Great Western Coffee Shop

All across the Great Western territory => Fare's Fair => Topic started by: Richard Fairhurst on April 30, 2016, 12:35:45



Title: Penalty Fares
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on April 30, 2016, 12:35:45
At Charlbury station this morning, I was surprised to hear a pre-recorded announcement on the tannoy stating that Penalty Fares will apply to the whole GWR network from 23rd May.

The announcement said "for more information, visit gwr.com/revenueprotection (http://gwr.com/revenueprotection)". The information at that URL (particularly the second PDF) still refers to a limited penalty fare area.

I haven't heard confirmation of this anywhere - has anyone else?


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: JayMac on April 30, 2016, 12:44:24
Impossible. Unless GWR are installing a TVM, Permit to Travel machine, or ticket office at every station on their network in the next 3 weeks.

Could the announcement just be that the Cotswold Line is being added to GWR's Penalty Fares area?


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on April 30, 2016, 12:52:52
I might have been hallucinating, but I'm sure it said the whole network. It followed about a minute after a similarly worded announcement, by the same auto-announcer, about the change in bike policy.

The Cotswold Line has the same issues that you point out - there's no ticket machine at Moreton, for example, let alone Finstock or Combe.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: paul7575 on April 30, 2016, 13:10:22
Penalty fares can be variously applicable by route, service, TOC or station.   AIUI a service to one of the minor Cotswold Line stations could be a penalty fare service which would be applicable if you came from a 'full service' station such as Paddington.

In other words the possibility of a PF can be dependent on which direction you are travelling in.

Paul


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: John R on April 30, 2016, 14:28:24
Yes I've heard it too and if definitely said the whole of the network. It did take me aback too.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: grahame on April 30, 2016, 14:58:29
I have heard ... that it's to apply to the whole network in the interest of evening out the penalties that can be applied from place to place.  Also suggested that concentration is to be on finding those passengers who habitually don't pay. Final comment ... is that some feel it's happening in a bit of a rush.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: JayMac on April 30, 2016, 15:02:24
General rule is that if your origin station has no ticket purchasing facilities, or a Permit to Travel machine, you cannot be issued a Penalty Fare.

If GWR are saying that you can be given a Penalty Fare when travelling anywhere on their network then that is wrong.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: JayMac on April 30, 2016, 15:05:39
that it's to apply to the whole network in the interest of evening out the penalties that can be applied from place to place. 

But that simply cannot be possible. You can't penalise someone travelling from Avonmouth who hasn't bought a ticket in the same way as you can penalise someone from travelling from Weston-super-Mare who has walked past the open ticket office and/or working TVM.

Evening out the penalties? What does that even mean? A Penalty Fare isn't always a fixed price.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: stuving on April 30, 2016, 15:33:19
If you look at the two documents linked to from that GWR revenue protection page (http://gwr.com/revenueprotection), you won't be hugely the wiser. But they do both refer to penalty fare zones and to penalty fare stations as not including all those in a PF zone. Mind you, the wording keeps shifting - it's a Penalty Fare Zone in one place, and a penalty fare area in the other, and then there's a penalty fare line, or scheme, or ...

But there is this specific statement: "If you travel in a penalty fare area from a penalty fare station without buying a valid ticket, we may give you a PFN." (Our Revenue Protection and Prosecutions Policy, p 21). And there are maps, though again leaving several questions open. So it looks like that's the way they are going - but they haven't got the documents explaining it fully sorted out yet.




Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: ChrisB on April 30, 2016, 16:38:41
That statement is fine, I think. As BNM says, those without either ticket buying facilities or a Permit to travel machine win't be a Penalty Fare station

So what I think they mean is that RPI won't have any discretion to issue where they are able


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: JayMac on April 30, 2016, 18:35:44
But the PA, according to the OP, says that from 23rd May, Penalty Fares will apply across the whole network.

The whole network includes the Cornish branches, the Severn Beach line, Castle Cary to Dorchester West, stations such as Dilton Marsh, Avoncliff, Castle Bar Park, Shiplake, Weston Milton, Culham, Finstock...

A simple final few words on the recorded announcement are all that is needed, "...except if you start your journey at a station with neither ticket purchasing facilities nor a Permit To Travel machine"

Passengers have to be accurate in their ticket purchase and use, on pain of criminal sanction. The least train operators can to is be clear and accurate in their pronouncements regarding passenger's obligations.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: adc82140 on April 30, 2016, 18:45:49
The rules are so wishy-washy in the existing PF areas anyway- I know it's been discussed numerous times before, but as GWR have made a business decision to make most of their TVMs card only, PFs are unenforcible if you have the ability to pay the fare in cash. There are numerous reasons why you wouldn't want to use, or have a credit or debit card. There's no legislation in this country requiring you to carry one on public transport.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: grahame on April 30, 2016, 19:05:44
But the PA, according to the OP, says that from 23rd May, Penalty Fares will apply across the whole network.

I think what I heard being talked about was "Penalty Fare Rules"  - somewhat different in that penalty fare rules allow for the purchase of a ticket at the earliest opportunity where no opportunity was available at the joining station.  Though even there the new more detailed rule book is unclear, and even contradicts itself if we're reading pedantically.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: JayMac on April 30, 2016, 19:11:31
There are new 'Penalty Fares Rules'?

I thought the rules* as set by the defunct Strategic Rail Authority (and now overseen by the DfT) were the ones still in force.

Is there a link to this 'new more detailed rule book'?


*Regulation 11 of the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 1994. The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 1994 were made under section 130 of the Railways Act 1993, as amended by the Transport Act 2000.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: stuving on April 30, 2016, 19:17:34
But the PA, according to the OP, says that from 23rd May, Penalty Fares will apply across the whole network.

The whole network includes the Cornish branches, the Severn Beach line, Castle Cary to Dorchester West, stations such as Dilton Marsh, Avoncliff, Castle Bar Park, Shiplake, Weston Milton, Culham, Finstock...

A simple final few words on the recorded announcement are all that is needed, "...except if you start your journey at a station with neither ticket purchasing facilities nor a Permit To Travel machine"

Passengers have to be accurate in their ticket purchase and use, on pain of criminal sanction. The least train operators can to is be clear and accurate in their pronouncements regarding passenger's obligations.

But the rules for charging PFs in PF areas always did have a lot of conditions - about notices, ways to pay at stations, staff training, etc. So the exclusion of stations not listed as PF stations isn't new. If the PF area is extended, that doesn't mean all the newly included stations will be PF stations.

I had assumed it was a requirement for PF area that only a few stations were excluded. The current rules under which PF schemes operate (as opposed to the rules for passengers) were explained by the SRA here (http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110721141903/http:/www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/penaltyfarespolicyb.pdf) (I don't know if here's a current equivalent of this). The relevant bit is part of section 4 "How we will decide whether to approve a penalty fares scheme" (my emphaisis):

Quote
Penalty fares stations
4.4
Passengers on a penalty fares train may only be charged a penalty fare if they got on that train
at a station which has been named as a ^penalty fares station^ by the relevant penalty fares
scheme. At these stations, penalty fares warning notices must be displayed and sufficient
ticket facilities provided.
4.5
Operators must normally name each of the stations served by penalty fares trains as a penalty
fares station.
For example, if all trains within an area bounded by stations x, y and z have been
named  as  penalty  fares  trains,  all  stations  within  that  area,  including  x,  y  and  z,  should
normally be named as penalty fares stations. However, an operator may not want to include
certain stations for a number of reasons. For example, if the station:
^ has no ticket facilities as it is unstaffed, and not enough passengers use the station to justify
a ticket or ^permit to travel^ machine (PERTIS);
^ has no ticket facilities as it is unstaffed, and the amount of vandalism means that it is not
practical to maintain an operational ticket or ^permit to travel^ machine; or
^ serves a port or airport and is used by a large number of foreign visitors and people who do
not often travel by train, making it undesirable to charge penalty fares to passengers from
this station.
Operators must make sure that if these stations are not made penalty fares stations, this does
not cause confusion or make the scheme difficult to explain to passengers.

At the start of section 4, it says: "A penalty fares scheme is most suited to urban or suburban train
services where most stations have ticket facilities, and where busy trains and short intervals
between stations make it impossible to check every passenger^s ticket between every stop." So do FGW now consider their whole network is like that?


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: grahame on April 30, 2016, 19:41:46
There are new 'Penalty Fares Rules'?

I thought the rules* as set by the defunct Strategic Rail Authority (and now overseen by the DfT) were the ones still in force.

Is there a link to this 'new more detailed rule book'?

Link to download is at https://www.gwr.com/your-journey/tickets-railcards-and-season-tickets/revenue-protection-policy

Document dated 13th April 2016 (so fairly new) and more on it than the page that links to it (so more detailed) ... I wouldn't pretend to know how it compares with past / previous versions


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: JayMac on April 30, 2016, 20:43:32
That's just GWR's revenue protection policy..

As far as I'm aware there has been no change to the overarching Penalty Fares rules as set by the DfT, nor the legislation that backs up those rules.

I've also not yet found any reference to GWR making the necessary legally required requests to add to or amend their existing Penalty Fares schemes.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: stuving on April 30, 2016, 21:02:30
That's just GWR's revenue protection policy..

As far as I'm aware there has been no change to the overarching Penalty Fares rules as set by the DfT, nor the legislation that backs up those rules.

I've also not yet found any reference to GWR making the necessary legally required requests to add to or amend their existing Penalty Fares schemes.

I couldn't see any mention of public notices in the SRA's version of the approval regime. The relevant bits (heavily edited) were:
Quote
3.2
Any train operator who wants to introduce a penalty fares scheme must do the following.
a    Send a notice, at least three months before the date on which it is proposed to begin
charging penalty fares, to:
i     the     SRA;
ii    the Rail Passengers Committee for any area in which the proposed scheme will apply;
and
iii   the relevant Passenger Transport Executive, if an operator wants a train service which
is sponsored by a Passenger Transport Executive, or which passes through an area
covered by a Passenger Transport Executive, to become a penalty fares train.
...
3.3
The SRA will consider the proposed scheme, taking account of all relevant matters including
the policy set out in the SRA penalty fares policy statement. The SRA may, after consulting
any Rail Passengers Committee and Passenger Transport Executive referred to in rule 3.2,
approve or reject the proposed scheme, giving notice to the operator in writing. The SRA will
send a copy of this notice to everyone who received a copy of the notice referred to in rule 3.2.
3.4
If  the  SRA  approves  the  proposed  scheme,  the  operator  must  arrange  for  notices  to  be
displayed in clearly visible positions at each station which is to become a penalty fares station,
advising passengers that a penalty fares scheme is to be introduced. These notices must be
displayed for at least three weeks before the scheme is introduced, and must be in line with
rule 4.3.

AFAIK the SRA's role has reverted to DfT, and the Rail Passengers Committees have been replaced and renamed more than once to become Transport Focus, but has the process changed?


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: ellendune on April 30, 2016, 21:04:42
Is there anything equivalent to penalty fares on buses?


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: JayMac on April 30, 2016, 21:12:50
The process for setting up, or amending, a Penalty Fares scheme hasn't changed as far as I can make out. Just some of the names of the players.

For the process to change I suspect, at the very least, an amendment to the legislation, by way of statutory instrument, would be required.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: LiskeardRich on April 30, 2016, 21:41:16
Heard the same announcement at Truro.
Also heard an RPI sell a ticket and then give someone words of warning of the forthcoming changes.

Not sure whether GWR have taken on more RPIs or just out of luck I've encountered them more, but I've seen a lot of RPIs in Cornwall recently as well as use of manual full checks at unbarriered stations, especially st Austell.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: stuving on April 30, 2016, 21:51:28
For the process to change I suspect, at the very least, an amendment to the legislation, by way of statutory instrument, would be required.

That would imply that the current procedure is set out in some SI, but I don't think it is. It appears to be covered by the Secretary of State's "power by regulations to make provision..." (previously vested in the SRA) in s130 of the Railways Act 1993 (as amended). The regulations applying to passengers have to be put in an SI, but I don't think the process for applying those rules to particular areas does. Which is odd, really.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: ellendune on April 30, 2016, 22:34:37
For the process to change I suspect, at the very least, an amendment to the legislation, by way of statutory instrument, would be required.

That would imply that the current procedure is set out in some SI, but I don't think it is. It appears to be covered by the Secretary of State's "power by regulations to make provision..." (previously vested in the SRA) in s130 of the Railways Act 1993 (as amended). The regulations applying to passengers have to be put in an SI, but I don't think the process for applying those rules to particular areas does. Which is odd, really.

The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 1994 (specifically Reg 11) provide for the SRA to make rules covering this matter. The SRA's rules which I assume are still in force are as Stuving set out earlier.  Any change to an operators scheme must be subject to consultation.  That includes which stations are included. 

Edited to add more detail


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: Henry on May 01, 2016, 11:23:11

 From what I understand, Ticket Examiner's are now qualified to administer penalty fares.
 Listening to the announcements at Totnes, which I presume are the same at most stations,
 There is no change to the policy, ''buy a ticket before you board, unless facilities are not available''.
 
 Unfortunately, like many other stations, Totnes has the situation of being a busy station, poor ticket office
 opening hours (0725-1600), and a busy ticket machine.
 So in my case, allow plenty of time to buy my ticket then using the excellent facilities at 'The Signal Box Cafe'.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: ChrisB on May 01, 2016, 11:26:33
I can't remotely access that GWR attachment from my phone - is there anything in that pdf file that doesn't agree with the current PF rules?

In other words, are they purely saying that PF rules that are current will be applied more thoroughly from May 23?


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: ChrisB on May 01, 2016, 11:28:11
Hdney's post sbove may back up my thoughts - that there are more qualified to issue PF folk on the netwofk & they've been instructed to operate PF where its possible. Therefore those without tickets are motlre likely to be caught...hence the warning


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: stuving on May 01, 2016, 11:57:53
I can't remotely access that GWR attachment from my phone - is there anything in that pdf file that doesn't agree with the current PF rules?

In other words, are they purely saying that PF rules that are current will be applied more thoroughly from May 23?

I don't think there is any change in the rules. I understood the reported announcement to be about the extent of the penalty fares area.

The second GWR download (Buy before you board (https://www.gwr.com/~/media/gwr/pdfs/your-journey/journey-information/revenue-protection-policy/gwr-buy-before-you-board-v12.pdf?la=en)) has this right at the start:
Quote
If you board any of our trains without a valid ticket, at a station where ticket buying facilities are available, you may be charged the full Single or Return fare relevant to your journey, be reported for prosecution, or receive a Penalty Fare if travelling from a station within the Penalty Fares Zones (see maps overleaf).

There are three maps (at the end of the online version) with a key that says:
[grey blob]  This station is in the Penalty Fares scheme
[green blob] This station is not in the Penalty Fares scheme
[grey line]   This is not a penalty fares line

There are also green lines, not in the key, which you'd expect to be the penalty fares lines - but for some reason are not defined. So much for the requirement "Operators must make sure that if these stations are not made penalty fares stations, this does not cause confusion or make the scheme difficult to explain to passengers." - just the daft choice of blob colours alone conflicts with that.

The maps have no heading or anything other than the key and that reference in the text to say what they are - so they do not provide information about where the penalty fares area is or isn't. Which makes it hard to interpret what extending its boundaries would mean.

The green lines, whatever they are, cover Paddington to Oxford and Westbury and all branches including to Guildford and Basingstoke, Cheltenham to Tiverton and Bristol TM to Swindon and Westbury, plus Exmouth to Truro and Paignton but no other branches. Yes, there are gaps in that - Didcot to Swindon, and Tiverton to Exeter SD.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: JayMac on May 01, 2016, 12:20:42
My point remains that GWR are telling a terminological inexactitude. "From May 23rd Penalty fares will apply to the whole network"

Except they can't and won't.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: Ollie on May 02, 2016, 10:55:21
I've been told the announcement says:

"From the 23rd of May 2016 Penalty Fares will apply across the entire Great Western Railway network.
Please ensure you buy your ticket before you board, where facilities are available.
For more information please visit GWR.com/revenueprotection"


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: ChrisB on May 02, 2016, 11:03:04
But as everyone is commenting Ollie, that is incorrect & untrue


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: stuving on May 02, 2016, 12:45:39
But as everyone is commenting Ollie, that is incorrect & untrue

I'm not. I don't see any problem with the "whole network" bit. It's not a legally-vetted complete statement of the penalty fares rules, it's a PA announcement. So if it's trying to say the penalty fares area is now the whole network, that's fine.

However, the information on GWR.com/revenueprotection is very confused and confusing, and says something quite different. That is a problem.



Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: Ollie on May 03, 2016, 01:53:14
But as everyone is commenting Ollie, that is incorrect & untrue

I was clarifying the announcement - which hadn't been mentioned in full. I am not currently in a position to say anything about the actual scheme itself until I'm back at work and can try get something more specific.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: JayMac on May 07, 2016, 23:54:33
To go along with the PA announcements there is now a poster at stations that continues the lie that, from May 23rd, Penalty Fares "will apply across our entire network" (my emphasis).

The poster helpfully skewers that statement by showing the lines and stations where Penalty Fares won't apply.  ::)

(http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt68/bignosemac/PFPoster_zpslakxncme.jpg)


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: LiskeardRich on May 08, 2016, 07:38:11
Somebody needs a lesson in English language as clearly not the entire network. The branch lines make up the entire network, but are excluded from penalty fares and don't have ticket facilities


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: grahame on May 08, 2016, 08:44:31
As I have an excellent group of knowledgable pedants here  ;D - can you let me know if this look right as something to scream and shout ...

Quote
If you're travelling by train in or from Wiltshire, please buy your ticket before you join the train if there's an opportunity to do so. Most stations are now equipped with ticket vending machines (TVMs) available at all times, and many have staffed booking offices which are open during busier parts of the day.

Travelling without a ticket or other permit to travel when you have had an opportunity to obtain one is an offence - and attempting to avoid paying is fraud. There are already "penalty fare" regimes in place in parts of the county, but as from 23rd May these are being extended.   Where you can't get a ticket at the station before you join, you'll still be able to buy one from the conductor, but do make sure you seek him out to do so.

Ticket income is a vital to the train operating companies in keeping our trains running, and avoiding fares having to go higher.  Ticket sales data is also used to assess changing (growing, in the case of the TransWilts) demand - so a significant propoprtion of unticketed travellers can lead to fewer and shorter trains than we need - the victims of fare evasion are not only the railway industry, but also your fellow travellers, your friends, and you yourself.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: John R on May 08, 2016, 14:06:27
In the first sentence I would replace "please" by "you must now".  Please indicates a degree of optionality that doesn't exist under the new regime.

I would add to the second paragraph.  "Note that not having time to buy a ticket (including having to queue) is not normally regarded as an acceptable reason for not buying before you board. "

If people (say at MKM) are used to buying on board, I do wonder whether now they have to buy at the machine it will create too long a queue.  If 15 people are buying a ticket (maybe more on a Monday for weeklies?) is it reasonable to expect people to turn up 15 min early (assuming 1 min per transaction). Will any monitoring be done I wonder?



Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: JayMac on May 08, 2016, 14:22:27
Seeking out a Conductor/Train Manager is not required, and in some cases may be pointless if the conductor is busy with safety critical duties.

Leaving your seat in Coach A to go and find the Train Manager in Coach L isn't always practical either. Luggage and personal items may have to be left unattended, and if there's another station call while you're away you may lose your seat.

I'd remove any reference to having to seek out staff on board. It is not something passengers are required to do.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: stuving on May 08, 2016, 14:57:14
This is what GWR say (in "Buy before you board"):
What if there are long queues at the ticket office?
This is the main reason given for not purchasing a ticket by those with no intention of paying. It makes it impossible for us to distinguish a genuine case from a dishonest case, and in these circumstances a Penalty Fare will be issued.

So, you are happy to penalize the innocent because of the shortcomings of your own systems, are you? Well, thanks a bunch for that. At least I know where we stand.
GWR monitors queuing times at it's stations in order to minimise waiting times. Authorised Collectors are supplied with information detailing problems with ticket offices, including closures outside the advertised times, as well as heavy queuing.
Why? You've just said you will issue penalty fares in all cases. But now it looks like there is some limit - what is it? I see. And how long is that bit of string in your pocket?
Self-service ticket machines are also available at most stations.
That'll be the things with the queues in front, will it?


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: grahame on May 08, 2016, 15:09:11
In the first sentence I would replace "please" by "you must now".  Please indicates a degree of optionality that doesn't exist under the new regime.

I would add to the second paragraph.  "Note that not having time to buy a ticket (including having to queue) is not normally regarded as an acceptable reason for not buying before you board. "

If people (say at MKM) are used to buying on board, I do wonder whether now they have to buy at the machine it will create too long a queue.  If 15 people are buying a ticket (maybe more on a Monday for weeklies?) is it reasonable to expect people to turn up 15 min early (assuming 1 min per transaction). Will any monitoring be done I wonder?

Good points; I'm amending my text to reflect your suggestions ("please" to "you must" and adding in a note to tell people to allow time to queue, but leaving out the threat your text seems to make - delicate balance).

A considerable proportion of Melksham tickets are paid in cash.  The TVM has already helped reduce the number of on-train transactions so it's easier for the train manager to get through (i.e. it's less often now that he / she can't get through) which has helped reduce free rides to Chippenham in particular. A more pro-active encouragement to use the machine will help a little more, and ticket barriers at Chippenham, which are planned, will provide a further opportunity to pay for people travelling from Melksham to Chippenham with cash.

With morning traffic slip more or less evenly between the 07:20 and 07:49 trains, the number of people poking to purchase at the same time may not be as high as you might expect, and the cash issue reduces it further - but certainly worth keeping an eye one.

Two other thoughts.

1. The TVM's screen can be virtually unreadable when the afternoon light's shining on it.   At  such times, is it offering an opportunity to buy tickets?

2. Although you have picked on (and I have answered for) Melksham, please don't think it's the biggest uncollected fares problem in West Wilts - it certain isn't!

Seeking out a Conductor/Train Manager is not required, and in some cases may be pointless if the conductor is busy with safety critical duties.

Leaving your seat in Coach A to go and find the Train Manager in Coach L isn't always practical either. Luggage and personal items may have to be left unattended, and if there's another station call while you're away you may lose your seat.

I'd remove any reference to having to seek out staff on board. It is not something passengers are required to do.

Taking the smaller stations / more local trains where there's likely to have been less chance to buy, "chance would be a fine thing" to have a coach L  ;)  ... but I do agree about leaving luggage (and you might get told off for walking through first class or charged a first class fare if you find him / here there.).   There's no requirement to seek, I agree - but it's a useful confirmation that you're not out to defraud the railway if you ask to buy a ticket on a local train with just a couple of carriages.  Will look towards wording as "you may".





Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: John R on May 08, 2016, 15:51:55
Thanks. It wasn't meant as a threat. More a clarification that it would be unwise to interpret the comment "When you can't get a ticket at the station before you join" as including those who turn up with one minute to spare.

Melksham was chosen as up until now it's been excluded from the scheme, despite having (of late) a ticket machine. So it is one station where people's buying habits may need to change as a result of the extension of the PF scheme.

Of course (and this is hypothetical and not linked to any station) it's a moot point if when the train arrives there are still 10 people queuing to use the machine. One might use the argument that you should have arrived earlier, but all that would have done is likely moved you up the queue and left someone else now with the problem. If it happens on a regular basis it's evidence that the ticket purchasing facilities are inadequate.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: LiskeardRich on May 08, 2016, 22:26:35
At smaller stations, that have ticket offices the ticket office clerk is also the dispatch staff. Redruth on an evening springs to mind as somewhere I have regularly travelled from.
Ticket office clerk shuts up 5 minutes before the train is due to go and prepare and commence dispatch duties. Thus it's not possible to buy a ticket 5 minutes before a train is due, probably the time when its most needed!
If you have a north and south (or is it east and west?) bound service due within 5 mins of each other you have no ticket office for 10 mins before the latter train.
Onboard RPI don't accept this and opt for the blanket there is a ticket office with opening hours,, and I've intervened in the past where a RPI has started on a TIR for someone not buying before boarding at Redruth. (I was on a season but arrived at the same time as the chap RPI was going to report for fare evasion.
It also doesn't help with XC Train managers actively promote buying on board their services. I was travelling recently with a friend who travels on the same xc service most days, he opted not to buy a ticket before boarding knowing it was a xc service, friend told TM he didn't buy as had to run for the train, TM replied 'don't worry, we're quite happy to sell onboard.' The TM did warn him GWR may prosecute him if he did it on one of their trains. The two different policies will certainly cause confusion for someone less aware that they can buy onboard ok from XC. I suspect my friend gets a fair few free journeys.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: Ollie on May 08, 2016, 22:51:36
Be careful referring to Cross Country letting you buy on board as being their policy...because it's not.

https://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/customer-service/no-ticket

Just a brief quote from that link:

"No ticket?

Important information for you.           

The information below highlights some key points in relation to your responsibilities as well as outlining where you can obtain further information.

We expect our customers to board our trains with a valid ticket for travel where the facilities exist for you to buy one before boarding, and it is your responsibility to have purchased a valid ticket before travelling. It is also your responsibility to produce this ticket when asked. "

It's a longer policy, including their prosecutions policy should you wish to read it.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on May 09, 2016, 18:03:05
It's worth emphasizing that most small stations' ticket vending machines (for example, those at Melksham and Nailsea & Backwell) do not accept payment in cash.  Therefore, if you wish to purchase your ticket with cash, you have not had an 'opportunity to buy your ticket before boarding' (the vagaries of the opening hours of the ticket cabin at NLS notwithstanding  ::) ).

I therefore board my Great Western Railway train at Nailsea and make a point of proffering my exact change to the conductor on board as soon as an opportunity presents itself.  I have been met with nothing more than very grateful thanks for giving them some much-needed loose change, over the years ...  :P ::) ;D


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: LiskeardRich on May 09, 2016, 20:18:46
Be careful referring to Cross Country letting you buy on board as being their policy...because it's not.

https://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/customer-service/no-ticket

Just a brief quote from that link:

"No ticket?

Important information for you.           

The information below highlights some key points in relation to your responsibilities as well as outlining where you can obtain further information.

We expect our customers to board our trains with a valid ticket for travel where the facilities exist for you to buy one before boarding, and it is your responsibility to have purchased a valid ticket before travelling. It is also your responsibility to produce this ticket when asked. "

It's a longer policy, including their prosecutions policy should you wish to read it.

And that makes it more of an issue, and I've seen it from more than one TM. I won't post details of services as clearly they aren't acting in line with policy.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: JayMac on October 27, 2022, 14:53:24
The Penalty Fare for travelling with an invalid, or no, ticket is increasing from £20 to £100 in January to 2023. Reduced to £50 if paid within 21 days.

 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63412378


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: ChrisB on October 27, 2022, 15:06:55
Announced last night. With the strict proviso that the 21 days is extended to start after any appeal is complete, I have no problem with this. Its the same as a speeding fine, buy a ticket when you are meant to & it will never apply.

Will need to await the finer detail.

Shouldn't this thread be in the 'Fares Fair' board? ::)


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: grahame on October 27, 2022, 16:07:24
Shouldn't this thread be in the 'Fares Fair' board? ::)

Good point - it is now. All 45 posts in the thread!

I've no concern in principle - provided we're certain that the system is reasonably and fairly aoplied, and doesn't make people feel all the more threatened when they know they don't know the system and have to make an educated guess at an unmanned station, or cannot pay because there was no working way to do so!


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: ChrisB on October 27, 2022, 16:11:27
Re your first point, I agree that the warning posters need far more detailed info on them - but they are at entrances to stations correctly & difficult to miss.

Re your second, agree wholeheartedly. But TOCs do know what is out of order & list them under their journeycheck pages.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: grahame on October 27, 2022, 16:26:12
Re your first point, I agree that the warning posters need far more detailed info on them - but they are at entrances to stations correctly & difficult to miss.

Re your second, agree wholeheartedly. But TOCs do know what is out of order & list them under their journeycheck pages.


Past experience does not re-assure me ... but then the incidents I'm thinking of are now historic and perhaps the railways don't make mistakes like the ticket clerk selling you the wrong ticket these days, and perhaps the train manager can always be  found if you board at an unmanned / no ticket available station, and leave at one that has a blockade.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: broadgage on October 27, 2022, 19:51:24
No objection to the increased penalty provided that this is applied fairly.
I have witnessed more than one case of penalty fares being applied unreasonably.

Passengers with tickets valid on booked train only.
They boarded a train at the correct time, as stated on the tickets.
In fact it was an earlier train running late and penalty fares were charged.
Some passengers paid up. Others said that they would "deal with" those demanding extra payment.



Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: Marlburian on October 28, 2022, 16:17:50
Interesting (??) experience at Reading Station today when I was meeting a friend (who'd left home in Slovakia at 0130  ::) carrying a heavy case). I asked at the ticket office if I could buy a platform ticket (the last time I did so was at Torquay Station c1960 for 1d). No need, I was told, just explain at the gate and they'll let you through. Only my friend, who hasn't been to England in four years, took a Crossrail train, rather than a non-stopper. From the deck, I didn't see her get off what I thought might be her train and had previously texted her to wait for me INSIDE the ticket gates. Only she found her way to the Heathrow coach office to book a ticket for a journey later on. (Only it was closed ...) I approached the gates with no luggage-heavy friend and with trepidation, but the official (who I think might have been a supervisor) let me though immediately after I'd stuttered a few works of explanation.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: ChrisB on November 06, 2022, 19:00:41
No objection to the increased penalty provided that this is applied fairly.
I have witnessed more than one case of penalty fares being applied unreasonably.

Passengers with tickets valid on booked train only.
They boarded a train at the correct time, as stated on the tickets.
In fact it was an earlier train running late and penalty fares were charged.
Some passengers paid up. Others said that they would "deal with" those demanding extra payment.

Are you sure they weren't being charged an excess rather than a penalty fare - the latter I understand can't be charged where a ticket is held for the journey in question but at the wrong rate. Only excesses in that case.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: CyclingSid on November 07, 2022, 06:59:51
Is there a convenient definition and general guidance on excess fares.

Finally managed to get one from a Southern train the other weekend (£0.00), rather than just being charged for the leg of the journey.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: ChrisB on November 07, 2022, 11:27:47
I would suggest staeting a new topic on that.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: ChrisB on January 21, 2023, 14:30:45
Be warned - there *are* differences in the new Penalty Fare over the old one!

see attached photo of the warning poster that has gone up over the last week or so - this was at Oxford....

Under the conditions (over on the right, towards the bottom) where you can be charged, the last one has been amended to add "....or on a train service where your ticket is not valid" - so no good buying off-peak ticket & asking for an excess if you get challenged, for example. You have to excess before boarding now or be liable.

Also, note right at the bottom - XC and TfW services are excluded from the scheme.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: Oxonhutch on January 21, 2023, 15:22:05
Does that conflict with the National Conditions of Travel [sic] ?


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: ChrisB on January 21, 2023, 15:22:46
Presumably they'll also be amended to ensure they don't


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: CyclingSid on January 21, 2023, 18:48:39
How do you buy an excess at an unmanned station, without a smartphone (assuming you can buy one with a smartphone). Or do I risk putting one foot on the train and ask the Guard/TM for an excess?

Sorry but my cycle trips don't always run to the smooth pre-planning expected by the railway owners/operators.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: ChrisB on January 21, 2023, 19:06:05
The buy at first opportunity rule still aoplies i think


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: grahame on January 21, 2023, 20:04:37
How do you buy an excess at an unmanned station, without a smartphone (assuming you can buy one with a smartphone). Or do I risk putting one foot on the train and ask the Guard/TM for an excess?

Sorry but my cycle trips don't always run to the smooth pre-planning expected by the railway owners/operators.

The buy at first opportunity rule still aoplies i think

I would think so.  My standard practice and advice for passengers cannot buy the ticket they want at the station is to tell the train manager on the platform and ask if he will sell them a ticket. (And that could be modified to "I cannot excess it at the machine).  I doubt you would have a problem.   Do not board the train without comment and go straight into the loo if you do not have a ticket!


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: froome on January 21, 2023, 20:32:18
How do you buy an excess at an unmanned station, without a smartphone (assuming you can buy one with a smartphone). Or do I risk putting one foot on the train and ask the Guard/TM for an excess?

Sorry but my cycle trips don't always run to the smooth pre-planning expected by the railway owners/operators.

The buy at first opportunity rule still aoplies i think

I would think so.  My standard practice and advice for passengers cannot buy the ticket they want at the station is to tell the train manager on the platform and ask if he will sell them a ticket. (And that could be modified to "I cannot excess it at the machine).  I doubt you would have a problem.   Do not board the train without comment and go straight into the loo if you do not have a ticket!

That seems slightly unrealistic. You have no idea which carriage the train manager will be in, and when they appear, they will not want to hang around the platform while you make your way towards them rather than boarding at the nearest door (which is what they usually ask people to do if they see anyone not getting on straight away).


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: ChrisB on January 21, 2023, 20:36:54
Hmmm. If they are asking you to join a train, you can see them, right?

Other than a 9/10 car IET, how long is your train?

They are quite easy to see from the platform as they are meant to step onto it to check that everyone is clear/on board.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: Bmblbzzz on January 21, 2023, 20:37:17
Especially as with a bike you're normally expected to board in a certain carriage, which may or may not be where the train manager is. In practice I find the TM almost always comes through twice, and only asks for tickets on the second pass; so I stop them the first time I see them and ask for a ticket. They usually say they'll come back in a few minutes...


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: grahame on January 21, 2023, 20:58:05
It makes sense if you can.  Where it's a 2 carriage train, it's usually practical, as it is at the likes of Avoncliff.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: froome on January 21, 2023, 21:07:16
Hmmm. If they are asking you to join a train, you can see them, right?

Other than a 9/10 car IET, how long is your train?

They are quite easy to see from the platform as they are meant to step onto it to check that everyone is clear/on board.

They can be 4 carriages. With severe arthritis, which I now have, it would take me a minute to walk that distance along the platform. I have often seen them shouting down for people to board quickly when they see someone starting to walk towards them.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: Ralph Ayres on January 21, 2023, 22:31:56

They can be 4 carriages. With severe arthritis, which I now have, it would take me a minute to walk that distance along the platform. I have often seen them shouting down for people to board quickly when they see someone starting to walk towards them.

You'll be fine so long as you try to engage if you have the chance, as mentioned by others. Just don't immediately fall asleep or put headphones on and look intently out of the window as an opportunity to buy a ticket walks by.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: CyclingSid on January 22, 2023, 11:24:16
Thank you for your comments.

The place where I tend to "run out of steam" or the weather catches me out is in Southern territory.

The train staff tend to give the impression of either not knowing what an excess is, or it is too difficult and just charge you for a single fair.The last time it happened there was a switched on train manager, but gosh it seems complicated, takes a number from your card ticket and has to wait while the machine finds the correct information. I now know that in this particular situation the excess is £0.00, and he did not issue me a ticket. If I am in this situation again I should get a ticket because the trains joins another one and there is a crew change.

To those who make the not unreasonable suggestion of getting one before I start, knowing the "cost" of it now, my thought would be a psychological pre-admission of failure. Especially if I am cycling north as the worst bit is yet to come.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: ChrisB on January 22, 2023, 16:40:40
I'd be interested to know officially whether a penalty fare could be issued under the regulations where the ticket might not be valid without an excess, but the excess is zero. There is no loss, and therefore you can't be accused of swindling money from the railways.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: ChrisB on January 22, 2023, 19:05:06
Also, note right at the bottom - XC and TfW services are excluded from the scheme.

Good start by National Rail - their web page here (https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/penalty-fares.aspx?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=Orlo&utm_content=Always+On) on thye 'new' Penalty Fare *includes* TfW services - where that poster clearly excludes them. I think that poster is correct & the web page is wrong.

Also, on that web page is the link to the amended legislation. For example, if the appeal isn't resolved within a set time period, you are absolved from paying the fine, but not the fare. Interesting reading.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: Sleepy on January 24, 2023, 18:14:26
  :o St Ives (and for that matter Barnstaple & Okehampton) are Interesting additions to penalty fare area - if the TVM's don't accept cash you could have one passenger wanting to pay by cash being sold a ticket and the one behind paying by card receives a penalty fare ??


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: JayMac on January 24, 2023, 19:49:29
  :o St Ives (and for that matter Barnstaple & Okehampton) are Interesting additions to penalty fare area - if the TVM's don't accept cash you could have one passenger wanting to pay by cash being sold a ticket and the one behind paying by card receives a penalty fare ??

Well yes. The latter has chosen to not purchase at the earliest opportunity.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: Sleepy on January 24, 2023, 19:59:16
Don't think average non-regular rail traveller tourists going for scenic ride to Carbis Bay (£2.00 return) or St Erth (£4 return) will be too impressed being asked to fork out £50 !!! Daily Mail would be thrilled to report this.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: ChrisB on January 24, 2023, 20:02:14
£102 or £104, reduced to £52/£54 if paid within 14 days....


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: grahame on January 24, 2023, 20:40:57
£102 or £104, reduced to £52/£54 if paid within 14 days....

It's £100 / £50 plus SINGLE fare, so £101 / £103 / £51 / £53 but if you're doing a day return you also need to buy your ticket the other way.

But noting from 2018 (https://www.savethestudent.org/news/debit-and-credit-card-surcharges-set-to-be-banned.html)
Quote
It's now illegal to charge an additional fee for paying by credit or debit card ...
how do the TOCs stand when a passenger from St Ives to (well, anywhere) asks to pay on the train stand with the legality of their penalty fares - £1 to Carbis Bay in cash, but £51 or £101 if you pay be card which is an additional fee if you pay by card.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: ChrisB on January 24, 2023, 20:53:55
It's not an additional card fee - it's a fine as the owner hasn't bought a ticket at the card-only ticket machine


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: grahame on January 24, 2023, 21:00:47
It's not an additional card fee - it's a fine as the owner hasn't bought a ticket at the card-only ticket machine

I thought there was a great care in the past to say it is NOT a fine as fines can only be issues by the courts and perhaps a few other organisations allowed.

Wikipedia tells me:

Quote
Typically penalty fares are incurred by passengers failing to purchase a ticket before travelling or by purchasing an incorrect ticket which does not cover their whole journey. Penalty fares are a civil debt, not a fine, and a person whose penalty fare is paid is not considered to have committed a criminal offence.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: ChrisB on January 24, 2023, 21:21:58
As it says, it is, only once paid. See what happens if you don’t pay it though. You sure wiuld get a criminal record


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: grahame on January 24, 2023, 21:27:49
As it says, it is, only once paid. See what happens if you don’t pay it though. You sure wiuld get a criminal record

And a cash fare is a civil debt too ... until paid.   It would take someone with a brass neck and plenty of time to waste to argue against a penalty fare because it's only applied to those who seek to pay by card, but the analyst in me wonders.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: 1st fan on January 25, 2023, 16:24:17
During the extremely hot weather last summer there were a few of the giant touchscreen ticket machines not responding at Paddington. I suspect it was the heat but I can’t prove that which caused the touchscreen to fail. Anyway I waited in a long line at one of the functioning ones and despite having 15 mins before the train was due to leave I hadn’t got close to the front when the final boarding call went out. I ran to the gateline and explained my situation. He had seen the queues at the machines and the ticket office and accepted that I’d buy one on the train so let me through. Train Manager almost yelled at me to get on and once we were moving came round to check tickets. She was very surprised that I had made it through the barriers with no ticket but accepted that I was willing to pay and sold me a ticket. I didn’t ask for the Goldcard discount but did show mine anyway, she didn’t offer it either. She advised me in future to get to the station earlier or risk a penalty fare. I thought 15 mins should be plenty of time.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: JayMac on January 25, 2023, 16:40:37
15 mins is plenty of time usually.

Arguably, you had no opportunity to purchase at the station, so buying at the first available opportunity (on board) should be permitted.

Further defence is the gateline staff letting you through. That's tacit permission to travel.

Ultimately though, only a court could rule on whether you did or didn't break the law. They'd have to rule on that 15 minutes and the gateline staff 'permission'.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: grahame on January 25, 2023, 21:12:40
15 mins is plenty of time usually.

Yes - but I have specifically asked in the past how long before your train you should arrive if you need to by a ticket, asking "is 15 minutes enough?" as it happens and had a none-committal answer from a member of staff.  I recall the answer well, thinking it was as useful as a chocolate teapot.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: johnneyw on January 26, 2023, 15:19:33
Something of a first for me on the Severn Beach Line.  Announcement today over the public address system by the train manager that this was now a penalty fare line with the new £100 rather than £20 penalty fare in force for those boarding without tickets.  She still seemed to be issuing tickets and the announcement took the form more of a forewarning than one of imminent doom to ticketless passengers that hadn't yet realised this......and yes, I purchased my Totnes return using the platform machine.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: Mark A on January 28, 2023, 11:18:42
Need to work up a cartoon where the famous five, out on a dashing adventure, get slammed with a penalty fare each and have to explain the £500 + five-times-single-fare hit to their guardians.

Seriously, this is an approach that the railway needs to have *up* its sleeve, not wear *on* its sleeve.

Mark


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: JayMac on January 28, 2023, 12:47:33
Because of engineering works, including rail replacement buses, on my route home, I decided to excess my ticket to change the route to allow travel via London. I did this because of the uncertainty of Finn being allowed on the replacement transport. Been turned away before.

Ticket office clerk at Ramsgate couldn't do the excess, claiming it wasn't possible or allowed. Refused to give me authority to travel. Didn't see a guard on the platform when my chosen train arrived. Boarded, keeping my fingers crossed I'd encounter a sympathetic guard and not a jobsworth RPI.

Guard did appear after Ashford Intl and knew about change of route excesses but didn't know how to do one. He suggested I ask at Stratford Intl where I was changing to Stratford Regional for Elizabeth Line to Paddington, thence Reading for Salisbury and home to Templecombe. Forgot to ask him to endorse my ticket.

Spoke with gateline staff at Stratford Intl. Directed to window on the paid side of the gateline. Two staff in conference got the excess done, relatively easily. Using the same TIS that the Ramsgate clerk said couldn't issue and from which he wasn't allowed to issue.

Change of route excess fares are codified in the National Rail Conditions of Travel.

I post this on the Penalty Fares thread because its an example of a customer doing the best they can to have the correct ticket for the journey they're undertaking, only to have lies and difficulties placed in their way. Leaving them liable to a Penalty Fare should they encounter unsympathetic revenue protection staff.


Title: Re: Penalty Fares
Post by: CyclingSid on January 29, 2023, 08:52:53
As in my comment, there appears to be a lack of knowledge about excess tickets among railway staff. It would be helpful (and ethical?) if there was a serious training commitment on the subject to train crew in the first instance, followed by ticketting staff. Rather than just slam genuine travellers for as much money as possible.

Winchester yesterday, all ticket office staff on lunch break and non-functioning ticket machine(s), train managers response was to refuse boarding, glad it wasn't me.



This page is printed from the "Coffee Shop" forum at http://gwr.passenger.chat which is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway. Views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that content provided contravenes our posting rules ( see http://railcustomer.info/1761 ). The forum is hosted by Well House Consultants - http://www.wellho.net