Great Western Coffee Shop

Not been a good couple of nights for the sleepers.

On Thursday into Friday the Up sleeper needed fitters attention at Plymouth due to brake problems, having skipped stops in Cornwall.  It couldn't be fixed and was replaced an HST for the rest of the journey.  This meant one of the early services from Plymouth to London was cancelled.

The stock was worked on at Laira and left for London mid-afternoon but failed again shortly after leaving Plymouth and had to be hauled back to the depot.  Therefore tonight's service from London will be an HST. 

Meanwhile last night's down sleeper needed attention from the men with spanners in Devon due to brake problems but did make it to Cornwall with only a 10 minute delay.

I am using the sleepers twice in the next three weeks so that is bound to be a jinx!

Problems last night too - sounds like westbound ran with a normal HST set so no beds, and eastbound had mechanical problems and a pretty hefty delay.

57s... 57s... 57s...  :-\

Problems again for the westbound sleeper early Monday morning.  The service came to a stand at Exeter St Thomas and had to be taken back to St Davids where it terminated.

The up is starting from Plymouth at 2355 tonight.

Hauled by 2 Power Cars, I believe.

They really do need to look at getting some new motive power for the sleeper service as this lack of realiabibity could do damage to the good reputation of the Night Riveria in the long term if not sorted soon.

Reliability seems to be a growing issue across all FGW services at the moment, there seems to be more cancellations/short formations due to "train faults" than ever before.......I've seen some pictures on Twitter of the sleeper at Plymouth last night with the 2 power cars - seems to have been more trainspotters than passengers on the platform! Quite an unusual sight I guess.

On the brighter side... At least everyone on board could have had some form of lie in on a Monday Morning; D :D :P

More problems today. 57303 was declared a failiure at Long Rock upon arrival after working the down sleeper last night. Looking at fixing it in time for tonight's service.

Another issue last night.  The down sleeper experienced loco problems around Swindon.  However, perhaps anticipating difficulties, there was another loco on the back and that was run round to take the service forward.

It reached Taunton almost an hour late but recovered most of that time by Cornwall.

Again, last night (Thursday) the Penzance - Paddington sleeper failed at Taunton. After some "swapsies" with a loco from the sleeper train going the other way it left Taunton 2 1/2 hours late, avoided Swindon (no comment - see another thread!!)  and arrived in London 1 1/2 hour late

I know - I was on it!!

Actually to be truthful I didn't know.  I woke up just before six to find us on the Berks & Hants line rather than the expected Hullavington/Swindon route.

We left Plymouth with hired in 57303 and 57310 on the front and arrived at Paddington with 57303 replaced by 57603.

Now had a chance to download my camera.

Here was the duo which brought the sleeper in on Friday morning.

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/sleep1912.jpg)

Just thought I would report that for what seems like the first time in a while both sleepers ran on Sunday night without fault and arrived at their destinations bang on time (a rare event for the down sleeper). Let's hope it continues through through to Chrsitmas.

Should still be on time by Paddington?

Now 64 late.

Knock on effect of signalling problems delaying the crew into Penzance rather than a problem with the train this time.

Arrived Paddington at 0459, 24 early.  Late at all intermediate stops, but caught up some time between Reading and Paddington.

Bit of a change for the Down sleeper last night.  Rather than being rescued it was called in to help out after the 23:30 London Paddington to Cardiff service (via Bristol Temple Meads) failed at Slough.

The sleeper called additionally at Slough, Didcot Parkway, Swindon, Chippenham, Bath Spa and Bristol Temple Meads, where coaches were provided onwards toward Cardiff.

It then suffered an air problem in Devon but was only 13 late into Penzance.

That'll probably be the Radon gas ...  :P

For any one who is interested I think 57312 will be on the up sleeper tomorrow correct me if I'm wrong but it will be nice to get pictures of a different loco on the sleeper

It was on the down last night. One of my Flickr contacts pictured it at Plymouth this morning.

Well we'll not often a class 57 comes to the rescue normally needs rescuing itself. but a class 66 on freight failed between par and lostwithiel this afternoon so the 57 from tonight's up sleeper has gone to help! Hmm I wonder will the up sleeper be on time tonight?

I think the plan is for the FGW 57 to push or pull the freight into Par and clear of the mainline.

A 66 is on its way from Westbury to take the train forward.

I wonder if they are both 1Z99.

686N 1629 Goonbarrow Jn to Fowey Dock Carne Point took 1 hour 39 from Par to Lostwithiel and terminated at Lostwithiel. Is that the failed freight service?
No other services in RTT.
1A35 is 50 late. 1C86 lost 80 minutes around Westbury. Guessing that needed rescuing as well?

Edit*** 1C86 went from Westbury to Bristol Temple Meads then down to Taunton causing the delay.

Looks like 1C86 1506 Pad to Pnz has hit both of the failed trains on its journey today. Doh!  ::)

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C20330/2015/01/26/advanced

Yes a second freight failed on the main line between the junctions for Westbury and Frome.

And 1C87 (the 16:06 Pad to Pnz) is now running ahead of it.  Might have been better to wait at Westbury than go round via Bristol, but hindsight is a marvellous thing!

Not only hindsight. You can't keep a train at Westbury indefinitely - there are only three platforms and it might then lead to cancellations because of "congestion caused by earlier delays"  ;)

Looking at rtt I reckon the sleeper will be ten fifteen minuets late leaving penzance as the 57 ain't due back from st blazey until 2150

Spot on!

Nice to see journey check giving and explanation as why it will be running late which is clear and understandable and to the point. Not like this 'train will be starting late due to an earlier broken down train'. Is it me or is journey check explaining problems better now?

Very pessimistic ... I think it may pick up a minute or two there ...

Lets wait and see. It's got leave pz first!!

Did the depot 08 get an outing with the coaches this evening? From RTT it appears the loco went straight to penzance station, so assuming the coaches were there waiting?

Realtimetrains is now showing expected arrival time at paddington as 05:09.

For the record, arrived 05:19 - which is exactly as scheduled in the working timetable.

...........just out of interest, why was a FGW loco used to move a failed freight train, thus jeopardising/delaying passenger services?

Surely freight operators are obliged to have some sort of "rescue" arrangement in place when this happens? What would have happened if the Class 57 had failed as a result? (they often seem to fail without any "help" of this kind!!!)

Pragmatic response I would suggest.  With no other loco nearby it was in FGW's interests to shift the freight as their services were being heavily delayed.

The alternative would have been to sit back, do nothing and wait for the freight to moved by a more distant loco and pick up compensation to pass onto their delayed customers.

I believe a loco was sent from Westbury - although there was a broken down freight in Westbury area too, so not sure if that slowed the freight company response or not. For the Par issue, I believe it was just a case of our loco was the quickest way of getting the freight off of the main line so normal running could be introduced.

It helpfully works both ways, as a 66 has been summoned to rescue the sleeper in the past.  :o

I would be surprised if DBS (the freight company) aren't invoiced by FGW for the use of the locomotive to rescue the freight train.  DBS would have obviously agreed to it beforehand.

There's a video on YouTube if anyone is that interested!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ems9LeMTgE

Regardless of the loco situation, 1C86 is also worked by the sleeper driver/guard from Exeter to PZ, so a delay to this service could also delay the sleeper.

The sleeper failed again tonight on the up got as far as long rock according to journey check. Think it's now normall hst left at 23.30 don't know much more than that but clearly did not get far at all. The only good thing I suppose is that they were not very far from assistance!!

It's being run as a HST.

I can only assume the Sleeper stock was shunted back to Penzance by Long Rock's Class 08 shunter, the punters were turfed out, and the HST that arrived at Penzance from Paddington (1657 ex PAD) at 2321 has been pressed into service. That would explain the 135 minute delay in starting the (not now a) Sleeper from Penzance.

Does now mean that it's likely that either the 0505 or 0541 from Penzance to Paddington on Monday morning will be cancelled, as Long Rock has only two of it's usual three HSTs who bed down for the night.

Yea looks like they may have to toss a coin in the morning and the sleeper stock will need moving as well could be interesting tomorrow as to what plan they come up with

There will doubtless be an ECS move of Sleeper stock sometime during the day.

Neither in the end. The 07:41 is replaced by a three car unit sent from Exeter running from Truro to Bristol Temple Meads where an HST will take over.

Is it three or four HST sets that overnight at Penzance/Long Rock?  There is also the 06:45 to London Paddington to cover.

21:15 Penzance to London Paddington due 05:05
This train has been delayed from Penzance by 135 minutes and is being further delayed at Long Rock.
This is due to a train fault.

....but it was only 28 late by the time it reached London Paddington

8 hours overnight on an HST.......great start to the working week for some!   :(

I can see the point you are making, but slightly overstated.  The HST to form the service did not arrive in Penzance until 23:21 and then left at 23:30 after passengers and crew had been transferred from the sleeper coaches.  I make that six hours.

FGW have said tickets for last night will be valid on the sleeper tonight for those who can delay their plans, which I expect is not many. 

At least a service was run.  I think in many cases where the Caledonian service has problems it is either cancelled outright and you need to find a hotel or a very long journey on a coach is provided.

There were a lot of very unhappy people stranded for hours in the freezing cold at intermediate stations. I'm not sure the vagaries of the Caledonian service will be of interest or consolation to them. The wider impact of the unreliability of this service to the Business community and economy in the Southwest should not be underestimated.

While I agree with your closing comment, you cannot speak as a matter of fact for people you did not see or speak to.  Most berth reservations are at stations with staff and a waiting room, and I would expect those at the small stations either made their way to somewhere like Truro or Plymouth, or gave up and went home.  Not ideal granted.

For the record, the 57 loco was once again the issue.

The replacement HST would have made it RT in Paddington, but was delayed a further 30 minutes in the Newton Abbot area where an engineering possession had to be temporarily handed back for 1A40 to pass through.

.........may not have seen them or spoken to them in person, but I read the comments on FGW's Twitter feed from people stranded in the manner I alluded to, which seems to bear it out.

As an occasional user of the Caledonian (lowland) sleeper, one of the big negatives is the wait until awfully late in the evening for the service to board at Glasgow / Edinburgh after a day's work and an early evening meal. I can't think what would be much more off-putting than a further 2 hours to wait, even if time was made up on the way.

........with the easy availability of flights to/from Glasgow and Edinburgh from all London airports I can't imagine ever being able to justify using the Sleeper for that trip if on business!!!

The Night Rivera (if running!) does bridge the overnight gap in the absence of flights from Devon/Cornwall and gets you into London ready for a day's work (again with the caveat that it's running to plan and you can get a decent kip en route!)

I can't see any ECS stock movement on RTT. I am assuming there was one as otherwise tonights down will be a non starter.

**edit it left long rock at 1027, it needed another loco with it reaching OOC at 1704. I believe 57312 is the dead loco, and was pulled back to OOC dead**

I'm wondering if the rescue loco had worked the down, trying to find if there was another movement for a loco.

RTT will only show trains which have been pre-loaded into the system, so short notice  VSTP trains may not have even been timed.      The loco to work the "Demic" loco and stock up to OOC came down attached to 1C99 last night.

All explained (with photos) here: http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/headlines---latest-reports-and-photographs

Does any one know what's wrong with the failed loco was it a brake problem or did the engine say I don't want to do this tonight and pack up! Will it be a quick fix or long term project. And who will foot the bill FGW or DRS as it is one of there locos

It's five, the 05.05, 05.41, 06.45, 07.41 and 08.44 are all booked off Longrock. There's also a 10.00 but that comes off the 07.02 Plymouth.

I'm a bit surprised that it was decided to wait around two hours and then rapidly turn around the HST off the 16.57 Pad - PZ (which presumably needed cleaning etc). On Sunday evenings there's already 3 HSTs out at Longrock before the sleeper is even due to leave, the first of which arrives at Longrock around 6pm. (The 11.57,12.57 & 14.57 Pad-PZ)  :o

Down Sleeper failed last night (Tues 02/02/2015) at Trowbridge. Rescued by Up Sleeper to Westbury, with initial plan to send a HST from Bristol for onward travel from Westbury.

Service got going again though and is running some 1^ hours late. Calls at Liskeard, Bodmin Parkway and Lostwithiel are being skipped.

I've just got the 0713 from Redruth, down sleepers currently showing 1 hr 6 late on the boards

(posted from fgw WiFi, it is rather quick, I am impressed)

.....in some ways a positive thing if you were getting off the sleeper at Plymouth, being woken up and turfed off at 0730-ish a great deal more civilised than the usual 0530! At least there'll be a chance of getting breakfast somewhere! (Cap'n Jaspers should be open by now!!!)  :)

Cap'n jaspers now that's the best idea so far this morning!!

Not sure whether the pax had already been woken at Westbury and transferred to a HST. Anyone know for definite what ran from Westbury onward?

According to the Twitter account of ModelRailwayCorp it was replaced by an HST formed of 43159 / OC40 / 43137.

https://twitter.com/MRailwayCORP/status/562553378174427136/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/MRailwayCORP/status/562553378174427136/photo/1)

Another set of bleary eyed Sleeper passengers then.

The reliability of the service really is at an unacceptably poor level. I'm just surprised it's not made the media yet.

This 'adds up' - one of the early Bristol to Paddington HST services this morning was cancelled "due to train fault". Me thinks train fault on the sleeper with the HST ending up at the other end of the line!

It'll make the media when enough people stop using it due to its unreliability to the extent that it becomes unviable to continue the service and it stops..........who knows, maybe that wouldn't upset FGW too much?

It's beginning to seem that it's more trouble than its worth, especially when the frequent switching of units results in the cancellation of peak trains the following morning (particularly those from Penzance/Plymouth to Paddington), which inconveniences far more people than the removal of the Sleeper.

Suggests that no journalists based in Plymouth or Cornwall ever use the sleeper.

Yes, the 0712 (0800 off BRI) from Taunton was the unlucky one.

Make it a dedicated franchise like the Caledonian Sleeper.

Since the appalling unreliability of the sleeper is largely caused by locomotive failures, would it not be possible to hire either something more reliable, or possibly to use two.
Having two locos on the train when one should suffice sounds extravagant but might be cheaper than the endless delays ?

Possibly heritage diesels could be used ? these don't have an unblemished record but should be fine if double headed.

I don't think it's a big enough operation to be a dedicated franchise - perhaps including it within the Caledonian Sleeper franchise (separately branded and staffed, but using shared modern diesel locomotives, carriages and on-board supplies) might make sense, but to my slight surprise I've never heard that mentioned as a possibility.

I wonder how easy it would have been to hire in a 66 from Westbury to PZ to assist the 57? At least sleeper passengers would have been able to stay put and the resulting HST cancellations wouldn't have been necessary.

As far as I can see there are 6 options for the future of the sleeper (In no particular order or desirability):

1. Sort out the 57's
2. Use 67's
3  Use 68's
4. Rewire the sleeper and use HST power cars
5. Introduce later/earlier services to/from London and the Southwest and scrap the sleeper altogether. If you alienate enough sleeper passengers with HST substitutes and delays etc then this option becomes easier to implement.
6. Something else e.g other Diesels

Sunday night's failure could have a silver lining as a lot of people use the up sleeper on sunday night to get back to work in London (including MP's). Once 'important people' start getting affected then questions might start getting asked.
(I know, I know everyones' important!)
 
Ironically, quite recently the PM was at Longrock depot talking about the planned refurbishment of the sleeper stock and a proposed 'new depot'. Unfortunately however refurbished stock is not much good if it's sat in a siding while pax are on an HST.

I remember sleeper failures occasionally happening years ago but there were more locos around to rescue it (some good runs behind a 50 or a pair of them) and HST substitutions were unheard of.  :o

So what's the plan for tonight anyone know?

Both sets are at OOC. as of 1600 the ECS hadn't left OOC, so an on time running is rather slim. There is an extra HST set in Cornwall though from the set that took over at Westbury last night doesn't appear to have gone anywhere yet.

The current plan is for the sleeper stock to start at Plymouth with a HST covering the Penzance to Plymouth part.

Was booked to run as 3A40 leaving OOC at 1350 with 57306 + 57602
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O70498/2015/02/03/advanced

A38/M5/M4

Not good, I fear for the future of this service. Perhaps a coincidence, but the early morning Flybe return flights from Newquay - Gatwick - Newquay and Exeter - London City - Exeter seem to be much busier of late, with over 80% of seats filled on Monday and again tomorrow.

Don't go to sleep taking that option though, unless you've hired a driver.

I wonder if Stagecoach have investigated running their Megabus Gold Sleeper coaches from the far west of Cornwall.

Hmm will have to wait and see what happens later no notification on journey check yet I would laugh if it was a dmu to exter or even Bristol. But surely that would never happen right? I have been proved wrong before!! So won't be placing any bets

It didn't leave OOC on time. Realtime Trains showing it left OOC at 1850, 300 late and expected in Plymouth at 2311. Real time trains is still showing it going all the way to Penzance to arrive at Penzance 0101, which is by all reports not happening.

Guessing the sleeper has started with a hst as it left pz on time and sleeper set in exter now so will probs change in plymouth if my theory is right

Of course the level of service is not good enough, however the re-wiring to run with HST power-cars would require the mass cancellation of the service while this was happening, as you cannot have a mix of re-wired and non re-wired coaches running in the same set.  So, do you think the service could survive a good month or so of permanent HST replacement?

I promise you, spending your social time reading FGW's Twitter feed is a proven fast way to a nervous breakdown  ;D.

I thought it was a comedy script. There is a woman on facebook who complains twice daily that her train was 1, 2 or 3 minutes late. She even moans when it's on time.

Back to topic...
How simple would it be to turn HST carriages into beds when they aren't needed anymore when electrification is finished?

Look at what you can do from the outset - might look familiar.

http://www.nswtrainlink.info/your_journey/fleet/xpt (http://www.nswtrainlink.info/your_journey/fleet/xpt)

Rode this from Melbourne to Sydney overnight. 

Anything is possible...

It is? Maybe I should be off of work then ;)

Do the carriages have to be re-wired to be compatible with the Class 43s? Can it not be done the other way round? Replace the three phase auxilliary alternator in the HST power cars with a 1000v supply. HSTs already generate DC current for the traction motors. It can't be beyond the wit of man to re-purpose the electric generation. Even at the cost of less power going to the traction motors. Hauling Sleeper stock won't require 125mph running.

I do have say though, I'm not completely conversant with how the Class 43's prime movers generate and distribute their electricity.

A retro alternative would be to fit each individual Sleeper carriage with batteries and dynamos.

Another alternative is to convert a few Mk3s to generator vans similar to those used by Iarnr^d ^ireann in their (now retired) BR Mk3 derived fleet.

But the best answer is, first, some new locos, and second, new rolling stock.

Yours is one voice of calm and reason in the gathering storm, Ollie.  ;) :D ;D

Even with the constraint of "ancient or modern only", it wouldn't require total replacement for any period.

a) One set at a time, so continue to run a full sleeper from Penzance on Sunday, Tuesday and Thursday nights and from Paddington on Monday, Wednesday and Friday (or the other way round if I've picked the quieter or the two diagrams there)

b) With the second set, there would be the option of HST substitution (bearing in mind the effect on other rotas) or running a half length sleeper, enhanced with spare carriages (are there any?  Any chance to borrow from the Caledonian Sleeper?)

Alternative would be to run 2/3 length sleepers, converting the carriages 1/3 at a time.

The sleeper has indeed survived being off for couple of months during Dawlish - of course I'm not privy to the damage done, nor the damage that would be done during a conversion, but I don't see it would be as severe as "no sleeper at all for x months". Seasonallity would help - "This is a quiet time of year" said the conductor on my (rather busy!) local train a few days ago, and I imagine the sleeper 'suffers' similarly?

No need to borrow once the new stock for the Caledonian is delivered, but a shorter-term solution is probably needed.

I don't know for sure, but I believe there is an option to do it the other way round - the issue then being you have dedicated power-cars for the service.  Power-cars still break down, so if you are not tied to a specific pair of them, you have more flexibility.

My late grandfather was seconded from BR to help with the introduction of the XPTs (the timetabling and service pattern in particular, I think). As an eight-year old one of my prized possessions was a little rotating cardboard dial that showed off the new journey times. I didn't know whether the trains were faster or slower than the previous ones, but I did know that Wagga Wagga was a brilliant placename.

When I passed OOC at around 8am this morning, the sleeper stock was being backed into the depot by a "Northern Belle" brown loco (class 47?).

There are 4 'Northern Belle' Pullman liveried diesel locos I think. Two are class 47s and the other two are class 57/3 'Thunderbirds', same as the DRS blue locos which have supplemented FirstGW's own pool of 4 class 57/6 locos.

57312,, here is a link to it having failed on Sunday night (not my video)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDxCfZ2N6c0

What is the difference in the wiring between the sleepers and HST's?

Not sure about the wiring, but I am pretty sure the voltage is different.

Agree: I'm sure it's been discussed on the Coffee Shop forum before (I can't find it at the moment, due to our 'search' software being discomnadgerated  ::) ), but it's because the two are currently completely incompatible.  ;) :D ;D

HSTs have up to 450V AC transferred through three-phase cables (hence why you shouldn't plug your phones into those luggage rack sockets at 125mph)..

Sleeper has 1000V DC, which is wired differently.

2 power cars could haul the sleeper every night, but the 57 needs to be running to provide the train supply.

I take what I said about the lightbulb back...  ::) ::) ;D

HST power cars deliver 3 phase AC current at, I believe 415v, direct to the various systems (aircon, lighting, heating) that the HST Mk3s use. Loco hauled Mk3s receive 1000v (not sure whether AC or DC, I suspect the latter) from the loco, converted to usable voltage by motor generators on each carriage to provide the 'hotel' power.

I think. And stand to be corrected by anyone more knowledgeable.

Then rewire them so that the motor generators deliver 3 phase 415V, with all the hotel ssytems working at 230V AC (i.e a single phase of the 415V).  Include the wiring for a 415V through cable.  All the carriages are returned to service operating from the 1000V supply. 

When the changeover is made remove the 1000V jumpers, disconnect the generators from the 415V main and fit the new 415V jumpers.  The Motor generators and 1000V wiring can then be removed at a convenient time if necessary.   

The first thing you need is the control cables that connect the two power cars.

Then 415/240V AC (or 400/230 V)  looks a good choice for a power, as it is what the world outside the railway works off. But the on-board equipment won't have been designed for that, which will make it more difficult. Heaters for 850 V can't easily bye run off lower voltages unless they have as lower-voltage elements wired in series, and then it depends. Lights are usually 120 V, and need to be run via the back-up battery float-charge system. Anything than can run off AC can be fed by a transformer, but the prevalence of DC in train supplies means that's less common than you would expect.

But really, is is so difficult to find a locomotive that works - reliably? There's no new technology, uniquely demanding environment, or other features of this sleeper service that make it harder to meet than on other railways, are there?

But really, is is so difficult to find a locomotive that works - reliably? There's no new technology, uniquely demanding environment, or other features of this sleeper service that make it harder to meet than on other railways, are there?
[/quote]

.....hear hear.

Surprising news of the week.... Tonight's down hauled by Pendennis Castle is running on time!

And the up was early to ladbroke grove then 8 late in to padd

Apparently, it is rather difficult to find a diesel locomotive for passenger that works in this country. The only diesel LHCS fleet that appears in the Modern Railways 'Golden Spanner' contests is Chiltern's 67+mrk3+DVT sets, and they are bottom of the INTERCITY table, although in the latest figures did acheive a 32.7% improvement in reliability from the previous year. According to a topic on RailUK forum, Arriva Trains Wales had a spate of failures with thier 67-powered Y Gerallt Gymro service a while back. I suggested that perhaps the small fleet means the maintenance staff take a long time to get to know the stock well.

If you want to blame the class of locomotive used, there are not many other options other than old locomotives similar to the 57s used now. I think the only post-privatisation diesel locos suitable for passenger service are the class 67s and class 68s. Of course there are lots of relatively new class 66 locomotives, but using them for the sleeper would have the same result as using class 43s (IC125 power cars), no power to the coaches (for a different reason, class 43s supply incompattible power, but 66s won't provide power at all since they are freight locos).

If size of fleet is the problem, perhaps allocating a load of 57s and introducing some daytime LHCS services to free up DMUs for other parts of the franchise will get the maintenance teams up to speed and improve reliablity.

I saw the down sleeper last night pass through Twyford and was surprised to see it top and tailed with a DRS 57 on the back. Are they now basing a spare 57 at Penzance to deal with failures?

A fitter travels with the sleeper every night.  The 57 on the back is basically a mobile source of spares should..... when the front one fails. 

What a desperate way to operate.

Would you rather they don't try at all? Just leave it where it fails?

I really can't see how that would make much of a difference.  You might get a slight improvement in Class 57 reliability, but because you'd be running more trains with them, the reliability and resilience of other parts of the network would suffer.  The Class 57 are essentially 15 year old pieces of equipment bolted on to a 50 year old bodyshell and basic design.  They've pretty much had their day!  Ditto using HST power cars which would be at best a stop-gap measure that might mean they soldier on for a few more years, but they're also well past their sell-by date (personally I don't see them staying on the Cornish services beyond a couple of years before Class 222s arrive).  I don't want to sound too negative, but I worry about the reliability of the re-engined Class 73s to be used on the diesel sections of the Caledonian Sleeper services for the same reasons.

The Class 67 would be a much better bet, though they haven't exactly covered themselves in glory reliability wise either - though much better than the 57s of late and the figures are much better when they're not being used on push-pull services I suspect.  The perfect solution (if enough of them were to become available, via the current order or an addition to the current order) would be the new Class 68s - assuming they prove their reliability.

All of this only goes to prove the vulnerability of using a single power source, when there aren't anywhere near the number of rescue options there used to be, which I've been banging on about on here for years!   ;)

Why not take the approach formerly used on the Scottish sleepers in using an otherwise redundant loco (engine & gen set ok, ETH fitted, but no longer suitable/required for providing traction, a class 57 perhaps?!) to act as a mobile generator for train supply, and use a modern, reliable freight loco for traction purposes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_25#Train_Heating_Units (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_25#Train_Heating_Units)

The additional drawbar weight would not be an issue for a heavy freight unit such as a class 66?

Ah, the good old ETHEL's!  ;)

Yup, and they worked it seems. Quite an effective solution to a shortage of ETH equipped traction. Even an old parcel/goods van (or an old MotorRail van? Plenty of those lying around...) with a suitable gen set installed would do the job, not sure why no-one has considered any of these options, or maybe they have and they're too difficult in some way or 'computer says no' type of thing?

I'm not a mechinical engineer, but if new is the answer to reliability, then provided the 73s have all internal components replaced, leaving just the bits which are basicaly just lumps metal (body panels, axles etc.) then, assuming the metal isn't all rusted or about to crack under the strain of many years work, I cannot see why they shouldn't be any more of problem than 68s. Same applies to 57s if they actualy had everything serious (again excluding body panels etc.) replaced.

Makes sense, VT have their (class 57!) Thunderbirds stationed arround the WCML, I'm aware of no such thing for the GWML (or on the ECML or MML?). Why no Thunderbirds on the Great Western?

There might be if nobody had to pay for them.

You could use 2x HST PC's for that, as long the 57 is working well enough to provide train supply.  Although, I think you would also need a driver in the 57 at all times, doubling the driver cost.

  Perhaps FGW should take a radical approach with the sleepers, and do away with them altogether.

 If reliability and cost are major issues, I think it is unfair on customers to play 'Russian Roulette' on what
 should be a premium service.
 Years ago I seem to remember you where able to buy Rail/hotel packages  (Golden Rail, I think).
 So maybe unless the problems with 'sleepers' are resolved, this is a option FGW might consider.

Yes, I suppose you could panic and try and pull the plug on a much loved and socially important service and risk the reputation of your business even further down in Devon and Cornwall - not that the DfT would probably let you of course.

Let's hope these issues are resolved, both the temporary reliability of the engines, and a more long-term strategy to improve the resilience and quality of the service, before too many of the regulars vote with their feet and stop using it.  On time arrivals (both trains double headed) last night I see.

If the first para is true, the second won't happen, however bad it gets. There'll be lotsa of complaints however, of course.
If the latter does happen, then the former isn't true....if its that important, pax will go on using it, however delayed.

It's suprising how many enfusiests travel on the sleeper think there would be uproar from them if fgw pulled the plug I met a guy once who travelled down from Scotland just to travel up to pad on the sleeper!

A couple of probably-stupid questions:

(1) Whenever I see pictures of American freight trains, there's always 3-4 locomotives at the front. UK (and European) freights always seem to have only one. Is this because (a) American freight trains are big and need all of that power to move them, or (b) American freight locomotives are unreliable and there's several of them just in case?

(2) Why are there all these different voltages on railway rolling stock? There's been mention here of 1000v power supplies, 120v DC lighting circuits and 850v heaters. Given that the world (well, except for the American bit) works on 240v AC (or 415v AC in its three-phase version), wouldn't it make sense for the railway to do the same?

Virgin Trains no longer make routine use of Class 57/3 'Thunderbirds'. All have been de-named and re-liveried. All 16 have found other homes. 12 are with Direct Rail Services in their 'Compass' liveries (with a couple in Riviera Trains' 'Northern Belle' livery and one in Network Rail yellow). The other 4 are with West Coast Railways, 3 in WCRC Maroon and one in plain blue.

I suspect that would be the main source of any uproar that ensues, other than token protests from local politicians - however I think Chris B has hit the nail on the head with his last post.

I think you will find the answer is (a).


A very good question.  I suspect some of it might date back to early days and have dragged on because they wanted compatibility with earlier stock. 

57312 is on a rugby special tonight. Let's hope it performs better for the rugby.

Nonsense.  I've met plenty of politicians on-board the sleeper from the SW who regularly use and value the service.  Remember when the service was under threat a few years back - many people complaining and campaigning - it wasn't a few spotters crying with their notepads out.

Just because the timings don't work with your life does not mean they do not work for others.

I'm sure the current situation of multiple 57s, HST double PC's and random 57s turning up from other companies will naturally bring out more spotters than usual.

.....let's hope it performed better than Wales!  ;D

I am aware that the 'Thunderbirds' have been re-liveried and that all but one have lost their International Rescue nameplates. However, I believe VT contracted DRS to continue providing the Thunderbird service and indeed, according to this issue (http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nw1502a.htm) of the north Wales rail weekly online newsletter (nwnews (http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm)), "DRS continue to provide a 'Thunderbird' loco at Polmadie, Crewe, Stafford, Preston and Euston ready for use in any rescue missions".

EDIT: Added link to relevant issue of North Wales newsletter, now that the 'nwnwews' link points to a newer issue.

No problem, Rhydgaled: their website allows access to archive issues (http://www.nwrail.org.uk/archive.cgi) as well. See the edition dated 2 February 2015.  ;)

You are correct. I should have been clearer that Virgin no longer use all 16 'Thunderbirds' and it is no longer they that lease them directly. The lessee of the remaining Class 57/3s used for occasional 'Thunderbird' duties is DRS. And yes, 57307 retains her 'Lady Penelope' nameplate alongside a unique DRS 'Compass' livery with a very visible warning:

(Unsure of the copyright here, so only a link to the image) http://www.nwrail.org.uk/mr-57307-Crewe--Feb9-compos.jpg

DRS information on the 'Thunderbirds': http://www.directrailservices.com/virgin-thunderbirds.html

Up Sleeper this morning failed in the Thatcham area with a hot axle box on 57306.  Train limped to Reading at 10mph where it terminated. 
Would imagine the stock will be stuck in a platform at Reading for a while.

Confirmed - spotted at 7:45am in Platform 6 - presumably moved there to minimise main line disruption during the rush hour

Do you mean Platform 6? (An SE platform).  Saw it in 8 this morning 0645 with a loco on the country end.  Train looked dead and emptied.

I did a double take - as I first thought it was 8 - but then noticed it was behind the shortened end of P7. So that's 6 ?

But I was on an HST moving through RDG at good speed - so it was brief. Maybe my aging brain and failing eyes were not fully functional (it is pre-coffee)

RTT would suggest my coffee denied body is in the wrong. Nothing moving through P8 this AM at RDG that I can see.

Making it as far as reading sounds an improvement on recent times!  ::)

It was stuck on P8 this morning @ 07:30 with no power car on the country end. There was a non-HST power car (sorry I'm not a rail expert) on the London end and a few people in high vis gear standing around the door.

Stock has now been moved out to the east of Reading. Another Sunday night service disrupted again.  :(

This was finally rescued around 12:30, by an FGW 57 from what I've been told.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O72328/2015/02/09/advanced

Not quite. The failed 57 is still residing outside Reading as of 1530. All coaches have gone though.

If they've left the failed 57 behind sounds like that will be a wheel skate job sometime in the small hours of the morning, 10mph max back to Old Oak.

The rest of the sleeper stock was hauled back by 57602.

It was indeed - here it is passing Southall just after 2pm.

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/5z40.jpg)

The original loco (57306) was in Reading Traincare depot when I passed at 4pm.

HST "sleeper" tonight then?

Not necessarily - the coaches seem fine and there was obviously a working 57 at the London end.  It may however need the Old Oak Common 08 shunter to make an outing to drag the stock into Paddington.

Why don't FGW just admit that the 57's are rubbish and not fit for purpose?

Surely the sensible solution is to use 67's instead.

None of that DRS rubbish tonight, it's a FGW 57 booked to work the sleeper to Penzance so it should make it without a hitch!!

And 57604 on the up, should be a good night!

57604 did a trouble free ECS penzance to Laira and back today

From September 2015 it is looking very likely that the sleepers will cease to be hauled by Class 57s and will be replaced by pairs of Class 67s. The delay in introducing them will allow traction training to be completed at the necessary depots.

If their like the Chiltern ones (or indeed *are* the Chiltern ones as they're giving theirs up for 68s very soon), heaven help the sleepers. Chiltern were getting failures at least weekly, and that was only on 2 hour journeys)

They will be working in pairs on our sleepers! 

Discussions have been ongoing for several months.

And if one fails, the other can only pull 5 coaches.....

Eh?  I've seen them pulling 12-coach trains before - the acceleration isn't up to Chiltern Mainline demands when you get to that length, but they're more than capable of hauling a train to the rather leisurely schedule of the sleeper.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zb432U6Ji7o  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zb432U6Ji7o)

Eh? A single 67 can pull a whole IC225 set (nine mk4s, a mk4 DVT and a class 91 electric locomotive), see this (not my pic) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/75784477@N08/15369112790) and this (also not my pic) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/75784477@N08/15355501228).

Chiltern won't put more than 5 coaches + DVT up on one....

Because of their rate of acceleration.  That's why I made my comment them being perfectly adequate for the sleeper schedule with its couple of extra coaches.

They've been to,d the 67s will work in pairs, that could mean double headed or it could mean top n tailed.  I would think they will top and tail otherwise you'll need another loco at Penzance & Paddington.
Top n tail will probably mean one less driver required to shunt from the depots as well.

II said:


I am wondering if that would still hold true over the Devon banks? I assume the loco-doubling will address that concern and also provide some resilience - provided that one loco doesn't fail with the banks still to be climbed!

Especially in leaf fall season. I don't know prone the Class 67 is to slipping.

How old are the class 67s?

15 years - introduced 1999 and 2000

Youngsters!  :)

Class 67^s have a more powerful engine installed than Class 57^s, but of course they have less adhesion because of their weight and they are geared for 125mph against 95 mph for Class 57/3.  One could question why you put 125 mph locos on sleeper trains, but maybe they will be regeared.

Worth noting that a Class 67 has almost twice the continuous tractive effort (ie drawbar pull) of a Class 43 HST Power Car. So they aren^t complete wimps. 

Because there is nothing else available and they can't continue with the 57's given their reliability.  When it comes to overhauling the 57's they had to go to South Africa for replacement wheelsets.

So near, yet so far.

The westbound sleeper made it to Truro before being terminated due to technical problems with the loco.

Failed with a GSMR problem on the loco. Thinking it was initially the problem was just in the front cab, a spare driver was shoved in the back cab but it proved to be the whole loco.

A shame after a quite a rosy period of reliability.

Rosy, or rose tinted?

I make it just 20 odd days since the last Night Riviera failure.

That's about a 2000% improvement!
It was at least once every night, if not both every night.

It was touch and go with the down sleeper last night, but in the end a fault was rectified in the nick of time.

FGW haven't given up on the sleepers however! I think there is some determination here ;D

I'm booked on it on April 12th - and you know what a jinx I am!

Reminds me of when I was on the 16.06 Pad to PZ in August 2013, it failed at Castle Cary and required fitter attention. Most passengers did a pair of units (2 x 150 I think) on the Weymouth back to Westbury for a following Pad service which was being diverted via Bristol. A few of us stayed on the stricken HST, eventually a fitter arrived by road from Bristol fixed the problem and we were in Taunton an hour before everyone else :o

21:45 Penzance to London Paddington due 05:23
This train has been delayed from Penzance and is now 112 minutes late.
This is due to a train fault.

.........a lie-in for some this morning!!!

Currently at Slough (at 05:53) ... should be in Paddington in the next 25 minutes - around half the lateness recovered.  Hope they don't lie in too long or they'll b back out at Old Oak!

49 late at Paddington.

Fault reported as something to do with GSMR Radio.

Ok fitter already been called to tonight's up sleeper and we haven't left pz yet can't be to bad cus he only had a couple of screwdrivers with him ain't surprised though it is a drs loco on the front! Will update when we have left!

Ok so we haven't left yet there is a outstanding brake issue and also gsmr is playing up!!

Loco failed now a hst when it arrives

Oh, no.  ::) :o

Finally on the move on a replacement hst feel sorry for people who had a sleeper birth booked

Oh dear!
Did do you have to wait for an incoming HST to arrive to form the replacement or did they use one off Longrock? Longrock should have three HSTs on a Sunday prior to the sleepers departure time, with a further two arriving later.  :o

Km

70 late off Penzance ... and just arrived into Paddington 12 minutes early at 04:55  ::)

Let's hope when they announce the franchise extension in the next few days it includes what they intend to do about motive power for the sleeper service as this is becoming ridiculous.

Sleepless night for many no doubt

0509 PLY-PAD starting from Exeter this morning so I'm guessing that was the HST set that got pinched........I can't imagine it being a pleasant journey this morning for those expected to cram onto the 0530 at Plymouth......what a start to the week.

I'm not sure that the 05:09 would be terribly busy before Exeter?   It's the service that goes via Bristol and the 05:30 gets to Reading and London first, so the loss i doing to most effect those from south of Exeter travelling to stations between Bridgewater and Swindon / Didcot, and connecting on northwards.

We had to wait for a hst from long rock wich needed servicing and most importantly fuel!

............I hope they were met with tea and buns!

Especially as I understand they had to get off the train straightaway on arrival!

I'm sure FGW Customer Service teams would have swung into action to make sure the passengers were adequately cared for after what was probably a pretty unpleasant trip?  :-\

And I'm sure they will have been cheered up to see FGW's promises for the new franchise, suggesting that within a few years they will have an upgraded sleeper train with "new, more comfortable interiors and an on-board lounge bar" to be turfed off when its loco fails.

0509 from Plymouth is a really quiet train, I have travelled on it many times and been the only person on-board. No big deal anyway, the 0520 Crosscountry service overtakes it at Taunton.

The set for the 0509 was used to for an extra ECS to Penzance for the 0741 Penzance to London, the set for that obviously being used for the sleeper.

.....a nice lie-in in Penzance! (and yet another fault!)

23:45 London Paddington to Penzance due 07:53
This train has been delayed from London Paddington and is now 90 minutes late.
This is due to a train fault.

Leading loco developed a fault before leaving Paddington so the train went for a little jaunt to Greenford and back to turn it round. The loco which had formerly been on the back then took it west.  Was running right time by the time it got to Devon.

......an impressive recovery!  :)

Due to all lines in the Thames Valley being shut on the 12th I notice that the down sleeper that night leaves Pad at 03:10

I am booked on it.  Apparently the stock will be in Paddington at the usual time and will arrive in Penzance at 09:17 - only slightly later than a normal Monday.

You'll get better sleep stationary in PAD

A couple of G&Ts and I can sleep on the move! 

I'll allow tonic water with gin ...  ;) :D ;D

.....as long as it's Plymouth gin of course!  :D

Sadly no longer available on FGW trains.

I see there is a set of sleeper stock at laira today. Must be having some tlc? And did I read somewhere that sleepers will be hst sets this weekend?

You did, HSTs to/from Waterloo.

I was just about to post the same. From RTT the set in Laira worked the down on Wednesday night then ran ECS penzance to Laira Wednesday afternoon.

So if I'm correct that means both sets are down here? and I wonder how many people will be using the night hsts or even know it's an hst service obvious the people who tried booking a birth will know. Well least it would be a quicker service lol

Correct. Tuesday night down is HST London to plymouth where it will be subbed with the sleeper set at Laira. Depending on the reading works that set could go from either paddington or waterloo.
Tuesday up is a sleeper set to reposition them
There are also at least 3 class 57s down west this weekend. 57604 and a DRS class 57 at penzance and there is a FGW class 57 at Laira.

According to RTT its Monday night not Tuesday that its an HST to Plymouth with the sleeper onwards, Up is the sleeper set.

Full details from the Easter Guide

I was just wondering if this alternative birthing arrangement is available through the NHS?  ;D

Has anyone on here got experience of an "overnight HST service" rather than a sleeper? I can't imagine it's the most enjoyable experience or conducive to getting much kip, especially in Standard class?

Is catering available throughout the night?

Why cant the sleeper operate out of Waterloo?

This is a guess, but the sleeper stock is Mk 3.  As has been noted on another thread this diversionary weekend, Mk 3 stock can only run over third rail if the bogies are of a particular type (Short Swing Link). Some HST stock was so designed when the Cross Country sets were ordered that were planned be used between Basingstoke and Poole. Any other Mk 3 stock, including many HST vehicles, and also the sleeper stock, is not be able to run into Waterloo.

You've also got the issue that a sleeper service requires more platform occupation time, and whilst unlikely to be a problem at 2300, is certainly an issue on its arrival from the West Country in the morning rush hour. Though that may be less of an issue over the bank holiday.


 

If I recall correctly the sleepers used to run to Waterloo rather than Paddington for a period of time (via Kensington Olympia).  Can't remember exactly when but may have been in the late 1990s :-\

There is also nowhere to service the sleeper stock after it would arrive in Waterloo. First you'd need a stabled locomotive nearby to haul the stock out as there are no release points at Waterloo for the arriving locomotive. Then you'd need to get the stock to somewhere it can be serviced and that is, realistically, only Old Oak Common. That means drivers with the right route knowledge to move the set through West London.

And if there's a failure? A not uncommon occurrence with the Night Riviera these days. SWT and Network Rail would not be impressed if one of their platforms or approach tracks was out of action in the morning rush hour.

Just too risky logistically for a relatively small number of passengers. So, while not ideal, an overnight HST is the best compromise.

They did, late 90s or even early 00s, as I recall reading the timetables as a child when visiting my grandads planning trips. He left the UK in 2004. I would imagine I was somewhere between 10 and 14 to show such an interest yet still recall the memories.
My grandad is responsible for my interests as he used to take me on trips most weekends by rail.

According to the following link, Great Western Trains ran the Sleeper to and from Waterloo from May 1995 to September 1998.

http://www.avoe05.dsl.pipex.com/Sheepcote%20Lane%20curve.htm

Things were very different 20 years ago.

Thanks BNM.  Memory not as bad as I thought then ::) :P

Does that mean the loco-hauled mark3s are the right type (Short Swing Link?) to run over 3rd rail then, and it is only some IC125 trailer mark3s that can't go on 3rd rail routes?

I believe that the idea of sending the sleeper into Waterloo was partly to connect with Waterloo Eurostar services. About this time there was also a proposed Plymouth to Paris sleeper, remember that?
Arguably there is an untapped market for sleeper and motorail services from London to destinations across Europe and even Asia, just look at some of the sleeper and motorail services that run in Continental Europe, some of which change gauge on route. But I'm going off topic a bit here!  :o   

There are no gauge changing sleeper or motorail services in Europe.

Sleeper and motorail services in Europe have been drastically cut in the last few years.

I think (if correctly configured and promoted) a continental sleeper service could prove to be useful to business travellers.  Waking yourself up at 4am to get a taxi to Stansted/Heathrow/Bristol/Gatwick/City/etc for the 7am flight followed by a full day of work isn't ideal.  At least with a sleeper, you get to arrive refreshed.

Such a service was envisaged during Channel Tunnel construction. Some rolling stock was even built.

Nightstar, as it was called, was cancelled due to lack of a business case, rising costs and the need for border controls at regional stations. The rolling stock was sold to Canada.

I think that business case is even worse now.

Back on topic - currntly 29 late, due PAD 0537

Meanwhile the down is 40 late at Newton Abbot.

that's not to bad compared to back in the winter

It was 31 late at Truro this morning, so made a bit up.

Still missed the St Ives connection at St Erth by less than a minute.

I've seen this so many times not just with the sleeper but any service.
Last week I watched the St Ives train pull away as passengers were about half way along the up platform from a 6 minute late down train.

The problem with the StIves Branch is that it is quite an intensive service back and fro that any delay could make the shuttle late for the rest of the day.

Indeed so, during the day there will never be more than a 30 min. wait for the next one.

I was in the area over Easter, the St Ives Branch was massively busy at times.

I was just unlucky. The only 40 min daytime gap -   09:38 and then 10:18

I guess the driver and guard need a minute or two for a cuppa now and again...

I don't know if it is usual practice but yesterday they had a driver each end which saved time at the turn rounds.

Thats done quite often (mostly in the summer months) as due to the crowds on the platform and getting off the train at St.Ives it would be impossible for the driver to reach the other end in the short turnaround time ;)

Is the limit up to 4 carriages max due the length of lelant and carbis bay platforms cus I've only ever seen 4 carriages

I can only find up to 4 carriages in pictures on Flickr, except this 2+11 in 1995. Some kind of charter I guess.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/25025911@N08/16311972734/in/photolist-8xikzn-qX6DVc-gpNSQG-atcTvm-8nH4Dv-pkzQus-75aH35-pVgnqC-atcTXy-onyd3F-756LcH-qExiKC-qEDe7B-qEDeKk-rL99mA-6Sqm9p-p68tx4-p681kG-4ou7gw-8ReefG-aiojVE-g8wT8W-75awqw-djDtkt-75ati5-756ydc-pnBunM-p68j2S-pnkgpF-adBz1X-qRr8cd-pkrxBi-fCauVU-75at6d-75aCch-75aBYh-9uaaxS-pnk3LK-pnAgmL-p689pg-p68sr9-p68sHt-p689bF-g8vThT-ehbXMH-fpbLe5-q1j13R-qEEWTt-8xzYFt-fzD9Qu/

This must be a particularly steamy image as it is flagged as "Adult Content" and you have to sign in to see it.  :D

It's 37696, she isn't puffing out much steam though....

I've noticed that a lot on Flickr, where innocent pictures are flagged adult content. I was looking through pictures of old volvos and 3 were marked adult. Yet i innocently stumbled across pictures of what I thought should be adult completely unflagged.

Apologies, my knowledge of European services is a couple of years out of date.

For most of the eighties the St Ives tended to be a pair of 'Heritage units' in the summer which meant you could get either 2+2 or 2+3 or 3+3 carriage formations. (mind you platform lengths weren't such an issue in those days) :o

Something a bit different tonight - the westbound sleeper is starting from Bristol Temple Meads tonight due to staff sickness.

The 23:30 from Paddington was held back 15 minutes to provide a connection into it.

 ???

There has to be a plausable reason, but I cannot think of one!  Any offers anyone?

Considering the crew for the sleeper come up working a service from Exeter, anything could of happened to make them report sick on arrival.

......food poisoning from the buffet? Gastroenteritis from using one of the filthy toilets? Any number of possibilities!  :D

More seriously though, surely there should be a backup/standby resource to cover for these circumstances?

Presumably those with berths will be refunded as they won't have got a lot of sleep?

If the sleeper crew start at the depot, and work a train to Exeter, then I would expect that spare crew ARE available at the depot in case of sickness etc resulting in non arrival.
I doubt that it would be viable however to have spare crew AT Exeter in case one of the crew falls ill en-route.

Usually, if train crew or indeed other staff, arrive fit for work at the proper time then they will remain fit for the rest of the shift. If however someone arrives fit for work, but becomes unfit during the shift, then cancellation or curtailment of a train may be unavoidable.
And yes food poisoning can occur very suddenly part way through a shift, typically within a few hours of eating the tainted food, hopefully not from a train buffet.

Do I understand correctly that a Mr Cameron made use of the down sleeper last night?

No doubt it ran like clockwork otherwise we would have heard about it.

If the Daily Mail is to be believed, he did - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3052000/David-Cameron-gets-night-train-Penzance-looking-dishevelled.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3052000/David-Cameron-gets-night-train-Penzance-looking-dishevelled.html)

Wow, you wrote this at least 3 minutes after I read it. Time now 9.58pm

It had two locos last night. He didn't look very refreshed in some pictures of him exiting the train this morning,

At least he travels by train, a certain Conservative predecessor of his was very averse to using them.  :)

Hmm waiting for up sleeper at penzance. Currently the men with tools are attending! As soon as I typed this the man with the tools has left so should be all ok now!

all good so far left on time

Orange-clad man with spanner: "Quick, lads, duck down - I think Palfers has spotted us - we'll be mentioned on the Coffee Shop forum next!"   ;)

Well the guy did not hang around long straight  out into his car proberly hoping no one spotted him haha

Does anyone know if they are going to use the sleeper seats during the day on Saturdays through the Sumer or is that not happening this summer? Or is the risk of problems to much?

Yes, by all reports.

A delay for the up sleeper overnight.  Apparently problems with the connection between the loco and the leading coach.  The whole train turned on the Laira triangle at Plymouth and the loco attached to the other end.  Left Plymouth over an hour and a half late but made it all up by Paddington.

Ah, the wonders of including "padding ton" in the timetable ... ::) ;) ;D

On this particular service why not.  Passengers do not want to arrive in the middle of the night?

Oh, I'm not disagreeing with you, ellendune - I merely find it amusing that some trains can start so late, but still arrive 'on time'.  ;) :D ;D

Having been on a sleeper that has made up time, it was a very bumpy ride and I didn't sleep well, so it's probably not ideal

Ah, the quintessential dichotomy: would you prefer to arrive on time, or get a good night's sleep?  ::) ;) ;D

I was on a leisure trip. Arriving in London at say 7-8 would of been nicer than 5am.

Almost... But not quite.

The Europe - Russia sleeper changes gauge at Brest on the Polish - Belorussian border. Sleeper cars are jacked up one by one and the gauges are changed.


http://www.seat61.com/Russia.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2plrM6dOcTQ

Also in Spain, many Alvia and Altaris trains change gauge on route. I know for certain this is true for Madrid - Alicante and Madrid - Murcia having done both routes. Train goes through a metal shed which changes the gauge as the train passes through. This is done at relatively slow speed for a Long Distance InterCity service. But with a station call shortly before/after (depending which direction you travel) the gauge changer it doesn't really impact on time of journey :)

Ouch.........nice lie-in for some I guess.


23:45 London Paddington to Penzance due 07:53

This train has been delayed from London Paddington and is now 205 minutes late.
This is due to a train fault.

Only an hour late in the end

Yes I saw that it had made up time, missed out most of the smaller Cornish stations too which helped - any idea what the problem was?

There was a defect with one of the sleeper berth carriages. The set had to return empty to Old Oak to shunt out the defective carriage.

Less of a lie-in for passengers, more like very late to bed.

Helped who exactly?  Presumably not those who rely on the sleeper stopping at the smaller Cornish Stations to get to work.

Sorry I mean it "helped" the sleeper make up time........I should have used inverted commas first time around!  :)

Up Sleeper loco failed between Bodmin Parkway and Liskeard last night. 57604 Pendennis Castle was the errant loco.

Back to back HST power cars were sent from Laira to rescue the set. Arrived Liskeard 160 late.

Passengers woken and detrained at Plymouth and transferred to a HST for onward travel to London. Stops at Totnes, Newton Abbot and Taunton were omitted. Arrived Paddington 50 late.

As a consequence of substituting the Up Sleeper with a HST set the 0712 Taunton - London Paddington via stations to Bristol TM was cancelled.

As a result the 07:12 from Taunton to London Paddington was cancelled as the HST set had been used for the sleeper.

Read on Facebook that an electrical fire was the cause.

57605 is also due to return to OOC from Derby this week following its refit.

The up sleeper failed again last night, loss of lighting in the carriages. Currently in platform 7 at Plymouth as at 0615 this morning. Believe passengers got a HST again.

Which once again appears to have affected the 07:12 from Taunton

............that'll be a few more customers choosing to drive/fly from Newquay in future then?

This is a very poor performance indeed.
Any reasonable person would accept that things go wrong, but it really should not be happening this often.

Is the great re-branding just cosmetic WRT the sleeper ? or will it include things like engines that can make it all the way regularly.

With the SETs soon to replace some of the HSTs on daytime services, perhaps it might be worth considering use of HST power cars on the sleeper instead of conventional locomotives.
This is a non trivial alteration on account of the different electrical systems, but it might be worth re wiring sleeper stock so as to utilise 3 phase auxiliary power as produced by HSTs
Having a standard power car at each end would avoid the time taken in detaching and coupling an engine as at present, and would permit of easy reversals en-route when engineering work requires this.

A costly and short-term solution I'd have thought?  Better to lease/buy some Class 68s, which seem to be settling in quite well on Chiltern?

Possibly, my suggestion is by no means the only option and yours might be a better choice, doing nothing is not a realistic option.
HST power cars should be affordable when fewer are required for day services, but new 68s might be better still.

someone jokingly said to me a few weeks ago why don't they use a steam loco for the sleeper. I know it's not a realistic idea but I wonder would a steam loco be more reliable? and wouldn't it be nice to see a West Country loco hauling the sleeper I wonder if passenger numbers would increase to

I doubt that many more people would use the sleeper if a steamer was used, the idea of the sleeper is to sleep  :) and for most of the year it is dark for most of the trip.
A well maintained steamer might be a bit more reliable than the diesels used now, but that is not saying much !

I would hope for reliable diesels, old or new for the sleeper, and the odd daytime steam special.

If you used steam, you'd need a generator carriage too for hotel power.

..and a few water stops.

and where would you turn the loco around at pz and padd also stocking up on coal

Where there's a will ... St Blazey, via Greenford and Southall.   But I don't think there should be a way taken except for a very rare historic celebration ...

 :( no buffet on up sleeper tonight! due to a crew shortage I don't know if this will be for the entire journey. but where am I supposed to get a cup of aero hot chocolate to now? I do like the aero hot chocolate a lot!

Usually the same person works the buffet throughout the whole journey so I fear you may be out of luck.  The last time that happened to me they did at least announce it before departure from Penzance so there was time to rush to the shops for supplies.

Hopefully anyone joining further up the line will have seen your post and be prepared.  ;D

luckily I bought some food before hand if I known the buffet was shut I would have got a coffee beforehand but I was to late for that   ???

Busiest night of the week on the up too. Hopefully it won't stop you getting a hot drink in the morning - although there is always the first class lounge at Paddington.

luckily I'm only going as far as plymouth. I normally get a drink to try and stay awake which I struggle with after a busy weekend. I just feel sorry for everyone else who's going all the way.

It's three years or so since I was a weekly user of the sleeper, so I may be behind the times, but there always seemed to be a minimum of two crew working the buffet..?

Also have to say this would never happen in the hotel sector, someone would jump in and takeover rather than have the bar closed and turn away paying customers. All seems a bit British Rail tbh.

Down sleeper failed last night, everyone chucked off at Newton Abbot for buses to Penzance, failed train blocked the line too which didn't help this morning's Westcountry services

I think the delays to other services were more due to a problem with the signalling in the Totnes area.  The sleeper was terminated in one of the three platforms at Newton Abbot which may have incurred minor delays until it was moved to Laira by two back to back HST power cars.

I don't know which loco was involved this morning, but the previous night's up sleeper was delayed at Penzance while an oil leak was fixed on 57602 Restormel Castle.

Let's hope a few of the recent seven additional Class 68s ordered by DRS can find a home hauling the sleeper service so the worn out 57s can finally be retired:

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/traction-rolling-stock/single-view/view/uk-and-italian-operators-order-vossloh-locomotives.html?cHash=be53496d2893eb5bdfad8350348e26ed&Continue=1 (http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/traction-rolling-stock/single-view/view/uk-and-italian-operators-order-vossloh-locomotives.html?cHash=be53496d2893eb5bdfad8350348e26ed&Continue=1)

This morning's errant loco was 57605 Totnes Castle.

Just to correct my earlier post. The oil leak was fixed at Plymouth not Penzance. Got my "P"s muddled up.

Mixing up Plymouth and Penzance? Men have been shot for less!!!  ;D

Not sure why that would be the case?  Chiltern's hired in 68s use their own drivers.

Eh? I didn't think DRS had any 67s, I thought the 67s were all DB locos. And the temporary class 57/3s used on the sleeper are DRS locos, aren't they...

Got my letters mixed up !!!

Problems with the westbound sleeper overnight.  First the rear loco - 57303 Pride of Carlisle - failed in platform one having brought the stock in from Old Oak Common and had to be towed back to the depot by an empty HST after the sleeper had departed.

Then the loco at the head of the sleeper came to stand near Lostwithiel but finally managed to limp on to Par where it terminated nearly three hours late.

Caused a few delays and cancellations in Cornwall this morning - including of course the loco and coaches shuttle, which was due to run for the last time this summer today.

I noticed the sleeper waiting at the Truro down home signal at 1018 presumably waiting for the Falmouth 1020 to leave. It was hauled by two power cars and a dead 57. The sleeper is so unreliable and the first train to Penzance at 0706 from Truro that I have had to stop using the train this summer. Unbelievably for a main line in the middle of the holiday season the next train is not until 0942. If the improvements promised for December 2018 come about that cannot be soon enough. I will not believe it until I hear the re signalling project is announced.

I'm usually a jinx when it comes to the sleeper - but last Wednesday night I made it from Paddington to Penzance without incident.  The train was hauled by 57303 which failed on the blocks at Paddington last night.  Three days before I travelled I saw the same loco on the nuclear flask train heading north - although it had another 57 with it.  I think that is standard procedure in case of failure given that you don't really need two locos to haul two wagons.

Two locomotives (not always 57s, often 37s and sometimes other types, such as 66s) does indeed appear to be standard procedure for flask trains, although I think I have read of single locos hauling flasks so double-heading isn't compulsary.

Where was the flask train because 57303 has been solidly working the Sleepers for weeks now and should have been nowhere except between Paddington and Penzance.
I suspect you could have been mistaken.

57303 is on long term lone to FGW to cover for there 57's.
As for there being 2 loco's on the flasks NR want 2 on each train due to the nature of the load in case of problems.

Got my dates muddled. It was the week before, 26th August. Seen going through Bristol Parkway just before 12:30. It was, however, definitely 57303.

57303 would have been at either Old Oak Common or Penzance at this time firmly entrenched with FGW in the Sleeper Pool.

57301 & 57310 I believe did that working from photos on Flickr of the working.

57303 Failed on the down this morning at St Austell.
Came back to life and passed Redruth viaduct as I was leaving for work at just after 0900.

Saw the sleeper leaving Paddington this morning heading back to the depot with Tintagel/Totnes Castle either end, and an interesting multicoloured selection of carriages in between...............as my old Gran would have said, "blue and green should ne'er be seen!"  :D

I was on the Down sleeper last evening, seated in coach A. The coach was in smart green GWR livery externally, but grotty original FGW blue inside.

I noticed yesterday a 57 was bought up from Laira to Old Oak early evening and the ECS from Old Oak into Pad was delayed by an hour, I'm assuming they were having trouble with one of the 57s again

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O29915/2015/09/29/advanced

The GWR liveried 57602 Restormel Castle brought last night's ECS into Paddington and (I think!!) 57604 Pendennis Castle took the Down sleeper forward.

There was a DRS loco ("Pride of Carlisle" I think?) nearby as well as Tintagel Castle just detached this morning when I went past on my way into Paddington, Restormel Castle was attached to a multicoloured set of coaches (only one in the new livery unless my eyes deceived me in the early morning sun!)

GWR aren't the only ones to have sleeper reliability issues ...

BBC News - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-34812382

    .......RMT contemplating strike action? Surely not?  ;)

Wasn't the fleet refurbed when the new franchise came in?

Not that I know of.   The Scottish Government awarded the Sleeper Contract to Serco who are no really noted for being the best !!!  Maintenance was moved from Inverness to Alstom Depot at Polmadie (Glasgow) and went down the pan.

I doubt if they would have done much of a refurbishment as the fleet is supposed to be replaced as part of the new franchise. 

|Ahh, that's it....so when is that happening?

Problem with the Sleeper service this morning due to it hitting a maintenance trolley on the track that had been 'deliberately' placed across it:
http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/Plymouth-train-crashes-stolen-trolley-delaying/story-28291324-detail/story.html (http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/Plymouth-train-crashes-stolen-trolley-delaying/story-28291324-detail/story.html)

More questionable journalism from Plymouth Herald - apparently 'Between Redruth and Truro' is 'shortly after Plymouth'...

Can anyone advise what happened to the down sleeper last night? Stuck at Reading for hours?

Problem with the class 57 loco.

It couldn't be repaired at Reading so an HST was sent from Old Oak Common to take over the service.

50 minutes late into Penzance.  Good job that wasn't the previous night, when I suspect loadings would have been much greater!

Well at least TG can rest easy knowing that his fellow Plymothians made it into Plymouth at a decent time for a change  ;) Maybe not so fresh faced however...

Hmmmmmm......still have to wait a couple of hours till Cap'n Jaspers opens for breakfast though! :)

Problem with the DSD (Drivers Safety Device) at Maidenhead.

Gosh, Cap'n Jaspers! That brings back memories. A bit of idle Google research suggests it's much more up-market these days than when I was acquainted with it in the 1970s, but glad to hear it still goes. Now, what about Ivor Dewdney Pasties...?

The Up Sleeper was in trouble last night.  Left Penzance 90 late due to a problems with the air conditioning.  Then failed at Bruton and limped into Westbury where it terminated after the loco had an oil leak.  Train left Westbury empty stock for Old Oak Common just after 7.

Let's hope the other set behaves better - as I am on the up sleeper tonight!

Blimey - what provisions were made for the poor souls kicked off at Westbury?

The sleeper shows 208 late (05:55) at Fairwood junction, go perhaps 06:00 into Westbury.

I would guess they caught the 06:03 or 06:16 Paddington services, which left at 06:12 and 06:23.  Not sure what time the sleeper limped in.   Westbury also has an 07:01 to Paddington that left at 07:05 ... and an 07:51 ...

Certainly plenty of available alternative services but I'd imagine it's no fun being woken up at silly o'clock and finding yourself standing around in the early morning Wiltshire air. Presumably the passengers will be compensated (eventually!) via GWR's rather slow customer service.

Yes, transferred onto the 06:03 (which looks like it was held and departed at 06:11 having arrived on time), and got into Paddington at 07:47.

From the log:
03:30 Westbury Panel advised 1A40 2145 (ThO) Penzance to Paddington is at a stand in the Bruton area, driver having problems with loco 57605.
03:33 Westbury signaller advised driver has declared loco a failure and assistance required from the front. Loco has lost oil and coolant which has been deposited along side of train.
03:40 Noted 6V14 just arrived at Westbury. GBRF contacted and asked to check if their driver would have route knowledge to assist 1A40 from Bruton.
04:17 DB Cargo confirmed 66175 will be the assisting engine from Whatley.
05:20 Agreed with all concerned, once 1A40 on the move train will terminate at Westbury where passengers will detrain to 1K71 0518 Bristol TM to Paddington. The DB Cargo loco will cut off the stock and the Class 57 from London will take ECS to Old Oak Common in suitable margin. Westbury Panel aware and will try to arrange cross platform transfer between 1A40 and 1K71.

Sounds like a pretty good resolution to a tricky problem - would have certainly kept the night shift in control busy!  Always much more difficult to arrange rescue for loco hauled services given there are so few locomotives around these days compared with the 90s and before, and that they all belong to different operators.

Looks like this is the ECS and it arrived at OOC at 0918:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O95067/2016/05/20/advanced (http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O95067/2016/05/20/advanced)

Pleased to say, for once, I wasn't a jinx on the sleeper and this morning's 1A40 arrived spot on time at Paddington at 05:12.

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/sleep2105.jpg)

I've used the sleeper for my commute in Cornwall 10 days of the last month. I've only encountered 57604 and 57303. All journeys have been within 1 minute of schedule.

..........a few problems on the sleepers over the last few days I understand?

Unusual one last night on the up.  Service was topped and tailed with two locos but the wrong one was at the front apparently.  Multiple shunt moves at Truro to put it right which took 80 minutes and delayed the following Cross Country Service by over an hour.

Sleeper recovered most of its lost time by the time it reached London.

Excuse my loco ignorance, but aren't they both the same?

Yes they are the same when they work, except the one that failed the night before was at the front instead of the back where it should of been as a poorly loco.
I am on the down every morning this week from Liskeard to Truro. Tuesday morning down had 57603 on the front and 57303 on the back - 57303 had a reportedly poorly compressor. The down lost 30 mins between Plymouth and Penzance against timetable despite a lot of padding on Tuesday morning. I suspect both 57303 and 57603 were poorly.
57604 this mornings down was 5 early arriving in Truro.

If both are in full working order and are of a suitable type, then yes they are the same and it matters not which one is which end.
In practice though a variety of faults and failures can render a loco available to assist in moving the train, but unfit to be at the front.
Examples include defective headlight, damaged windscreen, TPWS not working, radio not working, and in cold weather cab heater not working.
In other cases a sick but not yet dead loco might be attached at the rear in order to provide ETS (electric train supply for heating, cooling, lighting etc) The train can then be hauled by loco at the front, perhaps a freight engine not equipped to supply ETS.

Various other permutations exist. In many cases, both locos may be at the front, but due to a defect on one they have to be in the right order.

Fascinating, broadgage. You wouldn't fly a plane with a lot wrong, but a loco can be barely alive, yet A1 fit for service!

Actually, I have flown an aircraft with duff lights - acceptable except for the fin beacon if the flight is in daylight - and with a faulty nav radio - I found my way by looking out of the window. In both cases, it was straight into the hangar after landing. Is there no-one to mend locos?

On the Tuesday morning down 57603/303 there was what looked like a (mechanic???). A man with overalls and a high vis GWR jacket kept walking through the train.

Officially known as a "fitter"  ;D

.......carrying a ball of string, a roll of gaffer tape and Trigger's broom!

Not forgetting the quick setting epoxy adhesive, the cable ties and some galvanised iron wire !

And, more commonly these days, a laptop computer for diagnostic checks.  Though that probably wouldn't be the case for a Class 57!

From what I have read on these pages over the years it would seem that the Jeremy Clarkson fix-all - a large hammer - would be most appropriate for 57s.

57303 was on the rear of the down this morning, 57605 leading.
57605s first outing since spewing most of its fluids over the line near Westbury
I guess on the balance of probability between the two of them they'd make it!

Well the down sleeper has fallen over again......didn't leave Paddington until 0311 and is terminating at Plymouth.

It's now showing as running to Penzance only stopping at Truro after Plymouth. Currently 195 late. Expected into Penzance at 1118!
No good for me getting to work though.

If it wasn't clear a couple of years back, it is now, time for the 57s to be replaced by new locos. Class 68s perhaps? And yes someone is going to ask 'who is going to pay for them?'

Problems again last night at Padd, rolling stock problems this time, the complete train had to go back to OOC to have the defective coach taken out of the train. Seemed to take an absolute age and I think it was 205 mins late departing, and came past Kintbury about 180 late with only six coaches on. It looked like it was the seating coach that was missing, the one at the back of the train.

Funny you should mention class 68s today. Guess what's running to Penzance today on route learning activities. Yep a class 68s first visit to Cornwall.

This point crops up from time to time but GWR resist it.   Apart from the cost of driver training.   If DRS locos, they would want their drivers to drive them, a point GWR are resisting.

I'm not sure that's the case.  Chiltern drivers driver their 68s.  It's probably down to the additional leasing costs/training of staff.  And possibly a little stubbornness.

.............an attitude which hardly fits in with the much trumpeted "Building a Greater West"...............I wonder how much providing a reliable sleeper service by leasing a couple of locos would cost compared to the multiple paint jobs, advertising campaigns and new uniforms?

Tonight's down cancelled due to the incident at Paddington, so can assume we will see a daytime ECS to get the stock in the right place for Friday night up,

Down sleeper was reinstated, nearly 2 hours late from Paddington, just passed Newton abbot barely 30 late. It went via Bristol bath etc, making calls to set down passengers at each.
Realtime trains suggest it will be barely 10 late time it reaches Liskeard.
I Wonder if I might see a HST and not a 57 this morning if it's been used as a Bristol stopper to get people moved, 2 seated sleeper coaches just don't seem sufficient from the crowds I understand were stuck at Paddington

And for maybe another topic, where does GWR journey check pull its info from. It's saying 103 late for the entire journey, we all know the sleeper makes up lots of time, and won't be 103 late for the whole way. Fortunately I know to check other places as have seen this before where it doesn't allow for the prolonged stops at Reading, Exeter and Plymouth.

Not so much a question of "where does it pull its information from" but "what information does it pull?".  It routinely takes a stated delay and carries it on through the journey, only  (it appears) changing the lateness at if a fresh delay is entered along the route.  Brighton to Great Malvern train leaves Brighton 5 late ... usually shows as being 5 late at Great Malvern too!

I've Just got to liskeard only 9 late now! Still the 57 with beds, (according to the CIS boards) but via Bristol calling didcot, Swindon Cheltenham bath and Bristol.
Can't imagine it having been a comfortable night sleep with it pushing along that quick. Aprox 4 hr 45 Paddington to liskeard via Bristol is only around 15 mins slower than the via Bristol HSTs do it in!

Edit- if CIS was to be believed Hst set led by 43028 has gained a number of beds at the rear  ;D

Edit 2- arrived in Truro on time so can't use that as an excuse to be late for work  ::)

On services I watch across TOCs, it does seem to know where 'catch-up' minutes are embedded in the timetable, so reduces the incurred delay by these as the planner shows subsequent stops. On Chiltern, eg, a 10 minute delay on a Kidderminster service can be shown as still arriving on time.

Both Up and Down Sleepers tonight will be HSTs and calling at various stations in lieu of cancellations and service disruption.

I hope they get compensation....won't be getting much sleep.

,

Why ? I appreciate that there is still serious disruption after the mishap yesterday, but by the time that sleeper runs, services are less frequent and finding a path for the sleeper should be easy.

For seated passengers who might otherwise be stranded, either attach a couple of extra seating coaches to the sleeper, Even the wretched 57s should be able to handle another few coaches, remembering the relaxed timings. Or perhaps run an additional late evening HST. Much later than usual, but well before the sleeper.

and where do they get extra Mk3 seated coaches from?

ive been told that last nights up terminated at Reading, there is driver shortages to move an ECS until Sunday, with one set stuck in OLd Oak Common depot.
Tomorrows 57 day coach service par-Plymouth Plymouth- Exeter and Exeter - penZance won't run with a 57 as no 57 set in Cornwall.

Perhaps (some of) the ones used for the daytime loco hauled service ?

Which are the same seated ones used in the night time sleeper. There isn't an extra set!

What daytime service? I wasn't aware they ran one?

They do, but the post above advises that the coaches used are the same ones used at night, I thought that they were additional.

so what time & where does it go (which is what I was after)

Plymouth to Exeter I believe.
Here's a clip from Dawlish: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15pj971_8is

Par to Plymouth, Plymouth to exeter, Exeter to Penzance. Summer Saturday only to free up a 150.

2P70 PAR 1125 - PLY 1229
2E75 PLY 1335 - EXD 1453

2C51 EXD 1750 - PNZ 21112P70 PAR 1125 - PLY 1229
2E75 PLY 1335 - EXD 1453

2C51 EXD 1750 - PNZ 2111

This is the second year it has run.   All the enthusiasts are itching to know what is working it each Saturday.

Last nights 'up' failed at Penzanxe. HST ran in its place with the 0650 Penzance to Paddington cancelled this Morning due to one HST short.
Expect a daytime stock move over the weekend in time for Sunday night down as both sets are currently in Penzance,

Too simplistic to fix overnight and run the 06:50 with the sleeper set?  Minimal knock-ons if it's a bit slow as the HST for the outbound diagram from Paddington's already in London!

There would certainly be traincrew problems in addition to the type of accomodation

In addition it only has two day (seated) coaches so might be a bit problematic with passenger loadings.

At that time in the morning, some of the punters might have been quite happy with a bed instead of a seat...  ;)

I expect there have been a few "please explain" notes flying around today after the sleeper was delayed in Wiltshire last night.

It was booked to go through Melksham but a freight was coming up the branch with another on the main line waiting for it to clear Thingley Junction.  In the meantime the sleeper was crossed to the Up reversible line at Wootton Bassett which meant when it got to Thingley East there was nowhere for it to go except on towards Bath as it was blocking the path for the freight to leave the single line.

So the sleeper was sent on to Bristol Temple Meads, where because of engineering work on the line through Bridgwater, the loco changed ends and it came back through Bath to reach Westbury via Bathampton Junction and Bradford on Avon.

The end result was it was an hour late in Penzance.

I wondered what had happened!

Clearly, someone thought the third platform at Chippenham was already back in action and available as a lay-by  / loop.

I take it the train crew had route knowledge as it went via Bristol, etc.  A well versed crew it seems!
Would that have been the Paddington to Exeter crew, or did they change somewhere in between?

I am not 100% about drivers but the train managers on all the sleeper services are based at Exeter and work half the journey on any one shift.  In other words down from Exeter to Penzance in the morning before working a day service back to Exeter or work a service up to Paddington in the early evening and then go back to Exeter on the sleeper.

The stewards and catering staff are based at Penzance.

The regular train crews know all the "101" possible diversionary routes.

Been a few issues this week with "getting stuck" in poor rail conditions.
Sunday's up took 95 mins to get up Hemerdon bank, with 3 crew reportedly applying sand.
Last night/This mornings down got stuck on the incline from St Germans to Liskeard.

Monday morning when I got to work at 0345 there was a heavy frost in the Plymouth area coupled with leaf fall I imagine it being a complete nuisance, this morning there was torrential rain when I left Liskeard at 0315.

Love your company, hate your hours!

Like the comment for the Down sleeper on 22/11. No mention of floods severing the line.............

That had been amended by 0500 this morning

Can we anend this thread's title? fgw have been gone a while now :-)

Perhaps change FGW to "Night Riviera".

So it just took the Sunday route! It goes that way most Sundays. Means drivers have the route knowledge kept up

Done!  ;D

I notice that there was a large delay on the Night Riviera leaving Paddington last night. Didn't arrive until 10am into Penzance anyone have any idea why? Looks like it arrived on time into Paddington and was there when I passed it last night.

According to the WNXX forum the train loco failed and the coaches had to be released by the Old Oak Common class 08 shunter to allow the inbound empty stock loco to take the train out.  However, it also had problems in Cornwall due to the usual 'leaves on the line' and frosty rails requiring hand sanding by the driver ::)  In consequence it arrived in Penzance nearly two hours late and in the process disrupted the Cornish rush hour ;)

Thanks for the info much appreciated.

Tonight's up sleeper still at Penzance with a fault.

Last night's (dep Penzance on 16th Dec, for avoidance of doubt) up train left nearly 3 hrs late, skipped all the Cornish stops, and is now forming 1B10 on arrival at Paddington, rather than going empty as 5A40 to Old Oak.  This suggests an HST set has substituted.

It was indeed substituted.

Fitters unable to fix an unspecified fault on the sleeper set.

57603 lack of power. HST subbed.

Will probably result in some ECS over the weekend as both sets will be at Penzance, and with the depot works there isn't room for one set let alone two, with the single set normally using the siding just outside the station!

I can't see a cancelled HST service this morning neither as we are now a HST short at Penzance .

As for 1B10 I'm not sure that's right, the sleeper HST arrived into platform 8, 1B10 is platform 10. 1B15 is the next movement out of 8.

I was lucky then. Had three uneventful sleeper trips behind 57603 this week.

I was just deducing this from the TrainDescriptions on the Paddington map of Open Train Times. 1A40 in an arrival berth (can't recall which platform - might have been 8, 9 or 10), and 1B10 in the departure berth of the same platform.  It could easily have changed later, before departure - I didn't stay watching it.

Quite a few changes this morning at Paddington following a fatality at Southall.

Also delayed the stock for the steam excursion to the West Somerset getting from Southall to Victoria.  Left Victoria nearly an hour late but has a couple of pathing stops so should make a lot of that up.

Long Rock to Old Oak Common via Penzance scheduled for 12 noon for the ECS stock and either 57604/5 as both came down last night for such a purpose. 3 x 57s at Penzance this morning.

5A85 STP 08+15 Laira to Penzance forming 1A85 1058 Penzance to Paddington in lieu set off Long Rock.

I hope Santa isn't relying on the sleeper......then again it's a Cinderella service at the best of times so the whole thing might end up as a pantomime  (ooooooh I'm good today!)  ;D

Oh no your not !..

Empty stock on way to Paddington (sat outside RDG for a while)

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O56915/2016/12/18/advanced

Thought so, just gone past Taplow as I was looking out of the window!

A post from an engineer on another forum reveals 2016s reliability stats:


Of course he doesn't mention punctuality but still positive results from old locos.

Problems last night it seems.


Facilities on the 23:59 Plymouth to London Paddington due 05:11.
Will be formed of 8 coaches.
This is due to a fault on this train.
Additional Facilities Information
Sleeper accommodation is not available.
Additional Information
Service will be formed by a High Speed Train set

Class 57 failed at Laira last night.

Loco & Stock ran as 5Z70 09+00 Laira to Old Oak Common this morning

Anyone on the Up sleeper tonight?

21:15 Penzance to London Paddington due 05:03


Facilities on the 21:15 Penzance to London Paddington due 05:03.
Will be formed of 6 coaches instead of 7.
This is due to a fault on this train.
Additional Facilities Information
Due to a fault with coach H, this coach will be unavailable. Customer's with sleeper berth reservations for Coach H on the Night Riviera Sleeper are advised to contact GWR customer services.
GWR customer services: 0345 7000 125.

Oh dear - especially at the end of half term week.

Just to show that it's not all doom and gloom on the Riviera Sleeper. We travelled down to Penzance on Thu/Fri, we made use of the complimentary drinks and snacks in the 1st class waiting room, then boarded to enjoy the onboard bar, and travelled out of London (on time to the second) in the bar seating area. We then retired to our 'snug' cabin, that we'd been welcomed to by the friendly steward a little earlier.

I couldn't tell you if we arrived at the interim stations on time as I was sound asleep. But our breakfast was delivered on time at 6:45 and we arrived in Penzance on time.  So all in all a great way of travelling to Cornwall in what would normally be 'wasted' time.

We travelled back on the 09:47 which arrived into Paddington a couple of minutes early, but it's not quite as relaxing as the sleeper  ;)

Welcome to the forum, Mike!    Glad the sleeper worked well for you.

Where something goes wrong, it makes news.   Where it goes right (especially if it routinely goes right), that's no news and doesn't make the headlines.    Nature of the beast?

Wonderful to see real life and good news comments posted.  Satisfied customer - I expect you'll be using the sleeper again??

I agree the sleeper is a great way to travel.  I have used it four times since Christmas.

I have not had a problem on any of those trips - apart from on one occasion someone trying to claim my berth, but it turned out they were a day early!

The challenge with the sleeper is it relies on limited resources which need to be at the extreme ends of GWR's operating area six nights a week.  Therefore it doesn't take much cause a problem.

Thank you Grahame, as you say it makes news when it goes wrong, hence my attempt to provide a little balance.

We probably won't use it again though, it was an itch that we wanted to scratch and it well and truly ticked the box for us.

I hope the 0947 was on a different day. I'd want at least a day to explore the area before I returned.


Earlier this month at Schipol two young ladies were turned away from my flight at the gate because they were a month early. The ticket barriers into airside let them through apparently.

Ha! Yes, we came back on Sunday morn  :)

Rough weather? 


21:45 Penzance to London Paddington due 05:08


21:45 Penzance to London Paddington due 05:08 will be starting late from Penzance.
This is due to train crew being delayed.

The 15:06 from London Paddington which the TM for the sleeper, at least, catches from Exeter to work the train was terminated at Plymouth after being delayed at Newton Abbot for over half an hour and then skipping Totnes due to mechanical problems.

Eventually left 58 minutes late.  Inconvenient for those waiting at stations in Cornwall, but should make up the time by London.

Travelled back from Truro to Exeter on the sleeper last night after a sunny day in Falmouth. Had a seat booked in coach A, which was the original 2 + 1 layout, and although the interior was somewhat jaded, it was a most comfortable 2.5 hours in a wide, reclining seat with some wine and nibbles.

However, I  also checked out the second seating coach, which had been refurbished and can best be described as "high density". Whilst very smart in the green livery, it felt claustrophobic and a retrograde step backwards in terms of comfort and privacy, with barely any tables and rows of airline seats squashed together.

The investment in the sleeper is hugely welcome, but not this new seat layout.

(Not a problem but wasn't worth starting a new thread..)

Any reason why the sleeper will be spending some days at Reading depot from October?

5A40 (http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C21211/2017/11/01/advanced)
5C99 (http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C29697/2017/11/01/advanced)

Getting used to its new home when OOC closes

New refurbed carriages have systems not supported at OOC and at present can only be emptied at Longrock

It's also to allow those Cornwall-to-Reading passengers who missed their 0421 wake-up call, and find themselves at Paddington, to remain on board for a civilized 0845 alighting. ;D
This post may contain traces of untruth

Like the toilets which are stinking by the time it returns to Penzance. 36 hours of toilet smells lovely....

Last night I had my first-ever journey on the Night Riviera, travelling from PAD to PNZ behind 57602. There was no problem with timekeeping, it arrived 2 minutes early at PNZ, indeed according to RTT it was 30 minutes early at Taunton. (RTT reports that the previous night's service was 20 minutes early at Taunton but had become 60 late by Exeter).

I enjoyed the new experience and I managed to get a good amount of sleep even though the leading bogie of the coach had a somewhat annoying wheelflat. It was worse at lower speeds and the first part of the journey to RDG involved a fairly slow trundle along the DR so I thought it might keep me awake all night. However once the train got up speed the thumping from the wheel became less noticeable and I got some shut-eye.

I was in an unrefurbished coach so the cabin was looking a little tired but it was clean and comfortable and my only gripe was that the wash basin was a little smelly when the top was open. The breakfast was tasty but small, however I discovered a 'fry-up' place close to PNZ station so I filled up there. ;)

Overall a good and very different type of rail journey, hopefully I'll do it again some time!

Member 'broadgage' will no doubt be pleased with your news, BBM.  ;) :D ;D

Not so good this morning...

07/09/17 21:45 Penzance to London Paddington due 05:11 will be terminated at Taunton.
It will no longer call at Reading and London Paddington.
It has been previously delayed, is being further delayed at Tiverton Parkway and is now expected to be 300 minutes late.
This is due to a fault on this train.

Looks like it limped along, eventually sat down, and blocked the morning trains coming up to London behind it.

Currently (06:50) sat alongside platform 4 at Taunton with a Cross Country and GWR services from Plymouth vying for platform 5 behind it.

Some GWR staff might have been late for work, there is a long standing arrangement for the sleeper to call at Swindon at 03:15 to pick them up.

Presumably it wouldn't have been beyond the ability of GWR to arrange alternative transport for their staff?

Was assisted from point of failure between Tiverton Jn and Taunton by 59001 which was removed from it's train at Taunton and ran wrong road to assist.

The rescuing loco also had fuel problems of its own which further delayed things. 

Empty stock just approaching Reading (10:20am) having come up the Berks & Hants.

According to RTT it left Penzance on time but subsequently got into trouble. It was 55 late at Par, 81 late at Plymouth and 163 late at Exeter St Davids.

Why didn't they just CAPE it at Exeter St Davids rather than let it carry on and fail (and block the line) before it reached Taunton?

Funnily enough, RTT shows that the following trains were cancelled from Paddington due to an issue with the train crew:
0547 to Worcester Foregate Street
0615 to Hayes & Harlington
0652 to Great Malvern

57604 was sent down on the rear of 1C99 to detach at Exeter to assist from there but doesn't appear to have been very successful.

The PAD - PNZ sleeper (on the 18th) had a bit of a bad evening/morning with a 75min delay when it reached PNZ this morning.

Last nights "up" failed at Hemerdon and was pulled back to Plymouth by the two Laira 08s.

57603 came down light engine to collect the rake and 57604 today, however that's now failed on its way back up to Paddington inside Marley Tunnel. Assuming tonight's "down" will be affected looking at the time now.

Currently disrupting services on the up line in that area (Totnes)

Saw one of the 57's running light through Reading at around 1130 today and wondered if something was up!

Light engine to Laira by the look of it: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O45223/2017/11/20/advanced

There seems to have been a problem with the up sleeper last night arriving at Plymouth 22 late and leaving 204 late:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P00049/2017/11/19/advanced

The ECS is now underway almost 3 hours late. Brakes stuck on in the tunnel according to well positioned posters on a Facebook group.
It held in the Totnes platform avoiding line to allow 1A94 to overtake, and is now following 1A94. expected to Paddington at 2334 now and OOC 2352. Definitely delaying the down tonight.

1M83 has also overtaken it, and looks as though 1A35 is about to.

journey check has down sleeper as HST with no sleeping berths available

Did the ECS bother going all the way to OOC? It’ll be needed at penzance tonight now!

5C99 currently en route O O Common to Penzance for tonight

57602

Anyone heard from GWR what they will be compensated for lack of berths on this service, or recent similar subsitution with HST ?

 There seems little point in refurbishing the sleeping berths if the 57's still prove
 unreliable.
 
 Putting the 'cart before the horse'.

Previously I've had a full refund for a lack of berth on the Sleeper. This was almost 15 years ago I think so not sure if things are the same now.

A horse and cart would be more reliable.

Tonight “up” is a HST. The 57 took a dead HST to Laira today.

Currently no shore supply at Penzance I wonder if an issue through no power to the coaches this afternoon/evening?

From Journeycheck at 07:00 this am 02/01/2018


23:45 London Paddington to Penzance due 07:55

23:45 London Paddington to Penzance due 07:55 will be starting late from London Paddington and is expected to be 30 minutes late.

This is due to a person being hit by a train.

Last Updated:02/01/2018 00:14


Was this the 01/01/2018 service or is this someone reading todays crystal ball  ???


Also Journeycheck reports a number of short formed services, 4 carriages instead of 8 due to more than usual trains needing repairs at the same time - really !!!!  all these lovely brand new trains needing repairs so soooooooon,

More likely teething troubles ... having been stored in sidings awaiting entry to service, the engines won't start because the batteries have gone flat  ;D  ;D   (Yes, I know they're electric)

In seriousness - it would be nothing short of a miracle if it was 100% from the first day of full service.

According to RTT last nights service arrived 1 minute late at Penzance having left 29 mins late from Paddington. It had made half of that up by the time it reached Reading and left Taunton on time.

Quite a rough ride for those sleeping then....

Worse for those still awake...

Why?....I would have thought those asleep were woken by the increased speed and rocking...

I think FT,N was being amusingly pedantic, Chris,

Anyway there would have been no increased speed or rocking, the sleeper is timed with a huge amount of padding, can the same be said for the beds?

If you get a refurbished cabin - yes.

You read me like a book, II!

This often happens in Journey Check in case of trains running from one day into the next

Both sleepers cancelled tonight I see.

Little choice - Network Rail closing the line at Dawlish during the evening until midday tomorrow:

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=19411.msg232545#msg232545

Ironically, using snowploughs etc to keep the rest of the main line open as far as possible.

Shows the delicacy of Dawlish again!

Yeah that's understandable and the Scottish ones are also non running for the second night. A mate has pointed out that the BBC don't mention the Caledonian Sleepers anymore on the digital text on the TV and don't therefore say they're cancelled.

Cally sleepers also gone tonight for the 3rd night i a row. None scheduled tomorrow either. And still no trains twixt Edinburgh & Newcastle 0- the photos & video on twitter of the snowdrifts are !!!

Up sleeper last night (7th/8th) still sat at Newton Abbot (06:40) having completely failed.

Developed problems after Plymouth.   Finally declared a failure about 04:40.  Not sure what happened to the passengers.  Could well have been sent up on the first train of the day from Plymouth.

Left Newton Abbot at 08:40 heading for Reading Traincare Depot

.................the train or the passengers?  ;)

The train.  Suspect the passengers were put on the 04:51 ex Plymouth when it got to Newton Abbot.  That train was slightly delayed between Reading and London Paddington due to a problem with the brakes.

Does one get the fare refunded for events like this?

Would certainly expect the berth to be refunded (if bought separately) and as arrival into Reading and London was over three hours late; the fare too.

Considering the amount of failures, although it did improve for a short time, is it not time that GWR either axed the sleeper and added more later and earlier services, or what I expect in the new franchise, replacements by Class 68s and MK5s. Its completely unfair on passengers who may used this services for business, that they cannot guarantee the train will even get to Taunton let alone Paddington.

Apart from the Taunton failure on the 7th and understandable cancellations after the snow a couple of weekends back, I’m struggling to find many other instances where the sleeper has proved unreliable over the last few months?

Obviously the 57s will not go on for too much longer, and 68s would be the obvious choice to replace then, though I can see the carriages staying long into any new franchise given their recent refurbishment.  It would be a politically difficult decision to axe it.

Depends really, the refurbishment was part of the franchise extension agreement, and considering the previous one was a touch of paint, i can only see it being a temporary measure. As regards to political issues, it all depends, with services getting faster and more frequent, and with GWR having the ability to put on later services once the 802s come into service, it may well be that there is no longer a requirement for a sleeper service.  Don't forget the sleeper has an hour or two wait at Exeter, and only goes up to 100mph. The latest train from Exeter current is 19:40 i believe, making Plymouth 18:40 ish, whilst the latest service from Newcastle leaves at 22:30pm. Give that GWR will have the ability to run smaller 5 car units on later services, I suspect many MPs and locals would rather have later and earlier trains, than a sleeper service.

Hmm.  If I recall correctly, it was pressure from several West Country MPs, amongst others, that kept the Night Riviera sleeper service going.  ::)

Yes 10 years ago, when we had a shortage of rolling stock and it wasn't economical to run later trains, Exeter & Plymouth have vastly grown in 10 years, also with IET's being able to run as 5 car units, there is less financial risk on GWR.

It’s full most nights, so there is clearly a business case to keep it going.

Exeter has experienced considerable economic growth, Plymouth (my home town) is sadly fading away although it's by far the biggest city in the Southwest and the most strategically significant with vast potential.

I can see the argument for the up sleeper, as it gives a perfect arrival time in London for a day's business, but the down sleeper is only really attractive for those heading for the depths of Cornwall.

If you want to make the down sleeper a "sell" for Plymouth, then it has to have more practical timings, if it did, it could be an asset, particularly since (ludicrously) the airport closed.

Being turfed off at 0515 is useless for tourists or business - I believe that "in the old days" a sleeper carriage was detached at Plymouth and those on board could slumber on until a more practical hour - this would make it far more attractive. Either that, or move the departure time back at Paddington a couple of hours, I'm sure it's not necessary for the sleeper to sit in Exeter and elsewhere for hours on end.

I noted (before Graham censored it  ;)) Hopwood's comments about increased partnership between GWR and the regions. Let's see if words translate into actions.

Otherwise (or preferably additionally) introduce a faster, early morning service Paddington - Taunton - Exeter - Plymouth.

Not censored - embargo had shifted from 00:01 to 10:00 - site now live at http://www.britainrunsonrail.co.uk/my-area/west.html and post returning to public view.

Are your sure the embargo wasn't delayed to a more suitable time for this kind of PR, like perhaps in six months (subject to review)?

Web site went live at 10 a.m. ... so it's out there.  Doesn't really feel like a good day for it though!

Mind from my feed just now


So perhaps it's the very RIGHT time to say "we're gong to put this right"

I would be surprised if the sleeper was to be axed anytime soon, even with upcoming improvements to journey time and frequency of daytime trains - but I’ve been surprised before regarding decisions on the railway.

The Sleeper is a hotel on wheels.  If it does run, but arrives extremely late, (if only to ensure the stock is ready for the next day), then GWR will refund the fare, but will charge extra for the berth for "late checkout"!  ;)

From memory the axing of the Plymouth carriage was down to the extra expense of running it. I think they had to have a shunter & driver there to move the carriage which wasn't cheap apparently. I used it at least once and it was convenient but I think the shunting woke me up.

Anyone know why the service is only running to/from Plymouth tonight?

Only to Plymouth all week as line is closed west of Truro

Thanks, at the back of my mind I think I knew that

Yes, that’s right.  It in effect saved what was a marginal service good for the region, as the extra cost of the Plymouth portion was dragging it down financially.  It would be nice if it could have a Plymouth portion (as it would be nice if it had an Exeter portion) but few would say the outlay makes financial sense.  A later departure time from Paddington might be a better idea to allow a later arrival time at Plymouth, though if it’s too late then the attraction of joining it at Reading is reduced significantly.  As is often the case, there has to be a sensible trade off.

I cant see the sleeper being withdrawn any time soon. It is much favoured by drunken Sorry hard working and stressed MPs.

A later evening or earlier morning service is a very poor substitute for a night in bed if suffering from a "stress headache"

Not sure it is still exists but there used to be a ticket easement which allowed Exeter passengers to double back via Plymouth so they didn't have quite such an early start.   Perhaps there should be an easement for those travelling to Plymouth to allow them to go to say Bodmin Parkway or Truro and catch one back and be in Plymouth in time for a morning meeting.

The sleeper neither lacking in passengers or recent investment, and is hugely important to residents of Cornwall.

However, Exeter, Totnes, Newton Abbot and Plymouth deserve a 23.00 fast train from Paddington, and I personally believe this would not impact the sleeper adversely

I asked that very question a couple of years back when using the sleeper back to Exeter. Their answer was...

Seems a fair point, Swansea have one that departs PAD at 2245 and Cardiff a 2330.

Which just goes to show the lack of joined up thinking - what use is a "sleeper" that turfs you out at Exeter at 3am, or Plymouth just after 5am?

It may be an asset to the good people of Cornwall, but from a business perspective, which must be one of its drivers, Westbound to Devon it's pretty useless.

A 2230-ish fast service as suggested would be far more practical, at least you'd be able to get a bit more kip in a hotel when you arrive ready for the next day, or an 0530 fast service Taunton - Exeter - Plymouth..........make it a Pullman and serve breakfast!

The trend is for later departures so I can see a later evening service being a distinct possibility - to complement the sleeper service, not replace it.b

Let's hope so - but if there's a later evening service that gets to Exeter at (for example) around 0030 and Plymouth an hour  later, it stands to reason that you can expect far fewer customers for those major destinations to use the sleeper.

The question is during the winter months how many people in Exeter & Plymouth use the sleeper to make it viable, and would a late evening Paddington to Plymouth and late Plymouth to Padd service take some of those passengers away, making it unprofitable? As apart from the holiday season, there is hardly a massive demand for a 7 or 8 coach sleeper train to Penzance if two of your key stops can get served by a train that arrives before or just after midnight.

 

Just arriving into Penzance now (09:34).


EDIT to add: Well the passengers did.  The sleeper stock itself is still blocking platform 3 at Newton Abbot.  Rescue loco is just approaching Totnes (09:55)

Sleeper rescued by 2 back-to-back HST power cars as 5C99.

Picture on Devon Railway Photography Facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/Devonrailphotography/photos/a.197218983973976.1073741828.196879454007929/599640140398523/?type=3&theatre

I know it's not what happened ... by just for a moment I thought ...

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/bwwarships.jpg)

I can remember travelling on the up sleeper in 1968 with two warships on the front

We did it with a single Western back in the dim dark past twtd.

Give me Restormel Castle any day. 

The one that was forever breaking down? 😉

Had more luck with that loco than Pride of Cumbria - which has been a jinx for me.

During my time signalling at Witham, the only problem that I can recall with The Sleepers (which used to travel our way, back then, in both directions) was when an unfortunate person jumped off a bridge in front of the D1000 hauled Up service one night, near Clink Road Jcn.  The front brake pipe was knocked off the loco and a full emergency brake application ensued.  The train was rescued by a loco from Westbury fairly swiftly and went on its way.

Of course, the biggest problem with The Sleepers was the Taunton fire.  That occurred after I'd left the big railway in favour of the then very little, but re-opening, West Somerset Railway.

Last night's down sleeper likely to be two hours late into Penzance this morning.

Delayed at Newton Abbot for nearly two and a half hours waiting for over-running engineering work to finish.

I got the sleeper for the first time on Thurs 26th July, from Paddington to Camborne. It being one of the hottest days of the year, it wasn't a total surprise to get woken at 3am to be told the aircon had failed and they had to choose between kicking us all off or propping our doors open with paper cups to improve the air circulation. I felt rather sorry for the staff doing the waking and the door propping, as I imagine the hot weather meant opening cabins to find their occupants not wearing a great deal.

From gwr.com

Pity the passenger(s) who arrives at Paddington at 23:31 or will the 23.30 to Cardiff be held till 23:45.

Even worse if you subscribe to GWR travel alerts


Although to be fair if you booked a berth they will have taken a phone number to contact you on.

It left at 2345.

Well common sense tells you it would!   ;)

Real time trains shows the Cardiff service leaving at 23:45 from Paddington and good time allowed for the connection to the sleeper, which as a result left there late.   As I write, though, the sleeper has made up that shortfall and is on time at Newton Abbott.    The Cardiff remained 15 late all the way.

Probably the best solution in the circumstances, as indeed common sense suggests.

Has someone in GWR HQ got some ? Tell that to Grahame with his missed connections.

GrahamE here - that missed connection episode, with the photo I took of people dashing up to the train as it pulled out - is now with GWR for inclusion in staff training as an example of what not to do.   Time can't be rolled back to correct that day last month, but there is some comfort in lessons being widely learned.

Even more common sense was applied, by having the Cardiff train use Platform 12 at Reading with the sleeper on 13 for cross platform interchange.   :o

Was it, or did the Network Rail signaller suggest it ? Who ever it was, good thinking.

Often late evening sees only P12-15 in use as through platforms anyway.

Quite often yes, although not the case last night.


I don't know, I was going to say that the most surprising thing that happened was that someone in the TVSC must have actually over ridden the ARS for this to happen! Now that is a shock, S&TEngineer would never believe it!

Ah yes.  But that would probably have been at the request of GWR, so they take any delay minutes hit.  Still waiting for ARS to sort itself elsewhere (might be a very long wait;  bit like an ARS delayed train)......

Haven't you heard? NR have installed a Traffic Management system, 'Luminate'.  Now I have no evidence that this is what happened, but I've been led to believe that such a scenario is well within its capabilities; re-time and re-platform the Cardiff train, re-time the empty sleeper to terminate at Reading platform 13, and have the sleeper proper start there.  Two shakes of a mouse's tail, a few key-clicks here and there, the occasional "Out of Cheese" Error, and new timetables are downloaded to ARS for it to run the trains.

Looking back to last week on RTT the two services often used platforms 12 and 13.

As Industry Insider mentioned earlier this is quite common due to engineering work closing lines.

Yes, last week because the main lines were shut east of Reading, this week the relief lines are shut both east and west of Reading, meaning P9 should be used by the Cardiff

Out of interest what is open *west* of Reading.

? But last night was this week!

Keep very quiet .... but I think the Berks and Hants via Pewsey is actually open this week!

Ok, so last week, both the Cardiff and Penzance used P12/P13, the main lines were shut between Slough and Reading.

This week, which includes last night, the relief lines are shut between Slough (or further east) and Reading, the relief lines are also closed between Tilehurst and Didcot, meaning most if not all through trains, including the Cardiff and the Penzance are scheduled to use platforms 7-11. Services that are running on the main line through Twyford, and on the main line through Tilehurst are highly unlikely to be scheduled to use Platforms 12-15, though does happen occasionally.

Last night the Penzance was in P13 as it had only come from the depot and not from Paddington. The Cardiff would have been scheduled to use P8 or 9, but was presumably routed into P12 to allow sleepy passengers to cross platform.

Anyway, at least GWR/NR made the best of an unfortunate situation and common sense seemed to prevail all round

Indeed - although Pewsey lost its early morning service west this morning - albeit replaced by a special call on a service two hours later.

As you probably guessed I was thinking of the four track railway heading towards Didcot where invariably two of the four lines are closed.  (As the good people of Pangbourne no doubt notice!)

Tonight's down Night Riviera is starting from Reading rather than Paddington.

Make that Didcot Parkway.

Last night's down Night Riviera was terminated at Par. Brake problems.

Night of Tue Sep 11 into Wed Sep 12:

Failed between Somerton and Athelney with an oil leak.

Rescued to Taunton where its currently (at 0645) sat. No idea where the rescue traction came from. I suspect it may be terminated at Taunton. Either because it can't continue with rescue traction or because staff  are out of hours. Usual crew change is at Exeter around 0300.

Now on the move from Taunton 299 minutes late.

57604, the ECS loco, ran from Reading to Taunton and coupled on the front.

Hence why the up sleeper was terminated at Reading and passengers sent forward on a two car unit.

Now that's what I call a rude awakening!

On the assumption the rescuing loco started the night on the front of the sleeper from Penzance I wonder if the same loco has ever brought the down sleeper back into Penzance the next morning.

Are you sure?   I expect that the people on board were awake long before they got to Reading ... wonder what time that was ...

Arrrived Reading slightly early at 03:18 - replacement train left at 04:48 (23 minutes late).

Though at least those on the down service alighting at Exeter, Newton Abbot and Plymouth arrived in perfect time for breakfast.   ;)

I'm getting confused between up and down trains.  You would think for our sake they could arrange for the up and down problems to be on different nights so we don't get mixed up!

I think the up problem was as a result of the down problem - ie they needed the loco to rescue the failed service which was blocking the line.

Or would it have been that the loco that they attach at Reading was sent down to do the rescuing, which would have meant had the up sleeper continued to Paddington, there would have been no loco to pull it back out again?

Not related to last night.

Is it really a sustainable long term solution to have the Night Riviera stock shunted to and from Reading?

Far too easy for services to be regularly terminated or started from there. Operational convenience ahead of customer service.

The most succinct and accurate description of GWR I have yet seen...……….BNM there is a good marketing man lost in you!!!

With Old Oak Common rapidly disappearing, it is the nearest diesel depot to London unless GWR can negotiate access to the fuel lines at North Pole.  But there's also the need to tank the carriages and sort the linen.  I am not sure Hitachi would want all that going on around their site.

I believe it was the one that started the night on the rear at Paddington and would have been needed from Paddington to depot. They terminated at Reading so the depot shunter can bring the stock in.

Correct.  The sleeper stock would have occupied a platform at Paddington for the duration of the peak which would have inconvenienced far more people than those on the sleeper. 

A Turbo unit worked in place of the sleeper between Reading and Paddington. 

The 'Greenford' turbo that runs ECS from Reading to Paddington anyway having done the early morning stopper from Oxford

Especially as Platform 1 at Paddington was closed due to a signal failure for a while and platforms 4-6 affected by overhead line problems. 

21:45 Penzance to London Paddington due 05:03
25/09/18 21:45 Penzance to London Paddington due 05:03 is being delayed at Plymouth and is now expected to be 150 minutes late.
This is due to a fault on this train.

Arrived only 39 late
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C40039/2018/09/25/advanced

As HST.   ECS 5A40 on way to Reading

With the questionable reliability of the class 57s, the soon-to-be-surplus HSTs, and the fact that the sleeper stock is Mk3, is there any mileage in the idea of top-n-tailing the sleeper with Class 43 power cars?
Electrical systems are different between sleeper and day Mk3 stock, but that can't be an insurmountable problem.  This idea does, however, prevent the re-introduction of a Plymouth portion.

I recall a discussion along these lines in the past that suggested a major problem would be the wiring of the carriages - although they're Mk3 stock, the answer was that the electrics are far too different to convert them.  Whether wiring does make it really impossible, whether that just makes it very difficult indeed, or whether it was a convenient answer to kick an option into the long grass, I don't know.

Utopia for a TOC is a standard set of stock to run all of its services.  Nightmare is having every locomotive / unit different.  The ability to reduce your stock types by one must surely be tempting.  Given as the reason the slammers were pulled from Lymington. Yet I'm amazed at the switch away from class 153 on Stourbridge Town. Even the heritage lines find the same issues - noting the South Devon Railway's delight at getting a class 25 in place of a 37 recently on the grounds of "good - we have 2 of those already" - note - link needed and my report  may be accurate only in concept.

With the current sleeper stock nearing the end of a refurbishment programme I doubt they would want to start re-wiring them at this point.

Out of context - that reminds me of a fear I have about the relaying of Westbury North Junction by Network Rail - replacement of like for like when we have been screaming out for the provision of a track alongside the fourth platform.   When asked about passive provision, I'm told:

and

and I am, frankly, open mouthed in astonishment that "we" which is GWR are not aware of any proposals to deal with capacity.

And - here's what I suspect Bobm's thinking would be said if the replacement of 57s by 43s and associated rewiring was proposed in the near term ...


Perhaps that's also a convenient way of diverting requests to spend money - especially when some of that could (have been) saved by doing both things at once.

They don't seem to have worried too much about taking daytime services away for 60+ days this year ... mostly to do with a neighbouring line that TransWilts passengers rarely connect to ... so I'm sure another couple of weekends to enable services to actually connect at Westbury would be accepted ...

Surely it is not beyond the wit of man to produce a conversion lead to convert the electrical supply wiring from an HST power car to that at the other end to match the electrical supply wiring from a class 57.

I am old enough to remember when "square" pin plugs were introduced. My dad produced conversion leads with a round pin plug at one end and a "square" plug at the other when we moved from a council prefab to a new house.

Yes but square and round pin plugs still had three wires with the same 240 volts (in those days) AC and Earth. albeit the structure of the wiring behind it was different.  The wiring between the two power cars of an HST carry signals that control the engines use a system to carry these signals.  I do not know if there are the same number of wires as the class 57 work on the same voltage; or even if the class 57 have any control links when two of them work a single train, but even if they similar in that respect, a complex signal sometimes means the wires have to be made in a certain way (twisted or shielded or both and of a certain thickness and with a certain specification) for the signal to reach the other end in a recognisable form. 

I am sure there are others on here who know much more about it and can give a more informed answer.

The big difference between HST Mk 3s and LHCS ones is the auxiliary power supply. On LHCS stock (not just Mk 3s) this is DC (though they can cope with AC) at something in the range 700-1000 V. It gets converted by a motor/alternator set (originally) on each carriage to more useful supplies like 415/240 V AC and 28 V DC. In HSTs, the supply from the power car is at 415 V AC (3 phase). Since the train heating runs off the power as supplied, i.e. 750 V DC (nominal), you can't just wire one to the other. I'm assuming, in the absence of an actual document, that the sleeper stock is the same as LHCS Mk 3 day stock, apart from some updating (e.g. inverters to replace motor/generators).

Of course if you wanted to convert between these power supplies, there is no technical problem - boxes to do it are easily made these days. You'd just need to decide to do it and find the money.

The Paddington - Penzance arrived 128 minutes late having left Paddington 164 minutes late. I'm assuming that this was a late inbound of the empty stock and weather related.

I heard it got stopped by a fallen tree?

Depending on the severity of the winds a downed tree would probably count as weather related.

The Friday night Penzance to Paddington service is delayed due to a track safety inspection. Expected to leave 225 minutes late at 01:30 and drops Totness and Newton Abbot from the stops.
This is due to a safety inspection of the track.

Terminating at Reading 4 hours late.

Down service terminating at Plymouth this morning

And fit 36 way control to all the coaches, there is also an obstacle with the fire detection system and the electrical supply, the supply from an HST is variable (275v - 415v with the accompanying variation in Hz) and quite ‘dirty’ and it wasn’t deemed a viable option.

Seems to have continued later to Penzance ECS. Wonder what arrangements were made for the passengers?
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O49307/2018/10/19/advanced

Cross Country seem to have provided the replacement service;
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C76004/2018/10/19/advanced

Loco lost train supply at Exeter, sleeper coaches have to be taken out of service within 3 hours of that happening, as no air con and batteries will only supply lighting and essential systems for that long.

Was at Paddington last night heading out on to the Cotswolds. As I passed the sleeper on platform one there were two people looking in at a berth through a window where the blind was up. One of the two was explaining that you now had the option to convert between a bed and a sofa. The second said what's the point of that given the boarding time? The first said it's useful when some idiot brings down the power lines and there's big delays.  ;D

23:50 London Paddington to Penzance due 08:59
11/11/18 23:50 London Paddington to Penzance due 08:59 has been delayed at London Paddington and is now 180 minutes late.
This is due to a broken down train.
Last Updated:12/11/2018 03:05

Left Paddington 191 minute late.

Scheduled arrival at Penzance 08:59 (public timetable), 08:55 Working Timetable.
Journey Check suggest arrival will be at 11:59
Real Time Trains suggests arrival will be at 08:54

A failing with journey check is it doesn’t update to reflect recovery time. Once someone tells it, the train is 3 hours late it treats it as 3 hours late throughout.
I notice it lost a further 15 mins between Plymouth and saltash, and appears to have gone a different route to programmed on real-time. It disappeared between reading and Taunton!

Looking at JourneyCheck in the early hours of the morning, it looked as if it had left Paddington on time, got stuck behind the failed train, and then decided to go back to Paddington.

Bit of a lie-in!

21:45 Penzance to London Paddington due 05:19
12/11/18 21:45 Penzance to London Paddington due 05:19 will no longer call at Totnes and Newton Abbot.
It has been previously delayed, has been further delayed at Plymouth and is now 195 minutes late.
This is due to slippery rails.

According to RTT it lost 157 minutes between Lostwithiel and Largin and a further 20 before leaving Liskeard.

Ahh, the folly of not providing diesel traction with sanding equipment.

They did apply sand but still couldn't get sufficient grip.  The train was eventually helped through to Liskeard by the Rail Head Treatment Train which had been following it.

RTT showing the same times for 1A40 and RHTT  at Largin,

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/LRGN/2018/11/13/0146

Sand applied by hand to assist a stationary train is not much use but sand applied onto a slippery rail under a moving train does give it a fighting chance of getting where it has to go.

There is a light loco leaving Reading at 17:05 to run to Penzance - so obviously a problem with the Class 57 at Long Rock.

Lovely run for someone !

Seriously, the catalogue of incidents with the Night Riviera is a shame.  The investment in the service has been well done, and is much appreciated, but the reliability must be of some concern to everyone.

For some reason the light loco didn’t leave Reading until just before 19:00 and isn’t due into Penzance until midnight.

Sounds like a pretty miserable experience all round...………….

28/11/18 21:45 Penzance to London Paddington due 05:01 will be terminated at Reading High Level Jn.
It will no longer call at St Erth, Camborne, Redruth, St Austell, Par, Bodmin Parkway, Liskeard, Totnes, Newton Abbot and London Paddington.
It has been previously delayed and is now 147 minutes late from Taunton.
This is due to a fault on this train.
Additional Information

GWR apologies for the delay and alteration to this evenings Night Riveria sleeper service from Penzance to London Paddington.

The service will be subject to a late start from Penzance and will be terminated at Reading.

Ticket acceptance has been agreed with Cross Country on their 22:10 Penzance to Plymouth service for any customers who wish to travel to Plymouth to make use of the lounge facilities at the station and await the sleeper service.

On arrival at Reading, customers are advised to board the next available service towards London Paddington to complete their journey.

The 57s have got to be replaced but ooooooooz gonna pay for it?

I know it didn't but this made me smile - A nice walk down the hill

Not a good night for either Sleeper service. Replacement loco had to be sent down to Penzance from Reading so the Up left almost 3 hours late; missed most stops in Cornwall, Totqnes and Newton Abbot before terminating at Reading with further problems - whilst the Down started at Reading for similar reasons

Agreed - not a good night - but at least it ran.

The down sleeper now being delayed due to a fallen tree between Par and St Austell.

Reports of other fallen trees on the mainline in Cornwall too.

With all these starts and finishes at Reading - something to do with the lack of a 2nd main line locomotive at Reading.  No longer the option of using a class 08 to get the empty train into / out of Paddington?

They used it this morning to drag it in from Reading. I'm guessing they wouldn't want it dragged all the way from Paddington at 15mph, a lot of disruption.

1C99 after its disagreement with a tree:

(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/rps20181129_104032_zpszjekwmrh.jpg)
Picture credit: co-tr-paul RailUK Forums (https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-cornish-night-riviera-sleeper-and-gwr-class-57-updates-from-long-rock.127881/page-38#post-3755101)

That'll buff out. ;D

Tonight's down starts at Reading again and the up terminates at Reading but both due to be away on time.

…...alternatively you could sleep at home and fly from Newquay to Gatwick or from Exeter to London City in the morning in just over an hour.

The loco scheduled to drag to and fro Paddington was the one sent light engined to Penzance, leaving nothing to do the Paddington dead pull.

I really wouldn't fancy having to get out on 03:59 at Reading to get on another train on to London ... and would hope to be able to get to sleep before 00:45 in the other direction.

Same here...  does kind of defeat the object of a 'sleeper'

Very poor indeed.
The whole point of a sleeper, is being able to sleep for the whole journey, or for whichever portion of the journey that one desires.
Being able to board the sleeper in good time, and take refreshment  or go straight to bed should be part of it.
A connecting service requiring a change at Reading is really not on. Barely acceptable under exceptional or emergency conditions, but not as a regular feature as is occurring.

A cynic like me might suspect that GWR are trying to get rid of the sleeper. They cant just remove it, as sleeper provision is a franchise requirement.
If however enough passengers can be deterred by the need to change trains at Reading and loose a couple of hours sleep, then revenue might drop enough to be able to remove the service in future.