Great Western Coffee Shop

I think tonight's train must be going for an overcrowding record.

All 8 carriages full and no standing room anywhere. People at Paddington where pleading for people to move up to no avail.

I accept that all trains are not this full, but the train manager should be allowed to suspend and odd stop, say Reading to help free up space. I know this is inconvenient for people, but there must be a limit to train overcrowding on long journeys

Missing the Reading stop has happened with this train before.   It is booked only to pick up there but all the commuters for Reading who still get on it, got overcarried to Swindon.  Serves them right.

Sounds like it needs to happen again....

The only way you are going to solve this is to remove the Reading stop entirely. Passengers from Reading for Parkway Westwards would need to travel on the service before and change at Swindon. Hardly a real hardship as both trains stop at Platform 4 so no changing of platforms required.

Would we be talking about the first super-off-peak train by any chance?  I remember when "off peak" meant "quieter" ...

For a short while during the Reading station upgrade works, either this train or the one before it (18.45 off Paddington) were actually non-stopping Reading which meant they were busy but not crush loaded like the OP's experience today. It made for a rather pleasant peak hours long distance trip back to South Wales. I do hope with Crossrail and the improvements to Reading station, that they ditch the Reading stop on a decent number of the longer distance services - passengers on the South Wales and Devon & Cornwall services would likely benefit most from this.

OP - I'm not sure if you were aware that it's the start of half term in many places today, there were also many numpties on the M4 this evening...

I think we may well be! And as I said, it's half term...  ::)

That is not the only way.

The way to solve it is to stop Reading commuters boarding at Paddington. Enforce the 'pick-up only' rule at the gateline. Not inconvenience people travelling from Reading to South Wales by having them board a service 20 minutes earlier at Reading and then have them wait at Swindon for 15 minutes.

Must agree there. Possible too, if certain platform(s) used

Did you see how full it was after departure from Reading?  It's a big call to temporarily remove a stop short notice as by the time you realise it's necessary everybody is on board.  Try telling 200+ Reading commuters they have to get off and you get mass protests and probable delays.

I'm all for removing the call 'permanently' (perhaps just on Fridays) on the busiest trains, providing the train either side has space on board.  That would usually be the case in this example as the 19:22 PAD-HFD usually has some room on board.  What you don't want is the trains either side swamped and a train missing Reading that's only half full.

Longer term we just need to operate more trains, which as we know is the plan.  Another example of how badly the ratio switch between first/standard class was badly needed to help us survive until that point.

There was talk of a Paddington - Reading fast shuttle at one time.  Then you could enforce the rules on other trains if you needed to.

You beat me to it, I was just thinking that! ..............then again as we are frequently advised from certain quarters, there is no health/safety risk involved in overcrowding, and no-one is "forced" to get on a train!  ::)

The recent versions of the post IEP service pattern (such as in the GW franchise brief) include 2 tph non-stopping at Reading.  But it seems to be the additional pair of IEPs to Bristol via Parkway in the off-peak that they've chosen, in the peaks one of these becomes a fast Swansea service and also seems to skip Reading.

Paul

That's the problem, it's not bring enforced. How easy is it to actually do this when you have a scrum at the gateline? I guess in time this would lessen once Reading commuters got the message that the 'pick up only' rule was being enforced week in week out.

What else doesn`t help is that the first super off peak to the west country(1903) also is pickup only at reading, and leaves from the adjacent platform!!!!

The pick up rule could be enforced by using selective door operation and only allowing boarding into only two or three carriages (depending on how many actually board at reading.  That would make it on platform enforcement possible.


With my suggestion that could be an advantage not a disadvantage. 

A summary of my journey.

I was fortunate to be near the gates when the service was announced as was amongst the first few hundred to board the train .

As most of the train was reserved, I wen to to carriage D, planning to occupy any vacant seat when we started.

As the minutes ticked, the train got fuller and fuller until the guards came along and shut the doors, Carriage D was full with dozens of people on the aisle, and at least 12 in the vestibule areas as the end. Carriage C looked equally fully with a similar number in the vestibule area. So 20+ between the two. People where still milling around outside trying to board, and being told be the conductors the trains where full.

At Reading none appeared to leave or board the train. At Swindon a fair number left, still no seats free, and people left in the aisle and vestibule, but at least there was space. At BPW hundreds left, including me..

A crowded local train is never a major issue, but an InterCity train, never agin.

Ok.  I'm a bit confused why we've started talking about not stopping at Reading as being the answer then!

Which makes it easier barrier-wise to reject Reading tickets by those closest to those platforms. Where there's a will, there's a way

Depends whether that was a one off (I am told that there has been some sort of popular sporting event going on in Cardiff today) or whether in other times Reading commuters are the source of the overcrowding. 

Or go back to the good old days and have the guard/train manager and RPO/ticket inspector (delete as appropriate) doing a check between Paddington and Reading which never seems to happen anymore as both have barriers. Yes they may only get to a handful of Reading tickets within the 25 minutes available, but do it every week and it will slowly ween out the offenders and I'm sure word will get around when a few penalty fares are handed out.

On a separate note having never caught that train on a Friday is there any mention of it not stopping at Reading, a small handful of people who regularly catch the 19:15 Monday to Thursday may not realise. (Not saying this is an excuse but may help deter the odd person)

Both trains are not advertised on the departure boards as not stopping at reading, but regulars know it does!!!!!

I'm conscious that the majority of this thread seems to be concentrating on keeping people off a particular train, rather than providing sufficient capacity to make something approaching a reasonably tolerable experience. Some might say that's a rather bizarre way of doing business.

The answer is of course blindingly simple - make it a reservations only train, check all tickets before boarding and only sell tickets to destinations beyond Reading, but GWR won't do that of course as it will cost them ticket revenues.

I'm equally conscious (particularly but by no means solely via the Twitter feed) that whenever anyone contacts GWR regarding overcrowding, they are told to be patient because new trains are coming.

Expectations are in this way being massively raised - if we end up swapping old, decrepit overcrowded trains for shiny, new but equally overcrowded trains, people are going to be severely unhappy....I am sure that there is someone far more expert than me on this forum who can allay people's fears on this subject, and that in future the days of being treated like human cattle will be but a distant memory?

I think most of us realise that, in the short term, balancing out the numbers as best they can is the only answer for GWR.  They've done pretty much all they can to provide the maximum number of seats on the trains they have available, by taking steps such as changing the first/standard class seating ratios that you criticised at the time, but have proven to be a very wise move.  If, in five years time, overcrowding is still chronic with all the new trains in place then GWR will have nowhere to hide and no excuses and I think that criticism from myself and others will be much more warranted.

Personally I'm confident that the situation will be hugely improved, especially on the suburban routes.  However, anybody who thinks that there will never be anybody standing on a train again come 2019, or that there will be no delays, needs to take a reality pill.

Some might say that, but this is presumably a 2+8 IC125 set we're talking about. The platforms might be able to take a 2+9 set (I really have no idea), if you could find enough spare mark 3s to lengthen the sets, but it's not like FirstGWR are putting a short train like a 180 on the service, so increasing capacity isn't an easy option.

Personally, I think all the new trains will achieve is moving the capacity problem around. There's an awful lot of short 5-car sets, running more frequently alongside some 9-car sets. From analysis by another member in another topic it looks like this will increase capacity quite substantially on PAD-Bristol Temple Meads services (which I think will see most of the 9-car sets and probably the biggest frequency uplift as well) but some other routes will see reduced capacity because they'll be getting the shorter trains but no frequency improvement to compensate. So you might get a seat out of PAD, but you'll be standing between Cardiff and Bridgend and/or Newport instead.

In the past I've found that the start of half term makes quite a significant difference to these Friday afternoon services. Also don't forget that Scotland played against Wales in Cardiff in the 6 nations the day after OP's journey - I've noticed that a significant number of Scotland supporters either travel from or via London the day before this fixture.

OP may just have been a bit unlucky in the timing of his journey - this train is normally pretty busy, but, in my most recent experience of it, rarely approaching crush loadings.

By 18/19 there is likely to be lots of Class 91s/Mk 4 stock lying idle. If there is still overcrowding then government will have no excuse for not redeploying some of it in the west. (Note that I say government, rather than whoever is running the services as ultimately they are the ones who have to agree with the TOC to spend the additional money that it would need.)

Throwing a wild idea into this, why not run alternate trains

• Stopping service to BPW/BTM, running every 30 minutes
• South West with first stop at BTM, running every hour
• South Wales with first stop at BPW, running every hour

This will provide more capacity, and quicker service to South Wales/South West. The other alternative is to add an upper platform deck at Paddington to add another 8 platforms, or add capacity at Royal Oak and let trains go there instead.

Because there aren't enough trains to do that currently.  The plan is to reduce the number of calls at Reading/Swindon when the new trains are in use, at least off-peak, so the future service might not be too far off of what you suggest.  It's not so much the capacity at Paddington, but the capacity on the main lines that is the problem.

Confusing double negative there, no wonder confusion reigns...    ;D

Paul

So, if there is a 1:1 replaced from HSTs for IEPs, and the problem is not adding capacity to Paddington, but the line, then merely adding a extra carriages will have no effect.

With passenger growth over the last 20 years, and for the future averaging 4+%pa, any slack in the network disappeared 10 years, and merely replacing tired old trains, for faster newer trains does not address capacity. I expect Crossrail will help, but the Network Rail/FGW need to go back to the drawing board.

Maybe time for a cheap 15 carriage, no first class, train stopping Reading + Didcott + Swindon + BPW + BTM + Bath + ChP + Swindon + Didcott + Reading, and the otherway wunning every hour.   

I don't understand why adding extra carriages would have no effect. 

There isn't a 1:1 HST/IEP replacement.  There are (I believe) around 460 HST carriages currently in operation with GWR.  The IEP Class 800/801s (and follow up AT300 order) to replace them amount to 542 carriages in the current configurations.  So that figure compares very favourably - especially when you take into account nominal lengths of 23m for the old trains and 26m for the new ones.

It's not quite as simple as that of course, as GWR will be losing 25 Class 180 carriages, but to perhaps balance that out, some of the current HST operations between Paddington and Oxford could easily be replaced by Class 387 units.

Many more trains, especially off-peak, are planned for these new units and the infrastructure is being upgraded in order for them to have paths.  The most obvious example is the Reading upgrade, but many other smaller scale upgrades will help.  There will be pinch points (Didcot for me), and I share Rhygaled's concern regarding capacity on South Wales services, but I don't think that NR/GWR have a need to go back to the drawing board quite yet!

For the future, the 9-car Electric IEP's could easily be extended to 10-car units, and capacity will also be improved when ETCS in-cab signalling is introduced.

There Is seemingly a big demand for London to Bristol/ South Wales travel I was unaware of.

I spent around 1 hour at Victoria coach station today, there were 2 or 3 megabus services to South Wales and a couple of national express services. The 3 megabus services all had duplicates.
My megabus service a Victoria to Penzance double decker coach was at full capacity to Bristol. There were pretty much half hourly or more frequent coaches that went via Bristol on their various routes.

Hello again.

Whilst many services are fit for purpose, some services are clearly not. My journey home on Friday evening, 1915 from LDN PDG could probably have filled a 15 carriage service, never mind an 8 carriage service.

Having spent 5 years commuting from Bristol to Reading daily from 2005-2011, I can confirm that at peak times, it was not uncommon for passengers to stand from Swindon on towards London in the morning, and back to BPW in the evening. This became more frequent with time, and together with the escalating price where major reason for leaving my job in Reading for a new one in Bristol. The oddity here though is that commute times are about the same.

Despite repeated upgrades delivered and planned, I have not seen or expect to see the uplift in capacity that is needed. I know that CrossRail and IEP will help, but I do not believe they will provide anywhere near the increase in capacity needed.

Should you also further complicate it by taking off an allowance for the pointy bits at the end / crumple zone, etc ... or does that just balance out the extra 3 metres per carriage? And I think there's that thorny subject of the catering space being significantly less.

And I still find myself wondering how the 19:15 compares to the 18:15 and 18:45, and whether the decision people make is price or time based. Pricing (example - to Neath)
18:15 - 124.50 Adult single, 249.00 return
18:45 - 60.60 Adult off peak single, 101.00 return
19:15 - 46.50 Adult super off peak single, 80.80 return
and there's then a gap of an hour ....

Edit to add - if the issue is price based, possible solutions could be (unpopular) not allow groupsave on the 19:15 on a Friday or (popular) start off peak and super off peak half an hour earlier on Fridays [the evening  peak is earlier on a Friday I think, being POETS day (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POETS_day)!]

Between the South Wales area and Bristol you're looking at a recorded population of just over 2.6 million, 2.2 million of those are in South Wales, so there is significant demand for travel to, from and within this region.

Time will tell.

I was under the impression that whilst the population of South Wales was 2.2M, Greater Bristol's is 1.2M (Bristol, South Glos, BANES, Woodspring, Wansdyke), although some in Bath, WSM, Thornbury and Chipping Sodbury would deny living in Greater Bristol.
 

Graham -

First thing would be to remove any cheaper-than-SOP Advance fares

As it was the quickest to find, I was quoting the figure for the city of Bristol, which, according to Wikipedia is 428000, with the Bristol Urban Area being just over 600000.

Compare this with the combined resident population of Devon and Cornwall of 1.6 million and you see how significant this region is.

Another way is to look at the whole concept of the Evening Peak/Off Peak concept. It seems to me you are always going to have this problem if you have say a 2, 2.5, or even 3 peak sometime  between 16:00 and 19:00. That the first trains after  the peak are going to attract many Off peak ticket holders as well as late commuters.

I gather there are similar problems at Euston where trains just before the end of the peak  go out half or more empty whereas the ones after the peak are rammed.

When I was at Sutton we had Peak and Off peak returns from London Terminii. Enforcing them was a nightmare both at Victoria, turning them away in the mass of commuters, and at Sutton, collecting the excess from ones that got through. Both stations had manned barriers.  Even selling them was a pain as you had to explain they couldn't be used between 16:30 and 18:30. I seem to recall BR did away the distinction in the late 60/70s at least a far as Suburban Lines around London.  It was I believe Thameslink that broke the mould in London and was allowed to get away with it.

Yep, and I suspect that the intermediate pricing (off-peak) between anytime and superoffpeak is an attempt to level things off. Yet even with off-peak and superoffpeak fares being close in monetary terms, take a look at Paddington and I suspect you'll find that people will either travel peak (without the cost being their priority) or wait for superoffpeak (with cost being prime concern) and the intermediate step is pretty thin in what help it provides - in other works, nearly everyone who's put off by peak prices will wait that extra half hour for superoffpeak and not bother with the intermediate off-peak train.

Alas, that's just a description of how I read human nature and I can't offer a constructive formula to level out the effects ... "super off peak tickets with odd numbers are allowed on the 18:45, but even numbers must wait for the 19:15?" and it becomes a lottery!

Errr,,,,didn't off-peak precede super off-peak? Ie it was around well before?

Yes ... though I suspect that both have been around long enough for their order of introduction to have little effect of current loading, with even the stickiest of sticks in the mud having changed habits.  I vaguely recall that "off peak" may have been a new level with the old off peak renamed "superoffpeak" anyway - can't imagine there was a whole new cheaper pricing band brought in.