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Title: TfL to take command of the capital's entire suburban rail network Post by: PhilWakely on January 21, 2016, 10:54:07 I'm not entirely sure whether this is 'news', but....
From the Evening Standard (http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/tfl-to-take-command-of-londons-entire-suburban-rail-network-a3161586.html) Quote TfL to take command of the capital's entire suburban rail network with London Overground All suburban rail services in the capital will be rebranded as London Overground (http://static.standard.co.uk/s3fs-public/styles/story_large/public/thumbnails/image/2015/01/05/13/LondonOverground.jpg) Embattled commuters should finally get more frequent and reliable train services after Transport for London confirmed today it would take control of the capital's suburban rail network. The long-running campaign to persuade ministers to devolve powers over services should increase capacity, eventually bringing an end to the cattle truck conditions for millions of Londoners, and improve accessibility. TfL plans to streamline fares and travel information across the whole suburban rail network, rebranding the services London Overground and turning the capital's transport map orange. Commuter services running from Cannon Street, Charing Cross, Moorgate, Victoria, Waterloo and London Bridge, which has suffered some of the worst delays, would all be transferred under the plans. With the capital's population set to rise from 8.6 million today to 10 million by 2030, the proposals should ensure the network is able to cope, especially in South London which is heavily reliant on surface rail. The new era for rail travel was hailed a victory for Boris Johnson who has spearheaded the campaign, which has cross-party support and was first initiated by Ken Livingstone, to take over control of each route as its franchise comes up for renewal. The Mayor told the Standard: "Our railways have been the workhorse of the London and South East economy since Victorian times. "They're key to the day to day lives of millions of people and vital to our future prosperity, and that's exactly why this new partnership is such a seminal moment. "By working closely together and taking on these new services, we're going to emulate the success of the London Overground and give the entire capital and surrounding areas the services they truly deserve." Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin added: ^We are committed to making journeys better across London and the South East, and this new partnership represents a huge opportunity to transform travel by putting passengers where they should be ^ at the heart of the rail network." The first route to come under the next Mayor's control will be Southeastern in 2018, followed by Southern, Thameslink and Great Northern services in 2021. The South West trains franchise is currently under negotiation but is likely to include a "break clause" that means it could be taken over in 2019. TfL, which will set up a joint management team with the Department of Transport, will run services which operate within the capital's boundaries while DfT officials will be responsible for the wider South East. The Mayor's control could stretch as far as Sevenoaks and Dartford in the South East, Epsom and Croydon in the South, Hampton and Chessington in the West and Hertford and Welwyn Garden City in the North. It could mean that more than 80 per cent of stations have a train every 15 minutes, up from 67 per cent today. Since TfL took over suburban rail routes from Silverlink in 2007 and created London Overground, passenger numbers on the routes have increased sixfold and the network has become one of the most popular railways anywhere in the country. The proposal means town halls, local enterprise partnerships and other regional bodies could play a more hands on role in how services are planned. Unlike most of the existing franchise agreements, income from fares would be handed over to TfL to invest in the network, for example bringing in new walk-through trains with more doors and staffing 100 per cent of stations during operating hours. However, huge sums would still be needed to bring the network up to scratch, especially across South London where demand is highest, at a time when TfL's finances will be under pressure. City Hall insiders suggested cash for investment could also be raised from the land value increase around stations, as well as from Network Rail and the Government. Title: Re: TfL to take command of the capital's entire suburban rail network Post by: ChrisB on January 21, 2016, 11:08:23 Hmmm - it's the launch of a consultation to do this.....typical gutter Evening Standard not to mention it.
https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/rail-passenger-services-in-london-and-the-south-east-a-new-approach Closing Date March 18 Title: Re: TfL to take command of the capital's entire suburban rail network Post by: IndustryInsider on January 21, 2016, 11:10:37 If and when it does happen I can see TfL finding it a lot harder to turn these new routes into the amazing success story of the rest of the London Overground network.
Title: Re: TfL to take command of the capital's entire suburban rail network Post by: ChrisB on January 21, 2016, 11:13:31 Indeed - there will be a lot of disgruntled ex-Southeastern/Southern pax in particular who are being persuaded TfL can do no wrong!
Title: Re: TfL to take command of the capital's entire suburban rail network Post by: paul7575 on January 21, 2016, 11:42:24 Now that I've read it through, the prospectus doesn't really say that all routes will be branded and run by LO, that's just the Evening Standard's usual rail policy coming through.
They'll probably keep trying to brainwash people into thinking that there'll be no standing passengers, if only LO takeover... I'm not convinced SWT would see such a massive improvement. TfL seem keen on doing away with guards for a start, and guards are generally considered one of the good things about the SWT suburban network. Another question is rolling stock. People discussing this on the web generally (since it started being widely 'leaked' over the last couple of weeks) seem to be running away with the idea that TfL would always introduce new rolling stock, but vast areas of Southern already have nearly brand-new 377s, and within a couple of years the SWT inners will have the Desiro City being delivered. Away from that the GN will have brand new Desiros running into Moorgate. There's no way TfL will build a financial case to use different stock, they'll have to use what they get surely? Paul Title: Re: TfL to take command of the capital's entire suburban rail network Post by: Tim on January 21, 2016, 11:47:50 I find it very strange that a Conservative like Boris, someone who could very likely be the next Tory leader and possibly a future PM, is promoting greater state control of railways and an gradual phasing out of the franchising system. Isn't that precisely the same thing that Corbyn, that supposedly hard-left dangerous radical is proposing on a national scale?
I also find it incongruous that TfL under Boris is running this campaign https://tfl.gov.uk/campaign/reinvesting-in-transport (https://tfl.gov.uk/campaign/reinvesting-in-transport) which trumpets the facts that ^We [TfL] don't make a profit because we reinvest all our income to run and improve your services ^We are a public body, with no shareholders or parent companies, which means we can reinvest every pound of income in the transport network Is that not making some of the same argument that the RMT makes when it is arguing for renationalising the national network? Socialism for London, Capitalism for everyone else. Title: Re: TfL to take command of the capital's entire suburban rail network Post by: paul7575 on January 21, 2016, 13:02:03 ^We [TfL] don't make a profit because we reinvest all our income to run and improve your services They still pay LOROL a management fee to operate LO though, and that contractor, a joint DB/MTR venture still intends to make a profit, doesn't it? If it only breaks even why bother competing for the contract in the first place? ^We are a public body, with no shareholders or parent companies, which means we can reinvest every pound of income in the transport network Paul Title: Re: TfL to take command of the capital's entire suburban rail network Post by: ChrisB on January 21, 2016, 13:06:27 TfL is a non-profit-making body - those it contracts*are* profit-making.
Title: Re: TfL to take command of the capital's entire suburban rail network Post by: paul7575 on January 21, 2016, 13:12:04 TfL is a non-profit-making body - those it contracts*are* profit-making. Exactly, it's just sleight of hand. If they were to just say that LOROL (and various other LU contractors) are paid a predictable management fee with various incentives that might be a bit better... Paul Title: Re: TfL to take command of the capital's entire suburban rail network Post by: Tim on January 22, 2016, 09:56:38 ^We [TfL] don't make a profit because we reinvest all our income to run and improve your services They still pay LOROL a management fee to operate LO though, and that contractor, a joint DB/MTR venture still intends to make a profit, doesn't it? If it only breaks even why bother competing for the contract in the first place? ^We are a public body, with no shareholders or parent companies, which means we can reinvest every pound of income in the transport network Paul True. But TfL doesn't play the silly franchise game which is the cause of many of the national network problems. Do you not think that the fact that a Tory Mayor has approved a major TfL advertising campaign telling people essentially that TfL is great because it is publically run (regardless of whether or not that is true) is, how might we say it, incongruous? Title: Re: TfL to take command of the capital's entire suburban rail network Post by: ellendune on January 22, 2016, 19:26:18 I have only skim read it but I don't see anywhere it defines what services it will cover. Is it just inner suburban or whole franchises (in which case Exeter (via Salisbury) would be considered part of London & the South East!
Title: Re: TfL to take command of the capital's entire suburban rail network Post by: Timmer on January 22, 2016, 19:45:29 I have only skim read it but I don't see anywhere it defines what services it will cover. Is it just inner suburban or whole franchises (in which case Exeter (via Salisbury) would be considered part of London & the South East! That is a good point and its not entirely clear. The way I read it would be just inner suburban with a standard franchise operating outer suburban and long distance services. But would a number of long distance and outer suburban would still stop at inner suburban stations e.g Clapham Junction and Bromley South? Pretty sure they would.Title: Re: TfL to take command of the capital's entire suburban rail network Post by: PhilWakely on January 22, 2016, 20:18:33 I have only skim read it but I don't see anywhere it defines what services it will cover. Is it just inner suburban or whole franchises (in which case Exeter (via Salisbury) would be considered part of London & the South East! I suspect it is just inner suburban services, but was Exeter not part of 'Network South East'?(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8115/8639109134_6a01dc397f_b.jpg) Title: Re: TfL to take command of the capital's entire suburban rail network Post by: ChrisB on January 23, 2016, 10:32:32 The press I've read all refer to services starting/finishing in/around the M25....so inner suburban.
However, the real problem is that very few if any routes have current spare paths in the peaks - so if TfL are going to start these up, what loses out?....either accelerated longer distance (so no stopping in places like Bromley South) or possibly fewer more inconvenient pathings? Title: Re: TfL to take command of the capital's entire suburban rail network Post by: Surrey 455 on January 23, 2016, 10:41:36 They'll probably keep trying to brainwash people into thinking that there'll be no standing passengers, if only LO takeover... Yes, with sideways seats there will definitely be more seats in the future, not less. ;) Title: Re: TfL to take command of the capital's entire suburban rail network Post by: ChrisB on January 23, 2016, 10:47:40 a long time into the future - a lot of the stock in those franchises is not old & TfL will take them on unchanged
Title: Re: TfL to take command of the capital's entire suburban rail network Post by: paul7575 on January 23, 2016, 14:02:43 The press I've read all refer to services starting/finishing in/around the M25....so inner suburban. However, the real problem is that very few if any routes have current spare paths in the peaks - so if TfL are going to start these up, what loses out?....either accelerated longer distance (so no stopping in places like Bromley South) or possibly fewer more inconvenient pathings? The M25 isn't a political boundary and isn't easily comparable to the Greater London (GLA) area. The latter is about the same area as the 6 main travelcard zones. What they have fairly consistently described, over a few years now, is taking control of all services that terminate within that Greater London area, and then any additional services that run through to a 'natural terminus' just outside where it would make no operational sense to split off a few stations. So looking just at the SWT area, they (TfL) have previously proposed that stoppers to Windsor would be in, but Reading would not. Shepperton, Epsom and Dorking would be in, but Woking and Guildford stoppers would be out. The possible 'return of NSE' has never been the aim, in any shape or form. Paul Title: Re: TfL to take command of the capital's entire suburban rail network Post by: ChrisB on January 23, 2016, 15:01:30 So looking just at the SWT area, they (TfL) have previously proposed that stoppers to Windsor would be in, but Reading would not. Shepperton, Epsom and Dorking would be in, but Woking and Guildford stoppers would be out. The press I've read all refer to services starting/finishing in/around the M25.... That does look as though you agree with me. Title: Re: TfL to take command of the capital's entire suburban rail network Post by: paul7575 on January 23, 2016, 15:26:23 So looking just at the SWT area, they (TfL) have previously proposed that stoppers to Windsor would be in, but Reading would not. Shepperton, Epsom and Dorking would be in, but Woking and Guildford stoppers would be out. The press I've read all refer to services starting/finishing in/around the M25.... That does look as though you agree with me. It's only because of the coincidence that the M25 happens to match the rail route extents in some areas. But that doesn't make it the intention of TfL does it? It's more to do with some members of the press confusing London with the area within the M25... Paul Title: Re: TfL to take command of the capital's entire suburban rail network Post by: ChrisB on January 23, 2016, 15:40:55 No, I don't think so - Boris J has been quoted as mentioning services within the M25 on TV news and in print. TfLs intentions definitely extend beyond the GLA area.....
Title: Re: TfL to take command of the capital's entire suburban rail network Post by: paul7575 on January 23, 2016, 15:58:52 No, I don't think so - Boris J has been quoted as mentioning services within the M25 on TV news and in print. TfLs intentions definitely extend beyond the GLA area..... The text of the DfT prospectus has this: This proposal includes the transfer of responsibility from the DfT to TfL for inner suburban rail services that operate mostly or wholly within Greater London, as current franchises fall due for renewal. My bold, the M25 is not mentioned. Just another Boris soundbite with no real justification. Paul Title: Re: TfL to take command of the capital's entire suburban rail network Post by: stuving on January 23, 2016, 16:19:52 I'm not sure how anyone could really respond to this as a consultation document. It doesn't propose how the split of responsibility would be reflected in services, nor does it pose any questions. It's more of an advert, or perhaps a manifesto.
If you look at the web page with the link, it lists five bullet points. Setting aside what is already planned to happen, we can look in the document for what is added by the proposed change:
I can see that greater train capacity might (after current stock orders) be feasible using "more-standing" trains. Splitting more services close to the GLA boundary might be a better fit with using stock that has lower capacity once it goes too far for standing to be acceptable. But that's not actually set out as a proposal. Title: Re: TfL to take command of the capital's entire suburban rail network Post by: ChrisB on January 23, 2016, 16:54:10 And will the interchanges with outer suburban and long-distance trains be worse? That is extremely important & one of the reasons that the DfT has held TfL off until now. cf the Met Line - once away from GLA area (and hence authority member reps) the service has deteriorated. No fast Amersham services any more, pushing those pax onto Chiltern & away from TfL. TfL see a station as something that must be stopped at - so bye-bye any (semi-)fast services if & where they exist now. Title: Re: TfL to take command of the capital's entire suburban rail network Post by: ellendune on January 23, 2016, 16:56:44 Should the quid pro quo include transferring the Amersham services to Chiltern?
Title: Re: TfL to take command of the capital's entire suburban rail network Post by: paul7575 on January 23, 2016, 17:05:16 If you look at the web page with the link, it lists five bullet points. Setting aside what is already planned to happen, we can look in the document for what is added by the proposed change: ... better rail interchanges - I can't find this. And will the interchanges with outer suburban and long-distance trains be worse? I think it's a two faced statement. They see better interchange as allowing for some higher frequencies. AIUI one of their supposed great ideas seems to be that (particularly in the Southern and Southeastern areas) there are a number of origins that share their existing capacity to two or even three main line termini. So you might have a branch where that magical four or six tph 'to London' can be achieved simply by switching all its current services to one destination, e.g. the Hayes branch going to Charing Cross only rather than both Charing Cross and Cannon St as now. So at the present 'split point' if heading towards Central London (e.g. Lewisham for Hayes) you'd definitely need better interchange - because you'd be trying to convince half of existing passengers that an interchange was better than their existing service... In summary I suppose they think that by going for a tube like 'mesh' of point to point services they can increase notional frequencies, by making interchange en route the norm rather than historic through services. I think they are treading on thin ice myself. Paul Title: Re: TfL to take command of the capital's entire suburban rail network Post by: paul7575 on January 23, 2016, 17:10:19 Should the quid pro quo include transferring the Amersham services to Chiltern? It's odd that the recent changes at Amersham and Chesham are the opposite to what they now seem to think is best practice for the mainline. Amersham and Chesham currently each have a 2 tph all day through service, but previously didn't Amersham get that 4 tph all day service with Chesham provided for by a half sized train running a shuttle service from Chalfont and Latimer?Paul Title: Re: TfL to take command of the capital's entire suburban rail network Post by: ChrisB on January 23, 2016, 17:19:14 Should the quid pro quo include transferring the Amersham services to Chiltern? Can't & won't happen - paths on the shared Rickmansworth/Harrow section are full in the peak. Chiltern would have to be given the full use of that track.... Title: Re: TfL to take command of the capital's entire suburban rail network Post by: Chris125 on January 31, 2016, 15:43:54 The press I've read all refer to services starting/finishing in/around the M25....so inner suburban. You can get a very good idea of what TfL are considering on page 20 of the GLA's 'Devolving rail services to London'' (http://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/devolving_rail_services_to_london-final-report.pdf) report from last year. Title: Re: TfL to take command of the capital's entire suburban rail network Post by: stuving on February 01, 2016, 00:25:49 You can get a very good idea of what TfL are considering on page 20 of the GLA's 'Devolving rail services to London'' (http://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/devolving_rail_services_to_london-final-report.pdf) report from last year. It's an odd mixture of a document - it starts as pretty much as a marketer's pitch, but towards the end it does look at the disadvantages. And then there are things that are missing. The biggest omission is anything serious about how to increase capacity. Overground was an easy gain, in that its use had declined to a low level, so when passengers did want to return to using it the capacity was there. In this quote: Quote The Mayor and TfL^s priority since 2007 has been to extend the London Overground network. This has happened in part through the addition of new track infrastructure, and more significantly through the devolution of suburban services on the Greater Anglia franchise in 2015. what fraction of the increase was due to new track?Closer inspection suggests that what they are really proposing is higher off-peak frequencies, possible because the longer-distance services are then less than in the peaks. That would mean more trains off-peak than in the peaks - as we once had for Waterloo-Reading. All very useful, but hard to pay for. In that context, this quote is interesting: Quote The recent extension of the London Overground following the devolution of suburban services from the Greater Anglia franchise in May 2015 demonstrates the challenge facing TfL. Prior to devolution, the previous operator, Abellio, ran these routes profitably. However, figures provided by TfL indicate that the service will now be run at a loss for the foreseeable future: between 2014/15 and 2020/21, TfL^s net expenditure in just these routes will total ^78 million. This is after the ongoing grant from government to TfL has been taken into account. In terms of "which services do they want to grab", the map (fig.7, p 20) is a bit fuzzy, but does suggest nothing off GWR other than what becomes Crossrail (which is logical) and none of Chiltern or the other north-bound lines (which looks a bit less so). SWT would split at Virginia Water, with Windsor and Weybridge services being devolved. Title: Re: TfL to take command of the capital's entire suburban rail network Post by: IndustryInsider on February 01, 2016, 11:49:59 but does suggest nothing off GWR other than what becomes Crossrail (which is logical) I can't see how it's logical for GWR to continue to run West Ealing to Greenford services after Crossrail commences, other than the fact it's a diesel service. Title: Re: TfL to take command of the capital's entire suburban rail network Post by: stuving on October 25, 2016, 23:38:27 According to DfT, their "consultation" that ended in March is still not analysed. TfL seem to have transmuted it into an "engagement", i.e. a way of soliciting support. Now they have moved on to the next stage, and presented a business case to DfT. This has those supporting statements appended to it, along with a lot of other stuff - a definition of "metroisation", maps showing proposed service patterns, etc.
The documents are on this page (https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/about-tfl/how-we-work/planning-for-the-future/developing-the-rail-network#on-this-page-0), and the business case itself is here (https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/rail-devolution-business-case-narrative.pdf). Title: Re: TfL to take command of the capital's entire suburban rail network Post by: ChrisB on October 26, 2016, 09:10:50 Quote more reliable services How, exactly.....they don't back this statement up Title: Re: TfL to take command of the capital's entire suburban rail network Post by: IndustryInsider on October 26, 2016, 11:43:03 I'm a little sceptical too, ChrisB, though it's fair to say the report does attempt to back such claims up by pointing to the improvements in the devolved West Anglia services in their first year of operation. The number of trains arriving outside of the PPM reduced from 4.8% to 4% over the same three periods the last two years. However, that could easily be as much down to weather/infrastructure factors (i.e. luck) than it is to the things under their direct control, but the old trains are certainly more reliable now they've had a refurbishment.
Title: Re: TfL to take command of the capital's entire suburban rail network Post by: ChrisB on October 26, 2016, 12:04:48 maps showing proposed service patterns, etc. Can't find these - which document are they contained within? Title: Re: TfL to take command of the capital's entire suburban rail network Post by: stuving on October 26, 2016, 12:57:37 maps showing proposed service patterns, etc. Can't find these - which document are they contained within? Appendix 5 of the business case - strictly they are presented as examples of "metroisation". I note that there isn't one, nor any real proposals, for the services into Waterloo. Title: Re: TfL to take command of the capital's entire suburban rail network Post by: paul7575 on October 26, 2016, 14:50:58 Appendix 5 of the business case - strictly they are presented as examples of "metroisation". I note that there isn't one, nor any real proposals, for the services into Waterloo. The Crossrail 2 consultation that is already underway will break the back of the Waterloo service division of responsibility. What remains on the main suburban side after CR2 is a heck of a lot simpler than the complex service patterns on both Southern and Southeastern, as SWT services only serve one terminus, and there are no massive infrastructure problems to solve such as Herne Hill, Lewisham, and Windmill Bridge Jns (Croydon). Compared to them residual SWT is comparatively very simple. Users of existing routes in the other two areas are used to at least a choice of through trains to two main destination termini, sometimes three, City or West End, and I expect that TfL's idea of increasing tph but reducing choice in favour of more interchange will not get an easy ride... Paul This page is printed from the "Coffee Shop" forum at http://gwr.passenger.chat which is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway. Views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that content provided contravenes our posting rules ( see http://railcustomer.info/1761 ). The forum is hosted by Well House Consultants - http://www.wellho.net |