Great Western Coffee Shop

From the Independent - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/autistic-teen-removed-from-plane-by-uncomfortable-pilot-10239739.html

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I've shared this article as I think it's worthy of discussion and shows what some, like myself, with Autistic Spectrum Disorders can encounter. Anything from clear discrimination and sheer ignorance to some of the best and exemplary customer service transport providers can offer.

I am sure there is alot more to this story than meets the eye. So my comments are going to be based on the article at face value

A known factor of autism is that one cannot express or explain themselves. A read of some of my own posts on this very forum shows I struggle to explain things and it takes me a good 3 or 4 posts to finally get my point across in a way they're understood.

The parent offered to pay for the meal. But the onboard crew decided to refuse and it resorted to what the Pilot deemed as a threat... The parent saying the girl may scratch someone...

Now from the pictures it is clear the girl was sat in the Window Seat. So the only person who would have got scratched are her parents - who would know how to handle the situation and what to do.

My personal belief is the mother asked for the meal to prevent known behavior which would not occur once the girl had eaten. That is not a threat - It is purely an explanation of what will happen if action is not taken.

Let me put that into context. 5 Years ago I took a Ryanair Flight to Madrid. There was terrible turbulence and the seat belt signs were on for the whole the journey. Eventually I needed the toilet so I asked the Stewardess if I could use the toilets. With an hour left to fly, I made it undoubtedly clear that waiting till Madrid wasn't going to happen. She had a word with the Pilot and she came back to me and said and I quote:

"Toilets all yours, but you hurt or damage yourself or someone else, it's on you, caphice?"

Common sense prevailed on that one... I have no doubts that Ryanair have a soiling charge :-\

Ultimately I think landing the plane and announcing it as a passenger with behavior issues is the pilot being a bully. It's clear from the reports that passengers had no concern.

I actually think someone with a fear of flying is a greater risk of doing something stupid than the girl here. But as I said earlier, only one side of the story.

Hand on heart I say this, If I was travelling in the First Class cabin and for 1 moment thought this was going on... I would willingly forfeit my meal for them. As a hypothetical First Class passenger I would expect the cabin crew to honor that request as well.

Having seen a TM on East Midlands Trains refuse a parent/carer a bottle of water, (which she offered to pay for) as she couldn't leave her seat because of the high support needing child she was with. Whilst I was in the Buffet I asked for a complimentary bottle of water which was given without fuss. As I walked back to First Class I put the bottle of water on the table as I passed and just kept walking.

Some say it was wrong for me to do that. Some agree they would have done the same. I saw it as a good dead of the day, It was clear the lady was having issues with her supportee... So it just seemed the right thing to do :)

All in all I think this is indeed fear and misunderstanding with Autism. Common sense should have come into play here. I wonder how the airline would have reacted to a request to pay to upgrade to First Class.........

I'm not disagreeing with anything you say Mr Trout, and as someone who has a family member    with similar issues please believe me I understand and sympathise completely; but the one thing that leaps out at me from this story isn't the behaviour of the person with autism, it's not the attitude of the crew, it's not even the alleged bullying behaviour of the pilot.

It's the attitude of the parent.

If you're going to undertake a journey with someone who you know has behavioural issues of any description (and I include in this for example people who need insulin regularly, or have to eat regularly to maintain blood sugar levels otherwise they do a Dr David Banner on us,) then surely to goodness to take steps to be prepared for that journey if you care about that person? You buy food in advance, or take snacks along with you, or at the very least check in advance to see what's available.

If on the other hand someone were to use knowledge of someone's condition in an attempt to blag a first class upgrade then quite frankly that's despicable. Obviously I'm not saying that's what happened here, or even suggesting that's what might have happened, but my own person opinion should someone do that, is that it would be beneath contempt.

Completely agree with Phil. The parent is at fault here completely.

Seconded here. Agree 100% with Phil on this one!

Also to be borne in mind is the general paranoia associated with airline security - any threat to the safety of the flight while airborne will generally result in a diversion and an asap landing - appropriate assistance can be much more easily provided on the ground should a situation escalate in any way. A decision to divert is never taken lightly due to costs & disruption incurred, the captain clearly felt there was some risk to the aircraft, passengers or crew.

Also sounds to me like the captain was supplied with pretty poor and emotive information by the parent - a simple, non-confrontational statement along the lines of "autistic daughter may get disruptive if she doesn't eat, very sorry we didn't prepare for the flight properly, would you mind providing some food" may have ended up in a very different situation...

....perhaps we could avoid words like "fault" and instead sympathise and show compassion to a child with challenges and a family perhaps less fortunate than ourselves. There is more than a little gleeful self righteousness on display here.

"The only hot food available was for first class passengers, and the stewardess told Ms Beegle that she couldn^t make an exception ^ even if she were to pay for it" - how ridiculous, would anyone really have objected if the child had been given some food in these circumstances without the need for jobsworth behaviour?

The behaviour of the pilot, assuming he been given the full version of events and context seems ridiculous, unless of course the prospect of a 15 year old child in an inside seat "scratching" is really likely to imperil an aircraft? I somehow doubt that a British pilot would have taken the same action.

Wrong! All I can see is exasperation that yet again, a parent refuses to take full *responsibility* for herself & child, and not kitting themselves put correctly. Any airport, even small ones, have at least a coffee shop, where something suitable is available.

It's not "wrong", it's my opinion, and you have a different opinion, which I respect even if I don't agree with it.

Not sure about that - "gleeful self-righteousness" is not formed from opinion. It's either evident or its not. And it isn't

How was the parent supposed to carry hot food onto the plane?

The quoted article arises just from the original account of the mother. Searches show that other people on the plane describe the totality of the events somewhat differently as do later expanded versions from the mother. For example the rest of the family ate a meal before the flight but Juliette declined at that time to eat anything. Juliette actually did 'reach melting point' at least to some degree - including howling and scratching at her father in the adjacent seat, although she was calm after receiving the meal. How things actually were - or appeared to be might be different again.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. I would though just like to point out that at the end of the article, the parent is referred to as "Dr Beegle", so from my own personal point of view at least the family is certainly considerably more fortunate than my own.

I come from a very humble background - my father had extended periods of unemployment thanks to an industrial injury that robbed him of most of his fingers (this was long before the word "compensation" entered the dictionary), as a consequence of which my own education finished rather abruptly at 16 in order that I could get out there and help support the family.

Far from having attained a doctorate therefore, the nearest thing I have to a degree is a temperature!

Dr Beegle is the President of an organisation "dedicated to broadening and improving opportunities for people who live in the war zone of poverty" (http://www.combarriers.com/about).

Hmm ...  ::)

In that case:


... you'd perhaps have thought that such a highly-organized mother would have remembered that her own daughter hadn't eaten anything recently ...  ::)

Therefore, please politely respect other perfectly valid & reasonable opinions without dismissing them as "gleeful self righteousness". The phrase itself actually sounds to me like a rather good example of what it proclaims.

Alternatively, walk a mile in the shoes of someone with a child who has a disability. No matter how carefully one plans and prepares, just occasionally a random spanner is thrown in the works. Would you be saying the same about thinking ahead and taking responsibility when travelling with someone who has a physical disability that can manifest itself without warning - for example - epilepsy?

Mitigate as much as possible, but, if and when things go wrong, I think it's only reasonable that any service providers you happen to be in the care of at a given time should be defaulting to empathy, and be prepared to use common sense rather than falling back on 'not my problem' or 'company policy'. All I see from this particular story is a gross over-reaction by the airline staff to someone with a disability.

To quote Robert Burns: The best laid schemes o' Mice an' Men, Gang aft agley, An' lea'e us nought but grief an' pain, For promis'd joy!

Thinking rather more widely than this specific case, I find it rather curious that we can spend a fortune on providing disabled access toilets on trains etc., but can't get right a few simple issues that would greatly assist other disabled travellers.

Wouldn't you be chatting & explaining this situation, if you are correct, to both the gate staff & the crew on boarding?....

There's a danger that if you provide too much/everything, those responsible will stop thinking about their responsibilities - and as we have seen, this can be disadvantageous in the long run.

For example, I have a family member who is a type 1 diabetic (insulin dependent), who, despite good overall management of the condition, without fail always carries an emergency source of sugar, adequate supplies of insulin & blood testing materials and wears a medic alert bracelet in the event it does all go wrong when unaccompanied and a paramedic, first aider, police etc is trying to find out what is wrong. Belts & braces approach = much reduced likelihood of major dramas if things start to deviate from the norm.

In this case, the airline staff were considering the welfare of everyone on board above & beyond any individual requirements and must think about the worst case scenario, no matter how unlikely, of an uncontrolled situation developing whilst airborne when they have received 'threats' that someone could become violent. Put yourself in the captains shoes - 200+ people in your direct care, word comes from the cabin crew that someone is reaching 'meltdown' and may start to become violent to some degree or another - what would you do? Carry on blindly and accept whatever consequences arise (ultimately if the girl had lost it completely, she may have been restrained), or land and sort it out nice and safely, in a controlled situation on the ground?

Taking that further, if you know your child might well have a meltdown on board as you know (or should realise!) that your child hasn't eaten (did it *need* to be HOT food? - real question, I don't know & find it hard to believe if so), wouldn't you have second thoughts for the rest of the passengers that your child might put them in danger? Or would you *risk* it. Hmmmm

I don't think disabled people and their families expect or ask for "too much/everything", and few get the chance to overlook their often life defining "responsibilities", in fact most wish for nothing more than to be treated the same as anyone else, but a little compassion,  help and understanding doesn't go amiss when their (often unpredictable) conditions cause difficulties.

Not everything in life is black and white, there but for the grace of God etc?

It may well have needed to be hot food. This is someone with autism remember.

What I can't quite understand is the situation appeared to have been resolved. The Stewardess made a reasonable accommodation (like the UK, the US has disability discrimination laws that compel service providers to make reasonable adjustments) and provided the food. Then someone informed the pilot that there was a passenger on board with 'behavior issues'.

Now perhaps the mother was a little too demanding, but that shouldn't abrogate the airline's responsibility to not discriminate. Diverting and removing the mother and autistic daughter seems a gross over-reaction to me.

However, it is normally clearly stated on booking what catering is provided on board, so if it had to be hot food (and I completely understand why it might actually have to be) then why did the lady not book a first class ticket instead, to cover all eventualities rather than leaving it to chance?


Agreed. I think there must've been some miscommunication going on between parents, cabin crew & flight deck in this instance, but I do think the captain was acting in good faith based on information received - they really will not divert a flight on a whim and will also not leave the flight deck in such circumstances without very good reason, especially if there is a chance of injury. We also do not know the level of aggravation displayed by the mother, so it could well be the mothers/parents approach/attitude which ultimately saw them offloaded.

The story presented in the Independent appears to very much based around the reports of the parents, with the airline taking a step back (probably due to a now pending court case  ::)), so my suspicion is that there is perhaps more to this than immediately meets the eye.

The Americans with Disabilities Act does not apply to air travel except at airports. There is a different one called the Air Carrier Access Act. This makes no reference to food apart from an obligation to identify what it is, and open packaging. It does though say 'The carrier may refuse transportation if the individual with a disability would endanger the health or safety of other passengers'.

Dr Beegle escalated the situation which made a call to be made against this. The captain may have made this alone, or consulted with an ground-based medical advisor. Both though would only have the mother's description of the potential behaviour of Jennifer.

This was not a short flight. The family were returning from Orlando from a Disney holiday to Portland, with a connection in Houston. The leg in question was about 4.5 hours long; the previous leg 2.5 hours. On both legs snacks only are available for purchase (other routings would have provided the opportunity to purchase a meal). As more information emerges it seems that they were sold a sandwich initially on board but this did not help. Dr Beegle asked for this to be heated, but there were no facilities to do this.

Yes, people should bring their own 4G and a big battery pack, not rely on the train company providing WiFi and power sockets.  ;D

(sorry couldn't resist that!)

.....a portaloo may be a good idea too judging by several trains I've been on recently - it can double as a handy seat during times of delay/overcrowding too!

Whilst I agree that the parent is key here, I do have some sympathy for them.  The child is the parents responsibility, but it is not unreasonable for the parent to expect sympathy, understanding and reasonable flexibility from the crew (and other passengers).

The parent may have been completely at fault, but equally they might have been the best parent in the world.  Without being there I cannot tell.  In my experience these kind of cases ALWAYS have more facts than first meet the eye

I have a lot of respect for TheTrouts posts - and wonder what he would think about the contributions made since the original post.

So if you are reading this TT, please consider letting us know what you think

Sorry, I've been busy the last few days so haven't had the opportunity to come back to this till now.

I quoted The Independent as I didn't want to use the Daily Mail ::) article or the Fox News ones I found on the issue.

I've read a few news articles about this story and it seems the parent is partially at fault. But nevertheless I think the Pilot seriously overreacted in this case. Whether this was miscommunication or just an "Oh great I have a kid on my plane making threats I'm not in the mood for this..." probably influenced the flight crews decision.

When quoting the article I tried to be impartial and made clear that I was basing my original comments on face value of the information available at the time. Of course me having ASD would lead to me reading the article in poor taste...

Dr Beegle is quoted in some articles as saying that she had taken snacks / food with her for her daughter but these were refused. This leads me to speculate that her Daughter was severely distorted from her usual routine of a hot meal at a certain time. This could cause any person with ASD some serious anxiety and "freakout" issues. ASD sufferers DO NOT handle change in routine at all well.

Whether this was an oversight by the parent, or they were at the airport and the cafes/restaurants weren't serving hot food etc we don't know. The Hot Meal was offered to be paid for and I think had the airline staff have accepted that and been provided the meal then none of this would have happened.

From other articles it's suggested they've flown before and not had problems. So I think this is just one of those moments of when all involved got it seriously wrong. So I think a certain element of blame lies with all involved.

What I do know is that Special Assistance is provided at Airports and through my own experience it's either very good or atrocious... Cannot fault Ryanair when I've booked it with them, I've always received the special assistance. So I am also left wondering that maybe arrangements were made which failed to get to the right people.

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Now for my personal belief. I think the parent is right to highlight the issues of ignorance to Autism. I have ASD and Schizophrenia, IBD and Continence issues... Now I have never declared Schizophrenia to airline staff because I know for absolute fact that it would raise concerns the moment I got near the aircraft. Some airlines actually require safety to fly for certain mental health conditions. So I adopt the don't ask, don't tell policy.

With this in mind if I received poor treatment from Airline Staff because I had an episode and hadn't disclosed the correct information beforehand, I wouldn't exactly go running to the press about it. That being said, I would absolutely do so if the correct declarations were made, I was deemed fit to fly by my GP and had made notice to the airline of my requirements.

This leads me back to an EasyJet experience where I had given EasyJet 2 weeks notice that I required an Aisle seat so I could gain quick and easy access to the toilet. This was to be at the front or the back of the plane. This was accepted, confirmed possible and that they would "look forward to seeing me"

Arrive at the airport and made myself aware to the Special Assistance team who indeed already had the paperwork from my phonecall with EasyJet. When we actually came to get on the plane (I hate flying remember) I started to get a bit agitated as I would do. The Pilot decided that I must sit in the Window seat. The Special Assistance team and myself protested that I had been told I could have an Aisle seat. The Pilot to cut a long argument short basically said "My Aircraft, My Rules, don't like it, don't fly on it or suck it up and deal with it"

Needless to say this seriously got my back up so I said that I had given reasonable notice to my requirements as of 2 weeks prior and told it would be fine so why was it now a problem. Playing Devils advocate I think he wanted me in the Window Seat so that if there was an emergency I wasn't going to be getting in others' way... Very distasteful... But probably bang on with the truth :(

This then caused the Senior Cabin Stewardess to intervene, Pilot has spoken so please take your seat. This was a rough version of the conversation:

Me: "No, Aisle seat or I don't fly, those are the choices"
Pilot: "You'll delay the flight even more sir, so please take a seat" - He then goes into the Cockpit
Me: "Then I'll be getting off, I am NOT sitting in that Window Seat"
Stewardess: "So you're really going to delay more than 100 people whilst we offload your bags etc"
Me: "Yes, absolutely. I made more than reasonable notification which you are now refusing to honor, so their delay is not my problem. Like your pilot said, suck it up </smug tone>"

Exactly this same incident happened a year later on a Ryanair Flight... However the Pilot said I could have the Aisle Seat provided that noone was sat next to me. This caused upset with fellow passengers who wanted to sit together. But as reasonable notice was given he upheld my request, The Crew were in a rather difficult position as the Pilot wanted me to be able to fly in as less an anxious state as possible. But it was all sorted and everyone was happy and the flight went without incident.

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Having digressed slightly there. I am trying to explain (badly) that I think United Airlines overreacted to the whole incident. That is opinion that may change if it becomes clear at a later date that there was indeed much more to the story than there is now.

Everyone saying "Parent is at fault yada yada yada" doesn't really solve anything. Whilst I don't want to start a serious flame war. I often find these comments come from those who have little to no knowledge of care for someone with a Disability or blind ignorance to that disability. This is not always the case. But from my experience that is mostly true.

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Much like has been said here regarding persons' with disabilities. I would like to lead as reasonable and normal a life as I possibly can and integrate with society / he community. However I am aware of the significant disadvantages I have and I know what / where my limits are. People get irate with me for going to the toilet often. On a good day the number is higher than average, but tolerable. But do people honestly belief I want to be visiting toilets upwards of 20 - 30 times a day? Of course I don't! But sometimes I really don't have a choice. So comments like "You should have gone before we left" I find depressing. So I tend to respond "Well I did, that was 20 minutes ago, this is now" - some people really can't take the hint can they...? :-X

I have every sympathy for the teenager in this story. I recall my upbringing as a teenager and if any of that is a close resemblance to her, then I really do feel for her and hope she doesn't get tormented for this. I cannot condemn someone who reacted to a situation in a way they couldn't control... Throw me in a small room with many people and watch what happens!

Sadly, most with ASD are some of the nicest and most intelligent people out there. But often very misunderstood and dismissed as awkward/rude/annoying. :-X

I disagree - I think you are explaining extraordinarily well that United Airlines overreacted.

The pilot has full control of his plane, but as suggested, won't take emergency landings lightly....remember 911 folks. They're entitled to be jittery?