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All across the Great Western territory => The Wider Picture - related rail and other transport issues => Topic started by: JayMac on February 28, 2015, 16:48:44



Title: Farewell East Coast. Hello Virgin Trains East Coast.
Post by: JayMac on February 28, 2015, 16:48:44
Today is the last day of operation for the publicly owned TOC East Coast.

From tomorrow, 1st March 2015, inter-city services between London King's Cross and Yorkshire/North East/Scotland will be operated by Virgin Trains East Coast (VTEC).

VTEC is a joint venture between Stagecoach (90%) and Virgin (10%). Although Stagecoach are the majority partner in the TOC, the service (trains, stations, online presence) will use the 'Virgin' brand.

(https://www.eastcoast.co.uk/contentassets/d80f6de1e4d543f297ff20ed1314b00c/east-coast-news.jpg)

New website: http://www.virgintrainseastcoast.com/

The first timetabled train service operated by VTEC will be the 0755 Newcastle-King's Cross. There are, however, Rail Replacement Buses from Doncaster-Peterborough at 0655 and 0745 which are being operated on behalf of VTEC. So these are technically the first services of the new franchise. Perils of handing over on a Sunday!

There will be a launch service on Monday 2nd March 2015 from King's Cross to Edinburgh. One '225' set (Class 91, 9xMk4, DVT) is currently being re-liveried and it will form the 1100 KGX-EDB.

From the Herald Scotland (http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/transport/new-east-coast-livery-to-be-unveiled-in-edinburgh-as-stagecoach-virgin-group-take-ove.119478759):

Quote
New East Coast livery to be unveiled in Edinburgh as Stagecoach-Virgin group take over rail franchise

PASSENGERS travelling on the East Coast Main Line will get their first glimpse of the franchise's new livery on Monday when a Virgin branded train completes its inaugural journey from London to Scotland.

The East Coast franchise makes its controversial move back to the private sector tomorrow when Inter-City Rail (ICR), a Stagecoach-Virgin consortium, will begin running services on the route.

Although Stagecoach is the majority stakeholder, the fleet will carry the Virgin brand and the eight-year franchise will operate as Virgin Trains East Coast.

Customers boarding trains north and south tomorrow, however, are unlikely to notice any visible difference in the rolling stock.

As a short-term fix, the new franchise holders plan to decorate the front and sides of as many East Coast trains as possible with the Virgin logo and distinctive red stripe as a "nod" to the new owners.

Wholescale rebranding of the fleet, inside and out, will be carried out gradually over the coming months.

However, train-spotters and passengers will get first sight of the design on Monday when the only fully liveried Virgin East Coast train pulls into Edinburgh Waverley after completing its inaugural journey from London.

The train is scheduled to depart King's Cross at 11am, calling at York, Darlington, Newcastle and Berwick-upon-Tweed before arriving in Scottish capital at 3.20pm.

David Horne, the managing director of Virgin Trains East Coast, will be among those on board, along with colleagues from the new operator's senior leadership team.

The Department for Transport has faced criticism over the decision to re-privatise the franchise. East Coast has been in state ownership since November 2009 after the then operator National Express attempted to buy itself out of the franchise, which was losing money and passengers.

Opponents say it has generated ^1 billion for the exchequer over the last five years and should remain in public hands.

The new franchise-holders have already run into trouble with the industry's competition watchdog. The Competition and Markets Authority (CMA) warned there was a "realistic prospect" of higher fares or reduced service quality on sections of the route which overlap with existing Stagecoach-run services, such as the Edinburgh to Aberdeen tranche which is also covered by Citylink buses.

There has also been mounting disquiet from campaigners over the decision to replace the generous East Coast Rewards loyalty club with a Nectar points scheme that offers customers poorer value for money.

For its part, the Stagecoach-Virgin consortium have promised to cut journey times between London and Edinburgh to four hours from 2019 and invest ^140m in improving the service.

During the first two years, the group has pledged to spend ^13.4m revamping the existing train fleet, including a "deep clean" of the entire rolling stock, refurbished toilets, new carpets and seat covers, and new on-train signage.

Extra weekday services between Edinburgh and London are planned from May 2016, with half-hourly frequency for most of the day and an additional Sunday service

From 2018, it will introduce 65 new Super Express trains with free on-board WiFi and at seat meals for all passengers, along with an app that allows passengers to order a meal to their seat before or during the journey.

New timetables in May 2019 will see the launch of an express Edinburgh to London service on weekdays, calling only at Newcastle. At four hours, it will be 20 minutes quicker than the current fastest service between the two cities.

There will also be a 50 per cent increase in capacity across the franchise by 2020, taking the total number of seats to 12,200, along with the addition of 500 extra car parking spaces and 50 per cent more cycle storage along the route.


Title: Re: Farewell East Coast. Hello Virgin Trains East Coast.
Post by: Adelante_CCT on February 28, 2015, 17:37:18

Quote

New timetables in May 2019 will see the launch of an express Edinburgh to London service on weekdays, calling only at Newcastle. At four hours, it will be 20 minutes quicker than the current fastest service between the two cities.


So the 05:40 off Edinburgh isn't currently 4 hours?!


Title: Re: Farewell East Coast. Hello Virgin Trains East Coast.
Post by: thetrout on February 28, 2015, 21:59:33
Just punched in for a 1ST Advance for the 11:00 KGX - EDG @ ^83.15 which is the same price as Newcastle also.

So was thinking for a day out I might do this trip and come back on the Sleeper. However if I was looking at a flexible ticket such as the FSR @ ^225.05 FGW's booking page suggests I need 2 singles and cannot simply pay a supplement for the Sleeper?!

Have I got this right? If so, how can this be?


Title: Re: Farewell East Coast. Hello Virgin Trains East Coast.
Post by: JayMac on March 01, 2015, 03:55:56
Some Class 91 locos have already got a temporary 'Virgin' vinyl:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/richardholmesphotography/16677498975/in/photostream/


Title: Re: Farewell East Coast. Hello Virgin Trains East Coast.
Post by: Cynthia on March 01, 2015, 08:36:48
I was reading only yesterday about East Coast Main Line TOC having earned certification to become one of the 'Top Employers UK 2015'.  (All excel in terms of employee benefits, training and development, career development and culture management).  Interestingly, Virgin is NOT on the list.  I hope they don't exert a negative influence on East coast.  More information at www.top-employers.com

I don't understand why all the livery has to change to reflect Virgins 10% investment.  It seems to me like a company winning investment in the Dragons' Den having to rename their business 'Peter Jones' Sausage Machine' or whatever.   I hope Virgin is funding the new graphics. 


Title: Re: Farewell East Coast. Hello Virgin Trains East Coast.
Post by: grahame on March 01, 2015, 08:55:02
I was reading only yesterday about East Coast Main Line TOC having earned certification to become one of the 'Top Employers UK 2015'.  (All excel in terms of employee benefits, training and development, career development and culture management).  Interestingly, Virgin is NOT on the list.  I hope they don't exert a negative influence on East coast.  More information at www.top-employers.com

That's an interesting link, Cynthia.

"Top Employers" is something companies need to apply to join, and have costs to pay in order to be audited prior to membership being granted. And it's all very much employee related, with nothing at all about customers of the business - though in general the ethos of good staff relationships and good customer care can go hand in hand / pull in the same direction. I find it interesting that a TOC run by the taxpayer bought into membership of this organisation with what were (in essence) public funds.


Title: Re: Farewell East Coast. Hello Virgin Trains East Coast.
Post by: Cynthia on March 01, 2015, 09:21:15
Grahame, I don't see East Coast Trains applying for certification for this scheme as a problem, even if they are using public funds to apply.  Any company is only as good as the employees who run it, and as I'm sure any psychologist would agree, happy, contented, secure, well-catered for and properly trained staff with good promotion prospects will provide a better service and be more loyal to their employer.  This in turn costs the company less in terms of the amount of sick leave they have to fund, attracts even more motivated people to join the company, again, reducing costs through smaller staff turn-over.  I could go on....  ;)


Title: Re: Farewell East Coast. Hello Virgin Trains East Coast.
Post by: ellendune on March 01, 2015, 09:27:24
My understanding is that on this occasion DfT sold the operating company they owned to Stagecoach/Virgin.  So unlike other TOC transfers it is in legal terms the same company. So if they were certified before, then unless there is something in the T&Cs about change of ownership, I assume they still are - at least for the moment.


Title: Re: Farewell East Coast. Hello Virgin Trains East Coast.
Post by: chrisr_75 on March 01, 2015, 10:10:25

I don't understand why all the livery has to change to reflect Virgins 10% investment.  It seems to me like a company winning investment in the Dragons' Den having to rename their business 'Peter Jones' Sausage Machine' or whatever.   I hope Virgin is funding the new graphics. 

This is exactly how Branson does his business - minimum financial exposure to ensure maximum exposure for his brand. It's all about the brand. Most of the other Virgin branded businesses are joint ventures with a controlling share, by a small percentage margin, in Virgins favour.


Title: Re: Farewell East Coast. Hello Virgin Trains East Coast.
Post by: Super Guard on March 01, 2015, 10:20:26
As reported before, Virgin Trains itself is 51% Branson and 49% Stagecoach, making the true "Virgin" exposure of East Coast 5.1% overall.

The flip side being, there is a large percentage of his businesses outside of his control that could harm the whole Virgin image.


Title: Re: Farewell East Coast. Hello Virgin Trains East Coast.
Post by: Rhydgaled on March 01, 2015, 11:07:44
Some Class 91 locos have already got a temporary 'Virgin' vinyl:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/richardholmesphotography/16677498975/in/photostream/
Looks a bit odd with the red extending quite a way behind the logo but not in front of it, meaning the logo is off-centre on the red band (can't move the logo to the centre of the red because of the bodyside grills).


Title: Re: Farewell East Coast. Hello Virgin Trains East Coast.
Post by: Timmer on March 01, 2015, 16:22:15
Been a lot of unhappy East Coast customers, myself included, who were members of the excellent East Coast Rewards which has been replaced by Nectar.  >:( I'm a realist enough to know that a private company was never going to be as generous as DOR was, but going from spending ^255 got you a free std ticket anywhere on the East Coast eg: London-Inverness! TO ^2.50 off Advance Virgin East Coast tickets is quite a come down.

Not only this, where you earned reward points on ANY TOC's tickets bought on the East Coast site, you only get Nectar on Virgin East Coast tickets so I'm going back to using the FGW site to buy all non Virgin East Coast tickets in future.

East Coast weren't perfect but I shall miss them.


Title: Re: Farewell East Coast. Hello Virgin Trains East Coast.
Post by: thetrout on March 01, 2015, 16:57:56
All in all I am bitterly disappointed at the Governments decision to re-franchise... They claim to have learned lessons. But were hellbent and desperate to get it off the public books back to private sector.

Secretly I think the Government are rather red faced and embarrassed that DOR was a clear success. Eastcoast was far from perfect. But whenever I used their services the service I received from Start to Finish was exemplary.

I now have big concerns for the future for ICEC and ICWC. Both currently operated by Virgin... Where is the incentive for competition? Not to mention Megabus and Stagecoach' Scottish Coach Services...

So if you are boycotting Virgin for whatever reason... You become immediately screwed.



In my opinion, I have found Virgin Trains to be quite bullish and arrogant from a customer facing point of view. For example. Buy a First Class Ticket from Birmingham New Street - Stoke-on-Trent and try and use the First Class Lounge at Birmingham New Street... You'll be told that's a CrossCountry Journey and therefore not valid... Err... No... That ticket is not Train Operator Specific and is also valid via Crewe - using Virgin Trains ::)

Try and argue that point you'll get one of 5 probable responses:

1) But that route takes ages > And your point is?
2) That only applies if you're using that route sir > I am though > Of course you are > Oh don't worry, I know about the 51 minute wait at Crewe, I can use the First Class Lounge there too. Even get a London Midland Desiro out of the journey too :)
3) Good God, No-one goes that way > Well I am thetrout... I'm not no-one and I like trains :)
4) It's not valid sir so I cannot allow admission > Please look at this twitter conversation with Virgin Trains where I had this issue before and they confirmed it is valid for lounge entry. If still in disagreement please contact the Station Manager
5) That's correct sir. But you and I both know you are not going that way > Err... I know I'm taking a Virgin Pendolino Object to Crewe to wait 51 minutes for a London Midland Class 350... You can walk me to the train and see me off if you don't believe me

I have had all 5 of those conversations with VT staff at Birmingham New Street, Manchester Piccadilly, Stoke-on-Trent, Wolverhampton, Liverpool Lime Street and Crewe Lounges all with tickets that were valid on Virgin Trains services at some point or other. Quite ironically one of the tickets I was using for a full Virgin Trains journey and entry into the First Class Lounge without objection is priced and set by Northern Rail... ::) Who don't even have First Class on their trains :-X :-\ ;D

So at this point... I remain unconvinced that this new franchise will be of benefit to the ICECs principle users... But the idea of ordering a hot meal to your seat from a mobile app... Nice idea and something FGW could have thought of for their Travelling Chef ::)

Oh that's me being optimistic and not realistic... I'll believe it all when I see it :-X


Title: Re: Farewell East Coast. Hello Virgin Trains East Coast.
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on March 01, 2015, 17:40:56
Quote
Virgin Trains East Coast is now part of the Virgin family, alongside our sister company, over on the West Coast, Virgin Trains. The two will run as separate operations, but they^ll have the same Virgin sparkle.

Virgin Trains East Coast runs services to and from London King^s Cross (on the East Coast Main Line) to Leeds, York, Newcastle, Edinburgh and more. Virgin Trains goes to and from London Euston (along the West Coast Main Line). Easy huh?

Keep in mind that the normal ticket restrictions still apply. That means tickets identified as Virgin Trains East Coast are valid on Virgin Trains East Coast services on the East Coast Main Line only (so no cheeky hopping on Virgin Trains services and vice versa - nice try!). Please check before you buy and if needed, take a peep at our usual terms and conditions.

This is bona fide nuts. If you're going to distinguish between the two franchises, call one "Virgin Trains East Coast" and one "Virgin Trains West Coast". Not "Virgin Trains East Coast" and "Virgin Trains".

"Sorry, you say my ticket isn't valid? It says Virgin Trains Only."

"No, sir, despite the big red Virgin logo on the outside of this train, 'Virgin Trains Only' tickets are not valid on this train."


Title: Re: Farewell East Coast. Hello Virgin Trains East Coast.
Post by: thetrout on March 01, 2015, 17:51:01
(http://www.mcbroom.biz/Public/Icons/Third-party-facepalm.jpg)


Title: Re: Farewell East Coast. Hello Virgin Trains East Coast.
Post by: LiskeardRich on March 01, 2015, 18:35:05
As reported before, Virgin Trains itself is 51% Branson and 49% Stagecoach, making the true "Virgin" exposure of East Coast 5.1% overall.

The flip side being, there is a large percentage of his businesses outside of his control that could harm the whole Virgin image.

This is not correct. Virgin Trains- The company running the west coast is the 51:49 split you mention
Virgin Trains East Coast is a 10:90 split.
East and West are too separate companies, and the share of one has no link to the share ownership of the other.


Title: Re: Farewell East Coast. Hello Virgin Trains East Coast.
Post by: Brucey on March 01, 2015, 19:29:21
Since privatisation, I wonder how many millions of pounds has been spent on repainting trains every few years?  The concept of the ScotRail branding (same logo and colour scheme regardless of operator) is surely a much more cost effective way of thinking.


Title: Re: Farewell East Coast. Hello Virgin Trains East Coast.
Post by: Jason on March 02, 2015, 09:56:43
Been a lot of unhappy East Coast customers, myself included, who were members of the excellent East Coast Rewards which has been replaced by Nectar.

I'm a very regular user of East Coast services and am sitting on quite a pile of reward points at the moment.
I've yet to fully run through the options available to me prior to the September cut off date but it doesn't sound good from the above.
It remains to be seen what things are like on-board. I shall find out on Friday.
Trying to peruse bookings at the moment takes me straight to
http://tickets.eastcoast.co.uk/core/overload.gif (http://tickets.eastcoast.co.uk/core/overload.gif)


Title: Re: Farewell East Coast. Hello Virgin Trains East Coast.
Post by: ChrisB on March 02, 2015, 13:37:28
I now have big concerns for the future for ICEC and ICWC. Both currently operated by Virgin... Where is the incentive for competition? Not to mention Megabus and Stagecoach' Scottish Coach Services...

Competition Commission is now happy, having extracted guarantees for VTEC....I think you'll find these undertakings on the CC website, I assume


Title: Re: Farewell East Coast. Hello Virgin Trains East Coast.
Post by: Fourbee on March 02, 2015, 13:44:10
Just got an email saying the following points are about to expire next month:

(then blank)

The points in the account are nowhere near 2 years old (which I thought was the expiry date), but have converted them to Nectar points as I'm probably not going to use VT East Coast before the end of September anyway.


Title: Re: Farewell East Coast. Hello Virgin Trains East Coast.
Post by: JayMac on March 02, 2015, 19:44:06
The full new livery on the 1100 KGX-EDB today:
(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/VTECKGX_zpsawda50la.jpg)

...passing Retford:
(http://www.retfordtimes.co.uk/images/localworld/ugc-images/276330/Article/images/26105746/9577603-large.jpg)

...and a video of the service passing Peterborough:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNIHi4KvhKY

Looks okay but I still much prefer the original Class 91/225 set livery:
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7557/15139771534_40aa656fa3_z.jpg)


Title: Re: Farewell East Coast. Hello Virgin Trains East Coast.
Post by: grahame on March 02, 2015, 20:27:49
The full new livery on the 1100 KGX-ABD today:
(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/VTECKGX_zpsawda50la.jpg)

Silly question - electric to ABERDEEN ??


Title: Re: Farewell East Coast. Hello Virgin Trains East Coast.
Post by: JayMac on March 02, 2015, 20:54:17
Not a silly question, just a silly mix-up. Got my EDB and ABD confused.  :-[

The service was 1S13 1100 King's Cross -  Edinburgh.

I've amended my post.


Title: Re: Farewell East Coast. Hello Virgin Trains East Coast.
Post by: bobm on March 02, 2015, 20:56:22
This is bona fide nuts. If you're going to distinguish between the two franchises, call one "Virgin Trains East Coast" and one "Virgin Trains West Coast". Not "Virgin Trains East Coast" and "Virgin Trains".

Interestingly this evening the iTunes store has offered me an upgrade to the National Rail Enquiries app.

Two of the stated enhancements are
East Coast becomes Virgin Trains East Coast
Virgin Trains becomes Virgin Trains West Coast


Title: Re: Farewell East Coast. Hello Virgin Trains East Coast.
Post by: paul7575 on March 02, 2015, 21:05:41
This is bona fide nuts. If you're going to distinguish between the two franchises, call one "Virgin Trains East Coast" and one "Virgin Trains West Coast". Not "Virgin Trains East Coast" and "Virgin Trains".

Interestingly this evening the iTunes store has offered me an upgrade to the National Rail Enquiries app.

Two of the stated enhancements are
East Coast becomes Virgin Trains East Coast
Virgin Trains becomes Virgin Trains West Coast

The existing 'West Coast' Virgin site now refers to tickets being marked/routed 'Virgin Trains West Coast (VTWC)' - which I think is a very recent alteration.   This should avoid Richard Fairhurst's anticipated problem as existing tickets get used and new ones printed.

But you'd expect the TOC's public name to follow as well, surely?

Paul


Title: Re: Farewell East Coast. Hello Virgin Trains East Coast.
Post by: JayMac on March 02, 2015, 21:23:52
The only potential for confusion is, I think, at the stations both Virgin TOCs serve. That's Edinburgh, Haymarket, Motherwell and Glasgow Central.

There's also a very small risk of someone going to the wrong London Terminal with an operator specific Advance Purchase ticket which will have 'London Terminals' as the origin, but that's mitigated by the reservation coupon which has either 'Euston' or 'King's Cross' on it.

Standard Class walk-up tickets between London and Glasgow/Edinburgh and beyond are either routed 'Any Permitted' so valid with either VTWC or VTEC, or 'Via York' which is quite clear.

Caveat emptor I say.


Title: Re: Farewell East Coast. Hello Virgin Trains East Coast.
Post by: Surrey 455 on March 02, 2015, 23:01:35
I'm confused. I thought that new franchises now had a standard livery with just the operators logo attached ie Thameslink and possibly Abellio. Did I imagine reading / hearing about this?


Title: Re: Farewell East Coast. Hello Virgin Trains East Coast.
Post by: Rhydgaled on March 03, 2015, 09:11:33
I'm confused. I thought that new franchises now had a standard livery with just the operators logo attached ie Thameslink and possibly Abellio. Did I imagine reading / hearing about this?
ScotRail (one of Abellio's franchises, or will be, can't remember when First ScotRail ends) has a standard livery, but England & Wales haven't followed suit. Abellio Greater Anglia I think may have been told to adopt a simple livery however as it was a very short franchise.

The full new livery on the 1100 KGX-EDB today:
Looks okay but I still much prefer the original Class 91/225 set livery:
A class 91 in Swallow livery is VERY hard to beat. As for the new Virgin EC livery, while not as good as Swallow, the livery on the coaches is quite good (although there's too much red on the buffet car) but I don't like the loco and DVT livery at all.


Title: Re: Farewell East Coast. Hello Virgin Trains East Coast.
Post by: Jason on March 03, 2015, 09:42:14
I've yet to fully run through the options available to me prior to the September cut off date but it doesn't sound good from the above.

Having reviewed the options I can understand the disgruntlement. The new scheme is pants. The three options that I can see are:

1) Spend my reward points on 5 first class single tickets with enough change for 1000 nectar points (worth ^7.50 before the end of the month)
2) Convert my reward points to nectar points and thence to evouchers with a value just shy of ^100
3) Cash them in for a ^21.81 evoucher valid for any train company. Whoopee!



Title: Re: Farewell East Coast. Hello Virgin Trains East Coast.
Post by: grahame on March 03, 2015, 10:06:58
I've yet to fully run through the options available to me prior to the September cut off date but it doesn't sound good from the above.
Having reviewed the options I can understand the disgruntlement. The new scheme is pants. The three options that I can see are:

For those of us who rarely travel on the East Coast Main line, what was the comparative award available for the same number of 'point' under the old scheme?


Title: Re: Farewell East Coast. Hello Virgin Trains East Coast.
Post by: stuving on March 03, 2015, 12:31:56
Silly question - electric to ABERDEEN ??

You'd be surprised what's possible if you put your mind to it.

With the LNE main line closed on Saturdays in March, all the EC trains are going through Spalding on the GNGE. And that includes some that are electric-hauled! At least, that's what it says on Realtime Trains, so it must be true...


Title: Re: Farewell East Coast. Hello Virgin Trains East Coast.
Post by: Rhydgaled on March 03, 2015, 14:36:54
Silly question - electric to ABERDEEN ??

You'd be surprised what's possible if you put your mind to it.

With the LNE main line closed on Saturdays in March, all the EC trains are going through Spalding on the GNGE. And that includes some that are electric-hauled! At least, that's what it says on Realtime Trains, so it must be true...
You mean like this (not my picture)? (https://www.flickr.com/photos/68415577@N03/16683279411/) Who else thinks that is probably a better solution for Swansea-Paddington services than 5-car IEPs when the Severn Tunnel is shut... For Aberdeen though, a diesel loco that had TDM capability (so you could swap it for the 91 where the wires run out, rather than having to drag the 91 along with you and run-round to come back) would probably be better.


Title: Re: Farewell East Coast. Hello Virgin Trains East Coast.
Post by: TonyK on March 03, 2015, 17:39:20
How well I remember (on some trains from Bristol to Blackpool in the 1970s) having a change of engine at Birmingham or Preston, depending on the make-up of the journey.

Much of the argument about the hybrid IEPs seems to be focused on the need to have a diesel engine on an electric train, and the consequent weight loss. Looked at as an electric add-on to a diesel train, it doesn't seem so disadvantageous.



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