Great Western Coffee Shop

Morning,

I noticed a 'small print' note on the tube map this morning saying that the Bakerloo line will not be stopping at Paddington from April 2nd until August.

Can anyone confirm this, or know what is being done?  I guess its still early days but the publicity isn't good.
That's going to royally shaft my commute.  They did this for a couple of weeks in 2014(?) and the results were not good - 4 months is a nightmare.

It's shown on tube map too, struggling to find a reason: http://content.tfl.gov.uk/standard-tube-map.pdf

I've asked on Twitter and will update when I get a reply.

Closure relates to construction of the interconnection with the Crossrail platforms.

It's a bit of an afterthought, not part of the Crossrail project but a separate "Paddington Bakerloo Line Link Project". Its a substantial bit of work, and let by London Underground to a Costain/Skanska JV. More words and pretty pictures here (http://www.constructionenquirer.com/2013/10/28/55m-london-paddington-tunnel-link/) and here (http://tunneltalk.com/London-Underground-Crossrail-21Jan2015-Paddington-Station-link-awarded-to-Costain-Skanska-JV.php).

Interesting - thanks all.

No afterthought at all.

Was part of the plans shown to Customer Panels way back before Eastbourne Terrace was dug for the Crossrail platforms. The connection was shown then as going under the lawn, and we were informed that the Bakerloo stations were to shut for a period.

However, no sign of any mitigation yet, which IMO, needs the eastbound circle line to continue beyond Edgware Road to at least Moorgate. That would at least partially split the likely overcrowding of the eastbound H&C platform which isn't exactly very wide

The original plan was dropped due to fears the Brunel train shed might fall down (from the inspector's report on the TWA application, dated December 2013 (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/285881/crossrail-paddington-inspectors-report.pdf)):

So this new hole is, in that sense, an afterthought; with its own TWA order in February 2014. How much disruption the original plan would have caused is hard to say. Interestingly, other than the quoted comment about passengers in the main line station, the TWA inspector didn't include that kind of passenger disruption in his consideration of things that need mitigating.

Highly unlikely if not impossible, there are no paths for that to be done without cancelling the normal through trains off the Met beyond Baker St.

Paul

This will be absolutely horrendous for all those (myself included) who use the Bakerloo line from Paddington, there is no way that the already overcrowded H & C/Circle lines will be able to cope with the extra traffic on a daily basis.

Looks like they've had almost 2 years to plan, so what mitigation is going to be put in place for passengers? (or as stuving has suggested, maybe they haven't factored this in?

Anyone who has ever tried to get on the H & C/Circle when the Bakerloo has fallen over will know exactly what I mean - 6 months of this does not bear thinking about!

April to August = 6 months?

Sorry - I was using a faulty Network Rail abacus left over from their electrification project.

OK then 4 and a bit months - the more important question remains - what are the plans to mitigate the horrendous overcrowding which will be a by product of this closure?

Off-peak they certainly could. Maybe to Baker Street plats 5&6 then, reversing there? Most Bakerloo pax would be changing there onto that line anyway....

TG hasn't said where he's travelling to (by Tube from PAD), but the 6-7 minute walk to the Central Line at Lancaster Gate is a good way to avoid the Circle/H&C if going east (as I often am) to the likes of the City (Bank/St Pauls) or Canary Wharf (Bank, then DLR)?

I often find the Circle/H&C really slow, as Edgware Road and Baker Street seem to be bottlenecks, due to junctions with other lines.

Appreciate the replies listed here...Bakerloo Line got back to me on Twitter a few moments ago advising it's the Crossrail work but they're also doing some escalator refurbishment work too.

Thanks ollie - did they say what arrangements they are going to make to help passengers make their onward journeys?

I go to London Bridge so Bakerloo to Baker St then Jubilee to London Bridge is normal route - looking at getting off at Ealing Broadway & picking up the Central Line to Bank then walking over Southwark Bridge as an alternative (office on Southwark Street) but open to/grateful for suggestions as to any better alternatives?

Walk to Edgware Road Bakerloo line 10 mins or Bus 205 to Edgware Road (short walk to Bakerloo Line Station) Marylebone or Baker Street but may be slow in rush hour.

Never done it, but the walk to Edgware Road (Bakerloo line station, so it wont suffer from H&C/Circle bottlenecks, but may have other issues?) looks about the same as Lancaster Gate, then you can do your usual route.

Edit: eightf48544 beat me to it

As an aside, nice to see the current tube map has put the Edgware road stations the "correct" way round.

As others have said...

If the walk to Lancaster Gate isn't any use then there are similar distance walks from Paddington to Edgware Road or Warwick Avenue which are the previous and subsequent stops on the Bakerloo Line and open for business as usual.  Which is nearest depends on whether you arrive at platforms 13/14 (Warwick Avenue via the north exit and Little Venice) or 1-12 (main exit then along Praed Street).  The walk to Warwick Avenue is quite a pleasant one (for central London!).

Agree with this - I often do the "Lancaster Gate Shuffle". The Central Line is far quicker than H&C/Circle for getting across to the City, though it's even more wedged in the peaks.

Another alternative is to walk to Edgware Road Bakerloo line station? I recently walked from the H&C/Circle line station to Paddington when the service collapsed and reckon that it was no more than 10-12 minutes. The Bakerloo line station is a little further away I believe.

Agree that Lancaster Gate may be a preferable alternative for many passengers.  One would hope that TfL would include signs indicating the surface walking route in their mitigation strategy.

It should also be noted that for ticketing purposes as part of a cross London journey Lancaster gate already counts as a terminus (ie a Slough to Cambridge NR ticket will get you through the gates at Lancaster Gate and Liverpool Street but not at, say Oxford Circus which would not be a valid exit for a cross London journey.  

From a crowding perspective, Lancaster gate is not a large station.  It has no escalators and a rather small ticket hall which easily becomes crowded and blocked by tourists from the multiple hotels nearby who have a habit of blocking Oyster/Contactless users from the gates, by milling around the ticket machines.  Some Tensa barriers might mitigate that.    

No, they said more info will be available nearer the time.

Many thanks for all your very helpful suggestions, walking to Edgware Road sounds a good bet, hopefully we're in for a sunny Spring!

AIUI you could do that on a non-advance ticket, but would not be allowed back in (walk/Oyster required to continue the journey). IIRC the ticket probably wont operate the gates at (say) Oxford Circus.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46587.aspx#travelling_connect

Definiteky won't let you out any any station on Oxford Street, and very probably others

I work at London Bridge, more often than not in the morning i use the Circle from Padd via Victoria get off at Monument and walk across London Bridge journey is about 10 mins longer.

Has the advantage I always get a seat at Padd so can read my paper or book, look at the stunning view down stream towards Tower Bridge, avoids the crush on the Jubilee Line especially at W'loo and the melee that is the exit from London Bridge Tube

From the National Rail link posted below:

Therefore you can EXIT at any Underground station you wish whilst along your journey, but would not be allowed back in at most locations

Both Lancaster Gate and Edgware Road are on the allowed list for Paddington journeys, Warwick Avenue however is not.

Edit:

(Of course Warwick Avenue may be allowed whilst Paddington is closed, especially for those who head towards Harrow on arrival at Paddington)

If your National Rail ticket has a 'cross London' marker (e.g. ^^' ANY PERMITTED) then you can exit at any intermediate Underground station on routes between the National Rail London Terminals you'd be using on your journey. What you can't do is re-enter the Underground with the same ticket.

I could be wrong but I think ChrisB was picking up on my point about operation of the ticket barriers at these stations i.e. you'll probably need a member of (informed) staff to let you out as the gates will (erroneously) reject the ticket. I think there have been problems with TfL staff not knowing these rules in the past.

Gateline staff, rules, aggro... as the line in one of the back to the futures went "this all seems very familiar" :)

You are right....unless this has changed recently, a ticket was wrongly refused at Oxford Circus in my presence.

I think the ticket encoding allows one underground entrance and one exit in Zone 1 on tickets marked with a cross London transfer. I don't think the magstripe is able to hold data about specific Underground stations.

I've broken my cross London journey on a few occasions and have never had an Underground barrier refuse my ticket.

I seem to remember an occasion where I went straight from Euston to Waterloo on the Northern Line with a maltese cross routing. Let me in at Euston, didn't let me out at Waterloo and the member of staff who let me out implied I was pulling a fast one. I suppose it could be one of those where your mileage may vary.

I stand corrected. 

The underground stations which are allowed (preferred?) for 'cross London' transfer journeys are not just in Zone 1, and not just main line terminals either, both of which have been suggested earlier in the thread.   There's a full list on the National Rail website here:


There's a difference between being allowed by the rules to exit at any intermediate station on a possible route between 'appropriate stations' on that list, and it being automatically allowed by the barriers.

Paul

I regularly travel between Pinhoe/Exeter and Flitwick which requires transfer between Paddington or Waterloo and the Thameslink service. More often than not, West Hampstead is suggested as the interchange station rather than St Pancras or Farringdon - although, of course that would mean using a slower Thameslink service.

I think that's a 'feature' of the way the planners calculate the total transfer time.  The main National Rail termini have much longer allowances set for the walk around the station and down to or up from the underground platforms.

I often see suggestions to change at Vauxhall (if there's a suitable change onto a train that stops there) for the Victoria line to Kings Cross, rather than carry on to Waterloo as you'd intuitively do.

Paul

Will be interested to hear how our forum's regular commuters get on with these arrangements over the next few weeks.

On the recent past on the Circle / District line performance over the last few weeks ................... miserably.

 

I work near London Bridge so it's normally train to Paddington, Bakerloo to Baker Street then Jubilee to London Bridge - I'm going to go train to Ealing Broadway, Central Line to Bond Street and pick up the Jubilee line there, tried it last week and seemed OK, coming home I'll probably get off the Bakerloo at Edgware Road and walk to Paddington.

Will be interested to hear your experiences TG as I do the same journey. I'm thinking that in the way home the Circle Line is a... circle so I'll be able to link back to Paddington without the trauma of the H&C, or more specifically the major station bottlenecks at Paddington to reach the H&C.
I went to London on Saturday and tried out a couple of routes. Both doubled the connection time to Baker Street to 20mins, and that was without any passenger volume.

It wouldn't have been too bad this morning had GWR not cancelled the first 6 London bound trains from Taplow (and the Reading bound ones too so no nipping over to Maidenhead!)

As it was, Mrs TG dropped me at Slough, Ealing Broadway to Bond Street on the Central Line was OK but the Jubilee Line at 0830? Horrendous.

I use the eastbound trains from Padd at Baker Street & no discernible extra pax coming through from Paddington via Edgware Road disembarking this morning. In fact, I got a seat....

Just watching, nothing to say.

Influence of school holidays? West London road traffic & buses have been exceptionally quiet since last week...

Real test will be when the schools are all back in a week or so from now.

Much less fun this evening. Baker Street has too many narrow stairs to navigate from jubilee to H&C to be used as an alternative route at peak time.
H&C came in to Baker Street full and at 5min timings it was leaving passengers on the platform at each turn. Not suitable even before Easter holidays finish.

Tomorrow I shall try plan C.

Change at Westminster to clockwise Circle?

Hadn't reached that option yet but well worth considering. 
Walking from Bond Street isn't catastrophic at 1.2miles.

The bus from Paddington to and from Baker street doesn't (usually) take too long.. Worth a try if you have a travelcard.. Or even the bus to Bond street in the morning would work too. .Not so sure about the return journey on that one though..

I tried the Circle to Westminster this morning. They aren't very frequent which might be frustrating but it gets you there.

Scores so far:
H&C to Baker Street (morning) - 15mins
H&C from Baker Street (evening) - 22mins
Circle from Paddington to Westminster - 25mins

This is going to be a bit of a nightmare but they had to replace escalators at some point, would either jump H&C to baker street or walk down to edgware road.   

..........why not try Ealing B to Bond Street (Central, about 20 mins), then Bond Street to Westminster (Jubilee, about 8 mins), that's the route I'm taking to London Bridge and it seems fine.

Worth a shot for variety. That would mean taking the all-stations from Maidenhead rather than the direct service, but overall it might work out faster.

You'd be surprised at how empty the stopping trains are compared to the fast ones too.. You might be convinced that comfort is better than speed going forward..

Well, up until West Drayton at least!

The advantage is that you'll almost certainly get a seat on the Central Line as it starts from Ealing B - after about 0815 the Jubilee Southbound is absolutely rammed, but it is fast and very frequent.

On the way home last night I went London Bridge (Jubilee) - Baker St (Bakerloo) - Edgware Road and walked along Praed Street to Paddington (about 8 mins) which worked OK, there were Network Rail bods giving directions and it's very well signposted if you're not familiar with the area.

Tried this route this evening. It's certainly simple and the praed street walk isn't bad but I felt I was about to get mown down by the traffic outside edgeware road. There was an element of people power going on as pax just waded across the A40/edgeware road but the traffic wasn't stopping for anyman.
Exactly the same time taken as the H&C from Baker Street the night before.

Plan E tomorrow... Lancaster Gate.





Edit note: Quote marks fixed, for clarity. CfN.

Has anyone suggested walking to Warwick road to pick up the bakerloo line? Could be worth a try, especially if you arrive on pl.13/14

I did, back in post #19.  Pointing out that it's a much nicer walk than the one to Edgware Road.  ;)

If you arrive on 13/14 and want to go to Edgware Road, then you can also use the northern exit and cut through the Paddington Basin alongside the canal - doesn't stop you from having to cross the road at the end, but nicer than along Praed Street and just as quick.

Personally I would just go via Moorgate, bit of a squish for two stops on the Northern but fine on the H&C/C and avoids changing at Baker Street or requiring a walk from Paddington.

But necessitates a change onto already packed (at PAD) H&C at Edgware Road. All circle trains terminate there from PAD

They're spaced in pairs at about 4 interim points between the two stations. I've seen them during my morning and evening commute, I wonder if they're there all day. They might want to increase their profile though, a pair of pink foam hands saying 'here to help' gets lost in the general crowd of charity chuggers, striking medical staff etc along that route :)

The fact that every time I've passed them the 'hand' has been removed and stuffed under an armpit to facilitate easier head-down-phone-watching amuses me and contributes to that lack of visibility. I figured it as a sign that they weren't too busy.

??, I mean catch a circle or Hammersmith from P16 direct to Moorgate, nothing to do with changing at Edgware Road.

Sorry, I thought you meant use the Circle Eastbound platform.

I thought we were suggesting travel *avoiding* the H&C platforms?

Only 2 days in I know but it seems that not so many people are taking the "get off at Edgware Road and walk" option in the evenings from what I can see......reckon more are getting onto the H & C/Circle at Baker St - good luck to them.

I noticed all the chuggers on Praed St last night and did more side stepping than during my entire 25 year rugby career......then again I was a hooker!  :D

Got on the Central Line (Ealing B) at 0735 this morning, changed at Bond Street onto the Jubilee and was at London Bridge for 0810 so not bad at all, probably only 5 mins later than the usual journey via Paddington.

Having witnessed the sights after cutting along Sussex Gardens on my way back to Paddington on foot from the west end, I can confirm that Praed St is the wrong street for you...!

It was always said by those in the know when I worked a Padd that Sussex Garden had more hookers than Parade Street .................. but I never did any research though  ;D

Back to more serious points there is a pedestrian underpass under Edgware Rd / Marylebone Rd which should save the head ache of the road crossing

Something like this happened in 1996/7, when the Bakerloo was closed South of Piccadilly Circus for about 10 months, for work on the tunnel under the river.

What was evident was the need for the District to terminate at Baker Street rather than Edgware Road to create more capacity East of Paddington to the inner LT network, particularly as the SS trains are nearly empty for their last stop. That would need terminating platforms and some tunnelling of course but it would have also eased the junction conflicts. It would have been a better preliminary for Crossrail.

OTC

My past experience is that MET Line extensions from Baker Street to Aldgate are not so heavily used.  It would be better then to terminate more MET Line services at Baker Street and extend the Circle Line services from Edgware Road to Moorgate thus creating an overflowing 'Teacup'  ;D

My impression also. I remember waiting at Moorgate for the 1 in 3 or 4 H&C's or Circles, while the nearly empty but capacious MET "A" stock made ritual but largely pointless station calls. I put it down to longer distance trains paying better even when not full.

I notice that we now have a "Zone 9". Can we expect our stations to Reading to be zoned?

OTC

You obviously don't regularly use that section? Daily - there are *many* using the MET extension from Baker Street through to Liverpool Street & Aldgate - push those onto the circle line trains totally defeats the idea of spreading the load!

I did use the past tense in my post.  Only ever travel that part in the 'off peak' these days. However, I didn't suggest a reduction in the total number of trains between Baker Street an Moorgate, just a reconfiguration of the originations.

And I was making the point that *many* on those trains travel onto Liverpool Street & Aldgate, which ios one reason they don't terminate (except during disruption) at Moorgate.

Fwiw I vastly preferred things when the Circle was a circle and given a choice between a long Met Line and increased frequency on the Circle I'd take the improved Circle.
I say this as someone who grew up on the Met Line and also spent many years commuting in from Pinner to Moorgate.
Baker Street is designed to allow maximum flow from the MetLine platforms to eastbound Circle and having to make the interchange is not arduous. In fact, because the number of through trains is low compared to the number of Baker Street terminations, and because when travelling west the variety of destinations is so varied, most commuters from the City will interchange at Baker Street anyway.
If terminating all trains at BS allowed the Circle to run enhanced numbers (because points switching is not needed?) then the overall capacity can be increased.
And before anyone thinks I'm down on the Met Line I think the same of the other track-sharers - district and H&C. Interchange for them too and get the Circle running better.

In my opinion anyway.

It'll be interesting to see how Crossrail The Elizabeth Line changes these long established passenger flows, especially if the WMCL arm to Tring is added to the equation.

Quite dramatically, the Padd Mainline passengers especially the Thames valley passengers who will already be on an Elizebth line train the Bakerloo to Baker St for Jubilee to Canary Warf will cease also any wanting to go to the west end and even for passengers wanting to go north or south will use Farringdon for the Thameslink to Cambridge / Bedford and Brighton etc



This was muted as part of the HS2 Euston rebuild which would only really work if Maiden Lane and York Way (Pic line) are rebuilt / reopened, the HS2 Euston rebuild is having a close look at what the impact the rebuild of London Bridge has had to Passengers TOCs LUL etc.  The Crossrailling of the Tring services did not seem popular with the inhabitants of the Palace of Westminster 

Couldn't agree more. Bring back full-circle circle trains!

I disagree.  For me the banjo line is far more useful. 

Proper circle Circle for me too. Hate the walk from low numbered PAD platforms to P16 for H&C/Circle to Baker St and beyond.

No, 2 out of 3 are through services, with the third starting/terminating at Baker Street during the evening peak, with a similar frequency in the morning peak and 3 out of 4 through services during the day.


Yes, services could be increased on the northern section but would not have enough capacity 'south' of HSK or Aldgate.

How? H&Cs would have to stop at Paddington with a long walk to the 'Circle' line platforms, or continue to Edgware Road but would still have to 'share' tracks between Praed Street & Edgware Road.

Districts from Wimbledon could terminate at HSK Platforms 3/4 without too many complications but what about passengers from Earls Court heading East or those from Whitechapel heading west?

I have found heading westbound from Victoria that district trains are far busier than those heading on the circle towards NHG/Paddington.

Of course once the signalling improvements come in to force, (2022 I believe) then hopefully more circle line services can be accommodated. 


I sense a poll coming on!

HSK? Hassocks?

NHG?

EDIT: Ahh... after looking at a Tube map I think you are talking about High St Kensington and Notting Hill Gate. Wasn't immediately clear to me though. Even less so to someone reading not familiar with London Underground stations.

Incidentally those two station do have three letter codes as used by National Rail retail and fares systems. ZHS and ZNG.

Presumable the Z is either some sort of wild card or it silent. 

AIUI "Z" is the usual first letter for LU managed stations which have National Rail point to point fares available.  ZFD for Farringdon, ZMG for Moorgate are a couple of others that ring bells...

Returning to the original subject of this thread; from TfL (https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2016/august/bakerloo-line-serves-paddington-station-again-from-today);

Good to see the work finished ahead of schedule.

On Monday (August 1) I had a morning appointment with some lawyers near Fleet St.

As we finished I looked up the TfL journey planner for its best suggestions about getting back to Paddington (I'd spent the weekend in London). One of the lawyers suggested the Central Line from Chancery Lane to Lancaster Gate. TfL recommended Central Line to Oxford Circus, then Bakerloo to Paddington - so TfL were very much on the ball restoring this link in the database. Ah, says the lawyer, aren't the Bakerloo trains not stopping at Paddington? No, says his colleague - it's all back to normal this morning, except for the sticky labels on the maps in the cars, which still say "Bakerloo trains not stopping at Paddington until mid-August".

You can fix the electronic database instantly, but sticky labels take longer...

When I used to go to Gough Square, off Fleet Street, I used to walk to Blackfriars and catch the Circle Line to Paddington. Was usually less crowded.

When I said "near Fleet Street", what I actually meant was "Gough Square".

Happy Days. Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese pub four minutes and thirty seconds from work.

Thanks for clarifying that, Worcester_Passenger.  The Old Bailey is "near Fleet Street".  ::)

Just saying.  :o

Just in case anyone is unaware, a tube strike is planned on the H&C and Circle starting from 21:00 tonight until end of play tomorrow. May make the Bakerloo at Paddington a wee bit busier than normal.

Actually 2130-2130 Friday, wind down aroubd 2100.

There will be just a few Circke Line trains tomorrow, nothing on H&C

The H&C is also closed for Engineering Hammersmith - Edgeware Road this weekend as they test new signalling

Bakerloo, District and Circle (via Bayswater)

Looks like staff shortage effect some of the - err - smaller (!?  :-\ ) tube stations.  Paddington seems a surprising one to close!

Maybe they redeploy staff from Paddington to other stations to keep them open? Paddington has more options - as noted - H&C or Circle to Baker Street or Edgware Road and change is doable, if not particularly convenient.

Disn't stay shut for long though, they tweeted it reopened quite quickly.

Shortage on Shift change, I reckon