Great Western Coffee Shop

Already mooted, but apparently (according to The Times) confirmed in the Chancellor's Autumn Statement. Presumably to be split away from the GWR franchise on next renewal (2019?)

More specifically,


Spending review and autumn statement 2015 (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/spending-review-and-autumn-statement-2015-documents/spending-review-and-autumn-statement-2015#a-devolution-revolution-1)

But presumably as there is nothing in the SW, (i.e. present SWT) franchise consultation, they've abandoned that earlier idea of taking over the Waterloo - Exeter route as well?

Paul

Given that the current GW franchise runs to 2019 plus one year option, and the transition that it was intended to cover may last longer than that, it may well line up well enough with the next SWT franchise but one. The current bids are for 7-9 years plus a one year option, so it can end in 2024. presumably any handover to a new franchise can be phased a couple of years later than its start anyway.

 Two franchises running alongside each other seems logical, perhaps they could call
 it 'Wessex Trains'.

The phrase "for Devon and Cornwall" is a bit ambiguous - it could mean "limited to the area of Devon and Cornwall", but could it not alternatively be interpreted mean "serving all the needs of Devon and Cornwall", which would include connecting them to the capital via the Waterloo - Exeter route?

In the context of the Peninsula Rail Task Force: LSWR, anyone?

And who provides the cross border services?

I'm of the thinking they're referring to local services here....

If DfT have yet to discuss with outsiders and produce a report with options, there is no single "new franchise" to describe. However, no doubt there is a departmental view. I suspect it will ultimately depend on whether the DfT view is that big franchises are best, or whether smaller ones work better and these relatively big ones ought to be subdivided.

In which case wouldn't it also need to include the class 802 Paddington to Plymouth/Penzance trains. Rather than GWR's 'building a greater west' it would become 'Lesser Western', with INTERCITY routes due to be cut in 2018 and again at the end of the franchise if the Devon & Cornwall franchise happens and takes over London trains.

which they won't as it'll abstract a lot of the profit from the GW franchise. Hence my opinion it means what it says....Devon & Cornwall services.

And I'm sure the DfT has been talking to the councils/transport bodies as I reckon it's they that are lobbying for this

So the Greater Western franchise keeps Cardiff-Paignton, Bristol-Penzance, Cardiff/Bristol-Exeter? Or terminates them all at Taunton?

Does the D&C franchise do likewise - going no further than Tiverton Parkway?

Some very interesting discussions to be had, me thinks.

Please note that I'm playing Devil's advocate here ...

It's often surprised me when travelling in Europe across certain borders such as Netherlands to Belgium, Netherlands to Germany, France to Germany just how few trains actually cross the border - you have national networks with just the occasional very slim link across (such as Venlo) - but so much of that comes with there being 2 nations.  If you're looking at devolution for Cornwall, does Devon follow and how much does that then move us towards a federal United Kingdom, or even independence for the "Peninsular" - and when you get to that point, demand is probably going to be for trains that turn around at Taunton from the east, at Exeter from the west, with internationalesque services calling at Exeter and Taunton, running not very frequently, and not requiring to be wildly fast due to the economic separation of Peninsularia (that new country) from England.

Taking a less provocative and intermediate approach (which is what it looks like the Peninsula rail group wants) there's a look for them to operate trains in their own area ... logic could be for them to run the "London"s too, with GWR being a territory-based franchised based on services from London via Didcot and Swindon.  There's another logical option that suggests the London to Peninsular services, because they run across between Franchise areas, could from that point be operated by CrossCountry.

I know you're not stupid....what do you think?

GWR retains them - and neither do I consider them *local* services, frankly

No idea as I've seen no firm proposals of what this Devon & Cornwall franchise will or won't do. It's hardly been confirmed, as suggested in the OP. A report with options is all that has been asked for by government. That's why I'm asking questions. What could those options be. The Peninsular Rail Task Force includes Somerset County Council who may well want a say on services to Taunton, Yeovil, Bridgwater, Crewkerne, Templecombe...

Pray tell, what do you consider local, and why should the Greater Western franchisee (not necessarily GWR remember) keep cross border regional services, or indeed London to peninsular services? Because they are profitable? Doesn't that rather condemn a D&C franchise to heavy subsidy?


Neither do I. I brought them up as they are services that provide for local journeys in Devon and Cornwall but start/end outside those counties.

Ah..! Lovely to see the Xmas spirit in action!  :) :) :)

Since when has Somerset been interested in rail? :-)
Reasonable question, which I suspect only the DfT & the Peninsular Rail Task Force know currently, but that's more likely to transfer services from SWT?


As are the local services in the summer. And shoulder summer. I said GW franchise, not GWR Franchise. I consider those contained within those counties & possibly any that just cross the borders. Note it's termed Devon & Cornwall, so unlikely to include Somerset?

As well as not being stupid, I can also read.



London Midland serve Liverpool. ScotRail serves Carlisle.

touch^, my typo

And those are TOCs, not franchise names - but I take your point, what are the franchises called....

West Midlands franchise
ScotRail franchise

So the first is even worse. It dares to serve areas outside it's name in many directions. North West, East Midlands, London.

Could be called Devon and Cornwall Railways? I understand there are a couple of locos ready and waiting  :)

If it gets Tavistock reopened and passenger services to Okehampton then I'm all for it (even though I'm not sure what "it" is yet)

That said, FGW have pretty much done quite well with what they inherited

To my mind the cross border trains remain GWR/XC/SWT.  It is the trains within Devon and Cornwall that would transfer.   The logic of combining franchises was to minimise the number of operators on the busiest of sections.  Having another operator through Bristol and the Thames Valley would be adding unnecessary complexity.  Except perhaps the sleeper!

Wasn't another logic of combining franchises to group lines/areas requiring subsidy with lines/areas that were profitable?

No.  All GWR, XC and SWT services terminate at Exeter, and from there westbound Devon and Cornwall becomes one big branch line :P ::)

I just wonder if the future GWR franchise, minus everything west of Exeter, would be more or less attractive to potential franchisees in future? In terms of political clout a new Devon & Cornwall setup I suppose would be a pretty viable thing given the Conservative/Lib Dem tension in many west country seats. This dynamic might even be a positive thing regarding the potential reopening of the Okehampton-Plymouth route. Who knows!

The movers and shakers in Devon & Cornwall have to do business with the movers and shakers in London. Give this new franchise some paths to London, stimulate a bit of competition.

If we are to persist with this franchise model, should one operator have a monopoly on long distance travel to the far west of England and South Wales?