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Title: Channel 4 Dispatches: Are you paying too much? 1st June 8pm Post by: Oxman on June 01, 2015, 16:00:13 Just noticed this on Channel 4 tonight:
"Channel 4 Dispatches: Dispatches goes undercover to investigate ticket prices, overcrowding and compensation in the rail industry, and reveals what the rail companies don't tell passengers." Title: Re: Channel 4 Dispatches: Are you paying too much? 1st June 8pm Post by: BerkshireBugsy on June 01, 2015, 20:26:43 It makes interesting viewing - I'm not sure if they explained the limitations of split ticketing (or maybe my understanding is wrong )
Title: Re: Channel 4 Dispatches: Are you paying too much? 1st June 8pm Post by: grahame on June 01, 2015, 20:45:05 It makes interesting viewing - I'm not sure if they explained the limitations of split ticketing (or maybe my understanding is wrong ) I didn't see the explanation ... ;D ... nor a number of other things - some positive and some negative. But then who DO you cover such a topic in 30 minutes in a way that's clear, understandable and accurate? The system's overcomplex - so little surprise that a sensational program will blame someone of the silly rules, then blame someone for taking a pragmatic approach to overcoming the silly rules. I confess to having a lot more sympathy for the operators than I use to. Title: Re: Channel 4 Dispatches: Are you paying too much? 1st June 8pm Post by: NickB on June 01, 2015, 21:15:46 Fgw's Twitter team are being rather grumpy in their postings this evening. ;D
Title: Re: Channel 4 Dispatches: Are you paying too much? 1st June 8pm Post by: Timmer on June 01, 2015, 21:46:06 It makes interesting viewing - I'm not sure if they explained the limitations of split ticketing (or maybe my understanding is wrong ) They didn't, with the most important condition that the train you are on MUST call at the station where the split takes place.Once again it was another documentary with no 'smoking gun' just the usual things most have already seen or heard in the press or other rail related documentaries. Title: Re: Channel 4 Dispatches: Are you paying too much? 1st June 8pm Post by: tomL on June 01, 2015, 21:55:06 It seemed a bit too heavily stacked against FGW to me... 'Here is a bad ticket machine from Northern and Virgin East Coast. But back to FGW' I guess they just posted a job opening at the wrong time? ::)
And the usual 'me to you' between TOCs and DfT.. Title: Re: Channel 4 Dispatches: Are you paying too much? 1st June 8pm Post by: JayMac on June 01, 2015, 22:51:24 It makes interesting viewing - I'm not sure if they explained the limitations of split ticketing (or maybe my understanding is wrong ) They didn't, with the most important condition that the train you are on MUST call at the station where the split takes place.It's wise to say that caveat, although it's not strictly true. If both tickets are Zonal, or one of the combination of tickets is a Season Ticket or Leisure Travel Pass (Rover valid for at least 7 consecutive days or at least 3 days in a period of at least 7 days), then the train you're on does not have to call at the split point(s). For example: Off Peak Day Single Paddington to Aldermaston, plus Super Off Peak Single Aldermaston to Bruton, plus Freedom of Severn & Solent Rover 3 in 7, plus Off Peak Day Single Tiverton Parkway to Exeter SD, would allow you to use the 1006 from Paddington through to Exeter. This train runs non-stop from Reading to Exeter. Title: Re: Channel 4 Dispatches: Are you paying too much? 1st June 8pm Post by: Ollie on June 01, 2015, 23:06:15 Fgw's Twitter team are being rather grumpy in their postings this evening. ;D Not the intention, sorry if it's come across that way. Title: Re: Channel 4 Dispatches: Are you paying too much? 1st June 8pm Post by: JayMac on June 01, 2015, 23:57:14 The programme was, in my opinion, a fairly accurate representation of the way FGW is being run at the moment. Poorly trained staff, massaging of performance figures, poor communication during times of disruption, little short of contempt for the passengers.
There are pockets of excellence in the company, but they are few and far between. Title: Re: Channel 4 Dispatches: Are you paying too much? 1st June 8pm Post by: JayMac on June 02, 2015, 00:08:30 FGW's response to Channel 4's 'Dispatches':
Quote First Great Western responds to Dispatches investigation https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/dispatchesMonday 1st June 2015 In regards to the issues raised in the programme: The training of First Great Western staff in relation to ticket sales It is disappointing that the trainer initially got the answer wrong, but we are pleased he clarified the correct position later in the session. We would of course expect the correct advice to be given straight away and we will make sure that our trainers are clear about the correct position in the future. Offering and selling ^split tickets^ The conversations shown regarding split tickets accurately reflect the rules every train operator must follow in terms of offering and selling ^split tickets^ as outlined in the Retail Standards Guide, which all train operators must follow. We agree that these rules ^ and many other rules that have their roots in the British Rail era ^ need reviewing to make the ticket buying process simpler and clearer for customers. As part of the Rail Delivery Group, we are working with other train operators and Government on how to progress this further. Improper changes to journey times on the public timetable to help improve performance figures and limit the compensation paid for delays The suggestion that First Great Western improperly changes journey times to improve its performance figures and limit the compensation paid for delays is simply incorrect. In the journey example given, all but three of the trains on the route have exactly the same public journey time as in the working timetable. The longest difference in journey times is two minutes, and none of them have got longer. In regards to compensation, this is not based on achieving performance targets, but on trains delayed by 30 or 60 minutes. The additional one or two minute margins would therefore have a tiny impact on reducing compensation paid. Extending journey times beyond what is operationally required is poor customer service, costs us revenue, and would contravene the franchise agreement which is set and monitored by the Department for Transport. There is simply no other incentive for us to do this than to make sure we get customers to where they need to go at the time we have said they will arrive. The working timetable is publicly available, published on Network Rail^s website here. Difficulties in obtaining information from Control during disruption Providing accurate and timely information to staff and customers during periods of disruption is an issue the rail industry as a whole takes very seriously. We have issued colleagues with smartphones and tablets, as well as providing additional dedicated resource to help colleagues get accurate information to passengers quicker. We have also developed our own social media team which is able to update customers on a regular basis. Compensation claims and goodwill gestures We regularly advertise ways for customers to claim contractual compensation should things go wrong via our website, Twitter feed (@FGW) and other channels. On Twitter, we can even deal with contractual compensation claims immediately via a Direct Message without the need for customers to write in or call an additional number. When it is the right thing to do, we will also go beyond the contractually stipulated level of compensations, regardless of whether or not we receive a direct complaint from a customer at all. Any customer-focused business would do exactly the same and we are proud of it. Capacity on trains Despite the lack of availability of suitable additional trains in the UK, we have worked hard to secure the additional capacity we know our customers want to see. Working with the Department for Transport, we have created 7,500 additional standard class seats into and out of Paddington at peak times every day. We know however, that this is only a medium-term solution and, as part of the new franchise agreed with the Department for Transport, we will be introducing newer, longer trains across our network from spring next year, which will increase capacity by around 25%. This increased capacity is part of the ^7.5bn Great Western Mainline modernisation programme, the initial phases of which we are currently working closely with the Department for Transport and Network Rail to deliver. This investment is the biggest on the route since Brunel and will transform a key part of the country^s transport infrastructure. As part of this programme, new or refurbished trains will be seen on every part of the network, resulting in more frequent and faster journeys and an increase in the number of seats to keep people moving across the Great Western network. Disappointing to see that, yet again, FGW are giving the impression that they are making significant investment toward the Great Western modernisation programme. They may well be working closely with DfT and NR, but they aren't contributing to the capital projects. Title: Re: Channel 4 Dispatches: Are you paying too much? 1st June 8pm Post by: PhilWakely on June 02, 2015, 08:01:42 FGW's response to Channel 4's 'Dispatches': Quote First Great Western responds to Dispatches investigation Monday 1st June 2015 In regards to the issues raised in the programme: Improper changes to journey times on the public timetable to help improve performance figures and limit the compensation paid for delays The suggestion that First Great Western improperly changes journey times to improve its performance figures and limit the compensation paid for delays is simply incorrect. In the journey example given, all but three of the trains on the route have exactly the same public journey time as in the working timetable. The longest difference in journey times is two minutes, and none of them have got longer. In regards to compensation, this is not based on achieving performance targets, but on trains delayed by 30 or 60 minutes. The additional one or two minute margins would therefore have a tiny impact on reducing compensation paid. Extending journey times beyond what is operationally required is poor customer service, costs us revenue, and would contravene the franchise agreement which is set and monitored by the Department for Transport. There is simply no other incentive for us to do this than to make sure we get customers to where they need to go at the time we have said they will arrive. The working timetable is publicly available, published on Network Rail^s website here. During the Reading blockade over the Easter weekend, I remember looking at Realtimetrains for my train back from Waterloo to Exeter St Davids. I was amazed at the difference between the GBTT and WTT timings - departure from Waterloo was shown as 1659 on GBTT, yet WTT showed 1707 and we actually left at 1708. I remember mutterings around me by fellow pax about a very late departure; timings for EXD were somewhat easier, shown on GBTT as 2120(a) 2122(d), yet WTT shown as 2118(a) 2120(d). Despite arriving at 2125 (late on both timetables, some pax were heard to be very complimentary about 'making up time'! Title: Re: Channel 4 Dispatches: Are you paying too much? 1st June 8pm Post by: BerkshireBugsy on June 02, 2015, 08:33:02 A few points I picked up on - I do agree with Graham that after all it was only a 30 minute program so there was only a limited amount of content that could have been included.
1) Split tickets - as has already been said here the limitations of these we not mentioned. In a 30 minute program I wouldn't expect these limitations to be covered in detail but I think a statement along the lines of "there are conditions when split tickets are not valid" should have been added 2) FGW reaction to hostile passengers (filmed in the Paddington office if I remember rightly). The statement by the FGW employee was that sometimes people that are (I can't remember the words used) aggressive may not be "rewarded" in the same way as people who are polite when they complain. I'm not surprised! If I want to complain about something in the first instance I am polite and firm because otherwise there is no route of escalation of unhappiness levels left to me BUT in this scenario if I was facing delays day in day out I think it would be a challenge to remain calm. 3) Lack of information when things go wrong: We've covered this before on the forum and it is good to see FGW giving the staff the technology to help improve this even if it only puts them at the same level as customer with smart phones. I don't know what additional facilities staff have access to (above joe public) hopefully someone can comment here. 4) Overcrowding - I accept that FGW have taken steps to reduce overcrowding but at peak hours this is still a problem. My own preference if I am travelling on a congested route is to either travel earlier or to travel on a slower service. This is made easier by the fact that I don't have to commute to London on a daily basis. 5) Pictures of thatcham station: Maybe I spent too much time looking for shots of local stations (Newbury/Thatcham) of which there were quite a few! Title: Re: Channel 4 Dispatches: Are you paying too much? 1st June 8pm Post by: patch38 on June 02, 2015, 09:55:01 Quote It is disappointing that the trainer initially got the answer wrong, but we are pleased he clarified the correct position later in the session. No he didn't. Even though the undercover reporter asked some direct questions, all the trainer did was to confuse the situation by contradicting what he had said earlier. He was toe-curlingly poor at his job. I think the trainer needs some training... Title: Re: Channel 4 Dispatches: Are you paying too much? 1st June 8pm Post by: BerkshireBugsy on June 02, 2015, 10:02:36 Quote It is disappointing that the trainer initially got the answer wrong, but we are pleased he clarified the correct position later in the session. No he didn't. Even though the undercover reporter asked some direct questions, all the trainer did was to confuse the situation by contradicting what he had said earlier. He was toe-curlingly poor at his job. I think the trainer needs some training... When I first read this reply I agreed with it (having been a trainer myself) but do remember we only saw edited highlights of the training session. If a TM sells a split ticket on board a service does this mean they get less commission? Title: Re: Channel 4 Dispatches: Are you paying too much? 1st June 8pm Post by: patch38 on June 02, 2015, 10:09:50 When I first read this reply I agreed with it (having been a trainer myself) but do remember we only saw edited highlights of the training session. Yes, good point. The way it was presented to us made the trainer look poor. However I really wasn't impressed with his overall style but, unless we had been there, it's difficult to judge accurately. Title: Re: Channel 4 Dispatches: Are you paying too much? 1st June 8pm Post by: paul7575 on June 02, 2015, 10:23:09 During the Reading blockade over the Easter weekend, I remember looking at Realtimetrains for my train back from Waterloo to Exeter St Davids. I was amazed at the difference between the GBTT and WTT timings - departure from Waterloo was shown as 1659 on GBTT, yet WTT showed 1707 and we actually left at 1708. I got an explanation after the first diverts, that the different public and working times were artificially there to force booking engines to work properly. Something to do with not wanting people to be offered connections into or out of SWT services somewhere. I forget the details though. Paul Title: Re: Channel 4 Dispatches: Are you paying too much? 1st June 8pm Post by: ChrisB on June 02, 2015, 10:33:36 3)I don't know what additional facilities staff have access to (above joe public) hopefully someone can comment here. Yes, they can access some software not available to the public - I forget the acronym though (help me someone!). 'Realtime trains' for Pros, basically, plus messaging direct from control, I believe Title: Re: Channel 4 Dispatches: Are you paying too much? 1st June 8pm Post by: BerkshireBugsy on June 02, 2015, 10:37:18 3)I don't know what additional facilities staff have access to (above joe public) hopefully someone can comment here. Yes, they can access some software not available to the public - I forget the acronym though (help me someone!). 'Realtime trains' for Pros, basically, plus messaging direct from control, I believe Thanks ChrisB - I know that in the ticket offices they have access to a graphical representation of the relevant segments of track showing where services are at a given time because the local staff occasionally show me this when there are delays. Is this type of display (which I don't know the name of but looks like the track layout panel in a signal box) available on employee mobiles? Title: Re: Channel 4 Dispatches: Are you paying too much? 1st June 8pm Post by: grahame on June 02, 2015, 11:35:56 During the Reading blockade over the Easter weekend, I remember looking at Realtimetrains for my train back from Waterloo to Exeter St Davids. I was amazed at the difference between the GBTT and WTT timings - departure from Waterloo was shown as 1659 on GBTT, yet WTT showed 1707 and we actually left at 1708. I got an explanation after the first diverts, that the different public and working times were artificially there to force booking engines to work properly. Something to do with not wanting people to be offered connections into or out of SWT services somewhere. I forget the details though. Paul Sounds logical, Paul "They" want people to catch the :00 South West Trains if changing at (say) Basingstoke for Micheldever. But if the FGW train is shown at the WTT time (:07) the online table would offer that. So by scheduling at :59, the FGW train becomes a slower journey with an earlier departure. Can't help feeling that a system that truly models travel would be better that kludging the current system. This sounds like a similar excuse to the one we get for the TransWilts, where we would like advance tickets to be sold on the Cheltenham train with plenty of connection time, and same platform connection, at Swindon. But people get put onto the busier trains following the Cheltenham, with a tight connection that often misses as with a long walk at Swindon. Bit of an"own goal" by the rail industry! Title: Re: Channel 4 Dispatches: Are you paying too much? 1st June 8pm Post by: Louis94 on June 02, 2015, 11:48:18 During the Reading blockade over the Easter weekend, I remember looking at Realtimetrains for my train back from Waterloo to Exeter St Davids. I was amazed at the difference between the GBTT and WTT timings - departure from Waterloo was shown as 1659 on GBTT, yet WTT showed 1707 and we actually left at 1708. I got an explanation after the first diverts, that the different public and working times were artificially there to force booking engines to work properly. Something to do with not wanting people to be offered connections into or out of SWT services somewhere. I forget the details though. Paul Sounds logical, Paul "They" want people to catch the :00 South West Trains if changing at (say) Basingstoke for Micheldever. But if the FGW train is shown at the WTT time (:07) the online table would offer that. So by scheduling at :59, the FGW train becomes a slower journey with an earlier departure. There was not an issue of changing out of the FGW service at Basingstoke as it was pick up only. I believe the poster is referring to going to Basingstoke on the previous SWT at (xx:05) and getting onto the FGW train there (Which the booking engine would think the xx:05 has overtaken) - common misconception it seems, as what they did causes just that with the departure at xx:59. Was fixed this time around with the use of differentials at Basingstoke to ensure the minimum connection time was not met. Differentials at Waterloo were down to the nature of the trains path, train 2 minutes ahead and 2 minutes behind - was crucial the train left as soon as possible behind the xx:05. Title: Re: Channel 4 Dispatches: Are you paying too much? 1st June 8pm Post by: IndustryInsider on June 02, 2015, 11:48:50 Yes, they can access some software not available to the public - I forget the acronym though (help me someone!). 'Realtime trains' for Pros, basically, plus messaging direct from control, I believe Genius, Genius Mobile and TyrellCheck are all industry only software that is available to certain staff. There's also real-time mapping software (the acronym for which has slipped my mind) showing the location of trains in a similar way to that shown on the railcam.uk.site supporter site and opentraintimes.com site do, but in a little more detail and covering more of the FGW network (though both of those third party sites are catching up quickly). Drivers remain the only large group of staff that don't have access to all of those sites (they only have Genius Mobile if they have a personal smartphone) as there has been a delay in issuing them with tablets whilst discussions taking place about the general issue of tablets to them which the union are doing their best to scupper. Basically they want the drivers to receive a 'technology' payment in agreement to use them. Many drivers just want the technology ASAP to make their job easier and aren't worried about getting paid extra for using it! Title: Re: Channel 4 Dispatches: Are you paying too much? 1st June 8pm Post by: ChrisB on June 02, 2015, 11:53:25 Drivers to Union reps.....get your feelings known!
Title: Re: Channel 4 Dispatches: Are you paying too much? 1st June 8pm Post by: Adelante_CCT on June 02, 2015, 12:46:26 Quote Thanks ChrisB - I know that in the ticket offices they have access to a graphical representation of the relevant segments of track showing where services are at a given time because the local staff occasionally show me this when there are delays. They have one of those at the bottom of the escalators on platform 7 at Reading Title: Re: Channel 4 Dispatches: Are you paying too much? 1st June 8pm Post by: JayMac on June 02, 2015, 13:05:37 And one on the wall next to the Lost Property Office in the subway at Bristol Temple Meads.
Title: Re: Channel 4 Dispatches: Are you paying too much? 1st June 8pm Post by: Oxman on June 02, 2015, 14:28:55 Its called "P2" (well it was when I worked for FGW a few years ago!).
Title: Re: Channel 4 Dispatches: Are you paying too much? 1st June 8pm Post by: Ollie on June 02, 2015, 16:05:37 Stations would have P2. Control in Swindon have P2, but also CCF which is much better in my opinion.
Some stations also have screens dotted around which uses part of the Genius Mobile site (Tornado Mobile) - Tornado Mobile is mobile friendly too and doesn't have to just be on a desktop. Title: Re: Channel 4 Dispatches: Are you paying too much? 1st June 8pm Post by: paul7575 on June 02, 2015, 17:21:45 [Different times for Waterloo departures]
In fact now I think about it the time I heard this stuff about tweaking the times to avoid journey planner issues was when they were running via Staines and Virginia Water etc, so they'd have been vastly different timings to the latest ones anyway... Paul Title: Re: Channel 4 Dispatches: Are you paying too much? 1st June 8pm Post by: thetrout on June 02, 2015, 18:06:43 This is possibly why I can't get a job in the railway industry...
I would have taken the trainer to task as it was a clear contradiction. I don't agree that he corrected himself at all. He seemed to just add confusion and complication to the task at hand. Whilst we were only shown snippets and sections of footage. The reporter should have asked him to clarify his earlier specific example when he tried to rectify himself. This reminds me of when FGW were picking and choosing the rules to suit them when 2 contradicting "rules" collided and they took the option which was more beneficial to them than the passenger. However I think the example of the return vs single example of Reading - Paddington he listed was a rather damming admission and I find myself asking why such an issue exists. ^2 extra per day could easily be ^40 a month which in turn is ^480 a year........ I also thought Northern's response regarding the ticket machine was poor. This is also an issue I've experienced myself and I've had some good feedback and some not so good feedback when raising the issues. However it was very impressive that the Northern Ticket Office saved the reporter ^18 on a ticket to Bristol. I also think the undercover reporting was reasonably accurate based on how FGW are being run at this present time. I also agree there are some excellent staff out there who go above and beyond. But I do have issue with staff / TOC not following the rules when they need to and the passenger plays by the rules correctly. Finally the comment from the Transport Focus chap was most intriguing... I am often told by rail staff I know more than they do and that "I am handy to have around when it starts going wrong..." Title: Re: Channel 4 Dispatches: Are you paying too much? 1st June 8pm Post by: TaplowGreen on June 03, 2015, 13:08:18 Speaking as someone who does not work on the railway and is not an enthusiast, but whose life is impacted by its frailties I have to say that I found the whole programme (which I watched last night) pretty shocking.........I wonder how many other organisations would get away with using methods which are at best disingenous to massage performance figures, failing to fulfil regulatory obligations to sell customers the most appropriate/cheapest ticket (and training/encouraging their staff not to), vending machines next door to each other selling tickets for the same journey at wildly different prices, and basing decisions on "goodwill" gestures on how "nice" the customer is rather than the justification for making it.
The piece on the appalling way in which customers are not kept informed in times of delays etc was also extremely telling and confirmed what many of us had long suspected. I'm with BNM - aside from pockets of excellence, customers are regarded as an inconvenience to be tolerated at best, or otherwise treated with something between indifference & contempt. Title: Re: Channel 4 Dispatches: Are you paying too much? 1st June 8pm Post by: PhilWakely on June 03, 2015, 13:12:19 .........I wonder how many other organisations would get away with using methods which are at best disingenous...... HM Government :o This page is printed from the "Coffee Shop" forum at http://gwr.passenger.chat which is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway. Views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that content provided contravenes our posting rules ( see http://railcustomer.info/1761 ). The forum is hosted by Well House Consultants - http://www.wellho.net |