Great Western Coffee Shop

Apologies if this is posted in the wrong section / forum but it was asked by my six year old who is really enjoying looking at, and travelling on, trains. He then asked a supplementary question.....why is it only overground trains that are painted that way, and yet underground ones aren't? Never fails to amaze me how young children spot things like this as I'd never noticed it.

No problem at all in your posting such a question here, gpn01 - indeed, I can't see where else on the Coffee Shop forum it could have been posed!  ;D

Having posted that - I have absolutely no idea as to the answer, but I'm sure our members will be able to provide us with more information.  ;)

The answer can be found in section B4 of this document: http://www.rgsonline.co.uk/Railway_Group_Standards/Rolling%20Stock/Railway%20Group%20Standards/GMRT2483%20Iss%201.pdf

Railway Group Standards do not apply to LU or other Metros/Tram Lines so they have their own rules.

Brilliant! Where else can you get such a clear answer, to an odd question, but on this forum :-)

Many thanks
Gary

low-level tubes travel in their own tunnel & generally can't be seen by oncoming trains - but that doesn't explain it totally as the sub-surface lines do run side-by-side....

I assume that the yellow fronts are the reasons that the trackside workers wear hivis orange as opposed to hivis yellow which is a more common hivis colour away from the railway.

It does seem odd that TfL trains don't have to meet the same standards (you'd think people could agree as to what's safe), but then there are other anomolies:

Why do main-line steam locos require nothing better than "a lit portable head-lamp"  (which implies that an old oil lamp will suffice)?

Why not insist that the last carriage of heritage stock carry a yellow panel (after all the risk of breakdown is, with the best will in the world, higher with old kit)?

As there's a time element to how long ahead a train must be visible in the standards, it follows that higher speed trains need to be visible at a greater distance ... so heritage railways train (25 m.p.h) don't need to be seen so far / be so bright, nor do undergrounds (60 m.p.h).  Main line steam at 75 m.p.h needs to be more visible, and then all the overground / National Rail stuff much of which runs at higher speed.

One of the reasons for the visibiity must be for unguarded foot crossings, of which there remain significant numbers on the National Rai network.  I don't know of any of these on the underground - but at most a handful.

Final note - some pictures of what steam trains would look like if the visibilty extended to main line steam:

http://www.fictitiousliveries.co.uk/photo.php?S4566_fGW.jpg

http://www.fictitiousliveries.co.uk/photo.php?S_WC_SWT.jpg

because the yellow panels are not there to stop trains hitting each other.  The signalling system is there to do that.   The yellow panels are to make the train more visible to crossing users, trackside worker and anyone else legally or illegally on the track.  Those people are in danger from a train coming towards them.  The risk from the last carriage of a train heading away from them must be lower. 

The answer to the original question "Why are trains yellow at front and back?" is that they are not.  They are only yellow on the front.  But an HST or MU or a loco have in effect two (potential) fronts because they can change direction.

A discussion a few years back suggested that from a quite early stage, the forerunners of LU decided that they would not routinely work on the tracks when trains were running,  and wouldn't need the high visibility requirements achieved with a yellow panel.  

(Note the requirement is only for a specific area of about 1 sq m in the group standard - most of the excess area of yellow paint on typical EMUs etc is applied solely for the purposes of the livery designer.)

The odd overlaps of LU and NR operations are generally subject to special working instructions, and are relatively low speed anyway; but AIUI the LU rolling stock still has a formal letter of dispensation against group standards for those areas.

However, there has been an RSSB consultation last December/January on proposals to remove the requirement for a yellow panel as long as the latest high intensity running lights are fitted:  http://consultation.rssb.co.uk/consultation/ConsultationDetail.aspx?ConsultationPackID=481

Don't know what the decision was, but the idea is to remove the requirement from Dec 2015 if agreed.

Paul

I didn't know that.  very interesting.

It strikes me as foolish to remove the yellow end standard even if headlights are now better simply because there is no extra cost in painting them yellow as opposed to any other colour.  I'm all for removing a safety requirement where the need for it has diminished if it imposes a cost on the railway or society at large in money, time or hassle, but I don't see that the requirement for yellow ends does that.   

You'd think so. But:


However I had misread the standard - as you say, there's no requirement for a yellow panel to the rear; as far as I can tell an old oil lamp will do for that.

A red lamp on the back is the last line of defence.  I imagine in the days of time interval working (and thankfully lower speeds) it was more important.

The red lamp on the last vehicle also serves to confirm that the train is complete and that part of the consist hasn't come uncoupled and is blocking the line.  With track circuits and axle counters the signalling system will "notice" lost vehicles, but as I understand it in areas with absolute block signalling, the (wo)man in the signal box is required to note that the complete train has passed and that is done by looking for the red lamp (for obvious reasons the red lamp should ONLY be on the last vehicle).  Only when that has been done can the "train out of section" code be sent to the other box.  How necessary this check is in the modern era is unclear to me because with continuous brakes if the train splits surely BOTH parts come to a stop and the front part never reaches the signal box?

Some observations. Yellow ends don't forget the Wasp stripes on 08's and other shunters. I suppose they make them more visable buzzing about a yard.

RE tail lamps:
Barnsley has or had a tail light camara from the Wakefield direction which is AB.
Worksop has or had 2 at junctions with AB areas where this point is several miles from the box and it is quite possible for the train not to pass Worksop Box. One is Woodend Jn (Sheffield and Worksop) on the Robinhood line and the other Dinnington Jn on that joint line (most constituent companies?) from Doncaster to the GC at Brancliffe Jn, from which a train can go either to Worksop or Mansfield.

Re headlights. Can someone explain why we don't just have three equal intensity white lights in a triangle as most of Europe does. It seem to me 3 white lights in triangle coming towards you at 125mph is not going to be mistaken for a car!

I have been told the reason the driver has swap the bighter light to the other side at night (can't remember which is which) is so they don't dazzle track workers. When I used to commute at around 07:30 in the morning depending on season and sunrise one train would have left bright the next right bright.

I was going to point out the same as eightf48544 - that the requirement for yellow fronts seems to be a British thing. As it's already specific to one rail network, it's not a big surprise it isn't required on LU. Incidentally, I think the triangle of headlights is also used on trams in some countries.

I thought it was just about redundancy - they must display one bright light at all times, so having 2 allows one to fail but for the train to remain in service? No bright headlight = train out of service as I recall.

One only has to look down a straight section of line to see that the current specification of headlight is so very much more visible than the yellow end so I can understand why a change has been mooted - I don't recall ever seeing any other train/locomotive in Europe painted with such a warning colour.

In terms of visibility for trackside workers, I think a system with greater interaction with the signalling system would be a much better way of warning of approaching trains than any visual detection - my experience of (agency) lookouts in the past has been rather varied, which is a bit alarming when you rely on these people for your safety!

In this part of the world, Droitwich also has cameras. Everything passes the box, but there's one on the southbound goods loop north of the box so that the signaller can see that they've received a whole train from the Kidderminster direction. And there's one just before the northbound platform, so that they can see the same from the Worcester direction - that way they can accept another train quickly.

If I was working on track and saw lights coming towards me I'd get out of the way regardless of weather I thought it was a train or a car.  In fact a car on the track would alarm me more.   

Yeah. I once flagged this up to a TM (thinking one of the lights was out/dimmer) he said its all for redundancy.

The choice of orange for railway hivi's is quit simple, orange cannot be confused for a yellow signal aspect.  Also in the early days when the choice was orange or a greenie-yellow the greenie-yellow can merge into the background vegetation colour (not so much a problem today as the colours are a lot more vivid).

Orange does standout more.  One quark was in the 1990's when the use of netlon fencing stated to be used the only colour available was orange there were concerns raise by drivers the sometimes thought the orange netlon were track workers so the decision was taken to use blue.  If you look along the track now where there are fenced worksite close to the running lines the fencing is blue.

Big yellow ends are not really required today because the train headlights are that much brighter and you see the light well before the body of the train even in bright sunlight.

The night headlight is actually angled towards the cess so that it reflects any speed signs located therein, the day headlight is supposed to be angled forward so that trackside lookouts can see them as you approach

I've seen class 450s at Farnham CSD stabled with marker and tail lights on at the same time. I wonder if that is some sort of indication to say this unit has been checked/cleaned etc?

And of course it is very much more symmetrically pleasing!  ;D

It's the Clapham depot way of saying the train has been prepped.