Great Western Coffee Shop

I don't know if this has been posted elsewhere but there is a damning article about FGW here. Frankly, if this is true, the arrogance is outstanding - but I expect nothing better.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/11832178/Find-cheapest-rail-fares-yourself-passengers-told.html

Ministers threaten to intervene after First Great Western says it presumes customers have researched the best deals 'by the time they approach the booking office'

Train passengers must find the cheapest fares themselves because companies are under "no obligation" to help, one of Britain's largest rail firms has claimed.

Ministers have threatened to intervene after it emerged that train operators were able to exploit a legal loophole to sell customers expensive tickets.

In an email exchange seen by The Telegraph, First Great Western said its policy for station staff was to presume people had researched the best deals "by the time the passenger is requesting their tickets at the booking office".

It was "unrealistic" to expect customer service staff to ensure tickets were offered at the best price, the email said. As a result, people were legitimately sold "anytime" tickets during off-peak hours and could be paying double the correct fare for their journeys.

A spokesman for the firm, which serves the South West from London Paddington, confirmed that the email accurately reflected its policy. It is understood that the stance does not break the law. First Great Western staff are staging a strike this weekend over concerns about staffing levels on new high speed trains.heapest-rail-fares-yourself-passengers-told.html

The 'spokesman' statement right at the bottom seems rather different from the 'e-mail exchange seen by The Telegraph' referred at the top, without proper indication of who exactly this was between, or what was in it verbatim.

Surprisingly this is the lead page 1 article in at least some printed editions.

I suspect this is over splitting tickets to be honest

So do I, in the main.

It may also be about being sold a ^160 peak return when the return journey is off peak and it would be cheaper to buy an ^80 peak single "up" and a ^37.90 off-peak single (or even a ^29.70 superoffpeak single) back. I suppose that's a form of splitting tickets too, though.

It's very easy for the providers (in both government and the rail industry) to shrug their shoulders and say "but that's just the way the system is".  Following on from there, the question comes, what would you do about it if you had the power to do something abut this?

- would you say "sorry - it's always going to be complex and you need to research what you are buying - just as you do at the supermarket"?
- would you wring your hands each time you're criticised and find someone to carry the can for overcharging?
- would you modify the system around the edges to help make it easier to buy the best priced product?
- would you revise the system to the extent that it's a new system which automatically provides at best price?

Its a perfectly acceptable way of splitting tickets as far as ticket office is concerned, for example if someone has a network or senior card we should be activly asking and offering a single up and discounted single back, the splits which can not be suggested are when you are asked for point a to point c and suggest a combination of tickets and end up selling a-b and b-c, all the retailer is obliged to do is tell you if the split is valid for the journey and times, but putting aside the money side of it the fact that the restrictions and routing can change it can get very complicated... ive know someone get in to bother with a salisbury to birmingham ticket which as they had a network card decided to split at banbury but they then decided to return via bristol, something you can do on the threw ticket .... something that gets you a nice little pf when you split

Brief mention of FGW statement on the today programme this am.

I wonder who has the courage to cut the Gordian knot that rail fares have become?

Well if the government is stopping the flexing of fares then it will be impossible for companies to sort it out at all for regulated fares without loosing revenue. 

On the general point of the thread:

In my experience is that if you just go and ask for a return to London, FGW staff will ask you when you are going and when you are coming back and will sell you the peak outward and off-peak single for the return journey if that is cheapest.  They will also make sure you know the time restrictions. 

What hey will not offer you, unless you ask, is for a split ticket.  However, once you do ask for a split at a location, they will sell you the cheapest tickets splitting at that location.  So ask for a Swindon to Paddington split at Didcot and they will sell you a Day Return from Didcot to Paddington, a peak single to Didcot and a Super Off Peak single back from Didcot.

Now if only the machines could be so intelligent!

I was renewing my Network Card yesterday at DID which is one of the rare occasions I'm at the counter. Whilst queuing I could hear the gist of a long conversation between the clerk and two passengers working out what was the best arrangement for a complicated journey sequence.

If ticketing was done by ITSO with checking in and out as necessary enroute in theory it could cope with such things as capping a day/period return to match the time of day for each portion etc. What would go would be split ticketing especially of the esoteric kind involving a rover for the middle part of a journey etc.

Is it just me that gets suspicious when they see this kind of thing?
In that Telegraph article, this is not a direct quote:

So that's clear, isn't it? You can't go in and say where you are going and ask what ticket you should buy. But of course we know you can, and it is referred to later in the article.

Then they do quote this answer, but  not the question that was asked.

So is that just about someone who asks for a particular ticket? It does read that way.

Turn it round - if you do know what ticket to buy, having done the trip before or done the research, should you still be quizzed about whether some alternative would suit you better? Done thoroughly, it would slow things down by a big factor.

However, one point not raised here is that as more ticketing transactions are done vie machines and other semi-human processes, the proportion of booking office customers in the "needs advice" category is presumably rising. So you could suggest that booking office customers should now be assumed to be na^ve, and always asked if they are sure of their choice, not assumed to be knowledgeable unless they explicitly ask for advice.

I think if I walked up to a ticket  office and asked for (ie) the cheapest available return from London to Plymouth, I'd expect exactly that - the cheapest fare whether its a return, two singles, Advance, off peak whatever, but I wouldn't expect the guy in the office to calculate every single possible combination of split tickets etc, so I think there's a bit of give and take necessary here?

Rock up at Bristol TM at 0700 on a weekday and ask for the cheapest return to London returning around 1800 the same day, and you will be sold, without further queries from the clerk, the ^197.00 Anytime Return. That's despite there being a fare that matches the request for ^118 less.

Sadly not, I recently witnessed a passenger almost get sold an anytime return for a Saturday day return. I intervened/interrupted the sale and spoke with the passenger. The passenger ended up with the suitable cheapest ticket for his needs and shook my hand afterwards. He had simply asked for a return to x.

That is sad - I am so glad to be served by the excellent staff at Swindon. 

On one occasion I asked for a Birmingham ticket split at Cheltenham.  They were most careful to check that I understood that although it was cheaper it was restricted to trains via Stroud so I could not do the Bristol parkway alternative.  Though I suppose a more suspicious mind might suggest that they were trying to put me off, I disagree and consider this to be excellent customer service.

Thoughts - why not just sell that ticket as route restricted Stroud?

Indeed, and that's what computers are for.

I have, on the bench behind me, a 2008 machine (http://www.zdnet.com/product/sun-microsystems-sun-fire-x4450/) which is capable of calculating the best cycling route between any two points in North America or Western Europe using the massive OpenStreetMap data set. Once the precalculations are done, it finds even a cross-continent route in milliseconds.

The guy in the office shouldn't be required to work it out. He should just tap "from Paddington, to Plymouth, leaving now, coming back on Wednesday" and the computer should find the best fares for him. If a computer program can't be written to do this, then the fares system is too complex... and yes, I know that it is too complex, but it's not that complex. FGW, and the whole industry, are just choosing not to solve this problem.

Which would that be? struggling to get the online sites to produce a ^79 fare

If you read the Guardian version then it states it references to a passengers complaint by email.  Without seeing the whole complaint it's impossible to comment.

I'm guessing, it's along the lines of this:
If you buy a ticket for the 0828 Reading to Bristol Temple Meads it is a peak-time for the whole journey, however,
If you were to join the same train at Didcot or Swindon, it is classed as off-peak

If the individual is complaining that they should have been offered a peak-time single Reading to Didcot/Swindon and then an off-peak single from Didcot/Swindon to Bristol Temple Meads they would be incorrect and their complaint is not justifiable as TOC's are not obliged to offer split tickets unless specifically requested by the customer.

I was rounding down. The cheapest fare matching that request is ^79.10.

 ;D see even forum members assume that by saying london they mean paddington :-p

South West Trains into London Waterloo??  I would never had even considered that! 

online booking sites only offer singles at those times.....~I tried Wednesday next week

I think the point is an online booking site doesn't automatically give you that option.  If you input BTM to London (all) it automatically lists Paddington.  If you want cheaper/slower you need to click onto another link and then on the site I looked at, for a first time traveller, it gets confusing.

I put London Waterloo in the booking engine to force it...

Historically, there's been an assumption that longer distance journeys are out one day and back another and if someone simply asks for a return ticket ... then they will sell maximum flexibility.   The same argument applies to someone asking for "3 returns to xxxx" not being sold Groupsave on the basis that they might not be coming back together, or returning on one of the rare blackout days.   Sell superoffpeak, sell groupsave and if the people coming back ARE on another day or not together, they'll get pretty upset when challenged by revenue protection.

Question, richwarwicker - was the sale being made from a railway company run ticket office, or from a ticket agent, or by a conductor?

You get exactly the same 'feature' if checking fares from Southampton to London Terminals.   The Southern services to Victoria that go round the houses via Gatwick are 'lost' to the basic enquiry because they are all overtaken by subsequent Waterloo services; journey times being broadly an hour slower, a bit like Exeter to 'London' ignores Waterloo.

I don't see an easy answer.  Should everyone who asks for a ticket to 'London' be assumed to want the cheapest option, or the fastest most direct option? 

What proportion of people asking to go to London from Exeter (or Southampton in my example) would realistically take the slow option if offered, and does that proportion really mean everyone should be asked?

Paul

I know that if you ask at the EXD ticket office for a 'return to London', you will be asked whether you want PAD or WAT and also booking engines will list both options if you select 'London'

I do think you could be asked which London station you want to travel to at stations like these that have obviously two 'direct' (ie no change of train) services....and informed which is cheaper but longer.


good to see some are on the ball....

If you ask at a booking office for the cheapest, you should be advised of the cheapest route. And informed about the journey time.

To not do so goes against impartial retailing rules.

From the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement (http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-settlement-plan/governance/) that operators must abide by as part of their franchise agreement:


Note the words 'obligation', 'requirements', 'must', in that extract from the TSA.

I have long held the view that the present fares system is not only hugely over complex but is plainly daft in other ways.
It is clearly sensible to have lower fares at less busy times and higher fares at peak times, but I see no merit whatsoever in the fare being determined by when the ticket is booked, rather than by the time of travel.

I likewise see no merit in the present system whereby holders of cheap tickets get an automatic seat reservation, whilst those who paid the full fare have to stand.

I have previously suggested that for any journey, only 3 fares should be available (in each class).
Which of these 3 fares applies should be determined by how busy the train is likely to be, and never by when the ticket is purchased.
To contain the greed of TOCs, they should not be permitted to charge the highest fare on more than 25% of the trains that they run, and they should be required to make the lowest fares available on at least 25% of their trains.
Subject to the above, a train could be re categorised as loadings change, but only at timetable changes.

I would not prohibit split ticketing, but with a more rational fare structure it should seldom produce any gain.

Fares should be what they used to be, i.e 1st Single or Return, 3nd Single or return from to A to B.    It is the only way to escape from the complicated maze to try and plough through and which are deliberately complicated to make it awkward for the customer in the hope they will not understand them enough, thus not opting for the cheapest fare.

When were fares ever like that?

Fgw operated ticket office. The blokes destination has no peak time return journey. He was going to a low frequency station where the first departure is just after 10am.

Ah - (http://www.wellho.net/pix/newkey.jpg) perhaps.

But he could have split his return journey overnight and carried on at peak time on a following day, or indeed only used part of his return ticket?   Pretty unlikely, I will admit!

The reason for my question was to see if the seller was going to make a commission - but I see that's not the case.

A simple standard question surely could be asked by both ticket clerks and TVMs- "fastest or cheapest?"- works in Italy.

My aged aunt, although in her 80s, is still very sprightly and likes to travel around.    She is one of the old school and although might have heard of or even seen a Computer has no idea as to how to operate them.   She has nobody to turn to for help and usually goes to the nearest FGW to purchase her tickets in advance and has always received good advise re fares.      Although a hypothetical, actual type of scenario, this is something FGW are not going to give two hoots about.