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All across the Great Western territory => Fare's Fair => Topic started by: Chris from Nailsea on January 09, 2015, 00:29:51



Title: Trainline rail ticket firm in ^500m stock market flotation
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on January 09, 2015, 00:29:51
From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-30726532):

Quote
Trainline rail ticket firm in ^500m stock market flotation

Trainline, the online rail booking system, is to float on the London Stock Market in a deal expected to value the business at about ^500m.

The company's private equity owners, which bought the business in 2006 for about ^160m, want to list in February.

Trainline started life in 1997 as a division of Virgin Rail, selling tickets through a call centre.

The value of ticket sales last year was ^978.1m, and Trainline said its apps have been downloaded 7.4 million times.

Private equity owners Exponent, Harbourvest and Northwestern Mutual Life Assurance will sell off part of their stakes in the business.

As part of the flotation they want to raise about ^75m to pay off existing debt and settle bank costs and fees.

Clare Gilmartin, chief executive of Trainline, said: "We are witnessing continued strong growth in rail and, having experienced first-hand the transformative effect of online and mobile in other e-commerce markets, I am hugely excited by the opportunity that the fast-developing online rail market offers."

The owners of Trainline attempted to sell the business in 2012 for around ^400m, with private equity firm KKR widely reported as a possible bidder.


Title: Re: Trainline rail ticket firm in ^500m stock market flotation
Post by: BerkshireBugsy on January 09, 2015, 07:34:55
Out of curiosity when a company such as trainline sells tickets what is the commission model ? Is it a percentage of the ticket price or does it vary per TOC (or a combination of both)?


Title: Re: Trainline rail ticket firm in ^500m stock market flotation
Post by: JayMac on January 09, 2015, 07:47:44
The following document from ATOC should answer your questions:

RAIL INDUSTRY COMMISSION RATES (http://www.atoctravelagents.org/clientfiles/File/RAIL%20INDUSTRY%20COMMISSION%20RATES%20TO%2031%20MAR%202016.pdf) (.pdf file)

TA: Travel Agents
TMC: Travel Management Companies
BTS: A train company's own Business Travel Sales
TSA: Ticketing and Settlement Agreement (http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/files/RSPDocuments/TSA%20V9_4%20-%20Main%20Agreement%20%28Volume%201%29.pdf) (.pdf file)
RSP: Rail Settlement Plan (http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-settlement-plan/)

The Office of Rail Regulation also recently conducted a Retail Market Review. Its Executive Summary said:

Quote
While use of the railways continues to grow, the way passengers buy tickets and the format of these tickets is changing, and is set to change further. Passengers are buying more tickets from retailers that aren^t a train company. There is also increased demand, which is beginning to be realised, for smarter and more flexible ticketing. We welcome industry^s effort to respond to these changes. For the future, it is essential that the regulation and industry arrangements and practices for ticket selling keep up with this change and, in particular, enable the market to offer passengers value for money, choice and quality that suits their different needs. Our initial consideration of the retail market for ticket selling suggests that the arrangements and practices protect passengers; provide convenience and flexibility to passengers by facilitating the benefits of an integrated, national network; enable retailers to collaborate to improve their service; and provide clarity to new entrants, thus encouraging new parties to sell tickets. However, there may also be some issues with the current approach. The cost of regulation and industry arrangements to facilitate an integrated, national network don^t fully reflect those retailers who make use of and benefit from the integrated nature of the network; they may inhibit innovation at the expense of improved services to customers; they may constrain retailers^ commercial flexibility in how they sell tickets; and they may create a conflict of interest among retailers. We welcome stakeholders^ views to help us assess what^s relevant and material. We intend to follow-up with a second consultation in early spring 2015, with potential recommendations to capture the opportunities and address the issues, where necessary.

The full review can be read at the following link:
http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/14596/retail-market-review-consultation-september-2014.pdf

The Association of Train Operating Companies' (ATOC) response to the review can be read here:
http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0012/15312/retail-market-review-sep14-atoc.pdf


Title: Re: Trainline rail ticket firm in ^500m stock market flotation
Post by: BerkshireBugsy on January 09, 2015, 08:00:51
The following document from ATOC should answer your questions:

RAIL INDUSTRY COMMISSION RATES (http://www.atoctravelagents.org/clientfiles/File/RAIL%20INDUSTRY%20COMMISSION%20RATES%20TO%2031%20MAR%202016.pdf) (.pdf file)

TA: Travel Agents
TMC: Travel Management Companies
TSA: Ticketing and Settlement Agreement (http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/files/RSPDocuments/TSA%20V9_4%20-%20Main%20Agreement%20%28Volume%201%29.pdf) (.pdf file)
RSP: Rail Settlement Plan (http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-settlement-plan/)

Thanks bnm - I was expectng a complex and long document but that is very clear and concise


Title: Re: Trainline rail ticket firm in ^500m stock market flotation
Post by: JayMac on January 09, 2015, 08:06:53
Do note my subsequent edits though. Plenty more reading if you want to!


Title: Re: Trainline rail ticket firm in ^500m stock market flotation
Post by: trainer on January 09, 2015, 09:32:54
As a simple soul when it comes to buying train tickets, I wonder why anyone would want to pay a charge for such a purchase when the same product is available with no charge from another retailer, the most obvious being the TOCs.  I know there are variations in charges for ticket delivery if you wish to have them sent to your home and I have decided which ones to avoid should I require that option as opposed to collecting from a machine.

Is it like the directory enquiries situation, where people use the most heavily advertised services which tend to be the most expensive, not knowing that there is a cheaper alternative?  Clearly Trainline has a commercial value (and thanks BNM for your helpful addition to my knowledge), but other companies using their systems retail without a charge.  I'd be interested in what others think.


Title: Re: Trainline rail ticket firm in ^500m stock market flotation
Post by: Tim K on January 09, 2015, 12:54:37
I had exactly the same thoughts - I stopped using thetrainline a long time ago because they started charging and recently stopped using redspottedhanky for the same reason.

I think it will be similar to the directory enquiries businesses, infrequent users will use the most heavily advertised services and more regular ticket buyers will use other companies which don't charge a fee.  I wonder if that's mentioned in the prospectus?


Title: Re: Trainline rail ticket firm in ^500m stock market flotation
Post by: grahame on January 09, 2015, 18:28:17
Interestingly, we (community in these parts of Wiltshire) played with the idea of setting up agency a la Llandrindod Wells, and Chester-le-train, as the TransWilts improvements came along.   Idea being to make a profit and plough that back into community support for the service.  One big "selling point" was local community support, another that we wondered about giving personal advise on best way to legally make a journey.  However, with potential unhappyness for official quarters if we were to recommend things like split tickets, with the coming of TVMs to a couple of stations where they've not had them, with a drop from the 9% to 5% category being probable (out of which credit card fees come), with the need for expert staff, with less income on season tickets, with significant overheads and running costs it was an idea that wasn't followed seriously through.   And, yes, postage and credit card fees would have been an option to cover the aded values of advise and to let people know they were making a local contribution.


Title: Re: Trainline rail ticket firm in ^500m stock market flotation
Post by: Brucey on January 09, 2015, 21:37:57
I asked my stockbroker to send through the floatation documents.  Some interesting figures in there.

Market Share:
Consumer Online Sales 38%
B2B Online Sales 41%
TOC Branded Websites 43%

Breakdown of Net Group Ticket Sales:
Consumer 46%
B2B 23%
TOC Solutions 31%

Gross Profit:
Consumer 64%
B2B 15%
TOC Solutions 21%

This bit under "Key Risks" proved to be interesting reading
Quote
If the Group is unable to charge some or all of the booking and other fees that it charges to the customers of its Consumer business, or if such fees are subject to reduction or mandated caps, the Group may not be able to generate profit at current levels or at all, which could have a material adverse effect on its business, financial condition and results of operations.


Title: Re: Trainline rail ticket firm in ^500m stock market flotation
Post by: Timmer on January 10, 2015, 07:21:20
Judging by the value being place on Trainline, it would appear that the message of not being charged when you use a TOC's booking site regardless of where you are travelling is not getting through.

Do Trainline still provide the booking service for Virgin? That would provide a fair chunk of their profits if they do.


Title: Re: Trainline rail ticket firm in ^500m stock market flotation
Post by: Super Guard on January 10, 2015, 17:47:08
I asked the question once of a Director of why we don't trumpet the fact we don't charge unlike the trainline.. The response is that a TOC's marketing budget doesn't justify the cost that TTL pay for all their advertising.

However, I think the advertising labels that have appeared in the coaches are supposed to help advertise no booking fees.

The clever marketing from TTL gives the impression that only they have access to these magical savings...

I personally think all the TOCs should chip in and run adverts on TV with no booking fees across the UK, but then I have no idea on the cost/benefit.


Title: Re: Trainline rail ticket firm in ^500m stock market flotation
Post by: Brucey on January 10, 2015, 17:50:07
I asked the question once of a Director of why we don't trumpet the fact we don't charge unlike the trainline.. The response is that a TOC's marketing budget doesn't justify the cost that TTL pay for all their advertising.

However, I think the advertising labels that have appeared in the coaches are supposed to help advertise no booking fees.
Southern tried something similar on-board their trains.  This also extended to a message on the PIS display, including the website address and the comment that there are no booking fees.

I have also seen similar "targeted" ads online boasting that Southern don't charge booking fees.  Not seen anything recently though, so I question whether it was a success.


Title: Re: Trainline rail ticket firm in ^500m stock market flotation
Post by: ChrisB on January 11, 2015, 18:10:53
I suspect that there may be some 'agreement' between the TrainLine (who run the TOCs ticketing sections of their websites) & the TOCs about the TOCs not blatently advertising no booking fees. But I could be surprised and be wrong. Otherwise, why haven't they done so? It's a no-brainer.


Title: Re: Trainline rail ticket firm in ^500m stock market flotation
Post by: JayMac on January 11, 2015, 18:38:13
CrossCountry, a trainline customer, are quite blatant in their 'no booking fees' advertising. Such a strapline appears on all their advertisements for their online booking service.

I do find it mildly amusing when TOCs say things like, "we won't charge a booking fee" in their advertising. The truth is they can't. The Ticketing and Settlement Agreement, which all operators have to abide by, expressly disallows them to charge booking fees for ticket retailing through any medium.


Title: Re: Trainline rail ticket firm in ^500m stock market flotation
Post by: Super Guard on January 11, 2015, 19:05:20
I suspect that there may be some 'agreement' between the TrainLine (who run the TOCs ticketing sections of their websites) & the TOCs about the TOCs not blatently advertising no booking fees. But I could be surprised and be wrong. Otherwise, why haven't they done so? It's a no-brainer.

It's a no-brainer if you have the same marketing budget as TTL.  Company with short-term franchise extension vs company with long term business plan likely to yield different figures don't you think?


Title: Re: Trainline rail ticket firm in ^500m stock market flotation
Post by: readytostart on January 12, 2015, 19:40:11
CrossCountry, a trainline customer, are quite blatant in their 'no booking fees' advertising. Such a strapline appears on all their advertisements for their online booking service.

Of course, having no stations of their own it's an effort to maximise revenue, as is the charge they do levy to pick up tickets from a TVM when print at home or mobile tickets are available for that journey.


Title: Re: Trainline rail ticket firm in ^500m stock market flotation
Post by: ellendune on January 13, 2015, 05:37:37
But surely it is in all customers interests for them to advertise that they do not charge a booking fee.


Title: Re: Trainline rail ticket firm in ^500m stock market flotation
Post by: grahame on January 13, 2015, 06:30:17
I suspect that there may be some 'agreement' between the TrainLine (who run the TOCs ticketing sections of their websites) & the TOCs about the TOCs not blatently advertising no booking fees. But I could be surprised and be wrong. Otherwise, why haven't they done so? It's a no-brainer.

But surely it is in all customers interests for them to advertise that they do not charge a booking fee.

You could both be right.   Or it could be that the train companies in general feel that the particular "no booking fee" small print is somewhere they don't want to go, perhaps with the thought that The TrainLine brings lots of non-rail passengers to trains and is a good thing for them as a whole due to that extra marketing.


Title: Re: Trainline rail ticket firm in ^500m stock market flotation
Post by: grahame on January 22, 2015, 21:26:31
From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-30726532):

Quote
Trainline rail ticket firm in ^500m stock market flotation

Trainline, the online rail booking system, is to float on the London Stock Market in a deal expected to value the business at about ^500m.


And "all change" from the Guardian:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jan/22/thetrainlinecom-krr-equity-firm-ipo-exponent?

Quote
The American private equity fund KKR has bought the British train ticket website thetrainline.com, derailing its planned float on the London stock market.


Title: Re: Trainline rail ticket firm in £500m stock market flotation
Post by: grahame on December 01, 2019, 15:52:04
From the Daily Mail (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/news/article-7741553/Labour-plotting-ticket-rival-Trainline-Corbyns-one-stop-shop-decimate-UK-tech-titan.html)

Quote
The Labour Party is preparing to launch a direct rival to Trainline as part of its nationalisation plans in a move that could 'decimate' the rail ticket-selling giant's business.

The Mail on Sunday can reveal that if Labour gets into power it would create a 'one-stop shop' for rail passengers to buy tickets online without booking fees.

It would create major competition for third-party ticket sellers such as Trainline, which floated on the London Stock Exchange in the summer and has grown into one of Britain's largest technology companies with a £2.2 billion valuation.


Title: Re: Trainline rail ticket firm in £500m stock market flotation
Post by: TaplowGreen on December 01, 2019, 16:03:25
From the Daily Mail (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/news/article-7741553/Labour-plotting-ticket-rival-Trainline-Corbyns-one-stop-shop-decimate-UK-tech-titan.html)

Quote
The Labour Party is preparing to launch a direct rival to Trainline as part of its nationalisation plans in a move that could 'decimate' the rail ticket-selling giant's business.

The Mail on Sunday can reveal that if Labour gets into power it would create a 'one-stop shop' for rail passengers to buy tickets online without booking fees.

It would create major competition for third-party ticket sellers such as Trainline, which floated on the London Stock Exchange in the summer and has grown into one of Britain's largest technology companies with a £2.2 billion valuation.

It would be a great deal better if they simplified all the fares so that everyone could work out as to whether they are getting the best deal.


Title: Re: Trainline rail ticket firm in ^500m stock market flotation
Post by: rogerw on December 01, 2019, 21:42:04
Why create a new company.  The existing TOCs offer a service equal to Trainline without fees


Title: Re: Trainline rail ticket firm in ^500m stock market flotation
Post by: johnneyw on December 01, 2019, 22:18:48
Why create a new company.  The existing TOCs offer a service equal to Trainline without fees

My very thoughts but the opposition's stated aims of re-nationalizing the railways might stop all that.


Title: Re: Trainline rail ticket firm in ^500m stock market flotation
Post by: stuving on December 01, 2019, 22:24:37
Why create a new company.  The existing TOCs offer a service equal to Trainline without fees

My very thoughts but the opposition's stated aims of re-nationalizing the railways might stop all that.

I think that's the point. I can't find this as an actual policy proposal - so it looks like the qustion was asked about what nationailisation would do to the sales process, and someone at Labour spotted an opportunity. By saying the process would be simplified - which must be true at least in the sense that the step "choose sales outlet" gets scrapped - it gives the impression of doing something about the complexity of fares without actually finding a solution to that knotty problem.


Title: Re: Trainline rail ticket firm in ^500m stock market flotation
Post by: grahame on December 01, 2019, 22:26:38
Why create a new company.  The existing TOCs offer a service equal to Trainline without fees

My very thoughts but the opposition's stated aims of re-nationalizing the railways might stop all that.

I have to wonder if we might find our trains run by DfT OLR Holdings Limited (https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/dft-olr-holdings-limited) rather than First from 1st April 2020 should we have a Labour government replace the current one.


Title: Re: Trainline rail ticket firm in ^500m stock market flotation
Post by: TaplowGreen on December 02, 2019, 05:35:44
Seems to be part of a wider policy as part of the magic money tree.....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50621621


Title: Re: Trainline rail ticket firm in ^500m stock market flotation
Post by: ChrisB on December 02, 2019, 09:10:49
I have to wonder if we might find our trains run by DfT OLR Holdings Limited (https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/dft-olr-holdings-limited) rather than First from 1st April 2020 should we have a Labour government replace the current one.

I think you can stop wondering....it's more likely than that.


Title: Re: Trainline rail ticket firm in ^500m stock market flotation
Post by: ellendune on December 02, 2019, 21:13:53
Seems to be part of a wider policy as part of the magic money tree.....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50621621

Whose magic money all parties seem to have found them. 


Title: Re: Trainline rail ticket firm in ^500m stock market flotation
Post by: Timmer on December 03, 2019, 11:00:29
Whose magic money all parties seem to have found them. 
Indeed, though some are bigger than others.


Title: Re: Trainline rail ticket firm in ^500m stock market flotation
Post by: TaplowGreen on December 03, 2019, 12:47:03
Whose magic money all parties seem to have found them. 
Indeed, though some are bigger than others.

.......and have branches everywhere....


Title: Re: Trainline rail ticket firm in ^500m stock market flotation
Post by: ellendune on December 03, 2019, 21:54:11
I have to wonder if we might find our trains run by DfT OLR Holdings Limited (https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/dft-olr-holdings-limited) rather than First from 1st April 2020 should we have a Labour government replace the current one.

I think you can stop wondering....it's more likely than that.

Keep wondering - a Labour Government doesn't seem that likely!


Title: Re: Trainline rail ticket firm in ^500m stock market flotation
Post by: grahame on April 09, 2020, 17:38:48
From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-30726532):

Quote
Clare Gilmartin, chief executive of Trainline, said: "We are witnessing continued strong growth in rail and, having experienced first-hand the transformative effect of online and mobile in other e-commerce markets, I am hugely excited by the opportunity that the fast-developing online rail market offers."

From This is money (https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-8205005/Trainline-boss-pay-cut-half-travel-restrictions-cause-rail-journeys-plunge.html)

Quote
Trainline boss has her pay cut in half as travel restrictions cause a plunge in rail journeys and stations to empty
* Clare Gilmartin scooped a fortune of over £50million following Trainline's IPO
* Rail journeys are about 95 per cent lower compared to this time last year
* Trainline says since it went public, ticket sales and profits have gone up

The head of rail ticket firm Trainline Claire Gilmartin has agreed to have her salary reduced by 50 per cent as the government lockdown causes passenger rail numbers to plummet across the UK.

Those on the board of directors and management meanwhile will have their take-home pay drop by 20 per cent, while bonuses for the executive directors and management team have been postponed.

The company has been severely impacted by the coronavirus pandemic, which has forced governments to introduce controls on travelling and social distancing.


etc




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