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All across the Great Western territory => The Wider Picture in the United Kingdom => Topic started by: ChrisB on March 10, 2015, 15:43:38



Title: First Group on the ECML
Post by: ChrisB on March 10, 2015, 15:43:38
Railway Gazette (http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/passenger/single-view/view/firstgroup-targets-air-passengers-with-london-edinburgh-open-access-proposal.html) reports thus

Quote
UK: FirstGroup has applied to the Office of Rail Regulation for track access rights which would enable it to launch an open access passenger service between London King^s Cross, Stevenage, Newcastle, Morpeth and Edinburgh from 2018.

The service of five return trains/day with journey times of 4 h to 4^ h would be designed specifically to encourage travellers to switch from air to rail. FirstGroup says two-thirds of journeys between London and Edinburgh are made by air, and because its proposal ^specifically targets segments of the market where the rail industry^s share of the market is currently less than 50%, our proposals are not primarily abstractive and will grow the overall rail market^.

Stevenage station is ^close to Luton and Stansted airports^, while Morpeth ^is close to Newcastle airport^, which would ^help potential air travellers consider rail as an option^.

FirstGroup said fares would be ^highly competitive with budget air carriers^, with free wi-fi and onboard catering in ^one high-quality class of travel on brand new, state-of-the-art rolling stock comparable to other trains being introduced on the route.^ These would be five-car electric trainsets operating at 200 km/h with ^performance characteristics that will as a minimum match^ the Class 800/801 rolling stock currently being built by Hitachi for use by franchised operator Virgin Trains East Coast.

FirstGroup^s track access application has been submitted by East Coast Trains Ltd, a new train operator which would operate under a new brand. ECTL would be a wholly-owned subsidiary of First Rail Holdings Ltd, which currently holds three passenger rail franchises and open access operator Hull Trains.

^These innovative plans will give customers travelling between London, the northeast of England and Edinburgh an attractive alternative to flying^, said FirstGroup CEO Tim O^Toole. ^We hope to entice passengers away from budget airlines through our low fares and high-quality trains. Open access operators can really add value and create passenger loyalty by serving niche markets. Our current company First Hull Trains remains an exceptional example of how passengers can benefit from this type of operation. We have put our compelling case to the ORR and we are looking forward to hearing the outcome of our application.^

A decision on the application for track access rights is expected within 12 months

At first I thought it was a good use for their (five?) owned HSTs after IEP....but it seems they're offering new build electrics - from where, I wonder?


Title: Re: FirstGroup targets airlines with London ^ Edinburgh open access proposal
Post by: a-driver on March 13, 2015, 06:45:56
Being an open access operator they could in theory buy their own trains, something a franchised operator can not do. The beauty of open access is there's no government interference or control. They're free to run the service how they please. 


Title: Re: FirstGroup targets airlines with London ^ Edinburgh open access proposal
Post by: ellendune on March 13, 2015, 07:33:07
They're free to run the service how they please. 
Provided they can get the paths


Title: Re: FirstGroup targets airlines with London ^ Edinburgh open access proposal
Post by: Network SouthEast on March 13, 2015, 08:12:14
First will soon be procuring new electronic trains for thier Hull Trains open access operation. So if successful in their Edinburgh to London application the trains required might be part of one larger order.

On the other hand, previous applications from London to Edinburgh have failed. I'm not sure what will be different about First's proposal.


Title: Re: FirstGroup targets airlines with London ^ Edinburgh open access proposal
Post by: Rhydgaled on March 13, 2015, 09:34:42
Being an open access operator they could in theory buy their own trains, something a franchised operator can not do.
Not true, I believe both types of operator are perfectly entitled to buy their own trains. In fact, Arriva Trains Wales once bought some mrk2 carriages (but then hardly ever used them, sadly, and they have since been sold on). However, neither have the long-term security needed to get a return from buying brand-new stock.

First will soon be procuring new electronic trains for thier Hull Trains open access operation. So if successful in their Edinburgh to London application the trains required might be part of one larger order.
One wonders why, with the DfT's narrow-mindedness meaning much of the IC225 fleet looks like being homeless, First haven't decided to lease some of them yet instead of procuring new trains.


Title: Re: FirstGroup targets airlines with London ^ Edinburgh open access proposal
Post by: a-driver on March 14, 2015, 12:41:42
Being an open access operator they could in theory buy their own trains, something a franchised operator can not do.
Not true, I believe both types of operator are perfectly entitled to buy their own trains. In fact, Arriva Trains Wales once bought some mrk2 carriages (but then hardly ever used them, sadly, and they have since been sold on). However, neither have the long-term security needed to get a return from buying brand-new stock.

First will soon be procuring new electronic trains for thier Hull Trains open access operation. So if successful in their Edinburgh to London application the trains required might be part of one larger order.
One wonders why, with the DfT's narrow-mindedness meaning much of the IC225 fleet looks like being homeless, First haven't decided to lease some of them yet instead of procuring new trains.

Arriva Trains Wales didn't buy those MkII's.  The parent company, DB Regio bought and they still own them, they're currently stored at Long Marston.  The MKII's were available for sale or scrap at the time.  Technicality I know!  But as you said, an operator couldn't get a return from investing in brand new stock due anyway due to the short length but.......
1.  If the franchisee buys new trains to replace its existing fleet it has obvious problems when the franchise ends or the company defaults.... and,
2.  If a franchise were able to buy new trains, under the name of the franchise, and then defaulted, the DfT would be saddled with the cost of these new trains
Remember as well, First landed themselves in hot water, when it purchased 8 HST sets direct from the leasing company after the DfT refused to let FGW lease them 

As for the IC225 sets.  Remove the Class 91 and DVTs and replace them with new build diesel engine power cars and put them to use on FGW to replace the current HSTs operating to the South West??


Title: Re: FirstGroup targets airlines with London ^ Edinburgh open access proposal
Post by: ellendune on March 14, 2015, 12:58:40
Remember as well, First landed themselves in hot water, when it purchased 8 HST sets direct from the leasing company after the DfT refused to let FGW lease them 
You mean DfT did not want FGW to increase capacity on the route, but FGW went ahead and did so anyway.  If so surely that knocks BNM's arguments into touch. 


Title: Re: FirstGroup targets airlines with London ^ Edinburgh open access proposal
Post by: ChrisB on March 14, 2015, 14:16:09
Yup, I reckon so. That's a definite example of Firstgroup/FGW directly investing in rolling stock


Title: Re: FirstGroup targets airlines with London ^ Edinburgh open access proposal
Post by: Rhydgaled on March 14, 2015, 16:42:51
Arriva Trains Wales didn't buy those MkII's.  The parent company, DB Regio bought and they still own them, they're currently stored at Long Marston.
That is very much not what I've been told over on RailUK Forum (http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=63126&page=19). The story was a Mr Bunker (Arriva Trains Wales MD at the time I believe) made the decision to buy the stock and got sacked for it. Apparently this Mr Bunker told a rail-user group meeting in Wrexham that the stock was "bought to relieve overcrowding on routes". I'm pretty sure at least some of the coaches in question have been sold on because I've seen photos of them being used in charter trains after Arriva Trains Wales withdrew them.


Title: Re: FirstGroup targets airlines with London ^ Edinburgh open access proposal
Post by: JayMac on March 14, 2015, 17:21:51
Remember as well, First landed themselves in hot water, when it purchased 8 HST sets direct from the leasing company after the DfT refused to let FGW lease them 
You mean DfT did not want FGW to increase capacity on the route, but FGW went ahead and did so anyway.  If so surely that knocks BNM's arguments into touch. 

Rolling stock, not infrastructure. And 12 power cars & 42 Mk3s - 6x 7 car sets at most (5x 8 with spares), not 8. And First Rail Holdings Ltd made the purchase, not FGW.

I'm also led to believe the off-lease purchase was to secure them as part of First Group's bid for the Intercity East Coast franchise starting May 2005, not to increase capacity on the Greater Western franchise. That allegedly made the DfT unhappy and may have been instrumental in First Group failing to win that franchise. It was just fortunate that they ended up with FGW.


Title: Re: FirstGroup targets airlines with London ^ Edinburgh open access proposal
Post by: a-driver on March 14, 2015, 18:34:11
Remember as well, First landed themselves in hot water, when it purchased 8 HST sets direct from the leasing company after the DfT refused to let FGW lease them 
You mean DfT did not want FGW to increase capacity on the route, but FGW went ahead and did so anyway.  If so surely that knocks BNM's arguments into touch. 

Rolling stock, not infrastructure. And 12 power cars & 42 Mk3s - 6x 7 car sets at most (5x 8 with spares), not 8. And First Rail Holdings Ltd made the purchase, not FGW.

I'm also led to believe the off-lease purchase was to secure them as part of First Group's bid for the Intercity East Coast franchise starting May 2005, not to increase capacity on the Greater Western franchise. That allegedly made the DfT unhappy and may have been instrumental in First Group failing to win that franchise. It was just fortunate that they ended up with FGW.

I wasn't 100% sure on the exact numbers.  Incidentally though,  First Rail Holdings Ltd has a registered address of 50 Eastbourne Terrace, Paddington, London, W2 6LG which has an obvious connection to FGW.  As I've said before, operators can't own train so this is how First Rail Holdings came about.
But who knows what First's intentions where with those extra HSTs though, they were bought in June 2004 (I think) and refurbished with MTU engines in 2006 which First would have paid for and by this time GNER had received an extension to their franchise.  It's a very risky business move to make a speculative purchase of all those vehicles for a franchise they might not win and secondly, spend millions on an unnecessary refurbishment (an MTU engine alone is ^350k a piece) when they could have simply disposed of the vehicles after failing to secure the East Coast


Title: Re: FirstGroup targets airlines with London ^ Edinburgh open access proposal
Post by: JayMac on March 14, 2015, 18:56:09
Also a strategic purchase to prevent others buying them.


Title: Re: FirstGroup targets airlines with London ^ Edinburgh open access proposal
Post by: a-driver on March 14, 2015, 19:55:26
But they were still available for lease, they weren't put up for sale at the time by the leasing company.  The DfT had earmarked those HSTs for another operator, can't remember who, but if the DfT intended them for the East Coast then buying them wouldn't have been the cleverest of moves!! Who knows, FGW could have been the fall back option


Title: Re: FirstGroup targets airlines with London ^ Edinburgh open access proposal
Post by: JayMac on March 14, 2015, 20:12:15
It was a long time ago and my memory is hazy. I do remember reading something about the deal in the railway press.

At the time of purchase First Group ran 5 TOCs and was bidding for 2 more. Greater Western was one of those up for renewal. Buying them specifically for FGW in October 2004 would also not have been the wisest of moves, as the franchise award wasn't to be announced until December 2005.

It's possible First Group were covering many bases and the FRH owned HSTs ending up with FGW was by accident rather than design.


Title: First Group on the ECML
Post by: old original on January 11, 2021, 09:42:06
Not sure if this has been posted elsewhere already, but it appears that First have created an new open access operator to run on the ECML from October
East Coast Trains Limited

https://www.firstgroupplc.com/about-firstgroup/uk-rail/eastcoast.aspx


Title: Re: First Group on the ECML
Post by: stuving on January 11, 2021, 09:56:37
Not sure if this has been posted elsewhere already, but it appears that First have created an new open access operator to run on the ECML from October
East Coast Trains Limited

https://www.firstgroupplc.com/about-firstgroup/uk-rail/eastcoast.aspx

Surely that's not new - ECTL dates from 2015, and was granted its track access agreement in 2016 for services starting "no earlier than the Subsidiary Change Date 2021".


Title: Re: First Group on the ECML
Post by: grahame on January 11, 2021, 10:07:00
Not sure if this has been posted elsewhere already, but it appears that First have created an new open access operator to run on the ECML from October
East Coast Trains Limited

https://www.firstgroupplc.com/about-firstgroup/uk-rail/eastcoast.aspx


Follows through from http://www.passenger.chat/15480 - though that's a very old thread so doesn't have current date stuff in it.  There may be more around, though not intersecting or bordering the GWR area, our coverage has been thin.  First group are already on the East Coast mainline - at least at Doncaster and south thereof - with Hull trains, and also they're the TOC running TransPennine Express which come on south of York and goes up to the North East.


Title: Re: First Group on the ECML
Post by: old original on January 11, 2021, 12:29:35
Obviously I didn't go back far enough!   Delete if required


Title: Re: First Group on the ECML
Post by: grahame on January 11, 2021, 12:33:52
Obviously I didn't go back far enough!   Delete if required

I have too long a memory of what's been written in the past, and an ability to write direct SQL queries that go through all the messages posted and help me find these things.  So I have an (unfair) advantage when searching.

Worth bringing up to date ... I will merge in due course!



Title: Re: First Group on the ECML
Post by: grahame on January 11, 2021, 12:56:23
Obviously I didn't go back far enough!   Delete if required

Worth bringing up to date ... I will merge in due course!

OK - moved and merged, and now high up in recentcy (if that's a word).

Quote
By 2021, FirstGroup will offer a new travel choice for passengers between London, north-east England and Scotland with great value fares and high-quality service.
- Five trains a day each way from London King?s Cross to Edinburgh, via Stevenage, Newcastle and Morpeth
- Average fares of less than GBP-25
- On-board catering and free wi-fi in one high-quality class of travel
- Over 1.5m additional seats every year on brand new, state-of-the-art trains
- Seats reservable online up to a few minutes before departure
- First service of the day from London arriving in Edinburgh by 10am, one hour earlier than is possible now.


Title: Re: First Group on the ECML
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 11, 2021, 13:05:43
Worth bringing up to date

The question is...will it still be happening at all, or delayed?


Title: Re: First Group on the ECML
Post by: stuving on January 11, 2021, 13:33:41
Worth bringing up to date

The question is...will it still be happening at all, or delayed?

Well, the new trains won't quite be ready for May - but obviously that's only a clue as to what might really happen. From Railway News (https://railway-news.com/hitachi-begins-manufacturing-east-coast-trains-order/):
Quote
Hitachi Begins Manufacturing East Coast Trains Order

Hitachi Rail has begun manufacturing the new intercity fleet for open access operator East Coast Trains (FirstGroup) at its Newton Aycliffe site.

The start of manufacturing of the fully electric trains heralds the beginning of a ?new phase of train building? at the company?s Newton Aycliffe factory. That?s because the new trains for East Coast Trains Ltd, which will begin running services on the Edinburgh-London line from October 2021, incorporate a more extensive manufacturing programme than previous orders. For example, for this order the workforce will build the new fleet from empty aluminium shells.

Responding to the impact of coronavirus, Hitachi Rail says it has been working hard to prepare the factory so that work on the East Coast Trains order can begin in a safe way.

The five 5-car Class 803 trains will carry passengers on the East Coast Main Line five times a day, calling at six stations, providing a sustainable alternative to flying for the capital connection. As an open access operator, East Coast Trains Ltd is also not subject to a franchise agreement and will run services competing with the current DfT-owned LNER operator (which runs Class 800 and Class 801 Hitachi Azumas).

Unlike the Azuma trains, the Class 803 fleet for East Coast Trains won?t be fitted with a diesel engine. To ensure they can continue running in the event of a power failure, they will be equipped with batteries instead.


Title: Re: First Group on the ECML
Post by: broadgage on January 11, 2021, 14:32:51
A battery rather than a diesel engine sounds a good idea for when the wires come down.
Hard seats and no buffet presumably.


Title: Re: First Group on the ECML
Post by: grahame on January 11, 2021, 14:46:34
A battery rather than a diesel engine sounds a good idea for when the wires come down.
Hard seats and no buffet presumably.

From https://www.firstgroupplc.com/news-and-media/latest-news/2019/21-03-19.aspx - as much as I could find on catering:

Quote
Under the plans, customers will benefit from an average fare of less than GBP-25, on-board catering and free Wi-Fi, all offered in one high-quality class of travel. FirstGroup already operates an open access service, the award-winning Hull Trains.

A year later ... https://www.firstgroupplc.com/news-and-media/latest-news/2020/23-04-20a.aspx there's less on the on board offering and more on going forward in spite of coronavirus.


Title: Re: First Group on the ECML
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 11, 2021, 14:48:29
A battery rather than a diesel engine sounds a good idea for when the wires come down.

Yes, indeed.  Exclusive use between London and Edinburgh with the majority of diversionary routes electrified makes that possible.  However, the one diversionary route that will presumably be off limits is from Doncaster to Peterborough via Lincoln?


Title: Re: First Group on the ECML
Post by: stuving on January 11, 2021, 14:56:12
A battery rather than a diesel engine sounds a good idea for when the wires come down.
Hard seats and no buffet presumably.

According to earlier reports, they were ordered with only standard class and with a microbuffet (like the Azumas).

As to seats, these trains were ordered in March 2019 and the RSSB review of how to specify seat comfort came out finally in August. But the work was underway in March, and I'm sure Hitachi knew all about it - and they ought to have been involved in doing it. So we'll have to wait and see - or feel - ischial tuberosities at the ready.


Title: Re: First Group on the ECML
Post by: Fourbee on January 11, 2021, 15:25:38
I wondered what that logo was doing on the bottom of the poster which tells you how to hold a handrail. Thought I'd missed out on LNER changing hands without me noticing!

https://uk.firstgroupcareers.com/company/ectl/home/
(only place I could find the logo)


Title: Re: First Group on the ECML
Post by: paul7575 on January 12, 2021, 13:47:55
Reports in Modern Railways a while back, (May 2019 edition), specifically stated that the 803 batteries were not there for traction.  So they?d not be able to recover themselves or divert off the wires. 

So I wonder what the actual capability will be?

Paul


Title: Re: First Group on the ECML
Post by: grahame on January 12, 2021, 14:05:19
Reports in Modern Railways a while back, (May 2019 edition), specifically stated that the 803 batteries were not there for traction.  So they'd not be able to recover themselves or divert off the wires. 

So I wonder what the actual capability will be?

Paul

The 801 are described as
Quote
Differing from the Class 800 units, which they were built alongside, the Class 801 units were designed as purely electric multiple units, but with one diesel engine fitted to a single coach of each unit for emergency use.

It sounds like the 803 won't have that emergency rescue capability unless the batteries are in addition to that single Diesel engine?



Title: Re: First Group on the ECML
Post by: paul7575 on January 12, 2021, 17:17:04
Reports in Modern Railways a while back, (May 2019 edition), specifically stated that the 803 batteries were not there for traction.  So they'd not be able to recover themselves or divert off the wires. 

So I wonder what the actual capability will be?

Paul

The 801 are described as
Quote
Differing from the Class 800 units, which they were built alongside, the Class 801 units were designed as purely electric multiple units, but with one diesel engine fitted to a single coach of each unit for emergency use.

It sounds like the 803 won't have that emergency rescue capability unless the batteries are in addition to that single Diesel engine?


AIUI from discussions elsewhere, and the quote in post 21 above, there?s no diesel at all on the 803 Grahame; the debate is really only about the capability/purpose of the battery.


Title: Re: First Group on the ECML
Post by: stuving on January 12, 2021, 18:24:42
Remember that the single generator unit (GU) on an 801 was there because of the requirement for hotel power to continue without a main electricity supply. The ability to move about a bit was secondary.

The electrical system components of an 800/801 are (AIUI) a pantograph/transformer/converter producing 3000 VDC, and a diesel engine/alternator/converter (GU) also producing 3000 VDC, as sources, and then the drive/converter feeding four motors, and an auxiliary power supply (APS) including battery charging, fed off the 3000 VDC. So adding one GU to an electric 800 covers the off-mains requirement without designing any new bits, and the capability of using some of its power in the motors comes almost with no extra work - though not quite "only software".

If you want to design a battery to do the same thing it would have to feed and give back power at 3000 VDC. I'm sure that's quite possible, but whether you would do it would depend on what you started from, and beefing up the existing 110 V battery might be a lot easier. The APS supplies the heaver hotel loads at 400 V 3 phase, which will cover the lighter single-phase 230 V ones as well. So I can imagine that uprating that would be a much easier option.

Of course they are also working on batteries for storing traction power too, but the recent (last month!) announcement of this was of an experimental unit (for GWR), and the agreement with Hyperdrive (last July) was to develop batteries. So it doesn't sound like they have one sitting on a shelf suitable for a production order.


Title: Re: First Group on the ECML
Post by: TonyK on January 12, 2021, 19:57:54
Of course they are also working on batteries for storing traction power too, but the recent (last month!) announcement of this was of an experimental unit (for GWR), and the agreement with Hyperdrive (last July) was to develop batteries. So it doesn't sound like they have one sitting on a shelf suitable for a production order.

At the time of the recent announcement, I tried to picture what type of battery would be needed to get a fully laden IET moving away from a platform without some sort of meltdown. My inner cynic, seldom far from the surface, thought the idea was a bit of a publicity stunt to stop people asking when the first electric train would arrive in Penzance. Presumably, the general idea is to use the batteries to keep moving once the diesels have helped the train to its top speed. I wonder if it is worth GWR's while, although I suppose it might cost nothing to let a private company develop something that they may or may not use.


Title: Re: First Group on the ECML
Post by: stuving on January 12, 2021, 20:29:40
Of course they are also working on batteries for storing traction power too, but the recent (last month!) announcement of this was of an experimental unit (for GWR), and the agreement with Hyperdrive (last July) was to develop batteries. So it doesn't sound like they have one sitting on a shelf suitable for a production order.

At the time of the recent announcement, I tried to picture what type of battery would be needed to get a fully laden IET moving away from a platform without some sort of meltdown. My inner cynic, seldom far from the surface, thought the idea was a bit of a publicity stunt to stop people asking when the first electric train would arrive in Penzance. Presumably, the general idea is to use the batteries to keep moving once the diesels have helped the train to its top speed. I wonder if it is worth GWR's while, although I suppose it might cost nothing to let a private company develop something that they may or may not use.

There's another thread for that you know (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=23730.msg298698#msg298698)! But that initial trial train is a hybrid, so the battery has to be there to add extra power when the GUs are running flat out. That happens getting from mid-speed to fast quickly; the power needed at low speed is quite low. It has to be since it is (by definition, at the rail) equal to speed times force and the force (TE) is limited by adhesion to the same value (roughly) at all speeds.

But a supercapacitor would probably help!



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