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Journey by Journey => Bristol (WECA) Commuters => Topic started by: Chris from Nailsea on January 13, 2015, 12:39:48 am



Title: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on January 13, 2015, 12:39:48 am
From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-30775854):

Quote
Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in ^21m revamp

(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/80203000/jpg/_80203286_brunelmileviewtostation.jpg)
A public square will be created at the entrance of Temple Meads railway station if the proposals are accepted

A main route into Bristol is set to undergo a major revamp under proposals put forward by Bristol City Council.

The Temple Circus roundabout close to Temple Meads station will be built over and replaced with a public square and a more direct route into the city.

A city council spokesman said the new square would "give life to the area day and night".

The council has said the plans are part of a wider ^21m development across the Temple Quarter Enterprise Zone.

Plans for the revamp involve:
- Creating a single wide crossing point to replace three road crossings between the station and Brunel Mile
- Clearer public transport signs and a new Metrobus stop
- New cycle routes to connect with cycle paths being built on Clarence Road, Cattlemarket Road and to the rest of the Bristol cycle network

An exhibition of the plans will be held at the Engine Shed from Tuesday, 13 January until Friday, 30 January.

The deadline for the public consultation is 18 February, 2015.

(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/80204000/jpg/_80204983_79600cd6-d10d-4588-888d-dbd6a12dbc12.jpg)
Temple Circus roundabout, which is very close to Temple Meads station will be replaced under the plans

(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/80205000/jpg/_80205424_templegateproposalplan-consultationversionjanuarysda.jpg)
The new road layout will see a road straight into Bristol city centre and new pedestrian crossings



Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: bignosemac on January 13, 2015, 12:59:00 am
Much more information on the project, including details of public exhibitions and consultations, can be found at:

http://www.bristoltemplequarter.com/gate


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on January 13, 2015, 10:14:03 am
Looks good!

I had fun filling in the survey - took the opportunity to highlight the similarities between the outgoing Temple Circus Gyratory (a failed, expensive, poorly-designed junction which was built despite a significant weight of informed opinion suggesting that a crossroads would have been better) with Metrobus (which the new plans seek to accommodate).





Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: TonyK on January 13, 2015, 09:13:15 pm
The artist's impression is typical of Bristol projects - just missing a few palm trees, a unicycling unicorn, somebody in a bikini...

...and end-to-end nose-to-tail traffic.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: johnneyw on January 15, 2015, 08:15:28 pm
Looks good!

I had fun filling in the survey - took the opportunity to highlight the similarities between the outgoing Temple Circus Gyratory (a failed, expensive, poorly-designed junction which was built despite a significant weight of informed opinion suggesting that a crossroads would have been better) with Metrobus (which the new plans seek to accommodate).

Went and filled in the survey too. Doubt if they will include an outdoor roller disco though!




Edit note: Quote marks fixed, for clarity. CfN.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Surrey 455 on January 15, 2015, 10:45:37 pm
took the opportunity to highlight the similarities between the outgoing Temple Circus Gyratory (a failed, expensive, poorly-designed junction which was built despite a significant weight of informed opinion suggesting that a crossroads would have been better) with Metrobus

Is Metrobus...
  • A bus company in Crawley that also runs some Tfl routes? www.metrobus.co.uk
  • A type of bus popular in the 1980's? https://flic.kr/p/eb1q4j
  • Other?

Note I deliberately chose a picture of a route that I used to be quite familiar with.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: TonyK on January 17, 2015, 11:10:45 am
Is Metrobus...
  • A bus company in Crawley that also runs some Tfl routes? www.metrobus.co.uk
  • A type of bus popular in the 1980's? https://flic.kr/p/eb1q4j
  • Other?


The answer is:
  • Other

Quote
MetroBust n. A white elephant project designed to compensate for the failure of local authorities to agree on a tram route. Initially promising "A tram-like experience in high quality vehicles on segregated routes", it is now offering a bus-like experience in a bus-like bus on a road-like road, all for a ruinous ^200 million-plus.

Notes to describe context: Its most ardent supporter is Bristol's Cabinet member for Transport Cllr Mark Bradshaw. He has heaped praise on it, describing it as "...a lame duck project with virtually zero public support". Other prominent champions of MetroBust include Mayor George Ferguson, who paid gushing tribute to the scheme, describing it as "Flawed - a project chasing funds rather than a project worthy of funding", before saying he would ask to use the money for rail-based transport projects instead.
(Definition is from the Bristol Dictionary of Parallel Logic)


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on July 19, 2018, 11:45:33 am
For them as finds this kind of thing entertaining, here is a drone's-eye view of the future road layout outside Temple Meads: https://youtu.be/RXsDo_mYRfc

Apparently it's all been delayed because they discovered the wrong kind of cellar when they got their diggers out... see, it's not just 'the railway' that cocks this kind of thing up. It's almost like it would be quite a good idea for someone to record where all the services were buried - if only we had access to the kind of technology that would make that cheap and easy.

Quote
Council apologises for extended Temple Circus roadworks

Major works to improve the Temple Circus junction have been extended due to unforeseen problems on the site.

The scheme is now due to be completed in autumn 2019 following a series of unexpected discoveries under the road – unrecorded electricity cables and water pipes as well as uncharted cellars under the roundabout and Victoria Street – all requiring major change to the planned programme. The installation of heat networks, vital to meeting the city’s carbon reduction targets, have also added an extra layer of complexity to the project, making progress slower than expected.

Source: Bristol Temple Quarter (https://www.bristoltemplequarter.com/council-apologises-for-extended-temple-circus-roadworks/)



Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: TonyK on July 19, 2018, 02:13:53 pm
Better safe than sorry with those cellars. A JCB suffering what physicists would describe as "a rapid decrease in potential energy" is something to be avoided.

Heat networks? I knew nothing of that.  Are we having combined heat and power on the site?


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: WelshBluebird on July 19, 2018, 02:21:49 pm
I wonder what the initial completion date was supposed to be for this? The fact it is going to take over a year from now to finish it seems a bit nuts considering how long the work seems to have been going on for.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: stuving on July 19, 2018, 02:46:50 pm
Heat networks? I knew nothing of that.  Are we having combined heat and power on the site?

What? have you never heard of the City Council's Energy Service Bristo (https://www.energyservicebristol.co.uk/)l? Or The Energy Service (https://www.bristol.gov.uk/policies-plans-strategies/the-energy-service) (which is probably the same thing, though it's hard to tell that or much else from their web pages)?


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Bmblbzzz on July 19, 2018, 03:53:05 pm
I can't speak for FTN, obviously, but it's certainly the first I've heard of it. CHP is generally a good thing (I think) but it's not clear from this https://www.energyservicebristol.co.uk/business/heat-networks/ that the heat network they speak of is actually CHP – it sounds more like district heating.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on July 19, 2018, 05:54:05 pm
I can't speak for FTN, obviously, but it's certainly the first I've heard of it. CHP is generally a good thing (I think) but it's not clear from this https://www.energyservicebristol.co.uk/business/heat-networks/ that the heat network they speak of is actually CHP – it sounds more like district heating.

Maybe that's what Marv has up his sleeve - instead of the Arenal, we're getting a CHP power station fuelled by unicorn farts.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: SandTEngineer on July 19, 2018, 06:14:30 pm
I can't speak for FTN, obviously, but it's certainly the first I've heard of it. CHP is generally a good thing (I think) but it's not clear from this https://www.energyservicebristol.co.uk/business/heat-networks/ that the heat network they speak of is actually CHP – it sounds more like district heating.

Maybe that's what Marv has up his sleeve - instead of the Arenal, we're getting a CHP power station fuelled by unicorn farts.
Please don't make posts like that when I'm drinking my cup of tea...….


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: martyjon on July 19, 2018, 06:40:19 pm
Hope this CHP (Combined Heat & Power) Network will be better maintained than New York's, when I was last there in a winter month walking along the sidewalks it was unpleasant keep having to walk through clouds of steam escaping from the network through sidewalk grills where the CHP was connected to a building.

Best to cut pollution in Bristol City Centre is introduce a congestion zone.

Years ago waiting for a bus home outside the Colston Tower, 3 DPD courier vans with each driver delivering just 1 parcel each was parked on either double yellow lines or in the "BUS STOP" area with two City Parking Wardens standing nearby, so close to me that I was able to shout to them, "Why don't you book them" as the bus arrived and couldn't get into the bus stop. Their reply. "They'd only appeal the ticket and have it cancelled".


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: stuving on July 19, 2018, 07:07:04 pm
Here's a bit more explaining (https://www.bristoltemplequarter.com/heat-networks-an-update/) from another BCC offshoot, the Temple Quarter. Note that it dates from two years ago, so the Broughton House energy center has been running since before that. Part of this says:
Quote
How do energy centres work?
Energy centres work in much the same way a building’s plant room operates – but consolidate the heating (and occasionally power) needs of neighbouring buildings. This approach has several benefits, including:
  • Reducing the space required for HVAC (heating and cooling) plant within the buildings themselves, including boilers and associated infrastructure;
  • More efficient generation of heat and power, due to larger and more constant demands. Not only does this result in cheaper sources of energy for connected buildings, but it can improve local air quality (compared to individual heating systems).
  • Larger energy requirements allow a greater choice of technologies – whilst gas boilers are suitable in single homes, some larger and renewable sources of heat and power need larger steadier demands to run efficiently.
The energy centres themselves can be installed in existing buildings, such as the 1MW wood pellet boiler installed in Broughton House just outside the Enterprise Zone. They could also be installed in new bespoke buildings, as is often done in major new developments; or the final option is temporary energy centres, for instance having a portable boiler or combined heat and power (CHP) plant within a refurbished shipping container (similar to those close to Engine Shed by Bristol Temple Meads).

So what Broughton House has is an oversized boiler burning wood pellets - not CHP as all, and as for "low carbon"....


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on July 19, 2018, 07:44:34 pm
...another BCC offshoot, the Temple Quarter.

Not really a BCC offshoot; it's an Enterprize Zone (https://enterprisezones.communities.gov.uk/about-enterprise-zones/) - I think you could describe it as more-or-less a Quango.

And Broughton House, I think, you could more-or-less describe as a block of flats.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: bignosemac on July 20, 2018, 12:47:43 am
I think you could describe it as more-or-less a Quango.

A fizzy orange drink?  :P


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on July 20, 2018, 08:53:19 am
I think you could describe it as more-or-less a Quango.

A fizzy orange drink?  :P

Near enough. https://youtu.be/CroeBR_xMQY


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Western Pathfinder on July 21, 2018, 12:50:15 pm
And Now This .
http://news.bristol.gov.uk/work_to_transform_bristol_s_temple_meads_station_gets.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: SandTEngineer on July 21, 2018, 01:19:16 pm
When I first read it I thought they were suggesting demolishing the existing station.....then...phew... ::) :P


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on July 21, 2018, 10:48:20 pm
Apparently Marv's plan is to relocate Bristol's main railway station to a new location near Stoke Gifford...


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: eXPassenger on July 22, 2018, 10:22:37 am
Apparently Marv's plan is to relocate Bristol's main railway station to a new location near Stoke Gifford...

He could then use the space freed up for an arena.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on July 22, 2018, 10:47:19 am
Apparently Marv's plan is to relocate Bristol's main railway station to a new location near Stoke Gifford...

He could then use the space freed up for an arena.

...before retiring to his dacha near Thornbury.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: martyjon on July 22, 2018, 11:14:36 am
Apparently Marv's plan is to relocate Bristol's main railway station to a new location near Stoke Gifford...
He could then use the space freed up for an arena.

Marv has closed all the cities public loos coz the council cant afford the million or so needed to keep them open, where is he going to get the billions to buy the vacated land from Network Rail / BR Residuary Board, a loan from the Chinese to which he seems to be very fond of cosying up to ? Perhaps he wants the Temple Meads location to be Bristol's main underground railway interchange point instead.

Since he has been mayor I have noticed a marked deterioration in the cleanliness of the cities streets with some streets and footpaths not yet relieved of last autumns leaf drop.

Just take a peep at the masses of vegetation growing up from the concrete constructions on the M32 into the city, hardly a good advertisement for the city or should it be the city for not pestering Highways England to get it removed.

Being born a Bristolian I am increasingly becoming ashamed of the city I have lived in or near for all my life with the elected politicians seemingly doing nowt to improve it yet all too willing to holding their hands out for their councillors allowances and all the other perks available to them. I have heard comments in City Hall. "Is there a lunchtime buffet for your meeting". "No". "I wont be staying on then".

One of the worst things Westminster did was when they allowed councillors to be paid an attendance allowance for attending meetings, when I was a councillor we didn't get anything as a right although we could apply for reasonable out of pocket expenses which had to go to a committee consisting of political party leaders, council chairperson, staff member of treasury department but in them days we stood at elections for the privilege of serving the people of the community in which you lived.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Bmblbzzz on July 22, 2018, 11:42:57 am
Quote
It already receives around 10 million passengers a year and this is expected to rise to more than 22 million by 2030,
Blimey!


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Noggin on July 23, 2018, 03:37:57 pm
IIRC, the land to the north of the station is owned by the Homes & Communities Agency, the land next to Bristol & Exeter House is owned by Skanska (unless they have sold it to the Council), and most of the island in the middle of the gyratory system is owned by the Council, although the old hotel is not.

The old Royal Mail site is currently owned by the Council too - I think the deal is that the Council demolish the Royal Mail building and thus absolve the University of any liability.

The plans for the replacement of the gyratory system proposed that the current station approach would end up pedestrianised, with an Engine Shed II complex where the old hotel is now.

Apart from that it's probably safe to say that subject to someone agreeing to pay for it:

1) There will be a new station building/shopping centre/car park on the HCA land to the north of the station with as large an office block on top of it as they can get away with.
2) There will be an eastern entrance into Temple Meads (although I don't think there was anything in the University's master plan)
3) The old trainshed platforms will be reinstated (albeit after the signal box is removed and foot traffic re-routed)

The 11,000 new homes are presumably going on the land around Avon Street on the east side of the river, which presumably will be a nice little earner for the Council if it owns any of the land.   

 


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: TonyK on July 24, 2018, 10:35:30 am
I think you could describe it as more-or-less a Quango.

A fizzy orange drink?  :P

It takes two to Quango.

Marv has closed all the cities public loos coz the council cant afford the million or so needed to keep them open, where is he going to get the billions to buy the vacated land from Network Rail / BR Residuary Board, a loan from the Chinese to which he seems to be very fond of cosying up to ?

How dare you make such an inflammatory comment!!! They're Malaysian. :)

The 11,000 new homes are presumably going on the land around Avon Street on the east side of the river, which presumably will be a nice little earner for the Council if it owns any of the land.   

It will still be a decent earner even if the council doesn't own it. The Community Infrastructure Levy for inner Bristol is £70 per square metre. That's around £5000 for a modest dwelling, or £55 million for 11,000 modest dwellings. Then there's all that lovely council tax.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on July 24, 2018, 12:33:45 pm
It will still be a decent earner even if the council doesn't own it. The Community Infrastructure Levy for inner Bristol is £70 per square metre. That's around £5000 for a modest dwelling, or £55 million for 11,000 modest dwellings. Then there's all that lovely council tax.

Interesting, isn't it - in the fifties and sixties, councils were keen to knock down houses to build light industrial units and roads; any prestigious city was proud of how their really big road systems connected the widget factories to low-density worker hutches in the suburbs. Now they've realised that by replacing those roads and now-derelict sheds with high-density houses, they can raise more revenue and make highly-desirable and liveable places; places that are, in many ways, similar to what was there before... If only someone could think of a way to allow people to move in and out of these areas without needing a car, the job would be a good 'un...

https://youtu.be/zyeMFSzPgGc



Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Bmblbzzz on July 24, 2018, 01:48:18 pm
If the figure of 11,000 new dwellings is correct, that's the quota Marvin promised us and a bit extra in one go.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Noggin on July 24, 2018, 02:38:24 pm
It will still be a decent earner even if the council doesn't own it. The Community Infrastructure Levy for inner Bristol is £70 per square metre. That's around £5000 for a modest dwelling, or £55 million for 11,000 modest dwellings. Then there's all that lovely council tax.

Interesting, isn't it - in the fifties and sixties, councils were keen to knock down houses to build light industrial units and roads; any prestigious city was proud of how their really big road systems connected the widget factories to low-density worker hutches in the suburbs. Now they've realised that by replacing those roads and now-derelict sheds with high-density houses, they can raise more revenue and make highly-desirable and liveable places; places that are, in many ways, similar to what was there before... If only someone could think of a way to allow people to move in and out of these areas without needing a car, the job would be a good 'un...

https://youtu.be/zyeMFSzPgGc


Yup - the irony is that in the brave new world of the 21st Century, those who the City Fathers gifted low density social housing on the edge of town are now social exiles with, unless they own a car, limited opportunities for education, retail, entertainment and employment.

Meanwhile the middle classes gentrify the inner-city terraces that were once considered slums, and pay fortunes for the sort of high-density high-rises that were so disastrous as social housing. Gone is the imperative to have a driveway and garage, a central location or short walk to public transport is quite enough for most, as they realise that a car club and occasional weekend rental are far more economical, as almost everything can be delivered.

I wonder how long it will be before the high-rise blocks creep along the riverside opposite Paintworks? Whoever owns the fruit market site must be rubbing their hands together in glee at the prospect of how much it could be worth once the Royal Mail site is developed.

What the current crop of


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on July 24, 2018, 02:38:40 pm
The figure for Central Bristol in the Bristol Local Plan Review - February 2018 (https://www.bristol.gov.uk/documents/20182/34536/Bristol+Local+Plan+Review/09f23dba-9a9f-e387-8fc3-9637bca23125) is 13,500 homes, in Bristol City Centre, Temple Quarter, St Philip’s Marsh and Western Harbour (Cumberland Basin to you and me). Of these, SPM (oops!) looks to be the largest site, but I find it hard to keep up with all the double-accounting. Presumably the numbers will change when Marv finally drops his long-telegraphed 'A' bomb...


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on July 27, 2018, 04:14:18 pm
Lots of information about the Bristol Heat Network here, for anyone as is interested:

https://tools.smartsteep.eu/wiki/Bristol_-_Heat_Network_Assessment


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: TonyK on July 27, 2018, 06:30:06 pm
It isn't as thoroughly thought through as I had hoped, but that's a clever idea. Heat networks work in places like Russia, and Combined Heat and Power has much to commend it. There is a precedent within Bristol, as some of the high rise flats have a central boiler. That was never popular with the tenants, who complained of high charges, and often (illegally) installed portable calor gas heaters. A caveat though - biomass? If by that we mean something like the New Earth Solutions plant in Avonmouth, turning household waste into energy, then fine. But if it is like Drax power station, chasing subsidies by burning imported kiln-dried wooden pellets, then no.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 14, 2018, 06:51:31 pm
The next phase of this junction improvement kicks in on 21 Oct 2018:

(https://i2.wp.com/www.bristoltemplequarter.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Temple-Roundabout-works-01.png?fit=941%2C907&ssl=1)

Full details are here (https://www.bristoltemplequarter.com/key-projects/temple-gate-construction-works/) Note that the 904 Brislington Park & Ride service will call at Redcliffe Way and will no longer stop on Temple Gate.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: grahame on October 14, 2018, 06:58:55 pm
The next phase of this junction improvement kicks in on 21 Oct 2018

Looks like traffic coming south down Temple Way wanting to head west on Redcliffe Way can't.  Isn't that the very journey the flyover used to provide?   Not really needed now??  Not sure if that was possible in previous phases either - I normally just hoof it from Temple Meads ...


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: martyjon on October 14, 2018, 07:16:40 pm
The next phase of this junction improvement kicks in on 21 Oct 2018

Looks like traffic coming south down Temple Way wanting to head west on Redcliffe Way can't.  Isn't that the very journey the flyover used to provide?   Not really needed now??  Not sure if that was possible in previous phases either - I normally just hoof it from Temple Meads ...

They can, travel south over south bound Bath Road bridge do a u-turn onto the north bound Bath Road bridge and thence to Redcliffe Way. A two way flyover over the alignment of the "temporary" flyover would have been the best plan but you know Bristol Politicians, can't see any further than the end of their noses.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 14, 2018, 07:50:46 pm
You've hit the nail very squarely on the head there, grahame.

The route you describe formed part of the Inner Circuit Road, and the Tempry Flyover was to have been the precursor to a much bigger junction which was to be developed as this road was enlarged. In the 1970s it slowly began to dawn in the City Parents (well OK; Fathers in them days) that most of the through traffic they were trying to divert around the city centre was actually quite capable of bypassing the city altogether, mostly via the M5. Others had spotted that the motorway across Queen Square was not as lovely as they had first hoped, nor was the racetrack around The Centre. So ever so quietly they killed the Inner Circuit Road using the Death of a Thousand Cuts. Local traffic now goes a bit further south via Temple Gate, and then heads west along York or Clarence Road (instead of roaring past St Mary Redcliffe church). It was also noted that surrounding Bristol's great ecclesiastical masterpiece with dual carriageways on two sides had not enhanced its setting. One of these - Redcliffe Way - is now in its overdue death throes, leaving the other (Redcliff Hill) looking a bit oversized for a road that connects a smallish car park at one end to an elevated motorway that (thankfully) was never built at the other. It can't be long before that too becomes nothing but a bad memory...


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: martyjon on October 14, 2018, 08:46:57 pm
You've hit the nail very squarely on the head there, grahame.

The route you describe formed part of the Inner Circuit Road, and the Tempry Flyover was to have been the precursor to a much bigger junction which was to be developed as this road was enlarged. In the 1970s it slowly began to dawn in the City Parents (well OK; Fathers in them days) that most of the through traffic they were trying to divert around the city centre was actually quite capable of bypassing the city altogether, mostly via the M5. Others had spotted that the motorway across Queen Square was not as lovely as they had first hoped, nor was the racetrack around The Centre. So ever so quietly they killed the Inner Circuit Road using the Death of a Thousand Cuts. Local traffic now goes a bit further south via Temple Gate, and then heads west along York or Clarence Road (instead of roaring past St Mary Redcliffe church). It was also noted that surrounding Bristol's great ecclesiastical masterpiece with dual carriageways on two sides had not enhanced its setting. One of these - Redcliffe Way - is now in its overdue death throes, leaving the other (Redcliff Hill) looking a bit oversized for a road that connects a smallish car park at one end to an elevated motorway that (thankfully) was never built at the other. It can't be long before that too becomes nothing but a bad memory...

I thought the Inner Circuit Road was killed off when sime pillock on BCC recommended that a shopping centre be built bisecting the road and merging a number of traffic flows into one only for the merged traffic flow to be split further on and causing daily gridlock in the morning and evening peaks.

.... the motorway across Queen Square was not as lovely as they had first hoped ....

Yes, I remember that, but didn't the experts shut off the motorway and divert the outbound traffic around the north and east perimeter roads with inbound traffic round the south and west perimeter roads making those roads a one way square rounabout.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 14, 2018, 09:16:33 pm

I thought the Inner Circuit Road was killed off when sime pillock on BCC recommended that a shopping centre be built bisecting the road and merging a number of traffic flows into one only for the merged traffic flow to be split further on and causing daily gridlock in the morning and evening peaks.


Well not really - the eastern half, from St James Barton to Temple Meads, is still very much in evidence as a major road, despite the diversion around Cabot Circus. Surely the thing that killed it deader as a Ring Road was - well - removing half of it? The junction at the end of the M32, inevitably, was always heavily loaded; I'm not sure we can reliably state that that the diversion has made things worse. Increasing car ownership has probably been more significant.


.... the motorway across Queen Square was not as lovely as they had first hoped ....

Yes, I remember that, but didn't the experts shut off the motorway and divert the outbound traffic around the north and east perimeter roads with inbound traffic round the south and west perimeter roads making those roads a one way square rounabout.

No; buses went round the Square for a period but other traffic was diverted down The Grove. This was all done in the context of an overall plan to downgrade the western half of the Inner Circuit Road, which (as I alluded elsewhere) had blighted some of Bristol's most historic areas.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: martyjon on October 14, 2018, 09:57:20 pm
Well not really - the eastern half, from St James Barton to Temple Meads, is still very much in evidence as a major road, despite the diversion around Cabot Circus. Surely the thing that killed it deader as a Ring Roads was - well - removing half of it? The junction at the end of the M32, inevitably, was always heavily loaded; I'm not sure we can reliably state that that the diversion has made things worse. Increasing car ownership has probably been more significant.

Before Cabot Circus you had traffic from SJB to M32, OM & OMU, now we have the same plus OM/OMU to M32 merging into the previous 3 traffic flows with god knows how many traffic lights and remember we had a pedestrian bridge over the ICR by the Spectrum Building which has been replaced by 2 sets of pedestrian lights and then there is the myriad of pedestrian lights around The Bearpit which slows traffic down despite GF's 20mph speed limit.


Quote
No; buses went round the Square for a period but other traffic was diverted down The Grove. This was all done in the context of an overall plan to downgrade the western half of the Inner Circuit Road, which (as I alluded elsewhere) had blighted some of Bristol's most historic areas.

There is no access to many of the premises around Queen Square other than their front doors and whilst inbound traffic was recommended to use The Grove, outbound traffic still preferred to use the square because it was quicker than waiting for a gap in inbound traffic from the square to turn right into Prince Street and at the Bascule Bridge waiting to turn right out of The Grove by The Severn Shed.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 14, 2018, 11:21:39 pm

Before Cabot Circus you had traffic from SJB to M32, OM & OMU, now we have the same plus OM/OMU to M32 merging into the previous 3 traffic flows with god knows how many traffic lights and remember we had a pedestrian bridge over the ICR by the Spectrum Building which has been replaced by 2 sets of pedestrian lights and then there is the myriad of pedestrian lights around The Bearpit which slows traffic down despite GF's 20mph speed limit.


I can't claim to completely follow what you're saying here, but to pick you up on a couple of points:

1. When the M32/Bond Street junction was re-engineered as part of the Cabot Circus development, they clearly shifted the emphasis to prioritise traffic coming on and off the M32. That doesn't strike me as necessarily a mad thing to do.
2. Pedestrian bridges are generally out of favour these days because they are ugly, intimidating, and difficult to make accessible; they're also not much good for cyclists.
3. George Ferguson cut through the usual Bristol miasma of petty political games and implemented 20mph speed limits (though notably not on the roads we are discussing), but it was hardly an aberration - they're in many cities and towns these days.
4. The Bear Pit (St James Barton roundabout) was signalised in the 1990s to relieve congestion, and then changed later to allow pedestrians to cross at street level; many people find the environment of the Pit rather intimidating and would rather stay at ground level. I think that's understandable, isn't it?


There is no access to many of the premises around Queen Square other than their front doors and whilst inbound traffic was recommended to use The Grove, outbound traffic still preferred to use the square because it was quicker than waiting for a gap in inbound traffic from the square to turn right into Prince Street and at the Bascule Bridge waiting to turn right out of The Grove by The Severn Shed.

I don't recognise the scenario you describe. You've tested my filing system though! Here in front of me I have the leaflet describing the closure of the Square to through traffic on 17 May 1992, along with a helpful diagram showing it accessed in much the way it is today, i.e. no use at all as a through route (but a very lovely place to play frisbee on a sunny day).


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Bmblbzzz on October 15, 2018, 10:33:26 am
St James Barton
You are possibly the only person in the entire world, other than council planners, who uses that name!
Though of course there are people who think that
The Bearpit
refers to a cosy little establishment in Old Market...


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: SandTEngineer on October 15, 2018, 10:44:34 am
Why is it that Bristol is one of those cities that never finishes its road network.  We have the same problem down here in (not so today) Sunny Plymouth!  They are just about to start trying to cure the latest pinch point but it will only end up creating another one somewhere else instead.....

Sorry to hijack your Bristol thread but there are similarities.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 15, 2018, 10:45:38 am
The Bearpit
refers to a cosy little establishment in Old Market...

For the benefit of any readers who need a little explanation:

Quote
Bristol Bear Bar is the UK’s only bespoke bear bar. The venue is a must see for all Bears and non Bears as the atmosphere and staff are friendly and always happy to welcome the many national and international visitors who visit.

Grrrrr-owl!


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 15, 2018, 11:16:56 am
Why is it that Bristol is one of those cities that never finishes its road network.  We have the same problem down here in (not so today) Sunny Plymouth!  They are just about to start trying to cure the latest pinch point but it will only end up creating another one somewhere else instead.....

Sorry to hijack your Bristol thread but there are similarities.

I suppose it depends on which road network you mean. The road network envisaged in the 1966 City Centre Policy Report (or which, of course, I have a copy) included a full-sized motorway running through Cotham and Montpelier, and a massive free-flow interchange where Cabot Circus now stands. Oh, and filling in the docks to build more motorways. And an elevated motorway straight through Bedminster. I could go on...

For the fact that that road network was never completed, I am very grateful; Bristol would have been a truly awful place to live - though perhaps (perhaps) a little easier for those living elsewhere to pass through.

A lot of recent changes have really been about unravelling bits of traffic infrastructure that were designed to serve that network which was never built. Redcliffe Way, for example, no longer serves a function as a major road and so there's no point in having a junction (or flyover) at Temple Gate that chucks vast quantities of traffic at it. Similarly Redcliff Hill was intended to link the Inner Circuit Road to the Bedminster Bypass - but the site of that bypass is now one of the places where Bristol plans to build thousands of new homes, and the Inner Circuit Road no longer exists.

I see all these changes as wounds that are healing. Whether they cause more congestion is a moot point; there are certainly a lot of places that are harder to get to by car than they once were - but it is hardly paradoxical that those places tend to be crowded with people enjoying themselves.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Bmblbzzz on October 15, 2018, 11:48:30 am
Constantly changing road layouts are also a function of growth and changing uses of areas. The Corinium Museum in Cirencester has a map of the Roman city, showing the street plan has remained essentially unchanged for almost two thousand years. Except for the one-way streets, the traffic lights, the parking and parking restrictions, and all the rest of the town that has grown up since then.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: SandTEngineer on October 15, 2018, 12:39:42 pm
Constantly changing road layouts are also a function of growth and changing uses of areas. The Corinium Museum in Cirencester has a map of the Roman city, showing the street plan has remained essentially unchanged for almost two thousand years. Except for the one-way streets, the traffic lights, the parking and parking restrictions, and all the rest of the town that has grown up since then.

In my city they build the offices and factories and shops first, then plan the road network afterwards.  Well, I suppose we are in the UK... ::)


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: TonyK on October 15, 2018, 07:31:00 pm
The next phase of this junction improvement kicks in on 21 Oct 2018

Looks like traffic coming south down Temple Way wanting to head west on Redcliffe Way can't.  Isn't that the very journey the flyover used to provide?   Not really needed now??  Not sure if that was possible in previous phases either - I normally just hoof it from Temple Meads ...

They can, travel south over south bound Bath Road bridge do a u-turn onto the north bound Bath Road bridge and thence to Redcliffe Way. A two way flyover over the alignment of the "temporary" flyover would have been the best plan but you know Bristol Politicians, can't see any further than the end of their noses.

A mere six sets of traffic lights to negotiate. Plan B, doubling back up Victoria Street then across to St Thomas Street, is a no-go. I have, at times, been known to turn left innto Temple Back East, U-turn, then cross over past where the fire station was. I can't remember if that is still possible. I would certainly advise planning your route through the area for now, very carefully.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 15, 2018, 08:25:45 pm
I would certainly advise planning your route through the area for new, very carefully.

Understanding the new road layout will certainly help.

Getting through the area by car will be a doddle when all this is finished; the problems will start if you have preconceived notions of using routes which are no longer intended for through traffic. The only reason to take a car to Redcliffe when all this is finished will be if you live or work there.

For further reading, see here: http://www.redcliffeforum.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Redcliffe-online-version.compressed.pdf


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: metalrail on October 15, 2018, 11:12:35 pm
I'll certainly give it to Bristol on not pushing through with the whole scheme in the first place, and bulldozing half of the centre to achieve it

Where I grew up in Derby, they decided to build a massive Inner Ring Road system in the late 60s, and in the process knocked down huge swathes of mega historic buildings / Georgian squares / whole housing estates etc etc etc which have all been VERY sorely missed.  There was even a smaller version of St Mary Redcliffe church - Derby's St Alkmunds which had the biggest spire in the city (town as it was then) and was still a very busy church...  all that now remains in it's place is a portion of the Inner Ring Road named St Alkmunds Way!

Whenever family and friends visit from Derby and moan about the congestion in the centre of Bristol, I point out that apart from the parts of the centre that were flattened during the war, Bristol thankfully took the sensible decision to retain most of it's historic structures, unlike Derby.  As soon as I make that comparison, they totally get it, and all say they wish Derby still had the same historical fabric as Bristol thankfully does


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 16, 2018, 09:29:27 am

Whenever family and friends visit from Derby and moan about the congestion in the centre of Bristol, I point out that apart from the parts of the centre that were flattened during the war, Bristol thankfully took the sensible decision to retain most of it's historic structures, unlike Derby.  As soon as I make that comparison, they totally get it, and all say they wish Derby still had the same historical fabric as Bristol thankfully does


I think in truth there was just a lot more historical fabric to begin with in Bristol. The post-war planners, as I never tire of pointing out, did far, far more damage than the Luftwaffe: St James Barton (the Bear Pit) was a very good cobbled Georgian Square which survived the Blitz but not the highways engineers; mediaeval Old Market St was severed by the bloody great hole that is the Old Market Underpass; vast swathes of Totterdown, with is steep narrow Victorian streets, were swept away for the massive Outer Circuit Road interchange that was planned for Three Lamps; great chunks of Clifton, Cotham and Montpelier were blighted for decades. Perhaps worst of all, a quarter of the mediaeval core of Bristol, it's buildings largely destroyed by bombing on 24th November 1940, was simply obliterated and covered with some third-rate buildings and a badly-designed park, while Georgian and Victorian Broadmead was demolished for a post-war shopping centre which someone described as having all the charm of an out-of-town precinct, without the parking...

But look what's been happening in the last 30 years: Queen Square and College Green are now superbly restored, and while The Dibleys were subverting their MetroBus Millions to build long-dreamed-of road schemes, Bristol used their bit to turn The Centre from a traffic system into something like a public plaza. The Temple Gate scheme is another example of a project which, as well as improving traffic flow, will turn a traffic system into a public square. Hoorah!

Nearly everything that can happen to a city has happened to Bristol. I think that may be why it is such a brilliant place.



Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Bmblbzzz on October 16, 2018, 11:09:01 am
Bristol's planners started destroying the city for roads and motorization before the war and the great era of bypasses etc. The dual carriageway through Queen Square (and realignment of King Billy) was built in the 1930s.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Noggin on October 16, 2018, 12:22:37 pm
Bristol's planners started destroying the city for roads and motorization before the war and the great era of bypasses etc. The dual carriageway through Queen Square (and realignment of King Billy) was built in the 1930s.

And before that, the infill of part of the floating harbour for the tramways centre...

Nonetheless, as previous posters say, if nothing else, Bristol City Council seem to be extremely good at taking money intended for bus improvements and using it to pay for tidying up road junctions and the public realm. The South Bristol Link road is indeed extremely useful, they've made a nice job of the Centre and the bits they have finished of Temple Way give the impression that it will end up as a tree-lined boulevard rather than something from a JG Ballard novel. Whilst they might be taking a year longer than expected to finish Temple Way, the council will also end up with a large building plot that should earn them a few quid too 


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 16, 2018, 12:47:49 pm
Bristol's planners started destroying the city for roads and motorization before the war and the great era of bypasses etc. The dual carriageway through Queen Square (and realignment of King Billy) was built in the 1930s.

Abercrombie's Bristol and Bath Regional Planning Scheme of 1928 was probably the start of it; Abercrombie's effect on the quality of urban life was similar to Beeching's effect on rural railways.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Bmblbzzz on October 16, 2018, 02:47:44 pm
First I've heard of Abercrombie, so I googled. I found a reference to "the Western Chapter of Architects' proposal (1944)" sweeping away everything between Bristol Bridge and the cathedral in a book about Bristol, and this:
Quote
In Patrick Abercrombie’s interwar regional planning work a concern to shape the geographic distribution of urban development at a regional level and a sustained concern for rural conservation intersect. His plans tried to configure environmentally sensitive areas into a green regional infrastructure, directing the desired development to take place within the confines of a “conservative” framework. This ambition reflected a keen awareness of the need to cross the distance between legitimate conservation concerns and the constructive development of future opportunities, trying to make use of the growing public consensus regarding rural conservation as a concrete force within the planning process.
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0739456X04270369


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: SandTEngineer on October 16, 2018, 04:17:02 pm
First I've heard of Abercrombie, so I googled. I found a reference to "the Western Chapter of Architects' proposal (1944)" sweeping away everything between Bristol Bridge and the cathedral in a book about Bristol, and this:
Quote
In Patrick Abercrombie’s interwar regional planning work a concern to shape the geographic distribution of urban development at a regional level and a sustained concern for rural conservation intersect. His plans tried to configure environmentally sensitive areas into a green regional infrastructure, directing the desired development to take place within the confines of a “conservative” framework. This ambition reflected a keen awareness of the need to cross the distance between legitimate conservation concerns and the constructive development of future opportunities, trying to make use of the growing public consensus regarding rural conservation as a concrete force within the planning process.
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0739456X04270369

Bli**y that's a bit of a mouthful. :o


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: grahame on October 16, 2018, 04:27:51 pm
First I've heard of Abercrombie, so I googled. I found a reference to "the Western Chapter of Architects' proposal (1944)" sweeping away everything between Bristol Bridge and the cathedral in a book about Bristol, and this:
Quote
In Patrick Abercrombie’s interwar regional planning work a concern to shape the geographic distribution of urban development at a regional level and a sustained concern for rural conservation intersect. His plans tried to configure environmentally sensitive areas into a green regional infrastructure, directing the desired development to take place within the confines of a “conservative” framework. This ambition reflected a keen awareness of the need to cross the distance between legitimate conservation concerns and the constructive development of future opportunities, trying to make use of the growing public consensus regarding rural conservation as a concrete force within the planning process.
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0739456X04270369

Bli**y that's a bit of a mouthful. :o

From http://www.readabilityformulas.com/freetests/six-readability-formulas.php ...

Flesch Reading Ease score: 3.8 (text scale)
Flesch Reading Ease scored your text: very difficult to read.

Gunning Fog: 24.1 (text scale)
Gunning Fog scored your text: very difficult to read.

Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level: 21
Grade level: College Graduate and above.

The Coleman-Liau Index: 17
Grade level: graduate college

The SMOG Index: 17.9
Grade level: graduate college

Automated Readability Index: 23.3
Grade level: College graduate

Linsear Write Formula : 26.3
Grade level: College Graduate and above.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: SandTEngineer on October 16, 2018, 04:54:51 pm
Thanks for that Grahame.  Not just me then...... ::)

I have saved that link.  A very useful tool for when I write anything technical on here  ;D


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 16, 2018, 07:59:25 pm
...a book about Bristol...

That would be Andrew Foyle's excellent Pevsner Guide (ISBN 0-300-10442-1); no well-run home should be without it!


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: TonyK on October 17, 2018, 03:30:54 pm

But look what's been happening in the last 30 years: Queen Square and College Green are now superbly restored, and while The Dibleys were subverting their MetroBus Millions to build long-dreamed-of road schemes, Bristol used their bit to turn The Centre from a traffic system into something like a public plaza.

Put like that, MetroBust almost sounds like a good idea.

There's apparently a vacancy for a spin doctor at MetroBust - Comical Ali is leaving because he is fed up of having to exaggerate all the time. Interested?


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 17, 2018, 04:47:07 pm
Interested?

No.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: simonw on October 17, 2018, 07:26:15 pm
telling the current situation, clearly (truth ?), would be a good start for a MetroBus Spin Doctor.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Phantom on November 08, 2018, 10:26:03 am
Has anyone seen any updated road plans for this area
Noticed earlier in the week going past on a bus, that the way the new kerbstones are being put in place as shown below, looks like there is a new lane of traffic being built in, but due to the angle of it - roughly as shown below I can't figure out where it is going to and from??


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on November 08, 2018, 10:45:45 am
The final scheme will look a lot like this:

(https://i2.wp.com/www.bristoltemplequarter.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Temple-Gate-Aerial-bridge2.jpg?ssl=1)

Edit: The bit you've highlighted looks like a cycle lane.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Bmblbzzz on November 08, 2018, 11:07:54 am
The final scheme will look a lot like this:

(https://i2.wp.com/www.bristoltemplequarter.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Temple-Gate-Aerial-bridge2.jpg?ssl=1)
The thing the "forget" to include when making those mockups is realistic levels of traffic (of all sorts).


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on November 08, 2018, 11:25:09 am
I dunno; Google saw even less when they whizzed overhead: https://goo.gl/maps/uMypJUagmG42


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Noggin on November 08, 2018, 02:58:01 pm
If you go to the image itself at https://i2.wp.com/www.bristoltemplequarter.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Temple-Gate-Aerial-bridge2.jpg?ssl=1 (https://i2.wp.com/www.bristoltemplequarter.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Temple-Gate-Aerial-bridge2.jpg?ssl=1) you can see it at a much larger size.

There is certainly some cyclepath, though to be honest it seems very piecemeal. There seem to be three new bus-stops to replace the one outside the Holiday Inn - a bit of a hike to the station to say the least, but might be convenient when they finally get around to extending the station. Presumably at least one of those will be for MetroBus. IIRC the original plan was that when the extension to the station was built, the current ramp would become some kind of green space, with taxis, buses and drop-off moving to the north side of the station.

Note also that the council is trying to CPO the derelict Grosvenor Hotel with the intention of building an Engine Shed 2 in conjunction with Skanska, so that great plaza in front of the town hall is likely to be significantly reduced in size. Skanska also own the square piece of land between B&E house and the station currently used as a construction base.

It may also be of interest that the council own the building that the Holiday Inn is in. That presumably will be worth a fair few quid in the years to come   



Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on November 08, 2018, 04:21:03 pm
I presume that by 'Town Hall' you mean the Citizen Service Point at 100 Temple Street? It was always the intention that there would be new buildings backing onto Victoria Street and Temple Gate; these will give the new plaza some enclosure and should hopefully make it a more pleasant place. Engine Shed 2 is planned to be to the south of the plaza, taking the sites of the Grosvenor Hotel and the George Railway Hotel.

As for the Holiday Inn: the sooner they tear that building down, the better - though perhaps they should wait until Marvin moves on as goodness knows what abomination he'd come up with to replace it. Thinks: If only we had a mayor who knew something about architecture, regeneration and town planning... we can dream.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on November 10, 2018, 11:39:53 am
Quote
Cabinet decision advances regeneration of Temple Quarter

Plans for the redevelopment of a prominent area in the Temple Quarter took a step forward this week with the Bristol City Council Cabinet decision to approve the Joint Development and Land Agreement for Engine Shed 2, Temple Square and Station Approach.

The decision paves the way for the comprehensive redevelopment of the Temple Circus site, a goal the council has been seeking since 2008. The scheme aims to create a first class welcome to Bristol for passengers arriving into Temple Meads and will improve links between the station and city centre. It also opens up new land for employment space – contributing to the council’s ambitious targets for creating jobs in the Enterprise Zone.

As part of this, there are plans for the George & Railway building to be transformed into Engine Shed 2, providing follow-on space from the original Engine Shed for rapidly growing companies.  The Cabinet decision authorises use of a compulsory purchase order (CPO) to enable redevelopment of the neighbouring Grosvenor Hotel building, should ongoing negotiations with the current owners fail.

Councillor Craig Cheney commented:

Quote
“Temple Square is a gateway to the Temple Quarter and we are making good progress towards improving the road layout and opening up new development land in this area. It’s now time to focus on how we can move forward with the redevelopment of these eyesore buildings – not only to provide a better first impression of Bristol but also to create new jobs and opportunities as part of a thriving city centre.”


Source: Bristol Temple Quarter blog (https://www.bristoltemplequarter.com/cabinet-decision-advances-regeneration-of-temple-quarter/)


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: TonyK on November 12, 2018, 06:27:45 pm
I'm sure the George and Railway was closed when I moved to Bristol in 1977. So about time, although given Bristol's track record, this announcement probably means that things like Engine Shed 2 are about to go out of fashion.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on November 12, 2018, 06:55:17 pm
I'm sure the George and Railway was closed when I moved to Bristol in 1977. So about time, although given Bristol's track record, this announcement probably means that things like Engine Shed 2 are about to go out of fashion.

I think I may have had a pint or two of Courage Best there in 1978, but let's not quibble.

It is perhaps unfair to blame the paralysis of this site on Bristol City Council; as I remember it the problem is that the two buildings - The George Railway Hotel (https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1291650) (for so long idiomatically referred to as the George and Railway that this is now its actual name!) and the Grosvenor Hotel - were owned by two equally-powerful developers who both wanted the whole site; the only way out of the impasse was a CPO but Bristol were worried about the legal costs. I'm not sure what has changed that means Bristol is no longer afraid of this - perhaps now that the site is bigger, they can afford to throw caution to the wind.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on December 23, 2018, 11:51:43 am
An update:

Quote
Significant progress has been achieved on the Temple Circus scheme this year and works will continue in the New Year, with the project on track to be completed in autumn 2019.

From Monday 7 January, work will start on junction improvements at the Bath Bridges roundabout. To allow space for contractors to work safely, Clarence Road will be closed to eastbound traffic for approximately 12 weeks while these improvements are underway. Traffic will be redirected via York Road but drivers are advised to allow extra time for their journey, or plan an alternative route if possible.

Clarence Road will remain open for westbound traffic during the day throughout these works. However, there will be night works taking place on 7-11 January (inclusive) and 14-15 January, meaning the road will be closed in both directions from 8pm to 6am on these dates.

Full article: https://www.bristoltemplequarter.com/temple-gate-update/

This image, from the same source, gives a good indication of how much space is being released for better uses by this scheme:  the light brown and light grey areas in the centre of this image were mostly taken up by motor roads not long ago.

(https://i2.wp.com/www.bristoltemplequarter.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Aerial-view-showing-how-Temple-Circus-will-look-in-future.jpg?fit=1920%2C1080&ssl=1)


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Dispatch Box on December 23, 2018, 12:37:25 pm
Are they Altering this to move the station parking to the rear of brunels train shed to make it back into platforms.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: martyjon on December 23, 2018, 01:56:46 pm
Are they Altering this to move the station parking to the rear of brunels train shed to make it back into platforms.

I presume the car (covered) parking in the train shed will go but the area at the back of the train shed that you refer to on the depicted model is already car parking.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: DaveHarries on December 25, 2018, 05:58:33 pm
Apologies for being sceptical but, going by the final map, this has all the hallmarks of a Bristol City Council scheme IMO. I will wait and see the final results before I pass final judgement though.

Dave


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: TonyK on December 26, 2018, 10:16:00 am
The Grosvenor is long overdue a serious uplift at the very least.

Before its incarnation as a hostel for homeless folks in the Naughties, I can recall that it still functioned as a hotel in the late 80s / early 90s. The council housed homeless families on the two top floors, and my job at the time including calling on them, often out of hours. It wasn't particularly nice - the hallway inside the front door seemed to go downhill, there was at one point one single functioning bathroom on a floor with three dozen rooms, and interviews were sometimes carried out to the sound of lorries scraping along the flyover. There was a bar, but I never felt tempted to take a drink there. One night, I was summoned there to see a new entrant, and was surprised to find two extremely large men in suits with a bulge below one armpit barring my way. One asked me, politely, what I was doing there. Normally, I would have told him that was my business, not his, but he was of a size and build that demanded an explanation. He nodded, then spoke to his cufflink. "Go to the lift, go to the fourth floor, nowhere else, my colleague will meet you there." He was right - a suited gorilla escorted me from lift to room, and back again. On the way out, I asked one of the men why the unusual concierge arrangement. Turned out that (then Sir) Norman Tebbit was dining there as a guest of some local businessmen. As he was just finishing his coffee and was about to leave, they decided they could tell me without having to kill me. I asked the obvious question: "Why here?" and was told "We don't know either."


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: RichardB on January 09, 2019, 12:21:08 pm
I'm sure the George and Railway was closed when I moved to Bristol in 1977. So about time, although given Bristol's track record, this announcement probably means that things like Engine Shed 2 are about to go out of fashion.

Very late to this, but I worked at Bath Spa station from early 87 to the beginning of 89 and it was open throughout this period.  I popped in for a pint from time to time (quite a decent bar and the beer was good, as I remember.)


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on April 24, 2019, 04:47:47 pm
The new Temple Gate road layout is now in operation, according to Bristol City Council (see here: https://news.bristol.gov.uk/news/new-temple-gate-road-layout-launches-as-works-enter-final-phase). The junctions are fully signalised, and should look like this:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D4R3xV-W4AEMBIo.jpg)


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Phantom on April 25, 2019, 10:18:49 am
One day they may actually finish this project !
It's amazed me that for 18+ months now, little sections have been worked on then for some reason rather than finish it they move onto another area, surely it would have been easier to work on a section, complete it and move on?


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Noggin on April 25, 2019, 02:37:57 pm
One day they may actually finish this project !
It's amazed me that for 18+ months now, little sections have been worked on then for some reason rather than finish it they move onto another area, surely it would have been easier to work on a section, complete it and move on?

It goes to show just how much space roundabouts take up vs conventional junctions. I'll be interested to see how well it copes with rush hour - I guess that it will take a little while for everyone to get used to it and for the traffic light phasing to be optimised.

I walk through it every day and I get the impression that actually it has been pretty carefully phased and the work seems to have been carried out to a high quality. AIUI, what's made it significantly more complicated is the installation of the district heating pipes and the re-routing of services, particularly when they discovered some previously unknown vaults and had to have a bunch of expensive pipework rebuilt.



Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on April 25, 2019, 08:22:44 pm
Apologies to anyone who mistook my earlier post to mean that the roadworks are complete - there are still a lot of cones, lane closures and temporary signals. The attached photo was taken along the new alignment of Redcliffe Way (or is this bit Temple Gate?), and gives an indication of the current state of play. Hard to get decent photos as the area is still a complete mess. Brunel's Temple Meads facade is in the centre of the image.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: metalrail on April 30, 2019, 09:31:25 pm
All we need now is the old 'temporary' flyover to be brought back into service to access Redcliffe Way from Temple Way again!  ;)


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on April 30, 2019, 10:08:58 pm
All we need now is the old 'temporary' flyover to be brought back into service to access Redcliffe Way from Temple Way again!  ;)

Curiously, it looks like the name 'Redcliffe Way' will actually survive this current scheme (personally I would like to see the old name - Pile Street - restored), although it is now very much a local road and no longer part of the long-defunct Inner Circuit Road. There is no conceivable justification for channelling traffic from Temple Way in this direction though - where would it be heading?


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: metalrail on May 01, 2019, 07:54:36 am
I always used that route before to get to Whapping Wharf / Spike Island, and sometimes onto Bedminster


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on May 01, 2019, 10:07:19 am
I always used that route before to get to Whapping Wharf / Spike Island, and sometimes onto Bedminster

Redcliffe Way and Redcliff Hill (one with a terminal 'e', one without - don't ask me why!) are the fossilised remains of a road network that was (thankfully!) never completed. Redcliff Hill was an eclectic ancient thoroughfare which was destroyed to create a dual-carriageway link between the esrtwhile Inner Circuit Road and an elevated motorway through Bedminster (the site of which is now, finally, to be redeveloped for housing); Redcliffe Way and its surrounding wastelands of car parking and SLOAP (space left over after planning) was never a brilliant setting for St Mary Redcliffe church (described by Elizabeth I on MediaevalTripAdviser as 'The fairest, goodliest and most famous parish church in England') and is due to be redeveloped:

Quote
Redcliffe Way (Policies Map site KS10) will be suitable for a residential led development, supported by a mix of uses including offices, community infrastructure, leisure uses and culture / tourism uses, which may include hotel uses. An element of retail will be acceptable subject to consideration of its impact on other designated shopping areas. The development will be expected to provide:
Improved pedestrian and cycle routes between Temple Meads and Queen Square and between Redcliffe and Bedminster;
Residential development to encourage a stable, mixed residential population, including family housing and affordable housing;
A significantly improved setting for St. Mary Redcliffe church, improved links between north and south Redcliffe through the removal of the existing roundabout and the realignment of roads, and improved links between south and west Redcliffe through the redevelopment of Redcliff Hill;
An alignment for the proposed Bristol MetroBus route;
The reuse and sensitive restoration of the Grade II listed Thomas Chatterton’s house and school;
Enhancements to the quality and accessibility of the network of green spaces in the area;
High architectural and environmental design standards to contribute to the placemaking objectives for the area and the sustainability of the area;
A reduction in the impact of traffic on the area.

Source: Bristol Central Area Plan (https://www.bristol.gov.uk/documents/20182/34540/BCAP%20Adopted%20March%202015%20-%20Main%20Document%20&%20Annex%20-%20Web%20PDF.pdf/d05a0c22-ab91-4530-926a-f26160ab72a5)

Note that this plan is currently being revised - it's 4 years old, and some elements are already in place.

Through traffic, including relatively local journeys to Spike Island and Wapping Wharf, are routed via Bath Bridge roundabout and along the New Cut.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Bmblbzzz on May 01, 2019, 02:23:16 pm
Redcliffe Way's "wastelands of car parking and SLOAP" are also home to quite a few people in the flats there. And I note that both Way and Hill are to remain dual carriageways, which is kind of disappointing.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on May 01, 2019, 03:13:12 pm
Redcliffe Way's "wastelands of car parking and SLOAP" are also home to quite a few people in the flats there.

I'm referring to the area between Portwall Lane and Redcliffe Way, which fit my description. That is not to say that there is no scope for improving the area between Redcliffe Way and Redcliff Mead Lane..!

And I note that both Way and Hill are to remain dual carriageways, which is kind of disappointing.

You may be right, and if so it is disappointing, but I've not seen it specifically stated anywhere - have you? Since my previous post, I've found the updated local plan (https://www.bristol.gov.uk/documents/20182/34536/Local+Plan+Review+-+Retained+Policies+-+Web.pdf/a9f94ff0-b307-9ce7-87b0-878902ee2695) - which retains the same policies with regard to the Hill and the Way


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Bmblbzzz on May 01, 2019, 04:00:28 pm
I've seen the new kerbs they've installed for the central reservation!

As for the area between Redcliffe Way and Portwall Lane, yes it's kind of empty – sometimes it's good to have a bit of open area in a city but it could be more attractive.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on May 01, 2019, 05:13:50 pm
I've seen the new kerbs they've installed for the central reservation!

I wouldn't extrapolate what they've done at the junction with Temple Gate to the rest of Redcliffe Way and Redcliff Hill - it is clear that the old motor-car dominated road layout is going to be replaced by something more friendly to other types of user. It may technically still be a dual carriageway, but without doubt it'll be narrower, slower, and one of the lanes will be a bus lane.

As for the area between Redcliffe Way and Portwall Lane, yes it's kind of empty – sometimes it's good to have a bit of open area in a city but it could be more attractive.

Cities need spaces, but they need to be well-designed. There is an aspiration to have some sort of public square in front of St Mary's, which has the potential to be exactly the kind of space that the current one isn't!


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Bmblbzzz on May 02, 2019, 11:29:10 am
I think the biggest obstacle to creating a more pleasant environment for St Mary Redcliffe – and the inhabitants of the flats, and people staying at the hotel opposite, and so on – is probably now Redcliffe Hill, chiefly due to its intrusive height. Being elevated, if only slightly, probably makes it harder to deal with though.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on September 11, 2019, 09:39:13 pm
Quote
New bus stops to open at Temple Gate this weekend
(https://i0.wp.com/www.bristoltemplequarter.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/New-bus-stops-TG_Sept.png?fit=794%2C485&ssl=1)

First Bus September service changes will start operating from 00:01 on Sunday 15 [Sept 2019 - Ed] and will feature new bus stops at Temple Gate.

The new stops at Temple Gate will be on Redcliffe Way (T3) and Victoria Street (T7) shown on the map above. These stops add to the new northbound Metrobus stop (T2) on Temple Gate and the westbound stop on Recliffe Way (T4) that opened in July.

Details of the services at each stop are provided below:

Temple Meads Stn (T1)

1: Broomhill – Cribbs (towards Broomhill)
2: Stockwood – Cribbs (towards Stockwood)
22: Computershare Service (towards Computershare)
X39: Bath – Bristol (towards Bristol)
39: Bath – Bristol (towards Bristol)
91: Hengrove – City Centre (towards Centre)
92: Hengrove – City Centre (towards Centre)
177: Midsomer Norton – Bristol City Centre (towards Midsomer Norton)
178: Radstock – Bristol City Centre (towards Radstock)
376: Street – Bristol City Centre (towards Street)
668: Peasedown St John – Broadmead (towards Peasdown St John)
Bris: Brislington Park & Ride


There appear to be errors here, as martyjon points out below. It seems pretty unlikely that buses heading toward The Centre will stop at T1.

Quote

Temple Meads Stn (T2)

91: Hengrove – City Centre (towards Centre)
92: Hengrove – City Centre (towards Centre)
177: Midsomer Norton – Bristol City Centre (towards Centre)
178: Radstock – Bristol City Centre (towards Centre)
376: Street – Bristol City Centre (towards Centre)
668: Peasedown St John – Broadmead (towards Centre)
Bris: Brislington Park & Ride

Temple Meads Stn (T3)

22: Computershare Service (towards Computershare)
X39: Bath – Bristol (towards Bath)
39: Bath – Bristol (towards Bath)
349: Keynsham – Bristol (towards Keynsham)
672: Blagdon – Bristol (towards Blagdon)
Bris: Brislington Park & Ride

Temple Meads Stn (T4)

22: Computershare Service (towards Centre)
X39: Bath – Bristol (towards Bristol)
39: Bath – Bristol (towards Bristol)
349: Keynsham – Bristol (towards Bristol)
462: Bristol Science Park- Temple Meads (*both directions)

Temple Meads Station (T5)

8: Temple Meads Circular (Via Clifton)
9: Temple Meads Circular (Via Redland)
72: UWE- Temple Meads (towards UWE)
Hospital free bus: Temple Meads via BRI

Temple Meads Station (T6)

70: UWE – Temple Meads Station (towards Temple Meads)
A1: Bristol Airport – Bristol Bus Station (*both directions)
AG1: Ashton Gate Special Service (*operating on match days only)
73: Cribbs – Temple Meads Station (towards Temple Meads)

Temple Meads Stn (T7)

1: Broomhill – Cribbs Causeway (towards Cribbs)
2: Stockwood – Cribbs Causeway (towards Cribbs)
512: Totterdown/Bedminster – Broadmead (towards Broadmead)

Temple Gate (T8)

8: Temple Meads Circular (Via Clifton)
9: Temple Meads Circular (Via Redland)
72: UWE- Temple Meads (towards UWE)
177: Midsomer Norton – Bristol City Centre (towards Centre)
178: Radstock – Bristol City Centre (towards Centre)
376: Street – Bristol City Centre (towards Centre)
Bris: Brislington Park & Ride
Port: Portway Park & Ride

Temple Gate (T9)

177: Midsomer Norton – Bristol City Centre (towards Midsomer Norton)
178: Radstock – Bristol City Centre (towards Radstock)
376: Street – Bristol City Centre (towards Street)

Redcliff Way (R5)

70: UWE – Temple Meads Station (towards Temple Meads)
73: Cribbs – Temple Meads Station (towards Temple Meads)

For details of the wider changes to services and timetables across the city please see the First Bus (https://www.firstgroup.com/bristol-bath-and-west/news-and-service-updates/news/major-investment-and-extra-capacity-coming) website.

Source: Bristol Temple Quarter (https://www.bristoltemplequarter.com/new-bus-stops-to-open-at-temple-gate-this-weekend/)

Edit - see note under T1


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: martyjon on September 11, 2019, 10:58:10 pm
And how this is going to confuse visitors. Before the change all the buses stopped opposite the station approach road. That stop has been removed and now pax have to take their pick of three, T2 or T4 or T7.

I hope visitors are successful in catching either the X39 or 39 from T1 towards Bristol someone didn't perform proof reading very well, another howler from Bristols leaders ?


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: johnneyw on September 11, 2019, 11:08:34 pm
Getting to Temple Meade by bus has for years been a dog's dinner for non citizens. It's a matter of knowning which stop is the closest from wherever you come from on whichever route. Surely a Temple Meads bus service should have a less esoteric system? It does seem that Bristol transport planners have a disregard for a transport hub at a, errrm, transport hub.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Bmblbzzz on September 11, 2019, 11:44:26 pm
And how this is going to confuse visitors. Before the change all the buses stopped opposite the station approach road. That stop has been removed and now pax have to take their pick of three, T2 or T4 or T7.

I hope visitors are successful in catching either the X39 or 39 from T1 towards Bristol someone didn't perform proof reading very well, another howler from Bristols lreaders ?
;)


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: froome on September 12, 2019, 08:08:49 am
Getting to Temple Meade by bus has for years been a dog's dinner for non citizens. It's a matter of knowning which stop is the closest from wherever you come from on whichever route. Surely a Temple Meads bus service should have a less esoteric system? It does seem that Bristol transport planners have a disregard for a transport hub at a, errrm, transport hub.

Quite. If you are at the Centre and want to get to Temple Meads, you have a choice of catching the numbers 8 and 9 in one direction or the X39 (and presumably others) going in the opposite direction. Although the former are signed for Temple Meads, I find it is usually quicker to catch the latter to the foot of the approach road.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: grahame on September 12, 2019, 10:11:06 am
Getting to Temple Meade by bus has for years been a dog's dinner for non citizens. It's a matter of knowning which stop is the closest from wherever you come from on whichever route. Surely a Temple Meads bus service should have a less esoteric system? It does seem that Bristol transport planners have a disregard for a transport hub at a, errrm, transport hub.

Quite. If you are at the Centre and want to get to Temple Meads, you have a choice of catching the numbers 8 and 9 in one direction or the X39 (and presumably others) going in the opposite direction. Although the former are signed for Temple Meads, I find it is usually quicker to catch the latter to the foot of the approach road.

The majority of bus journeys are, I suspect, regular ones - which does not forgive the lack on information that we sometimes see.  Hear are a couple of examples of maps showing you where to catch your bus from London (population many millions) and Charlottetown (popuation 36,000). 

(http://www.mrug.org.uk/lib/padmap.jpg)

(http://www.mrug.org.uk/lib/chamap.jpg)

The Paddington map is online at http://content.tfl.gov.uk/bus-route-maps/paddington-a4.pdf ; the Charlottetoewn one photograhed the other day.  I note I'm following up on a thread which asks about where to get your bus TO Temple Meads as well as your bus from there; there is a strong case for city-wide mapping to a consistent pattern.   I know Bath rather better; not sure if a map has gone up at the bus station after the changes of last week (the customer panel was pressing for one) - apparently a difficult request because of multiple operators, frequent changes and a shortage of staff / resources to produce it.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Bmblbzzz on September 12, 2019, 11:30:43 am
Bristol was actually a pioneer of clear, consistent on-street mapping. One of the simple but unusual features that make it effective is that the maps are always oriented in the direction the observer is looking; so if there is a map at the end of the Station Approach Road, an observer standing facing TM would see the road stretching ahead of them with the station at the end in both reality and on the map (but the map would of course show more behind the buildings). The other side of the map would show the view of the buildings opposite. The cartographic convention of 'north up' has been abandoned as inappropriate for these uses. Another feature is concentric semicircles, centred on the position of the map, showing approximate walking times.

Which is great for people on foot and finding the bus stops, etc, but doesn't show where the buses go.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on September 12, 2019, 11:52:33 am
Bristol was actually a pioneer of clear, consistent on-street mapping....

The 'Bristol Legible City' initiative was indeed ground-breaking, and has been emulated elsewhere because it did what it sets out to do very well. Details are here: https://www.bristollegiblecity.info/

The 'Legible City' maps are very much aimed at pedestrians, so they show bus stop locations but don't show bus routes - too much information can be as bad as not enough. Producing clear maps is not easy, and no map can show everything.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Bmblbzzz on September 12, 2019, 01:37:41 pm
Legible City, I knew it had a name but couldn't remember what, so thanks!


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: johnneyw on September 12, 2019, 02:05:43 pm
I've found interpreting these street maps on occasion to conflict with my intuitive north at the top oriented mental map.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: martyjon on September 12, 2019, 05:28:34 pm
Getting to Temple Meade by bus has for years been a dog's dinner for non citizens. It's a matter of knowning which stop is the closest from wherever you come from on whichever route. Surely a Temple Meads bus service should have a less esoteric system? It does seem that Bristol transport planners have a disregard for a transport hub at a, errrm, transport hub.

Quite. If you are at the Centre and want to get to Temple Meads, you have a choice of catching the numbers 8 and 9 in one direction or the X39 (and presumably others) going in the opposite direction. Although the former are signed for Temple Meads, I find it is usually quicker to catch the latter to the foot of the approach road.


You can also get the 72 to Temple Meads that follows the same route as the 8 & 9 from Queens Road and the 70 from the Haymarket which follows the sane route as the X39/39 to Temple Meads but turns up the incline to terminate.

For months For Sale hoardings were in place on the former W.H.Smiths distribution centre and I continuously said the council should buy the site and build a Bus Station / Hub there with an entrance / exit to the station via the tunnel / passageway that leads to / from the station subway to the roadway in front of the Bristol and Exeter House. I would also advocate routing all country services via Temple Meads and the City Centre whilst continuing to terminate at the Bus Station


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on September 12, 2019, 07:22:38 pm
For months For Sale hoardings were in place on the former W.H.Smiths distribution centre and I continuously said the council should buy the site and build a Bus Station / Hub there with an entrance / exit to the station via the tunnel / passageway that leads to / from the station subway to the roadway in front of the Bristol and Exeter House. I would also advocate routing all country services via Temple Meads and the City Centre whilst continuing to terminate at the Bus Station

Plot 6 - the site between Temple Meads and Friary - was long spoken of as a potential transport interchange, but it looks like this idea has died the death. Back in 2009 this site was the subject of a Freedom of Information request (https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/plot_6_temple_meads_as_a_transpo), from which it seemed clear that any hopes of a bus station there were becoming diluted into nothing more than 'having bus stops nearby':

Quote
I can advice that Policy CC1 of the Bristol Local Plan (1997) is the main planning policy against which any development proposals for sites around Temple Meads will need to be judged.

This can be viewed on the Council's website.

You can see that the thrust of this is to ensure the delivery of development that supports the establishment of transportation interchange facilities, which can include, bus, rapid transit, water borne movement and improved pedestrian movement along with car parking facilities.

The extent to which the land at Plot 6 will contribute to this policy requirement is unknown at this point in time.


More up-to-date, the Central Area Local Plan (https://www.bristol.gov.uk/documents/20182/34540/BCAP%20Adopted%20March%202015%20-%20Main%20Document%20&%20Annex%20-%20Web%20PDF.pdf/d05a0c22-ab91-4530-926a-f26160ab72a5) of 2015 states:

Quote
Bristol Temple Meads Station will be enhanced as a major transport interchange. The development of sites adjoining the station to the north will be expected to accommodate this interchange function.

At a stretch, Plot 6 could be considered to be 'north' of Temple Meads - it's hard to see where else they might mean.

I suppose the bottom line is that a transport hub can mean anything from a seamless interchange such as the one at Galashiels (https://www.scotborders.gov.uk/info/20030/public_and_community_transport/104/galashiels_transport_interchange), to a rusty bus stop with a parking space nearby...


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Reading General on September 12, 2019, 08:44:10 pm
Quite. The terms interchange and hub are popular terms at the moment and could mean all manner of things.
Reading’s station northern interchange is simply a couple of poorly positioned bus stops that require a double back manoeuvre to use. This is probably what Temple Meads will get, the bus stops on the main road moved to a dead end road away from the traffic and badged as an interchange or hub.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Pavement on September 12, 2019, 08:47:32 pm
The 'Bristol Legible City' initiative was indeed ground-breaking, and has been emulated elsewhere because it did what it sets out to do very well. Details are here: https://www.bristollegiblecity.info/

The 'Legible City' maps are very much aimed at pedestrians, so they show bus stop locations but don't show bus routes - too much information can be as bad as not enough. Producing clear maps is not easy, and no map can show everything.

There was a Legible City exhibition at the Architecture Centre early this year, and there was a board there showing bus route map displays for use at bus stops. They were similar to the London ones, showing the different routes from the stop snaking off to the various destinations on a schematic map. But very much part of the Legible City system, using the same colour schemes, fonts and iconography.

However, it wasn't clear whether this was part of the original system that has been abandoned, or a new proposal, or what.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: martyjon on September 12, 2019, 08:59:15 pm
Central Area Local Plan.

What a work of fiction that is.

Talks of City Promenade, really only City Centre given a posh name.

Talks of Arena Quarter, scuppered by current Mayor.

Talks of regeneration of Cumberland Basin area and Plimsoll Bridge swings, current Mayor wants get rid of bridge and flatten area and start again.

Talks of Arts Quarter, news to me, where's that, Christmas Steps and Colston Street.

And how many quarters are there in a whole ? Me the village idiot says only ever 4, this reports contains so many that added to the current physically existing ones could amount to 13 so with any luck this report will as has occasioned to its predecessors be consigned to the same place, the waste paper basket.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: martyjon on September 12, 2019, 09:08:02 pm
Oh and I forgot, what's the difference between a Primary Shop Front and a Secondary Shop Front, to me a shop front is a shop front, FULL STOP.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on September 12, 2019, 09:11:42 pm
What a work of fiction that is...

Well that was the 2015 version. The current draft (https://www.bristol.gov.uk/documents/20182/34536/Local+Plan+Review+-+Draft+Policies+and+Development+Allocations+-+Web.pdf/2077eef6-c9ae-3582-e921-b5d846762645) reflects some of the changes you refer to, though it still states:

Quote
Station redevelopment plans will see Temple Meads become a modern integrated regional transport hub. This will include enhancing the connectivity of Bristol Temple Quarter. This improved connectivity means a new approach to development and renewal beyond the station area into a better connected St. Philip’s Marsh can be brought forward.



Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: martyjon on September 12, 2019, 09:33:36 pm
Oh,  there is a new draft of the work of fiction is there.  Have to browse another time. Had a long day.  07.45 m3x stuck in traffic on ring road this am due to the total b???s up by SG council over the Hambrook Lights saga, 1 hour 10 mins late arriving at City Centre, sorry City Promenade.         ::)  >:(  ::)


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: johnneyw on September 12, 2019, 11:12:05 pm
I will state my opinion here. Plot 6 is the ideal point for a, hopefully, meaningful future bus/rail hub. No esoteric knowledge required, no complicated signage, just a very simple link to out and in going bus services. Will it happen? I'm more confident of my forthcoming telephone call from Barbara Brocoli to be the next James Bond. So I suppose the prospects are actually rather promising!


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: martyjon on September 13, 2019, 06:15:24 am
I presume plot 6 is the current station car park. When finally they demolish the Bristol Panel Signal Box I thought the plan was to bring the electric services into a modern railway station constructed in the shell of a 1800's structure. When I saw the artists impressions I commented that pax would be accessing the farthest of the reinstated platforms by a subway then as there was no indicative provision of a foot bridge shown. The answer was, "It hasn't been decided yet". I didn't let on to the consultant team who are the experts that there is a third option. Walk all the way past a 10 coach train to the buffer stop on platform 0, cross the pedestrian walkway past the buffer stop for platform -1 (minus one) to access the train which for holders of first class will be well pleased with their reserved seats being in the first coach at the London end of the rolling stock. Thus there would be 3 options to gain pedestrian access to plot 6, subway, footbridge or a walkway to a transport Hub ? on plot 6 but where would the car park currently located on plot 6 go, Oh go completely I see. I have heard mutterings that current thinking proposes to move the taxis and passenger drop off / pick up to plot 6 and give the whole of the station forecourt up to buses widening the pedestrian areas under the canopies on the forecourt to allow all bus services to be operated by double deck buses as the current 8, 9 and 72 route have to be single deckers as the road surface to canopies is insufficient headroom for a double decker. The irony of this is a few years ago the pedestrian area under the canopies was narrowed to provide a bus pull-in / lay-by so as to provide an addition lane for waiting taxis.

Must sign off now or I'll miss my 07.45 m3x MetroBus departure for its scheduled 40 minute journey to the City Promenade but I'm not hopeful of the schedule being achieved but I hope not a repeat of yesterdays 1 hour 50 minutes journey.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: grahame on September 13, 2019, 12:54:53 pm
...  . The answer was, "It hasn't been decided yet". I didn't let on to the consultant team who are the experts that there is a third option. Walk all the way past a 10 coach train to the buffer stop on platform 0, cross the pedestrian walkway past the buffer stop for platform -1 (minus one) ...

I've trimmed that to help me understand it.   Sounds like a lesson learned from Cambridge.   You join a 12 car train at the buffers of the suburban platforms at King's Cross and when it gets to Cambridge it pulls in to the new platforms (are they 5 and 6?) where you have to walk all the way to the front to the footbridge, at the extreme country end.  Having crossed the footbridge, you walk back down the original platform opposite the middle of the train you have just got off - walk approx 18 carriage lengths in total or just under 400 metres.  But accessible, of course, because the new footbridge has lifts - never mind the distance.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on September 13, 2019, 01:24:23 pm
Possibly martyjon is referring to the artist's impressions produced by AHR, which you can see here: https://www.ahr.co.uk/Temple-Meads-Regeneration

These appear to show mutually exclusive options - you can see that where there's a train in one view, there's an odd 'Space 1999'-style waiting module occupying the same space in another. I think the main point of these pictures is to give an idea of what a new roof might look like.

Access to Platform 0 will presumably be considered along with the question of how the rest of the station will be accessed from the Friary (Plot 6) side - I'm sure they won't want to block that access, and it seems most likely that a subway will be used given that the station stands on vaults.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Bmblbzzz on September 13, 2019, 04:30:51 pm
If there will be more platforms accessed via the subway, presumably there will be more passengers using it. Are there any plans to install a second lift?


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on September 13, 2019, 04:42:04 pm
If there will be more platforms accessed via the subway, presumably there will be more passengers using it. Are there any plans to install a second lift?

Until plans are published, we can only guess...


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: martyjon on September 13, 2019, 05:35:24 pm
Yea, that was the docs. Would be interesting to see a map of TM's subterranean world.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: martyjon on September 13, 2019, 07:03:17 pm
Must sign off now or I'll miss my 07.45 m3x MetroBus departure for its scheduled 40 minute journey to the City Promenade but I'm not hopeful of the schedule being achieved but I hope not a repeat of yesterdays 1 hour 50 minutes journey.

Weeeell caught the said service which was on time and arrived at the City Promenade terminus stop 5 minutes early. Yesterdays debacle could only have been weather related as this morning when those fair weather cyclists / motor cyclists surfaced and drew back their bedroom curtains to see the bootifull sunshine decreed thay'd use the bike today whereas yesterday morning their same action was greeted with p*****g down rain and used the car.

On this afternoons return I was talking to the bus driver and she told me that yesterday morning she arrived at the City Promenade terminus to return to EG behind the previous service so she radioed contral requesting instructions and was told to run NIS to EG and return to the City as soon as she arrived there and was then just 5 minutes late when she arrived at Rupert Street for her relief.

Don't laf, new timetables posted at m3 MetroBus stops bear the wrong effective from date, printed timetables and websites all state 15th September, posted timetables state 16th September. Only 24 hours later but if that was a booked cruise ship the boat will have been missed.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 12, 2019, 05:41:27 pm
Spotted an item on the very excellent roads.org.uk about the Army and Navy Flyover, in Chelmsford (https://www.roads.org.uk/blog/what-goes-must-come-down)... an interesting read, I think. Like the erstwhile Redcliffe Flyover, it was designed as a temporary fix ahead of a planned major new junction, and like its Redcliffe sibling the new road happened somewhere else. Another similarity is that the local authority is having a hard time explaining why it has to go, and why it won't be replaced.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Bmblbzzz on October 12, 2019, 08:02:00 pm
In terms of temporary flyovers outlasting their allotted span (sorry!), back in 2000 I was working in Warsaw, living on "Good Street" to give it a literal translation, on the left bank of the river very near a rickety old bridge which, I was told had been constructed right after WW2 by army engineers. All bridges in Warsaw (and most of the rest of the city) had been destroyed in 1944 so temporary bridges were the order of the day. This one was a wooden structure which you couldn't walk across (forbidden, no pavements), I certainly didn't dare cycle across (way too busy and narrow) and wasn't strong enough to carry buses. About a month after I left, they finished construction of its replacement, which is a rather splendid bridge: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Świętokrzyski_Bridge


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Bmblbzzz on October 12, 2019, 08:07:10 pm
Spotted an item on the very excellent roads.org.uk about the Army and Navy Flyover, in Chelmsford (https://www.roads.org.uk/blog/what-goes-must-come-down)... an interesting read, I think. Like the erstwhile Redcliffe Flyover, it was designed as a temporary fix ahead of a planned major new junction, and like its Redcliffe sibling the new road happened somewhere else. Another similarity is that the local authority is having a hard time explaining why it has to go, and why it won't be replaced.

Quote
"This is an emergency situation," according to the council's deputy leader Cllr Kevin Bentley, "and I would ask for patience and understanding during this challenging time." He has also bravely pledged that he will "not place any Essex resident in danger". If you listen carefully you can hear his superhero cape rippling in the breeze.
At long last Essex Man joins the Marvel Universe.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: johnneyw on November 27, 2019, 02:37:02 pm
That shining beacon of local journalism that is Bristol Live reports that the end may be in sight for the long over running road works around Temple Gate/Temple Circus. The latest estimate is for December 16.  Article link below:

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/new-date-announced-temple-circus-3580520


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: metalrail on November 27, 2019, 08:22:02 pm
Spotted an item on the very excellent roads.org.uk about the Army and Navy Flyover, in Chelmsford (https://www.roads.org.uk/blog/what-goes-must-come-down)... an interesting read, I think. Like the erstwhile Redcliffe Flyover, it was designed as a temporary fix ahead of a planned major new junction, and like its Redcliffe sibling the new road happened somewhere else. Another similarity is that the local authority is having a hard time explaining why it has to go, and why it won't be replaced.

Quote
"This is an emergency situation," according to the council's deputy leader Cllr Kevin Bentley, "and I would ask for patience and understanding during this challenging time." He has also bravely pledged that he will "not place any Essex resident in danger". If you listen carefully you can hear his superhero cape rippling in the breeze.
At long last Essex Man joins the Marvel Universe.

This part in that same report rang a few bells...
Quote
"Sadly it's actually a joint working group involving the council, a firm of consulting engineers, local residents and the city's MP who have spent the last year holding meetings to talk about how bad the traffic is"

Sound familiar?  Or in Bristol's case would it be more like several decades?   ;)


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Noggin on November 27, 2019, 09:20:40 pm
That shining beacon of local journalism that is Bristol Live reports that the end may be in sight for the long over running road works around Temple Gate/Temple Circus. The latest estimate is for December 16.  Article link below:

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/new-date-announced-temple-circus-3580520

For the benefit of those who have not been there recently it does seem to be just about done bar a bit of snagging and clearing up.

I haven't driven through it in the morning, but things seem to be much more fluid.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: chuffed on November 28, 2019, 07:26:54 am
I haven't driven through it in the morning, but things seem to be much more fluid.

Don't you mean 'flooded?'  :o


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Noggin on November 28, 2019, 04:03:02 pm
I haven't driven through it in the morning, but things seem to be much more fluid.

Don't you mean 'flooded?'  :o


Decongested ;-)


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Phantom on November 29, 2019, 10:54:54 am
As someone who commutes daily to Temple Meads then onwards using a bus from the main road, it does look like it is all finally drawing to a close

There are some very odd bits around the new design, there is a very short cycle lane outside the pub that comes and goes from nowhere, when cycle lanes coming into Bristol down the Bath / Wells Road are on the other side of the road

Agree with the above the snag list could make for a timely extension to all this


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Bmblbzzz on December 03, 2019, 09:23:27 am
Not sure which pub that is but very short cycle lanes that come and go from nowhere are all too common.
https://road.cc/content/news/269183-video-cyclist-times-himself-new-bristol-cycle-path-and-finds-its-way-quicker
Quote
It took Toby Wells, an engineer, two and a half times longer to get from Bath Bridge to Temple Way using Bristol City Council’s new Temple Gate cycle route than it did sticking to the road – clocking in respectively at 6 minutes 14 seconds and 2 minutes 24 seconds.
Although the video is of someone cycling, the problem affects pedestrians too. In part because they are forced to share the pavement with cyclists and also because the time consuming part is waiting for the lights to change.
Quote
Wells wrote: “Notice that on the road, once you get going it's green all the way through. The lights are synchronised to and adjusted by the flow of cars.

“For the ped/cycle crossings it's the opposite – either they are never green until button push (i.e. stop EVERY time), or they are specifically phased so you have to cross one junction in 2 goes, every time. Right of the vid is my no. of button pushes, and I was lucky at some!

“Also the sheer number of transitions between sharing/segregated is ridiculous. It's confusing and dangerous for pedestrians and cyclists,” he added, saying it “will undoubtedly lead to conflict.”


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on December 03, 2019, 10:34:05 am
At a meeting I attended recently, a cyclist summed it up rather well:

Quote
It's not just done badly, it's done expensively badly


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Noggin on December 03, 2019, 02:29:40 pm

There are some very odd bits around the new design, there is a very short cycle lane outside the pub that comes and goes from nowhere, when cycle lanes coming into Bristol down the Bath / Wells Road are on the other side of the road


There isn't an inbound cycle lane over the Bath Road bridge, it's outbound only.

But on the case of the very short cycle path, I think there are two possibilities:

1) The Council are taking an extreme long view, future proofing it for when the  car dealership is demolished and they can grab an extra bit of pavement
2) It's a cynical ploy to add to the length and number of cycle lanes in the city

2)


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on December 25, 2019, 10:58:12 am
Quote
The Temple Meads roadworks have FINALLY finished
It's a Christmas miracle!

[...]

A Bristol City Council spokesperson said: "We are very pleased to share that our contractors have completed a phased opening of Temple Gate which marks the end of works there.

"We would like to thank the public for their patience during the course of this project, which will improve the journeys of millions of people who use all forms of transport through the area every year, and contribute to the challenge of keeping the city moving.
Source, and full article: Bristol Post (https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/temple-meads-roadworks-finally-finished-3674142)


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: martyjon on December 25, 2019, 06:26:41 pm
But they are still in progress at Old Market which impacts on the Temple Meads road network.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Bmblbzzz on December 25, 2019, 07:41:28 pm
It was not all finished at Temple Meads at the weekend. The roads themselves were all finished but not all the pavements and cyclepaths.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Phantom on December 31, 2019, 11:53:13 am
It was not all finished at Temple Meads at the weekend. The roads themselves were all finished but not all the pavements and cyclepaths.

Out of interest what areas were not finished?


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Bmblbzzz on December 31, 2019, 11:59:58 am
A lot of the area behind the old Grosvenor Hotel building, between that and Redcliffe Way, was still fenced off. I haven't been back there since then so hopefully it's been cleared now. I can't remember if it looked finished, just that it was still fenced off.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on December 31, 2019, 12:20:09 pm
A lot of the area behind the old Grosvenor Hotel building, between that and Redcliffe Way, was still fenced off. I haven't been back there since then so hopefully it's been cleared now. I can't remember if it looked finished, just that it was still fenced off.

Still fenced off yesterday...

This area isn't part of the road network (any more!), nor is it a cycle or pedestrian route. There are plans to put up buildings along the (new) west side of Temple Gate, including a redevelopment of the Grosvenor Hotel site, and to create a new public square between Temple Gate and Redcliffe Way - sketchy details are here (https://bristol.citizenspace.com/city-design/templegate/results/-final--capture-report---temple-gate.pdf) - so it is possible that the areas that are currently fenced off may stay that way for the foreseeable future.

Edit: Further to that, 16/06842/LA on the Bristol Planning Portal (https://www.bristol.gov.uk/planning-and-building-regulations/look-at-and-track-planning-applications) gives a more detailed idea of what's planned.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Phantom on January 02, 2020, 01:09:44 pm
A lot of the area behind the old Grosvenor Hotel building, between that and Redcliffe Way, was still fenced off. I haven't been back there since then so hopefully it's been cleared now. I can't remember if it looked finished, just that it was still fenced off.
Ahh yeah, apologies I thought you meant at the station

The area you mention still looks a long way off of completion, and seemingly odd that the bold statement was made about the works being complete yet there is this massive area in the middle of it all

Another odd thing some of these new tarmacked cycle paths have white lines and graphics painted on them others don't - so that can be added to a snag list too  ;D


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: initiation on January 02, 2020, 03:49:39 pm
The timing of the pedestrian crossing going from the Grosvenor hotel to the Temple Meads side (comes out next to the car park) is woeful. It prioritises cars way to much.

Just before Christmas I was stood for a good 2-3 minutes waiting for the green man to apear. It meant my walk for a certain train went from reasonably leisurely to somewhat rushed. There isn't even a central reservation so it's more difficult to take your life into your own hands and cross halfway. Probably worth walking a bit further to cross opposite the station ramp instead.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: chuffed on January 02, 2020, 03:54:21 pm
I couldn't agree more with the previous poster. This definitely needs looking at again.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on January 02, 2020, 05:24:56 pm
The timing of the pedestrian crossing going from the Grosvenor hotel to the Temple Meads side (comes out next to the car park) is woeful. It prioritises cars way to much.

This whole scheme is a curate's egg, if ever there was one. On the one hand we have road space being turned to public realm at Temple Square and, to some extent, Redcliffe Way; a Good Thing. On the other we have a road network which just makes you long for the day (soon, surely!) when the current generation of highways engineers retires.

As one who regularly fulminates about the glacial pace of rail improvement projects, I have to say that Bristol's efforts to squeeze out the private motor car are even more frustrating. Over 20 years since the Inner Circuit Road ceased to exist, we are still building huge roads that route massive amounts of traffic through the most sensitive parts of town. Meanwhile, while cyclists choose whether to stay on the main road and pass Temple Meads in 2 minutes or use expensive new cycle lanes that allow them to get through in over 6, pedestrians watch the cars (and minutes) pass by and hope they still have time to get to the other side of the road to catch their train of bus...



Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: grahame on January 02, 2020, 05:30:45 pm
As one who regularly fulminates about the glacial pace of rail improvement projects, I have to say that Bristol's efforts to squeeze out the private motor car are even more frustrating. Over 20 years since the Inner Circuit Road ceased to exist, we are still building huge roads that route massive amounts of traffic through the most sensitive parts of town. Meanwhile, while cyclists choose whether to stay on the main road and pass Temple Meads in 2 minutes or use expensive new cycle lanes that allow them to get through in over 6, pedestrians watch the cars (and minutes) pass by and hope they still have time to get to the other side of the road to catch their train of bus...

I can't help wondering if we might look for a third dimension to solve this?   From The BBC (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-50096640) earlier today, and what comes to Singapore in 2035 could come to Bristol in the following few years.

Quote
Volocopter is planning shorter journeys from bespoke Voloports and by 2035 aims to have dozens of these across Singapore, able to handle 10,000 passengers a day.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: TonyK on January 02, 2020, 06:24:00 pm

I can't help wondering if we might look for a third dimension to solve this?   From The BBC (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-50096640) earlier today, and what comes to Singapore in 2035 could come to Bristol in the following few years.

Quote
Volocopter is planning shorter journeys from bespoke Voloports and by 2035 aims to have dozens of these across Singapore, able to handle 10,000 passengers a day.

If Bristol were to follow its usual processes for public transport, the Volocopter vehicles would be introduced just as they were becoming obsolete everywhere else, used to fly a couple of visiting cabinet ministers from Temple Meads to City Hall, then quietly forgotten about.  ;D

I visited Singapore in April last year, and it is somewhere I want to go back to. I called into the Marina Sands Hotel - the big one with three skyscrapers joined by the Sky Park on top - to get some tickets and to get into the impressive gardens opposite. I saw the fireworks and drones display on New Years Eve on TV (watch on catch-up if you missed it), and if the Volocopter idea can be done anywhere, it will happen in Singapore. I shan't be first to try it though - I watched the demonstration video, and the controls looked like normal helicopter controls. I tried flying a helicopter once, and it wasn't as easy as I thought it would be, even though I had thought it would be pretty difficult. I also would like to see what happens when one of the many engines stops running before my first flight as a passenger. Anyway, Singapore's normal taxis are very good, and not expensive.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: johnneyw on January 02, 2020, 06:55:48 pm
I can't help wondering if we might look for a third dimension to solve this?   From The BBC (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-50096640) earlier today, and what comes to Singapore in 2035 could come to Bristol in the following few years.

In the words of Neils Bohr:
Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future.



Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Bmblbzzz on January 02, 2020, 07:40:32 pm
The timing of the pedestrian crossing going from the Grosvenor hotel to the Temple Meads side (comes out next to the car park) is woeful. It prioritises cars way to much.

Just before Christmas I was stood for a good 2-3 minutes waiting for the green man to apear. It meant my walk for a certain train went from reasonably leisurely to somewhat rushed. There isn't even a central reservation so it's more difficult to take your life into your own hands and cross halfway. Probably worth walking a bit further to cross opposite the station ramp instead.
The one with the countdown display? It's good in that it's much easier to see the green man than on the normal-for-Bristol display on the post by your elbow. Shame that green man is only lit for 7 seconds (I timed it) and, yes, an even bigger shame you have to wait so long for it.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: TonyK on January 02, 2020, 08:27:26 pm
The timing of the pedestrian crossing going from the Grosvenor hotel to the Temple Meads side (comes out next to the car park) is woeful. It prioritises cars way to much.

Just before Christmas I was stood for a good 2-3 minutes waiting for the green man to apear. It meant my walk for a certain train went from reasonably leisurely to somewhat rushed. There isn't even a central reservation so it's more difficult to take your life into your own hands and cross halfway. Probably worth walking a bit further to cross opposite the station ramp instead.
The one with the countdown display? It's good in that it's much easier to see the green man than on the normal-for-Bristol display on the post by your elbow. Shame that green man is only lit for 7 seconds (I timed it) and, yes, an even bigger shame you have to wait so long for it.

Don't worry. It will be changed after the third serious accident.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Phantom on January 03, 2020, 12:08:54 pm
The timing of the pedestrian crossing going from the Grosvenor hotel to the Temple Meads side (comes out next to the car park) is woeful. It prioritises cars way to much.

Just before Christmas I was stood for a good 2-3 minutes waiting for the green man to apear. It meant my walk for a certain train went from reasonably leisurely to somewhat rushed. There isn't even a central reservation so it's more difficult to take your life into your own hands and cross halfway. Probably worth walking a bit further to cross opposite the station ramp instead.

The difference with this junction though is that it only responds to someone pressing the button to cross where as all the others in that area just interact with the combination of red lights for the traffic.

I often use this crossing and hate to say I've never waited as long as you mention, but would assume that the crossing had just reset back to red man, so there is a minimum time before going back to the green man again

I assume that you still went up the incline when you had crossed the road though?
Otherwise you were lengthening your walk up to the station anyway going through the Temple Quay entrance


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on January 03, 2020, 01:58:12 pm
I assume that you still went up the incline when you had crossed the road though?
Otherwise you were lengthening your walk up to the station anyway going through the Temple Quay entrance

According to my rough-and-ready calculation, the distance from the crossing by the Grosvenor Hotel to Platform 3 via Friary is about 385m, whereas via the Incline it is 388m. Not much in it either way, but apparently 60% of people enter through the Friary entrance these days.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: Red Squirrel on January 03, 2020, 05:11:42 pm
I can't help wondering if we might look for a third dimension to solve this?   

If 'dystopia' was a word, then a sky full of drones and air-Ubers would define it perfectly.


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: TonyK on January 05, 2020, 02:15:50 pm

If 'dystopia' was a word, then a sky full of drones and air-Ubers would define it perfectly.

I bet not many of the "visionaries" have thought about that, Red Squirrel, just thee and me. The city sky full of buzzing delivery drones and electric flying (and doubtless occasionally plunging) taxis seems a heavy price to pay for the rapid delivery of the Blu-ray box set of David Attenborough's latest series, or your novelty  Greta Thunberg mug. (https://www.redbubble.com/people/ukawa/works/41347665-greta-thunberg-how-dare-you?p=mug&style=standard&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=g.pla+notset&country_code=GB&gclid=Cj0KCQiAr8bwBRD4ARIsAHa4YyK03jnm_HeiO3g3kH6L49JmiSsrTIQAqgROa5wkaB41tBFQbFJGDXgaApfGEALw_wcB)


Title: Re: Bristol's Temple Gate layout change planned in £21m revamp
Post by: stuving on January 05, 2020, 03:05:44 pm
If you want examples of dystopiary, just come and look at my garden.



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