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All across the Great Western territory => The Wider Picture Overseas => Topic started by: stuving on June 25, 2015, 22:47:23



Title: "They don't have major project delays like this in the rest of Europe" ...?
Post by: stuving on June 25, 2015, 22:47:23
Some of you may remember my favourite French branch line - well, sort of - Nantes to Saint-Gilles-Croix-de-Vie. It was notable for the dire state of the track, kept going by make do and mend maintenance and severe speed restrictions.

Well, it came down to a choice of either renew it or close it - and it was decided to renew the track completely (really, just from Sainte-Pazanne). Since holiday travel is very important here, it had to stay open in July and August, so the window for work would be September 2014 to the following June. So for ten months the line has been closed completely, with replacement buses. Reopening was promised on July 5th (when July starts as far as French holidays are concerned).

Then yesterday SNCF came out with this press release (http://www.sncf-reseau.fr/sites/default/files/upload/_Mediatheque/presse/CP%20NSGNP%2024%2006%2015.pdf) (my translation):

Quote
Delayed reopening of the Nantes-Saint-Gilles/Nantes-Pornic lines.

Press release
Wednesday 24th June 2015

SNCF R^seau has decided to defer the reopening of the Nantes-Saint-Gilles-Croix-de-Vie/Nantes-Pornic lines, initially planned for 5th July, to ensure it will comply from the start with all safety requirements. Alternative travel arrangements will be announced on 1st July.

Following the handover of the completed work by the subcontractors responsible for rebuilding the line, SNCF R^seau proceeded during June with testing and verification. This has shown some areas where more work is needed to ensure the complete safety of traffic.

Refusing to compromise on safety, SNCF R^seau has decided to carry out urgent checks and further work over the summer months. All work on the track itself is complete, but the contractors' work on safety qualification of level crossings and signalling is not acceptable.  Jacques Rapoport, president of SNCF R^seau, immediately warned Jacques Auxiette, the president of the Pays de la Loire Region, and the co-funders of the project to inform them of this situation and to assure them of the mobilization of the company.

All the teams of SNCF R^seau and the partner companies will be mobilized during the summer to allow services on these lines to start from the beginning of September.

An audit overseen by external auditors independent of the SNCF will allow us:
- to fix the timescales for opening each section of the line;
- to propose the most effective methods to accelerate the work without compromising safety;
- to attribute responsibilities for the delay;
- to propose corrective actions to prevent that this type of missed delivery date happening again.

The results will be communicated to the regional Council and will be made public before the end of
 this week.

An exceptional mobilization
The public-sector railway group as a whole has been mobilized to minimize the impact on customers, and has immediately taken several decisions:

For customers:
SNCF Mobilit^s is already working on a reorganisation of the current replacement service, and
will announce by July 1 alternative solutions matched to the needs of its various customers. Exceptional measures will be put in place.

Customers who have already bought their ticket or have made a reservation on the Nantes-Saint-Gilles or the Nantes-Pornic lines will be refunded in full, no matter what type of ticket has been bought. In addition, all TGV customers who have planned travel on these lines will be recontacted to let them know about the new possibilities being made available.

Travellers will be informed on 1st July by the usual channels (personnel in stations, "contact TER Pays de la Loire", paysdelaloire.ter.sncf.com,  SNCF and TER Mobile applications).

For the works programme:
- SNCF R^seau will take back control of work on line.
- Teams from SNCF R^seau are to be mobilized to reinforce those of the subcontractors.
In addition, Jacques Rapoport, President of the SNCF Network, announces that ^while many collaborations with company's partners perform well and make a real contribution to the modernization of the railway, the SNCF will from now on retain the supervisory role on all projects."
 
Note that this project, costing 109 M^, and of a large scale (84 km of lines renovated in ten months, with a level crossing every 700 meters), and starting in September 2014, required the adoption of innovative practices to complete this work of restoration within a very short time. The speed of the trains will be increased to 140 km/h.

A few more figures - that 84 kn is mostly single track, with 22 level crossing upgraded and 9 closed. Six small and one large bridge were replaced in whole or in part, and all stations get higher platforms and some are lengthened.

Oddly, the signalling was modernised five years ago, so presumably it is its recertification that is in question.

(Typo in date corrected)


Title: Re: "They don't have major project delays like this in the rest of Europe" ...?
Post by: eightf48544 on June 26, 2015, 09:14:17
Then there's the continuing saga of the Brussells Amsterdamn high speed line.


Title: Re: "They don't have major project delays like this in the rest of Europe" ...?
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on June 26, 2015, 10:15:41
Is that press release really dated 2014?


Title: Re: "They don't have major project delays like this in the rest of Europe" ...?
Post by: stuving on June 26, 2015, 10:24:14
Is that press release really dated 2014?
No - just my translation (in the sense of moving from A to B) error.


Title: Re: "They don't have major project delays like this in the rest of Europe" ...?
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on June 26, 2015, 11:31:26
...or perhaps it's the time warp as you cross the Channel.


Title: Re: "They don't have major project delays like this in the rest of Europe" ...?
Post by: stuving on July 18, 2015, 07:40:35
I have an update to this story, which I'll get round to posting real soon now, honest.

While you are waiting, here's another bit of news to trigger your d^  vu ganglions (no English source that I can find, but there are some pictures).

From Le Figaro (http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2015/07/17/01016-20150717ARTFIG00289-le-trafic-tgv-interrompu-entre-montparnasse-et-le-sud-ouest-jusqu-a-20-heures.php):

Paris-Bordeaux line closed for four hours on one of those busy holiday "criss-cross" weekends, due to an SNCF track worker hittting a catenary support mast with his vehicle -
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CKH6B6rWUAAc99_.jpg)

The "quick" fix was to send a crane to hold it upright while they thought of a better idea:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CKIhlu1WgAAuh5g.jpg)

Of course both the incident, and its cure, only happened because there was an access road next to the track (though not so close as to explain how that driver ever got to hit the mast - and at some speed, by the look of it).

PS: there were also a couple of lineside fires to close the diversionary routes near Bordeaux.


(Edit to correct font on the French bit)


Title: Re: "They don't have major project delays like this in the rest of Europe" ...?
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on July 18, 2015, 22:36:22
... due to an SNCF track worker hitting a catenary support mast with his vehicle -

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CKH6B6rWUAAc99_.jpg)

... there was an access road next to the track (though not so close as to explain how that driver ever got to hit the mast - and at some speed, by the look of it).

Indeed: he's apparently hit that mast at a good pace, to have caused such damage and overturn his car.  :o ::) ???


Title: Re: "They don't have major project delays like this in the rest of Europe" ...?
Post by: 4064ReadingAbbey on July 19, 2015, 14:17:41
For other delayed projects on the continent of Europe one has to look no further than the saga of Berlin Brandenburg Airport - the planned new airport being built next to the existing Sch^nefeld airport to replace it and Tegel.

It was supposed to open in 2010 and now it looks as if it won't be ready before 2019...

For English language summaries see  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Brandenburg_Airport and http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/10755543/Berlins-long-delayed-airport-needs-1.1-billion-bailout.html

My brother-in-law lives near Potsdam and it has recently been announced that the flight paths, in spite of previous announcements that they would avoid the area, will be re-routed close by. The natives are very restless...!

Getting back to rail topics another poorly planned project is the on-going saga of the rebuild of Stuttgart's Hauptbahnhof from a terminus to an underground through station, the project being known as Stuttgart 21. Widely exceeds its cost estimates and much later than planned.


Title: Re: "They don't have major project delays like this in the rest of Europe" ...?
Post by: stuving on July 19, 2015, 20:15:45
Back, belatedly, to this thread's sheep. The original SNCF press notice, on Wednesday 24h June, promised an audit to be published "before the end of the week". And it was - it was carried out from 23rd to 25th and delivered in some form by the Thursday afternoon, though in full written form the following week.

That seems impressive, but really it was just a sanity check on the internal management investigation, performed by SNCF's Director of Audit and Risk and an external consultant engineer. They may have queried some facts, and rewritten some conclusions, but little more.

The story is set out in this presentation (http://www.sncf-reseau.fr/sites/default/files/upload/_Mediatheque/Audits/rapport%20audit%20du%20projet%20de%20r%C3%A9ouverture%20des%20lignes%20Nantes-Pornic%20-%20St%20Gilles%20Croix%20de%20vie%2002juil2015.pptx), where the management jargon is tricky - you need to know your ma^trise d^ouvrage d^gu^e from you ma^tre d^uvre g^rale. But it does have some familiar features, starting with the use of subcontractors because of the shortage of S&T effort within SNCF.

The main signalling was renewed earlier, so the new elements are mainly for the level crossings. These were either open or AHB and now need to be AHB but for higher line speed. The train detectors were the key item, and a design issue meant they were replaced late on. A few other "normal" delays also arose (asbestos found, that sort of thing).

With these delays, and the shortage of key staff being even worse than expected, an extra package of work was transferred to a subcontractor, covering test and certification of the new signals systems. Of course the required additonal specialists, who need to be familiar with SNCF paperwork, didn't actually exist for anyone to employ. So the work was done with a few experts trying to train up novices on the job. Error number one - if you are the only end-user of a kind of labour, you should know how much of it is out there.

The work had to be done in ten months, since the line has to be open during July and August for the French holiday season. So the reopening date on 5th July was very fixed - making it impossible to suggest any delay. When work fell behind, the remaining programme was adjusted to become more and more a fantasy, while the parties stopped talking to each other except for the formal minimum via official channels. And the overall project director (or owner) didn't spot that and intervene. Error number two - well, several, really - such as don't believe a completion date (or any other promise) just becasue it's what you wanted to hear.

The "get better" programme involves enforced cooperation via joint working groups, and the pooling of expertise to make sure the contractors know how the documentation has to be done. Also, SNCF's maintainers, who are the real "customer", are to be fully involved where they were left out until too late before.


Title: Re: "They don't have major project delays like this in the rest of Europe" ...?
Post by: stuving on August 15, 2015, 16:49:28
I did say I'd report how this work was going, as I've got the notes and pictures, so here - in the interests of comparative ferrology - it is.

In their apologetic announcement of the overrun, SNCF promised "exceptional measures" to minimise the impact of not opening the line. So what does that mean? Not much, as far as I can see.

This is a single line with passing possible only at stations, and these are spaced at roughly 20/20/12/12/12 km, so this does not severely restrict service frequency. The line speed is being raised from 90 to 140 km/h in December, and timings should improve a lot then. Bus replacement to St Pazanne increases the 90 minutes journey time to around two hours. A direct bus would be quicker, but was not on offer even though there were plenty hired in.

The service (http://cdn.ter.sncf.com/medias/PDF/pays_de_la_loire/%28PDF%29L11%20NS%20-%20CHA%20-%20SGV%20du%2005-07%20au%2030-08%20V2%20du%2023-07_tcm67-55344_tcm67-53641.pdf) was almost the same as before August, and that was much the same as before the closure and from September (http://cdn.ter.sncf.com/medias/PDF/pays_de_la_loire/%28PDF%29L11%20NS%20-%20CHA%20-%20SGV%20du%2031-08%20au%2012-12_tcm67-57727_tcm67-57724.pdf) (ignoring the usual changes between in (July-August) and out of season timetables). There are about nine services a day (midweek, with a few more Monday or Friday). With three for commuters into Nantes, the rest are unevenly spaced with some big gaps between them. Some of those services have always been SNCF buses, but with similar timings as the line was so slow.

Confusingly, in addition to the rail replacement buses there are two other kinds, which are in the normal timetable. Some are the SNCF buses, i.e. train services run by buses. However, one of these - the last train from Nantes on Friday - is now a train (with bus). This is not, however, good news as this normal bus took 90 minutes like the train (with a few fewer strops).

The other buses are "regional", and serve railway stops on the way to other places. As the region pays 2/3 of the cost of the trains, they are in a sense the owners of both.
There are also special buses from the railhead to the coast and back, just once a day (but these may be a normal summer season addition). Cost - only ^2. Some of them seem to connect with the curtailed trains - some don't fit at all. They were not much publicised, that I could see.

So how did it all work out? Well, they did hire in a lot of buses. Most were old, and came from Transdev or local coach companies including the scarily-named Sovetours. There were not, on the whole, a lot of passengers. The buses ran fairly well to time, though the one I was on wasn't very well to start with. The driver thought it was having trouble getting its air pressure up - which is taking its train imitation a bit too far.

There were, if not Ribena girls, some "filles grenadine", whose T-shirts said "Effia synergies" (but the boss (SNCF) was, indeed, a "gars cassis"). Effia are a big transport consultancy/outsourcing company that help run the buses, and customer phone lines, and probably much besides. At the railhead at St Pazanne, there were at least six of these Effia helpers (not all female), which was more than enough to shepherd twenty people.

Actually, France has always been big in outsourcing - that may seem odd, given the protected nature of government jobs in particular. However, that is one of the main reasons; if flexibility is important it can be impossible to use standard labour contracts. Recently they have even been doing big infrastructure projects on a PPP basis, starting with "Atlantique 2017" (LGVs to Bordeaux and Rennes).

So the rail replacement was adequate but tedious, much as here. It did run smoothly, but with a year's practice and few takers so it should. As well as the bus/train service, I also went to Nantes by car and tram, which was quicker (but only slightly, as the "P+R" I wanted was full), and of course allowed much more flexible timings.


Title: Re: "They don't have major project delays like this in the rest of Europe" ...?
Post by: stuving on August 15, 2015, 16:54:52
What did this rebuild involve?

Well, all those scary old rotten sleepers have gone, and most of the rail is new (though of course it's hard to tell as it's as rusty as old rail). The before and after pictures are the same bit of track.

At St Gilles the switches have been either kept or replaced in situ, and mounted on new wooden sleepers (for length), and they are still manually operated. The point levers are old, though the operating linkages have bee reconditioned with new parts and things like railings added.

What looks really odd to me is that they have retained the crossover at the station end of platforms 1 & 2 (the loco escape). They also have put in a stainless steel sentry box thing, apparently for someone to shelter in - maybe to operate the level crossing, or the points? In the past the point motor cycled from the station along the platform, and I can't imagine he'd want to be sitting out there all day.

The other stations have essentially just passing loops, so I wonder if they would have some automatic or self-acting switch at each end rather than levers, if they can't afford electricity.


Title: Re: "They don't have major project delays like this in the rest of Europe" ...?
Post by: stuving on August 15, 2015, 17:04:39
It was reported that the two aspects of signalling that were disastrously late were certification documentation and the control and activiation of level crossings. Here are some S&T types working on PN 26, which involved setting off the warning bell from time to time while lots of "tabardiers" stand around and watch. One of these two was logoed "Saferail", that being a local rail engineering contractor - they say they were solely responsible for S&C on the tram-train to Chateaubriant.

Just to the right is this signal, controlling the crossing and exit from the station. It is, of course, one of those funny French things, complete with mystic Pictish symbols.


Title: Re: "They don't have major project delays like this in the rest of Europe" ...?
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on August 15, 2015, 19:49:14
Quote
with 22 level crossing upgraded and 9 closed

Almost exactly 2 years ago, I was holidaying by car (with caravan) in this part of France. It is a fantastic area for this type of holiday, by the way.

Whilst navigating by satnav (we had a map aswell, but it didn't help much in this case), we came across one of the above-mentioned closed crossings (as far as I can recall, there were no road signs warning us in advance of this), with an earth bank where the road and crossing used to be and an OHLE'd single-track railway beyond.

There was no space to manouver out with the caravan still attached, so no option but to un-hitch, turn the car around, turn the caravan around, re-hitch and proceed back the way we had come.

It wasn't too far, but I was not a happy bunny (it was a hot day, and I'd been driving for about 10 hours by this point), and neither were the wife and kids, who saw it as my fault that we had ended up at a dead end!


Title: Re: "They don't have major project delays like this in the rest of Europe" ...?
Post by: TonyK on August 15, 2015, 20:07:46

Indeed: he's apparently hit that mast at a good pace, to have caused such damage and overturn his car.  :o ::) ???

Formidable! He sounds more Italian to me.


Title: Re: "They don't have major project delays like this in the rest of Europe" ...?
Post by: stuving on August 15, 2015, 22:40:28
Quote
with 22 level crossing upgraded and 9 closed

Almost exactly 2 years ago, I was holidaying by car (with caravan) in this part of France. It is a fantastic area for this type of holiday, by the way.

Whilst navigating by satnav (we had a map aswell, but it didn't help much in this case), we came across one of the above-mentioned closed crossings (as far as I can recall, there were no road signs warning us in advance of this), with an earth bank where the road and crossing used to be and an OHLE'd single-track railway beyond.

There was no space to manouver out with the caravan still attached, so no option but to un-hitch, turn the car around, turn the caravan around, re-hitch and proceed back the way we had come.

It wasn't too far, but I was not a happy bunny (it was a hot day, and I'd been driving for about 10 hours by this point), and neither were the wife and kids, who saw it as my fault that we had ended up at a dead end!

That wasn't this line, which is entirely OHLE-free. The main line south to La Roche sur Yon is electrified, but double track, and the nearest single line that is must be one from there to Les Sables d'Olonne.

What is true is that SNCF are pursuing their programme of level crossing closure much more actively than NR (quelle surprise!). The next two crossing from PN16 at St Gilles were closed about five years ago, and replaced by a bridge, though the traffic (even in the holiday season) hardly makes that vital. Note that there are still barriers, even for the bridge...


Title: Re: "They don't have major project delays like this in the rest of Europe" ...?
Post by: ellendune on August 16, 2015, 08:19:09
What is true is that SNCF are pursuing their programme of level crossing closure much more actively than NR (quelle surprise!). The next two crossing from PN16 at St Gilles were closed about five years ago, and replaced by a bridge, though the traffic (even in the holiday season) hardly makes that vital. Note that there are still barriers, even for the bridge...

Is that all down to NR or is it that SNCF don't have to pander to local NIMBYs. 


Title: Re: "They don't have major project delays like this in the rest of Europe" ...?
Post by: stuving on August 16, 2015, 16:57:01
What is true is that SNCF are pursuing their programme of level crossing closure much more actively than NR (quelle surprise!). The next two crossing from PN16 at St Gilles were closed about five years ago, and replaced by a bridge, though the traffic (even in the holiday season) hardly makes that vital. Note that there are still barriers, even for the bridge...

Is that all down to NR or is it that SNCF don't have to pander to local NIMBYs. 

Hard to say, really, partly due to the lack of good data, but I think it has more to do with the integrated nature of French government (including SNCF). The NIMBYs, and they do exist, are likely to be well represented inside government, especially at the lowest (commune) level which is responsible for minor roads.

It's not the size of the budget - SNCF R^seau refer to ^35 or 50M a year, and say a closure (not clearly defined) costs ^3-10M. SNCF only contributes part of the cost, so I suspect the various levels of government may be putting in more than here. Note also that ^10M upper cost figure - that should apply to a bridge over or under a major road. If it does, that bears out the suggestion that such civil engineering jobs cost a lot more here than elsewhere in Europe (and France in particular).

Government does more direct supervision of SNCF and other actors, rather than pretending they are independent and negotiating contracts with them. That's partly a different mindset, and partly that SNCF has always been a part of government, and has never had its legal status changed by privatisation or "privatisation". Of course being nore integrated with government doesn't necessarily help.

In terms of administrative efficiency or complexity, the French model is famous for being slow and cumbersome, with lots of overlapping responsibilities. For level crossing there is a coordinating body, created in 1997, headed by the ministry (of ecology, sustainable development, and energy - which now includes transport). Two directorates of this ministry supervise SNCF: transport infrastructure (for SNCF R^seau) and transport services  (for SNCF Mobilit^s). This coordinating group for the improvement of safety at level crossings includes representation from SNCF, regions, other local government, research bodies, etc. And during the last year, at least two more committees have been created by the transport minister to do with railway safety in general or level crossings.

But once it decides to do something, it can be very effective. Think about roundabouts or cycle paths, both of which were rare in France not long ago (about 25 years and 15 years respectively). Then they were identified centrally as "good things", and slowly started to appear all over the country. Now both are more common than they are here - there's a kind of momentum that keeps the process going. But having said that, any one level crossing closure can still take many years.

I can think of two specific features of the French system that may contribute. On is the prefect and prefecture, meaning that a significant part of central government is split into 100 local parts, headed by a kind of generalised deputy minister. That allows central government to coordinate local government in a very detailed way. The second is that consultations and enquiries seem to be less independent - being run by the central government departments or agencies. So yes, there is local consultation, but it's less of an adversarial either/or decision, more of an enquiry to find the "best" solution.


Title: Re: "They don't have major project delays like this in the rest of Europe" ...?
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on August 16, 2015, 21:01:56
Quote
That wasn't this line, which is entirely OHLE-free. The main line south to La Roche sur Yon is electrified, but double track, and the nearest single line that is must be one from there to Les Sables d'Olonne.

I think it was somewhere between La Roche sur Yon and Les Sables, but couldn't be 100% certain. The site we were heading to (La Garangeoire, near St. Julien des Landes) is not very far north of where that line runs.


Title: Re: "They don't have major project delays like this in the rest of Europe" ...?
Post by: stuving on September 03, 2015, 12:29:28
Well, the line did reopen on time (as revised) on Sunday 30th August. And having understandably been very angry, and rude, about the last-minute deferment, even the local politicians seem to have joined in the smiles and self-congratulation on the day (though that mood was lost soon after, as the line was closed in Nantes due to a suicide on the track).


Title: Re: "They don't have major project delays like this in the rest of Europe" ...?
Post by: stuving on November 14, 2015, 20:59:06
As a footnote to the reopening (well, I hope it's not the first of a series) a train derailed at Sainte-Pazanne station on October 12th. This was an X73500 (Banana) single-car TER, and the points changed underneath it at a crossover.

This was due to a wrong-side track circuit failure, or "d^shuntage furtif", which is a known problem with this train type. They are quite light, and short (only four axles), and run often on old track with few trains (though that is not true at this site) and none heavy enough to really strip rust off. So a new rule has been imposed that they must not run alone, only in multiple - causing an instant shortage.

I gather that that TCAs (gizmos that persuade the track circuit detector the block is occupied) are not much used in France, and not fitted on these ones.


Title: Re: "They don't have major project delays like this in the rest of Europe" ...?
Post by: grahame on March 04, 2020, 16:34:28
For other delayed projects on the continent of Europe one has to look no further than the saga of Berlin Brandenburg Airport - the planned new airport being built next to the existing Sch^nefeld airport to replace it and Tegel.

It was supposed to open in 2010 and now it looks as if it won't be ready before 2019...

It wasn't (ready before 2019) but plan are that it's ready before 2021. From FlightGlobal (https://www.flightglobal.com/networks/lufthansa-to-make-brandenburg-switch-in-november/137081.article)

Quote
Lufthansa Group intends to transfer its mainline operations from Berlin Tegel to the German capital’s new Brandenburg airport a week after the long-delayed opening on 31 October [2020].

The airline group says Lufthansa, Austrian Airlines, Swiss and Brussels Airlines will start operating from Brandenburg on 8 November.


Title: Re: "They don't have major project delays like this in the rest of Europe" ...?
Post by: grahame on October 30, 2020, 08:37:37
For other delayed projects on the continent of Europe one has to look no further than the saga of Berlin Brandenburg Airport - the planned new airport being built next to the existing Schonefeld airport to replace it and Tegel.

It was supposed to open in 2010 and now it looks as if it won't be ready before 2019...

Finally welcomes passengers tomorrow - Bloomberg (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-10-30/berlin-s-7-billion-brandenburg-airport-finally-opens-in-the-depths-of-a-crisis) reports

Quote
Berlin?s new airport will finally welcome passengers after an eight-year delay, opening its doors just as fallout from the coronavirus hammers travel demand.

The limestone floors have been polished smooth, the ticket counters buffed and shops stocked with wares as the Berlin Brandenburg Willy Brandt Airport ? known by its airport code BER ? prepares for its inaugural flight on Saturday.

But the facility will just be a stunted version of the original plan. A second terminal won?t open for now because it?s not needed in the midst of the crisis.


Title: Re: "They don't have major project delays like this in the rest of Europe" ...?
Post by: Surrey 455 on October 30, 2020, 20:41:46

Quote
A second terminal won?t open for now because it?s not needed in the midst of the crisis.

Terminal 2 may not be opening just yet but the old Schonefeld airport terminal has been renamed Terminal 5 and will remain open until the opening of Terminal 3 which is planned to be 2030.


Title: Re: "They don't have major project delays like this in the rest of Europe" ...?
Post by: ellendune on October 30, 2020, 21:26:32
I was booked on a flight there in 2012. At the last minute it was cancelled and replaced with a flight to Tegel. 


Title: Re: "They don't have major project delays like this in the rest of Europe" ...?
Post by: Electric train on October 31, 2020, 18:08:16

Quote
A second terminal won?t open for now because it?s not needed in the midst of the crisis.

Terminal 2 may not be opening just yet but the old Schonefeld airport terminal has been renamed Terminal 5 and will remain open until the opening of Terminal 3 which is planned to be 2030.

I quite liked flying to and from Schonefeld airport, always reminded me of Gatwick 40 years ago  ;D


Title: Re: "They don't have major project delays like this in the rest of Europe" ...?
Post by: Surrey 455 on October 31, 2020, 19:46:59

Quote
A second terminal won?t open for now because it?s not needed in the midst of the crisis.

Terminal 2 may not be opening just yet but the old Schonefeld airport terminal has been renamed Terminal 5 and will remain open until the opening of Terminal 3 which is planned to be 2030.

I quite liked flying to and from Schonefeld airport, always reminded me of Gatwick 40 years ago  ;D

All of my Berlin flights have been through Schonefeld. I seem to remember the only catering options after passport control were Burger King, a bar, Duty Free and a newsagent. I hope the new terminal has more choice. Oh, and I hope it has more seats too.


Title: Re: "They don't have major project delays like this in the rest of Europe" ...?
Post by: johnneyw on October 31, 2020, 21:39:56
My only flight to and from Berlin was through Schonefeld which I think was originally the East German airport for Berlin.  It had probably already been modernised a lot when I was there about 13 years ago and I remember it as being a reasonably up to date airport with good rail and SBahn connection to central Berlin. I opted for the SBahn both ways and was pleased that I did as it provided some interesting views of the city. I wonder if the converted rail carriage cafe is still there near the entrance by the covered walkway leading to the station(s)?


Title: Re: "They don't have major project delays like this in the rest of Europe" ...?
Post by: stuving on October 31, 2020, 23:12:54
My only flight to and from Berlin was through Schonefeld which I think was originally the East German airport for Berlin.  It had probably already been modernised a lot when I was there about 13 years ago and I remember it as being a reasonably up to date airport with good rail and SBahn connection to central Berlin. I opted for the SBahn both ways and was pleased that I did as it provided some interesting views of the city. I wonder if the converted rail carriage cafe is still there near the entrance by the covered walkway leading to the station(s)?

Good heavens no - even "permanent" airport buildings get rebuilt every few years, and these "temporary" ones get moved every year or two. That "Die S-Bahn" was moved from by Terminal C to Terminal D when that was built, then replaced by something bigger - and more German - and wooden (or course). Which was then replaced by something bigger on the car park. And by now? Who kones?

I flew to Berlin twice, and only ever used Tegel, which was of course odd in its own way. I never actually walked to or from it, which was quite feasible if only from Charlottenburg-Nord. Nor did I go by train (S- or U-), which was strangely never possible. So it was the bus (109 or X9).


Title: Re: "They don't have major project delays like this in the rest of Europe" ...?
Post by: johnneyw on November 01, 2020, 00:50:57

Good heavens no - even "permanent" airport buildings get rebuilt every few years, and these "temporary" ones get moved every year or two. That "Die S-Bahn" was moved from by Terminal C to Terminal D when that was built, then replaced by something bigger - and more German - and wooden (or course). Which was then replaced by something bigger on the car park. And by now? Who kones?

I had a quick look on TripAdvisor which had Die esS Bahn's most recent location being at Tegel.  It seems to still be able to move a bit!


Title: Re: "They don't have major project delays like this in the rest of Europe" ...?
Post by: Surrey 455 on November 01, 2020, 22:37:14
That "Die S-Bahn" was moved from by Terminal C to Terminal D when that was built, then replaced by something bigger - and more German - and wooden (or course). Which was then replaced by something bigger on the car park. And by now? Who kones?

The old railway carriage that I remember walking past was removed in 2015.
From Der Tagesspiegel and translated by Google (https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/umfunktionierte-zuege-in-berlin-die-ess-bahn-in-schoenefeld-ist-weg/12081532.html)

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The EsS-Bahn in Sch?nefeld is gone
The "EsS-Bahn" still exists in Tegel, but has disappeared at Sch?nefeld Airport. The days of other converted trains are also numbered - at least in Berlin.
For many who land in Berlin by plane, it has cult status: the currywurst stall called EsS-Bahn, which is right in front of the Tegel and Sch?nefeld airports. At both locations, the Berlin sausage specialty is served from a historic S-Bahn railcar from the ?Stadtbahn? series from the 1920s. This is now a tradition: last week the converted wagon stationed in Tegel celebrated its 15th anniversary.

The disappointment for fans of the Berlin institution is all the greater: The EsS-Bahn in Sch?nefeld no longer exists. The curry sausage train at Sch?nefeld Airport was already in operation at the end of June, and the wagon, which had space for around 30 guests, was removed on the night of last Sunday. Instead, there is a Witty's snack stand in the same place in front of Terminal A. It doesn't have an unusual design, but it does advertise organic curry sausage. Airport press spokesman Lars Wagner explains that the contract for the EsS-Bahn in Sch?nefeld has simply expired. Wagner does not comment on the question of why it was not extended. "At least in Tegel we are still very happy about the EsS-Bahn."


Title: Re: "They don't have major project delays like this in the rest of Europe" ...?
Post by: Surrey 455 on February 12, 2021, 17:58:56
A few months after opening, new faults and design failures have been discovered at Berlin Brandenburg Airport

From https://onemileatatime.com/berlin-airport-cold/

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Brandenburg Airport is freezing in winter
Despite the amount of time that went into construction of the new Brandenburg Airport, it seems that some things weren’t very well thought out. Terminal 1 is the main terminal of the new airport. The train to the airport arrives just underneath the main check-in hall, so it’s convenient that you only have to walk a short distance from the train to check-in.

There’s only one small problem — this setup has caused the check-in hall to be freezing cold in winter. Essentially the frequent freezing easterly winds in winter enter through the tunnels of the underground train station, and are then “blasted” into the check-in hall.

As a result, the check-in hall is apparently extremely cold, with many days seeing single digit temperatures (in Celsius). For context, nine degrees Celsius is about 48 degrees Fahrenheit.

For now the airport has closed the check-in counters near the center of the terminal, which is where the temperatures are coldest, though they do spread throughout the terminal.


I wonder how this was not noticed during the many previous winters before opening.

And from the same web page

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Brandenburg Airport security staff receiving electric shocks
The temperature is only the latest problem at Berlin Brandenburg Airport. A few weeks ago the airport was in the news for issues with the security checkpoint. The Verdi trade union representing security staff said employees were routinely receiving electric shocks at the security checkpoints while inspecting luggage.

Employees are reporting severe pain, numbness, and drowsiness, following these shocks.

This was so bad that 11 different incidents happened on January 6 alone, with four staff requiring assistance from emergency personnel. One employee was even shocked four times in a day:



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