Great Western Coffee Shop

This has appeared in today's Dorset Echo.

http://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/news/14145416.Train_journey_times_to_London_could_be_slashed_if_new_multi_million_pound_project_gets_green_light/

This is the first I've heard of this, not sure what to make of it. Is it a serious proposal?

If it is a serious proposal, it has next to no chance of happening...  ;)

When you first read about something like this in local rag it's hard to take seriously. I would have thought redoubling Dorchester to Moreton and adding a bit more juice to the third rail would be cheaper then redoubling and resignalling Dorchester to Yeovil, not to mention building a link to Yeovil Junction off the line from Dorchester.

To me this is a non-story unless someone can come with something from Network Rail, ORR or Dft.

"The track does not have enough electricity".  ::) I presume they mean it has third-rail electrification, which cannot power a train to such high speeds as OLE.

The Bournemouth to Weymouth 3rd rail DC electrification was done on the cheap.  It didn't have more than an hourly service at the time so the number of sub-stations were kept to a minimum and hence the operating restrictions in place today.  You have to remember the railway was in decline at the time so don't blame BR for a lack of forthought ::)

The Weymouth to London time is now barely less than at electrification as the gains have been eaten into by additional stops after Southampton, such as Winchester, Basingstoke, Woking etc, (completely non stop at one time) although there are now two services within a clock hour. Some local journeys are longer due to the skip stopping up to Christchurch.

So it's a genuine currant shortage rather than a lack of voles. Still, I say  ::) once again to sloppy journalism.

Hmm. In defence of journalists (did I really type that??), yore speling is apauling.  ;) :D ;D



(And, to be fair, I am far from immune to making typos myself!).  :-X

Well, that issue needs raisin with Network Rail. And perhaps Kenneth Grahame.  :P ;) ;D

Kenneth Grahame wrote about moles, rather than voles, though.  ;)

Ratty was a water vole.  ;)

You are absolutely right (as usual).  :-[

On the subject of typos, I like Bignosemac's new sig line. But I think we have Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials series to thank for the voles and currants, or at least their popularisation.

Back to Weymouth, or at least Yeovil:
Couldn't they use the chord (I think that's the correct term) that runs roughly from Yeovil Penn Mill to Yeovil Junction? Sure, it would mean reversing twice and add unnecessary distance but I don't think those are serious problems as I don't think they're really going to do it.

They could but that would add around 15 minutes to the journey time which just adds to the theory that this is a non-starter.

I think the logic goes the other way. If it is never going to be more than an "unfunded aspiration", adding the cost of a new chord just makes it more unfundable - so what?

Replace "Fast route Weymouth, Yeovil, Salisbury to Waterloo" by "Route Weymouth, Yeovil, Salisbury and perhaps Waterloo" and you may just be surprised at some point.  The Wessex "territory" between Westbury / Salisbury / Yeovil / Weymouth is border country between First and Stagecoach franchises, and the current drift is to make innovative little changes that just might make a big difference.

This proposal is a lever to put pressure on the franchising bidders. Miss Perry isn't asking Network Rail to prepare a report but rather put it into the consultation exercise for SWT franchise.

There is no way Weymouth would justify 3 services an hour to/from Waterloo. Stand on Dorchester South and see the modest number of passengers travelling on the electric units. A vast amount of expenditure to save 20 or 30 minutes for how many passengers....Mmmm. Where is the new pathway into Waterloo - we are told that capacity has already been reached. Diesel units would be required - where would they be serviced? Salisbury already full.

Now if it was proposed that some through services Exeter to Yeovil Junction/Pen Mill and onto Weymouth might be introduced that would make more sense. Connections at Yeovil into Salisbury and Waterloo trains (may be combined with a through Oxford service?). The infrastructure is already there (but requires enhancement anyway).

Doesn't it just boil to the same old argument - "I don't see why my personal journey from <random country terminus> all the way to London should have to be slowed down by other people  who want to make perfectly reasonable intermediate journeys?"

So what if trains used to run non-stop between Southampton and Waterloo.   They were different times, and in the real world they won't be coming back.    The whole point of Southampton Parkway was to remove car journeys into the City for passengers getting London trains, and Winchester has to have some sort of fast service.

Paul

I don't think there was anyone foreseeing  - or even advocating - the removal of the stops further in to London - but I can certainly remember when I lived there the loud trumpeting of the speed up of the end-to end service to be achieved by the electrification which has dwindled now nearly to nothing. As is common on today's railway though the frequency of service is more, as the former semi fast service never made it to Weymouth, terminating at Bournemouth or Poole.

An earlier thread indicates plans for a SWT summer service Salisbury to Weymouth via Yeovil

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=15428.0

Parliamentary discussion (http://www.theyworkforyou.com/whall/?id=2015-12-15a.505.1&s=speaker%3A24903#g505.2) of the concept.

Surely that is going to involve the double-reversal between the two Yeovil stations?

Yes, back in the 70s/80s the "91"s did it non stop to Southampton every hour in 1 hr 7 mins with the rattling REP's living up to their name at their top speed of 90 mph. Usually 12 cars too, with the front four being the TC that had the 33 attached at Bournemouth for the onward journey. The frequency to Southampton today is effectively the same though, with two TPH (the journey time of the third service doesn't make it particularly attractive). Just 7 minutes slower though at 1 hr 14 mins for the fastest off peak journey.

A different world then...

I had memories of the ratting ride myself with the jolt on starting - and the 8 carriages or so to walk to the buffet car, although sometimes a pair of stewards walking down with the tea and coffee pots would save you the trouble.

That is correct - good to serve both Yeovil stations? Should services ever be introduced from Exeter-Weymouth then only one reversal at Yeovil Pen Mill is involved.

There have been proposals for a West to South Curve at Yeovil which would mean only one reversal.

Ha.  I drew out a signalling scheme sketch for that back in 1998.  Now I wonder what happened to that idea ::):P..........

The formation for a west to south curve was made in the 1860s as part of the GWR Clifton Maybank goods line. However it was never used but it can still be traced.

In the 1980s there was an idea to provide a halt near Two Bridges, where the lines cross. The idea grew in size and became unaffordable.

The current edition of The Railway Magazine has an article on the line from Exeter to Basingstoke mentioning possible future upgrades. The author John Heaton was the area manager at Exeter for a time.

Weymouth to Waterloo via Yeovil and Salisbury can of course be done with just one reversal.

I can't think how though, other than going via Castle Cary and reversing at Westbury.

Yep.

The parliamentary discussion can be viewed here

http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/9821192f-f0cd-41f4-87fd-9b7118bfd9ab

A less expensive option would be to use the "original" route to Weymouth from London Paddington.  Currently HSTs take 1 hour 30 mins from Paddington to Castle Cary.  Current journey time from Castle Cary to Weymouth is one hour.  With infrastructure/signalling improvements, especially around Yeovil Pen Mill/Maiden Newton, this could be reduced by ten minutes, giving a journey time from London Paddington to Weymouth of around 2 hours 20 minutes, and Dorchester West around ten minutes less.

The current service from London Paddington to Castle Cary could be increased to hourly with alternate trains serving Taunton/Exeter or Weymouth.  Yeovil would benefit from a two-hourly fast train to London from the better-sited station of Yeovil Pen Mill, close to all the massive new housing developments.

There are already proposals to reinstate double track between Castle Cary and Yeovil Pen Mill.  This would give added impetus to this project.

There is huge potential for improved train services between Yeovil and London.  Yeovil Pen Mill to Paddington is a faster and more convenient route than via Yeovil Junction.

I reckon a station at Sparkford would be nice, while we're at it!

I'd still like to know how. Just out of curiosity.

With reversal at Westbury ... indeed from last Monday SWT are running a direct Yeovil to Waterloo service via this route.   

I was in Frome this morning, and it would be fair to say that some of my contacts feel that timing of the new service isn't ideal.    Interestingly, while there's now a train from Yeovil and Frome to Westbury at the end of the working day to take potential commuters home, there remains a gap in getting people to work in either town from West Wiltshire

Thanks. That's how I was thinking it might be done. Makes sense from Yeovil but rather circuitous from Weymouth or Dorchester. In fact, even from Yeovil, once you're at Westbury wouldn't it be quicker to carry on to Reading and Paddington? Anyway, that's possible even if not sensible!

The first main railway route from London to Weymouth was Paddington to Chippenham via the Great Western Railway maine, then south / west from Thingley Junction along the Wilts, Somerset and Weymouth, all of which is open to passenger trains today.

The second route was via London and Southampton, Brockenhurst and Wimbourne, and Wareham to Dorcherster where the line was originally intended to go straight ahead toward Exeter, but got turned left to join the board gauge lines (standard gauge had to be provided) to Weymouth

A major diversion to the second route - cutting out Wimborne and substituting Christchurch, Bournemouth and Poole, came later.  So in some way that route - now the main one - is the third route.

A logical express service from London to Weymouth could be to run them as 5 car bimode, attached to the 5 car bimode with a destination of Cheltenham Spa to Swindon, and dividing the train there.  Of course, with the hourly Swindon to Southampton Airport service sharing the now-single track section north of Trowbridge, it would probably need to be redoubled.

London to Weymouth via New England? That is a long way round!  :D

Thanks for the history.

Ah, a way of getting an extra platform for Melksham!  ;)

Though the time penalty of going via Swindon would be such that the service would no longer be any quicker than the existing SWT service.

Not according to a previous post


That is comparable to the faster journey time quoted via Salisbury

The Southampton and Dorchester was aimed at Falmouth for military purposes, leading to competition with central line schemes promoted by both narrow and broad gauge companies.
At one point the line was going to be leased by the GWR or its allies but eventually became part of the LSWR.
The Wilts, Somerset and Weymouth was set up as a blocking line to prevent a westward extension of the narrow gauge.
While the narrow gauge opened Dorchester in 1847 both the narrow and broad gauge companies reached Weymouth on the same days - the 20th of January 1857.

Returning to the new promotion I see it as a means of influencing the new SWT franchise. The minister gave the impression that it would not be done by NR but by a separate company, like Crossrail. Also it would be using a south to west curve.
It would appear to need a fast service calling at only Yeovil and Salisbury requiring significant infrastructure improvement.
Again the minister gave the impression that it might be some time away.
What is needed is a strategic plan for the two lines, looking at the future. This would need to explore the replacement of the 159s and possible electrification, the Devon Metro at the western end as well as this scheme.
The Railway Magazine article I mentioned above adds some detail to this.

But the existing service is not via Salisbury, but via Southampton and Poole, and takes c 2hrs 40m.  Via Swindon would take just under 2 hrs to CC, and then another 50 mins (say) to Weymouth. 

Let's not overlook the business case though.  Weymouth's population is around 65,000 with Poole and Bournemouth each being 3 times bigger - so the current service it gets is really enjoyed on the tail of that urban sprawl.  Send trains via Yeovil and you'll miss out that reason for such a good service, and I would suspect that the express Weymouth to London traffic doesn't on its own justfy the service.   Mind you, 65,000 people serving a tourist area has a lot more transport requirement than a town without such trade of the same population - for example Wrexham.

Major development at Yeovil, the idea of a developemnt corridor from Weymouth to Yeovil which has been mooted (I understand) by the LEP, and housing development around the halts could make a difference - but all I can do is ask questions as I don't know the area all that well.

Westbury to Reading ... none-stop trains diverted via Swindon currently take 10 inutes longer. And that involves three slow junctions - Heywood Road, Bradford and Thingley.  The latter two re-aligned to fast double track junctions would reduce that 10 minutes ..