Great Western Coffee Shop

Split off from a public board ... so we can share ideas that are being floated



John R - hadn't thought of that one.

Other ideas:

a) Run an extra service at 16:36 (previously discussed) and that may only get as far as MKM, but I think volumes are such we may be able to justify it

b) Allow customers to travel on 17:00 and 18:00 from Swindon and switch to 234 bus at Chippenham Station (met the MD of First Bus Bath Bristol last night / may be on the cards)

c) The daily set swap for the TransWilts occurs between the 18:21 arrival from Swindon and the 18:32 departure back.   When does the incoming train arrive (attached to what) and could its arrival be moved up so that it can double up on the 16:15 round trip from Westbury?

Another thought - FGW agrees to take on the Vivarail demonstrator (presumably at minimal cost as Vivarail need the trial to showcase their train). This is deployed on, say, the Looe branch releasing a 153 for the TW service. This could bridge the gap from May 16 to May 17 until other stock becomes available.

Put that D unit on a self contained diagram on the west country branches like you have suggested or perhaps on the severn beach branch

Until reliability is proven I'd keep it off anything that is heavily trafficked and where a failure could result in a lot of bad publicity.  So an out of peak season start on the Looe branch would be ideal.

Purely out of idle curiosity, where is Looe?  :P

Apologies if this has been discussed before elsewhere but would I be correct in assuming the 16:24 from Cheltenham then forms the 17:54 back?

Correct

Still thinking about how more stock could be allocated to the route...

On Friday the 0509 Plymouth to Paddington was replaced by a Cl 150 from Exeter to Bristol. Not for the first time either.  So my question is, is this a spare unit sitting at Exeter, or did its journey up to Bristol result in cancellations and short formations elsewhere in Devon?

Overall, how much spare stock is sitting around in the peak? Appreciate that some is needed as contingency, but is there a location where the spare stock is so infrequently called upon that it would be better employed actually providing a service and accepting the occasional cancellation or short formation.

RealTime Trains shows it ran as a HST from Exeter.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C20015/2015/05/01/advanced

I can assure you it wasn't.  The set swap at Bristol did confuse the Passenger Information Systems though, as the onward service from BRI was announced as "formed of two coaches, first class is at the front of the train"...

Interesting to see that trial use of the Vivarail D train is being very seriously considered as part of the new franchise. 

Updating this topic ...

The 16:24 arrival at Swindon platform 2 does go back to Cheltenham Spa at 17:54
The 16:33 arrival at Westbury platform 2 waits there until 17:11 when it leaves for Warminster.

We have looked long at hard at ways of getting the train from Swindon at 16:24 to Westbury for 17:11, and the train at Westbury at 16:33 to Swindon for 17:54.    All very tight indeed - in fact it gets ruled out by the inability to leave Swindon until 16:36 (unless you delay the 15:30 London to Bristol train) and it wouldn't then get to Westbury for 17:11.   That 17:11 looks at first glance like a right 'lemon' of a train - Dilton Marsh and Warminster only, 10 minutes after a Portsmouth train that also calls at Warminster.   However, it's needed both to meet the SLC for Dilton Marsh and (this is why we're not messing) to form the 17:28 from Warminster which takes a significant number of daily passengers from there.

However, TransWilts volumes are now such that the previous idea of running a train as far as Melksham and back begin to look sensible on balance.   Previously, we feared that would abstract passengers from the previous and next trains (15:12 and 17:36) so be an extra cost to offset against the gain.   But now, with the 15:12 and 17:36 both full and standing, that abstraction would be welcome as it would give more passenger capacity on those other two trains - as well as encouraging new traffic.  Works out well as a 16:48 from Swindon, 17:14 to 17:20 at Melksham. And helps provide a commute into Melksham option too.  That latter not ideal (yet) as morning arrivals from Swindon have a big gap - but it would suite some.

Here's where we could be headed ...

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/servicedevelopementplan.jpg)

Did I mention ...
The 16:15 arrival at Salisbury platform 6 from Romsey, returning there at 16:56
The 17:15 arrival at Salisbury platform 6 from Romsey, returning there at 17:56

If anyone can see how use can be made of these (total) 210 layover minutes - that's 3.5 hours downtime - in Wiltshire between 4 and 6 p.m., please let me know.  It's very frustrating to see trains sitting around when people want to be travelling!

Thanks for this post grahame and for adding me to this forum and board.

While a 16:48 departure from Swindon would be great, only going as far as Melksham would make it redundant for many people who would depart it at Trowbridge and Westbury (including myself who lives in Warminster).  A large percentage of those people that catch the 17:36 from Swindon travel all the way through to Trowbridge and Westbury, as you know.  A lot of these users would also wish for and benefit from an earlier train than the 17:36.  Is there anyway that the timing of the 17:36 can be brought forward earlier, rather than putting in an additional train at 16:48, as the 18:48 follows closely after the 17:36 in comparison to other time gaps.

Very much aware that the 16:48 wouldn't work directly for passengers south of Melksham - that's why it was ruled out in that form until now.   But as there are up to 40 passengers getting off the 17:36 at Melksham, and 20+ off the 15:12, it would offer some relief from overcrowding and at least allow Trowbridge and beyond passengers a bit of space on the 17:36.

Pulling the 17:36 earlier would have to be to 17:19 so it could get out of the way of the 17:30 Bristol Express after Chippenham.  But that would cut the area that 5 O'Clock finishers could get to the station is Swindon to just 28% of what t is at present and I suspect we would have some very very upset customers (or ex customers!).


That's a simplistic calculation ... and I would be willing to have my calculation / hypothesis disproved, but I don't think the solution of grabbing a quarter of an hour there would compensate [many] others having to wait a further hour.

The "real" solution comes when services start running through ... the 17:28 from Warminster being fed up from Salisbury (and probably becoming 17:35 from Warminster) then the 17:11 off Westbury could run that bit later (say 17:26) and form the 17:56 onward to Romsey from Salisbury.   That would be fed off the 16:48 from Swindon.  Various cross-franchise issues involved though. And the 16:33 arrival at Westbury would go up to Swindon to form the 17:54 from there to Cheltenham Spa. The issue that leaves you with is the 17:35 from Warminster gets tight for timing as it's supposed to be part of a near-clockface service up to Worcester.  Another consideration in that mix is the freight path through Melksham at 16:53 which could (along with the 16:48 from Swindon) make it impossible to find a path for the new Westbury to Swindon service.

That timetable would be a major step forward with the current resources.  I notice the 0849 hasn't been brought forward to 0836 though.  Is that still in the "too difficult" box?

Frankly, I think we've let that slip slightly off the top "issues" list. Still there, but no update / news at our latest meeting which was looking at the building issue of getting people home.

Many thanks for the explanation, most helpful and understood.

The real benefit for me would be trains from Swindon, via Melksham, continuing via Warminster and not starting/terminating at Westbury. As I currently catch the 07:04 from Westbury and the 17:36 from Swindon. The changeovers at Westbury to get from and to Warminster are quite long for these trains resulting in my driving to Westbury and paying parking which add to my commute. Hopefully this will change soon?

1. Funnily enough ... Warminster has cropped up in a couple of "improvement" requests of late.

2. After Melksham , Warminster is the least used town station in terms of passenger journeys per head of population

3. The 15:14 off Swindon was one of our poor performers in 2014.  By 2016 we had asked for (and been granted) a change  to 15:12, meaning faster journey that connect at Westbury, and the train is now full and standing some days for Chippenham

4. Until there is some extra capacity on the 17:36, or some relief capacity that abstracts traffic from it, there is little point in encouraging more traffic onto it.

Fertile scope for positive suggestion ...

Looking at Warminster commutes specifically

The Warminster to Chippenham / Swindon commute via the TransWilts / Monday to Friday

Current state of play

Trains leave WESTBURY at 07:04, 07:33 and 09:48, arriving at Swindon at 07:48, 08:19 and 10:34. Connecting trains leave from Warminster at 06:24, 07:00 and 09:25.  Journey times 84, 79 and 69 minutes.

Return trains from Swindon at 15:12, 17:36 and 19:48, arriving at Westbury at 15:57, 18:21 and 19:31. Connecting trains arrive at Warminster at 16:10, 19:12 and (through train) 19:49.  Journey times 58, 96 and 61 minutes.

Alternative trains available via Bath Spa at higher price and longer travelling time with what can be a more difficult change. However, there are more connection options which often makes the journey quicker.   

With good connections at Westbury, the journey can be completed in an hour from leaving Warminster to arriving in Swindon. Best current achievement is 58 minutes from Swindon (the 15:12) or 59 minutes (the 12:47) and 11:32 and 12:01 from Warminster, both taking 64 minutes to Swindon.

Day return fares. Warminster to Swindon via Melksham - £10.30 (peak), £7.40 (off peak). Any route £18.90 (peak), £15.10 (off peak). One week season - £40.90 (via Melksham), £74.90 (any route).

Potentially practical options to improve, short term

1. The 07:04 from Westbury to Swindon is actually the same train that calls at Warminster at 06:24 ... just that it divides as Westbury and the Swindon section doesn't carry on until 30 minutes later.  This could be split into 2 trains, at 06:02 and 06:30 from Salisbury, calling at Warminster at 06:24 and 06:50, the second train carrying on to Swindon. The first train is required to get stock back to Westbury to provide a connection onwards there (06:33 to 06:38 change) via Bath Spa to Bristol and beyond.  Issues (a) Extra crew cost and potentially line access charges (does a 4 car train cost as much as 2 x 2 car trains in NR fees?) and (b) this is in effect an empty train move at present, bringing the stock from the unit that GWR lease from SWT into play for the day ... there is not intended as a long term solution to GWR stock issues and SWT / LSWR want the train back.

2. There is a Warminster starter at 07:23 which arrives at Westbury at 07:32 - a cross platform dash to the 07:33 is usually possible giving a journey time to Swindon of 56 minutes.  However, this is not a guaranteed connection and passengers will arrive in Swindon at 09:04 via Bath, perhaps at an exceed fare depending on their ticket, at 09:04.  If the 07:23 from Warminster carried on to Swindon, and the Bath and Bristol train started at Westbury (at 07:38 as it does at present), full connections would be maintained.  Just while it's one carriage, this would also incur lower access charges for GWR, but it would have negative customer response from Warminster and Dilton Marsh to Bath and beyond passengers who would be required to change at Westbury or Trowbridge.   Alternative is to add a "connection exception" to the timetable saying that the 07:33 may be delayed by up to "x" minutes.  Another alternative is to run the 07:23 from Warminster at 07:19.  Realistically the 07:33 cannot start back at Warminster even though it's the first run on that train of the day, as the headway heading from Westbury to Warminster, and from Warminster back to Westbury, precludes it in sensible times and it will get in the way of things line the 07:01 Westbury to Southampton

3. The 17:36 from Swindon arrives into Westbury at 18:21 and sets off back to Swindon at 18:32.  At first glance, no opportunity to continue to Frome or Warminster.  However,for some time this was the point in the day where the unit was "swapped", with the 18:32 being a new train that had been dropped off a peak train from Bristol, and the incoming train heading back there for servicing somewhat later.   Apart from crew issues (the driver and conductor making a dash between trains!) the service could usefully extend to Warminster, arriving there in less than an hour from Swindon.

Starting the 07:33 from Westbury back at Warminster, and extending the 17:36 to Warminster, would bring potential additional passengers to rail; calling these trains at Dilton Marsh would give that station a logical commuter return to Chippenham and Swindon too. However, as they stand with both trains currently being just a single carriage, could they cope?  They REALLY need to be two carriages.

Potentially practical options to improve, medium and long term

The TransWilts service is heading towards a combination of the Swindon to Westbury service with local services south thereof - and that means a service every hour, in about an hour, from Warminster to Swindon in addition to the hourly service to Bath and Bristol.  Properly arranged, connections off the Swindon train at Westbury would offer 2 trains an hour to Bath and Bristol, and two trains an hour to Southampton, one of which will serve the airport too.