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From a London to Reading post - but may be a lesson in our area?


If a train takes over 20 minutes between stations, it's considered full when every seat is taken. But if it takes less than 20 minutes, standing is allowed up to a total of 40% of the seats.

Scenario 1.  A train takes 21 minutes from W to S.  It's 3 cars long, with a total of 230 seats, and runs 15 times each way per day - a little fewer on Sundays. So the route capacity (each way) is 230 * 15 * 360 * 6.5 = 8,000,000

Scenario 2. That same train makes a new intermediate stop (and station) at P. It takes 19 minutes from W to P then 6 minutes from P to S. The extra 12 minutes on its round trip can be taken from the 30 minutes it has to turn around at run end, giving it 18 minutes for that operation. So the route capacity (each way) on the section from W to S has increased to around 11,000,000.

There is a very heavy potential flow indeed from P to S, most of whom will change to other long distance services at S. As I understand it, by adding in the extra stop, we're already providing a lot of the extra capaity needed for that flow, and in addition we're allowing for more through passengers too, as the sections to the north of W and to the south of S already have more frequent stops than the 20 minute ones - the W to S section is technically a pinch point at the moment.

This suggestion looks almost absurd enough to post in "The Lighter Side" - and yet if the very act of stopping at P provides extra capacity without the need to add trains, it helps make the economic case for it much more attractive. We live in an odd world!

The Cardiff-Portsmouth service is inter-regional and is the primary fast service on the route. Thus I would hope that standing on the service is not an acceptable norm. Essentially, while the core trunk routes (eg. the WCML and ECML) have INTERCITY services as their primary fast services, the Cardiff-Portsmouth route have, understandably, not got this so the Cardiff-Portsmouth DMUs need to provide a certain level of comfort for long-distance passengers. Standing on a 166 (or even the current, more-appropriate (apart from lack of coaches), 158s) is not acceptable.

What's your definition of "fast" ;).   3 hours 24 minutes for 138 miles = 41 m.p.h.    By comparison, 1 hour 59 minutes Cardiff-Paddington for 150 miles = 76 m.p.h.  or 43 minutes Swindon - Westbury for 37 miles = 52 m.p.h.

Well I guess it was "fast" once with services running non-stop between Bath and Trowbridge missing Westbury before stopping at Warminster. Or running non-stop between Bath and Westbury. Going further back you had services running non stop between Bath and Salisbury and even between Bath and Southampton!

Finally, services didn't stop at Filton Abbey Wood between Bristol and Newport because it didn't exist with the old Filton station only having services during the peaks.

Well, in this case I'm working on the basis that, if there are multiple services on a route with different calling patterns then the one with fewest stops is the 'fast' service.

One of my frustrations with the Portsmouth to Cardiff route, is the section between Portsmouth and Southampton.  Often seen "full", even outside traditional peak periods, with long-distance passengers standing until Southampton.  This train is then followed by the next Southern or SWT service which can be fairly empty.

But given this is the fastest way to get between the two cities, passengers will choose the FGW service over the slower service, even though they would be more likely to gain a seat.  Maybe we need announcements like "this service is the fastest train to Southampton, has three carriages and is likely to be busy; another train arrives in fifteen minutes, which has eight carriages and should be less busy".  I know which one I'd choose.

Whilst one sample doesn't make a statistic, I've seen that tried - and fail - at Westbury - where a unit train to Weymouth (packed) was being followed by a near-empty Weymouth Wizzard.   My group help back; very few others did.

Interesting point you make about the Weymouth Wizard HST Graham. I think the reason for this is it arrives quite late into Weymouth. Even though it leaves half an hour later than the previous DMU service, it arrives into Weymouth nearly 50 minutes later which on a nice warm sunny day is less time on the beach if you are planning on getting the 1728 return service.

It's almost like the HST is there to help getting people home in the evening which is where there has been capacity problems in the past.

Maybe if the HST ran the earlier service going to Weymouth it would see more use?

There's a whole interesting separate story and yet another thread split about the Wizard.  There are single line issues there, and although it doesn't call at the request stops, it's painfully slow as it has to speed up and slow down for the stops it DOES make.   Swapping the two trains would, I fear, not leave a big enough gap between the two for the line / signalling to cope.

My experience agrees with Graham's.  An announcement may be a good idea, but most people, myself included, would rather take the full train that is there rather than the empty promised train.  People are inpatient and people distrust announcements.

Because they have learned from bitter experience.  :P ::) :o

I had exactly the same experience last year. I've also seen this in London - when leaving Norbiton after a game at AFC Wimbledon everyone piled onto the first train even though the next was minutes behind. The train lost time at every stop as everyone else tried to pile on, causing our train to be delayed and the following one to be delayed as well. If a logical approach was taken and people waited for the second quieter train, then if both could keep to time the second would have arrived before the first actually did.

But it seems people have a mentality of 'I must catch this train in case the next one doesn't turn up' at all costs. In fairness the Heart of Wessex line only has a frequent service in one direction only at certain times on summer Saturdays - the rest of the time waiting 2 hours is hardly desirable.

The HST stops at fewer stations so acceleration isn't the main issue. The bigger problem is it's timed for 40mph between Yeovil and Dorchester whereas DMUs can travel at full speed (60-75mph other than Yeovil-Yetminster which is 45mph for some reason). Curiously the speed signs don't have differentials for DMUs and other trains, apart from one just south of Maiden Newton which only applies for a very short distance. I did hope the engineering works earlier in the year would have upgraded the track, but it seems not.

A further example and rather more back on topic is on Sundays there are frequently only 2 trains an hour between Bath and Bristol with the Pompey-Cardiff 15 minutes ahead of the HST. On a number of Sunday afternoons between 3 and 5 over the last few years I've seen people left on the platform at Bath who couldn't fit on the train. Still, an 8 car HST arriving 10 minutes later which should be emptying out ahead of its final stop isn't the worst penalty for being left behind.

The worst overcrowding I've seen generally is between Cardiff and Bath - 3 carriages off-peak frequently isn't enough, but after Bath it usually quietens down.

It wouldn't take a railway scheduling genius to work out that trains leaving Temple Meads between 3pm and 5 pm are going to be busy.
I was on the 16.22 to Portsmouth Harbour  today. 3 carriages and lots of standing.
Bizarrely, because there were lots of seats with reservation tickets, a few seats were empty, whilst lots of people stood.
I sat myself down in one reserved from Filton Abbey Wood to Salisbury , which was vacant.  Seemed daft standing in the circumstances.

This reservation business comes as  a bit of a surprise to people like  me who mostly use SWT.

But, alas, it would take a magician to pull out more carriages that aren't (yet) available.   Cardiff - Portsmouth historic usage shows a correlation between capacity and passenger numbers, with a dip that's not reflected on other lines when trains dipped to just 2 carriages.  Plans are in place to increase capacity - first cascaded ex Thames Valley units to be in service in the Bristol area in about 2 months from today.   And that feels sufficiently close to believe that - at l-o-n-g last - 1 car trains can go up to 2, 2 to 3, etc ...


Reservations or the lack of them are done in different ways in different franchises ... which indicates to me that there's no clear "best practise" - no ideal solution.

The number of reservations that are never used is verging on scandulous.

It is about time that franchises that use them should charge a small fee, say £2-3 per reservation to encourage people to get the train they intended, or sit in the right seat.

It's more a function of the way people buy tickets online and get a reservation by default. So blame the system, not the people. Though I agree that a nominal charge would be effective at reducing the problem I suspect it is one of those issues, like charging for bikes on trains, that is deemed unacceptable to try and implement, even if logically there is at the very least an argument for it.