start until a spare part was flown transatlantic!


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: stuving on September 16, 2017, 10:43:10 am
There's a human psyche that says "it will be magically sorted out" and a desire not to be the one to break bad news ... with the result that bad news gets broken very late in the day. General thing, not limited to GWR - I have been kept hanging around with hundreds of other people at an airport from 9 a.m. to 11 p.m. while they tried to fix a plane, then bussed to a hotel and back again at 6 a.m. (about 4 hours sleep!) when I suspect the issue was close to being a no-hope from the start until a spare part was flown transatlantic!

How true. I came across the same mindset in several bosses, and it led to arguments. The usual scenario was how to report project progress to higher management or customers: do you cover the bad news in full first to leave them with the good news, or do the good news first for its headline impact. I was always for "good news last", but didn't often get may way.

That applies within one period's report (month, quarter etc.); the effect is greater if you can defer reporting the bad news until next period. Very popular, that. There must be a link with whether you are an optimist, especially a Micawberite one who expects the bad news to mysteriously disappear before next time, or a pessimist (or perhaps realist) who doesn't. Of course, come next report the bad news is just as likely to have got worse!

I suspect this also has to do with "deferring gratification" - which supposedly adults can do, though not all to the same degree. (You've probably seen the mean trick that psychologists play on little kids to study this: "here's one sweet: you can eat it now, but if you don't eat it for five minutes I'll give you another one as well".)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on September 16, 2017, 10:53:39 am
Sacrifice peak services on a Friday for daytime services on a Saturday? Well you chaps are probably far more in the know than me.

That would be contrary to our TransWilts experience, where yet again services have been abandoned for half a day today.  However, if Reading depot is locked out of use today and there are only electric trains (plus Marlow and Greenford branch diesels) available in London, it would be very brave of GWR to turn off the entire main line service to the PM's constituency.  Now if Michelle Donelan was p.m. ...

Quote
But if that was the case, why not advertise it in advance so that people can make plans, and/or why have GWR allowed the situation to deteriorate so much to the point where this type of robbing Peter to pay Paul is necessary?

There's a human psyche that says "it will be magically sorted out" and a desire not to be the one to break bad news ... with the result that bad news gets broken very late in the day. General thing, not limited to GWR - I have been kept hanging around with hundreds of other people at an airport from 9 a.m. to 11 p.m. while they tried to fix a plane, then bussed to a hotel and back again at 6 a.m. (about 4 hours sleep!) when I suspect the issue was close to being a no-hope from the start until a spare part was flown transatlantic!

So the first point is poor planning, and the second weak leadership, with no doubt everyone looking at everyone else to make a decision - the one thing in common? Total disregard for the customer. In that at least, GWR are consistent.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: rower40 on September 16, 2017, 12:50:01 pm
I very much doubt anything was 'sitting around doing nothing' - try and find anything sat in sidings looking bored during the morning peak tomorrow if you like?
A few weeks back, a 387 was doing not very much in the (unwired) Slough Goods Loop.  Other than waiting for a loco to drag it back to where there's some electricity.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 16, 2017, 12:52:17 pm
Yes, that was a wrong routing balls-up!


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: grahame on October 07, 2017, 06:26:46 am
On a more complex railway, there is more to go wrong  :(

Quote
05:47 Maidenhead to London Paddington due 06:32
05:47 Maidenhead to London Paddington due 06:32 was terminated at Hayes & Harlington.
It will no longer call at Southall, Ealing Broadway and London Paddington.
This is due to failure of the electricity supply.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on October 07, 2017, 09:03:37 am
Now, was that the wires or more generally? Many trains disrupted this morning, including HSTs not requiring juice from wires, so undure why these would be delayed on the Main Line?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on October 07, 2017, 09:11:27 am
On a more complex railway, there is more to go wrong  :(

Quote
05:47 Maidenhead to London Paddington due 06:32
05:47 Maidenhead to London Paddington due 06:32 was terminated at Hayes & Harlington.
It will no longer call at Southall, Ealing Broadway and London Paddington.
This is due to failure of the electricity supply.

Can someone stick 50p in the meter please?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: stuving on October 07, 2017, 10:23:35 am
Now, was that the wires or more generally? Many trains disrupted this morning, including HSTs not requiring juice from wires, so undure why these would be delayed on the Main Line?

It's these new-fangled electric signals, that's what. Bring back oil lamps!


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on October 08, 2017, 08:56:21 am
Now, was that the wires or more generally? Many trains disrupted this morning, including HSTs not requiring juice from wires, so undure why these would be delayed on the Main Line?

But HEX units do and they run Main Line.

Terminating an UP direction train at Hayes would not indicate a system wide OLE power failure, the Grid supply point is at Kensal Green (just east of OOC)  Its possible the Unit was faulty and need to get into West Ealing or there was and issue with the OLE that needed to be inspected before any more electric trains could pass over it


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ray951 on October 20, 2017, 09:00:15 am
They appear to be now storing these units at Didcot as there is one berthed in the DB Cargo yard, well away from any OLE.
With so few services to run I assume they must be running out of storage space at Reading.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on October 21, 2017, 08:36:10 am
They appear to be now storing these units at Didcot as there is one berthed in the DB Cargo yard, well away from any OLE.
With so few services to run I assume they must be running out of storage space at Reading.

There has been some 12 car testing at Didcot station. 


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on November 11, 2017, 10:16:55 am
From 3rd January RTT is showing stoppers from Padd (which presumably will be 8 car 387’s) terminating and starting in P14A at Reading while XC’s are in P14B.  I thought the maximum length in the A ends was 6 cars, so how will this work?  I suppose one solution would be to move the X boards towards the B ends, but wouldn’t this need changes to the train detection systems in these platforms?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on November 11, 2017, 12:28:18 pm
From 3rd January RTT is showing stoppers from Padd (which presumably will be 8 car 387’s) terminating and starting in P14A at Reading while XC’s are in P14B.  I thought the maximum length in the A ends was 6 cars, so how will this work?  I suppose one solution would be to move the X boards towards the B ends, but wouldn’t this need changes to the train detection systems in these platforms?

Perhaps they do have a plan to re-platform XC that hasn't worked its way through yet.  Even if platform sharing at the lengths in question is feasible, they'd probably have to have another solution once the stoppers become full length Crossrail at 205m.

IIRC they should be able to go back to the routine where the XC Reading terminators used P3?

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: stuving on November 11, 2017, 12:43:15 pm
From 3rd January RTT is showing stoppers from Padd (which presumably will be 8 car 387’s) terminating and starting in P14A at Reading while XC’s are in P14B.  I thought the maximum length in the A ends was 6 cars, so how will this work?  I suppose one solution would be to move the X boards towards the B ends, but wouldn’t this need changes to the train detection systems in these platforms?

I've also found examples of an XC train being made to go and lurk in Kennet Bridge Loop for ten minutes - during which its platform isn't used by anything else - and another which is shown coexisting with a Paddington stopper reversing at the A end and then with another that comes in from the depot. So I think there will be some adjusting done, with the right XC trains going to wait outside instead of the wrong ones.

Something else that stands out when you look (but I think is true now) is that no attempt has been made to use the up platforms (14 and 15) for trains reversing and leaving for Paddington, and the down platforms (12 and 13) for XC and a few Bedwyns that reverse or commence and leave the other way. For example, at 06:42, trains leave for Paddington and Bedwyn. The 387 comes ECS from Maidenhead and uses P13, while the Turbo comes ECS from Reading depot and uses P14. At the same time there is a 387 arriving from PAD that uses P12 to reverse, and while it is there a goods train uses P15. If they all run to time you can do that with everything on the "right" platforms, unless maybe P15 needs a longer clear time to allow for good workings.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on November 11, 2017, 01:36:07 pm
I've also found examples of an XC train being made to go and lurk in Kennet Bridge Loop for ten minutes - during which its platform isn't used by anything else
IIRC that particular XC service has run via Kennet Bridge loop for quite a few timetables, I suspect it is to maintain route knowledge for when the move is actually required, during periods of reduced platform availability, probably during engineering works.

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on November 11, 2017, 05:16:26 pm
Correct, that manoeuvre has been going on for some time.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: stuving on November 11, 2017, 06:51:59 pm
I don't think that any platform sharing is needed at the moment; if any is done is could be avoided by swapping platforms. If there are any unavoidable cases, they are early and late when trains are going into or out of the depot and using P12-15 in place of P1-6. So assuming there are no more trains from January, that should still be true. Tthe new peak semifasts will change the pattern, but not very much.

The timetable seems to be created by a bit of software that has been told sharing is possible for Turbos and Voyagers, and has not been told it can't do that with 387s. Anything impossible will just have to be changed. Though of course GWR could use only 4-car 387s for the stoppers...at least out of the peaks...


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 11, 2017, 06:58:33 pm
They want to avoid coupling and uncoupling of 387s as much as possible as the coupling system is prone to damage unless it’s done on straight track.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on November 20, 2017, 07:11:23 pm
Counted 15 (at least) 387's parked-up in total at Maidenhead and West Ealing on my way into London today.

Wondering how many they need to run the service expansion in January?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on November 20, 2017, 08:22:05 pm
Counted 15 (at least) 387's parked-up in total at Maidenhead and West Ealing on my way into London today.

Wondering how many they need to run the service expansion in January?

Lots of them by the time the full timetable to Newbury commences in 2019, also the number of units ordered allowed for the Oxfords which will not happen until mid / end of CP6.

In addition there will be 12 car trains in the mix as well


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on November 20, 2017, 10:02:54 pm
Quote
Lots of them by the time the full timetable to Newbury commences in 2019

Must admit I have wondered how the use of 387's on the B&H to Newbury will work?
- the bay platform at Newbury would I think be able to take a 4-car, but definitely not an 8
- pretty much all of the platforms at stations between there and Reading are too short for an 8-car, and some (eg, Midgham) probably too short for a 4-car aswell (there was talk a while ago of platform extension at Thatcham and Theale, but no evidence of anything happening yet)
- a 4-car 387 would represent an increase in a capacity from a 3-car 16x, but probably not that much (due less dense seating config of the 387)

Anyone know how this is all planned to pan out?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: stuving on November 20, 2017, 11:46:23 pm
Anyone know how this is all planned to pan out?

From a recent Enhancements Delivery Plan:
Aldermaston P2        4-car
Theale P1&2            8-car
Thatcham P1&2        8-car

So they are still there, due into service December 2018.

In addition, 4-car trains can already fit all stations, and 8-car ones Newbury. Their not using P3 is presumably OK.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on November 21, 2017, 10:16:59 am
Thanks, so I assume that will mean 8-car trains running the Reading - Newbury shuttles - which is a huge increase in capacity, as these are often 2-coach 165's today. Will mean a lot of SDO usage (and people needing to be in the right part of the train) for alighting at places like Midgham and Aldermaston.

Will be interesting to see how this is managed at Newbury if the bay platform is not to be used? Reversing 387's will need to be on a short "turn-around" in order to not block the main up and down platforms for through stopping trains (of which I think there will be more, with the proposed semi-fast IET's running to points west, in addition to the Bedwyn's).


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: stuving on November 21, 2017, 10:21:28 am
Hmm. I took it to mean all-day stoppers (presumably shuttles to Reading) would be 4-car, and could use the bay at Newbury, with some peak-hour limited-stop 8-car additions. But that's not based on knowing the route.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on November 21, 2017, 10:23:48 am
Guess we will wait and see then. Unless others know more?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 21, 2017, 10:57:50 am
I think Stuving has it pretty much spot on.  The platforms being extended will also be useful for IET formed services.  Platform extensions have recently started at the Thames Valley stations between Didcot and Reading and at Twyford.  Going to be a tight call as to whether they’re ready in time for January, but if not then 6 or 7 car SDO could used initially.  I wouldn’t expect you’ll see work starting on the B&H stations until late next year.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on November 21, 2017, 11:08:23 am
Quote
The platforms being extended will also be useful for IET formed services

Indeed. I guess the Bedwyn's will be a 5-car set (as previously discussed) due to the turnback length at Bedwyn.

What about the proposed semi-fasts to points further west? - those that do operate today are HST's and call at Thatcham and Theale. Do we know yet if these will be operated with 5 or 10 cars?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 21, 2017, 11:24:14 am
Not sure on that one.  All options are still on the table, they could use a 10-car IET with SDO set at 6 or 7 (depending on how much they extend by), or run 8-car 387s from Paddington in the peaks and remove the calls on the longer distance trains to speed them up a bit - it’s only a couple of trains a day after all, but finding paths for that will be challenging.  They could run them as 5-car IETs but that would go against promises of all peak IET trains running as 9 or 10-car and would cause capacity issues.  Finally they could risk upsetting commuters by removing the calls and making them change at Reading.

It’s one of the slightly awkward puzzles still to solve, though the big one of diesel shuttles from Newbury to Bedwyn all day has at least been put to bed with the bi-mode option being adopted.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on November 21, 2017, 01:02:20 pm
Quote
- a 4-car 387 would represent an increase in a capacity from a 3-car 16x, but probably not that much (due less dense seating config of the 387)

More standing room but less seats than a class 166 in fact

256 seats (cl166)  vs 224 seats (cl387) I think


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: bobm on November 22, 2017, 11:35:54 am
Latest RAIL Magazine is quoting GWR as looking at Swindon as a possible place to stable 387s, particularly off peak, from January.  The original plan to park them in the sidings at Oxford isn't going to be possible.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 22, 2017, 11:40:02 am
Yes, Swindon has been mentioned for many months now as a 'next best' option for stabling.  Far from ideal of course, especially given the wires to Swindon are still some way off being energised, but I'm sure it won't be GWR paying for any additional costs.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: gwr2006 on November 25, 2017, 07:58:19 pm
Latest RAIL Magazine is quoting GWR as looking at Swindon as a possible place to stable 387s, particularly off peak, from January.  The original plan to park them in the sidings at Oxford isn't going to be possible.

Did you mean Oxford or Didcot Yard as I thought it was Didcot that was being considered for stabling the 387s?

Yes, Swindon has been mentioned for many months now as a 'next best' option for stabling.  Far from ideal of course, especially given the wires to Swindon are still some way off being energised, but I'm sure it won't be GWR paying for any additional costs.

It doesn't look like Steventon will be ready any time soon and doubtful the high street bridge will even be rebuilt now before December 2018. Loco-haulage anyone?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ellendune on November 25, 2017, 08:01:20 pm
It doesn't look like Steventon will be ready any time soon and doubtful the high street bridge will even be rebuilt now before December 2018. Loco-haulage anyone?

Apparently they are looking at a temporary solution with a speed limit to achieve the deadline.

NR tweets also suggest they are lowering the track this weekend. So it looks like a combination of lowered track, minimum clearances and reduced speed to allow the gradient of the contact wire to be very steep. 


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: onthecushions on November 26, 2017, 03:06:52 pm

Would the mods consider moving or mirroring posts 643 onwards to the GW electrification section?

OTC


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on November 27, 2017, 03:29:07 pm
Posts now moved and merged with that more relevant discussion - thanks for the constructive suggestion, OTC.

CfN.  ;) :D ;D



Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on November 27, 2017, 08:37:44 pm
Judging by the Didcot - Oxford shuttles and the info provided on train data sites, the 387s should be coming out to play through Reading on January 1st fingers crossed.

If the train data is correct (to be taken with a pinch of salt) then it would appear the first class 387 passenger service west of Maidenhead could be the 02:24 from Reading to Paddington (http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C57942/2018/01/01/advanced), with the 04:07 from Didcot (http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C57948/2018/01/01/advanced) being the first service west of Reading.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on November 27, 2017, 08:52:20 pm
I certainly won't be on either of those!


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 28, 2017, 03:25:09 pm
Counted 15 (at least) 387's parked-up in total at Maidenhead and West Ealing on my way into London today.

Wondering how many they need to run the service expansion in January?

I believe there’s 41 daily 387 diagrams required from January, from the final fleet size of 45.  The vast majority of which will be 8-car, with three 12-car diagrams.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on November 28, 2017, 06:07:31 pm
Last of the Electrostars aka 387's rolls off of the production line, after 18 year production run

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Rail-News/last-ever-electrostar-finished-in-derby-as-18-years-of-production-come-to-an-end


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: didcotdean on November 28, 2017, 07:29:16 pm
If the last one made is destined for GWR, maybe it could be called 'Evening Electrostar'  ;D


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on November 30, 2017, 11:10:26 am
Reports in wnxx suggest there has been 387 test train running overnight between Reading and Didcot.   The RTT site showed a long stop at Goring in each direction, perhaps they were checking the platform interface or something similar...

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 30, 2017, 12:27:48 pm
Well I hope that isn't the final timetable as the Oxford - Didcot service in the late afternoon is worse than the current timetable.

Currently we have services at 1637, 1707, 1737, 1807, 1837, 1909
the new timetable seems to be 1637, 1707, 1752, 1825, 1906.

Looks like some tinkering has been done as new timetable now looks like being 16:37, 17:07, 17:35, 18:10, 18:25 and 19:06.  The 17:07 and 18:10 continue through serving local stops to Reading.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: janes on November 30, 2017, 12:39:47 pm
Really annoyed about the new timetable as it looks like there will be NO direct stoppers from Ealing Broadway to Tilehurst whatsoever during the entire evening peak (it was bad enough already with only the 17:33, 18:20 and 18:33 to choose from!)

There's a slight improvement in the morning with an extra direct train at 7:53 though, but this does not help me in the evening - it is massively inconvenient for me to have to worry about changing trains if I have commitments in the evening I need to get to - it adds a whole extra layer of uncertainty, particularly in times of disruption.

Why do they seem to think that everyone from the Oxford stoppers wants to go to/from either Reading or Paddington - we don't!


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: lordgoata on November 30, 2017, 12:49:05 pm
Really annoyed about the new timetable as it looks like there will be NO direct stoppers from Ealing Broadway to Tilehurst whatsoever during the entire evening peak (it was bad enough already with only the 17:33, 18:20 and 18:33 to choose from!)

Why do they seem to think that everyone from the Oxford stoppers wants to go to/from either Reading or Paddington - we don't!

Might as well get used to it now, when Crossrail takes over we will have no choice but to change at Reading if you are not going to Paddington as far as I understood  ??? >:(


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: janes on November 30, 2017, 12:59:37 pm
Yes I am really looking forward to having to sit sideways in a cattle truck with no toilet facilities that stops at even more places than the current trains do - either that or go to Paddington in a Sardine can and then have to change there to get back to Ealing (NOT!)

Just don't see why this is in any way "better" than what we have now - why can't they bring back the semi-fasts with stops at Twyford, Maidenhead, Slough, Hayes OR Southall (but not both on the same train), and Ealing Broadway? (I thought that was the original idea)? Either that or stop some of the express trains at Ealing Broadway as well as Paddington (as with the fast Southern services that stop at East Croydon &/or Clapham Junction & Victoria for example)?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on November 30, 2017, 01:26:34 pm
Then they gave TfL pathing rights on the relief lines....


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 30, 2017, 01:31:25 pm
It's unfortunate for you, janes, I totally understand that, but it's simply a question of juggling around to cater for the biggest markets as best as possible.  How many commuters go from Thames Valley stations to Ealing Broadway, and how many continue through to Paddington?  I would guess the Paddington number is at least 10 times that of the Ealing number.  

If you are a Thames Valley station to Paddington commuter you will now have a much better direct fast peak service home in the evening.  Currently fast direct trains between 4-8pm leave at 17:18, 17:38, 18:18 and 19:18.  From January that becomes 16:49, 17:18, 17:49, 18:19, 18:48, 19:18 and 19:35.  A much better service, all with 8-car 387 (except the 17:18) Turbo, and I think one or two of them might be 12-car (with rear 4 locked out at Reading).  That has the benefit of providing a direct service at a memorable frequency that people will use, rather than the choice of a very slow through service or (as most do now) a risky change at Reading if you don't happen to time it right for one of the through faster trains.  It also has the benefit of reducing the number of people cramming onto the non-stop Paddington to Reading services in order to change there.

Semi-fasts post Crossrail was the original idea, and should still happen off-peak, however it looks as if Crossrail will be taking over all of those paths in the peak.  That again has its benefits as well as drawbacks.  Stopping anything on the main line at Ealing Broadway will absolutely kill track capacity on the main lines I'm afraid.  One of the other benefits of this regular Paddington to Thames Valley stations service is that it will reduce the number of peak time stops on the main line platforms at Maidenhead and Twyford which also eat into track capacity.

A classic case of upsetting a few to benefit many.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Oxonhutch on November 30, 2017, 03:12:46 pm
Are there two types of 387's? Looking at those evening down peak semi-fasts they are pathed as 100 mph EMU with first and second class.  The up peak services in the morning are described as 90 mph EMUs with standard class only.

Or is this like the current Turbo fiction since they removed the first class from the 165s but not the 166s, but then mix them up anyway?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: janes on November 30, 2017, 03:14:22 pm
Yes so now I have to put up with the risky change at Reading in the evening! Either that or go into Paddington and back out. (Again risky) or leave the office at the ridiculously early time of 16:20 or stay at work until 19:20.

BTW it isn't just about Ealing Broadway - a large number of people also go between the local stations to Oxford & Slough, and as far as I can see they have been screwed over as well.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: lordgoata on November 30, 2017, 03:41:22 pm
TfL should bugger off back to London and leave the TV trains alone.

Edit: its not even about the risky change for me. Its the getting on and off in the cold, the wet, the delays on one train causing headaches with others, the extra time to and from work, the fact I wont have enough time on either leg, in or out, to do anything (by the time I get one, get settled, it will be time to get off again etc etc. Even when I do go into London, I still always get a stopper for the convenience of NOT changing.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: janes on November 30, 2017, 03:55:12 pm
Exactly, Lordgoata!

It is all of the above for me as well. I have got used to putting up with it in the morning, as at least any changes are on the same platform. What will make it so much worse is now having in all probability to add crossing between platforms to the inconvenience.

Jane


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Oxonhutch on November 30, 2017, 06:22:30 pm
I see that a test unit has broken-down on the Down Relief on the country end of Goring.  Is causing chaos for Pangbourne passengers.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Ollie on November 30, 2017, 07:00:13 pm
I see that a test unit has broken-down on the Down Relief on the country end of Goring.  Is causing chaos for Pangbourne passengers.

Just to clarify, it wasn't the 387 that failed


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on November 30, 2017, 07:02:00 pm
Passing Maidenhead at about 0940 this morning there was Turbo in the sidings with all the 387's, not seen that before.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Oxonhutch on November 30, 2017, 07:15:16 pm
Just to clarify, it wasn't the 387 that failed

What was it please then Ollie, as it looked like a 387 as I passed it on the Down Main in a diverted local. The Up Relief was blocked adjacent to it too.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Ollie on November 30, 2017, 07:27:36 pm
Don't have the technical detail, but it was something wrong with the loco that was dragging the 387.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on December 01, 2017, 10:19:47 am
Passing Maidenhead at about 0940 this morning there was Turbo in the sidings with all the 387's, not seen that before.

Correct, the 08:15 arrival from Bedwyn is stored in the sidings until it forms the 09:42 to Reading


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on December 01, 2017, 12:13:26 pm
Quote
Correct, the 08:15 arrival from Bedwyn is stored in the sidings until it forms the 09:42 to Reading

Ah, ok thanks for that. Must admit it has been unusual recently to be stood at Thatcham and to see Maidenhead as a final destination for a few up services.

However, this provides a routing to Paddington from there using the 387's (and the platform announcements for these trains do mention the connection opportunity)

Presumably this will change again with the January timetable change. I guess the Bedwyn semi-fast Turbos will be one of the few running all the way into Paddington following that change?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on December 08, 2017, 09:54:59 am
The new Paddington – Didcot stopping service timetable T10 from 1st January is now on the GWR website.  As far as Pangbourne is concerned, a better service with more trains, more semi-fasts to/from London, and of course better trains.  So all good (unless you travel Pangbourne - Oxford of course).


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on December 08, 2017, 10:19:07 am
Or if travelling to/from Ealing as discussed up thread


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 08, 2017, 11:07:11 am
The new Paddington – Didcot stopping service timetable T10 from 1st January is now on the GWR website.  As far as Pangbourne is concerned, a better service with more trains, more semi-fasts to/from London, and of course better trains.  So all good (unless you travel Pangbourne - Oxford of course).

A handful of peak through services to/from Oxford still run, which should keep many commuters happy and nullify a lot of local press negativity, though whether they will slowly disappear over time remains to been seen.  I can’t see platform extensions being completed on time so expect 387s to run with SDO initially.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on December 08, 2017, 03:40:25 pm
On Saturdays only there will be a new, 0400 turbo Oxford - Gatwick Airport direct. Not off topic I hope, as it's a consequence of Class 387's coming to Thames Valley.

Not calling at Pangbourne unfortunately, but then it's a long time since I did early morning flights for Gatwick.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: FremlinsMan on December 09, 2017, 12:29:03 am
Hmm. When did we last have an OXF - GTW service? Must have been around 20 years ago. I used it at least once - but it was at the more sensible time of 06:30 or so.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Ollie on December 09, 2017, 12:45:54 am
Hmm. When did we last have an OXF - GTW service? Must have been around 20 years ago. I used it at least once - but it was at the more sensible time of 06:30 or so.

Think it's less than that (about 10 years), I recall CrossCountry used to have a service which went via Kensington Olympia towards Gatwick/Brighton.

Edited to add: http://www.1s76.com/1S76%202008.htm December 2008 timetable saw the end of trains through to the South (Sussex) Coast.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: bignosemac on December 09, 2017, 02:44:01 am
The withdrawal in 2008 of those CrossCountry services via Kenny O led to the farce of the once a week bus service from Ealing Broadway to Wandsworth Road via Kenny O. Maintaining the fiction that three short sections of railway in West London were still open to passenger services.

Until the formal closure went ahead in 2013 the bus service was costing the DfT £450 a week. Passenger numbers were between 0-3 weekly.

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/withdrawal-of-scheduled-passenger-services-between-wandsworth-road-kensington-olympia-and-ealing-broadway


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: FremlinsMan on December 09, 2017, 11:11:53 am
Hmm. When did we last have an OXF - GTW service? Must have been around 20 years ago. I used it at least once - but it was at the more sensible time of 06:30 or so.

Think it's less than that (about 10 years), I recall CrossCountry used to have a service which went via Kensington Olympia towards Gatwick/Brighton.

Edited to add: http://www.1s76.com/1S76%202008.htm December 2008 timetable saw the end of trains through to the South (Sussex) Coast.
I should have explained - I was thinking of the Thames Train service a while back, which (perhaps on Saturdays only), started from Oxford, instead of from Reading, then ran the normal service to Gatwick. Might have only been during the summer timetable, to cater for holiday passengers. It was just a turbo, IIRC.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: didcotdean on December 09, 2017, 11:51:57 am
As I recall there were at one time two such services weekdays, 04:XX and 06:YY. One ran a bit later on a Saturday. Also think there was at least one in the opposite direction at the other end of the day.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: FremlinsMan on December 09, 2017, 05:39:44 pm
As I recall there were at one time two such services weekdays, 04:XX and 06:YY. One ran a bit later on a Saturday. Also think there was at least one in the opposite direction at the other end of the day.
I guess the services didn't get enough custom to justify running from Oxford to Gatwick. IIRC they were usually 'airport passenger' spec. with extra luggage racks. Oh well.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: grahame on December 09, 2017, 05:50:01 pm
IIRC they were usually 'airport passenger' spec. with extra luggage racks. Oh well.

Can we call them "international spec" please  :D  ... in the hope that a similar spec is put in to the Cardiff - Portsmouth units as they're refurbed at some point.

If you think an airline passenger can take a lot of luggage, you haven't seen what a holiday maker heading off on a cruise through Southampton can take!


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 10, 2017, 10:57:09 am
As I recall there were at one time two such services weekdays, 04:XX and 06:YY. One ran a bit later on a Saturday. Also think there was at least one in the opposite direction at the other end of the day.

Yes, on weekdays roughly an 04:40 from Banbury/05:00 from Oxford and a 06:05 from Oxford.  Returns around 21:20 and 23:20 also featured.

Saturdays saw up to three morning trains, including the 04:00, and two returns including a day train at 09:27 which only stopped Redhill, Guildford and Reading.  It reached Reading in 69 minutes and Oxford in 1h 36m.

On Sunday’s there was just the one morning train and three return evening ones.

Not sure why they faded out of the schedules in the mid 2000s, other than pressures on the Turbo fleet meaning the sets were put to better use elsewhere, though mostly they were just extensions of existing Reading to Gatwick services.  I don’t remember them being particularly widely advertised or patronised.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on December 26, 2017, 07:56:14 am
I see on Thursday all stoppers from Paddington terminate at Reading bar three in the late afternoon which continue through to Didcot. All stopping Oxford services run to/from Reading and Didcot, allowing the introduction of class 387s on many diagrams if GWR wish.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on December 26, 2017, 08:36:25 am
I see on Thursday all stoppers from Paddington terminate at Reading bar three in the late afternoon which continue through to Didcot. All stopping Oxford services run to/from Reading and Didcot, allowing the introduction of class 387s on many diagrams if GWR wish.

I sincerely hope they'll all be 387s or at least 6 car and not 2/3 car Turbos as is the way of late.......it's often forgotten that a lot of people work between Christmas & New Year, and with Waterloo not an option those trains running to/from Paddington will be under even greater demand.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 26, 2017, 09:39:32 am
Virtually all of them are booked for 387/8 including the Didcot ones.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on December 28, 2017, 09:15:22 am
First trip of the day, 03:54 had some problems this morning, whilst one diagram is currently running around with 4 coaches instead of 8, other than that things seem ok so far


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: johoare on December 28, 2017, 09:48:22 am
Yes I experienced that 4 car train this morning (8.18 MAI to PAD) .. Not ideal when there was only a half hourly stopping service running today Reading to Paddington. Train was full by West Drayton.. Not so Great Western  >:(


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on December 28, 2017, 09:50:01 am
From January it looks like the Padd - Reading stoppers have been retimed and accelerated slightly so they can do a quick turnround in Reading of 6 - 10 minutes, much better than the 30 minutes or so at present.  This means that the service only needs 1 platform instead of 2, which is good as they can't squeeze in an A end.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on December 28, 2017, 10:18:18 am
Yes I experienced that 4 car train this morning (8.18 MAI to PAD) .. Not ideal when there was only a half hourly stopping service running today Reading to Paddington. Train was full by West Drayton.. Not so Great Western  >:(

Rather than brave the replacement buses from Taplow I persuaded a reluctant Mrs TG to drop me off at Slough for the 0741 express to Paddington......it had started at Oxford and was a 3 car Turbo........I'll say no more!


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: johoare on December 28, 2017, 10:21:51 am
Yes I experienced that 4 car train this morning (8.18 MAI to PAD) .. Not ideal when there was only a half hourly stopping service running today Reading to Paddington. Train was full by West Drayton.. Not so Great Western  >:(

Rather than brave the replacement buses from Taplow I persuaded a reluctant Mrs TG to drop me off at Slough for the 0741 express to Paddington......it had started at Oxford and was a 3 car Turbo........I'll say no more!

Nice commute today then for us both.. Shame they couldn't use any of the six 8 carriage electric trains parked in Maidenhead sidings...


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on December 28, 2017, 11:59:25 am
Oops:
Quote
10:34 Reading to London Paddington due 11:32 has been cancelled.
This is due to a safety inspection on this train earlier in its journey.
Quote
11:37 London Paddington to Reading due 12:40 will be cancelled.
This is due to a safety inspection on this train earlier in its journey.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 28, 2017, 12:01:56 pm
From January it looks like the Padd - Reading stoppers have been retimed and accelerated slightly so they can do a quick turnround in Reading of 6 - 10 minutes, much better than the 30 minutes or so at present.  This means that the service only needs 1 platform instead of 2, which is good as they can't squeeze in an A end.

Though bad in terms of service recovery from delays!


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on December 28, 2017, 12:49:15 pm
And now 2 turbos come out to play
Quote
Facilities on the 13:04 Reading to London Paddington due 14:00.
This is due to more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time.
Will be formed of 6 coaches instead of 8.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 28, 2017, 02:39:49 pm
You could argue that it’s better to get teething troubles out of the way before the hoards return next Tuesday.  Though I have a feeling it will be a few weeks at least before the new service beds in!


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: stuving on December 28, 2017, 04:51:31 pm
And here - at last! - is a 387 in service at Reading (2P64 at 16:04). This one's in P12, where it stopped on arrival at the B end (and its light haven't been swapped over yet). I was going to wait to see it to depart from P7, but something got in the way. RTT says it did leave on time, but lost 6 minutes at Maidenhead.

Anyway, welcome to the forum Reading, 387134.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 28, 2017, 05:02:02 pm
They'll all go through to the 'B' end, unless only formed of 4 cars.  A small part of the train will poke it's nose out beyond the steps of the 'A' end though, so hopefully confusion will be limited, though expect that end to get busy whilst the other end is quiet as the train departs back to Paddington.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on December 28, 2017, 06:08:56 pm
Decided to pop out this afternoon, caught the 15:04 from Reading to Twyford.
(https://preview.ibb.co/dKZFcG/IMG_20171228_144923.jpg)
I know they are not new to the region, but noticeably smooth with good acceleration from Reading. An 800 can be seen behind, a sight to regularly be seen at Reading from now on.

Held on at Twyford for the 16:03 through to Tilehurst, which was a few minutes late due to the delay of the outbound class 800 seen above.
(https://preview.ibb.co/j7aVcG/IMG_20171228_162311.jpg)

The 16:03 (15:07 off Paddington) was the first class 387 passenger service to run west of Reading, shown at Tilehurst with the 16:28 to Didcot
(https://preview.ibb.co/dgsyWb/IMG_20171228_162919.jpg)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on December 29, 2017, 09:30:00 am
387161 & 387132 for the record


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: janes on December 30, 2017, 10:22:09 am
Tried these the last couple of days - much better journey quality in terms of less overcrowding, but obviously the real test will be next week.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on December 30, 2017, 02:17:56 pm
Tried these the last couple of days - much better journey quality in terms of less overcrowding, but obviously the real test will be next week.


The amount of seating available was excellent ..................... while they only operated as far west as Maidenhead .................. shame to share them with the rest of the Thames Valley.

Suppose you just cannot stop progress  ;D


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on December 30, 2017, 03:39:22 pm
Indeed not, and very welcome they’ll be at Pangbourne next week.  After their brief foray out here on Thursday (presumably some sort of testing or trial running) we’re back to Turbo’s this weekend, but next week….

As you say ET, you can’t stop progress. You’ll be enjoying Class 345’s soon!




Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on December 30, 2017, 04:03:16 pm
This page on GWR’s website claims that Class 387’s have “... an at-seat food and drink service on-board.”

https://www.gwr.com/about-us/modernising-gwr/january2018 (https://www.gwr.com/about-us/modernising-gwr/january2018)

That sounds good, but then I realised that it was a rather careless copy and paste from the description of the IET’s higher up the page.   Not sure about “Space for larger items can be found between seats in some areas and luggage stores at the end of certain carriages.” either.

Looking down the page it claims that Turbo’s have “two toilets – including one wheelchair accessible - in every four carriages”.

Does anyone at GWR check what goes on their website?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on December 30, 2017, 05:54:27 pm
Tried these the last couple of days - much better journey quality in terms of less overcrowding, but obviously the real test will be next week.


They'll be rammed to the gunwhales.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: insider on December 30, 2017, 07:09:04 pm
Expect lots of Turbo vice 387 coverage due to lack of drivers with Traction knowledge.

Both Monday & Tuesday there are a high number of uncovered jobs.

There are still also issues with Coupling & Uncoupling in service at stations, as no agreement has been reached with ASLEF & GWR. Some platform staff have been trained to "assist" drivers with the Fly Doors between units, however expect "issues" UFN.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on December 30, 2017, 07:54:54 pm
Quote
After their brief foray out here on Thursday (presumably some sort of testing or trial running) we’re back to Turbo’s this weekend

Yes, just the 3 return trips on Thursday and Friday, with turbos this weekend. All diagrams scheduled to be 387s on Monday, depending of course on the number of drivers passed out*


*Whether that be passed out for driving 387s or passed out from having one too many the night before remains to be seen!


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: stuving on December 30, 2017, 08:33:32 pm
This page on GWR’s website claims that Class 387’s have “... an at-seat food and drink service on-board.”

https://www.gwr.com/about-us/modernising-gwr/january2018 (https://www.gwr.com/about-us/modernising-gwr/january2018)

That sounds good, but then I realised that it was a rather careless copy and paste from the description of the IET’s higher up the page.   Not sure about “Space for larger items can be found between seats in some areas and luggage stores at the end of certain carriages.” either.

Looking down the page it claims that Turbo’s have “two toilets – including one wheelchair accessible - in every four carriages”.

Does anyone at GWR check what goes on their website?


The leaflet I found at Reading station says so, and also has most of the rest of that text with minor differences in phrasing. Not the bit about food, though.

It's the IET text that departs more from its leaflet, though a lot of the paragraphs have been copied verbatim. I suspect that in picking out the text to copy to that web page (not the bits that refer to pictures, basically), something got copied twice and in the wrong place. And is there a leaflet about the "new" Turbos (even if it is only in English)?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: 1st fan on December 30, 2017, 09:57:20 pm
This page on GWR’s website claims that Class 387’s have “... an at-seat food and drink service on-board.”

https://www.gwr.com/about-us/modernising-gwr/january2018 (https://www.gwr.com/about-us/modernising-gwr/january2018)

That sounds good, but then I realised that it was a rather careless copy and paste from the description of the IET’s higher up the page.   Not sure about “Space for larger items can be found between seats in some areas and luggage stores at the end of certain carriages.” either.

Looking down the page it claims that Turbo’s have “two toilets – including one wheelchair accessible - in every four carriages”.

Does anyone at GWR check what goes on their website?


The leaflet I found at Reading station says so, and also has most of the rest of that text with minor differences in phrasing. Not the bit about food, though.

It's the IET text that departs more from its leaflet, though a lot of the paragraphs have been copied verbatim. I suspect that in picking out the text to copy to that web page (not the bits that refer to pictures, basically), something got copied twice and in the wrong place. And is there a leaflet about the "new" Turbos (even if it is only in English)?
They're not unique in a dodgy cut and paste. My local council made people sign up to a register (and pay a fee to do so) if they're private landlords. The only problem was they posted conflicting information about who needed to register. The info on all the the categories said only people in one category had to register. It was obvious that this was duplicated from the first category. I pointed this out to them and the bloke I spoke to was annoyed. He was seriously annoyed at the person who had just been lazy and not bothered to proof read.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on January 01, 2018, 07:52:06 am
Not a great start to the New Year!

 Train Formation Update
07:04 Didcot Parkway to London Paddington due 08:08
07:04 Didcot Parkway to London Paddington due 08:08 will be started from Reading.
It will no longer call at Didcot Parkway.
This is due to a fault on this train.
Will be formed of 4 coaches instead of 12.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: BBM on January 01, 2018, 04:38:47 pm
0937 PAD-DID at TWY this morning and the 1037 from PAD at DID:


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on January 02, 2018, 08:15:13 am
So I was looking forward to the brave new world this morning, all that extra capacity etc etc......rather disappointed to find loads of short formations....4 coaches rather than 8 (or 12) and trains into Paddington packed to the gunwales as per usual, full and standing......apparently more of these brand new trains than usual are in need of repair......


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: NickB on January 02, 2018, 08:57:07 am
Indeed. I even took the brave step of switching my annual ticket from 1st Class Eastbound to Standard in the promise of all of this extra capacity. 

Same-old-same-old from Maidenhead today. A creaking turbo, crammed HST and a short formed electric service to choose from.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: a-driver on January 02, 2018, 10:16:35 am
Not been helped by the fatality yesterday evening at Iver. Resulted in several sets being late back to the depot last night which in turn meant they weren’t ready this morning. They are also down on HSTs following a couple of incidents.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 02, 2018, 10:29:02 am
I wondered whether the fatality would have had an effect on the overnight plans as there were delays of up to 90 minutes on the last services of the evening which can badly affect the train plan for the next morning.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on January 02, 2018, 10:43:27 am
Was it actually fatal? Words tweeted last night "person treated at the scene and lines now reopening" seem a strange way to refer to a fatality?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: a-driver on January 02, 2018, 11:01:01 am
Defintely fatal. I don’t know wether saying “the person is being treated at the scene” is a softer way of explaining the incident or if it is thought it could deter people from attempting suicide on the railway if an attempt is seen as not always successful


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on January 02, 2018, 01:52:11 pm
Just need to see what happens on P13 between 1754 and 1820 this evening (maybe 2R53 and 2P71 are only 4 car), but it looks like the inherently less than optimally safe practice of platform sharing (ie trains sharing a platform without the protection of controlled signals) at Reading may have come to an end.  Hurray!


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: janes on January 02, 2018, 02:25:48 pm
Got up early to enjoy the new direct 7:55 from Tilehurst to Ealing Broadway - only to get to the station and find it had been cancelled!  >:(

Had to get the 8.04 turbo to Reading and then the (presumably short-formed) 4-car 08:33 to EB. Surprised to find that it wasn't actually overcrowded (in my coach anyway) or delayed due to extended dwell times from shoehorning people on - but not a good first day - a lot of trains seemed to be cancelled, late and/or short-formed - so much for the great new timetable!

Happy New Year......


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 02, 2018, 02:28:41 pm
Lots of cancellations this evening as well, particularly later in the evening.  Shortage of drivers (which Insider warned us about) the main reason cited.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: a-driver on January 02, 2018, 03:24:39 pm
Just need to see what happens on P13 between 1754 and 1820 this evening (maybe 2R53 and 2P71 are only 4 car), but it looks like the inherently less than optimally safe practice of platform sharing (ie trains sharing a platform without the protection of controlled signals) at Reading may have come to an end.  Hurray!

But they do share platforms at Reading under the protection of controlled signals, like it does at a lot of other locations.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 02, 2018, 07:00:15 pm
I was watching the performance at home of 1D93, 17:49 PAD-DID with interest today as it was the first of the two down 12-car 387 services (the second, at 18:19 was cancelled!).  Firstly a small positive in that it did indeed run as a 12-car as planned between Paddington and Reading.  Three minutes instead of the booked one minute was spent at Maidenhead - I suspect that was waiting for passengers to alight given how busy it is and how the rear set won't be platformed at Maidenhead. 

It then arrived Twyford at 18:19, three minutes late, but it looks as if the 18:20 connection to Henley left on time (well, it left early at 18:19 according to the automatic reports).  If true it is shocking that the connection was allowed to leave as the train pulled into the platform. 

Then it went on to arrive at Reading two minutes late where the rear four coaches are detached.  That operation is due to take four minutes according to the schedules, which would be pushing it for a Turbo, let alone a 387 where gangway connections have to be closed as well as four carriages checked empty and any passengers moved to the two sets staying in service.  So, predictably it actually took nine minutes to do that and departed seven minutes late.  It went on to Didcot arriving 5 minutes late.

Just wondered if anyone travelled on it to confirm the details above and report back on how busy it was etc.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: BBM on January 02, 2018, 07:37:07 pm
It then arrived Twyford at 18:19, three minutes late, but it looks as if the 18:20 connection to Henley left on time (well, it left early at 18:19 according to the automatic reports).  If true it is shocking that the connection was allowed to leave as the train pulled into the platform. 

I haven't travelled today but I've been watching RTT and Twitter, and it seems that tonight the connections into the Henley Branch trains at 1720, 1820, 1850 and 1920 were all missed by minutes. Now the 1918 PAD-DID is cancelled so there'll be no connection for the 1950. Presumably now that the branch service is half-hourly the rule is that trains will no longer be held at TWY?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 02, 2018, 07:44:12 pm
A wonderful way to pacify your passengers that have now had their through trains removed from the timetable!  Understanding that timings are tight on the branch with the 30-minute interval service, I feel a hold of up to four minutes is appropriate and the best compromise.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Timmer on January 02, 2018, 08:31:00 pm
BBC South Today’s report on the start of electric services between Didcot and London:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b09k7h7q/south-today-evening-news-02012018

Report starts at 3.50 and is only available for 24 hours.

AND...BONUS (just for you TG) Mr Hopwood makes a guest appearance at 5.55  ;D


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: NickB on January 02, 2018, 10:56:58 pm
I was watching the performance at home of 1D93, 17:49 PAD-DID with interest today as it was the first of the two down 12-car 387 services (the second, at 18:19 was cancelled!).  Firstly a small positive in that it did indeed run as a 12-car as planned between Paddington and Reading.  Three minutes instead of the booked one minute was spent at Maidenhead - I suspect that was waiting for passengers to alight given how busy it is and how the rear set won't be platformed at Maidenhead. 

It then arrived Twyford at 18:19, three minutes late, but it looks as if the 18:20 connection to Henley left on time (well, it left early at 18:19 according to the automatic reports).  If true it is shocking that the connection was allowed to leave as the train pulled into the platform. 

Then it went on to arrive at Reading two minutes late where the rear four coaches are detached.  That operation is due to take four minutes according to the schedules, which would be pushing it for a Turbo, let alone a 387 where gangway connections have to be closed as well as four carriages checked empty and any passengers moved to the two sets staying in service.  So, predictably it actually took nine minutes to do that and departed seven minutes late.  It went on to Didcot arriving 5 minutes late.

Just wondered if anyone travelled on it to confirm the details above and report back on how busy it was etc.

I had the pleasure of the 17.49 this evening. I confess that I hadn’t taken in the fact that this was no longer a Worcester HST and so was intrigued to see how it performed.

Boarding didn’t start until gone 17.40 so it was quite a scrum. I deliberately listened for platform and on train announcements about which carriages would be platformed at Maidenhead - there were none. The only announcements concerned the split at Reading.
It must have come as quite a surprise to passengers in 8-12 to be informed by the driver as we passed through Taplow!!  That might explain the long dwell time at Maidenhead.

The train itself was full. Busier than the Worcester HST by a considerable margin. I am basing that upon a) number of passengers standing in Coach 5 where I was, and b) that Coaches 1-4 were already full and so I had to double back. Given that the morning peak was so quiet today I was quite shocked by how busy it was, and will be intrigued as to what happens when passenger numbers peak later this month.

Comfort-wise I’m afraid the ironing boards just don’t compete against a comfy HST seat. I think I’m correct in saying that only the 19.48 is now an HST to Maidenhead?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: didcotdean on January 02, 2018, 11:22:52 pm
Maybe they are relying on people having read the 'Electrostar Customer Guide' leaflet for which carriage to travel in ...

Front Six: West Ealing and Iver
Front Eight: Ealing Broadway, Maidenhead, Twyford, Didcot
All: Paddington and Reading
Front Seven: the rest



Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on January 03, 2018, 06:02:25 am
Also numerous large posters at many stations showing the above alighting information


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: a-driver on January 03, 2018, 06:50:42 am
Personally I think GWR have been left to deal with a shambles. Electrification is behind schedule and parts of it have been deferred. You’ve got 12-car trains calling at stations where all vehicles can’t be accommodated. That’s always going to cause delays even with proper full announcements. All platforms should be able to accommodate the full length of the train on busy commuter routes.
I’m not saying GWR are totally blameless but NR and the DfT have failed passengers in the Thames Valley in a big way.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: NickB on January 03, 2018, 07:09:47 am
Also numerous large posters at many stations showing the above alighting information

If you tell me that they exist then I believe you. I’ll take a look out for them today, but as of last night I hadn’t seen/read/processed them.

If GWR are going to rely on such posters then late-boarding is ill-advised as passengers, particularly those unfamiliar with the train and route, will board speedily in to carriages 10-12.  Equally, if you are going to do station and on-train announcements about the train dividing at Reading then why haven’t you announced that the rear 4 carriages are inaccessible for the preceding station?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: grahame on January 03, 2018, 07:11:57 am
All platforms should be able to accommodate the full length of the train on busy commuter routes.

Not an issue unique to GWR ... witness minor underground stations like Baker Street.

Quote
I’m not saying GWR are totally blameless but NR and the DfT have failed passengers in the Thames Valley in a big way.

Fair summary.  A question I often wonder about asking those who favour the replacement of private companies operating trains by nationalised bodies / the government is how accountability from those nationalised bodies to the passengers would work.  We may at times grumble about how hard it is to deal with GWR, but in comparison to Network Rail ...


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 03, 2018, 08:09:23 am
Also numerous large posters at many stations showing the above alighting information

If you tell me that they exist then I believe you. I’ll take a look out for them today, but as of last night I hadn’t seen/read/processed them.

If GWR are going to rely on such posters then late-boarding is ill-advised as passengers, particularly those unfamiliar with the train and route, will board speedily in to carriages 10-12.  Equally, if you are going to do station and on-train announcements about the train dividing at Reading then why haven’t you announced that the rear 4 carriages are inaccessible for the preceding station?

There are posters, though as Nick says that should only be part of the solution and will be missed/mis-understood by many.  Having to move forward one coach isn’t so bad and can be usually dealt with when approaching the station, but four or five coaches is a much different scenario that should be widely advertised (including on Paddington CIS screens and boarding announcements), and then announced on the train both before it departs and shortly after it has departed, as well as before it arrives.

Regulars will soon get used to it, but by no means every passenger is a regular.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on January 03, 2018, 10:29:03 am
12 car trains made up of 3 x 4 car corridor EMUs has been routine on the three "southern" TOCs for ages.  Stopping at mostly 12 car platforms but eventually getting to shorter platforms at some stations further down the line is also commonplace.   It really isn't a major problem. 

Splitting a long train en route with the rear portion going out of service, which AIUI may happen at Reading, is also common.

What I'd like to know is the eventually expected 12 car services and their exact normal calling patterns, before a molehill becomes a mountain...

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: bobm on January 03, 2018, 10:38:26 am
In some cases there might be a margin to cross the 387 over to platform 4 at Twyford East and back over at Twyford West - that would create a cross platform transfer for the Henley Branch and reduce or eliminate any hold being needed. 

If an up stopper from Reading was slightly delayed it could probably make up a few minutes before Paddington.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: grahame on January 03, 2018, 11:02:18 am
It then arrived Twyford at 18:19, three minutes late, but it looks as if the 18:20 connection to Henley left on time (well, it left early at 18:19 according to the automatic reports).  If true it is shocking that the connection was allowed to leave as the train pulled into the platform.

[advocate mode=devil]Not sure why "shocking". Maybe this is unusual practise in the Thames Valley, but I can find you recent examples in my area of two trains in motion alongside a platform - one drawing to a halt as the other pulls out in what's supposed to be a connection, and even of trains crossing over in front one another in a station throat - with the arriving train not releasing his doors until the connection's doors (on the same island) are locked![/advocate]


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ray951 on January 03, 2018, 11:25:48 am
Apparently there were 11 Class 387 units out of service yesterday, which is about 25% of the fleet.
I don't know what the issues were, but I find that odd given that these trains having been running for several years (although not on GWR) and that the GWR examples were the last off the 'production' line.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: stuving on January 03, 2018, 11:27:34 am
Also numerous large posters at many stations showing the above alighting information

If you tell me that they exist then I believe you. I’ll take a look out for them today, but as of last night I hadn’t seen/read/processed them.

If GWR are going to rely on such posters then late-boarding is ill-advised as passengers, particularly those unfamiliar with the train and route, will board speedily in to carriages 10-12.  Equally, if you are going to do station and on-train announcements about the train dividing at Reading then why haven’t you announced that the rear 4 carriages are inaccessible for the preceding station?

There are posters, though as Nick says that should only be part of the solution and will be missed/mis-understood by many.  Having to move forward one coach isn’t so bad and can be usually dealt with when approaching the station, but four or five coaches is a much different scenario that should be widely advertised (including on Paddington CIS screens and boarding announcements), and then announced on the train both before it departs and shortly after it has departed, as well as before it arrives.

Regulars will soon get used to it, but by no means every passenger is a regular.

We now have some 10-car (2x458) trains running on Reading-Waterloo, though still more 8-car ones. From the start they had warnings about short platforms in the recorded "next stop" messages, though of course the limited choice of stopping patterns makes that easier to provide. To start with the guards included the same warnings, using almost the same words, for every stop. In fact it gets rather tedious to have so much repetition - and that may even make it easier to forget about it (though I'd be unlikely to use an affected station anyway).


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: didcotdean on January 03, 2018, 11:31:07 am
I would guess the main problem is at Paddington with the likely to remain relatively rare 12 carriage services. A low tech solution would be stick notices on the doors of the first 4 with 'Reading Only'. This will make the Reading commuters feel as if they have a dedicated service :)

This doesn't help entirely those at stations served only by sixes and sevens, but would cut down the number of carriages they would walk through.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: didcotdean on January 03, 2018, 11:32:10 am
Apparently there were 11 Class 387 units out of service yesterday, which is about 25% of the fleet.
I don't know what the issues were, but I find that odd given that these trains having been running for several years (although not on GWR) and that the GWR examples were the last off the 'production' line.

Top of the bath tub curve?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 03, 2018, 01:54:25 pm
12 car trains made up of 3 x 4 car corridor EMUs has been routine on the three "southern" TOCs for ages.  Stopping at mostly 12 car platforms but eventually getting to shorter platforms at some stations further down the line is also commonplace.   It really isn't a major problem. 

We now have some 10-car (2x458) trains running on Reading-Waterloo, though still more 8-car ones. From the start they had warnings about short platforms in the recorded "next stop" messages, though of course the limited choice of stopping patterns makes that easier to provide. To start with the guards included the same warnings, using almost the same words, for every stop. In fact it gets rather tedious to have so much repetition - and that may even make it easier to forget about it (though I'd be unlikely to use an affected station anyway).

Are there any examples where it is as many as 5 carriages at the rear which remain locked?  And if there are would any of them have hundreds of passengers alighting such as at Maidenhead and Twyford?  I think the fact it's a 'new' way of working at stations like Maidenhead means it should be given more attention than it was yesterday, and sticking a few posters up is not enough.  I agree with 'a-driver' that any platform extensions at both locations should have been completed on time.

In some cases there might be a margin to cross the 387 over to platform 4 at Twyford East and back over at Twyford West - that would create a cross platform transfer for the Henley Branch and reduce or eliminate any hold being needed. 

The crossover at Tywford East is only 25mph and has 'approach controlled' signalling, so by the time a train is signalled in via that route it would actually be slower in terms of transferring passengers than getting them to go over the (well located) footbridge as normal.

Apparently there were 11 Class 387 units out of service yesterday, which is about 25% of the fleet.
I don't know what the issues were, but I find that odd given that these trains having been running for several years (although not on GWR) and that the GWR examples were the last off the 'production' line.

Despite all being used, many have had very light use over the last few months, some sitting for weeks on end in Didcot Yard, as there simply weren't the diagrams for them - I believe some required software updates for example.  Combined with the fatality at Iver late Monday evening, it's perhaps not surprising fleet availability was poor, though that should have been predicted as yesterday was a disaster.  Seems to be much better today though?  What experiences have JaneS, TG and Nick had today?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on January 03, 2018, 02:28:33 pm
Before SWT had their Desiro fleet modified to provide 'carriage level' ASDO there were numerous locations where the doors were only opened on half of a 10 car 444. 

At Shawford there were even calls by 10 car 444s using a local door only, because even 5 cars were too long.  I'm not suggesting that Shawford is a typical example though.   


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 03, 2018, 02:33:18 pm
Maidenhead is around 25x busier than Shawford though...  ;)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: NickB on January 03, 2018, 02:49:30 pm
Maidenhead is around 25x busier than Shawford though...  ;)

Indeed.  On many Maidenhead peak services you wouldn't be able to move through the carriages if you are at the wrong end.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: lordgoata on January 03, 2018, 02:58:16 pm
What experiences have JaneS, TG and Nick had today?

You forgot me!  :'(

In all seriousness, the train I got this morning (which isn't the one I used to get, because thats now terminating at Reading  >:( ) did have its full 8 carriages, rather than 4 as per yesterday. On the other hand, despite starting from Didcot, it was still 18 minutes late to Goring!

Apart from that, it was smooth sailing.

Tonight will be the test, as yesterday was terrible (ended up on a lovely old Turbo half empty 6-car turbo though!).


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 03, 2018, 03:05:50 pm
Many humble aplogies to 'lordgoata' and any others.  I'd like to hear all your stories throughout the next couple of weeks so we can see how (hopefully) initial problems are sorted out, and whether the service is an improvement on what went before, both in what's specified in the timetable and what actually happens on a daily basis.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: litecactus on January 03, 2018, 03:29:13 pm
Seemed to be plenty of 8 coach formations out today, and for once my train was on time!
Although there are still a few 4 car diagrams out today as well.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Sixty3Closure on January 03, 2018, 03:46:35 pm
The 06.53 from Twyford was a short formed Turbo.

Did notice an empty, additional stopping service in place of the Henley train normally waiting to go back up the line. That was an 8 coach electric but didn't seem worth the extra travel time to try one out.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: NickB on January 03, 2018, 04:06:44 pm
The 06.53 from Twyford was a short formed Turbo.

I was on that service this morning.  It was cosy.
If any service could benefit from expansion it is this one.  At Maidenhead there is a 20min gap in fast services prior to this which puts it in peak demand, and the continued car-park capacity problems at Maidenhead mean that anyone driving to the station needs to arrive prior to this service in order to get a space. Drivers therefore cannot take advantage of any increased capacity later in the timetable (which is where the electrics have been placed)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Sixty3Closure on January 03, 2018, 06:02:03 pm
Is it staying a Turbo then (which would be an interesting decision) or was it just caught out by the current problems?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: NickB on January 03, 2018, 06:04:51 pm
What experiences have JaneS, TG and Nick had today?

I’m back on the 17.49 to Didcot tonight - again a 12 carriage mega-train.
Communications are vastly improved tonight with a message about Maidenhead and Twyford short platforms from the driver upon boarding with followup by automated message too. The onboard scrolling message boards say something similar. Top marks.

Due to Bakerloo Line rubbishness I fell victim to my own hypothetical scenario of having to frantically board carriage 12 at 17.48 and then make my way forwards.
I can report that the rear 4 carriages are utterly deserted. Maybe 5 passengers per carriage. The front 8 are full and standing - the reduction in seats relative to the HST very apparent.

May I enquire as to why this train is run as a 12 car format when it is apparent that Maidenhead to Reading are the stops needed for 98% of passengers rather than where the rear 4 coaches end up?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: NickB on January 03, 2018, 06:08:13 pm
Is it staying a Turbo then (which would be an interesting decision) or was it just caught out by the current problems?

It is timetabled as a train with First Class provision which I have taken to indicate it being a Turbo for the long-term


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Ollie on January 03, 2018, 06:10:23 pm
Is it staying a Turbo then (which would be an interesting decision) or was it just caught out by the current problems?

The 0653 from Twyford comes from Oxford, so certainly likely to be a Turbo for at least the length of the current timetable.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on January 03, 2018, 06:13:29 pm
12 car trains made up of 3 x 4 car corridor EMUs has been routine on the three "southern" TOCs for ages.  Stopping at mostly 12 car platforms but eventually getting to shorter platforms at some stations further down the line is also commonplace.   It really isn't a major problem. 

We now have some 10-car (2x458) trains running on Reading-Waterloo, though still more 8-car ones. From the start they had warnings about short platforms in the recorded "next stop" messages, though of course the limited choice of stopping patterns makes that easier to provide. To start with the guards included the same warnings, using almost the same words, for every stop. In fact it gets rather tedious to have so much repetition - and that may even make it easier to forget about it (though I'd be unlikely to use an affected station anyway).

Are there any examples where it is as many as 5 carriages at the rear which remain locked?  And if there are would any of them have hundreds of passengers alighting such as at Maidenhead and Twyford?  I think the fact it's a 'new' way of working at stations like Maidenhead means it should be given more attention than it was yesterday, and sticking a few posters up is not enough.  I agree with 'a-driver' that any platform extensions at both locations should have been completed on time.

In some cases there might be a margin to cross the 387 over to platform 4 at Twyford East and back over at Twyford West - that would create a cross platform transfer for the Henley Branch and reduce or eliminate any hold being needed. 

The crossover at Tywford East is only 25mph and has 'approach controlled' signalling, so by the time a train is signalled in via that route it would actually be slower in terms of transferring passengers than getting them to go over the (well located) footbridge as normal.

Apparently there were 11 Class 387 units out of service yesterday, which is about 25% of the fleet.
I don't know what the issues were, but I find that odd given that these trains having been running for several years (although not on GWR) and that the GWR examples were the last off the 'production' line.

Despite all being used, many have had very light use over the last few months, some sitting for weeks on end in Didcot Yard, as there simply weren't the diagrams for them - I believe some required software updates for example.  Combined with the fatality at Iver late Monday evening, it's perhaps not surprising fleet availability was poor, though that should have been predicted as yesterday was a disaster.  Seems to be much better today though?  What experiences have JaneS, TG and Nick had today?

0701 from Taplow this morning, plenty of space but rammed by Paddington, few minutes late......on 1859 heading home, short formed (4 coach 387) full & standing on departure, people left shouting on platform at Ealing Broadway.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on January 03, 2018, 06:36:14 pm
Quote
I can report that the rear 4 carriages are utterly deserted. Maybe 5 passengers per carriage. The front 8 are full and standing -
So passengers would rather stand in coaches 1-8 for 20-30 minutes, instead of having a seat in coach 9 or 10 and walking through a minute before their destination?  ::)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: stuving on January 03, 2018, 06:39:20 pm
Quote
I can report that the rear 4 carriages are utterly deserted. Maybe 5 passengers per carriage. The front 8 are full and standing -
So passengers would rather stand in coaches 1-8 for 20-30 minutes, instead of having a seat in coach 9 or 10 and walking through a minute before their destination?  ::)

Early days yet. People will adapt to the trains once they trust they know what happens - so I'd not recommend too much adapting until GWR get their act (and trains and staffing) together a bit more.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on January 03, 2018, 06:42:10 pm
17:49 appears to be stuck at Reading....


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: NickB on January 03, 2018, 06:44:41 pm
Quote
I can report that the rear 4 carriages are utterly deserted. Maybe 5 passengers per carriage. The front 8 are full and standing -
So passengers would rather stand in coaches 1-8 for 20-30 minutes, instead of having a seat in coach 9 or 10 and walking through a minute before their destination?  ::)

Apparently so.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on January 03, 2018, 06:49:27 pm
17:49 appears to be stuck at Reading....
Just departed 20 late


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on January 03, 2018, 07:55:24 pm
What experiences have JaneS, TG and Nick had today?

I’m back on the 17.49 to Didcot tonight - again a 12 carriage mega-train.
Communications are vastly improved tonight with a message about Maidenhead and Twyford short platforms from the driver upon boarding with followup by automated message too. The onboard scrolling message boards say something similar. Top marks.

Due to Bakerloo Line rubbishness I fell victim to my own hypothetical scenario of having to frantically board carriage 12 at 17.48 and then make my way forwards.
I can report that the rear 4 carriages are utterly deserted. Maybe 5 passengers per carriage. The front 8 are full and standing - the reduction in seats relative to the HST very apparent.

May I enquire as to why this train is run as a 12 car format when it is apparent that Maidenhead to Reading are the stops needed for 98% of passengers rather than where the rear 4 coaches end up?

The moral of this is ................ when ever a TOC lengthens a train they always put the additional carriages at the wrong end; the 17:48 is a prime example of this they should have put them at the front  ;D

To be serious though  ::) the main issue with Maidenhead station is the single entry / exit stair case off of the platforms, idealy Maidenhead needs another exit / entry subway / footbridge at the London end of the platforms; this would even out the loading.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: didcotdean on January 03, 2018, 07:55:52 pm
Quote
I can report that the rear 4 carriages are utterly deserted. Maybe 5 passengers per carriage. The front 8 are full and standing -
So passengers would rather stand in coaches 1-8 for 20-30 minutes, instead of having a seat in coach 9 or 10 and walking through a minute before their destination?  ::)
Apparently so.
Maybe they don't realise that they can walk through the units, after years of not being able to with 2 turbos coupled together.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 03, 2018, 09:04:07 pm
Certainly you'd have thought coaches 9 and 10 would be not too much of an inconvenience for the reward of a seat.  As others have said I expect it will sink in to the regulars soon enough.  Glad to hear the announcements were much better tonight though, and funnily enough dwell times at Maidenhead and Twyford were much better. 


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: johoare on January 03, 2018, 09:05:00 pm
Apologies for the delay in posting this but I was also on the 17.49 pad to Mai yesterday evening. There were portable posters on platform 11 where the train departed from to tell us which carriages were platformed at which stations. I am pretty sure before we left the driver announced the back 4 coaches were for reading only but I was in the front 4 carriages so maybe the PA system wasn't working further back down the train...

Having said all that it was too busy for me especially as it was still relatively quiet time of year passenger wise.. So will get worse...so I avoided it this evening

As an aside.. Two days travelling and gwr have already taken 48 minutes of my time in delays.. Not a promising start


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on January 03, 2018, 09:33:56 pm
Mark Hopwood has written to those using Twyford & Henley Branch with full apology & a solution already put into operation tonight to alleviate the missed connections on Tuesday evening. I'll post it tomorrow when in front of a PC and my emails

[edit]Posted by Adenlante_CCT - thanks![/edit]


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: grahame on January 03, 2018, 09:42:29 pm
Reminds me of getting people into the right carriage at Weymouth during the 7 week trial / demonstration we did in the summer of 2011 ... ended up standing at the platform end ...

Quote
"The train on the right is for Bristol Temple Meads and Cheltenham Spa. Join any part of the train for Dorchester West, Maiden Newton, Yeovil Pen Mill, Castel Cary, Bruton, Frome and Westbury, where the train will divide. Join the front three carriages for Trowbridge, Bradford-on-Avon, Freshford, Bath Spa, Oldfield Park, Keynsham, and Bristol Temple Meads.  For Chippenham, Swindon, Kemble, Stroud, Gloucester and Cheltenham Spa joins the rear 3 carriages.  Passengers for Chetnole, Yetminster, Thornford and Avoncliff should join the front carriage and ask the conductor to arrange for the train to stop. Passengers for Melksham should join the fourth carriage. Passengers for Stonehouse should join the rear two carriages"

No actually we weren't doing that - we were asking each group where they were going and directing them.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on January 03, 2018, 10:04:11 pm
Quote
Dear Henley Branch Customer

I am sorry that there have been delays and cancellations on your new train services.

This is due in part to a fatality at Iver late on 1 January which impacted on our early morning service start up and meant we were three drivers down, and this morning Network Rail imposed speed restrictions due to the high winds from Storm Eleanor.

Not all the issues are outside our control. There has also been some teething issues with new crew diagrams which we are resolving, and too many connections were missed on the evening peak last night.

It is very clear that we need to allow a greater connection time between the mainline service and the branch shuttle.
I have therefore immediately instituted a five-minute hold on the branch service during the evening peak, which will take affect from today, Wednesday 3 January. Staff have been fully briefed on the new arrangements, and there will be managers and ambassadors at Twyford this evening to make sure connections are held.

I have also asked our timetable team to review the timetable with a view to retiming the branch train to leave six minutes after the mainline service arrives.  This will give customers the additional time they need to make the connection. We need to check the implications for other connections, but we are working on it now, and I will make sure you are updated.

We have invested in the service to improve your journeys. Electrification of the mainline from Didcot to Paddington, and the introduction of brand new Electrostar trains is a major step forward in comfort and capacity for our customers.  I am confident that the new trains and revised timetable will do that.

We also need to be quick to make changes where we can see things are not working.  We did not get it right at Twyford yesterday evening.  We will do in future.

Best wishes

Mark


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: lordgoata on January 03, 2018, 10:09:26 pm
17:49 appears to be stuck at Reading....
Just departed 20 late

Yep I was on that, was stuck trying to uncouple the 4 carriages so it could carry on as an 8 car  ::)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Birdie100 on January 03, 2018, 10:21:44 pm
What a lovely letter from Mr Hopwood. Any chance of one for the broken down train on the Marlow branch line on Tuesday too? I can't figure it out but couldn't help but feel had the 18.43 to Bourne End from Maidenhead been on time it would have been very tight given the 18.19 from Paddington only arrived at 18.39 officially. I'm sure in one of the old timetables the branch line was a much 'safer' connection at 18.45 or even 18.50?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on January 04, 2018, 05:41:27 am
What a lovely letter from Mr Hopwood. Any chance of one for the broken down train on the Marlow branch line on Tuesday too? I can't figure it out but couldn't help but feel had the 18.43 to Bourne End from Maidenhead been on time it would have been very tight given the 18.19 from Paddington only arrived at 18.39 officially. I'm sure in one of the old timetables the branch line was a much 'safer' connection at 18.45 or even 18.50?

It's a gesture I guess but I don't know too many MDs who would put their name to such a badly constructed communication - then again he probably didn't read it.

What would be refreshing would be an honest and open briefing on exactly what is going wrong and why across the LTV piece at the moment, the train crew shortages, the appalling customer service, "more trains than usual requiring repairs" etc etc with honest explanations, not the usual disingenous/ambiguous crap, realistic timelines for resolution and details of lessons learned/systems being put in place to avoid customers being treated to this situation again.

.............a pig just flew by my window.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: NickB on January 04, 2018, 07:13:54 am
On top of today’s delays due to power supply problems the aforementioned 07.01 turbo from Maidenhead cape with 3 of 6 cars locked out of service. What a joke.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: martyjon on January 04, 2018, 07:18:12 am
Sorry for this late posting but I've been late home the past two nights and after a bite to eat have crashed into bed knackered.

Did any member listen to the Radio 4 Today programme on Tuesday 2nd which devoted a lot of minutes to the fare increases.

At one point in the broadcast the presenter was highlighting the bonuses paid to the directors of the private rail companies and mentioned GWR albeit, I think, as First Great Western and his bonus of a multiple of millions.

When I heard this I thought that if members of this forum heard that they'd be incensed but I haven't had time to 'listen again' to the iplayer version of the broadcast to confirm this.

Any member able to confirm this or able to listen to the broadcast via iplayer themselves.

I just might have time myself this coming weekend to 'listen again'.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Timmer on January 04, 2018, 08:18:34 am
I think they were referring to stories ran in the press on Monday about the heads of Firstgroup, Stagecoach etc and the salaries/bonuses/shares they receive on the eve of the fare increases.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: lordgoata on January 04, 2018, 09:10:24 am
06:51 from Goring was shown as On Time and then suddenly vanished off the CIS with no announcements or cancellation notices. The 07:03 then turned up 9 minutes late following an announcement about electricity supply issues.

Was full and standing when we left Twyford, and it looked like it was leaving passengers behind at Maidenhead as I was leaving the platform, as it was rammed solid.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: johoare on January 04, 2018, 10:01:34 am
Lots of cancellations at Maidenhead this morning for Paddington bound trains.. The 7.18 (This service was cancelled throughout due to the planned train being replaced with a slower train (MS)), 7.27 (his service was cancelled throughout due to a problem at the depot (MU)), 7.44 (This service was cancelled between Maidenhead and Slough due to late arrival of an inbound service (YI)), 7.46 (This service was cancelled throughout due to a problem at the depot (MU), 8.11 (This service was cancelled throughout due to the planned train being replaced with a slower train (MS))...

I have to say I don't understand the "This service was cancelled throughout due to the planned train being replaced with a slower train (MS)".. Any one here have any idea?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on January 04, 2018, 10:09:07 am
I think they were referring to stories ran in the press on Monday about the heads of Firstgroup, Stagecoach etc and the salaries/bonuses/shares they receive on the eve of the fare increases.

Very easy way to address that......link their bonuses etc to customer satisfaction scores....you'd notice a vast improvement in services surprisingly quickly.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: lordgoata on January 04, 2018, 11:14:51 am
I have to say I don't understand the "This service was cancelled throughout due to the planned train being replaced with a slower train (MS)".. Any one here have any idea?

As a complete guess, I think slower==later?, ie. they could have sent out the planned train eventually, but it would have clashed with another service that was running at the same time, so it was instead cancelled.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: stuving on January 04, 2018, 11:19:58 am
I have to say I don't understand the "This service was cancelled throughout due to the planned train being replaced with a slower train (MS)".. Any one here have any idea?

As a complete guess, I think slower==later?, ie. they could have sent out the planned train eventually, but it would have clashed with another service that was running at the same time, so it was instead cancelled.


I imagine it's most sensible use would be for cutting out stops. The same code also covers short formations, which may also lead to removing stops due to platform delays and lack of space.

In this case it looks more like a side effect of inventing a plan for coping with this depot issue and then realising it wasn't (coping, that is).


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: johoare on January 04, 2018, 11:21:54 am
I have to say I don't understand the "This service was cancelled throughout due to the planned train being replaced with a slower train (MS)".. Any one here have any idea?

As a complete guess, I think slower==later?, ie. they could have sent out the planned train eventually, but it would have clashed with another service that was running at the same time, so it was instead cancelled.


I imagine it's most sensible use would be for cutting out stops. The same code also covers short formations, which may also lead to removing stops due to platform delays and lack of space.

In this case it looks more like a side effect of inventing a plan for coping with this depot issue and then realising it wasn't (coping, that is).

With the added benefit/disadvantage of very crowded trains for those that did run  >:(


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on January 04, 2018, 11:52:24 am
At one point in the broadcast the presenter was highlighting the bonuses paid to the directors of the private rail companies and mentioned GWR albeit, I think, as First Great Western and his bonus of a multiple of millions.

I suspect you heard about FirstGroup bonuses.....Tim O'Toole & his fellow Directors.
Remember they run more buses than trains (incl in the USA) and more profit from them than their rail operation. So possibly earned. Ditto Stagecoach.

Quote
I just might have time myself this coming weekend to 'listen again'.

Daily programmes like 'Today' are only available for 24 hours, until replaced by the following days edition?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: stuving on January 04, 2018, 12:17:33 pm
At one point in the broadcast the presenter was highlighting the bonuses paid to the directors of the private rail companies and mentioned GWR albeit, I think, as First Great Western and his bonus of a multiple of millions.

I suspect you heard about FirstGroup bonuses.....Tim O'Toole & his fellow Directors.
Remember they run more buses than trains (incl in the USA) and more profit from them than their rail operation. So possibly earned. Ditto Stagecoach.

Quote
I just might have time myself this coming weekend to 'listen again'.

Daily programmes like 'Today' are only available for 24 hours, until replaced by the following days edition?

As it happens, Tim O'Toole didn't take any bonus in 2017 - though that was due to the Croydon tram accident.

First group is mainly an American bus company, but GWR does make up most of its rail operations and about 18% of first Group. At group level its operating profit was £338M on revenues of £5653M, and after tax and the rest the bottom line figure was £116M - about 2%. If I was a shareholder, I would say he might just be worth his £0.85M basic pay, but no bonuses would be due.

I can't see anything from "First Greater Western plc" since the 2013-14 accounts on the ORR website (though with no link to that I can find). The group accounts have a lot about "corporate governance", but all at group level. I can't see anything about how the group controls its operating companies, and how they are governed - and I think that should be there (or at least somewhere). But I expect GWR/FGW profits were no better than the group's.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 04, 2018, 12:53:45 pm
With the arrival of SWR on their books, GWR will now be a much smaller percentage of the rail side of the business, and FirstGroup overall.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: stuving on January 04, 2018, 01:11:16 pm
With the arrival of SWR on their books, GWR will now be a much smaller percentage of the rail side of the business, and FirstGroup overall.

SWR will roughly double the size of their rail business, but that alone donsn't have so much effect on the group figures - so it would only reduce GWR to about 16% of the total.

Incidentally, while the 2016/17 accounts are easy enough to find, they come with a health warning for passengers (or at least commuters). The self-contragulatory tone of much of he text is likely to induce nausea, if not more extreme reactions. (And the "First" colours used don't help, of course)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Timmer on January 04, 2018, 01:47:25 pm
With the arrival of SWR on their books, GWR will now be a much smaller percentage of the rail side of the business, and FirstGroup overall.
I wonder if in time they come to regret winning the SW franchise. Not been a good start so far has it?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 04, 2018, 01:51:09 pm
According to SHRUG it's been a wonderful start (compared with the Stagecoach era of course...  ;)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: didcotdean on January 04, 2018, 05:00:24 pm
Well I came back from Reading to Didcot this afternoon on an 8-carriage 387 which arrived 1 minute early and after Goring had the carriage to myself. Must do the lottery this weekend whilst my luck is in.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 04, 2018, 05:24:54 pm
Looks like the 18:19 PAD-DID, the other evening train from London booked to be a 12-car is actually going to be formed as such tonight.  Reports of that and the 17:49 from anybody that are on them are would be good to hear.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Birdie100 on January 04, 2018, 06:16:44 pm
One of the 'Ribena' gang (not sure the correct term for Paddington station staff) was stood on 17.49 to direct passengers to front 8 today. Stuck standing in carriage 7 of 12amd train arrived 5mins late into maidenhead


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on January 04, 2018, 06:18:28 pm
Looks like the 18:19 PAD-DID, the other evening train from London booked to be a 12-car is actually going to be formed as such tonight.  Reports of that and the 17:49 from anybody that are on them are would be good to hear.

1749 was 12 cars......1759 was 8 despite being advertised as shortformed to 4 which was a great relief to all.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ChrisB on January 04, 2018, 09:06:47 pm
The Ribena bods are "Ambassadors"


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on January 05, 2018, 07:58:14 pm
Quote
Just need to see what happens on P13 between 1754 and 1820 this evening (maybe 2R53 and 2P71 are only 4 car), but it looks like the inherently less than optimally safe practice of platform sharing (ie trains sharing a platform without the protection of controlled signals) at Reading may have come to an end.  Hurray!

Well it would appear both the arrivals from Oxford and Paddington use P13, so I'm guessing 2R53 is only a 4 car?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ITGuy on January 05, 2018, 08:42:53 pm
As a longtime Maidenhead-Paddington commuter who's been lurking here for a few months I thought I'd join in on this week's fun.

The 0733 actually arrived at MAI on time this morning (1st time this week). It was packed as expected - looked like a dozen free seats per car. I got onto car 7 and stood for the trip. We arrived ~7 mins late. The previous version of this service was about 50% full (people stood when it was a 4 car 387). Prior to that it was a 6 car turbo (Henley train) that was always packed by the time it arrived at MAI. So after £millions spent we're back to where we started. Air con probably trumps comfy seats/1st class in the summer.

Evenings I get the 1819. This was only 8 cars this evening but as others have commented the rear 4 are largely a waste of time if they're not going to be platformed at MAI or TWY. I don't know how many people would use this train to go from PAD to Reading but I wouldn't have thought many. Either they need to extend the platforms or move the signal so that cars 3-10 are platformed instead of 1-8. That would allow the rear set to be useful and so spread people out. Never going to happen I know. Space wise it's the same crush as the 1818 this replaces.

What does look to be an improvement :o is that the abysmal 1842 PAD-MAI (ne Bourne End) has finally been killed off and replaced with a proper fast service. It's almost like having the long lamented 1833/1836 re-instated. Not sure about the 18:48 replacing the 1906.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Timmer on January 05, 2018, 09:03:30 pm
A very warm welcome to the forum ITGuy and many thanks for your report on how things went for you this week.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on January 06, 2018, 08:16:37 am
Evenings I get the 1819. This was only 8 cars this evening but as others have commented the rear 4 are largely a waste of time if they're not going to be platformed at MAI or TWY. I don't know how many people would use this train to go from PAD to Reading but I wouldn't have thought many. Either they need to extend the platforms or move the signal so that cars 3-10 are platformed instead of 1-8. That would allow the rear set to be useful and so spread people out. Never going to happen I know. Space wise it's the same crush as the 1818 this replaces.

What does look to be an improvement :o is that the abysmal 1842 PAD-MAI (ne Bourne End) has finally been killed off and replaced with a proper fast service. It's almost like having the long lamented 1833/1836 re-instated. Not sure about the 18:48 replacing the 1906.


Maidenhead is planned to have extensions for 12 car trains, Twyford I do not believe is getting platform 4 extended due to the road bridge and connection to the branch, not sure about plat 3 if that is in the plan


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: stuving on January 06, 2018, 11:10:53 am
Maidenhead is planned to have extensions for 12 car trains, Twyford I do not believe is getting platform 4 extended due to the road bridge and connection to the branch, not sure about plat 3 if that is in the plan

Twyford P3 is already 244 m long. Oddly, P2 is only 187 m long. P4 I think could be stretched just a little from its current 180 m, but the benefit/cost curve doesn't really support it (let alone 240 m).

PS: I see that P4 in the TPR is 250 m long, presumably only available for a train coming off the branch. That's not mentioned in the Sectional Appendix, and does seem a bit - theoretical. More than that, isn't that curving platform edge not only useless but dangerous? Even if the carriages at that end don't open their doors, a passenger might want to lean across and try to open them. I'm surprised that part of the platform edge hasn't been taken up and fenced off; as I say it's not as if it's even going to be needed - or is there a plan for extending Henley to take a 12-car? (And of what stock?)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 06, 2018, 12:20:56 pm
With the signal on platform 3 at Twyford moved to the end of the platform, and a small extension which is ongoing it should be good for 12 cars within a few months (it virtually is now).  The same for platforms 1 and 2 where work is ongoing.  Platform 4 would cost an awful lot to extend as has been said - the only way to do it would be to replace the bridge at the London end, so it will probably stay as it is.  Like Stuving, I am surprised it is not fenced off.

So, with platform three already able to hold a 12 car (or, 11 at least) the only reason it is still SDO 8 is the length of other platforms, as the full ASDO system which automatically recognises what platform a train is at hasn’t been installed so the system limits it to 8 because of the length at other platforms.  Presumably that system will be deployed on 387s eventually otherwise the unextended platform 4 will continue to restrict them to SDO 8 regardless of platform.

Maidenhead has yet to see any extension works, ditto Slough (except for platform 4), So it will be a while yet before anything will change there.

If I was a commuter on the 17:49 or 18:19 for Maidenhead and Twyford I’d be getting a seat in carriage 9 or 10 and walking through.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: didcotdean on January 06, 2018, 01:23:44 pm
P3 at Didcot will also be able to take a 12-car 387 when the extension to it is completed, although this work was originally aimed at 2*5 IETs.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on January 06, 2018, 03:28:10 pm
With the signal on platform 3 at Twyford moved to the end of the platform, and a small extension which is ongoing it should be good for 12 cars within a few months (it virtually is now).  The same for platforms 1 and 2 where work is ongoing.  Platform 4 would cost an awful lot to extend as has been said - the only way to do it would be to replace the bridge at the London end, so it will probably stay as it is.  Like Stuving, I am surprised it is not fenced off.

So, with platform three already able to hold a 12 car (or, 11 at least) the only reason it is still SDO 8 is the length of other platforms, as the full ASDO system which automatically recognises what platform a train is at hasn’t been installed so the system limits it to 8 because of the length at other platforms.  Presumably that system will be deployed on 387s eventually otherwise the unextended platform 4 will continue to restrict them to SDO 8 regardless of platform.

Maidenhead has yet to see any extension works, ditto Slough (except for platform 4), So it will be a while yet before anything will change there.

If I was a commuter on the 17:49 or 18:19 for Maidenhead and Twyford I’d be getting a seat in carriage 9 or 10 and walking through.

My sources tell me that the platform extension work Maidenhead and west there off is being done by GWEP and not Crossrail.

I assume the reason nothing is done about the curved part of platform 4 at Twyford is the max length of passenger train cleared for the Henley branch, which I assume is a 5 car 165/6


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: stuving on January 06, 2018, 03:56:28 pm
My sources tell me that the platform extension work Maidenhead and west there off is being done by GWEP and not Crossrail.

I assume the reason nothing is done about the curved part of platform 4 at Twyford is the max length of passenger train cleared for the Henley branch, which I assume is a 5 car 165/6

But that's precisely why I though that curve was not needed. If a 5-car 165 won't (quite) fit in P5 (110m), it will in P4 without stopping round the bend. If it's going on- or off-shift to Reading, it needs to be clear of the points anyway. It's almost impossible to platform a train using the curve unless it has 12 carriages and is going to/from Henley.

As for who is responsible for the work - or more accurately who is responsible for not doing it - it's unclear and may not matter. Weren't NR doing the "on-network" work for Crossrail anyway? The NR delivery plan isn't much help since it's so out of date (June 2016 for the "Thames Valley Electric Multiple Unit Capability Works"). However, it does say (and this dated June 2017) "The Crossrail project will deliver a new integrated railway route through central London from Reading and Heathrow in the west to Shenfield and Abbey Wood in the east". Which isn't what I understood, but as I say does it matter if neither has done it?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: BBM on January 07, 2018, 02:44:44 pm
I went to TWY late this morning for a quick lunchtime trip to RDG intending to get the 1202 departure (2N31 1115 PAD-DID). I was rather surprised to see it come to a halt with the front of the train just ahead of the DR to UR crossover to the east of the station. At the same time 2P45 1155 RDG-PAD was approaching from the west but it came to a stand just before the points to the Henley branch.

There were no announcements at the station but checking GWR Twitter it appeared that the delay was due to a 'safety inspection on a train'. Eventually 2P45 moved forward and departed P4 some 20 minutes late at slow speed past 2N31. A few minutes later that train moved forward into P3 with a lowered pantograph on the front unit. After another delay the train finally left TWY some 30 minutes late and terminated at RDG with the pantograph still down on the front unit.

Anyone know what happened?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: a-driver on January 08, 2018, 05:23:42 pm
I went to TWY late this morning for a quick lunchtime trip to RDG intending to get the 1202 departure (2N31 1115 PAD-DID). I was rather surprised to see it come to a halt with the front of the train just ahead of the DR to UR crossover to the east of the station. At the same time 2P45 1155 RDG-PAD was approaching from the west but it came to a stand just before the points to the Henley branch.

There were no announcements at the station but checking GWR Twitter it appeared that the delay was due to a 'safety inspection on a train'. Eventually 2P45 moved forward and departed P4 some 20 minutes late at slow speed past 2N31. A few minutes later that train moved forward into P3 with a lowered pantograph on the front unit. After another delay the train finally left TWY some 30 minutes late and terminated at RDG with the pantograph still down on the front unit.

Anyone know what happened?


ADD activiation on 2N31. Driver had to inspect the pantograph on 2N31 for damage and I believe the driver of the following train carried out an OHL inspection followed by an inspection by overhead line engineers.  No damage was found.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: didcotdean on January 10, 2018, 10:39:16 am
From journey check a 387 has been turbo-stuted today: 'more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time' ...


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: a-driver on January 10, 2018, 11:07:59 am
From journey check a 387 has been turbo-stuted today: 'more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time' ...

41 387’s are required with a fleet size of 42.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Timmer on January 10, 2018, 11:19:20 am
41 387’s are required with a fleet size of 42.
That's way too tight. Are there still more to come from Derby?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 10, 2018, 11:33:50 am
One more unit, 387174, to be accepted I believe.  Plus four more should become available from May when the Hayes trains become Heathrow trains operated by 345s.  That’s assuming 345s are available in enough numbers by then as they have had more than their fair share of issues.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: a-driver on January 10, 2018, 11:47:10 am
Class 345 fleet is really struggling. Even a petition up and running asking for them to be withdrawn until they are fit for service!
https://www.change.org/p/bombardier-force-bombardier-to-re-call-the-brand-new-class-345-trains-until-they-are-fit-for-service


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on January 10, 2018, 01:09:36 pm
Lets all hope they get fixed before Crossrail starts in our part of the world then!


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: a-driver on January 10, 2018, 01:43:55 pm
Lets all hope they get fixed before Crossrail starts in our part of the world then!

Yep. You don’t want a Cl 345 blocking the relief and a failed IET on the main.  ;D

That sort of availability on the 387’s is pretty much what the whole fleet is like.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: lordgoata on January 10, 2018, 04:26:12 pm
Class 345 fleet is really struggling. Even a petition up and running asking for them to be withdrawn until they are fit for service!
https://www.change.org/p/bombardier-force-bombardier-to-re-call-the-brand-new-class-345-trains-until-they-are-fit-for-service

"the air conditioning is never on", ah bliss, will be just like being back on the turbos then ...

Oh I can't wait for Crossrail to reach Reading, it will so much improve my journey to work ::)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on January 10, 2018, 05:05:53 pm
One more unit, 387174, to be accepted I believe.  Plus four more should become available from May when the Hayes trains become Heathrow trains operated by 345s.  That’s assuming 345s are available in enough numbers by then as they have had more than their fair share of issues.

Don't forget the Newbury services are still to be added.   

I forecast more 4 car services than the hype lead folk to believe in the short term until full the Crossrail introduction 


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: NickB on January 10, 2018, 06:17:16 pm
First time on the 12 carriage 18.19 to Didcot tonight.
Why does it feel like there is less capacity than on the always overcrowded 6 car 18.18?

Unable to board the front 4 cars due to overcrowding. Next 4 are standing through the aisles 9mins before departure.



Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ITGuy on January 10, 2018, 08:48:17 pm
First time on the 12 carriage 18.19 to Didcot tonight.
Why does it feel like there is less capacity than on the always overcrowded 6 car 18.18?

Unable to board the front 4 cars due to overcrowding. Next 4 are standing through the aisles 9mins before departure.


It was only 8 cars tonight


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 10, 2018, 09:37:47 pm
One more unit, 387174, to be accepted I believe.  Plus four more should become available from May when the Hayes trains become Heathrow trains operated by 345s.  That’s assuming 345s are available in enough numbers by then as they have had more than their fair share of issues.

Don't forget the Newbury services are still to be added.   

I forecast more 4 car services than the hype lead folk to believe in the short term until full the Crossrail introduction 

Yes, although Newbury won’t be until the end of the year at the earliest, by which time it’s quite possible that IET’s will operate some  of the semi-fasts.  It’ll be a very fluid situation until Crossrail starts at the end of 2019.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: NickB on January 10, 2018, 10:22:54 pm
First time on the 12 carriage 18.19 to Didcot tonight.
Why does it feel like there is less capacity than on the always overcrowded 6 car 18.18?

Unable to board the front 4 cars due to overcrowding. Next 4 are standing through the aisles 9mins before departure.


It was only 8 cars tonight

Really? We were still being told about it being split at Reading.
It felt like I did a lot of walking up and down the platform looking for a carriage I could join too.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Sixty3Closure on January 11, 2018, 10:43:10 am
First time on the 12 carriage 18.19 to Didcot tonight.
Why does it feel like there is less capacity than on the always overcrowded 6 car 18.18?

Unable to board the front 4 cars due to overcrowding. Next 4 are standing through the aisles 9mins before departure.



I wonder if some of that is due to timetable changes that don't quite seem to match requirements? Loss of Henley trains, changes to services to Maidenhead/Twyford and some fast services still being Turbos and so quite often shrinking/being cancelled means I'm now more likely to get that train than I was in the past.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: SandTEngineer on January 11, 2018, 10:59:00 am
One more unit, 387174, to be accepted I believe.  Plus four more should become available from May when the Hayes trains become Heathrow trains operated by 345s.  That’s assuming 345s are available in enough numbers by then as they have had more than their fair share of issues.

....and if the new Crossrail Old Oak Common depot is open (its already 9 months late)  ::) :P


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on January 11, 2018, 11:10:27 am
Quote
by which time it’s quite possible that IET’s will operate some  of the semi-fasts.

I don't think that can happen until the turnback siding at Bedwyn is extended, and don't know what the timeline is for that?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: grahame on January 11, 2018, 11:35:39 am
Quote
by which time it’s quite possible that IET’s will operate some  of the semi-fasts.

I don't think that can happen until the turnback siding at Bedwyn is extended, and don't know what the timeline is for that?

Or until the semi-fasts are extend to Westbury  ...


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 11, 2018, 12:58:30 pm
Quote
by which time it’s quite possible that IET’s will operate some  of the semi-fasts.

I don't think that can happen until the turnback siding at Bedwyn is extended, and don't know what the timeline is for that?

I meant some of the semi-fasts currently operated by 387s rather than B&H services, though I would expect many of those serving Bedwyn in the peaks to be IETs coming through from further afield like they do now.  A few Turbos will also probably remain until at least mid-2019.

The current off-peak Reading to Newbury service utilises two Turbo units very inefficiency (30 minute turnarounds at both ends).  I wonder whether the improved performance of the EMUs will make operating it with one unit possible?  I suspect not quite as you’d probably need to save 5 minutes on the journey times to make it robust enough, but that would be highly desirable operationally if it could be done.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: johoare on January 11, 2018, 07:03:21 pm
7.33 Mai to pad was very full when it left maidenhead this morning.  I decided to opt out. I see no evidence of extra capacity currently


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: NickB on January 11, 2018, 10:28:46 pm
7.33 Mai to pad was very full when it left maidenhead this morning.  I decided to opt out. I see no evidence of extra capacity currently

This is my problem. I don’t want to sound like a perpetual moaner but frankly the New Year changes have been utterly underwhelming.
In the morning the 7.01 Maidenhead to Paddington remains a 6 (often 5, sometimes 3) car turbo. Rammed. Followed by a 7.08 HST. Rammed. The changes for Henley make the Twyford connection trains utterly overcrowded as Jo reports above
In the evening the 17.49 HST is now an electric but appears to be full and standing WAY before the 17.49 ever did. Same for the 18.18 which theoretically has doubled in length and yet still requires passengers to ask others to move down and squeeze in at the doors. The 19.05 has gone leaving the improvement in running time of the 18.42 (now 18.49?) as the only improvement.
This is not good. When does the IET programme roll out in full so that I can see the benefits?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Sixty3Closure on January 12, 2018, 08:22:55 am
I have to echo what NickB says.

In fact from my point of view its probably worse with fewer trains when I travel in the evening and it sounds like its not worth waiting for the 17.49 or 18.18.

The fast trains from Twyford when I travel  in the morning are still Turbos which means they're unreliable and often short formed. The fact they come from Oxford means they're busy by the time they reach Twyford and the changes to Henley make them even busier.

Despite this we seem to have gained an extra stopping service at 06.49 that I've never seen anyone on. I suspect it will get busier after Slough but when I've caught the stoppers around this time they're nothing like as crowded as the fast trains.

I'm not convinced the IET will make much difference as Twyford at least only has one or two of these stopping and I wouldn't be surprised if they were only 5 cars initially.

Long experience has taught be not to much faith in the GWR publicity machine but just for a moment I thought there might be an improvement. The answer as always seems to mañana this time with Crossrail.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: lordgoata on January 12, 2018, 09:07:05 am
It's really strange, I've not had a "typical" day since I came back after Christmas - one day a particular service is 8 cars, another its 4. One day its cancelled, the next its not. One day its on time, the next its delayed. So I really can't get a feel for how the service has changed, as its been so bloody random for the past 2 weeks it feels like pot luck every day!

Thus far, I have gotten the 0651, 0703, 0730 from Goring. The 0651 misses Twyford, so is currently my preferred train, as the 0703 and 0730 get soooo busy at Twyford (which is fast becoming the new Maidenhead), wherever I end up sitting is a battle to get out the seat, before the inevitable battle to get out the door vs the passengers trying to get on.

Due to the 0651 being cancelled due to a train fault this morning (despite being On Time just 10 minutes before), today was my first trip on the 0703. It was extremely quite until Twyford (just 2 in the area I was sitting in, including me). That was probably due to the 0644 running a few minutes late, so collecting most of the 0651 passengers at Goring and the following stations I guess, but when we left Twyford every seat was occupied.

At the other end, I have gotten the 1710, 1740, 1810 from Maidenhead, and its been much the same experience with cancellations, short forms, delays, so again, hard to get a feel for what it will be like when it settles. Certainly there seems to be a hell of a lot of trains that arrive at Maidenhead and continue to Reading between 1700 and 1810 now (1714, 1726, 1743, 1752), but its a shame some of them can't carry on to Didcot.

There certainly seems to be more, longer trains arriving at Maidenhead in the evening when I am hanging around these days, compared to before, but I guess the majority are not the fast/semi-fast that NickB and co desire, hence there being no improvement in that regard.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on January 13, 2018, 09:06:04 am
7.33 Mai to pad was very full when it left maidenhead this morning.  I decided to opt out. I see no evidence of extra capacity currently

This is my problem. I don’t want to sound like a perpetual moaner but frankly the New Year changes have been utterly underwhelming.
In the morning the 7.01 Maidenhead to Paddington remains a 6 (often 5, sometimes 3) car turbo. Rammed. Followed by a 7.08 HST. Rammed. The changes for Henley make the Twyford connection trains utterly overcrowded as Jo reports above
In the evening the 17.49 HST is now an electric but appears to be full and standing WAY before the 17.49 ever did. Same for the 18.18 which theoretically has doubled in length and yet still requires passengers to ask others to move down and squeeze in at the doors. The 19.05 has gone leaving the improvement in running time of the 18.42 (now 18.49?) as the only improvement.
This is not good. When does the IET programme roll out in full so that I can see the benefits?

The morning experience matches mine and others I've spoken to - I've gone back to getting up (even) earlier and getting the stopper from Taplow as the 0701 "fast" from Maidenhead is hopelessly overcrowded, even worse I think than the "old" 0702.

Any additional capacity is eaten up by trains starting from Didcot etc rather than Maidenhead - did no one at GWR work that out?

The short formations, delays and unreliability (these are new trains remember) need to be sorted out fast so that the true picture of the much heralded additional capacity can be assessed - right now between Twyford and Paddington it seems pretty much the same, very poor story.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ellendune on January 13, 2018, 10:17:56 am
Any additional capacity is eaten up by trains starting from Didcot etc rather than Maidenhead - did no one at GWR work that out?

So why are the people from Didcot choosing these trains rather than the ones they used to?  Were those trains already similarly packed?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: didcotdean on January 13, 2018, 11:02:28 am
The 7:01 at Maidenhead starts all the way back at Oxford, and calls at every station between there and Maidenhead. For those between Oxford and Didcot it is now the only early morning option to London that does not require a change at Didcot or Reading, which might be an attraction to some, even though the journey might be slower overall.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ellendune on January 13, 2018, 12:23:29 pm
The 7:01 at Maidenhead starts all the way back at Oxford, and calls at every station between there and Maidenhead. For those between Oxford and Didcot it is now the only early morning option to London that does not require a change at Didcot or Reading, which might be an attraction to some, even though the journey might be slower overall.

That makes more sense then. 


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Sixty3Closure on January 13, 2018, 05:24:20 pm
As the 06.53 from Twyford it also picks up all the Henley passengers who get in a few minutes earlier (Although not early enough to get the non stop to London service at 06.44). Both trains are currently Turbos with all that entails.



Edit:  The direct to london service is at 06.44 not 08.44 as i managed to type


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on January 13, 2018, 10:13:58 pm
As the 06.53 from Twyford it also picks up all the Henley passengers who get in a few minutes earlier (Although not early enough to get the non stop to London service at 08.44). Both trains are currently Turbos with all that entails.

Perhaps one of GWRs resident geniuses could pick up on this and reschedule the Henley connection by a few minutes accordingly?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Sixty3Closure on January 14, 2018, 12:39:15 pm
That would be my suggestion but that won't work while the faster train is a 3 car turbo. I tend to avoid it as it can be even more crowded than the 06.53/07.01 that we've been discussing. It's also steadily shrunk over the years from when it use to be a 125.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 14, 2018, 05:43:56 pm
And if you were to schedule that Henley train a few minutes earlier, other Henley trains before it would also need retiming earlier, which would worsen the previous connection which at 7 minutes is currently a very good one.  That said, there would be fewer people travelling earlier, so if that fast from Twyford was to be extended beyond a 3-car Turbo, or the calling patterns are changed so that it started at Reading rather than Newbury so it wasn't as full when it gets to Twyford it might be a sensible change to make.  But if you do that, then you'd anger the good folk of Newbury, Thatcham and Theale unless you tinkered around elsewhere which of course might have a knock-on effect to somebody else.  You do indeed need to be a genius at GWR timetable planning to please everybody.

Mark Hopwood has said that fine tuning of the new timetable will be needed to optimise it.  There is no douby many people have seen big improvements to their commute, but it's clear some routes and times of day are still very poor. It will be interesting to see what is done in the interim before the Elizabeth Line kicks in properly next year, give the ineffective way the company is currently being run.  I am also very interested to see how Twyford, Maidenhead and Slough commuters are catered for post Elizabeth Line.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Surrey 455 on January 15, 2018, 11:22:16 am
Had my first experience of the GWR 387s yesterday (Sunday). I took a return journey from Paddington to Slough on an 8 car stopping service. It was very lightly loaded.
Seats - The seats seemed hard but did not cause me discomfort during the short journey. I was pleased with the seats. 2+2 seating is a lot more comfortable than the cramped 2+3 seating we had with the turbos.
Leg room - And the leg room is a lot better. My height and inside leg measurements are less than the UK average, but still my knees brush up against the seat in front on a turbo. Not so on the 387.
Seat Tray - The turbos originally had a small fold down tray on the back of seats for cups but were removed sometime later. I guess because the hole in the tray to was only big enough to fit a plastic cup of water from a water fountain and not the big coffee cups we see now and because of vandalism perhaps. Its good to see a proper seat back tray on the new trains.
Plug socket - Didn't need to use but could these have also incorporated a USB socket as well?
On board announcements - this was a strange one. There seems to be 4 different people on the recordings. The main female voice telling you where the train is going etc, a male voice telling you to mind the gap, another female voice  saying "Coach x of y". The phrase "London Paddington" as the destination appears to be spoken by another female voice instead of the main voice and sounds odd when stuck on the end of the main calling pattern announcement.

Overall my impressions of the train itself are positive.  How they are used by GWR may be another matter.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: NickB on January 15, 2018, 06:10:01 pm
Awesome. The 18.19 to Didcot is formed of 4 cars rather than 12 due to a fault.  This won’t be rammed and miserable at all.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: BBM on January 15, 2018, 06:30:10 pm
Awesome. The 18.19 to Didcot is formed of 4 cars rather than 12 due to a fault.  This won’t be rammed and miserable at all.

Also, the 1749 to Didcot was shown as having 6 cars so presumably that one was a pair of Turbos.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: NickB on January 15, 2018, 06:35:50 pm
If the 17.49 left passengers standing then that explains the very prompt filling of the 18.19.
I would be interested to hear of the faults that prevented both 12 car services from running tonight.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Sixty3Closure on January 15, 2018, 07:04:54 pm
"More than normal trains needing maintenance" or similar words according to the text alerts.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: johoare on January 16, 2018, 11:58:57 am
"More than normal trains needing maintenance" or similar words according to the text alerts.

If only they'd brought lots of shiny new trains... oh....  ::) ::)

Looking at Twitter there are now daily complaints to GWRhelp about the 7.33 and 8.02 (Mai to Pad) being very overcrowded since the timetable change.. I wonder if GWR are bothered enough to do something about it...


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on January 16, 2018, 04:38:36 pm
"More than normal trains needing maintenance" or similar words according to the text alerts.

If only they'd brought lots of shiny new trains... oh....  ::) ::)

Looking at Twitter there are now daily complaints to GWRhelp about the 7.33 and 8.02 (Mai to Pad) being very overcrowded since the timetable change.. I wonder if GWR are bothered enough to do something about it...

Loads of short forms again tonight and it looks like 387s are being replaced by Turbos on some services?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on January 16, 2018, 04:52:05 pm
"More than normal trains needing maintenance" or similar words according to the text alerts.

If only they'd brought lots of shiny new trains... oh....  ::) ::)

Looking at Twitter there are now daily complaints to GWRhelp about the 7.33 and 8.02 (Mai to Pad) being very overcrowded since the timetable change.. I wonder if GWR are bothered enough to do something about it...

Letters need to be sent to the Maidenhead MP, reminding to focus on local issues and not National ones


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on January 16, 2018, 05:32:22 pm
"More than normal trains needing maintenance" or similar words according to the text alerts.

If only they'd brought lots of shiny new trains... oh....  ::) ::)

Looking at Twitter there are now daily complaints to GWRhelp about the 7.33 and 8.02 (Mai to Pad) being very overcrowded since the timetable change.. I wonder if GWR are bothered enough to do something about it...

Letters need to be sent to the Maidenhead MP, reminding to focus on local issues and not National ones

......or, (and here's a radical concept), GWR could meaningfully and constructively act on and respond to their customers daily feedback after making so many promises about extra capacity, reliability etc?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on January 16, 2018, 05:50:20 pm
"More than normal trains needing maintenance" or similar words according to the text alerts.

If only they'd brought lots of shiny new trains... oh....  ::) ::)

Looking at Twitter there are now daily complaints to GWRhelp about the 7.33 and 8.02 (Mai to Pad) being very overcrowded since the timetable change.. I wonder if GWR are bothered enough to do something about it...


Letters need to be sent to the Maidenhead MP, reminding to focus on local issues and not National ones

......or, (and here's a radical concept), GWR could meaningfully and constructively act on and respond to their customers daily feedback after making so many promises about extra capacity, reliability etc?


Both are implausible  ;D  ;D



Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Surrey 455 on January 16, 2018, 09:04:48 pm
Apparently the first 504 days MOTs have taken place https://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/electric-class-387/1s-fleet-latest
Quote
The first T504 exams have been carried out. These are done after 504 days in traffic, with 387136 the first to be treated, followed by 387131. This involves a more intrusive exam compared with the lighter T45 exam (carried out after 45 days), and involves work on electrical equipment as well as visual checks.

Hadn't realised that GWR had had them for that long?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: a-driver on January 16, 2018, 10:04:46 pm
Hadn't realised that GWR had had them for that long?

I think it was August or September 2016 when the first unit was delivered. Hasn’t that time gone quickly?!


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on January 16, 2018, 10:14:53 pm
Hadn't realised that GWR had had them for that long?

I think it was August or September 2016 when the first unit was delivered. Hasn’t that time gone quickly?!

I've seen others still talking about "teething troubles" 🙈


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Interceptor on January 16, 2018, 10:15:24 pm
Just throwing out there, 504 days "in traffic"? Really perhaps inspections out to be around hours operated (like aircraft). I don't know but are inspection regimes created around the vehicles earning a living from day one (accepting requirements for driver training etc) as, I may be very off the mark, but I don't think the 387's are really run in yet or am I missing something?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: a-driver on January 16, 2018, 10:19:49 pm
Just throwing out there, 504 days "in traffic"? Really perhaps inspections out to be around hours operated (like aircraft). I don't know but are inspection regimes created around the vehicles earning a living from day one (accepting requirements for driver training etc) as, I may be very off the mark, but I don't think the 387's are really run in yet or am I missing something?

That’s the first I’ve heard of it. Usually train maintenance is based on mileage’s or engine hours unless this has something to do with unit acceptance


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: lordgoata on January 17, 2018, 09:12:14 am
Both 0651 and 0703 from Goring were short-formed (4 carriages) today. At least I assume they were short formed, I have no idea how many they should have, as they seem to vary day after day ...


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: NickB on January 17, 2018, 06:25:27 pm
A mess for peak time TV services tonight. The 18.19 was cancelled at 18.18 and the 18.42 is already cancelled. That puts 20 carriages of passengers on to an all-stop service.
Utterly utterly useless. This ‘upgrade’ is the biggest white elephant of all time.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: johoare on January 17, 2018, 09:26:55 pm
It's not a good situation. I was on the 17.26 which I think is the 17.42 as was but earlier now so in front of the heathrow connect rather than following it which makes sense as the 17.26 is first stop slough. It's not over busy but a bit early to get regularly.

7.32 Mai to pad this morning.. Full and crowded.. Arrived at pad at 8.32 instead of 7.55.. Disgraceful.. Not gwrs fault there was a speed restriction but this is the very reason they can't run dangerously overcrowded trains  >:(


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: a-driver on January 17, 2018, 09:35:06 pm
I’m seeing a lot of cancellations and delays attributed to coupling/uncoupling issues
and DOO camera issues. The 1819 was cancelled because of a DOO camera fault.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 17, 2018, 09:58:43 pm
I’m not sure what percentage of these are actual faults, and what part driver familiarisation plays in them.  I know many drivers either had never coupled/uncoupled a train in service having perhaps done it a couple of time’s many months before on the depot, so not surprising to me that there are issues.

Not in all cases on obviously, but the haphazard training programme is perhaps revealing itself now, more than the unreliablility of the 387s.  Identical new build trains seem to be performing fine on the Gatwick Express sector of Southern for example - their drivers would have been very used to driving similar types of train.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: lordgoata on January 18, 2018, 08:37:54 am
Why are they uncoupling them anyway? Surely it would be easier just to run them in longer formation with the back 4 locked out, than cancel or delay them? Or until the platforms are lengthened, keep them all 8 carriages? Or only run the 12 carriage ones on the Paddington <-> Maidenhead, and/or Paddington <-> Reading semi-fasts?

They are genuine questions by the way, having to couple/uncouple on a busy service like we have just seems to be asking for trouble to me!


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: a-driver on January 18, 2018, 12:03:13 pm
Why are they uncoupling them anyway? Surely it would be easier just to run them in longer formation with the back 4 locked out, than cancel or delay them? Or until the platforms are lengthened, keep them all 8 carriages? Or only run the 12 carriage ones on the Paddington <-> Maidenhead, and/or Paddington <-> Reading semi-fasts?

They are genuine questions by the way, having to couple/uncouple on a busy service like we have just seems to be asking for trouble to me!

Because there probably isn’t  enough units.
What probably happens is that a seevice leaves Paddington bound for Didcot as an 8-car. At Reading 4 will detach and form another service back to Paddington where on arrival it may couple to another set to make another 8-car.

I don’t think it is down to the 387 training. I think in general GWR drivers and taught to be overly cautious in comparison to drivers with other TOC’s. It really is no different to driving any other train in terms of powering and braking. The only real difference is fault finding and knowing your way around the unit and having said that, fault finding is gernally done by someone on the other end of a phone.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: lordgoata on January 18, 2018, 12:09:24 pm
Because there probably isn’t  enough units.
What probably happens is that a seevice leaves Paddington bound for Didcot as an 8-car. At Reading 4 will detach and form another service back to Paddington where on arrival it may couple to another set to make another 8-car.

Ah, apologies, I thought all the new 387 were 8 carriages as standard, so it was the 12 unit ones being split to form an 8 and (assumed) sending the other 4 to the depot at Reading (I realise some have been out of action due to "repairs", but I've only been on them when its split at Reading as a 12).


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on January 18, 2018, 01:45:22 pm
Because there probably isn’t  enough units.
What probably happens is that a seevice leaves Paddington bound for Didcot as an 8-car. At Reading 4 will detach and form another service back to Paddington where on arrival it may couple to another set to make another 8-car.

Ah, apologies, I thought all the new 387 were 8 carriages as standard, so it was the 12 unit ones being split to form an 8 and (assumed) sending the other 4 to the depot at Reading (I realise some have been out of action due to "repairs", but I've only been on them when its split at Reading as a 12).

The 8 carriage configuration was sold to the public by GWR as part of the Nirvana they would be delivering upon us all from 2nd January. Once again they have failed to deliver....it's not you who should be apologising lordgoata, it's GWR, but they've forgotten how to do that.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: a-driver on January 18, 2018, 03:58:16 pm
Not really GWR’s fault. This is what the DfT signed off for

Not all the units have been delivered and there is the possibility of more transferring from another operator. Again, this depends on the DfTs plans.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ellendune on January 18, 2018, 04:06:54 pm
If DfT are going to micromanage the railway they really need to come clean and say so.  Then we all know who to praise when the service is perfect.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: grahame on January 18, 2018, 04:11:01 pm
The capacity discussions I've seen seem to measure for the most part in SOOPs (Seats Out Of Paddington) and indeed traffic on most trains out of Paddington if greater on departure than at any later point in the journey, so it does make some sense to drop carriages at some appropriate intermediate point and send them back in for another load.    Reading would seem a suitable point to drop 4 at the moment; at some future date, someone might sling up some cheap, light weight, low speed overheads on the Henley branch and you could drop 4 carriages at Twyford and provide a though service all day.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on January 18, 2018, 04:55:45 pm
Not really GWR’s fault. This is what the DfT signed off for

Not all the units have been delivered and there is the possibility of more transferring from another operator. Again, this depends on the DfTs plans.

It's GWR who have been trumpeting thousands of additional seats coinciding with the new timetable and referring to 8 carriage trains as the default formation with some trains having 12. If they weren't able to deliver it, then why (as so often) have they overpromised and under delivered?

Right now Maidenhead in the morning peak is a nightmare - far worse than it was before.

Anyhow, it's not the DfTs fault that they don't employ sufficient numbers of drivers or mechanics, that one sits squarely with GWR.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: a-driver on January 18, 2018, 05:13:24 pm
Not really GWR’s fault. This is what the DfT signed off for

Not all the units have been delivered and there is the possibility of more transferring from another operator. Again, this depends on the DfTs plans.

It's GWR who have been trumpeting thousands of additional seats coinciding with the new timetable and referring to 8 carriage trains as the default formation with some trains having 12. If they weren't able to deliver it, then why (as so often) have they overpromised and under delivered?

Right now Maidenhead in the morning peak is a nightmare - far worse than it was before.

Anyhow, it's not the DfTs fault that they don't employ sufficient numbers of drivers or mechanics, that one sits squarely with GWR.

Some locations are understaffed, some are massively overstaffed. Some locations aren’t fully trained on the new traction. I think a lot more left the LTV depots than they predicted, me included, and that was solely down to job security or lack of.

The whole service doesn’t revolve around Maidenhead, other locations may have benefited significantly but with such a large timetable change, there was always the risk of issues. Large scale changes could be made on the next timetable change. Small changes can be made quite easily and they been on the Henley branch.  Things need to be allowed to settle down. At the moment, all but one 387 is diagrammed to be used on a weekday.
What is the issue at Maidenhead. Lack of fast services or short forms?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on January 18, 2018, 05:28:20 pm
What is the issue at Maidenhead. Lack of fast services or short forms?
Yep ............... both

Also the timing of the Henley branch possibly means the trains a full before they reach Maidenhead.  An example is 06:32 fast from Maidenhead whilst not ram packed there is a shortage of seats


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 18, 2018, 05:30:33 pm
I’m sure something will happen last minute, and I know the 17:18 PAD-OXF semi-fast Turbo was cancelled, but it looks like (for the first time?) both the 17:49 and 18:19 PAD-DID semi-fasts will actually be formed of the scheduled 12 carriages tonight.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on January 18, 2018, 05:56:31 pm
I’m sure something will happen last minute, and I know the 17:18 PAD-OXF semi-fast Turbo was cancelled, but it looks like (for the first time?) both the 17:49 and 18:19 PAD-DID semi-fasts will actually be formed of the scheduled 12 carriages tonight.

..............let's hope they can get through.............

Due to a track defect at Didcot Parkway some high speed services between London Paddington and Oxford have been altered. Customers travelling from London Paddington can travel to Reading to connect with a Cross Country service to Oxford. Customers from Oxford can travel via Cross Country services to Reading.
Congestion may occur in the Didcot Parkway area as only 4 out of the 5 platforms are available for use.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 18, 2018, 09:40:40 pm
..............let's hope they can get through.............

They did, with a 7 and 12 minute delay respectively. Too early to be sure, and still not good enough, but availability does seem to be improving day on day.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: johoare on January 19, 2018, 08:10:31 am
What is the issue at Maidenhead. Lack of fast services or short forms?
Yep ............... both

Also the timing of the Henley branch possibly means the trains a full before they reach Maidenhead.  An example is 06:32 fast from Maidenhead whilst not ram packed there is a shortage of seats

The 7.32 and 8.02 departures  are both overfull now and not everyone can always get on..GWR promised extra capacity and have been doing so for years as a response to how overcrowded the trains were before..Sadly we all believed them and it's just turned out not to be true.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: NickB on January 19, 2018, 09:07:54 am
If it’s bad today just imagine what it will be like when RBWM build the proposed additional 14,000 homes in Maidenhead...


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: lordgoata on January 19, 2018, 09:14:37 am
If it’s bad today just imagine what it will be like when RBWM build the proposed additional 14,000 homes in Maidenhead...

Plus the 10,000's being built in all the other towns and villages on the line before Maidenhead (as well as after, of course).


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 19, 2018, 10:20:31 am
That’s why you’re getting Crossrail.  Won’t be long before Maidenhead is a London suburb!


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: onthecushions on January 19, 2018, 11:38:19 am

Caught the 1749 ex-Paddington last Friday, 12 car 387 (a rarity it seems). It was about full, back to car 12, where I was, but not bad for a peak service. The performance was, as OS Nock would say, "sparkling", with stops at Maidenhead (including crossing to reliefs) and Twyford, arriving into Reading at 1824, the same gross timing as a 47 + 7, non stop. It then took  time to unhitch the rear four, not quite a match for Southern slickness with its 57 and 63 stock.

There were many announcements, quite sexist as the woman's voice was not allowed to do the important "mind the gap/doors" bit, but she did tell me which car I was in. At Maidenhead, the lady sitting next to me asked when we stopped at Ealing Broadway....

The problem is that GWR will have to do that 4 times an hour, >95% of the time. I think that it ought to cancel a 12 car train rather than try running with 4 cars. Surely it is "running in" its 387's....? BR used to insist on mileage accumulation before stock entered service.

My sympathy for those stuck on the GWR learning curve.

OTC



Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Western Enterprise on January 19, 2018, 11:42:41 am

 The performance was, as OS Nock would say, "sparkling", with stops at Maidenhead
:) :)
I bet the fireman was mortgaging the boiler in that case !!!
 :D


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: NickB on January 19, 2018, 04:40:11 pm
Both 12-car services are running as 8-car versions tonight due to 'repairs'.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Sixty3Closure on January 19, 2018, 05:18:47 pm
At least on Fridays its not quite so crowded. Assuming they both run of course....


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: NickB on January 19, 2018, 05:53:41 pm
Tell that to the masses that are standing on the 17.49 😀
There is very little floor space left - it’s definitely ‘over full’


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: stuving on January 19, 2018, 06:27:27 pm
I found this quote in a piece on Rail Engineer about EGIP (https://www.railengineer.uk/2018/01/18/egips-millerhill-milestone/):
Quote
It is expected that, as Hitachi ramps up Class 385 production at its Newton Aycliffe plant, the original December 2017 milestone for a full service of seven-car EMUs on the Edinburgh to Glasgow service is likely to be achieved in the next few months. No date has been set for this, however, and ScotRail Alliance’s managing director Alex Hynes has stated that he does not want to jeopardise the line’s current good punctuality and passenger satisfaction by introducing the trains before sufficient numbers are fully tested.

If you (and your friends from Mossad?) wereto corral a GWR manager, and quote that, the reply might be "chance would be a fine thing ... but we're caught between demands and dates we can't control so we just have to cope as best we can". Blame for that can be spread around according to what you believe of the information that's come out, but then blame never made a train run.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on January 19, 2018, 07:14:26 pm
I found this quote in a piece on Rail Engineer about EGIP (https://www.railengineer.uk/2018/01/18/egips-millerhill-milestone/):
Quote
It is expected that, as Hitachi ramps up Class 385 production at its Newton Aycliffe plant, the original December 2017 milestone for a full service of seven-car EMUs on the Edinburgh to Glasgow service is likely to be achieved in the next few months. No date has been set for this, however, and ScotRail Alliance’s managing director Alex Hynes has stated that he does not want to jeopardise the line’s current good punctuality and passenger satisfaction by introducing the trains before sufficient numbers are fully tested.

If you (and your friends from Mossad?) wereto corral a GWR manager, and quote that, the reply might be "chance would be a fine thing ... but we're caught between demands and dates we can't control so we just have to cope as best we can". Blame for that can be spread around according to what you believe of the information that's come out, but then blame never made a train run.


Leaving aside the (at best patronising, at worst borderline offensive) reference to Mossad, perhaps had GWR adopted a similarly cautious attitude and not spent the second half of 2017 blowing fanfares about how wonderful things were going to be come the new timetable with 8/12 carriage trains transforming the service and reducing overcrowding, they just might not appear to be the woefully failing organisation they once again seem to be.....even an apology/explanation from Hopwood may help, but as always neither have been forthcoming....


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: stuving on January 20, 2018, 03:47:34 pm
I found this quote in a piece on Rail Engineer about EGIP (https://www.railengineer.uk/2018/01/18/egips-millerhill-milestone/):
Quote
It is expected that, as Hitachi ramps up Class 385 production at its Newton Aycliffe plant, the original December 2017 milestone for a full service of seven-car EMUs on the Edinburgh to Glasgow service is likely to be achieved in the next few months. No date has been set for this, however, and ScotRail Alliance’s managing director Alex Hynes has stated that he does not want to jeopardise the line’s current good punctuality and passenger satisfaction by introducing the trains before sufficient numbers are fully tested.

If you (and your friends from Mossad?) wereto corral a GWR manager, and quote that, the reply might be "chance would be a fine thing ... but we're caught between demands and dates we can't control so we just have to cope as best we can". Blame for that can be spread around according to what you believe of the information that's come out, but then blame never made a train run.


Leaving aside the (at best patronising, at worst borderline offensive) reference to Mossad, perhaps had GWR adopted a similarly cautious attitude and not spent the second half of 2017 blowing fanfares about how wonderful things were going to be come the new timetable with 8/12 carriage trains transforming the service and reducing overcrowding, they just might not appear to be the woefully failing organisation they once again seem to be.....even an apology/explanation from Hopwood may help, but as always neither have been forthcoming....

I was puzzled by that reply, but when I looked at what I'd written I realised what it was responding to. I can only say I'm sorry to you, TG, for what you may have seen as a personal attack, and say that I wasn't thinking on those lines at all. It was perhaps rather flippant, and hurried, but my fault either way.

For a start, I was commenting on the Scotrail statement - which I'd attached to a post by TG, but only as one of a number that it was relevant to. When I wrote "If you ...", I could equally have said "if I ..." or "If one ...", but "you" felt more naturally idiomatic. And that remark about Mossad was just picking up on the comments (not just by TG) about Mark Hopwood's elusiveness - so it ought to offend him, perhaps.

As to the rest, it's mostly what I've said before - though the initial short-term rolling stock shortage, to which GWR added their own staff shortages, has now been compounded by a mysterious difficulty for GWR-trained drivers to couple/uncouple trains known to do this perfectly well in other hands. While scattering blame about doesn't (as I day) help to run trains on the day, identifying causes (not quite the same thing) is of course needed to solve problems eventually. And there's no reason why we shouldn't blame those at fault - or even those not - but then we don't have to run the trains.

So I do hope, TaplowGreen, you will accept my apology for any offence I caused as unintentionally.



Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ElectricLad on January 30, 2018, 08:25:47 pm
The 18:12 from Pad tonight, was formed of four rather than the usual 8 387, although an improvement from the 5/6 class 165.

At Ealing Broadway the driver let his tongue lose and had a rant at the train, after three failed attempts at closing the doors the train shuts down or something like that.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ITGuy on February 05, 2018, 08:23:37 pm
Well tonight was fun  >:(

I especially liked the 1819 being changed to be fast to Reading, and so leaving what looked like virtually empty...as seen from the rammed 1842 (Reading) on the adjacent platform. It's almost as if they don't have a clue.

It would also be nice if the 0733 Mai - Pad would remember it's supposed to arrive at 0755, not 0800 or later.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Birdie100 on February 05, 2018, 09:03:44 pm
Complete shambles this evening. Missed the 19.48 by 1 min. Trying to get to maidenhead. I had two chances to ride a Slough service but the useless gang have pretended to run, then cancelled 2x ..18/48 services and all the stoppers in between. Finally rolling at 21.01!!! Still, hearing the support desk staff publically swearing about the quality of the service from 'the management' shows how everyone's morale has collapsed...


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on February 05, 2018, 09:30:32 pm
SNAFU


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: sanfrandragon on February 06, 2018, 08:43:17 am
SNAFU

yup, SNAFU indeed.  Can anyone tell me the benefits of electrification?  It's cleaner & greener I suppose, supposedly better acceleration but my journey time is the same (when the service runs properly), more capacity maybe but the trains seem just as full and the whole 'front 4 carriages for this, back 2 carriages for that'  just causes confusion; it must be impossible for tourists/non English speakers to comprehend.  It would help if they numbered the carriages for a start.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Sixty3Closure on February 06, 2018, 08:49:29 am
I agree with the carriage numbering. While there are announcements once you're on board (most times) it would be useful to be able to identify carriages whilst on the platform. At the moment I have to resort to counting but even then I find the expected 12 carriages have shrunk to 8 or 4 and have to double back.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: broadgage on February 06, 2018, 09:21:21 am
SNAFU

yup, SNAFU indeed.  Can anyone tell me the benefits of electrification?  It's cleaner & greener I suppose, supposedly better acceleration but my journey time is the same (when the service runs properly), more capacity maybe but the trains seem just as full and the whole 'front 4 carriages for this, back 2 carriages for that'  just causes confusion; it must be impossible for tourists/non English speakers to comprehend.  It would help if they numbered the carriages for a start.

IN THEORY electrification has many benefits, however this is seldom achieved in the UK these days. Network rail have proved incapable of electrifying lines on time or to a budget. Those bits that have been electrified are unreliable, a problem that will presumably worsen as electrification slowly spreads.
Electric trains SHOULD be more reliable than diesel since there is less to go wrong, unfortunately each new generation of electric trains seems to be more complex and less reliable than older ones. Note for example the number of short formed new electric trains due to "more trains than usual needing repairs"

Trains that divide en-route are in theory an excellent idea so as to serve more destinations, or to better match capacity to passenger numbers. Again however, the practice has not matched the theoretical advantages.
Too many announcements refer to a longer train than actually provided for example. "front 4 coaches for ABC and rear 4 coaches for XYZ" when what appears is only 4 in total.

The old Southern railway was known for portion working, and it worked well for decades, but you cant expect that today.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: paul7755 on February 06, 2018, 09:55:01 am
The old Southern railway was known for portion working, and it worked well for decades, but you cant expect that today.
Can’t see why not - SWR have various forms of portion working happening 7 days a week and it is completely unremarkable.   Is there any statistically significant unreliability caused by it?

Paul


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: didcotdean on February 06, 2018, 10:51:13 am
The GWR 387s though are the last build of an older generation of EMUs.  If you look through the diagrams there aren't a lot 'spare' for peak demands (12 carriage sets etc). If they were a new generation, I daresay they could well have had external displays, as the 800s do.

From what I have pieced together there are still not quite the full number delivered, and the damage rate to the pans (or parts thereof) for those in service has been higher than to be expected, which was attributed to a issue on the H&H bay platform.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 06, 2018, 01:39:09 pm
GWR’s 387s have external displays, which are very useful in listing the calling points and could presumably be configured to also display the carriage number.

The problem will largely go away when the platform extension works are completed, but work is proceeding at snail pace for some reason.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: didcotdean on February 06, 2018, 01:42:41 pm
Have they - I guess you don't notice them when you get on at the starting points :)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Electric train on February 06, 2018, 06:32:56 pm
The GWR 387s though are the last build of an older generation of EMUs.  If you look through the diagrams there aren't a lot 'spare' for peak demands (12 carriage sets etc). If they were a new generation, I daresay they could well have had external displays, as the 800s do.

From what I have pieced together there are still not quite the full number delivered, and the damage rate to the pans (or parts thereof) for those in service has been higher than to be expected, which was attributed to a issue on the H&H bay platform.


I noted last week that the SI (Section Insulator) on the entry into the H&H bay had been replaced, the SI could have caused the damage to the pan carbons which my take a few weeks to manifest as a problem on the train its self


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: sanfrandragon on February 09, 2018, 10:38:06 am
GWR’s 387s have external displays, which are very useful in listing the calling points and could presumably be configured to also display the carriage number.

The problem will largely go away when the platform extension works are completed, but work is proceeding at snail pace for some reason.

I may have heard some weeks ago the driver telling us that the displays couldn't be changed due to a programming fault - is this right?

For seasoned commuters its not a problem; everyone knows which carriage to be in, or that you can just walk down the train as it approaches the station, but for casual passengers it seems to cause no end of confusion!


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 09, 2018, 11:05:18 am
Well, they can be changed in that the driver enters a code to list all the station stops and the other information for whatever service they’re driving, but they can’t configure it to display specific information like a coach number on the external displays - that would need software modifications.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ITGuy on February 12, 2018, 08:43:27 pm
It's Monday so must be time to cancel the 1819 and 1842 from Pad. This week's excuse is lack of train crew.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 13, 2018, 12:12:29 am
I didn’t realise those cancellations were day-of-the-week specific!


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on February 13, 2018, 06:47:37 pm
1842 cancelled again......."train fault" this time.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ITGuy on February 15, 2018, 07:15:44 am
More mass cancellations this morning due to staff shortages. Has there been an outbreak of plague in the crew room or just incompetent rostering?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: grahame on February 15, 2018, 07:36:01 am
More mass cancellations this morning due to staff shortages. Has there been an outbreak of plague in the crew room or just incompetent rostering?

With the co-incidence of Valentine's, Half Term, Pancake Day, and the excitement of the Winter Olympics all in the same week this year, at a time of year when there will be a higher incidence of illness, and the last full week for working out responses to the GWR consultation (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=19330.0) too, this is the most difficult week of the year - perhaps the most difficult week for a number of years - for service industries to keep staffed.

Modelling of requirements is probably done using an expected spread of none-availabiity, with most attention given to times within one or two standard deviations of the median.   I suspect this week may be 3 standard deviations from the norm -  that's one week in 350.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on February 15, 2018, 08:12:01 am
More mass cancellations this morning due to staff shortages. Has there been an outbreak of plague in the crew room or just incompetent rostering?

Incompetence.

Bragging about thousands more seats when you don't have enough staff to make them available on a day to day basis.

In 30 years of working in service industries, a better example of over promising and under delivering, failing to meet expectations which GWR themselves set I have yet to see.

All those promises about a "Brave New World" come the start of 2018 seem a long, long time ago. The service has deteriorated ever since the new timetable came in.

Every Business has to cope with holidays, I have yet to see one fold so spectacularly or regularly as GWR every time one comes around.

..................ah but then again I didn't take Shrove Tuesday into account!  ::)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: a-driver on February 15, 2018, 08:40:23 pm
School holidays etc are no different for staff availability than any other. All leave is rostered so effectively the same number of staff are off every week all year round. Ad-hoc Leave is only granted to a maximum number of staff every week. This is based on the size of the depot.
The problem isn’t crew shortage but a shortage of crew who are trained on the traction. GWR could only train a handful of drivers at any one time because the overhead power lines were only available from Paddington to Hayes to begin with so you’re only limited to a handful of trains per day.
The Turbo’s has to go West because the DfT has already promised West units to other franchises plus Turbos and West Units were all due for major maintenance  exams. If those Turbos were not required in the West region they would have stayed longer in the Thames Valley until they had trained enough drivers on the 387’s which would then allowed a gradual introduction.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Sixty3Closure on February 15, 2018, 09:16:16 pm

The frustration for me apart from all the cancellations is how short notice many of the changes. In between leaving work and getting to Paddington which is about 30 mins I've found trains being cancelled. Is it not possible to look at the resources you have the day before or even in the morning and then plan your timetable and communication accordingly?



Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ellendune on February 15, 2018, 09:20:12 pm
School holidays etc are no different for staff availability than any other. All leave is rostered so effectively the same number of staff are off every week all year round. Ad-hoc Leave is only granted to a maximum number of staff every week. This is based on the size of the depot.
The problem isn’t crew shortage but a shortage of crew who are trained on the traction. GWR could only train a handful of drivers at any one time because the overhead power lines were only available from Paddington to Hayes to begin with so you’re only limited to a handful of trains per day.
The Turbo’s has to go West because the DfT has already promised West units to other franchises plus Turbos and West Units were all due for major maintenance  exams. If those Turbos were not required in the West region they would have stayed longer in the Thames Valley until they had trained enough drivers on the 387’s which would then allowed a gradual introduction.

Thanks that answers most of the questions I have been asking from a LTV point of view.   

So it appears the reason is not the CEO's personal incompetence then or even the incompetence of GWR in not providing enough drivers.  It is the consequence of delays to the electrification and rolling stock.   


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Timmer on February 15, 2018, 09:55:01 pm
Thanks that answers most of the questions I have been asking from a LTV point of view.   

So it appears the reason is not the CEO's personal incompetence then or even the incompetence of GWR in not providing enough drivers.  It is the consequence of delays to the electrification and rolling stock.   
It’s GWR’s/First’s names on the trains and stations so that’s who the travelling public will look to and who they will blame for the failures of all parties concerned. That comes with the privilege of making the money that First do from running the GW franchise.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on February 15, 2018, 10:37:28 pm
School holidays etc are no different for staff availability than any other. All leave is rostered so effectively the same number of staff are off every week all year round. Ad-hoc Leave is only granted to a maximum number of staff every week. This is based on the size of the depot.
The problem isn’t crew shortage but a shortage of crew who are trained on the traction. GWR could only train a handful of drivers at any one time because the overhead power lines were only available from Paddington to Hayes to begin with so you’re only limited to a handful of trains per day.
The Turbo’s has to go West because the DfT has already promised West units to other franchises plus Turbos and West Units were all due for major maintenance  exams. If those Turbos were not required in the West region they would have stayed longer in the Thames Valley until they had trained enough drivers on the 387’s which would then allowed a gradual introduction.

Check out @FabFrosty’s Tweet: https://twitter.com/FabFrosty/status/964258693029261313?s=09

You'll find GWRHelp's response to this tweet  enlightening


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Timmer on February 16, 2018, 05:57:24 am
Yes I saw that twitter conversation last night. So GWR are in denial that they have a staffing problem?

They just need to ask their long suffering passengers...they will tell them.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Sixty3Closure on February 16, 2018, 08:28:41 am
Thanks that answers most of the questions I have been asking from a LTV point of view.   

So it appears the reason is not the CEO's personal incompetence then or even the incompetence of GWR in not providing enough drivers.  It is the consequence of delays to the electrification and rolling stock.   
It’s GWR’s/First’s names on the trains and stations so that’s who the travelling public will look to and who they will blame for the failures of all parties concerned. That comes with the privilege of making the money that First do from running the GW franchise.

Even accepting that the problems are not all of GWRs making as discussed on the other thread the challenges have hardly crept up on them. Being generous and assuming they've done what they can I still think there's more they could do:

Stop advertising and promoting all the thousands of extra seats and new trains as a start?
Maybe a statement from senior management acknowledging the problem?
A gesture towards season tickets holders as they're the ones who can't claim refunds and will probably just get the usual 5% when they renew?
Hire extra customer service staff to deal with queries and provide information? Twitter is quite reactive from what I've seen.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: devonexpress on April 20, 2018, 09:58:36 pm
GWR's recruitment process along with a lot of other companies is too fussy, from what I've heard, you could be an absolute saint, but if your image doesn't fit, they won't take you on.

It also doesn't help that a lot of the drivers and dispatchers/guards where near retirement, and decided to leave early rather than learn a new train and drive/operate it for 2 or 3 years then retire.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ITGuy on May 03, 2018, 07:52:35 pm
According to a tannoy announcement this morning, the 0733 Maidenhead to Paddington will be 12 cars when the new timetable starts in a few weeks. Could be fun getting 200 people through 1 set of doors if the space is only in the rear 4, but at least it's an attempt to make things better.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 19, 2018, 10:20:09 am
According to a tannoy announcement this morning, the 0733 Maidenhead to Paddington will be 12 cars when the new timetable starts in a few weeks. Could be fun getting 200 people through 1 set of doors if the space is only in the rear 4, but at least it's an attempt to make things better.


Three more daily services are going over to 12-car operation from Monday, presumably using the two units released from Hayes to Paddington services which are going over to TfL Rail Class 345s.

They are:
1P08, 06:52 Didcot Parkway to Paddington
1P11, 07:53 Twyford to Paddington
1R05, 18:42 Paddington to Reading


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ITGuy on May 21, 2018, 08:50:27 pm
Do you know how 1P08 is formed up? Does it run 8 from Didcot and then pick up 4 at Reading or is it 12 all the way? There wasn't any noticeable extra space in car 4 this morning at Maidenhead. Will have to try the rear tomorrow.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: didcotdean on May 21, 2018, 09:22:00 pm
According to a tweet from GWRhelp today in response to someone asking this question, 12-carriage sets are not being run beyond Reading presently. Can't verify this personally.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 22, 2018, 12:12:20 am
Do you know how 1P08 is formed up? Does it run 8 from Didcot and then pick up 4 at Reading or is it 12 all the way? There wasn't any noticeable extra space in car 4 this morning at Maidenhead. Will have to try the rear tomorrow.

Supposed to be 12-car all the way, having run empty from Reading TCD as 3P08.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on June 04, 2018, 08:23:46 pm
Quote
I can report that the rear 4 carriages are utterly deserted. Maybe 5 passengers per carriage. The front 8 are full and standing -
So passengers would rather stand in coaches 1-8 for 20-30 minutes, instead of having a seat in coach 9 or 10 and walking through a minute before their destination?  ::)

Apparently so.

Certainly you'd have thought coaches 9 and 10 would be not too much of an inconvenience for the reward of a seat.  As others have said I expect it will sink in to the regulars soon enough.  Glad to hear the announcements were much better tonight though, and funnily enough dwell times at Maidenhead and Twyford were much better. 

Was pottering around London town today and decided to catch the 17:49 back to Tilehurst. As it happens I was sat in the rear of coach 8 and was able to see how the situation developed with regards to the rear 4 coaches.

I counted 80 people coming from the rear 4 coaches to use the rear set of doors on coach 8 at Maidenhead. This led to a 3 minute dwell time though luckily we had arrived 2 minutes early. A station staff member also boarded to ensure everyone had gotten off before the train departed.

It would seem Twyford pax had a little more sense* and used the time in between Maidenhead and Twyford to move forward, most of which continued to the front of coach 8 or further forward. I counted 50 people who did this with a further 10 passing from coach 9 into coach 8 on arrival at Twyford.

A further 15 people passed through between Twyford and Reading, those heading to Tilehurst and beyond, with a small handful that transferred from the rear to the front by way of platform at Reading.


*Admittedly all it takes is a handful of people to stand by the rear doorway of coach 8 to stop any others from being able to proceed further


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: bobm on June 16, 2018, 02:00:48 pm
Saw this explanation on Twitter this week for why some 12 car formations are being run as 8.

Not sure I follow it....

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/elect12.png)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: TaplowGreen on June 16, 2018, 02:26:07 pm
Another example of GWR raising expectations then failing to keep their promises.

This particular service (0733) is consistently horrendously overcrowded and GWR have been waving the 12 car train in everyone's faces for some time by way of mitigation - it was supposed to start some time ago but I am not sure if as yet it ever has.

Generally speaking GWR seem to fail to understand the quite simple concept when they brag about all the extra capacity from Maidenhead that if you start trains from Didcot that previously started from Maidenhead or Reading, they are likely to be full long before they arrive.

Yet another own goal.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: bobm on June 16, 2018, 02:27:32 pm
My point was - where is this loop which prevents the service from running?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: SandTEngineer on June 16, 2018, 02:40:58 pm
Hi Bob, I think its the loop at Didcot where the 3P08 empty stock from Reading TC Depot reverses before forming the 1P08 0652 (0733 Maidenhead) service.  I've had a quick look on RTT but can't see any obvious conflict there at that particular time.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: stuving on June 16, 2018, 03:30:20 pm
I have another theory. In the WTT shown in RTT for last week, 1P08 was assembled in Didcot P4 from two ECS workings from Reading Depot - suggesting there's nowhere there that can assemble a 12-car EMU. It ran to Paddington P9, arriving in P9 at 7:55, and then ran ECS to West Ealing Loop where it was to sit from 8:11 to 18:18. It then returned to Paddington, to form 1R05 18:42 to Reading. Reality didn't quite match that, but in different ways each day.

There is a freight movement, 6M70 "Brentford Town Days Gbrf to Neasden Engineers Sdg Gbrf", due through West Ealing Loop at 13:45-14:07. On Thursday it was cancelled, and the train ran (length unknown). On Friday it ran, and the train went into the loop and then vanished; the evening working was cancelled for staffing reasons (allegedly).


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on June 16, 2018, 10:04:09 pm
I don't see how that West Ealing Loop could be the problem, it wouldn't matter if it was a single engine or an 18 car train, it would still be in the way of that freight train passing through?

Quote
In the WTT shown in RTT for last week, 1P08 was assembled in Didcot P4 from two ECS workings from Reading Depot - suggesting there's nowhere there that can assemble a 12-car EMU
??? Each 1P08 working is formed from one 3P08 working. Are you reading the Didcot entry twice by any chance, firstly as it passes through Didcot (06:31) and then as it arrives at Didcot (06:44)?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: stuving on June 16, 2018, 11:40:29 pm
There are two West Ealing Sidings, accessed off the loop, each capable of holding two 8-car 387s. That's what they were built for: "West Ealing Sidings (WES) is being redeveloped to house Great Western Railway’s (GWR) rolling stock during inter-peak hours between the West and Paddington station. The sidings shall provide a stabling facility for GWR’s existing Diesel trains and the newly introduced Electric trains."

The current timetable sends four trains there each morning, so even if one of those could be persuaded to go back out in service (e.g. to Reading) it wouldn't make space for a 12-car one. Hence that goes to the loop, not one of the sidings. Mind you, it does seem a bit optimistic to think you can have exclusive use all day of a loop that's partly there for goods trains to duck into.

As to my not so relevant comments about Didcot, I'm sure you're right - I don't now see what I did, either for P4 or the same thing for P3, so I must have misread it. And even if RTT did show two trains in for only one out, it does that quite often without it meaning a lot. So I guess we should assume that Reading Depot can pass each morining's Chinese puzzle exam even with a 12-car train or two to assemble.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: grahame on June 17, 2018, 04:16:07 am
Mind you, it does seem a bit optimistic to think you can have exclusive use all day of a loop that's partly there for goods trains to duck into.

Out of context / learning example - perhaps this is why the idea of a simple platform extension out to the track that's away from the platform at Westbury and calling it "Platform 0" seems to get little traction.   Mind you - the description of any platform extension as "simple" seems way off target when you look at the major works at Trowbridge, at Dilton Marsh and at Freshford ...


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on June 17, 2018, 07:49:32 am
I see what is being said about the West Ealing loop now.

Yes it does seem optimistic to use a loop all day for storing, having said that it seems a waste to have a loop line allocated to only have one freight train for a 20 minute stint all day


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: johoare on June 26, 2018, 02:58:55 pm
The Air con seems to be off more than on on the 387s currently. The carriages are usually about 25 degrees.. In fact someone was taken ill on my train at Southall this morning and I'm sure it's no coincidence that the air con came on (and stayed on for the rest of the journey) at that point.. Any idea why this is? Saving electricity to power the trains to the detriment of the passenger's comfort?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: lordgoata on June 26, 2018, 03:11:50 pm
I purposely wait for the 0644 at Goring now (ignoring the 0628 turbo), just to get a 387 because of the air-con - its definitely been working in the ones I have been getting, both in and out of Maidenhead. Last night someone was wrapped up as it was apparently freezing (personally I thought it was spot on!).

That said, I would welcome 25C, it's 28.7C in my "air conditioned" office ( and no, my office is not a Turbo  :o ;D )....

On the subject of 12-car units - I only found out about the 0652 being 12-car as it was in Goring Gap News this month, I had assumed 12-cars would not run to Didcot, seeing as they are only bothering to extend platforms on the intermediate stations to cope with 8-cars.

But given they can, why do they insist on splitting the 1809 (if I recall) from Maidenhead, when it gets to Reading? It takes them anything from 10 to 20 minutes to split them every time I have used it - it would be so much easier to run to Didcot as-is. Do they really need that many carriages to run back to Paddington at that time of the day (which I assume is why they split), given in that 20 minute wait last night, there were a handful of 387's running back that way anyway??


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: johoare on June 26, 2018, 03:33:29 pm
I must be getting on the wrong trains then   ;D

You win.. My "Air conditioned" office is currently 28.5 (hence me carrying a thermometer with me at all times) ::) ;D


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: lordgoata on June 26, 2018, 03:45:45 pm
It could just be a case of being in the wrong area - couple of weeks ago one of the 387's was routed into platform 1 at Maidenhead, as there was already a late running Reading stopper in Platform 3. Due to the late announcement and utter chaos of everyone moving from platform 3 to 1 (and having to use the barrier until staff got the message!) as the passengers from the train were trying to get down the stairs, I had to dive in the doors near the middle, and walk down to the front carriage.

There were noticeable spots of very chilled air, and other spots of warm air as I walked through (even within the same carriage). I rarely do that, so not sure if that is normal or just happened to be that particular service, but might be worth taking a wander to see if there is anywhere cooler.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Adelante_CCT on June 27, 2018, 02:23:26 am
Quote
That said, I would welcome 25C

So would I, 42.9 and 42.8 have been reached in the past two days. So much so our fire alarm went off Monday as the heat detectors in the pitch of the roof were activated. These have now been changed for higher temperature ones so fingers crossed it won't happen again. (Although being forced to evacuate outside was at least refreshing for a moment)


I should point out I work in a factory, not in a nice 'air conditioned office' nor on a stuffy turbo  :)



Quote
, why do they insist on splitting the 1809 (if I recall) from Maidenhead, when it gets to Reading? It takes them anything from 10 to 20 minutes to split them every time I have used it - it would be so much easier to run to Didcot as-is. Do they really need that many carriages to run back to Paddington at that time of the day (which I assume is why they split),

Both the rear 4 carriages on the 17:48 and 18:19 from Paddington (18:09/18:39 off Maidenhead) go straight to Reading Depot and not back to Paddington


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: lordgoata on June 27, 2018, 08:06:44 am
So would I, 42.9 and 42.8 have been reached in the past two days. So much so our fire alarm went off Monday as the heat detectors in the pitch of the roof were activated. These have now been changed for higher temperature ones so fingers crossed it won't happen again. (Although being forced to evacuate outside was at least refreshing for a moment)


I should point out I work in a factory, not in a nice 'air conditioned office' nor on a stuffy turbo  :)

Stuff that!


Quote
Both the rear 4 carriages on the 17:48 and 18:19 from Paddington (18:09/18:39 off Maidenhead) go straight to Reading Depot and not back to Paddington

Ah, thanks for that. I still think its daft with the amount of time it takes, but hey-ho what do I know!


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ITGuy on June 28, 2018, 08:05:44 pm
The 0733 from Maidenhead was 12 carriages this morning. Almost made up for the late arrival at Maidenhead. Late arrival at Paddington is the norm.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 20, 2018, 03:59:14 pm
It is annoying when GWR are running 8 carriage consists but STILL refuse to open the doors of the rear most due to short platforms - even then the platforms at Hayes are no longer 'short.'

As of next Monday the ASDO (Automatic Selective Door Opening) system is being updated so, finally, all doors on 8-car trains will be opened at Burnham, Hayes & Harlington, Southall, West Ealing and Acton Main Line.

Better operationally as well as reducing the number of annoying announcements on train about where you are and where you need to be to get off.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: bobm on May 19, 2019, 08:13:32 am
Ignoring the fact this thread probably needs moving as 387s now operate to Didcot and Newbury.... they also reach Swindon (although not in service).

Since the new year up to four trains have been stabled overnight at Cocklebury sidings to the east of Swindon station.

The evenings are (just) light enough now to see them arrive at the station before going into the sidings.

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/swi3871.jpg)

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/swi3872.jpg)

So obviously drivers have the route knowledge to reach Swindon.  I wonder if any of these will ever operate in service from Swindon?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on May 19, 2019, 08:19:53 am
8-cars noted operating some raceday specials at Newbury yesterday.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: grahame on May 19, 2019, 08:28:25 am
So obviously drivers have the route knowledge to reach Swindon.  I wonder if any of these will ever operate in service from Swindon?

The draft timetable I have from December 2019 appears to include a morning starter from Swindon to London  ;D


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on May 20, 2019, 04:21:32 pm
It is annoying when GWR are running 8 carriage consists but STILL refuse to open the doors of the rear most due to short platforms - even then the platforms at Hayes are no longer 'short.'

As of next Monday the ASDO (Automatic Selective Door Opening) system is being updated so, finally, all doors on 8-car trains will be opened at Burnham, Hayes & Harlington, Southall, West Ealing and Acton Main Line.

Better operationally as well as reducing the number of annoying announcements on train about where you are and where you need to be to get off.

On an 8 car 387 from Reading to Pangbourne this afternoon, but rather surprisingly the platform extension on the DR is not yet in use, although it was finished and all temporary barriers removed weeks ago.  Stop Board is still in old position (which Driver stopped at) and short platform announcements made on the approach.  Are we still waiting for ASDO updates west of Reading?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 20, 2019, 04:37:12 pm
Are we still waiting for ASDO updates west of Reading?

I believe so.  Last week, the extensions at Goring and Tilehurst had still to be finished, so it will wait until all four are ready.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on May 21, 2019, 12:21:17 pm
Tilehurst must be nearly there - it looks physically finished.

This morning 2P32 1003 Didcot – Padd, which is normally a 8 car 387, was a 6 car Turbo (including a 166 with first class).  I think at least 1 similar 387 diagram (well 387 until last week) was being covered by a Turbo yesterday.

Probably on Bedwyns until last week, and now being used to release 387’s for Heathrow Express modifications?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 21, 2019, 09:23:19 pm
Tilehurst must be nearly there - it looks physically finished.

The main line platforms at both Goring and Tilehurst looked to need work doing to finish them off last time I checked, so it will have to wait until all extensions are complete.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: eightonedee on May 23, 2019, 10:10:49 pm
Noticed this morning, and still present this evening on my first day back at work after holiday - 3 or 4 Electrostars at the eastern end of the Reading depot sidings in new Heathrow Express colours (silver with grey and mauve/purple swirly stripes, as far as I could see rushing past).

Still no sign of the 769s.......


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on May 24, 2019, 01:29:11 pm
I saw 2 sets of HEX-liveried 387's at the east end of Reading depot this morning, 387 130 and 387 140.  They look very smart in their new livery, and looking though the windows you can see there have been mods inside.

Also noticed 4 or 5 319's, which seems more than you need for depot staff familiarisation and driver training.  Given the non-appearance of any 769's and the apparent shortage of 387's, with turbos and 4 car 387's taking over what were previously 8 car services, I wonder if 319's may be pressed into service soon.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: bobm on May 24, 2019, 05:21:22 pm
Far from a perfect photo - against the sun and a dirty IET window - but for the record...

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/387hth.jpg)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: onthecushions on June 20, 2019, 09:06:56 pm

Is there a good reason why 1R06, the 1757 Paddington to Reading is/was still a turbo, today Thursday 20 June?

My wife was not impressed with my  praise of electrification, as we passed countless new EMU's both Crossrail and 387's, quietly vegetating in sidings along the way of our cramped noisy unit.

OTC



Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: grahame on June 20, 2019, 09:21:58 pm

Is there a good reason why 1R06, the 1757 Paddington to Reading is/was still a turbo, today Thursday 20 June?


Lot of old stuff around today

7 a.m. Old dog, new angle
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/20190620_am.jpg)

7 p.m. 2nd oldest dmu on GWR?
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/20190620_pm.jpg)


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 20, 2019, 09:35:38 pm

Is there a good reason why 1R06, the 1757 Paddington to Reading is/was still a turbo, today Thursday 20 June?

My wife was not impressed with my  praise of electrification, as we passed countless new EMU's both Crossrail and 387's, quietly vegetating in sidings along the way of our cramped noisy unit.

Basically the odd Turbo operated services cover for 387s away for the Heathrow Air conversions. 

Very few 387s are left loitering in sidings throughout the peak times, you may have spotted a 12-car formation in West Ealing sidings, but that comes out at 18:18 empty to Paddington to form the 18:42 to Reading, so they're not vegetating.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: ellendune on June 20, 2019, 10:10:51 pm
Basically the odd Turbo operated services cover for 387s away for the Heathrow Air conversions. 

But I thought the 387's going to Heathrow services were surplus because of extra 800's?


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 20, 2019, 10:26:30 pm
Basically the odd Turbo operated services cover for 387s away for the Heathrow Air conversions. 

But I thought the 387's going to Heathrow services were surplus because of extra 800's?

In a roundabout way they are.  The 17:18 Oxford used to be a 6-car Turbo and is now an IET.  The 17:57 to Reading used to be a 387 and is now a 6-car Turbo.  Net result two 387 trains can be released for conversion.  Come December, both the IET and Turbo probably won't be needed for those diagrams as the 17:57 (and many others) will be operated by TfL Rail and the equivalent to the 17:18 can then become a 12-car 387.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: onthecushions on June 20, 2019, 11:11:21 pm

 The 17:57 to Reading used to be a 387 and is now a 6-car Turbo. 


There were very many 345's quietly enjoying the sunshine.

OTC


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 20, 2019, 11:42:26 pm
Well...yes, there would be.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: onthecushions on June 21, 2019, 09:15:41 am

Pardon my naivety but if the 1757 can be operated with a 345 in December, why not in June? I'm sure that our fellows further West would appreciate those two Turbo's throughout the Summer months. Aren't the 345's in use out of Liverpool St?

Perhaps TOC's need fining for working diesels wholly under the wires - but its probably DfT's fault ultimately.

OTC


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: Noggin on June 25, 2019, 05:21:45 pm

Pardon my naivety but if the 1757 can be operated with a 345 in December, why not in June? I'm sure that our fellows further West would appreciate those two Turbo's throughout the Summer months. Aren't the 345's in use out of Liverpool St?

Perhaps TOC's need fining for working diesels wholly under the wires - but its probably DfT's fault ultimately.

OTC

Because the 345's, their crews and their maintenance facilites are all part of TfL rail. GWR are contracted to have the job, crew it and take the revenue until Dec 2019.

It probably could be sorted if there was a massive issue, like a fleet-wide fault was found and the 387s all had to be pulled from service. But there doesn't really seem to be a compelling argument in the meantime.   



Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: onthecushions on June 25, 2019, 10:29:52 pm

But a number of 387's have been pulled. I appreciate that the loose ends have been tied up from the operating and contractual point of view but that hasn't put the customer experience first.

Surely there was enough notice of the 387 conversions to have enough trained drivers and 345's to operate Reading stoppers by now. If it can be done on the Eastern then why not the Western?

I shall just have to wait for Christmas!

OTC


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 25, 2019, 10:45:59 pm
I think the one or two Turbo diagrams a day, using (let's face it) trains which were a mainstay on the route for 18 years, for a temporary period for six months until December when TfL Rail will take them over, is a better idea than attempting to alter long established contracts changeover dates.  They managed it on the Eastern because they stuck to the plan of TfL Rail taking over from Greater Anglia in 2015, so there was no need to amend any contracts.


Title: Re: Class 387 coming to Thames Valley - ongoing discussion
Post by: onthecushions on June 26, 2019, 12:45:18 pm

I happily accede to your informed and invariably wise opinion.

My idle thoughts were only with those having another summer of Pacers etc.

OTC





This page is printed from the "Coffee Shop" forum at http://gwr.passenger.chat which is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway. Views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that content provided contravenes our posting rules ( see http://railcustomer.info/1761 ). The forum is hosted by Well House Consultants - http://www.wellho.net