Great Western Coffee Shop

Question from John R:

Ben

Firstly, thank you very much for offering to hold this session. As a regular commuter between Nailsea and Swindon I appreciate the opportunity to ask you some questions about the new trains.

As is well documented, the new trains will not have a buffet car, but instead a trolley service. If I recall, at the time this announcement was made, it was stated that customer research indicated that more people would purchase from a trolley than a static buffet facility. Firstly I'd like to ask whether this research was really carried out in a neutral fashion, or whether the questioning was designed to elicit the answer that you (or maybe the DfT) wanted to hear. Perhaps you could share the question(s) asked, and the responses given to enable us to judge.

I believe the abolition of buffets on long distance services is a retrograde step for the following reasons:-

You can go and use the buffet at any time it's open, not just when it passes you, and you're unlikely to be able to second guess when that might be. (How long will a trolley take to get down a 9 coach train?)
There is a vastly wider selection of items, and the ability to keep those items chilled or hot is improved
If the train is standing room only, it won't be able to journey down the train
It's difficult to pass a trolley if you need to
Keeping the trolley fully stocked will be more difficult

The only conceivable customer benefit of a trolley is that it comes to your seat (if you're lucky) and enables you to purchase whilst keeping your luggage in view.

I appreciate that you have said that hot food will be available, prepared and then served at the seat, but it would be interesting to understand how this will work in practice, if the trolley host has to get the said item from the other end of the train. What happens if they can't get down the train due to overcrowding, and how do they secure the contents of the trolley in the meantime?

The trains have been designed to have buffets fitted if need be, and indeed the other long distance operator of the trains has recently announced that it is to include them. So why do passengers in the FGW franchise region have to put up with second best, and a catering facility that is more appropriate to regional services.

Again many thanks, and I look forward to your response.

John R

P.S. To Forum Administrators - thank you too for facilitating this discussion.

Thanks for the question John.

This is an area where I think we have generally not been very good at articulating exactly what we intend to offer in terms of our food and drink services. What we are certainly not talking about is a trolley service like the one we have today. But more on that in a bit.

The customer research was carried out by an independent research body on our behalf, but as you say such surveys do not always tell you the full story, however careful you are about making sure the questions are neutrally put.

Perhaps much more revealing were the in-service trials we carried out across the network, which effectively sold twice as much as we would normally expect to sell at the buffet car. This is not simply asking someone's opinion, rather measuring their actual behaviour, which is much more useful in my view.

I completely understand that some of our customers will like a buffet car, but a very large proportion prefer not to leave their seats - and their increasingly expensive belongings - to go and get some food.

It is true that the buffet is always in the same place so I would agree it is easier to know where to look! However the majority of customers are very clear with us that they want the service to be brought to their seat if possible. Our trials suggest that we will encourage far more people to buy from us if we do this.

Trolleys can also be positioned in a designated point on the train, so if there are problems getting down the train this is what we will do. The train is designed with a designated space to park the trolley.

On the busier trains we will run 2 trolleys to make this easier. This is one of the reasons we have said we will be employing 75 extra Customer Hosts to run the SET food and drink offer.

All of the SETs have a full kitchen so we can supply the trolleys with extra supplies from there.

I accept though that we will have to think carefully about the logistics of the trolley service to make sure we overcome the potential issues, but we have time to do this.

What were the questions asked by this independent research body? When and where were they asked? How many passengers were surveyed?

Of course if the trolley can't get down the train you may not be able to get to the buffet from coach A anyway!

Our cleaning team tell us that they find very few of our coffee cups in coaches A and B, so we have quite a bit of evidence that people in those coaches do not venture to the buffet car at the moment even on a train that isn't crowded.

I can't agree that this is second best - every SET will have a fully functional kitchen on board - unlike our current High Speed Train fleet. This means we can serve hot and cold food on any service.

The kitchens are situated in First Class on each train, and will allow us to change our offering for First Class customers as well. In fact, the trolley is likely to go from First completely with a person, at seat service from a dedicated customer host, operating directly out of the kitchen.

Ben

Thanks very much for the responses. As a 1st class season ticket holder your last comment is of interest. But I also travel standard for leisure and also enjoy using the open space in the buffet area now and again, hence the original question.   I guess I'm a bit puzzled if there is a kitchen area taking up space, why it couldn't have been made a buffet open to all, between first and standard as today?

And we have moved on to the next question.    Further follow up welcome (if you are typing) or at the end ... I'm not going to lock the thread, but it's not fair of us to bombard Ben with lots of questions at once  ;)

A cynic like me might suspect that FGW "have generally not been very good at articulating what we intend to offer in terms of food and drink" because they wanted to conceal the fact that the new trains don't have buffets, until it was too late to alter this.
For some year on these forums I have offered as an opinion, and more recently I have stated as a fact that "the new trains wont have buffets"
Many respected members of these forums felt that such views were unduly negative.

"of course they will have buffets"
"they will probably have buffets"
"a buffet could be installed if the TOC want one"
"a buffet could be retrofitted"

And eventually an admission that they don't have buffets.

I too share the doubts expressed by others as to how precisely hot food is to be served in standard class from a trolley, I also have doubts about the sufficiency of trolley stocks of chilled beer. I have observed very substantial volumes of beer being sold on some trains and doubt that a trolley could cope.

I'm not about to reveal all here! However, the trial was carried out between January and March 2014, with a statistically significant sample size, on a selection of trains across the areas SETs will run on.

Hey ... we're carrying on this conversation later as we've moved on to Okehampton now (but as it's a long answer I'm sure you were typing earlier, broad gage!)

The kitchen does save some space compared to an equivalent kitchen/buffet counter combination. Capacity is a huge issue for the franchise so this was a key concern when the train was specified. We know that some customers enjoy using the open space around the buffet car at times, but we have large numbers of customers who have to stand when they would like to have a seat. The decision on kitchen/buffet car/trolley had to be made bearing in mind customer preference for a service at seat and the need to deliver capacity.

So the trial and surveys were carried out after the interior design for the Greater Western franchise Class 800/801s was signed off? Pointless exercise really.

Thanks again Ben.

Sorry this is your view, but we've not sought to hide it. Staff started looking at and giving feedback on the plans for the new trains around three years ago.

I think many of the concerns you mention are based on the idea that somehow we think we can deliver this service with something similar to the current trolleys. We can't.
There are plenty of more sophisticated trolleys on the market that keep things hot, and keep things cool, and even serve a proper cup of coffee. A quick google will give you some idea.





Edit note: Quote marks fixed, purely for clarity. CfN.

I think the members of this forum do not necessarily represent a good cross section of the travelling public.

My preference is definitely for a trolley service as I do not need to carry all my belongings to the buffet car.  I suspect most other passengers would also prefer this.

Mine too. when travelling with children its an inconvenience to go down to the buffet with children. I rarely visit the buffet.
On XC services I often buy from the trolley

I ... avoid ... expressing personal preference on these things too often as I'm just one passenger; in the past when trains were quiet I enjoyed the walk to the buffet car on long distance trains.  These days, fear of loosing my seat and with so much publicity about keeping baggage mean that - as a lone traveller - I don't risk the buffet.  So trolley wins for, alas, reasons that don't thrill me.

And I'll add that I'm not against a high quality trolley service.

I am though against obfuscation and spin and remain unconvinced there was any intention to do things different if the survey result had been different.

That Ben Rule has said that the methodology of the survey is not to be revealed speaks volumes.

Judging by the much greater interest in this question than any of the others, I think that's true!

I appreciate I've missed the boat here. But something doesn't sit well with me on this. When was this trial carried out?

Was this the trial of removing Buffet Cars and having a Trolley in Coach A at the front of the train? I thought this was done as an attempt to decrease journey times by removing the 2nd heaviest vehicle in the consist? But when it made very little difference and/or proved impractical we saw the Buffets come back?

If it really was the case that customers preferred a trolley then why did FGW decide to go with Micro Buffets instead of trolleys?

I don't doubt that this survey was done; however I never got the opportunity to participate. But between January and March 2014 we saw some of the biggest disruption on the network in it's 175 year history if you recall... So was that really a true and fair analysis of the market based on a typical operating period? Many people might have just been glad there was a train running at all...


But if you board the train and sit on it for an hour or 2 and it never passes you then it doesn't matter how fancy it is. Strongly playing devils advocate here. But XC sometimes announce a static trolley in Coach F. So if you make your way to the trolley and ask for a complimentary drink if travelling First Class you won't get one. Because the host will say all the complimentary coffee cups are in Coach A. So the trolley in Coach F is of practically no good to me. Even if it can make a 5* Cafe Latte...

Sorry folks, but some of these responses just dont cut the mustard for me :-X :-\ :-[

*corrected a typo - increase journey times was meant to say decrease journey times. Thank you broadgage for pointing that out :)

Has anyone seen one of these new "more sophisticated trolleys ----that keep things hot, and keep things cool" Or seen a list of what it is proposed to sell from the trolley ?
Or perhaps heard precisely how the hot meal service in standard class is to operate, or has it been dropped.

My crystal ball says that the new trolleys will be broadly similar to the old ones, and the great improvements quoted above have probably already turned into an "aspiration".

I know that this is an old thread, but it is again topical as the new DMUs are about to enter service.

Probably appear all at once once the IEPs are running?

I haven't seen one of the new trolleys or other equipment, but they are going to be using Atlas Carts for the First Class service, which has an improved range of items over the current offering (croissants, sandwiches etc.)

Other information you might be interested in:
1) A planned six month trial of hot food in standard class (no doubt a cynic like you will think that the results of the trial have already been determined).
2) The trolley uses a 'high-tech hot water urn exchange system' which means it can easily and quickly be topped up with hot water on board the train.
3) Several training runs between Bristol Parkway and Slough with staff testing all the procedures, equipment and products on the move including hot food from the steam ovens and the new coffee brewer.
4) A Pullman Working Group has been set up and tasked with looking at how they transfer what they deliver to their Pullman customers today and what they'll be doing on the IET's.  First Pullman on the IET expected to be the morning breakfast train from Paddington to Swansea early next year, with the west country services due to be rolled out Summer 2018.

At the risk of being pedantic - but just to be clear - is that the existing 10:45 Paddington-Swansea Brunch train or are we talking about an additional earlier train serving Breakfast?

It just says 'the Swansea breakfast train from Paddington to Swansea' so I'm unable clarify, Bob.

Two very interesting replies on Facebook linked to the "Ask the Director" session yesterday that we have discussed (here) (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=18712.msg221846#msg221846)



Is it just me - or does that read, twice over, as if there will not be a trolley on Pullman services - it's either a trolley or a pullman service.  Normally I would look at such a suggestion as a slip in wording, but it reads that way twice in very different answers, so I do wonder.

Sounds the me like Julie was just briefed to avoid talk of buffets at all costs, and as a result made some incorrect/confusing statements. 

It does read that way to me too, Graham. Might be worth a follow-up, rather than simply assuming she's wrong. Working out her email address isn't difficult.

She does not specifically say Pullmans will not have a trolley service but she does imply it. It does seem to be duplicating resources to have a trolley and a buffet (or dining car or whatever they want to call it nowadays) on the same train. Having put the kitchen in, they want people to use it rather than buy from the trolley, surely! But I note she can't spell Pullman (or is it that I can't spell Pulman?). Needs checking. Could be there's no decision yet.

I think that it is now admitted that none of the new DMUs destined for GWR have a buffet.

They were specified thus, and then a survey was done to prove that buffets are no longer needed or wanted. The new units DO have a kitchen in the driving vehicle at the first class end.
Members may recall my statements some years ago that the "new trains will not have buffets" such posts were widely criticised with many members stating that I could not make such statements until I had seen one of the new DMUs.

Others stated that they would have buffets, but only for first class. No, they have kitchens and not a buffet.

If the statements by GWR mean what they say, then services WITH a Pullman will have no catering whatsoever for the rest of the train. I fail to see how provision of a Pullman negates the need for any other catering on the same train.

The storage area for the trolley & supplies is probably taken up by the stores required to service the Pullman dining. Also, aren't the trolleys meant to be capable of serving hot food? That has to be prepared somewhere first? IN the kitchen, maybe? The kitchen being used for Pullman Dining?

I reckon if the GWR statements are correct, the Pullman service will have a very short lifespan. After the reduction in 1st class capacity (any many questioning whether it should exist at all), I cannot see the general public or DfT would tolerate certain long distance services having no buffet/shop service to standard class whatsoever when there is a full restaurant (albeit paid for) available to 1st class customers.

However, I suspect that the GWR representative has made a mistake.

Many forum members are frequent travellers. I find it surprising that, apparently, not a single forum member has admitted to having been party to the 'extensive' market research carried out.

Of the thousands that GWR carry, how many do you reckon frequent here to post?

I teckon we represent a very small sub-section of GWR customers, sorry

I would however observe that it is not matter of "CERTAIN long distance services having no buffet/shop service to standard class" NONE of the new trains will have any kind of buffet or shop whatsoever, regardless as to the provision or not of a Pullman. It seems that the DfT approved this in line with the policy of maximising number of seats over all else. I suspect that most of the general public have no idea about this downgrade until they travel on a new DMU.

Only a trolley was to be provided on the new trains. However it now seems that even provision of trolley service is in doubt on those services that have a Pullman.
I agree that the GWR rep MAY have made a mistake, or it might be a way of gently releasing bad news and hoping that no one notices, until it is too late to alter things.

Personally I'd be surprised.  The Pullman services are timed for when people want food and drink, and so
a trolley would expect to do good trade on those trains too and given only a tiny fraction of passengers will be dining I'd have though GWR would be losing money if they didn't.  A badly briefed manager getting mixed up is my guess.

Apologies, I should've typed that as buffet/shop/trolley. I appreciate that there will be no fixed 'asset' in standard class at all, but would be surprised if any of the trains had no provision for selling light food and hot/cold drinks, especially where a Pullman service was present.

I was told about the standard class trolley a while (more than a year) back by an off duty GWR staff member on a train. They said that when they asked about the trolley for the new trains they were told that "yes there will be a trolley don't worry". When they asked a friend at head office where these were coming from the response was that there hadn't been much done about it. Said something like 'there are more important things to worry about [with these trains] than that'. Not sure if anything's changed (and I hope it has) but I won't be holding my breath.

Posters here in any month are in the hundreds of individuals.  Lurkers and readers are much bigger numbers - last month there were just over 9,000 readers (over 96% in the UK).  We were visited from around 31,000 different remote hosts, with an overall response to some 3.3 million requests.

We are indeed a tiny proportion of users.  But - my goodness - it's very hard to get "Joe Public" to take an interest, and we do better than many.  Overall message - don't underestimate the reach w have to lurkers, and to the search engines which send people our way when they have a relevant query.  It was very instructive to run the "live chat" back in August and see just how people are sent to the site and what questions they have.   Also very instructive as to how much resources those things take to answer!

Plenty has been done about it, focus groups, trial runs, equipment selection etc.  See my post on the previous page for more details.

Well we've under two weeks until we know the answer. And I suspect there'll be at least one poster who takes the trouble to try out the trains on the inaugural day (if not the inaugural run) and will be reporting back.

Yeah as I say this was a long while ago and I suspected things would have moved on. I'm hoping that you're correct and they've improved complimentary catering in 1st to compensate for the hard product in these trains. The kitchens certainly look good.

Ben Rule last night at the ACORP Awards....every IET *will* have a trolley (or two on a 10car & I think, 9cars) in Standard! The parking bays for these are unaffected by whether the train is a Pullman. There will also be a 1st class trolley (again, two on a 10car) but when I asked whether that includes Pullmans, he wasn't sure about 5car IETs or whether a member of the Pullman crew would serve the non-diners in the same 1st class area. There would be in the second 1st class section on 10car IETs. They will be higher spec trolleys as discussed previously.

Hopefully, this is now settled

Why would the Pullman service have a short lifespan, the First Class section is roughly the same name as it is in the IET, greater infact in a 10 car set. And I was told 2 years ago by GWR that they even want to expand the service where possible. Why would they want to loose something that brings in money for them?

Same reason first class now has about half the capacity it used to - government and media pressure. Quite rightly, few would tolerate having a full restaurant service on a train with no other opportunity for food/drink in standard class. I thought I had made my point quite clearly in my original post?

As I correctly predicted, the GWR spokesperson who suggested there would be no trolley service on Pullman trains was incorrect, so this is and was a largely academic discussion.

Well the new units are now in use, and only one trolley in a 5+5 trains seems to be a regular feature. If indeed a trolley appears at all.
I presume that the hot food offer in standard class has become an aspiration.
And what about the higher spec trolleys, also dropped I assume.

So for all the high sounding promises and words, we have ended up with outer suburban DMUs, with no buffet, and SOMETIMES a basic trolley broadly similar to that offered on secondary routes and outer suburban services.
So much for so called inter city trains.

I will admit I’ve only travelled on an IET a couple of dozen times but I cannot remember an occasion when a trolley didn’t come through. 

More interesting is I’ve only bought something on around 25% of times.

And whilst it proves nothing I've travelled 3 times on a double set IET and each time there was a trolley in the set I was in.

I've made the one purchase, so beat bobm with a 33.3% purchase to trolley appearance ratio. ;)

Done a fair number of journeys - but mostly quite short so not always seen the trolley.   Did see it on one occasion coem through first, take one look, decide it couldn't get through and turn back.   Mind you, that was a service with just 5 cars available ...

Yes I’d forgotten that.  I was with you!

It's sad to see that despite promises to the contrary by Mr Rule


The trolleys are not more sophisticated and the choice (especially in coffee terms) has been decreased. It will be interesting to see how hot food is done in standard and if they use the same trolleys for that.

I’ll see if I can find out anything more about the hot food situation.  It was certainly very much on the agenda last I heard, but waiting for enough of the new trains to be in operation to make it worthwhile starting.

Yes it seems settled now.
Only one trolley on a 9 car, if that.
Often one trolley on a 5+5, if that.
Trolley often static or hidden in first class, if provided at all.
Higher spec trolleys sunk without trace.
Hot food in cattle class also sunk without trace.

And what has happened now that virtually all the new trains are in use ?
Nothing ! apart from a possible small scale trial.

Remember, the will of the people voted for this.

As I think I said a month or two ago, possibly on another thread?  There was a small scale trial.  It suggested that there would be losses of around £40k per financial period if it was expanded throughout the IET fleet.  I then supported your original argument that any such trial was probably designed to prove that the bare minimum offering was the best way forward from the outset.