Great Western Coffee Shop

Mentioned in passing in a few threads on the forum, First Great Western is to rebrand to 'GWR' in September 2015. Placeholder website is up:

http://www.gwr.com/

This topic opened for discussion about the rebrand. My thoughts on the video at that link will be kept to myself for the moment.  :-\ :-X

I saw this poster at Plymouth last Friday advertising this year's Dartmouth Crab Festival:

(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/DSC_0145_zpsilxboyxy.jpg)

Possibly the first bit of publicity out in the wild featuring the new GWR brand.

Afraid it isn't the first GWR publication I've seen BNM. GWR sponsored the polo on the beach at Newquay in June with all posters using GWR.

I suspected someone would trump my poster!  ;D

"upgrading first class" presumably that is the new trains with only 36 first class seats ?

..and this was at Paddington on the 30th April this year

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/padgwr.jpg)

Given that it is a marketing video I found it OK until 1:06 in at which point  it got far too cheesy for me...

Just my 2c

I know where BNM is coming from - and yes, I agree it is quite misleading.

Oh dear, I must be getting too old for modern brand marketing.  While the voiceover says ^ when Isambard Kingdom Brunel first built our railway^, we see shots on the LMS (a Patriot leaving Euston?) and Southampton Ocean Terminal, neither of which has any connection with Brunel.  At least use some shots on the GWR, or were the producers unaware of how shots can be placed by those watching?

Then we hear ^First Great Western is proud to be re-appointed as custodians of Brunel^s railway^.   Rubbish of course ^ Network Rail is, as FGW is keen to point out when signals go wrong etc.

What is the point of videos like this?

Maybe this thread should be merged with the "irrelevant use of stock items" one...(only joking!)

As previously mentioned, the poster advertising Polo on the Beach was the first GWR publication. I designed a couple of leaflets and deckchair covers for the event.

Technically my GWR First Class Lounge banners were the first in GWR but were considered part of 1st class branding so I'm not sure if that counts.

We are beginning the process of rebranding posters into GWR. Loving the branding so far.  :)

This event at the Tate St.Ives seem to have had GWR as a sponsor since May some time:

A Quality of Light at the Tate St Ives/ Newlyn Art Gallery and other venues (until July 26: sponsors Cable & Wireless, GWR, St Ives harbour-master et al), the first in what is hoped will be a permanent series of Cornish biennials.

Purely aesthetically, I don't like the mixed size of capitals in the GWR logo.

I like the GWR branding and colour scheme. Anything that hides the fact that this is a First Group franchise  :)

Oh, I say: steady on!  :o ::) ;D

Hmm. I don't think First Great Western are actually trying to use mixed size of capital letters - they're apparently trying to fit their new logo into the outline of an ellipse (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellipse#Elements_of_an_ellipse):

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Ellipse_Properties_of_Directrix_and_String_Construction.svg/884px-Ellipse_Properties_of_Directrix_and_String_Construction.svg.png)

(http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=2628;type=avatar)

(With thanks to my learned colleague bignosemac, for my blatant reuse of his latest avatar image).  :-[

In which case it would look a lot better, IMO, if they actually gave it an outline. The colour, though, is a vast improvement on the pink-grey-blue-ish fuzzy First not quite stripes!

Whilst I like the use of green for the power cars, I think the overall effect of a wholly green train is a bit dull. I wonder if they've considered brightening it up a bit by using slightly different livery for the carriages? For my two penn'orth, I was thinking maybe something based on mid-brown (maybe cocoa?) below the waist rail, with perhaps a thick off-white or buttermilk shade stripe between the waist rail and the cantrail.

Just a thought.

Sounds like a good idea Red Squirrel. I'll ponder your suggestion while I drink my creamy hot chocolate.

And here is me thinking that then you'd suggest adding a few gold and white stripes for added nostalgia factor ...

Hmmm ... I think I've seen something like that ...

http://www.fictitiousliveries.co.uk/photo.php?43227_gwg.jpg

A proper GWR engine should of course have a polished copper cap or rim to the chimney, to complement the rest of the livery.

I note that there has since last year been a trademark registered for GWR by First Greater Western Limited.  Does this just refer to the logo or does it refer to any use of the letters GWR in the context of the goods and services listed?  If the latter is the case then could this be an issue for the heritage railways which were once part of the GWR network?

I note that the link above says First Great Western will actually become "Great Western Railway" but this doesn't seem to be trademarked.

Not sure about a copper cap but they will all be getting a couple of metal GWR logos.

I'd like to point out that my decision to change my avatar is in no way an endorsement of the new brand, livery, etc. Merely there as a reminder of the shape of things to come. When the brand goes 'live' I intend to change my avatar back to something more deserving of the letters GWR.

FGW have seriously lost their way in the last few years. Customer satisfaction at the lowest levels since First Group were awarded the combined franchise in 2007. Staff morale at its lowest since 2007 - evidenced by the current spate of, and threats of, industrial action. Even management grades are considering industrial action. Punctuality levels at their worst since 2007, and that's across the franchise, not just in the Thames Valley where some of the blame can be laid at the door of Network Rail. The company's focus has shifted from providing an excellent service to customers to one of maximising revenue. Doing good by shareholders is something that a business is obliged to do, but it can be done without pissing off your customers and staff. And these are customers who, in the main, aren't able to shop elsewhere as their only option is FGW day in day out for their commute.

The ratio of praise versus criticism I've given to FGW in the past 8 years has notably shifted toward the latter. I find it difficult these days to defend their actions (the current industrial dispute is a case in point... strongly on the side of FGW at the start, moving toward the staffs' point of view now.)

I'm therefore edging toward a conclusion that the rebranding is an attempt to move away from 'First Great Western' as it has become something of a toxic brand. But I don't think that's the answer. A lick of paint here and there doesn't fix underlying problems. Especially when it appears that First Group are trying to ride on the coat tails of a truly great railway company with the new name. To me, it's just papering over the cracks and cynical marketing. Something that we've come to expect from FGW. They've been cynically riding on the coat tails of Network Rail with the route modernisation advertising - giving the impression that First Group are spending oodles of money. 

The last time First Group lost its way with the franchise in this part of the world they got rid of the MD and changed the top team. I think it's time Tim O'Toole considered doing the same again. 

Spotted via another forum (not my video): (Video credit- "Dan Warman")


https://www.flickr.com/photos/danwarman1/19736958839/in/photolist-w565eM-w4XJos-w7YKx4-vPWqLb-unJGQB-vjzcJF-vj3MNS-v3yjRV-uQEBLo-tEKSGq-tUCazX-tJgXsv-trPx4n-tACuKV-skwxBi-sZTVzx-th5RUS-t33ozc-sJQr5w-stXCZg-stReZM-stGMv1-sjEM9g-r7bTWo-r7oqoH-r3Jop6-r2or7g-r2oqXP-rWK3Qe-qZcGnm-rWcwcx-qZoTuP-rDGD3p-rDGAsz-rDhLy5-rDgwUm-rCvoJ2-rwQCcT-rwb1td-rMN2Nj-rwzLP8-rf8S4D-r9kpQu-rdTQHo-qWWHrw-qLkHrm-qNWSTy-qkAuwG-pYATpz-qg3fJ8 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/danwarman1/19736958839/in/photolist-w565eM-w4XJos-w7YKx4-vPWqLb-unJGQB-vjzcJF-vj3MNS-v3yjRV-uQEBLo-tEKSGq-tUCazX-tJgXsv-trPx4n-tACuKV-skwxBi-sZTVzx-th5RUS-t33ozc-sJQr5w-stXCZg-stReZM-stGMv1-sjEM9g-r7bTWo-r7oqoH-r3Jop6-r2or7g-r2oqXP-rWK3Qe-qZcGnm-rWcwcx-qZoTuP-rDGD3p-rDGAsz-rDhLy5-rDgwUm-rCvoJ2-rwQCcT-rwb1td-rMN2Nj-rwzLP8-rf8S4D-r9kpQu-rdTQHo-qWWHrw-qLkHrm-qNWSTy-qkAuwG-pYATpz-qg3fJ8)


Looks smart.

So, repainting has begun... Wonder how long it will be before the first of the new 'Sardine midget' sets will be repainted from plain grey/white into the new GWR livery? Or are we likely to see one arrive from Japan ready-painted in the livery before the grey/white sets already delivered have been repained?

I'll be glad to see the back of the bright-pink doors (I think that's the only thing I don't like about the version of 'dynamic lines' applied to the class 180s and IC125s) but I'm not sure I like the sandpaper-strip on the new livery either (the basic green with silver/grey doors looks ok otherwise from what I've seen so far).

I think I'm inclined to agree, although I've no idea whether or not Hopwood really has shifted his focus to money or whether the DfT and/or shareholders have held him to ransom. I certainly do not believe the future plans that have now emerged have the passenger's best interests fully in mind.

There is certainly a beleaguered feeling from FGW at the moment. hard to tell whether they are the source of this or whether they are suffering themselves; maybe a bit of both. Certainly the tools for the job that they have been promised have been a long time coming. 

I've already edged toward concluding that it's a DfT request to have neutral branding - i.e. nothing corporate.

I think both of the above are the reasons why we are seeing a rebranding.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sM7v0ti8D4

Still to be fitted with GWR branding though.

Other than a coat of paint and calling itself GWR, how exactly is FGW working to improve its brand?

To be fair, public perception of the brand and its performance couldn't be much worse, but it would be interesting to know.

it isn't - it's DfT led.

But why just the Greater Western franchise? Other recent franchise awards have had no such condition imposed. Virgin have started emblazoning their logo all over the East Coast rolling stock. Govia Thameslink Railway have multiple brands across their network.

What has been required in the Greater Western franchise is that any brands applied be transferable to future operators if that future operator wants them. Company names can still be used if the operator so wishes.

From the Greater Western Franchise Agreement (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/426295/FGW_Interim_Franchise_Agreement_02.pdf#page=496):


Follow the link for further reading in the Franchise Agreement about branding and successor operators.

It is clear therefore that First Group have chosen not to have any corporate identity with GWR. It hasn't been imposed on them by the DfT. The Franchise Agreement says they can have company names if they so wish. Those companies would be either First Group PLC, or subsidiary First Greater Western Ltd.


It isn't. It's a First Group decision.

My own personal perception is it's not that bad ...but I accept that..

1) I don't currently have to use FGW services on a daily basis
2) I accept there are issues on the infrastructure which aren't down to the TOC's but may affect the travelling public
3) I believe a survey was done not so long ago which rated customer satisfaction across TOCs but don't recall how we fared.
4) I am able to adjust the journeys I take so that I reduce the impact of overcrowding on me but this normally does mean getting up very early!

I may get flamed for this but given the constraints under which FGW currently operate are they really that bad?

NOTE: Having just re-read my post it may not be deemed relevant to this thread but I was replying in context of an earlier post.

Agreed - with the removal of the Network Rail (mostly signalling) issues, FGW would be as reasonable as any other TOC.

I would agree that given the constraints under which they work, that FGW are not that bad.
My concerns are however with the future, I fear that from the passengers point of view that things are getting worse and not better.
Whatever the theoretical advantages that may be claimed, I am not convinced that 5 car DMUs are an improvement on HSTs. Whilst they may run in multiple to give a full length train, the use of short multiple units without gangways means by sods law that the trolley will be in the other unit, as will be the first class host.
Despite claims that a survey shows a preference for a trolley over a buffet, I am not convinced that removing buffets is the great step forward that is claimed. Note that the survey was conducted AFTER the decision had been made to remove buffets, this suggests that the survey was done to justify the decision already taken.
 IIRC, Mark Hopwood has previously stated that DMUs with under floor engines were not suited to inter city routes, so what are we getting ? DMUS with under floor engines !

Despite an attractive looking refurbishment, first class provision has been drastically reduced on the existing fleet, from two and a half vehicles to one and a half.
The new trains have even worse first class provision with only 36 first class seats on the half length units. If two units are run in multiple, presumably first class will be in random locations as on a suburban train.

And as for electrification, I have mixed feelings. I should be in favour of electric traction, apart from other factors oil is going to get more costly as supplies deplete.
Unfortunately the work is hugely over budget and behind in time, where is this money to come from ? After suffering from the failed East coast electrification I fear a repeat, especially when considering the exposed nature of parts of the route.

No amount of re branding can make up for trains that are too short and unsuited to inter city routes.

Blimey, the record's stuck again :-)

Saw this pass through Reading last night while I waited for the 2142 service to Swansea  from Platform 7.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/danwarman1/19735526278/in/photolist-w4XJos-w7YKx4-vPWqLb-unJGQB-vjzcJF-vj3MNS-v3yjRV-uQEBLo-tEKSGq-tUCazX-tJgXsv-trPx4n-tACuKV-skwxBi-sZTVzx-th5RUS-t33ozc-sJQr5w-stXCZg-stReZM-stGMv1-sjEM9g-r7bTWo-r7oqoH-r3Jop6-r2or7g-r2oqXP-rWK3Qe-qZcGnm-rWcwcx-qZoTuP-rDGD3p-rDGAsz-rDhLy5-rDgwUm-rCvoJ2-rwQCcT-rwb1td-rMN2Nj-rwzLP8-rf8S4D-r9kpQu-rdTQHo-qWWHrw-qLkHrm-qNWSTy-qkAuwG-pYATpz-qg3fJ8-pUwDng

Didn't know the 166's had been sent for repainting.

Also got a good look yesterday morning of the work at Hitachi's IEP depot  near Bristol Parkway.

166204?....yep, there's a thread somewhere that's mentioned this already

As a Taunton man, spot the similarities with Buses of Somerset, repainted and rebranded and lost the First corporate name from the brand.
Whilst the repaint looks good, general customers will be thinking of it being a new company with shiny new trains. Thus losing the negative reputation of "First"

More re-skinning, its all done with vinyl wrap nowadays with a little paint 


The class 800 should start to appear at North Pole soon, the final route gauge checks from North Pole to the ECML is being done, last area is the North London Incline into Copenhagen Tunnel which is a tad tight on paper apparently; this so the trains can get their pre service mileage to failure runs in.

Yes, it's the whole First Group that has a bad rep, not just FGW. Whether deserved or not, they do seem to be poorly perceived.

ASUI the Green stock will have a vynal sticker with Operated by First Group or words to that effect. Which can be removed if First lose the franchise.

Some was deserved IMO with regard to First Capital Connect, otherwise known as Thameslink.
This is not a First group franchise anymore.

At the time it was in my opinion by far the worst of any TOC that I used regularly. Delays of hours with thousands trapped below ground in darkness and sweltering heat seemed to be accepted as "just one of those things"
I suspect that the performance of that TOC did substantial harm to the reputation of First Group as a whole.

When it was announced that First group had won the West Coast franchise, this was greeted with disgust by many, especially by those who had experienced Thameslink.
Some people no doubt expected that trains to Scotland would as a result be formed of 4 car class 319s !

As well as the rebranding of trains FGW have also started rebranding stations.
A lot of Didcot Parkway station has been repainted in recent weeks into a dark green, although there are still some pieces of station furniture in FGW pink/purple.

Actually, haven't some 166s (or was it 165s) recently been refurbished, gaining new accessible toilets and, at the same time, a new plain blue with pink doors livery? If I recall correctly (and in this case I'm not sure I do) somebody suggested the dynamic lines livery on the 166/165 fleet was a vinyl wrap but the plain blue and pink doors is paint. If so, are the dynamic lines Turbos actually still carrying the white-based First Great Western Link livery underneath the vinyl, in which case it would explain the current repaint.

He did*, hence my earlier comment agreeing that priorities have shifted away from acting in the best interests of passengers.

* it was actually only the PAD-Penzance route, not the GW IC fleet as a whole, so it really only relates to the fact AT300 is First's 'prefered option' for that route. Here's a quote (Modern Railways, August 2011):
At the time of the article, the length of the 'electric' IEP sets had not yet been determined (I wonder who specified that all bi-modes would be 5-car???) and In the event, of course, all the 'electric' sets were specified as 9-car sets, but the lack of longer units in the bi-mode fleet concerns me greatly (sure, a few 5-car sets would be useful for evenings and the odd off-peak service on quieter routes but not having any 8/9-car units bi-modes at all in the IEP fleet (and not many in the proposed AT300 order either) is very worrying.

... and replaced with BR crown and Lion roundels, well suited to the retro EMU green.

Trojan moquette seat coverings would complete the re-brand.

Can't wait.

OTC

Quite so, ChrisB.  ;)

I've therefore moved and merged both topics here, for clarity and continuity.

Yes there have been a handful going round with a darker blue finish on them, this does seem strange if they are now all being done in green

If you read the remaining paras, the penalties for reinstatement to the new operator (should they lose the franchise) are incredibly steep - maybe a First decision, but DfT controlled. Such a cost after just 7 years....

... and replaced with BR crown and Lion roundels, well suited to the retro EMU green.

Trojan moquette seat coverings would complete the re-brand.

Can't wait.

OTC

Why not go the whole hog and add silver handles for heating (Low-high) sepia photos  by Francis Frith above the seats, string netting for luggage racks and dim to bright toggle buttons for carriage lighting ? And special bouncy seats to create an impenetrable dust cloud ....

I certainly have been in one of the dark blue turbos where the "old" first class saloon converted to standard at one end had FC antimacassars in. I cannot recall being in one with dynamic lines livery that had that. Were the seats changed too in the makeover?

The gap between the accessible toilet and the remaining seat looks quite narrow too. I wonder if a wheelchair user in the wrong part of the train would be able to get past.

Almost certainly not - the refreshment trolley couldn't!  I doubt the wheelchair would fit in-between the 2+3 seating to even get that far though.

57605 has finally returned from Derby in GWR green and worked the down sleeper last night. I think that's now 1 loco and 3 coaches now in green for the sleeper stock.

Do you think I didn't read those paragraphs?

Exactly what penalties are there for First Group peeling off their 'Operated By' vinyls and the green livery vinyl near the end of the franchise?

You stated that a neutral livery was DfT mandated. That is not the case.

Non commercial I also said....

And others read this thread, as well as you. They might not be bothering to read everything you link to.

The recently retendered East Coast and TSGN franchises have the exact same 'Branding' clauses in the Franchise Agreements.

Operators are free to brand and livery how they choose. Corporate, non corporate, trade marked, non trade marked. There are no penalties for doing so. Reasonable costs can be agreed with a successor operator for removal. Or, more likely, an existing operator will remove anything not wanted by the successor before handover.

The overall green being used by First Group for GWR is their choice and has not been mandated by DfT. Nor has it been mandated that First Group mustn't emblazoning the stock with corporate branding.

I'll say it again. GWR and Green is First Group's decision entirely. Sod all DfT diktat.

Spotted at Swindon today ...

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/bristolgreen.jpg)

Was that the 1641 to Swansea? I also spotted it from my train heading in the opposite direction, the 1642 to Paddington.

EDIT: It occurs to me that the livery is adorning a not particularly 'green' form of rail traction. Similar to all the diesel buses running around Bristol at the moment proudly advertising 'Bristol 2015 - European Green Capital'.  ::)

Won't be long before we see the first full set of Mk3s in the new livery out in passenger service. The following picture shows a complete set of GWR green Mk3s making their way from Kilmarnock to Laira in Plymouth:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/britishrail1980sand1990s/19471203293/in/photolist-vEB1nB-wBTivR-wARc6v

A video of the set:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHG1dwwfgFc

It's a full 8 coaches, minus any GWR branding or 1st Class markings. One lonely Dynamic Lines coach in the consist too. The Mark 2s in the consist are barrier vehicles.

I note that the catering vehicle is a full size kitchen. The sooner that's back on the Pullman circuit the better.  :P ;) ;D

Really do not like the silver, looks really tacky. A nice cream would have contrasted the green really well IMO.

They have also repainted a MK3 first class coach, not been spotted however.

You might be interested in this...
https://www.flickr.com/groups/gwr_railway/
and this...
https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/-/media/pdf/aboutus/ourbusiness/stakeholders%20report/nfgwf.pdf

On the approach to Paddington yesterday morning I notice one of the coaches of the sleeper set, which was parked at Old Oak Common (as is normal) was in the new green. i like it - but agree it looks fairly simple/bland

Thanks for posting, TransportFan28 - and a warm welcome to the Coffee Shop forum!  :D

Seems even the hoardings at Paddington have been rebranded!

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/gwrpad.jpg)

Will they be applying logos nearer / at the time of the rebrand?

Vinyls and branding is being applied in house at FGW.

Only sets that need a paint will get the Green

One HST set has been completed in GWR both externally and internally and will feature in the launch ceremony. Another set is being done but this will just be a paint job.

Not all staff will receive the uniform by September, some may be as late as February.

No staff will receive their uniform in September. They'll all get them in the new year. On the job trials are currently taking place to make sure it suits everyone's needs.

166 204 at Reading earlier today waiting to depart for Redhill on P6

I suppose the Southern platforms at Reading were used to green coloured stock !  :)

Meanwhile the green HST coaches were berthed in two roads at Laira this lunchtime.

Really - the old Reading South Station might have been, and also in Southern Region Green the same station when it was renamed Reading Southern, but was even the former platform 4a at Reading General ever used by green stock?

Yes!  :)

http://www.semgonline.com/gallery/2bil_01.html (http://www.semgonline.com/gallery/2bil_01.html)

(http://www.semgonline.com/gallery/pics/rs_2104.jpg)

Two members of staff at Weston-Super-Mare station have GWR ID badges.

The launch will be on the 21st and one fully refurbished and one just repainted.

An auntie of mine posted a pic of herself in a rebranded GWR first class carriage this morning!

I'll check with her if I can post it later for you!

Had one rebranded coach at Twyford on Wednesday but just seemed to annoy people going by the reactions of commuters stood next to me. I suspect many are still remembering last weeks delays and probably not in the mood for rebranding.

I think the 2 tone (matte and gloss) green livery on the Turbo is smart - while it's new and clean.  How it wears with time and the potential lack of exterior maintenance we shall have to see.  It would seem that there is further work to be done in terms of the application of branding and first class marking.  As a matter of (not much) interest, is the upholstery still blue and the seats grey with pink handles?  If so, green, blue, grey and pink is an "interesting" combination.

UPDATE.  I travelled on it this morning and can answer my own question.  At the moment, the interior is still the same.

Did you notice if the standard class end by one of the cabs had first class antimacassars in? I think there are still some units floating around with this issue. I meant to look when I was on 166204 the other day.

I was in the middle of the train, and didn't notice the first class interior.

The 165s are having their 1st class converted to Standard - "being given over to Standard" as GWR/FGW puts it in a note to the Customer Panel overnight. As of 7th September. The 166s are retaining one 1st class area as now.

The 166s are being consigned to the faster longer journeys - Oxfords/North Cotswolds (except the stoppers)/Gatwick & Newbury's/Bedwyn's with the 165's consigned to the inner Thames Valley & branches. Some semi-fasts will also be 166s. Timetables are being issued to show which journeys are which stock by using the '1' at the top of columns to denote 1st class availability - no '1' will mean a 165.

Some Oxford late-night services will also be 165s owing to lack of servicing facilities at Oxford.

FGW are contacting 1st class season holders on affected routes to arrange refunds/exchanges to Standard.

1st Class fares on affected routes are being removed to avoid purchase & no seating being available.

Thanks for the update Chris. Sort of going down the Chiltern railway route by removing First class from their 165 fleet. At least they will then be ready when they head West to operate services in the Bristol area.

With the fitting of the accessible toilet which removes some seats, doing this replaces those lost too.

As I have remarked before, these routes prior to the 165/166s were in general operated by single class accommodation - indeed right back to when that was called third class let alone second. The only exceptions tended to be in the peaks which may have been availability or revenue driven.

FGW (and for that matter TT) have always been poor in diagramming 165/166 only onto appropriate routes treating them very much as interchangeable. I suspect there may still be operational reasons to run the 'wrong' type.

Does that mean just the Reading (+Branches) Paddington trains will be standard only and the Oxford stoppers still 166's? Or is it just the peak semi-fasts and thereafter, pot-luck? I await my letter.

I suspect it is also to harmonise with the forthcoming Crossrail service.

I'm not a first class traveler but don't begrudge those who are but from my experience the first class areas on the 165/166 services don't really offer much on the B&H line as there a very few ticket checks and from observation they are used by a large number of standard class ticket holders. The other effect is that it also removes a preferred area where the TMs can sit when they are present on those services but not dealing with the travelling public.

An interesting entry on RTT looking as far into the future as I can (16 November). The first down service of the day between Reading and Didcot is 2L36 RDG-BAN.  RTT observes the following:

Interested to see how that pans out using the same train ...

I also noted that most of the Class 2 Oxfords are "Standard Only" and the peak time semi-fasts "First and Standard".

My understanding is "some" semi-fasts and all fasts will be 166s from Oxford. The stoppers are 165s.


I wouldn't be surprised, agreed.


hmmm, there will be trolley services on the longer distance 166s.


166 unit attached at Oxford? The first service from BAN is a 6car unit currently, but I believe going to a 5car....so 2car 165 + 3car 166?


The Class 1 services (longer distance) should be 166s and any class 2s will be 165s

All Banbury stoppers are 3 car. Short platforms beyond Oxford. Hence my query. 

Non so, sorry.

The 0607 has the rear three locked out - but it's a 6car. All doors unlocked at DID, I believe.

Chris. I think we are referring to different trains 2L36 departs Reading at 0557 and is a 3 car service. I know because it is my usual train. What happens at Oxford I must plead ignorance but every down Banbury that I see between Reading and Didcot is alway a 3 car service

Obviously a mistake somewhere seeing as the following diagram 1P25 07:28 from Banbury is back to standard only as far as Oxford then back once again to first & standard from Oxford

Certainly sounds like an error.  And, as now, 165 and 166 diagrams will remain pretty much interchangeable, despite endeavours to keep them separate as far as practically possible, as the demands on the stock are so high and set swaps are common for all manner of things.

To clarify the Banbury diagrams, on weekdays there's one morning and one evening train that goes to Banbury as more than 3-cars, the 05:18 is a 6-car, and the 19:17 which is a 4-car.  In both cases the rear set is locked out of use, before being unlocked and the other portion locked at Banbury for the return journey to Paddington - the locked portion then being unlocked at Didcot Parkway.

However BB I disagree.  The favoured spot of seclusion is the rear driving cab in which RP lurks until the down train has departed Tilehurst, after which all of his 'customers' have departed. It appears that the rear cab will be the only first class accommodation left on my local services; I must remember my BR1 !!  ;D Only kidding! Honest.

Talking of morning services - the 0738 from Goring (to Paddington) is currently a 3 car DMU. It was listed in one of the upcoming updates to change to a 5-car from 7th September. Can anyone (II?) tell me if its remaining a 165/166 or is it changing back to the hideous 180 it was for a while a couple years ago ? Thanks in advance anyone!

I believe this to still be a turbo, this train along with a handful of others are having a 1 or 2 coach increase as a result of an HST or two replacing other turbo diagrams. This includes the 08:09 Paddington to Reading semi fast being replaced by an HST which then forms a new 09:15 to Paddington stopping at Maidenhead only

Whilst waiting at Reading yesterday for my local connection I was acquainted with the new green turbo and discovered it was all standard class.  I take it that first class refunds are in order when it is singularly diagrammed on a multi-class service. 

It is the stealth through which this process is progressing that ticks me off.  First a massive reduction of capacity on the high speed services - including my favourite quiet coach - and now its almost total removal on the locals. And the first class premium is still 110% over the standard rate! If these were regulated fares I think they would be forced to reflect the decreasing levels of service.

As the turbos are heading West to operate local services radiating from Bristol in the next couple of years, I guess it makes sense to remove 1st Class when each unit goes off for refresh.

Does mean there's a short interim in the Thames Valley where units may be standard only until introduction of EMUs.

And yes, a refund of the difference between 1st and Standard fares is due if advertised 1st Class accommodation is not available. As per Condition 38 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

Good news for Maidenhead passengers having a new 09:27 fast HST to London in the morning (the 09:15ex Reading mentioned above), though as it's after commuting time but too early for an off-peak return I wonder how many people will use it?  A day return to London on the 09:27 arriving 09:52 will be ^21.30, but travel eight minutes earlier on the 09:19 arriving at 10:04 and it's much less at ^11.40.  It also has no connection from Marlow/Bourne End.  Perhaps a train that will fall between two stalls unless an off-peak easement is introduced?

Buy your CDR from Furze Platt (^11.40) and take advantage of an existing easement which allows departure from Furze Platt after 0840. Start short at Maidenhead.  ;)

The removal of 1st is a good move IMHO. It was simply a cause of conflict on the LTV services, and with DOO was rarely if ever enforced. I presume though that 1st fares will still be available from Slough/Maidenhead/Twyford as there are still some HSTs serving these stations. Is the 1st area being totally removed on 165s (new seating, matching the opposite end) or will it be more like the 166s (no antimicassars, door held open)?

If a 166 turns up on a 165 diagram, I take it that 1st is automatically declassified? 

Sorry, the document wasn't detailed enough to answer that Q.


If there's still a 1st class fare after 6th September, I wouldn't bank on that at all. While a refund is certainly due if a 165 turns up on a 166 diagram & you hold a 1st class ticket, I think you could get a penalty fare sitting in 1st without a 1st ticket, assuming the fare continues.
[/quote]

The normal routine on other TOCs is that if the service is shown in the public timetable as not having first class, then the first class section of any train or unit that turns up with it is declassified for that service.

Paul

Correct, *if* there's no 1st class fare for that journey too

MODS- is there a possibility that this thread is merging with the "First Class Changes" thread elsewhere on the forum?

Although this isn't codified anywhere officially. Recently a FGW TM was apparently charging upgrades on the Weymouth Wizard HST and I'm aware of a saga on Greater Anglia where Class 170s were being used between Norwich and Sheringham and passengers were being charged an upgrade to sit in 1st Class. In the FGW case customer services confirmed upgrades should not be charged. In the Greater Anglia case customer services said they should be paid - with GA TMs using the Weekend 1st option on their Avantix every day!

Not sure about that.   SWT have a couple of specific declassified services on the 'Salisbury 6' one each way in the weekday peaks.   Same trains as usual, and first class fares remain available, but if you bought one and travelled on those particular trains you would have wasted your money.

As shown within, the only difference is the missing '1' at the column head:  http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/uploads/ptt25may2015.pdf

Paul

Paul, An interesting observation.

It occurs only M-F in the middle of the morning and evening peaks.  Seems like they choose to increase capacity (reported availability of standard class seats [for the DfT perhaps]) by the simple expediency of declassifying those two trains.

The staff brief on the changes confirms that if a 166 turns up on a service advertised as Standard Class only in the timetable then First Class is declassified.

St James Park is currently being repainted to GWR green.

How is the First Class section of a 166 (or 165 for that matter) declassified, or rather how is the declassification communicated, if there are no staff on board other than the driver? Does the driver have to announce at every stop that he's arrived with a faux first class section?

Nick, you are forgetting the stealth aspect of this new service. No announcement will be made, either on the train or at stations - just like the announcement made to me in January before I bought my annual season ticket. To the public in general (sorry, customer) the [1] will simply disappear from the published timetables - a bit like the SWT example illustrated by Paul.

Nothing in that respect mentioned in the retail brief the Panels were sent - so good to hear.

Confusion may reign where a 166/165 combine to form a service though - the brief says it *will* be advertised as a 1st class offering, but the 165 1st section is "given over" to Standard....so you can sit in the 165 1st section but not in the 166 1st section....

Let's be honest, 1st class in a Turbo is hardly worth it anyway?

It's hardly ever enforced and you get so little for the extra fare that no-one's really going to miss it.

What concerns me more is the huge hike/less availability in Advance 1st fares for long distance travel on FGW since the reduction in 1st class on the HSTs.

What's good for the goose...!  As you would no doubt say, in a slightly belittling tone, 'Hmmm...'   ::)

Yep we've already seen that happen. From my local station 1st Advance fares to London start at ^59 up from ^32.

The trolley services will feed you hot drinks/water...:-)


hmmm, touch^! Sir :-)

Thanks for this.  Hope St Thomas is next.

Oh the irony. The first station to get the treatment too. Our Grecian friends will not be happy

Trowbridge, I understand

I guess Chippenham won't be repainted any time soon seeing as it is still sporting Great Western Trains (GWT) green!

I gather there are some stations - Exeter St David's is one - where FGW purple colours were painted up to a certain level but the existing green remained above as FGW's ownership only went up so far and NR owned the rest.

As noted previously:
 
St James Park certainly wasn't the first as Didcot parkway was painted green a few weeks ago.

hmmmmm......trolley on a Turbo service? Never seen one!  ;)

That's what they're telling us/staff....from September

Is my memory playing tricks or haven't there been trolleys on the Reading-Gatwick turbos before now?

Yes, bobm - and I believe the number of trolley's on the Gatwick route has recently been increased.  There's usually a trolley on the Saturday services down the Cotswold Line (to and from Paddington) that are operated by a Turbo as well.

You never forget a trolley in the knee! As I recall it, all the Gatwicks had trolleys around 1992 when the turbos appeared on the North Downs. The stoppers didn't.

Can't remember when they all disappeared though, maybe some stage during Thames Trains' tenure.

Apparently the new footbridge in Goring is to be painted ... blue. So I am sure it will be repainted green at a later date ?!

There were trollies on the Gatwicks until at least 2007/2008.

There seem to be two different Trolley operations in the Oxford area.  From what I can tell, those on Class 165/166 Turbos are provided by RailGourmet of Oxford, by staff wearing FGW uniforms. I cannot see from the on-line timetable that any catering is currently provided on the Gatwick service from Reading, but, if it is, then I assume that it is still provided by them as well.

Trolleys on Class 180s are, I understand, provided by FGW's own staff.

As I typed my reply, I wondered if Plymothian was having a Green Army laugh but it appears that St James Park is indeed first in the far South West. 

Look at it a different way - A LSWR/SR station being repainted green (OK not quite Malachite Green) - All ex GWR stations being painted Green - (Not Chocolate and Cream).  A GWR name with a LSWR colour - compromise?

 Perhaps the green paint was cheaper !

Did the GWR actually have any Chocolate & Cream stations? BR Western Region did, but the GWR?

Good point apparently not the colours scheme was more brown than that (i.e. a brownie cream and a light tan colour) as at Birmingham Moor Street and Kidderminster Town. 

Take it from me, us Janners always have a laugh at St James Park  ;)

Perhaps rather late in the day, it has struck me how the TOC rebranding and new colour seems to be have a similar colour element to the TransWilts branding / base colour which we have been using from the early days of the CRP:

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/twr.jpg)

More examples of the new poster branding can be found on the engineering notices on the FGW website for dates after 19th September.

Forgive me probably being a little thick, but I was under the impression that as stock was delivered to Kilmarnock for refurbishing, it was to be outshopped in GWR green - or is that still a little way off?

The latest HST set to be returned to Laira this morning from Kilmarnock is still very much First blue in colour (some with and some without transfers) - as per the attached.

Earlier in this thread I mentioned the odd services where SWT de-classify first, and tonight I used one from Portsmouth to Fareham.  It used to be one of those odd 2 car 158 'peak extras', but since May it has been a 450 operated service.   Anyway the message about declassification was just added after the usual announcement of the calling pattern as the train approached:  "Please note, first class accommodation on this service is declassified and may be used by all passengers".

So it can be easily dealt with by the automatic systems.

Paul

Rumour has it Kilmarnock ordered enough blue paint to finish the overhaul/life extension work on the HST trailers and that no one was prepared to sign off the disposal costs of the blue paint and order green, only rumour.
(The trains have to be painted regardless as this is part of the leasing agreement with the ROSCO)

Will they be painting the doors on the rebranded trains or leaving them with just the grey primer?   ;)

Please forgive me for also probably being a little thick, but why are there two extra coaches, one at each end of that set of HST carriages?  :-[

'Barrier vehicles' (although this is the common term, they are more correctly, 'translator vehicles'). Used when there are incompatible couplers between hauling locomotive and hauled rake. Old rolling stock is fitted with a loco compatible coupler at one end and a rake compatible coupler at t'other.

In this case old Mk2s are being used. Sometimes it'll be freight wagons. One at each end for any reversals or recovery end route.

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=5652.0

Many thanks for reminding me of that November 2009 topic, bignosemac: I rather vaguely thought I'd read something about it here before.  ;)

Timeshift on BBC Four tonight - preview clip showing glimpse of new first class interior:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p030z2l9

Looks promising.  Thank you for highlighting it, and a very warm welcome to the forum.

Already posted on Tuesday.....

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=16158.0

I'll be watching at 9 p.m. tonight if still awake ... and may I add my welcome, Rob on the Hill.

Sometimes things do get posted multiple times ... and whilst we try to avoid duplication, I don't think any of the moderator / admin team is too bothered by the occasional repeat.   After all - the BBC sets us an excellent example as I understand it's going to repeat this program tomorrow too  ;D

As per my post - very early at 0300

Thanks for the warm welcome, and thanks for creating this great forum!
On topic of rebranding - here's a newly repainted power car:
https://twitter.com/RVEL_Derby/status/638975708098916352

This comment has been deleted.

It would help if the photos didn't look as if they're being viewed through cataracts.

It would appear they are photos of a computer screen. Has permission been sought to reproduce?

This Comment has been deleted.

It's interesting to see the description at Flickr "FGW Night Riviera new style Sleeper berth . sneak shot of inside. due july 2015".

The poor quality (for whatever reason) of the images, and the use of the word "sneak", has me wondering as to how these pictures were obtained / whether the chap who put them onto Flickr could be in violation of some embargo or contract if he's involved in the work.   

People are responsible for what they post here, so in the first instance TransportFan28 takes responsibility for the consequences of his post. I appreciate that doesn't contain the actual pictures, yet it does strike me - if the pictures are indeed illicit in some way - as being rather like copying a film to someone and saying it's OK because it's a second generation copy and you have the permission of the person who originally, illegally copied it.  I suppose I would be very much happier if assured that First Great Western are happy with the links to the pictures appearing.

Because ... whist people posting are responsible in the first instance, in the second instance and having been alerted, some responsibility can fall on the operators of the hosting site.

Assurances would be welcome; further expressions of concern, especially from those who are involved with the rebrand and in the absence of substantiated assurances, will encourage me to put my moderator's gloves on and remove the links.

Sources indicates that if that there is considerable doubt as to how and indeed what these pictures are and how they were obtained. And so as a precautionary measure until we learn their good pedigree, I have obfuscated the links.

As a further follow up on the images, considerable doubt remained as to their source and legitimacy for publication, though we do appreciate that the links were posted here in good faith.  Bearing in mind our doubt, we double-checked back with FGW who confirmed doubts as to whether some of them could have been properly obtained.  In light of this, TranportFan28 has deleted the links in his post above - thank you.  It leaves a bit of an odd gap in the thread where were talking about something invisible, but I am adding this note to help archivists of the future.

As a general comment, no problem with views / comments / pictures which may be negative / critical / not "official" - where a line might have been crossed on the various copyright and trade mark type issues, I have to step in to firstly help members protect themselves from sleepwalking into trouble, and secondly to avoid that trouble transferring to me too once I'm aware of an issue.  But it is oh - so - easy to make a mistake in this arena (I have done it) and usually no reflection on member(s) we come back to with requests for clarification or change.

.......I am sure that we will all sleep much more soundly in our beds tonight, in the knowledge that the dire threat to national security represented by a grainy photo of a chair in a railway carriage has been removed.....I hear that MI5s elite squads have been stood down for the day............. ::)

I am not sure from your final smiley whether that comment was made in jest or not.  However just to be clear while no one suggested it is a matter of national security, it *is* a concern for the owners of forums (fora?) when copyright issues are raised as ultimately the buck stops there.  In addition, in this case, we had to take into account the person who took the photos - who was not the person who posted the links.  Most employers have a "social media" clause in their contracts and FGW is no exception - indeed they have taken action against at least one member of their staff in the recent past.  Having checked with FGW that the photos were not authorised and on the balance of probability taken in breach of the person's terms of employment we had to protect them too.  Having communicated with the poster of the links he was also keen to avoid any issues and removed them.

To some it may seem like a storm in a teacup - but it is a very real issue which the moderator/admin team have to be aware of all the time.

You can be sure that once photos appear in the public domain from legitimate sources they will find their way here - and be welcomed.

The pdf pages of Planned Changes/Engineering Work are using the new GWR style from Saturday 19 September 2015:
https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/-/media/pdf/ticketsandtraintimes/traintimes/plannedchanges/2015%20-%202016/week%2026%20saturday%2019%20september%202015%20to%20friday%2025%20september%202015.pdf?la=en

Here's the page that is linked from for info (in case the long link above breaks/breaks):
https://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/train-times-and-tickets/train-times/planned-changes

5z40 tomorrow 0920 from Long Rock is planned to be a 57 with full rake of green GWR sleeper carriages.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/V18897/2015/09/12/advanced

Interesting.  I am booked on the sleeper from Plymouth on Sunday night.  I wonder what will be left in the West Country to form it!

I also note, according to RTT, 5Z40 arrives in platform 1 at 15:14 on Saturday, followed into the same platform just over 15 minutes later by the 12:28 from Swansea.  Could be a bit crowded!

Appears to run back to Laira a couple of hours later
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/V18900/2015/09/12/advanced

Some kind of test-run or for publicity purposes..?

Publicity purposes.  I believe it's the first fully refurbished sleeper set.

Note: user.videocloud.com/54f871d6d8412/video205410/mp4_sd.mp4
Good screenshot I got too https://www.flickr.com/photos/privicy_of_charlie/21142492999/in/dateposted/

3D Silver? That'll catch nicely in any carriage washer!

Lol!  ::) ::)

Blue is the new Green  >:(

A major disappointment!

Maybe a phoney to fool everyone? :-)

Popped down to THA to see it pass through (having left the house just prior to PhilWakely's post).

Interesting to see a full sleeper rake pass through in the middle of the day, but that was all that was interesting about it.

The 57 at the front looked very smart though!

Yes, a quick mile jog for me and my boy to RDW....to see some normal blue coaches, but as TC says, the 57 did look smart

Probably because it was moving (FGW's 57s have a habit of not doing so) and was in the excellent DRS livery.

The down version later could be the green ones then? They are moving the coaches to have all green in one rake and blue in the other. I was lead to believe it was so the all green rake are in London next weekend which would need the blue rake in Penzance for tomorrows up and green rake on the down tomorrow.

That was a bit disappointing, I shall have words with my source!!

5Z69 Paddington to Laira is now on the move with a sleeper set with 57602
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/V18900/2015/09/12/advanced

Just for the record, Sunday's up sleeper starts from Plymouth because of engineering work in Cornwall.

Will painting it a different colour make it reliable?

Should do.  The 57 that's been repainted has had a lot of other work carried out on it

Just saw the return sleeper on Dawlish Beach webcam - blue FGW 57 hauling a mixture of blue and green coaches.

They were still a mixture when they went through Teignmouth a few minutes later.  ;D

and going back in time, I was stopped by the level crossing barriers at EXD just as the Sleeper passed. From what I could see, just 3 coaches out of 8 in the rake were green (1,3 and 4)

There are already 4-5 green sleeper coaches (mix of day and beds) down at long rock so a full rake of green is in the south west with a bit of rearranging,

https://www.flickr.com/photos/danwarman1/20731639844/in/photostream/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/danwarman1/21188961118/in/photostream/

As I detrained yesterday at Temple Meads, a woman followed me into the lift, who I at first took for airline cabin crew, complete with the doubled-up pull-along bag. I was just wondering what airline she worked for and why she was still in uniform when I noticed a little GWR badge on her jacket.

Here's a video of Saturday's sleeper move (5Z69). Note the GWR logo on one of the green coaches.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42xYTJUmr-c&feature=youtu.be

Here is the detail from one of the coaches as it waited to leave as part of last night's up sleeper at Plymouth.

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/gwrslep.jpg)

A bilingual livery on a train in the UK that doesn't serve Wales, and isn't a ScotRail service :o Have we been invaded? Unlike ScotRail, I don't think the Caledonian Sleeper has a bilingual livery, so why does the Night Riviera?

I'm not bilingual myself, but I do recognise the Welsh word 'Nos' (which I believe translates as 'night').

Think of the destination, and connection to Wales, and you won't be far out with the language.

It's not Welsh, but Cornish. There seems an obsession in Cornwall to put everything in Cornish and English, yet I believe less than 1000 people can read or speak the language.

It's Cornish.

Proper job.

Surely you mean " ewn soodh"

You can now register at the new GWR website:

http://www.gwr.com/sign-up

Thanks BNM - I have registered but have to admit I am curious about the lower age requirement of 18 years...

Hmmm. As its simly a rebrand, there is no data protection requirement to re-sign...I would expect to have my details under fgw transferred to the gwr database

Agreed - but it is a good opportunity to clean the database and weed out those who no longer need/want the information.

Who knows that you're not just signing up for the existing FGW mailing list?

(Note: it does not check for duplicates in the databases as I signed up twice with the same details)

Luddite.  :o ::) ;D

As part of the rebrand the excellent Twitter service moves to @GWRHelp from Monday.

Reading some of the tweets they get I think they should have added an exclamation mark to that twitter handle. GWRHelp!

Received in my inbox earlier:

Subject: The renaissance of rail starts here

Body of email:

Dear "Unclassified" Field

 ???

I had exactly the same.

Signing up twice clearly had some positive effect, as I'm not named "Unclassified Field"...

We do have a Mr Field who posts here - it must have got confused.   It knows me ..


and

Mine was addressed to Dear Mr Justin.  ::)

Apparrently GWR has already become.

Goes When Ready

Goes Wrong Regularly

I am not surprised. I regularly (well I think its me) get letters from FGW (not had anything from GWR yet) addressed to:

Mr Sally Edwards.

My name is Eric Edwards
My partner is Sally Swift*

We have never been married. I get a season ticket, so assume thats where they have my details from. She only travels by train occasionally and has never had a season ticket, so no idea where they got her details from.

Some how they managed to not only muddle our surnames, but also have her down as a Mr. Or is it me down with a female name, never worked out which....

* Names changed to protect the innocent  ;D


Edit: Oh and my GWR email ended up in my (well Googles') SPAM folder ::)

Saw this last night at Slough.
They've even started re-branding the man-hole covers. ;D
Good stuff

Somewhat against the trend here, but my GWR email was correctly addressed.

I've yet to get mine...

Come across a third based on God's Wonderful Railway.

God's Worst Railway.

Mine was also correctly addressed.

Maybe we need a poll  ;D

I used to get similar mailshots from Tom Champagne at Readers Digest (yes, it was his real name!):

"Dear Mr Now!

Be the envy of all your friends in No Fixed Abode..."

Readers' Digest sent one such letter to the library I used to frequent at university. "Dear Mr Faculty-Library..."

You are not Jeremy Corbyn in disguise are you?  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/11867182/Why-Jeremy-Corbyn-and-I-both-love-coal-plates-and-drain-covers.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/11867182/Why-Jeremy-Corbyn-and-I-both-love-coal-plates-and-drain-covers.html)

I get letters from Vodafone addressed to Mr Anonymous!

Rebranding article from Swindon Link. Transwilts gets a mention too.
http://swindonlink.com/2015/09/first-great-western-to-be-renamed-great-western-railway-gwr/

166205 is now fully refurbished in the new livery . Link on the next post.

https://m.flickr.com/#/photos/dougieb1971/21522196451/in/favorites-privicy_of_charlie/

I passed the sleeper heading east at Liskeard about 1700 today top and tailed by 57s.

I thought the new green livery looked very drab even on a sunny day. Is that just me? I admit it was only a fleeting look.

Its running up to Laira, starts from Plymouth tomorrow due to maintenance in Cornwall

Hopefully this will be sorted pretty quickly, but the redirect from the old FGW site to the new GWR.com one is failing because it is being pointed to https:// and not http:// - for those lost, here it is www.gwr.com (http://www.gwr.com)

I've just tried the old site and it redirects correctly so hopefully it's sorted but ta for the heads up bobm

Those of us with nothing better to do (!) have noticed changes going on almost minute by minute in the last few hours.

There is now an update to the iPhone app available.

I have been reliably (??) informed that this.....5Z20 1420 Laira T.& R.S.M.D. to London Paddington (http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/V93040/2015/09/20/advanced) today is a 'fully refurbished and repainted' GWR HST

Coming up for tomorrow morning's launch....

Official press release thread (to keep "summary" stuff for newcomers clear of major ongoing thread):
 http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=16253.0

Thread for members to report any issues with the Coffee Shop as FGW changes to GWR underneath us:
 http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=16254.0

Good Morning.

It's a brand new era for rail travel in the west.

If anyone finds pictures of the new train interiors can you please share it with me?

Thanks

As long as you din't nick the photos for your own blog & just link to them....

What has happened to http://www.journeycheck.com/firstgreatwestern?  Has this been swept away as part of the rebranding?

I remember reading a post by someone (possibly on a different topic but I am unable to find it now) that the 07:00 or 07:06 from PAD would be the unveiling of the GWR brand. Now I notice that tonights up sleeper appears to be using P3 at Pad in the morning (rather than the normal P1) with the 07:06 to Penzance using P2 as normal, does this mean both green sets will be on the same pair of platforms at the same time for a period tomorrow.

On a side note, possibly to do with the re-branding or for some other reason altogether the 06:24 from Bristol usually forms the 07:15 to Cardiff whilst the 07:00 to Bristol comes from old oak, however in the morning this appears to have swapped round with the service from Bristol heading back to Bristol using P1 at the same time the sleeper and 07:06 to Penzance are occupying P2/3

Try

https://www.journeycheck.com/greatwesternrailway/

It's been a fun morning!   Most old URLs are linked on to new, but a few haven't quite made it.  In this case, JourneyCheck is probably a third party ... and perhaps a "forward" wasn't included in the contract?

Along with the sleeper and an HST side by side tomorrow morning, I believe that there will be 2xturbo poss in pl 4?...all in gwr green

Yes, that's the plan.   As posted on here 166206 has joined 204 with the new livery, and I believe that one has also had seat covers changed to green as well.

166 205 is also green & has had the inside done as well from what I've been told.

Seems to be stuck at Laira Jn. according to RTT...

Yes, apologies, I got 206 and 205 mixed up.

Is now on route, and I will assume simply not have its 45 minute wait in Theale Loop

206 should of come back yesterday(Saturday) in green.

Well RTT does have the two turbos together (ex Oxford and ex OOC), which is not normally the case forming the 07:12 semi-fast to Reading, although this is down for P5.

Really?  That just sounds like corporate mumbo jumbo to me.

Call me a sceptic, but it's the same franchisee (well, parent company, the actualy limited company operating the franchise is different) with the same management team.  I hardly think a lick of paint will solve all the problems that passengers (especially commuters) have been facing on an almost daily basis for the last few years.

A rather bold claim on the new GWR website too...

Is it a different company?

The GWR terms and conditions page (https://www.gwr.com/terms-and-conditions) gives reference to Great Western Rail Limited but no such company appears to exist at Companies House (https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/search?q=great+western+rail+limited)

The GWR privacy policy page (https://www.gwr.com/privacy-policy) gives what appears to be a mistaken reference to a different unconnected company - Great Western Railway Limited which does exist at Companies House (https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/01759457), incorporated in 1983 and with no obvious links to First Group.

The GWR offers terms and condition page (https://www.gwr.com/offers-terms-and-conditions) gives reference to Great Western Railway alongside company number 05113733 which Companies House tells us is First Greater Western Limited (https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/05113733)

Glad that's all clear...!  ???

I also now apprently need to give notice to GWR that I've linked to their website. Their Ts & Cs state:Must dash, I've a letter to write!

So it's a Trading As name then?

First Greater Western T/A Great Western Railway. Just about legal then

It seems unclear whether it is a trading name or whether they have applied to change the name at Companies House.  Either way, the website references a company name that does not exist.

As an aside, shame they have not got hold of the gwr.co.uk, greatwesternrailway.co.uk and greatwesternrailway.com domain names.

Very smart - shame the 'wraps' have come off the leading power car!   :-[

I presume the 3D block GWR logo on the power cars will not be applied to the entire fleet?

(http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww255/PhilWakely/gwr1_zpsumhjwnox.jpg)

(http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww255/PhilWakely/gwr3_zpsi8wb0cqm.jpg)

(http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww255/PhilWakely/gwr2_zpsbw1ep3pq.jpg)

Here is a video of the new coaches passing through Reading West this evening
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_y-dV1TojNU

I have to admit I wasn't thrilled with the dark green originally but having seen the HST it is growing on me.


... Nice pictures by the way Phil!

Indeed, great pictures Phil. I like the new green livery. Never liked the dynamic lines which now look very dated.

I like this whole rebranding exercise to coincide with the launch of the 'new' franchise. However, as I said on another thread, I think it will be lost on a lot GW passengers with the way things are at the moment.

I saw a rake of green coaches from afar on Saturday.

(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/Mobile%20Uploads/rps20150920_193210_zpsglzvp3j1.jpg)

:)

Ah - I knew I'd seen the colour before .. I was brought up on the Southern.  Corfe Castle?

Shame about the livery of the 'D65er'  ;)  :D

Yes, looking down from the castle. Will post elsewhere about it so as not to take this thread off track any more.

Not quite the same shade of green though!   More GWR Loco than SR Coaching stock

I would like to see black/brass nameplates as well (as per attached)- not sure whether this would extend to numberplates though.

Regarding a question on the previous page, every HST power car and Class 57 will receive metallic GWR logos. Not sure about the Adelantes.

24 hours "in" ... and I'm noting that the Coffee Shop was over 40% busier than on a normal Sunday (in terms of both post number and number of user sessions).   Other measures (like session length) hardly varied; there was a very slight drop in the percentage of sessions visiting just a single page ("bounce rate").    Usually, the forum doesn't vary much from daily and weekly cycle patterns - I can't recall it changing as much as it has today did yesterday since the seawall fell into the see at Dawlish!

The Adelantes aren't staying. While some of the HSTs are staying beyond electrification, the Adelantes are off up north (Hull Trains?) at the time Scotrail take some HSTs. So they may not get the money spent?

A bit of theatre at Paddington as three newly liveried trains were lined up for the cameras

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/gwrline.jpg)

The HST has also been refurbished throughout.

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/gwrint.jpg)

The interior of the turbo has also been refreshed. Both uniforms and seat reservations have been updated

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/gwrres.jpg)
(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/gwruni.jpg)

The much talked about metal logos were much in evidence and it seems someone is employed to clean them! 

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/gwrlogoh.jpg)
(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/gwrclean.jpg)

Bit hard to judge the new livery in the artificial light of the platform but certainly attracted interest from commuters arriving this morning.

In dawn's first light 43188 stands alongside 57603 Tintagel Castle waiting to take the sleeper stock out.

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/gwrsleepg.jpg)

Note the power car numbers have now been moved to the sliding doors rather under the side windows.

Great pics Bob. I must say I'm suitably impressed with this launch of a new look. Really like the new look standard class. Great to finally see the back of that cold blue panelling.

Whilst I am very impressed by the new look, the time to judge is not now as everything has been deliberately spruced up for a launch, but 12-18 months down the line when it is 'business as usual'

Station announcements "...Great Western Railway service to..." both spoken and automated seemed very odd this morning, no doubt I will get used to this in time! Was keeping an eye out for any green on trains or staff but so far nothing on my travels.

The fully liveried set formed the 07:15 to Cardiff Central so should therefore return on the 09:55 to London Paddington. With the help of RealTrainTimes/Opentraintimes you might be able to follow the rest of its day.

That's the $1,000,000 question.  One element suggests it's "just a PR exercise" and the opposite element suggests it's a rebirth and direction change for the future - you'll have seen both elements expressed here.

I do recall that our much-criticised secondary school in Melksham - George Ward - was essentially moved to a new site with the same team for a fresh start, and "The Oak" or "Melksham Oak" has a new vitality and is bursting at the seams as parents vote with their feet and the proportion of Melksham's teenagers going to other towns has declined.  And some of that started even in the anticipation of the move before it was completed.  

The 07:15 to Cardiff and 09:55 return has been cancelled due to the broken down Turbos at Ealing; ironically the new green ones.  ::) I understand the 07:15 was trapped behind.

Oh dear. I left on the 07:30 and we did come to a stand near Ladbroke Grove and I wondered what the problem was.

I can't see all the HSTs being done in the new livery, especially those that have just had a new coat of blue.   What would the lead time be for the full HST repaint and interior changes?    From that, how many will be done by the time the first IEPs arrive?

Paul

Looking at bobm's photos of the HST standard interior, I'm guessing the covers have been fitted over the original seats?

If that is the case, over time the material stretches and can bunch (some of the turbos with the navy headrest/dynamic lines seats seem to do that).

I like the new GWR look, but I still think the Turbos looked best in Network SouthEast livery and worst in Thames Trains'.

Tweet from Roger Ford of Modern Railways magazine:


Roger also tweeted last week that Dft had wanted Stagecoach to rename the East Coast Franchise LNER! Obviously some old romantics still work at Dft  :)

I read in an issue of Modern Railways that the Adelantes are moving to Grand Central to replace their HSTs. I think the reason was that they wanted a uniform fleet.

Welcome to the forum 43127, and yes that's the intention.   The latest GW franchise agreement confirms that the 5 units are going to GC, and also adds that depending on IEP delivery 4 units may be subleased back to GW after Dec 2016.

In fact, GC had been known to have reserved the GW 180s for some time, as their intention to go for a uniform fleet (as you point out) was explained in one of their track access applications quite a while ago.

Paul

More sign-polishing in Swindon:
http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/13772064.Train_firm_sets_sights_on_a_brighter_future/

Surely better to have GC's HSTs if IEP is delayed. More reliable, more capacity than a 180 and GW has the resources to maintain and get the best out of them.

Modified to remove quote box

May not be in a state that FGW want them? Better to take back units they know & have maintained?

I bookmarked the 'franchise benifits' interactive map (https://content.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/greater-west/?utm_source=BAGWDM&utm_medium=DM&utm_campaign=BAGWcrm) and that doesn't appear to have been re-directed to GWR (the security certificate has, so trying to access the page produces a certificate error). The comment "Please note that this is a beta version of this map and only includes stations managed by First Great Western and Network Rail. We hope to update this shortly to include stations operated by other rail providers" is still there and clicking on an ATW-managed station still gives the "Upgrades for this station will be uploaded shortly. Please check again soon." message.

No first class yellow stripe? I'm so used to seeing them in dynamic lines that it looks a bit odd without the yellow stripe.

Are any of the 'west fleet' units due a repaint soon, or have they all been recently painted blue and hence won't be seen in the new GWR livery for a while? I hope 57604 is going to retain its more-traditional GWR lined green livery.

Roger Ford has backtracked somewhat on his earlier tweet regarding GWR branding being a Dft idea:

Not the first time Roger's got something wrong....

... and yet everything he says is taken as gospel by many in the rail community. Particularly if it is at odds with what a TOC or Govt. is saying.

I don't have much time for his 'analysis'.

That's a laugh! They simply publish press releases without analysing & asking pertinent questions before writing up...

Now looks like it took a trip to Exeter instead.  Should return on the 14:53 to Paddington.

Just seen a picture of the catering area in the refreshed HST. It's now a 'Larder' rather than a buffet, apparently.

Is that what GWR staff refer to it as, or just some 'enthusiasts'?

It's on the lightbox sign above the shelves and fridges.

"Great Western Railway Larder"

 :D ;D ::)

Athatched is a crop of the photo, courtesy of a contributor to the 'The UK HST Enthusiast Group' on Facebook.

With apologies if it's already on this thread or elsewhere (I can't obviously find it).. Does anyone know the new JourneyCheck link for Great Western Railways? The First great western one no longer works and gives no clue of how to find the new one.

Is it not linked from gwr.com?

https://www.journeycheck.com/greatwesternrailway/ (https://www.journeycheck.com/greatwesternrailway/)
Or click on the Current Train Running link the top of this page.

Thanks Bobm -  I was looking for that but with an S on the end.. oops.. And ChrisB - I can't obviously find it on the GWR site but it could just be me.. and it could be there..

I take it in time the 'Planned Engineering Work' page will have content added to it?
https://www.gwr.com/travel-updates/planned-engineering

The PDFs they were in the old site don't appear to have made it across.

I do like the image of a wagon loaded with ballast at Bath Spa.

Johoare - you are so right. Looks as though they want you to search your actual journey than look st the whole overview

I was like that towards the end of the old website with the Journey Check logo towards the bottom of the page. I much prefer the overview page having a link on my shortcut bar.

Monday was around 90% busier (reader wise) than a typical Monday - some 1,850 sessions of between 5 and 6 pages per session - versus around 960 sessions average for the previous four Mondays.

Nice Pics Bobm!

I got a cup of tea in a GWR branded cup along with a little tin of complimentary GWR branded mints.

There was a trolley service on the 1518 Paddington-Bedwyn semi-fast Turbo this afternoon - first time I've seen that in several years of using these services.

Just out of interest (and apologies if I've missed it further up/on another thread), how much has this rebranding exercise cost?

They won't tell you that!

...  and no first class coming back from Reading to Pangbourne (on a Turbo going to Banbury) this afternoon, first time we've had this in many years.  I'm very happy for you travelling to/from Thatcham etc. with your improved service  We'll just suffer over here with our reduced level of service, I know we'll get the sympathy we deserve ....


edited to read better

LTV wanted more seats because standard was "always packed and first class was always empty", so that's what they've got, all standard trains.

Indeed, take it up with your local MP. They seemed quite vociferous about it

Yes, trolley services on the Bedwyn's and back on the Gatwick's.

^7.5m according to the Maidenhead advertiser.

Because it wasn't cheap?

Well the 'West' fleet is starting to look a bit shabby both inside and out so was due for a refresh anyway so I'm quite pleased that GWR are spending some money on their trains.

Yes, I agree.  I'm not one for constant rebranding, but First Great Western has been with us for 17 years, and whilst the 'dynamic lines' livery didn't come along until later, it's been with us long enough to have had a very good run.  I liked it a lot to start with, and now I think it's looking a little tired and dated with many carriages due a repaint anyway. 

I personally think the new green livery gives a nice and sophisticated feel to the trains and now the logo has been added looks very nice.  Others will disagree and call it drab, but I guess that's personal taste for you.

But no one dared to sit there as it was still marked up as 1st on board (at least the one I was on), it was just the platform announcements and CIS saying 1st not available.

Even on the services with everything stripped out, people still hesitate to go in there thinking it's still 1st class.

They oight to put up station posters advising removal at those stations which no longer offer it

Seriously? ^7.5 million?  :o what exactly do the customers get for that in terms of improved services (as we're paying for it!).............I guess now we know where all that compo they got from Network Rail went!!!  ;D

We're not paying for it....it comes out of profits, possibly FirstGroups

ah I see........and those profits come from................?

Is the Maidenhead Advertiser referring to the ^7.5billion mentioned in the GWR press release?
https://www.gwr.com/about-us/media-centre/news/2015/september/first-great-western-becomes-great-western-railway-as-part-of-historic-re-brand

The answer to my own question would appear to be yes if this is said article:
http://www.maidenhead-advertiser.co.uk/News/Areas/Maidenhead/First-Great-Western-renamed-Great-Western-Railway-as-part-of-75-billion-improvement-package-21092015.htm

Some of the mark 3s do need a re-paint (or at least touching up) by the look of it: rust (https://www.flickr.com/photos/76103602@N03/21459796210) and peeling paint (https://www.flickr.com/photos/76103602@N03/21621667716) Not sure how much of that ^7.5m would need to be spent anyway just to maintain the fleet. I've noticed the 'dynamic lines' on some mark 3s fading from blue to white in patches also.

See previous posts - the source for the ^7.5m cost was probably getting confused with the ^7.5bn being spent modernising the Great Western.  Though if you include the cost of repainting all the trains and fitting new interiors then I'm sure it will come to several million, but as that would need to be done (especially the exteriors) on most of the fleet anyway, then much of it won't be additional cost.  And, as Paul said, I would not expect the whole fleet to be treated, especially those that are on borrowed time such as the 180s and HSTs.

I attended a business breakfast this morning, where Diane Burke, Sales and Marketing Director of Great Western Railway, spoke to a Wiltshire audience with limited rail connections - the bankers, lawyers, nursery school admins, accountants, software and soft skill trainers who regularly network at these events.  Whilst they know very little about what happens behind the rail scenes and the issues involved, they are very much the people who will / should / might be using the sevice in the future.

Just how much benefit a train service - serving the principle of providing a step in the way of getting people from "A" to "B" - can be was amply illustrated this morning; I checked on doing my trip from home to Chippenham Golf Club and back by public transport, but it wasn't on; I would have arrived late (OK - so I wasn't on time anyway due to a 35 minute drive or queue in traffic) and having walked a considerable distance in Chippenham.   So a 9 minute train journey would have extended to an 06:55 from home, with an 08:16 first possible arrival of the day at the club - no wonder the roads were packed with private cars with people who need to be around for (07:30 to 07:45 ... or earlier if they're working there).

I digress ...

Diane Burke is a brave lady with a mission. On this forum, we criticize the expense of the exercise and the disruption it causes - and undoubtedly in the short term of days more money has been spent.  But if it heralds the intended change of philosophical approach and attitude which forms the bedrock of the company and operation - moving on from what has served for (I understand) 17 years to something that will serve - more appropriatey - for the next ten years, then that's something to look forward too. At this point, we've just turned off the road we were on, onto what's perhaps a new and different road, and there are some fearful of what they may find there and how they'll fit in - and others excited at the new route.   

It was - disappointing - to hear talk of previous management at FGW in negative terms; my view is that each genaration or phase works for its time, and it may at some point be right to refresh a team for the future.  We should be very careful in tarring our immediate predcessors with a brush - careful who you hit on the way up as they may remember on the way down.   Yet having said that, the changed in December 2006 were so dramatic and negative that I have great respect for comments by the following series of directors when they said they were putting certain things right.

I've heard Diane talk before - and this was an updated version of the talk.  I really hope the direction works well and the positives significantly outweight the negatives.  For a Wiltshire audience, I felt it was ironic that Sleepers and Pullamns featured so heavily - all of which rattle through the county without passenger calls, conveying people from the east to west and vice versa with no economic benefit to the county.   What wasn't mentions but which Wiltshire would like to know about are Great Western plans for the through trains from our county town to Paddington, and from Swindon, Chippenham and Westbury direct to Plymouth come the replacement of the HSTs by the next generation.  I think we will also feel more a part of it when the first 143 /150 / 153 / 158 unit appears as "Great Western Railway".  Dates, anyone?

"There's no gain without pain" and I do look forward - far more optimistically that at almost any point in the past - to a greati western railway service Covering our area.  Exellent groundwork has been achived if you look where we are now to where we were 8 years ago, and perhaps the new name and direction will signal a re-direction taht's welcomed by some of our members who feel that the last year or two - with exceptions - have been a holding game.

And - to conclude - I do agree with Diane 110% about the importance of a pride in the product to be helpd by the staff, and a motivation to promote that product to the customer. Members may argue about cost of 'cosmetic' works, but if they bring a pride and that pride brings satisfaction and that brings better customer realtions and that brings happier, better informed customers (and more of them), then that's what the investment has brought. An ability to specify - as we see on the TransWilts - improved services based on improved passenger numbers. Come SLC3A, I will be able to make th equivalen breakfast meeting by train ...

Just out of interest, are they not just going to do a vinyl wrap rather than a repaint? Do you know if some money will be spent improving the appearance and quality of the toilets & vestibules on the HST fleet?

oops, my bad.  Million/Billion - its all the same.

Turbos have had the on-train announcements updated to reflect the change, though the clarity of the new voice is very poor compared with the old voice - both quieter and muffled.

You could argue that the economic benefit to Wiltshire comes from those passengers not clogging up the M4, A303, etc.

I agree the majority of Pullmans do miss out Wiltshire - but there are two that call at Swindon.  The 07:58 Capitals United to London Paddington (doesn't call Reading) and the 11:40 to Swansea.

As for the sleeper, it does often call at Swindon, but for staff only!

Indeed you have a whole load of checks and balances.


On the "benefit" side you have congestion reduction as you describe (but what's the total number of passengers passing through on sleepers and in Pullmans compared to total road traffic?) and the benefit of cleaner and quieter and a little quicker trains from Chippenham to London (not "more", though).

On the negative side ... loss of through service effecting Trowbridge, Westbury, Chippenham, Swindon, Frome, Pewsey and Bedwyn. Remember it's not just about having to change trains - it's about the wait along the way at the change point.  Yesterday I was looking at a journey that's possible direct every hour at present that takes 27 minutes at present but would take 112 (slightly out of specific area) according to early suggestions.

I'm not going to try to quantify gains and losses for Wiltshire; quieter trains Chippenham - Paddington and Chippenham - Bath - Bristol are significant gains - I was just commenting on the irony of what the talk covered.

I would second that, it was pretty much inaudible over the whoosh of the "cooling system" on the 166 I was on yesterday.

The TM on the HST I travelled into London on in the morning also kept forgetting who he is now working for during his announcements!

Old habits die hard - I had that on Monday until a large number of managers on board reminded him!

Does anyone know when or if the green HST/Turbos/Sleeper set will be at Paddington on Saturday? If not is there a way I can find out?
Thanks

But strangely not all the onboard displays, the turbo I was on this morning proudly welcoming me to the First Great Western service from Banbury to London Paddington!

The new GWR website needs a lot of the links checking as well, the customer panel minutes have gone, but if you click on the link for list of members you get to the minutes of the last meeting!

I don't know if its the failed one from Monday (or one that is still under refurbishment) but one of the green turbos has been permanently parked at the west end of Reading TD all week.

I believe the green HST is working Padd - Swansea tonight, so good chance it will return on Saturday at some point, assuming it is in service.

UPDATE: This page has been updated and now has PDF summarys upto the end of October.

Does anyone know what the green one is going to be on after 13:00 tomorrow (Saturday).

The latest edition of RAIL magazine is reporting that GWR will not be painting any further HSTs green owing to the short time left with the franchise. Wonder if that includes the interior refurb as well?

Understandable, but sad. It will look just like a cosmetic exercise unfortunately

I might have missed it, but have the automated platform announcements been updated? If they have

Have they been updated at Non FGW managed stations e.g. Guildford, Cardiff etc?

and just to speculate, if the original voice over artist is not available to record new phrases, would they get someone else to:

• record the phrase to slot in to the existing recording
• re-record the entire recording for that particular journey
• or re-record the entire catalogue of train companies and destinations?

South West Trains have updated their automated platform announcements, Southern use the same system (Except at a few principal stations - Gatwick) so I assume they have. Not sure about Arriva Trains Wales.

With regards to if original voice over artist is unavailable. You have 4 options:

• Find someone with a similar voice to recorded the new requirements
• Remove the voice all together (If it is part of a two or more voice system)
• Re-record everything in a new voice
• Don't bother in a situation like this, and don't announce the operators name

"Re-record the entire recording for that particular journey" as you said isn't possible as announcements are not recorded 'per journey' but just as recordings of individual phrases or words that can be put together in the order required.

Green HST movements today
1Z37 0820 Swansea - Newbury Racecourse
1Z30 1505 Newbury Racecourse - Plymouth
Special charter?

FGW/GWR staff day out apparently.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O28912/2015/09/26/advanced

This ECS away from the Racecourse looks like one to be on:-

"Timed for 280mph max"     :o

Will the special GWR staff outing trains have buffets ? surely a trolley would be preferable :)

The replacement phrase/voice has been merged in quite well, it's only very slightly different.

Paul

..........so enough stock for staff jollies, but not enough to run a service out of Paddington back to Cardiff after the rugby? Interesting priorities.

Daytime and just two return trips I understand.

Totally different to several/many overnight turns!

The staff trains arrive back at Plymouth at 18:59 and Swansea at 18:19.  Plenty of time to run back to London.  I think the problem comes when you end up with 3 sets at Cardiff overnight which would block up the entire station

Indeed, as Dan Paynes confirmed in that Wales Online article, trains wouldn't reach Cardiff until after 2am/nearly 3am, and would need moving on to somewhere with a drivers booking on/off point. So Landore or back to Bristol

Because I didn't go anywhere today, I will tomorrow. What is the timetable for the green set today. Sorry to bother anyone!

Made more complicated by all lines being closed at Port Talbot from 22:30 until 10:30 Sunday affecting the route to Landore and the Seven Tunnel closure complicating the run back to St Philips. 

We don't know what the green HST set will work tomorrow until the early hours of tomorrow morning when the allocations have been finalised..... I'm guessing that's what you were asking rather than what it worked today

Even then it can change as the day unfolds due to faults, late running etc etc

The green set was used today on the GWR staff beano to Newbury Racecourse.

There is a rumour (and I stress, only a rumour!) that it will be the stock for a Branch Line Society/GWR charity special from London Paddington to Buckfastleigh via Heathfield on Saturday, 10th October.

I wouldn't be surprised - I think as a current one off, it will be used for a lot of "headline" services.  The problem will be keeping all eight coaches and two power cars together.

So that's it then is it, only one HST set, a Turbo, 57 and sleeping cars to be adorned in green? I thought this was meant to be the rebirth of the GWR. But it clearly isn't that at all, merely a PR exercise..

Everything apart from the HSTs will be repainted green as and when their repaints and overhauls are due.

Including the awful 143s??

As for the HSTs, instead of smart green units, we'll end up with dirty hybrids like this (and probably including the odd green coach/power car in a formation).
(http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww255/PhilWakely/fgwhst_zpsufqrig3c.jpg)

The point made here by

Louis94

is correct, and has been noted by

Four Track, Now!

So what will the green set be on today?

Yeah but what is it expected to be on

Green set not in use today.

😢😢😢

Buy some green tinted spectacles and use your imagination!  ;D

Better than the rose tinted ones people who post on here are often wearing...  ;)

Lol

A ba****d set of green locos and green and blue carriages was in Laira today.

I mde my first visit to the new website last night. The cookies have changed, it didn't recognise me and I had to struggle through several passwords before I got the right one. Credit and Nectar card details were remembered, though.

It renders awfully on a mobile or tablet, with either a huge immovable menu overlay that blocks the whole screen or you get a corrupt script warning, depending on the browser.

It was "Great Western Railway" in the announcements while I was waiting at Cheltenham on Sunday but "First Great Western" connections mentioned on the train at Newport and Temple Meads. But then, it was a XC train!

I was at GCR on sunday. The train manager (Sonya) told people of for hanging out of the windows. But I didn't hang out. She was grumpy. Not like the nice train manager on the way back though (Mr. Tall and long beard (un-identified)) he was nice!

Much unlike the TM on the 1424 BTH to BRI, who announced that we were "arriving at sunny Bristol Temple Meads!" with a real exclamation mark and a delivery reminiscent of Alan Freeman. He encouraged us to make sure we had all our beleongings "because of all the annoyance that can cause", and reminded us "Whatever you do, keep those sunglasses on! I hope to see you again soon on a Great Western Railway service".

It was better than it sounds from my attempt at recollection. Bit cheesey in parts, but full marks for the individual touch.

Yes I have travelled with him - he got more into hyperbole talking about the stops beyond Bristol on the way to Paignton but then announced that he was, sadly, leaving the service at Bristol and so wouldn't be able to join us on the beach.

The sort of personal touch that's nice to hear on an occasional basis, but travel with him every day and you'd end up wanting to throttle him!

True - there was one TM who often worked the 07:30 from Paddington when it was the Merchant Venturer and he insisted on calling it the Merchant Ven-turer. 

Wasn't / isn't there a radio station in Swindon called GWR? imagine their DJs becoming train managers. "Coming up.......  Bath Spa  and Bristol, but first Wet, Wet, Wet"

There was indeed.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_FM

Further history of the individual GWR radio stations by following the links in that Wiki.

 "This is about more than a lick of paint and a new logo."

"Some key milestones will be: "

2015: "GWR launches....the first trains sporting the new GWR colours"
2016: ..."new uniforms released"
2017: ..."station and signage upgrades completed"

Hmmm

Having not been near an FGW GWR station since Sat 19 Sep, does this mean that some / many / most stations still have FGW branding on signs, posters etc?

I've not been to a FirstGWR-managed station either, but I'm pretty sure I saw a GWR branded 'amendments to train times' poster at Carmarthen (an ATW-managed station only served by FirstGWR occasionally) the other day. Of course that sort of thing will change much faster than platform signage.

Didcot still has the enormous 'f' on the glass above the main entrance doors, despite going green from paint. Plus a welcome sign from FGW.

I see Didcot still has blue seats on platforms, although much green paint has been applied to buildings. Could be a slow transition..

The blue paint on the railings at my local rural station has chipped away to reveal the previous green colour beneath :)

I've noticed some other, rather old, stock bearing what I assume must be the new livery parked out the back at Didcot...

Can I please have the expected timetable for the green unit today? Thanks.

I have split off reports of unusual workings for particular services on the TransWilts, and requests for (best sources of?) today's timetables to new threads, as they didn't relate to the rebranding.

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=16303.0

and

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=16302.0

Sorry, the green set.

I take it you're referring to the "best source of timetables for today" post which I split off?  To my knowledge, none of the public facing timetable sites detail the units and carriages on each working.

The Green HST set finished up at Swansea (Landore TMD) last night. I can't yet find definitive information for today, but if it does come out it'd most like likely be on either the 1054 or 1154 Swansea - London Paddington. That'd be followed by either 1537 London Paddington to Swansea, or 1627 London Paddington to Hereford.

Five sets finished up at Landore last night, LA15 being one of them. Engineering works this morning means nothing departs Swansea before 1030.

Equally, LA15  may not come out to play at all today, having a day off at Landore.

Just been told that LA15 has the morning off at Landore and will work:

1454 Swansea - London Paddington
1937 London Paddington - Swansea.

Found it!

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/foundit.jpg)

Having seen it the other day - looks nice, but I'll not be chasing it around!

Can anyone tell me where this photo was taken.   Clue - the gentleman in the kilt is Graham from Dalmally Station - http://www.visitscotland.com/info/see-do/heartfelt-by-liz-p996051 - who has done a wonderful job on the restoration and was a well deserved ACoRP awards winner http://www.acorp.uk.com/Assets/CRA%202015/AcorpWinnerLo-res.pdf (third place in the "Most enhanced stations buildings" section).

Travelled on the green set on Friday - very clean and comfortable. The green/grey interior is pleasant too. As far as the outside goes the diagonal stripe was virtually invisible unless you look for it..

Noticed yesterday that the large FGW sign on the Adelante shed at Old Oak was being replaced by a GWR sign.

Exeter depot has already been rebranded.

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/gwrexdtmd.jpg)

The new GWR website has a section on Pullman dining, but this still features the old FGW video that makes numerous references to FGW and of course features a train in the old FGW livery.

Might be time to produce a new video, filmed on the green liveried HST.

I'm hoping to see the green set IF it is on the Hereford via Gloucester service 16:27 from Paddington  :).

Was it from/to Swansea?

Nope, Swansea wasn't on that run.    I'm sorta looking for a station name though, rather than a whole route  :D

So...
Will the Green set operate this:http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P00799/2015/10/04

Okay.

I think now the "green" set has been out and about for a fortnight, it is perhaps time to call a halt on trying to trace its every move on this forum.  There are other places on the internet perhaps better suited for tracking down this information and this thread can return to recording the steps being taken in the rebranding without being disrupted by attempting to chase eight coaches and a pair of power cars.

Well I might as well not bother to enjoy my hobby, I do NOT have much spare time, and yes I have decided to join RailUK Forums. I'm not going to argue but I won't find it without knowing in advance.

Good idea - many of us are members of both forums ... with our "Coffee Shop" bias towards passengers and theirs toward hobbyists. In this particular case you'll probably find many more members who can help, and threads which track this sort of thing. 

May I also suggest joining the 'HST Enthusiast Group' on Facebook. That's where I enquired on your behalf earlier today Charlie M. No problems with asking the question there about the whereabouts of set LA15.

I am both a passenger and a hobbyist, and with the green set being the 'poster boy' for the rebrand to GWR I can fully understand like minded forum members asking of its whereabouts. I myself am still to get the opportunity to either see, photograph or ride on the green set. So am using all online resources to try and track it.

Torquay - or is that too obvious..?

Sorry - not Torquay, but I can see why you may think that.

The kilt, maybe?

No - the reference to the ACoRP awards which were mentioned in the thread and held in Torquay

Pictures from around the event ... and more places to identify if you like -
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=16279.msg184270#msg184270

One of your side trips..?
1Z69 Torquay - Okehampton
1Z70 Okehampton - Torquay

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/OKE/2015/10/02/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

Indeed.   Which, however, was a 150/2 but we stopped (somewhere) as the Green HST passed.

The HST worked 1A81 Penzance - Paddington, so the two would have met at Plymouth on platforms 7 and 8!

Yes, that's correct.

If anyone wonders what a Torquay to Okehampton service was doing at Plymouth, let me tell you it ran via Bere Alston.

The Okehampton to Exeter St Davids was even more oddly routed.

Sorry if off topic but this came to mind..!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5_8ZisNSk8

I'm almost ashamed to say that I watched that film on telly last weekend. Ah, Dora Bryan! It's on Film 4 at 5.10 on Thursday if you want to do likewise.

Indeed over the course of the day the two trips did 260 miles going from Torquay to Exeter St Davids, passing the sea wall three times.

At Reigate Station tonight, Southern seem to have opted for not announcing GWR.

Female voice announces "The next train on platform 2 is the 1923 service to Reading". A few minutes later the male voice says "The next train on platform 1 is the 1930 service to Gatwick Airport".

I have often wondered if there is a requirement to announce which company is providing a particular train.  Almost everyone does it, but is that because they are told to?

The announcements for Saturday's charity special to Buckfastleigh were interesting to say the least. The 'normal' announcement over the tannoy and on the display is either 'stand clear the next train is not stopping at this station' or the alternative of 'The next train is not for public use'. However, 'Buckfastleigh' was actually displayed, whilst the tannoy announcement was "The next train on Platform 5 is the 08:52 Great Western Railway service to <pause>, calling at <pause> only". If they can put 'Buckfastleigh' on the destination board, then surely a one off recording can be added to the database for tannoy announcements?

It needs an NLC three-character code....

Buckfastleigh is 'BFL'

I would suggest it is a lot easier and quicker to type Buckfastleigh into a computer system than it is to get both "voices" into a studio to say Buckfastleigh.

It may be, but it's not loaded into systems/recognised....so it would need adding


It might be, but how do you then reference it? By using the 3-letter code.

Well it obviously was, because it appears in the picture of Bristol Temple Meads in PhilWakely's post

And it's loaded into and recognised as 'BFL' within the railway industries 'Genius' system.

Probably not worth getting the vocals specially recorded for what is likely the only public service this timetable

I presume that's an admission that your previous statements were wrong?  But yes, I agree with you.

I'm always happy to be corrected - no 'admission' necessary.

Excellent example of a misleading announcement, in which no information would be better than partial information. Especially if you were hard of hearing, understood little English or were in any way unsure as to train you wanted.

You might say the announcement actually gave no information ^ well, it gave no useful information, but it did draw attention to the train on Platform 5 and it would be easy to imagine you'd misheard the pauses or there'd be a fault in the tannoy. The 'not stopping' or 'not for public use' announcements are much more useful.

That was also once the case at Oxford when there was a CrossCountry service terminating at Manchester Oxford Road. So the announcement went "The next train on Platform 2 is the 17:00 Virgin Trains service to <pause>, calling at Banbury [...], Stockport, Manchester Piccadilly, and <pause>". Ironic given that the CIS presumably had the words "Manchester", "Road", and indeed "Oxford" recorded as parts of other phrases...

Sitting on the heavily delayed, overcrowded, crawling1724 from Paddington tonight (which some genius sent out behind a Heathrow Connect) happen across this rather interesting article! ^12 million well spent I'm sure!

Have to say, I concur with Private Eye's rail correspondent.

The CIS dosent use the NLC codes, it uses the TIPLOCs. Of which Buckfastleigh is BUCFAST. The CIS knows the names to be associated with each TIPLOC, and if no name is associated with it the TIPLOC will display on the screens.


Sounds exactly like what used to happen with the Frome train on the Thames Trains system.

Thanks for that info

Not a statement I would agree with. Aside perhaps from Four Track, Now and the Swindon-Kemble redouble, the only planned improvement I can think of which could be described as 'glorious' is the electrification and that is hardly 'former glory' as the line was never electrified in the past. Also, none of those three projects are FirstGroup's responsibility, the only thing they appear to be responsible for is the decision to go for 7x 9-car and 22x 5-car AT300s rather than retaining some IC125s (which I'm not convinced was a good decision).

I can't remember which forum member it was who obsessed over where the "green" train is on any given day, but I've just spotted it....

LOL!

Funnily enough, today I was at Swindon and a member of staff said that most HST's will receive a interior refurb, and ALL with a temporary GWR logo on the out side...

That's good to know as I was most impressed by the new standard class interior. When you think the HSTs were last refurbished 2006/07, some carriages are starting to look a bit shabby.

Though many ex-first conversions are only a few months old.

Additionally there are 48 converted buffets and former loco hauled Mk3s whose interiors are only 2-3 years old, and 19 micro buffet interiors around 5-6 years old.

Makes sense to concentrate interior refurbs on those Mk3 TSOs, TSGs and TSODs that have had 'Dynamic Lions' interiors the longest. So of which, as Timmer says, are getting a little ropey.

I'd also like to see an interior refurb of the Class 158s. Some of these are far worse than the worst examples in the Mk3 fleet.

Hopefully GWR will start work on the 158s soon as they are looking both internally and externally due for a refurb.

Prob after the 166/165's.

Yes, I think I remember seeing that the 158 refresh is planned once the 165/6 one is finished.

I can't be the only one who thinks that if (F)GWR repaints another HST, it ought to be into its original livery rather than GWR green.

Oh I would like that BUT you would have to do the interior to the original spec as well for me to be happy.

I think it would be lovely for one to be returned to orignal blue/grey InterCity 125 livery but not yet, the final six months of HST operation on our routes would be great.

Confirmation at the House of Commons last night (Hi BobM!) that all stock being retained through the end of the franchise *will* be repainted into GWR green. So not the Adelantes and any/all HSTs not being retained, but otherwise as & when they go in for overhaul, they'll get the repaint too.

They might as well because with the way electrification is going, HSTs are going to be around for longer than originally planned. You know it's bad when they can't give revised completion dates. I can see First getting an extension of the GW franchise beyond 2019 because work to electrify the lines will still be taking place at this rate. After all the plan was for First to 'manage' the GW route during the time of electrification and Crossrail along with introducing the new IEP fleet so Dft could offer a new franchise with everything complete and in place.

The newcompletion date will be sonething that the Hendy report will contain - thus they won't release that until the report comes out - towards the end of November I hear at the earliest

I think the delay/repay scheme is really good.  Nearly half of the TOC's have adopted it already and more will follow shortly (including GWR).  The details vary slightly between each TOC, but as an example the two Virgin routes and Cross Country offer a 50% refund on a single ticket for a 30-59 minute delay (25% if a return ticket), for delays from 60-119 minutes it's a full refund (50% if a return), and for more than two hours your whole ticket is refunded if it's a return. 

Season tickets are have the same thresholds in than if your journey is delayed by 30 minutes into work you would get 25% back on that days travel based on the proportional daily cost of your ticket.  That's rather better than my bus commute which doesn't even publish performance data let alone entertain any kind of refunds for the regular delays.

Delay/repay sounds like a good move. When will it be implemented by GWR, and presumably refunds for season ticket holders will be paid into customers accounts automatically as GWR hold their details?

It will depend on how GWR sets their system up, but, as an example, Abelio Greater Anglia can refund to their customers' Season Direct account.  I believe it is going to be implemented by the end of next year, but others closer to that side of the business (ChrisB/BNM?) might know more.  It's a government initiative that all franchises will be expected to commit to over time.

Delay Repay on GWR has to be introduced on or before the 1st anniversary of the start of the current direct award franchise. The franchise started on 20th September 2015, so Delay Repay has to be in place by 20th September 2016.

From the Franchise Agreement (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/462211/red-fgw-franchise-agreement.pdf#page=134):

Can't help yet...departments are still reorganising, I doubt its been on their radar yet (specifics, I mean)

How much reorganising is required after a change of house colours? Surely the same people are in the same departments pre and post change from FGW to GWR.

Well - it's more complex that we might think.   The "F" has to be moved out and sent for safe recycling, the "G" moved up to where the "F" used to be.  Then the "W" has to be moved up to where the "G" was, but as it's a heavier letter there may need to be some strengthening of the foundations.   Then an "R" needs to be sources and installed where the "W" used to be.  Bearing in mind that's a brand new "R", it needs to conform to all the latest safety standards and go through the full GRIP process, and conform to the regulations on re-usable parts.  Staff will need training on how to use it ... and it may suffer teething troubles and delivery delays.

On what is turning into a pretty sh**ty evening for me that post cheered me up no end.

Thanks for the hearty laugh grahame.  ;D ;D ;D

Some departments are no longer

... active? ... inactive? ... radioactive?  ???

Sorry, but I can't see that GWR would have closed down any department that would be responsible for dealing with the specifics of a direct award franchise requirement which has a deadline for completion less than a year away.  :o

No longer. In other words, err no longer. Gone

Who have gone? GWR have made redundancies? They kept that quiet if so.

It's hardly a specialist job changing the compensation scheme. I suspect though that GWR will leave it until the last minute as Delay Repay is less financially beneficial to them than charter compensation.

Take last Thursday's incident at Highbridge and Burnham. GWR will be compensated by Network Rail, but don't have to pay a penny to their passengers.

Is there anything at all which tangibly benefits customers coming out of this rebrand or is it solely a (pretty half baked/painted)  expensive vanity project?

IMHO this is nothing more than the removal of the toxic word 'first' from the headline level - and therefore 'hopefully' altering the public perception of the franchise.

There was something from DfT on the web a while back that suggested the opposite.  TOCs already on delay repay were not paying out as much, especially to season ticket holders, as there were none of the blanket 5% or 10% renewal discounts anymore.

I haven't found it with a quick search, but I'll look again when I have a bit more time.

Paul

For those who didn't go to the Cornwall Expo 2015, or you mist the best part, here is the GWR (and a 'new first bus livery') images: http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/headlines---latest-reports-and-photographs/cornwall-expo-2015-a-special-report-by-mick-house

Charlie.

  .....well worth ^12.5 million......the phrase "polishing a turd" springs to mind......to be fair though, those little boxes of mints were very nice, so credit where it's due!

Do you have a source for the ^12.5 million quote?  And is there a breakdown of how that money was spent, i.e. does it include the cost of refurbishing the Turbo fleet and other things that would have happened regardless of the rebrand?

With this talk about the rebrand we seem to have drifted into the realm of another thread

Yes, and it's largely a red herring, I suspect. I understood the reorganising that ChrisB referred to (correct me if I'm wrong) was one of those things managements do from time to time, tinkering with the structure of the business. In this case the opportunity was taken to do it at the same time as the new franchise, the new company name, and the public rebranding, though it's not necessarily required for any of them.

Such a change ought not affect the travelling public, unless they have dealings with staff that involve their job titles. In this case, if staff time is absorbed in coping with the change, that obviously does adversely affect customers. You are entitled to be sceptical of any claims that the reorganisation will improve service in the longer term.

Indeed.  ::)

I have therefore split off some previous posts from the ongoing Thames Valley disruption discussion and merged them here, in the interests of continuity and clarity.

Hope this helps. CfN.  ;)

You weren't having a good day, were you? :-)

Another incorrect assumption - just because a department is no longer, doesn't mean any redundancies - the department has gone, the staff reassigned / a new department as well. (but before you assume again, it wasn't simply a rename, some staff moved across departments)

From the Western Daily Press[/quote]

 (http://www.westerndailypress.co.uk/Complaints-ad-watchdog-GWR-claim-railway-West/story-28174748-detail/story.html)

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P06658/2015/11/20/advanced

Could this be 150232 refurbished in GWR green?

There are a number of interesting workings around this weekend / at the moment, and "frequent posters" may have noticed some discussion into them.   The one you mention here, Charlie M, does look as if it might be a unit returning from major service / refurb, but for most of the others that's not a feasible explanation.  I heard it could be a good weekend for 'spotting' around the Westbury area - whether that's just because of there being so many diverted trains through there or because something out of the ordinary is passing through I'm not sure.

Is it just me, or do I detect a hint of sarcasm in the female voiced automated station announcements - 'The next train to arrive at platform 3, is the Great Western "Railway" service...' with the word railway sounding like it's accompanied by air quotes...

Though previously it was First Great "Western" service, with exactly the same intonation as you describe on the Western. The previous announcements, prior to their updating a couple of years ago, were much smoother than the current ones. Not sure why these are more clunky.

South West Trains have a little humorous dig at GWR, and GWR get all pissy po-faced about it.

(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/imgmod_zpsin8okzwq.jpg)
(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/imgmod%201_zpsyh5n401x.jpg)

GWR press release (https://www.gwr.com/about-us/media-centre/news/2015/december/gwr-responds-to-south-west-trains):


Totally missing the point of the deal between Stagecoach and Virgin.

GWR's reply should have been in kind, but I suspect the advertising budget has been blown on the rebrand.

Or if, "(your) own approach is to get on with the business" then no need for the press release. Responding shows the humorous digs have struck a nerve.

Well done SWT for shining a light on GWR's pointless rebranding.

Ah I wondered what that was about - not seen the SWT material until now.

Meanwhile, in a few says time, when people start discovering that fares to the Yeovil stations are still a complete mess following SWT's new service patterns, GW and SWT need to be getting together and sorting out all the anomalies, whereas there'll probably be no cooperation at all...

Paul

Not an easy thing to do. But you could roll it in glitter. 

I cannot see why GWR felt the need to respond to SWT's recent advertising as all it's done is add fuel to the fire  ??? Were SWT actually referring to GWR? They aren't changing the shade of their trains...they are completely changing the entire colour scheme.

It's not like they are in competition with each other like Virgin and Chiltern are for West Midlands customers.

I do agree with GWR that yes we do "want train companies focusing on delivering faster, more frequent train services and more seats, not bickering in public."

If GWR think that this is the kind of thing that frustrates customers, they really need to take a long hard look at themselves.....I'd say that wasting millions of ^ on a vanity project would be higher up the list and host of issues around their reliability, communications, customer service etc may just sneak ahead of it at the top of the list too?

Knocking negative advertisement campaigns in general don't work very well in Britain compared to say the USA which is why you don't see them very often. For some reason transport companies have some faith in them; maybe they do work better in this sector. FWIW in my opinion it does shame SWT more than FGW - but they might have been wiser to take the moral high ground and just promote themselves and ignore SWT.

You obviously don't watch Mythbusters as much as I do:

http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/mythbusters/videos/polishing-a-turd-minimyth/

Class 150 232 is in GWR Green.

Happy Christmas Charlie M ...

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/gwrrhs136.jpg).(http://www.wellho.net/pix/gwrrhs140.jpg)

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/green150232.jpg)

I am not really sure what my personal views on the rebrand are. Most of the time it seems as far as the real world goes I travel with First Great Western as that is what all the signs say. I use the trains every weekday and some weekends too. I mainly travel to Bristol Temple Meads which I believe is quite a large station but the only rebranding I had seen were a few posters. Once somebody in a nice greenish suit asked to see my ticket but it was very early in the morning and there is no accounting for some people's behaviour.

But today I finally saw "the green one" 43187. It looked shiny  :)

I had my first ride in one of the green Turbo's today - the green seat coverings made me think of the countryside - perhaps that's the idea!

I had my first ride on a green one on the 16.03 to Avonmouth yesterday afternoon and not a ticket check in sight again .

It is lovely to have a free rail service, and I applaud the city council and GWR for providing it in these days of austerity, when every penny counts in the public purse.

Just to be clear I did have a valid ticket

I usually see the Severn Beach branch arrival into Temple Meads around 8.00 and from attempts to count, I suspect its at least at 100% seating capacity (around 225 seats).  Which is great to see. But I'm wondering now, just how many of those have actually paid?

The vast majority will have paid. Morning arrivals have two ATEs and a conductor. Those missed will have to buy to exit the station. There may be a handful missed who board subsequent services and aren't seen by someone selling tickets.

My last few day time journeys on the Severn Beach Line have seen an RPI aboard as well as the ATEs and Conductor. I've even seen ticket sellers on the platform at Clifton Down.

It is however the late afternoon/evenings/weekends where revenue is going uncollected. Services at these times have only a Conductor and journeys not starting/transitting through Bristol TM are often free. Just a few days ago I boarded at Lawrence Hill for Avonmouth. No fare taken. Although in this instance the Conductor hadn't booked out an Avantix.

I spoke with an RPI and asked about afternoon/evening revenue. They are aware of the issue and do try to cover the lineas often as possible. There aren't any plans however to diagram ATEs at these times though.

I had occasion to study some of the GWR branded posters at both Exeter Central and St Davids earlier today. Being a bit of a pedant and someone brought up alongside the Southern line out of Exeter, I had to suppress a scream at one particular poster...........

"We're giving Exeter back its Great Western Railway"

Fine, I hear you say - except this poster was very obvious at Exeter Central, but conspicuous by its absence at Exeter St Davids. Whilst, technically true to a certain extent, I believe the GWR never actually reached Exeter Central  ::)  :o  ;)

Saw my first rebranded train with the new seats this week at Twyford. Caused a slight murmur on the platform which was almost entirely negative from "will they make it run on time" to "why change the seats I never get one".

I don't think the rebrand is winning over my fellow early morning commuters although we do seem to be taking a lot more interest in the rolling stock.

  :D clearly pays to share grumbles on here rather than keep them to yourself! I am, this moment, on the green hst I saw the other day. Echoing the views in the post above: the experience standing in the vestibule is very similar to before.

I saw the very green one at TVP today, albeit still with a blue rear engine car, heading towards EXD. I wish I hadn't - I should have been past Taunton long before then.

It amazes me they managed to keep it together as long as they did, knowing how frequently vehicles/power cars are swapped in and out.

I was on the "green one" today (10/2/2016) as it left RDG at 740 for PAD. I'd not taken much notice of the detail of the changes before but liked the inside because I thought it was changes in outside livery only. I also noted there appeared to be a buffet car in the standard section of the set - in what would normally be "coach b". I was in too much of a rush to grab a seat to notice any more.

Someone on here noted that the re-brand made the front of the power car look different - I would agree.

I like the interiors but I think the light colour of the seats will show up staining quite badly in time.

Agreed. But I still like it

I was in Paddington this morning early enough to warrant a a McBreakfast and saw the sleeper rebranded and thought it looked very smart. I am guessing there is more chance of this set staying together than perhaps an HST set.

Most days I've seen it returning to the depot it's been pretty much "mix and match", maybe it's been to the paint shop?

The sleeper fleet is being rebranded on a coach by coach basis which is leading to the missmatch sets. I guess the planets must have aligned and you got to see a full green set.  :)

Travelled on the green HST yesterday on the 0855 ex-Swansea to Paddington. First time I've seen it close to, and I thought as it ran into the platform it looked as if it belonged to the army!  I thought the interior colour scheme was OK though.

The "Green 'Un" is special because of it's uniqueness.

I managed to skilfully avoid it after introduction despite two months of trying. Our stars just seemed to never align.

Finally bagged it on an overcrowded Reading to Swindon run. Our paths haven't crossed since.

Keep just missing the GWR green Class 150 too.

Welcome to the forum Merthyr Imp.  :)

Saw the green HST yesterday and the power cars both match again  :)

Also, there was a two-car green unit doing the Swindon to Cheltenham hop yesterday. I hadn't seen that before. Didn't get a good look - it was at a distance.

Probably 150 232 - as seen on rear cover of TransWilts annual report at http://atrebatia.info/twcicannualreport2015.pdf

Was a full green set towards the end of last week too; happened to be walking towards the Cow Lane bridge in Didcot when it went over.

It was definitely a 150 so I'm sure you are right Graham.

I know we are speculating that there's only one green HST set and there are currently no plans for others to be introduced but is the multiple unit fleet gradually changing colour as it goes through the maintenance cycle? They should sneakily paint that SWT loaner that's always working the Swindon routes ;D

I travelled in from Thatcham to Pad today on what I think was the 166 which had been rebranded on the outside not the inside. Still, it looks great on the outside. So that is now 3 sets I have seen a 165, a HST and the sleeper. So is the HST the only one that has an internal makeover?

Seems to be that way for the minute.  Style over substance?  Make it look different on the outside, and on the inside nothing has changed.  Symptomatic of the FGW rebrand perhaps?  ??? (Oh the cynicism of one so young!)

One of the Turbo's has had an internal branding done as well as extendal.  Others had not long been given an internal refresh when they were repainted green, so it would have been a waste of money doing them again straight-away.  When other sets go through the ongoing disability modifications I would think that would be a good time to do the internal branding too.

It's funny, isn't it.

You do a company rebranding and get loads of stick about it being a waste of money, just marketing, a vanity project etc.

So next time you do a franchise-based (i.e. will be kept whoever wins next time) repaint, only do it on stock that will be kept in that next franchise, don't do the inside unless they need a refurb anyway ... and you get the same complaints!

You're damned if you, you're damned if you don't.

I totally agree. I do like the new livery and the re branding as a whole. Maybe it's just because I feel the old blue livery is showing it's age now. Mind you I haven't seen a "greenie" dirty yet :)

I think people's cynicism works on the basis of (for example), if my beloved Plymouth Argyle spent a fortune on redecorating the stadium but put the same players in Arsenal shirts, would it make them a Premier League team?

I like the new brand.  The problem I have with the rebranding exercise is that it drawing on a historical name to try and create a brand which bigger than a mere here today gone tomorrow franchisee.  And yet we all know in our heart of heart that it is just as much a gimmick as any other brand and will likely not be around for very long.  If First get to renew their franchise, it may not survive the next management change.  If First loose the franchise and it goes to Stagecoach, do we ever know that they will be allowed to keep the GWR brand (even if they wanted to) which is presumably the property of First. 

As I say, I like the new brand.  I'd support the rebranding exercise if it stood a chance of having some permanence, in the same way that the Scotrail brand (which is presumably owned by the Government rather than the current incumbent) has.

I thought this most recent rebrand (what is it, number 4 now since privatisation and the demise of the InterCity branding?) was intended to be carried through into future franchises, as you mention, in the manner of the ScotRail branding?

Hehe, just seen 150232 arrive at BRI attached to and behind a 153. GLORIOUS  ;D

I can't see anything in the franchise agreement that says that, bur I assume that the decals can be peeled off and internal GWR branding removed quite cheaply. What's left then is the green livery - whether that was First's sole choice or they consulted other potential franchisees I have no idea.

What is in the franchise agreement is that the cost of removing any company-specific branding falls on the outgoing franchisee. There is the option of selling the GWR brand, of course, as it is specific geographically, not to First.

The change in branding to GWR was mainly driven by the toxicity of the FGW brand, in order to build & maintain a successful brand, you need to project a consistent level of quality, demonstrated by consistent communications, consistent products, and consistent services, the "GWR brand" will be utterly worthless (and will tarnish a great historical name) if all it produces is more of the same but painted green. It has a long, long way to go to live up to the name "Great Western Railway" with all of its proud historical connotations.

The decals come off as mentioned & new franchisee gets that colour stock going forward. They can brand that as they please

You of course have inside information... ...or is this just your opinion? 

I seem to remember reading somewhere that First were prepared to offer the brand to an incoming franchisee.  Can't remember where though. 

Update:  I have found it further up this thread at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=15989.msg179687#msg179687 (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=15989.msg179687#msg179687)

The new green livery does not appear (to me) to have arrived with much of a splash insofar as anything
rolling into local stations is concerned. Now, I know it would be a wasteful expense to prematurely repaint stock before it is usually scheduled but, on the assumption that they are not all done at once, shouldn't a few more  than the original showcase 125 be appearing soon?

As I understand it the green livery is primarily for the new stock and the stock that is being retained in the franchise for the long term (i.e. not the HST's).  We may therefore expect more Turbos and 150's to be repainted, but not the HST's.  Repainting stock that will only be retained in the short term would indeed be a waste of money. 

The decision to allow the GWR brand to transfer was to avoid a new franchisee having to repaint what would then be brand new IEP's if the franchise changes hands at the next change.  It may not have been a requirement of the franchise, but a good extra benefit to offer. 

I don't read that the same way as ellendune, or bignosemac who in the cited post said:

I think the requirement is for First to do one of: transfer any branding, remove it, or pay for it to be removed. However, the legalese forms a dense thicket around whatever it means. The relevant bit goes:

Ignoring the semantic overkill of "provide or procure the provision of", I think the undertaking has to be made in advance in such a form as "we undertake to provide to the successor operator whoever that may be". The words appear to also allow for an undertaking only made once the successor is known and to them only, though that makes little sense to me.

Incidentally, the words "Marks" in that "relevant bit" has this definition:

I take it that "applied on the expiry of the Franchise Period" means still present, having been applied earlier, rather than that applying them happens only at the franchise end. And a "Brand Licence" is granted by the DfT to the franchisee, which I guess might apply to a permanent franchise or service name.

The GWR Trade Mark device is owned by First Great Western Limited.  Noone else can use it without their consent (which conceivably, they could be forced to give as part of the Franchise of other agreement that they have entered into although I see no evidence of that).  I can see no reason why FGW would give up their rights in the brand voluntarily.


https://www.ipo.gov.uk/tmcase/Results/1/UK00003064468 (https://www.ipo.gov.uk/tmcase/Results/1/UK00003064468)


Interestingly the final real pre-nationalisation GWR device is now owned by the Science Museum.

Yes certainly.  However, I do wonder if us "armchair experts" are looking nostalgically back through rose tinted glasses.  I don't know if any of the senior forum members were actually around before the last war, when the Great Western Railway was the Great Western Railway; and not the wartime British Railways or the post war Western Region of a nationalised British Railways.

Without researching the actual figures, I would presume the fares were lower as a percentage of average take home pay. Certainly the network was bigger and went to more stations, but did all the trains run exactly to time all the time, and did every passenger always get a seat?  Did every engineering possession complete on time and did signals never fail?  Brunswick green, copper and brass locomotives look fine when polished and charging through the countryside at speed.  However a station full of them makes it a pretty toxic place to be for anyone working there long term.

I suspect that every time has its own problems, and these are just ours.  In a few years we'll be griping about something else.

Why? Surely there were far more staff working per passenger carried each day, so arithmetically that would give a fare much higher per day's GWR pay. There will be differences in typical journey length, but unless railway pay was far below whatever you are calling "average", it doesn't add up.

It certainly had its problems - as well as 'God's Wonderful Railway', GWR also stood for 'Great Way Round' because of the tortuous journey times on some of it less-than-direct routes.  Christian Wolmar's book 'Fire & Steam' is an excellent read and regularly references the problems GWR, who he describes as 'parsimonious' (and the other members of the 'big four') had that seem to have mostly been forgotten.  You did have a few trains with outstanding average speeds (for the day), such as the 'Cheltenham Flyer', but at many other times it took an absolute age to get anywhere.

I have no stats but I would be surprised if fares were lower in relation to average incomes, not only for the reason stuving gives about staff levels, but because transport as a whole has become much cheaper over the past half century or so.

The GWR was indeed known as the Great Way Round.  If you think that most Plymouth Trains went via Bristol or the Berks and Before the various cut-off were built.  Birmingham Trains all went via Oxford.  Then there was the famous 10 minute stop at Swindon due to the catering concession there!Before the late 1880's South wales Trains all went via Gloucester!  and even after that they went via Bath and Bristol! The fastest way to London from Swindon was to catch the train from old Town Station to Andover and take the train to Waterloo!

From the 1890's in particular the GWR sought to address these failing by building the various cut off lines and investing in faster trains. 

Gradually starting to see more 150 units in the green paint plus the new toilet and customer informations screens. What was annoying was for the automatic announcement about the next stop, and then for the poor sounding ticket inspector to make a poor announcement copying exactly what was said  >:( pointless!

Does anyone have an up to date list of which units are due to be painted/have been painted to the new GWR?

Only one 150 has been liveried GWR green as far as I'm aware. 150232.

You get the feeling that it's going to be like painting the Forth Bridge..........by the time they've painted everything green, it'll be time to start at the beginning again..............or perhaps another rebrand?  ::)

It's probably a lot less than you think. The new 800/801 trains all need to be painted in some colour or other, and that had to be chosen - probably by about now. The current fleet only "need" (in the marketing sense) to be painted to match if they are being kept. And, if you remember, a repaint programme for DMUs had just begun - but not got very far, which helps to cover up the lack of foresight that led to it ever being started.

Is it just coincidence that First buses have also had a new livery or a deliberate move to give them separate identities?

Think they've been decentralising the management to each area group, who then do their own thing in regards to livery. Part of the long term plan to make the name 'First' not make people cringe or grit their teeth as soon as they hear it.

I'm not sure that many people make the connection between bus and rail arms of the organisation. After all if they were that close, there would be something better than Plusbus, wouldn't there?

Well, it was all First, wasn't it? Still is of course but less obviously now. I've never used Plusbus so can't comment on that; in fact I didn't realise it was a First thing, I was under the impression it applied to all TOCs and bus operators who'd joined the scheme.

In the interests of clarity and continuity, some recent posts discussing trade marks in general have been split off into a separate topic, at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=16776.0  :)

I think I went on this between Westbury and Bristol Parkway this week - looked very smart.

The GWR green power cars are apparently sandwiching a rake of FGW Blue Mk3s today.

Several of First Kernow's coaches have been resprayed to GWR green. There are now I believe more coaches in green than trains.
The coaches sprayed are those that are almost uniquely used for rail replacement work,

The ones being done are the ones which came from the Swansea - Cardiff Greyhound service so needed repainted anyway.  First Kernow sources have stated that this will be their new coach livery and the vehicles will receive FK branding rather than GWR, even though as said they are currently mainly used on rail replacement work.

They look very smart with branding

https://www.flickr.com/photos/swbuspics/25240450900/in/contacts/

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/kernowbus.jpg)

From Marketing Magazine (http://www.marketingmagazine.co.uk/article/1387584/passengers-handed-adult-colouring-books-great-western-railway):

What 'new locomotives' are they on about?  ::)

I was puzzled as to why the aluminium 800/801/802s were being called "Iron Horses or the West".

Although the body shells are aluminium, there must be some ferrous components in the bogies?

I'd hope the wheelsets were steel.

By that logic actual horses could be called iron horses because of their steel horseshoes.  Strangely, the Latin binomial for horse suggests just that - Equus ferus    (ferus actually means wild or untamed as in ferocious rather than iron which would be ferrum). 

Isn't it equites ferreis?

"People called Romanes, they go the house?"  ;D

Well, no - equites is horsemen. Try equi ferri, or ferrosi.

Je suis un ferroequinologiste.

Well I dunno, it's rubbish, that Google Translate thing. I used 'horse of iron', which gave 'equites ferreis' which in turn translates back as 'iron horse'.

As it said on the flyleaf of my Latin Grammer:

Latin is a dead language
As dead as dead can be
It killed the Ancient Romans
And now it's killing me.

Grammer?

Written there by my grate friend Peason. Or molesworth 2. As any fule kno...

Silly of me. Obviously I meant 'grandma'.

Not Kelsey?

I'd venture to suggest that we're going off at a tangent here - but that would be Greek, not Latin.  ::)

Sic Transit Gloria Swanson.

I caught a glimpse of The Green Set tonight and it appeared to be topped and tailed by power cars wrapped with the 'Building a Greater West' theme. From my distance I couldn't see if they were the green power cars carrying wraps or older FGW-style ones. I'd hazard a guess at the latter: why wrap the new-style ones?

As has been noted previously, it must be a nightmare trying to keep that one rake of coaches and the associated power cars together through the maintenance cycle. Or is there more than one green set now?

Yes they're 'older' ones.  Just the one set done, though another major step to the 'greenification' of GWR will take place on Monday 25th April when all the front line staff are supposed to start wearing the new uniform.

Wasn't it determined that none of the stock that is planned to be released during the direct award is being re-liveried, and the green HST will therefore remain unique?

Paul

I seem to recall one comment (on this forum on WNXX, I forget which) that two sets would be done in green for the launch (one with a refurbished interior, the other staying the same internally) but other than that I think the jist was that no more would be done. I also read somewhere that the green set has had some mods done as a trial by the ROSCO (Angel trains I think) for any sets which may find other uses after replacement on the Great Western.

Incidently, does each set of FirstGW mark3s have a 'correct' formation (eg. I seem to recall reading that Chiltern's plug door rakes have coaches numbered in sequence like 12601, 12602, 12603 etc. in one set) which FirstGWR try to reform whenever coaches get muddled between sets or do they not care whether it is any buffet, any FO, any TGS etc. on any dynamic lines blue set?

.

From the Great Western Railway press invite:

Blimey, even Dr Goebbels would have been pleased with that one!!!  ;D

Are TransPennine Express staff getting new uniforms as well?

I cannot see anything untrue in what was said.  Have I missed something. 

Propaganda may be biased/not impartial but is not by definition untrue, it's just intended to promote a particular agenda or perception, for example suggesting that GWR is "reflecting the pride and heritage of the railway and the communities that it serves".

An update, in another Great Western Railway press release:

Wot - no Ollie ?!?  :o ::) ;D

Those ladies neckscarves will last just as long as it takes for one pissed off commuter to grab the ends & pull.....shame

Are they not of the 'instantly detachable' specification - like the clip-on ties worn by male members of staff?  :o

The blokes all look thoroughly miserable!

One of the ladies looks quite feisty, though. :P

Just took the words right out my mouth TG. Come on lads at least smile.

Bottom picture, right hand side?

I've had the odd run in with FGW/GWR TMs. I'd think twice about entering into a ticket validity debate with her though.  :P ;) ;D

I think she's perfected what they call the "Thousand Yard stare"!  (I believe the "models" were asking about facial expressions before the show, and were told "Just imagine you're on the Gateline and you see Bignosemac heading towards you"!)  ;D

Uniform looks fine.  Except the waistcoats do not fit the men.  Everyone one of them has crumpled up material over the shoulders.  Either the cut is wrong or the staff too burly  :)

Some from column A, some from column B...

It's not as green as the one I've seen, which must have been a trial design. This one is more grey.

Or, as they say elsewhere, "I'm not so green as I'm cabbage lookin'"

No, I don't know either.

I've just realised where I've seen before the particular shade of green GWR are using. It's the same colour as the algae sludge my Grandad used to clean out of his fish pond filter bed.

Does that mean you're not a fan, BNM?!

For what it's worth, I think it's quite a nice uniform and is about as nice as a green uniform can be!

Damned with faint praise if I ever saw it!

(Taplow) Green is the colour!  :D

GWR have relivered a second HST in green and it made its debut run to London on the 10:00 from Penzance to Paddington.  A bit hard to photograph it when you are riding on it.  However I suspect there may be some better pictures from Tiverton Parkway later.  ;D

In the meantime here are shots from Newton Abbot and London Paddington.

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/la16nta.jpg)
(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/la16pad.jpg)

Has it had an internal refurb as well?

No it hasn't. Indeed my seat in the restaurant had a broken reclining mechanism so I enjoyed my meal four inches shorter than everyone else.  ;D

I think bobm's Pullman lunch must have been a little too much as he does himself a disservice! He is alluding to TVP pictures as he happened to spot me photting, but his pictures are better quality than mine  :D :P

(http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww255/PhilWakely/2Untitled_zps4i4mvuun.jpg)
(http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww255/PhilWakely/Untitled_zpsv20vnltc.jpg)

Incidentally, bobm, were you able to sample today's Chef's Special on the Pullman?  Glasto Mud Pie!

If I'm being pedantic, it actually made its debut on the 0702 PAD-PNZ  ;)

I think you mean Plymouth to Penzance and I did say debut run to London because I couldn't remember if an HST forms the 07:02 on a Monday. Occasionally it's been a unit.

Yes apologies for the typo and for not reading your post properly!  ;)

I'm happy of the changes to the units....


My Mum's neighbour is a Train Manager, I think that I will need to speak to him to see what is going on about the train manager sager.

And I'm a little p***** about the interior of the new ones for Thames. No first class on it?

Just to note according to her LinkedIn profile Diane Burke, who led the rebrand, has left GWR.

Own choice or sacked? To be honest it's been a colossal non event as far as most customers are concerned........a few trains which were blue are now green, that's about it.

No answer, but if I look at someone's profile and find them straight into another role it tells me one story ... and if there's a gap, it suggests something else.   No definite proof - I was once laid off on a Friday and had a new job on the Monday, and I know people who have taken a planned sabbatical.

The "Blue to green" is a slow burner - like franchise changes at time.  Nothing much appears to have happened, yet it time the direction is radially different.

Quite often people like her are on fixed term contracts to carry out a task and then that's it, they move onto their next project.
I know of someone with a similar portfolio of employment and has moved all over the world carrying out his project then moves on. He does get paid more a month than most do in a year so don't go feeling sorry!  ;D

It's a bit of a no win. If they paint all the trains green they'll be accused of wasting money. If they don't it seems half hearted.

Worth noting that the new "employment" listed on LinkedIn is her own company, incorporated this year.

Leave them blue then. Costs nothing, changes nothing. Problem solved.

They could go any colour for no difference in cost. As part of one of the mandatory overhauls a repaint is required. The ones that have gone green have done so as part of that mandatory repaint. I'm pretty certain it's the C6 overhaul that requires a paint as part of the work

The paint (well actually vinyl's the trains are all grey underneath) is only part of it.  The rebranding the uniforms to GWR for Drivers to carriage cleaners, train dispatch to guards etc even managers with GWR ties has help the company ethos; speaking as someone who travels on a lot of TOC during the working week the rebranding and identity to GWR has I believe has given back some pride to all the staff, there has been a great improvement in how the whole team presents its self.

It is not just a repaint and a few uniforms as I suspect quite a lot of work and briefings has gone on in the back ground, however it is a great credit to all the GWR staff to how they have adopted the brand and work for their customers, we as traveling public should respect and appreciate this it is a good example of employer and staff working together unlike a certain other TOC I have "joy" of attempting o travel with today

I've personally been given a bit of a 'power-up' thanks to the rebranding, and I know some staff feel the same.  It's kind of been a marking point from the old FGW with everything new seeming a long way off, to the arrival of brand new trains in service, with many more to follow and the completion of the first stages of electrification.  TG is quite right that the passengers on the ground won't have noticed much yet, but they soon will when a shiny 8-car Electrostar rolls into the platform rather than a packed 3-car Turbo.

Apart from the two HST rakes, everything that has been 'repainted' will be kept by GWR and would have needed attending to sooner or later anyway.  Turbos and Sprinters in the old livery are starting to look quite 'tired' with fading vinyls and dirt and grime affecting some of them.

However, I remain of the opinion the launch might have been better if it had been done in one big bang 6-12 months later with the uniforms done on the same date rather than six months after.

I agree that the rebrand has made a difference.  My main objection to it has not happened yet but it is when the franchise goes to the next operator they will change it again and the fine name of GWR will just be another here today gone tomorrow brand. 

It shouldn't. The main thing that triggered the rebrand was the short contract followed by a new franchise. So all the new trains need a transferable branding to avoid redoing them so soon, and the "First" name had to go. The turbos were just starting on a relivery programme, and most HST are not getting done.

We don't know if DfT will insist in the ITT on the GWR branding being kept, or if it will be optional - and any new franchisee is only likely to want to change it if the introduction of the new trains goes horribly wrong.

I think the GWR branding is transferable - does First own the GWR mark, or is it the DfTs?

The mark is owned by FGW Ltd.  https://www.ipo.gov.uk/tmcase/Results/1/UK00003064468 (https://www.ipo.gov.uk/tmcase/Results/1/UK00003064468)

Doesn't mean of course that it can't be transferred to a new owner.  But my concern is that an incoming Franchisee will, with their usual hubris, want to stamp their own mark on the franchise. 

I think the main thing that triggered the rebrand was the toxicity of the "First" brand in the eyes of the public and the poor standard of service - calling it GWR conveniently removes it from the immediate consciousness, but it doesn't fool too many people, it's the same crowd painted green (in some cases).

You don't change a brand because it's successful, it can be catastrophic to change what people know and are comfortable with - remember BA's short lived "ethnic" tailfins?

It's good if it's engendered more team spirit and an acceptable level of customer focus amongst staff though, I will say that, although that's primarily an issue of organisational culture rather than brand.

Does First Group have IP Rights to the GWR brand? I thought it was one of Brunels, created many years ago? I can't see that they could stop any future franchisee using it - in any case if they'd lost the franchise, why would they care?

The 'GWR' logotype is a registered trademark for all kinds of goods including wallpaper, fish and jam ... see here (https://www.ipo.gov.uk/tmcase/Results/1/UK00003064468).

-Yes FGW Ltd have IP rights in the GWR brand including (but not limited to) the UK registered trademark linked to above.

- the name GWR was indeed created by Brunel, but any rights the original GWR had lapsed years ago through non-use.  (there is perhaps an interesting legal side argument about the use since by preserved railways, model makers etc).  Brunel's use would not stop FGW validly having IP in the GWR name.

- In any case the registered trademark is for the stylised letters, not the name on its own

- FGW might well be able to stop a future franchisee using their stylised GWR logo and it is possible that they would be able to stop others using the GWR name and possibly the green colour etc.   

- I think your "why would they care" comment shows a misunderstanding in how companies view brands.  They are assets and as such companies do care about others using them or certainly using them without payment.  Their logic will be, "if an incoming franchisee wants to retain the brand then they must see it has some value, therefore we should be entitled to a share of that value".

of course this could all be taken care of in agreements between DfT and FGW.  But I doubt DfT are on the ball enough for that. 

Indeed it is.  Do they not sell jam on their trains?  Are kippers not available in the dining car?  Is there not wallpaper in their lounges? 

And had you noticed that Science Museum Enterprises (presumably the entity that operates the shop at the NRM?) have this mark to the original logotype registered  https://www.ipo.gov.uk/tmcase/Results/1/UK00002636701 (https://www.ipo.gov.uk/tmcase/Results/1/UK00002636701)

Are the kippers stamped GWR though  ;D

The interesting thing with the Science Museum Group registration of the shirt-button is that it is so recent. It is indeed the National Railway Museum behind most of their registrations with such others as Mallard and Flying Scotsman.

Right, so it's the "GWR" (with the weird W) logo that's trademarked, not "Great Western Railway"

An attempt to register great western railway in upper cases was withdrawn on 28/5/15. There are no other 'great western railway' in words trademarks.
GWR on the other hand has 6 registered and 3 more in the application stages. IPOs website also gives us a clue how long the rebranding planning has been going on, the GWR current logo was registered in 2012

https://www.ipo.gov.uk/tmtext.htm

I personally don't  think the brand had become particularly toxic.  Not saying it was a success story either, but compared with the late 2000s when there were fare protests and the I hate First Great Western campaign it was then when the brand would have been ditched if that was the case surely?

I know regular commuters might not be particularly happy with things at the moment, but it's hardly the open revolt that's going on at Southern currently, or affected First capital Connect, or going back further, Connex.

I think it had rather more to do with the fact that brand new or cascaded trains and new enhanced timetables were on the horizon for many routes and that a fresh start was deemed a sensible way to best capitalise on that. 

Umm not quite - it says July 2014 so not that long.  The mark registered in 2012 was for the original 1920's GWR roundal logo - and that was registered by the Science Museum!

We did poke about in the contract details about this before - partly in a secondary thread (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=16391.msg185601#msg185601). But, in all its glory, here is Schedule 14.2 section 2 of the Franchise Agreement (22 March 2015):


What counts as a "distinctive get-up"? Your guess is as good as mine.

I do think the idea for a rebranding came out of the discussions about the abortive 15-year franchise, and the introduction of IEP, in 2012. When DfT realised the difficulty of coping with the first few years (even before they knew how much the volts would be delayed), they started to explore an interim "franchise" with FGW. IEPs need a paint job of some kind, and DfT have to represent the interest of the following franchisee. The rest follows.