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All across the Great Western territory => The Wider Picture in the United Kingdom => Topic started by: stuving on February 12, 2015, 09:45:22



Title: "free wi-fi on trains across England and Wales from 2017"
Post by: stuving on February 12, 2015, 09:45:22
From this DfT press release (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/free-wi-fi-to-help-rail-commuters-stay-connected) yesterday:
Quote
Free wi-fi to help rail commuters stay connected
From:Department for Transport, HM Treasury, Claire Perry MP and The Rt Hon Danny Alexander MP
First published:11 February 2015

Rail passengers to benefit from on-board wi-fi across England and Wales.

Rail passengers will benefit from free wi-fi on trains across England and Wales from 2017, Rail Minister Claire Perry announced today (11 February 2015).

Train operators are being asked to set how they will meet the commitment to provide this important service for passengers. All train operators bidding for new franchises and direct award agreements will have to include this specification in their bid.

Where there is no new franchise agreement due in the next 2 years, almost ^50 million of funding will be released from the Department for Transport to ensure wi-fi is available on selected services from 2017. The operators in this group are:

Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern (TSGN)
Southeastern
Chiltern
Arriva Trains Wales.

...

Chief Secretary to the Treasury Danny Alexander said:

"As someone who regularly travels from the north of Scotland around the country, I appreciate the value of fast, cheap internet connections on trains for both leisure and business travellers. That^s why the government is earmarking around ^50 million to provide free wi-fi on trains; this and our other franchising improvements mean that nearly three-quarters of rail journeys will be made on trains with wi-fi provision."

The department has challenged rail industry operators to begin installing equipment as soon as possible to deliver wi-fi by 2017.

The operators will now work with the department to develop detailed proposals identifying the most appropriate services and routes to benefit. Funding will be awarded subject to satisfactory proposals being received from TSGN, Southeastern, Chiltern, and Arriva Trains Wales.

Some operators have already installed equipment to provide improved mobile coverage on-board their trains, or are in the process of doing so. By targeting the investment at franchises that would otherwise have no immediate plans to introduce wi-fi, the government is ensuring that as many passengers as possible benefit.

The ^47.8 million funding is money that Network Rail has been required to return to the government for missing punctuality targets set by the Office of Rail Regulation. It is the first time such money has been reinvested into improvements targeted at passengers.

Out of the ^53.1 million total penalty against Network Rail, ^5.3 million has been allocated to the Scottish government, in line with the proportion of the penalty paid by Network Rail for late train running in Scotland.

Now what kind of incentive does that give to ToCs to invest in such extra customer services?

And note how "across England and Wales" mutates into "nearly three-quarters of rail journeys" in the text.


Title: Re: "free wi-fi on trains across England and Wales from 2017"
Post by: Rhydgaled on February 12, 2015, 09:57:40
Interesting to see that TSGN is included on that list. Now why didn't the DfT specify Wi-Fi on the new class 700 fleet for TSGN?

I also wonder how much of the ATW fleet/network will get Wi-Fi.


Title: Re: "free wi-fi on trains across England and Wales from 2017"
Post by: grahame on February 12, 2015, 10:18:10
I'm starting to make use of the WiFi when travelling on HST services on FGW - it's a strong encouragement to me to use the train even if my journey time is extended and although it's not bringing any direct income to First, I suspect it will help in customer retention and market development.

But I'm not seeing anything about WiFi extension in the FGW area onto other long distance services such as Portsmouth to Cardiff, or Bristol to Penzance services run by class 15x units.   Is there a chance this will be in the franchise from September? 


Title: Re: "free wi-fi on trains across England and Wales from 2017"
Post by: stuving on February 12, 2015, 10:23:06
Well, there's an inference to be drawn, isn't there -
Quote
Where there is no new franchise agreement due in the next 2 years ...
That suggests that, where there is, something will be included. Maybe not a 100% must-have, perhaps more of a "brownie points on offer for"?


Title: Re: "free wi-fi on trains across England and Wales from 2017"
Post by: insider on February 20, 2015, 15:57:25
Not sure if posted elsewhere....but


Can Confirm that Wi-Fi fitment on the 16X fleet has now commenced.


Title: Re: "free wi-fi on trains across England and Wales from 2017"
Post by: thetrout on February 20, 2015, 17:35:51
Wouldn't mind seeing some Power Sockets and WiFi on our Class 158s.

Even if the power sockets were limited to a newly created First Class section. It would be useful for long journeys.

I've used the WiFi with FGW HSTs and I am extremely impressed. Train WiFi for once that has been done properly...

(http://www.speedtest.net/result/3952525666.png)

(http://www.speedtest.net/result/4007421713.png)

Whereas CrossCountry Complimentary in First Class... >:(

(http://www.speedtest.net/result/4052776777.png)

A Cellphone Connection using an inbuilt 3G Modem in a Laptop...

(http://www.speedtest.net/result/4158094656.png)

Finally my home connection just on it's own... I can double this speed if I bond it with my business connection...

(http://www.speedtest.net/result/4020501910.png)


Title: Re: "free wi-fi on trains across England and Wales from 2017"
Post by: ChrisB on February 20, 2015, 18:40:25
Strewth! Who supplies that latter connection? Guess its a fibre connection?


Title: Re: "free wi-fi on trains across England and Wales from 2017"
Post by: thetrout on February 20, 2015, 19:26:41
Strewth! Who supplies that latter connection? Guess its a fibre connection?

I'm not going to break the rules of advertising on the forum :P

But Virgin Trains I'm told have launched new 152MB/s Services... Oh no sorry. 125mph services many years ago ;D


Title: Re: "free wi-fi on trains across England and Wales from 2017"
Post by: ellendune on February 20, 2015, 20:11:30
A Cellphone Connection using an inbuilt 3G Modem in a Laptop...

That's not much use on Cross Country between Birmingham and Cheltenham Spa as there is almost no 3G available on the whole route.


Title: Re: "free wi-fi on trains across England and Wales from 2017"
Post by: JayMac on February 20, 2015, 22:21:07
What's the future with on train WiFi?

Currently trains can use either linking to a cell network or a satellite uplink. Is the future with those options which will continue to improve over time as new technology increases speeds and coverage? Or will we see the railways go with the in house solution of using spare bandwith on the railway specific GSM-R network? Are there inherent dangers in opening up parts of the GSM-R spectrum to public access?


Title: Re: "free wi-fi on trains across England and Wales from 2017"
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on February 20, 2015, 22:22:31
I've used the WiFi with FGW HSTs and I am extremely impressed. Train WiFi for once that has been done properly...
Alas, nothing like that once you get beyond Oxford on our line - I gave up trying to run load speedtest.net this evening. Very unimpressive.


Title: Re: "free wi-fi on trains across England and Wales from 2017"
Post by: stuving on February 20, 2015, 23:49:38
What's the future with on train WiFi?

Currently trains can use either linking to a cell network or a satellite uplink. Is the future with those options which will continue to improve over time as new technology increases speeds and coverage? Or will we see the railways go with the in house solution of using spare bandwith on the railway specific GSM-R network? Are there inherent dangers in opening up parts of the GSM-R spectrum to public access?

The DfT announcement in the OP was largely a repeat of one in July (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/plans-unveiled-to-boost-wi-fi-on-trains). That contained this:
Quote
The work will complement an upgrade currently taking place on Network Rail^s trackside infrastructure to ensure that a good signal is available up and down the busiest rail routes.

There are statements by NR and others that the fibre lineside network is largely built, which can provide more than enough backhaul for on-board WiFI and phone users. There are other statements that NR planned to provide radio equipment mounted on GSM-R towers for the train-shore links - presumably LTE ("4G"). Note this isn't a mobile phone system - it's point-point - but it uses the same radio standards. However, I can't find anything concrete about that programme - what it is, what spectrum it uses, how far it's got, where it is being put, etc.

There is the obvious point that the two ends of such a link are operated and owned by different parties. They might agree on a design solution, and each buy the right bits for it, but that would involve a big engineering overhead just to do the paperwork and it still might not work well.

So I await confirmation of exactly what is being done. Note that a ToC might in any case add this new capacity to a solution involving satellite, mobile phone, are whatever.


Title: Re: "free wi-fi on trains across England and Wales from 2017"
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 21, 2015, 10:44:05
Can Confirm that Wi-Fi fitment on the 16X fleet has now commenced.

Yes, I hadn't realised until fairly recently that the Turbo units were getting free wi-fi fitted as well as the 180s and HSTs.  Excellent news.


Title: Re: "free wi-fi on trains across England and Wales from 2017"
Post by: stuving on March 10, 2015, 13:00:26
I'm still looking for hard data about this plan to provide on-board Wifi and mobile phone services via a radio link to a kind of base station that NR will install on GSM-R masts. The fibre network that would connect those boxes to the world has mostly been built already. I can't find anything to tell me how far the plan has got. That may be partly because I do not know what it is called (my friend Google is so very literal-minded).

This was part of the CP5 Strategic Business Plan, and appears in the document "SBP Asset Management Services" (http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/strategicbusinessplan/cp5/supporting%20documents/our%20activity%20and%20expenditure%20plans/asset%20management%20services.pdf) (dated January 2013). However, this is even worse written than most of the SBP, and stuffed full of aspirational jargon. The relevant words are in the section headed "Network Rail Telecom (NRT) ":

Quote
Partnering
NRT needs to deliver 4G mobile data services for future train operational needs, ORBIS trackside applications and passenger Wi-fi. Our strategy is to partner with one or more partners, using their spectrum and our physical masts and backhaul assets to build this network at least cost to Network Rail. This in turn will drive value added service provision and help meet strategic themes.

Market Segmentation Strategy
NRT currently delivers services via Layer 0 in the diagram below ^ Using the existing low capacity FTN network and 3rd party services from BT and Level 3 to run the railway. Layer 1A is the first step in extending the network to support future rail operational needs. FTNx ^ a new high speed network overlaid on FTN ^ will support data hungry services (SCADA, TM, ROCs, Corporate Voice and DATA) and high definition CCTV while allowing NRT to migrate from 3rd party suppliers and bring down provision costs. Using FTNx, layer 1B services will be extended to the rail family along the rail corridor ^ connecting TOC stations, depots and switching centres to more efficiently run the railway. Consideration will be given to full utilise strategic partnerships Layers 2 and 3 will extend FTNx and mobile services beyond the rail corridor to run our rail family corporate functions and have potential to support CNI networks such as the British Transport Police. Finally, Layer 4 services will be considered proving traditional wholesale and enterprise data services and supporting UK PLC through rural broadband initiatives etc.

The layers are shown in the diagram.

Has anyone else seen anything at all concrete? I've even tried looking for technical articles on how LTE would be used in this application - on the grounds it should be at least a partly-open standard - but found nothing about the UK.


Title: Re: "free wi-fi on trains across England and Wales from 2017"
Post by: ChrisB on March 10, 2015, 13:28:27
I think itr has barely started & nothing yet is in the public domain


Title: Re: "free wi-fi on trains across England and Wales from 2017"
Post by: stuving on January 07, 2018, 09:56:52
I'm still looking for hard data about this plan to provide on-board Wifi and mobile phone services via a radio link to a kind of base station that NR will install on GSM-R masts. The fibre network that would connect those boxes to the world has mostly been built already. I can't find anything to tell me how far the plan has got. That may be partly because I do not know what it is called (my friend Google is so very literal-minded).
...
Has anyone else seen anything at all concrete? I've even tried looking for technical articles on how LTE would be used in this application - on the grounds it should be at least a partly-open standard - but found nothing about the UK.

Well, after a bit of a delay, I have found an answer to my questions - it's called project SWIFT. From ISPreview UK (https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2017/09/scotrail-trains-test-300mbps-superfast-board-wi-fi-service.html):
Quote
ScotRail Trains Test up to 300Mbps “Superfast” On-Board Wi-Fi Service
Monday, September 18th, 2017

Scottish train operator ScotRail has partnered up with Cisco, CGI, Network Rail Telecoms and Wittos to conduct a Proof of Concept trial to enable “super-fast” WiFi on trains (Project SWIFT), which could offer data speeds of up to 300Mbps (allegedly the “fastest in-train Wi-Fi service in the world“).
...
The intention behind Project SWIFT, which is being funded by the Rail Safety and Standards Board (RSSB) and Innovate UK, is to provide a viable alternative that can offer “internet speeds on the go” of up to 300Mbps (Megabits per second). Currently, those travelling by train between Scotland’s two biggest cities can apparently only “access less than 10% of that capability” (note: c.30Mbps still sounds pretty good for a train but that capacity has to be shared between many users).

At present the new technology has only been implemented on a full-scale train at a test track in Stratford-upon-Avon, although it will now see a “limited duration roll-out” on one of the current fleet of ScotRail trains that operate services between Glasgow and Edinburgh.

The project will utilise existing trackside fibre optic cable to backhaul data from trackside masts. The masts will use unlicensed Wi-Fi spectrum to connect trains to the fibre, with a lossless session handover between masts as low as 2ms (milliseconds). Both existing and newly installed masts will be used along the Edinburgh-Glasgow route to ensure that consistent coverage can be trialled along the line, regardless of tunnels and cuttings.
...
The proof of concept trial will commence later this year, and run until the end of March 2018. After that a decision will be made about whether or not to roll-out the service to more trains, not only in Scotland but also other parts of the United Kingdom.

Project SWIFT hopes to highlight how high-speed in-carriage connectivity will improve the experience for passengers and help train operators provide better, more reliable and profitable services. The project will also investigate what becomes possible when you add data and insight to connections.

So it seems that Network Rail went to talk to the parties concerned with the other bits of their proposed system, on the train and elsewhere, and did not find a single ready-made solution. So they have looked for a partner, and found Cisco, which is a bit of a surprise as they are not known as a radio company. I have not found anything to tell me what the radio link is - I presume "LTE" is still likely to be the label, though it's not very specific, and one source said "unlicensed spectrum" (likewise).



Title: Re: "free wi-fi on trains across England and Wales from 2017"
Post by: stuving on January 07, 2018, 10:08:05
On a rather more depressing note, more net/web/phone access on trains means more of being a captive audience for what other people want to get out of you. From 1to1.link (https://wittos.portal.azure-api.net/open-innovation-challenge):
Quote
Project SWIFT Open Innovation Challenge

The Project SWIFT Open Innovation Challenge is an exciting part of the Innovate UK & RSSB project enabling super-fast Wi-Fi on trains. The objective is to enhance passenger experience in rail travel and Project SWIFT is looking for SMEs to join the ride.

As the first project of its kind, the Project SWIFT project will utilise existing trackside fibre to enable Wi-Fi backhaul, which will require advanced service management and session handover at a minimal 2 milliseconds. Besides aiming to provide 300MB of consistent connectivity, which has to date only been demonstrated in lab environments, Project SWIFT will launch the scotrail.1to1.link, a WiFi connected app store providing real-time open APIs powered by Wittos Connected Intelligence platform. The 1to1.link platform opens opportunities to digitally connect and engage with onboard passengers in a whole new way.

The Project SWIFT Open Innovation Challenge is looking for developers to build applications to leverage the 1to1.link open API platform to address three problem statements in the areas of destination marketing, disruption management & wildcard. You will be able to access a unique set of real-time APIs and engage with a cross-section of stakeholders during an 8-week virtual incubator.

This proof of concept project is a collaboration between consortium partners: ScotRail, Cisco, Level 3 Communications, CGI, Wittos, Intersection Analytics.

Sign up now for access to the Project SWIFT Open Innovation Challenge API and sample data

There's a prize for anyone who knows what "the areas of destination marketing, disruption management & wildcard" are in this context (from 1to1.link, not me, obviously).


Title: Re: "free wi-fi on trains across England and Wales from 2017"
Post by: Electric train on January 07, 2018, 14:19:00
It would be great if SE Trains and GTR even contemplated fitting WiFi, travellers on GWR by and large have a reasonably good free WiFi if you use Virgin Westcoast as a standard passenger you have to pay for WiFi.

The DfT on the Thameslink Class 700 failed to specify passenger WiFi in the procurement spec despite Siemens and at the FCC pointing out the folly of their ways ..................... now DfT are having to pay Siemens to retro fit WiFi and GTR to operate it ................... oh an pay NR to crash fit the infrastructure ................. you just cannot make this stuff up


Title: Re: "free wi-fi on trains across England and Wales from 2017"
Post by: ChrisB on January 08, 2018, 20:47:02
Virgin West Coast now provide free wifi I understand as long as you book through their own website


Title: Re: "free wi-fi on trains across England and Wales from 2017"
Post by: Electric train on January 08, 2018, 22:37:11
Virgin West Coast now provide free wifi I understand as long as you book through their own website

Which is pants compared to GWR.

Note the cuddly warm approach to travellers of a certain non-dom  ::)


Title: Re: "free wi-fi on trains across England and Wales from 2017"
Post by: ChrisB on January 09, 2018, 09:34:13
Actually, their wifivid far more stable and unrestricted than GWRs is.


Title: Re: "free wi-fi on trains across England and Wales from 2017"
Post by: TaplowGreen on January 09, 2018, 09:48:59
Actually, their wifivid far more stable and unrestricted than GWRs is.

I agree, GWR's is often hopeless.


Title: Re: "free wi-fi on trains across England and Wales from 2017"
Post by: Sixty3Closure on February 26, 2018, 12:44:14
I used it for the first time coming back from Swansea last week and it was good at the start of the journey. Less so later on. I don't know if that was because the train was packed or I'd used up my data allowance. I wasn't really paying attention but I think it said after 15Mb of data it would be throttled. I did read that first as 15mbs download but pretty sure it was data. Not a very generous amount and I don't know how much it throttled it back after hitting that.


Title: Re: "free wi-fi on trains across England and Wales from 2017"
Post by: ChrisB on February 26, 2018, 13:01:01
its data. And the throttled speed depends on the number accessing the wifi at the time.

Either way, if you have 4G, it's quicker when available.


Title: Re: "free wi-fi on trains across England and Wales from 2017"
Post by: grahame on February 26, 2018, 13:04:14
... said after 15Mb of data it would be throttled ...Not a very generous amount and I don't know how much it throttled it back after hitting that.

I wonder at the graphic of the IET that comes up as you log in, and the advert for 1st class upgrades (on a 158 too!) and wonder if they include that in your allowance.    Strikes me that with a simpler login screen with less graphic content, more WiFi capacity might just be available for the 'real use' ...


Title: Re: "free wi-fi on trains across England and Wales from 2017"
Post by: stuving on July 24, 2020, 17:19:30
While there's been general progress in providing on-board WiFi on more trains, the big promises don't seem to have been met yet. As far as I know, all TOCs are buying a backhaul service from MNOs. But work has continued on railway-specific radio links to trackside infrastructure, and there was an OFCOM report in 2018 looking at potentially suitable spectrum (update due on Monday).

Now DfT are stumping up £200,000 (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/200000-boost-for-better-mobile-connections-on-rail-network) for an antenna to fit to OLE structures: 
Quote

New funding for antenna prototype will help avoid internet blackouts on train journeys.
Published 24 July 2020   
  •    Transport Secretary announces £200,000 towards research into developing an innovative antenna prototype for rail gantries, helping to make internet blackouts on the commute a thing of the past
  •    government-backed research has found that updating existing infrastructure is an affordable solution to improving mobile connectivity for passengers
  •    telecomms service providers urged to work with Network Rail to come up with innovative designs for trial phase of project

There was a study done for DfT by Mott MacDonald, described as a feasibility study, and DfT have published what appears to be the resulting report (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/mounting-small-cells-and-wireless-antennas-on-railway-overhead-line-equipment-structures-feasibility-study). However, I'd say that is just a list of constraints and issues, and the necessary approvals, standards etc. It does not address feasibility - i.e. "will it work?". In any case, that list of don'ts and don'ts is pretty daunting.



Title: Re: "free wi-fi on trains across England and Wales from 2017"
Post by: Clan Line on July 24, 2020, 21:01:46
Very silly passing thought................

Why don't they use the 25KV lines in the same way that domestic premises use Powerline Adapters on the 240V lines round the home ?


Title: Re: "free wi-fi on trains across England and Wales from 2017"
Post by: TonyN on July 24, 2020, 21:48:37
So all we need to do now is electrify all lines so that the Ariels can be added to the gantries. ;D


Title: Re: "free wi-fi on trains across England and Wales from 2017"
Post by: TonyN on July 25, 2020, 09:20:32
I forgot to say in the last post that the electrification would have to be 25Kv OLE on all lines of course. Including changing all third rail DC to 25Kv OLE.


Title: Re: "free wi-fi on trains across England and Wales from 2017"
Post by: eXPassenger on July 25, 2020, 13:28:18
Very silly passing thought................

Why don't they use the 25KV lines in the same way that domestic premises use Powerline Adapters on the 240V lines round the home ?

Powerline runs through fixed wiring.  Trying to run an interference free permanent connection between the pantograph and OLE wiring would be impossible.  Every time you see a spark from a pantograph that would be a dropped connection and a major burst of interference.  You would also lose the connection in neutral sections.

On a wider issue there would be significant radio noise emitted from the wiring.  This noise is one of the reasons that National Grid were opposed when they wanted to use their cables for internet connectivity.


Title: Re: "free wi-fi on trains across England and Wales from 2017"
Post by: Clan Line on July 25, 2020, 15:04:45
Very silly passing thought................

Why don't they use the 25KV lines in the same way that domestic premises use Powerline Adapters on the 240V lines round the home ?

Powerline runs through fixed wiring.  Trying to run an interference free permanent connection between the pantograph and OLE wiring would be impossible.  Every time you see a spark from a pantograph that would be a dropped connection and a major burst of interference.  You would also lose the connection in neutral sections.

On a wider issue there would be significant radio noise emitted from the wiring.  This noise is one of the reasons that National Grid were opposed when they wanted to use their cables for internet connectivity.

That's why I said a "very silly" thought.....................but having said that I have seen sillier things enacted on the railways   ;D


Title: Re: "free wi-fi on trains across England and Wales from 2017"
Post by: eXPassenger on July 25, 2020, 15:14:54
Very silly passing thought................

Why don't they use the 25KV lines in the same way that domestic premises use Powerline Adapters on the 240V lines round the home ?

Powerline runs through fixed wiring.  Trying to run an interference free permanent connection between the pantograph and OLE wiring would be impossible.  Every time you see a spark from a pantograph that would be a dropped connection and a major burst of interference.  You would also lose the connection in neutral sections.

On a wider issue there would be significant radio noise emitted from the wiring.  This noise is one of the reasons that National Grid were opposed when they wanted to use their cables for internet connectivity.

That's why I said a "very silly" thought.....................but having said that I have seen sillier things enacted on the railways   ;D

No problems, I have always believed that not asking the question in the first place is the silly thought.


Title: Re: "free wi-fi on trains across England and Wales from 2017"
Post by: stuving on October 18, 2020, 12:20:24
After more than five years, they are still at it. There was a mention in this morning's Sunday Times, but the launch announcement was in March - this is from Bloomberg (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-04/network-rail-said-to-seek-partners-for-1-9-billion-fiber-plan):
Quote
Network Rail Said to Seek Partners for $1.9 Billion Fiber Plan

The company that manages Britain?s railroads is looking for partners to help fund a fiber-optic network that would improve wireless connections for train passengers, people familiar with the matter said.

State-backed Network Rail Ltd. is working with an adviser to help conduct a strategic review and gauge investor interest in the project, according to the people, who asked not to be identified as the information is private.

Patchy mobile signals and low bandwidth are a constant problem for U.K. rail users already exasperated by some of Europe?s least reliable train services. The government is pushing communications providers to improve nationwide broadband speeds.

Network Rail is seeking investors to contribute as much as 1.5 billion pounds ($1.9 billion), which will include a mix of new lines and upgrades of existing infrastructure, one of the people said.

A formal process will take place in the second half of the year, they said, while cautioning that no final decisions have been made and the government may resolve not to bring in new investors.

?Our telecoms network greatly assists the running of the railway and we routinely review its potential to deliver future benefits to passengers and the railway,? the company said in an emailed statement.

Network Rail?s new and upgraded fiber lines will pave the way for fifth-generation wireless services that will offer passengers more powerful data and video and more reliable voice connections. It?s one of several fiber broadband projects aimed at meeting Prime Minister Boris Johnson?s goal of ?gigabit-capable? internet speeds across the country by 2025.

Network Rail already has almost 20,000 kilometers (12,400 miles) of fiber-optic cable providing communications for the national railway network, according to its website. It looked at selling its telecom assets four years ago, reportedly holding talks with companies like BT Group Plc and Virgin Media, but shelved the plans.



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