Great Western Coffee Shop

A new proposal from Somerset, being advocated by several attendees at the RailFuture conference yesterday (though not, be it stressed, Railfuture sponsored)

http://somersetdistrictandcircleline.com

I like the route idea, but not the rolling stock one.

Indeed, 40ish miles of main line running with stock restricted to 60mph would not be ideal.

A station at Langport, with a population of less that 5,000, will probably require flows other than residents to come up with a good BCR ... and I fear that there's a lot of paths gobbled up by that slow train; not too much of a problem at the moment, but with the aspiration of 3 hours to Plymouth plus high speed regional services, some careful diagrams would be needed at the least in the future, would they not?

Langport and Somerton are part of large swathe of south central Somerset that is more than 10 miles from a railhead. More than a 5000 passenger base I suggest.

There's also the Local Plans for these areas specifying more housing. Although, as you'd expect, there's a great deal of resistance, nay Nimbyism, to such plans.

By the way, the idea of bringing LU rolling stock to this part of the world has already been suggested:

http://carryonlangport.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/piccadilly-line.html?m=1

Regards,

bignosemac

(Temporary resident of the Langport area annoyed at having to rely on woeful bus services. Who would be delighted to become a regular user of a reopened Langport station).

Is this concern about paths and diagrams actually closer to home grahame,  rather than about aspirational journey times to Plymouth?

Slotting in a 'Somerset' loop service via Trowbridge, Westbury, Frome and Castle Cary could have an effect on TransWilts and Heart of Wessex aspirations.
 
What about a Swindon to Taunton inter regional service? Re-double Thingley to Bradford...

Local services between Westbury and Taunton can be kept out of the way of Devon and Cornwall expresses with existing infrastructure. You've got the Westbury avoider and Frome loop. It's only really Castle Cary to Cogload that may be a pinch point,  but that isnt a really heavily used section. I'm sure an hourly service calling at Somerton, then Langport, could be fitted in. Be that a 'Somerset Loop' service or Swindon-Taunton...

Of course I fully understand the TransWilts focus is the other way toward Salisbury.

I would have thought the main capacity issue for this circle would be from Bristol to Bath. Bearing in mind the proposal for MetroWest. 

It struck me in James White's presentation at Metro West on Saturday, when he talked about population areas and work areas, that  Bath was shown as "+9000 jobs" with no additional residence at all nearby, and that's because Wiltshire is not part of West of England ... but that's where the balancing residential is from.

West of England has a half-hourly local service Temple Meads, Keynsham, [Saltford}, Oldfleld Park, Bath Spa ... one service already in place extends Freshford, Avoncliff, Bradford-on-Avon, Trowbridge - Westbury with "some services continuing" - Brighton, Warminster, Frome, Weymouth.   The second service is an interesting one - reversal in the platform at Bath seems out (though the CrossCountry service to (?) Edinburgh does so) and there are looks at Bathampton Junction, and at extending to Westbury; an alternative would be to {Corsham}, Chippenham [Bay], {Royal Wootton Bassett} and Swindon, with an electric unit.  In the "Westbury" mix - or indeed without it - there's sense in extending more services to / via Frome, with hourly TransWilts becoming the second train south of Westbury to Salisbury and beyond.

If/when we have a Plymouth and Cornwall express and an Exeter semi-fast via Berks and Hants and Castle Cary, that two-hourly service would provide a far improved Frome - Taunton link than we have at present, and I do wonder about an extra call between Castle Cary and Taunton.   Question in my mind is would such a station generate extra new traffic to sufficient level, or would much of the traffic be abstracted from park-and-ride at Castle Cary to park-and-ride at the new station?   Still a potential improvement if it's much easier to get to the new station, but not all a bed of roses.   I don't see Castle Cary being so busy that it can't cope and could do with relief, except on a handful of special days each year.

Well, I do hope there is to be no, "I'm alright Jack", attitude from neighbouring campaign groups worried about their paths and flows.

Could this be an ideal service to extend from Taunton to the WSR (Norton end), thereby reestablishing a connection?

Via Mangotsfield? (Sorry, did I say that out loud?)

Yes, so do I - I hope there's a working together to combine flows and services to make better business cases.

Feeding into Westbury from the north ... you have hourly (potentially half hourly) local from Bristol and beyond, and two-hourly (potentially hourly?) from Swindon.   Onward to the south - looking at Weymouth, at Salisbury / Southampton, at shorter journeys to Warminster and Frome, and at aspirations such as Taunton via Langport and at Radstock - North Somerset Railway were also at Railfuture - see http://www.northsomersetrailway.com :


My bolding in there - those works indicate national connection to me, rather than isolated heritage aspiration.

In the proposed route: "a circular route through , Langport, Taunton, Bridgwater, Weston-super Mare, Bristol, Bath, Bradford on Avon, Trowbridge Westbury, Frome, Bruton, Castle Cary, Somerton, Upton and back to Langport. The number of reopened stations will depend on the funds we can raise from the government and local communities" where is Upton?

About the rest of the route, it strikes me that Frome, for instance, although within what might be called the 'Greater Bristol and Bath commuting zone' is rather an oddity here, due to the roundabout route the rails go, heading north-east to reach destinations that are to the west (Bristol, Bath, Bradford). So I can't see, on that basis (but I don't really know much about this) that being a popular route when it's in competetion with cars and buses. Frome to Somerton and Taunton, and the other direction to Westbury for connections to Melksham(!), Swindon, Warminster and beyond, on the other hand, seems far more likely. But then that bit is there already.

Edit: Ok, found Upton, in the place suggested by the route list, between Somerton and Langport. Seems very small to have any hope of getting a station.

The rather ambitious Somerset Circle Line seems an unlikely scheme to succeed in the present circumstances. But if a small miracle were to occur in the shape of Langport and/or Somerton stations reopening, plus the ready availability of refurbished LU units, the best scheme would surely to have a Norton Fitzwarren - Castle Cary shuttle. When the WSR is closed the termination point would be Taunton.

This new service would mean the good people of Langport and Somerton could change at Taunton for journeys westward, or east to Bristol and the north. Eastbound they would change at ' Cary for Weymouth, London, Bath etc. By doing this, and not extending any further towards Frome & Westbury, main line HSTs would not be inconvenienced. Any thoughts?

Carrying on to at least Frome gets potential local services totally out of the way of expresses. Terminating and turning back at Castle Cary seems fraught with problems. Ideally at least Westbury with a 4th platform.

As already said I dont think the ex District stock would be the answer. 60mph is too slow. 90mph Turbos on the other hand... only 10mph off current max line speed for HSTs between Westbury and Taunton, which is likely to be the same for Class 802s.

Ah, but thems in Frome 'aven't got a nyce farst mo-erway into Barf ...

Before I learned a bit into Frome, I would have shared the view that it's a natural bus ride into Bath or Bristol these days, and indeed Radstock's the same but more so - from Radstock (on the north Somerset proposal) you would head south to head north.  But in practise the roads aren't brilliant, they're over the hills and there is quite something of a rail flow already - with major and justified grumbles about gaps in service.  


Don't forget Trowbridge, London, and (1st through train starts in December!) Frome to Salisbury.  But actually catered for such that additional infill trains would be really useful; many connections at Westbury are based on what happens to pass through when rather being planned to connect.   That's historic and getting better (the 15:14 from Swindon to Westbury goes back to 15:12 on 14th December, making for a 66 minute earlier arrival into Portsmouth Harbour).

To some extent, the important thing for Frome is I suspect to get services that fill gaps and to get them onto the 'frequent' network. So that's to Westbury, and/or  to their county town of Taunton - achieved by the Somerset Circle.

Come the electrification recast, written in (at present) for December 2018, so much of the schedule and connectionallity at Westbury gets rewritten that the opportunities are there, and the Somerset Circle isn't only about linking those stations around Langport (and Frome) rather better, but about taking other service developments that may end-to-end nicely and liking part of it and them.

From the Western Gazette (http://www.westerngazette.co.uk/TRACK-Head-Parry-People-Movers-says-light-rail/story-28142345-detail/story.html)

I heard John Parry speak - and I'll admit to not having picked up the element of his talk headlined. The rest of that article is worth a read, and strikes me as being pretty accurate to his message.

That's a good explanation, grahame.

Worth taking a glance at some of the stuff in the WoE spatial plan, which relates development to transport in Greater Bristol: https://www.jointplanningwofe.org.uk/consult.ti/JSPIO2015/consultationHome

Cut down to a very short precis:
* People who live near Bath tend to work in Bath.
* People who live in North Somerset, Bristol and South Gloucestershire tend to work in Bristol.
* The best places to build new houses are places where there is already (or soon will be) a railway station, e.g. Nailsea, Portishead, Yate.

It puts this Somerset aspiration into context when you spot that Thornbury - which would in many ways seem a good place to develop - is ruled out. You'd think it would be possible to generate a case for the Thornbury branch, but as far as I can see it isn't considered. Here it is, in terms:

"The first step resulted in a number of locations being discounted on the grounds of relatively limited travel choices, including Thornbury, Clevedon and Midsomer Norton and Radstock."

 
Absolutely nothing in that Western Gazette article that covers the practicalities, or rather, impracticalities of using Parry People Movers between Somerton and Langport. Slower even than the Class 230 ex LU polished turds. The WG has given excellent coverage to the campaign to reopen stations in Somerton and Langport but I'm at a bit of a loss with this article.

A total non-starter.

Unless by 'West Somerset Railway is closed' you mean it is undergoing maintenance, I would be inclined to say Norton Fitzwarren when the WSR is running and Minehead when it isn't. Although, I suppose, there is a railway-bus to Minehead (I assume it accepts rail tickets since you can see its timetable on the rail journey planners, I wonder if the railway connditions of carriage (taxi if you miss the last connection because the railway has delays) also apply) so perhaps it isn't as much of a priority as running through national rail services onto other Heritage railways in their off season.

We're moving off topic (and I'm not discouraging it / thread can be split) ... but certainly D-Train would be appropriate west of Taunton to Minehead. 

Linking from Castle Cary / Frome, and Minehead?  I see two schemes, neither of which is close and neither of which is on a "probable' list - yet? ... and I don't see great through traffic; as an educated guess it would be "all off, all on" at Taunton with a through service.  Therefore I would think for people / groups to progress the two independently so that if one falls or is delayed, it does not bring down the other, bt they can take advantage of each other if both progress.

The TransWilts case - which lead to the improved service in 2013 - included operational evaluation for two additional stops along the way, but did not depend on them. So there was/is a hook for two new stations, but no requirement for them in order to make the service work.

HSTs not inconvenienced? except between Norton Fitzwarren and Cary.

I agree with those who think the whole scheme is fanciful dreaming. Nevertheless, for all that , it is fun to speculate. A DMU shuttle terminating from the west at Castle Cary could use a refurbished cattle dock adjacent to platform one, and join the exclusive band of stations with a platform 0. Although the requirement for a facing turnout on the up main may have an effect on non stopping up fasts.

Tangentially related question: I hear this line, from Taunton through Frome to Westbury and on to Reading, is known as the Hants & Berks line, although only a little of it is in Berkshire and I don't think it enters Hampshire at all. So why? Surely it would be better known as the Wilts & Somerset?

I was thinking of a through service with sprinters, thus when cut back from Minehead to Norton Fitzwarren to allow steam trains to operate the sprinters would be available for holiday-time strengthing of services elsewhere on the GWR franchise.

Anyway, going back to the first post in this topic... That doesn't quite sound like the Vivarail "D-Train" (class 230). I assumed the class 230 is powered by diesel, not biomethane, and I've not heard the Circle line mentioned as their point of origin before, only the District line.

That stock was interchangeable between those two lines, I believe

I seem to recall reading somewhere that it's a mixture of aspirations when built, and a redrawing of county boundaries.   The original line ran to from Reading to Hungerford ... extending via Patney and Chirton to Devizes, with the Lavington cutoff added much later ...

Berks and Hants railway also included Reading to Basingstoke.

The latest on the campaign to reopen stations in Langport and Somerton from the Western Gazette print edition of 12th November 2015.

(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/Mobile%20Uploads/langport_zpspi3tbe3t.jpg)

As far as i lnow D stock was confined to the Southern circle from Gloucester Road/High Street Kensington and Aldgate East. C stock worked the District Line  Wimbledon Edgware Road service as well as Circle and Hammersmith and City. D and C stock shared tracks from Wimbleon to Barking via Victoria