Great Western Coffee Shop

Apologies if this has been posted before but this is something I have noticed happening with increasing regularity over the last several months.

Over the course of around a single hour i.e. 5 till 6pm there are only several trains on local services i.e Keynsham, Oldfield Park etc. So for say departing temple meads their are the following services

16.49 3 carriages (very occasionally 2)
17.06 4 carriages (sometimes reduced to 2
17.49 3 carriages
18.04 mostly 2 carriages

(Note I know that there are other local services that go at other times that occasionally stop at Keynsham)

Thats the roughly the equivalent of 2 HSTs in carriage numbers?

Most of these trains are standing all the way through from at least 5mins before departure on an almost daily occurance However to be honest I try to see the funny side of the situation but sensibly speaking is it safe to have this number of people on a train? Especially if it has to brake sharply for one reason or another?

I think the busiest one was last week on the 7.49 (a 4 car) out of Oldfield park going towards Temple Meads when the train turned up it was standing to the point that people were glaring at each other and a few commenting that it was unusually more squashed than usual! Of course when we got to Keynsham I think some people probably couldn't get on. It almost got to the point where I was thinking Japanese train packers should be employed by GWR to push people on!? :o

A solution could be to use an HST on the local services - I admit that they wouldn't be able to run at 125mph but it would certainly solve the space issue. I know that they can stop at my local station because one did stop last winter when there were signalling problems delaying all the local services and it was very cold so the local train staff made the call to pick people up at the local stations. (which was appreciated by the passengers)

Not being able to travel on the rest of the local network at peak hours is this normal for most trains across the west.

There isn't the fleet capacity to utilise HSTs for local stopping services. They are predominately long distance rolling stock designed to move people to/from larger stations or to/from London and the regions.

Good questions.

Passenger numbers (ticketed station entries and exits) were forecast to rise by 0.8% per annum compound from 2005 for the following 10 years, and the timetable and stock levels were planned in that anticipation.  So at Keynsham the expectation was a rise from 169,000 to around 183,000 journeys, and at Oldfield Park from around 150,000 journeys to around 162,000 journeys.

The First group, winning the Greater Western franchise to run from 2006, budgeted for those predicted figures and reduced the amount of rolling stock in their pool as previously services hadn't been particularly busy, and it was felt extravagent to have carriages on hire which (basically) were only required to avoid people having to stand for 10 minutes into Temple Meads in the morning and 6 minutes out in the evening.

Problem was ... growth has been 9.3% compound at Keynsham and 7.6% compound at Oldfield Park, and what just looks like a few percentage points one year builds up.   Keynsham last year had 412,600 journeys rather than the 183,000 anticipated, and Oldfield Park had 313,000 rather than the 163,000 anticipated.  And whilst plans have been changed to bring in more carriages, they don't grow on trees, they cost a lot of money to hire (more than the extra income they make if only really needed at the peak), and the story's the same in lots of other places.

No spare HSTs around ... though I think a couple of HST stops at Keynsham are in the timetable?   Plans are to double the local service under Metro West - with twice the frequency of trains calling at the two stations, but that's years rather than months int the future.  And again the economic case is really made if you can get good loadings all through the day; a quick look at a timetable shows 30 services calling at Keynsham into Bristol at present - so that's 60 trains overall (both directions) ... about 20,000 services a year, which is an average of 10 people getting onto and 10 people getting off each train (say 4 getting in and out of each carriage if you take the trains as being 2 or 3 carriages long).    The maths is frightening - start working out percentage seat occupation though the day ...

I fear you'll have to wait for the new millennium (March 2019, in this context). I'm assuming you are talking about the peak-flow directions into Bristol for work and then out, though that's not quite clear.

The Service Level Commitment for the GW franchise actually calls for only 1 train/hr plus one more within 16:30-18:30 on the Bristol-Westbury local services, so GWR are already running more than that. But it's really capacity that counts, not the number of trains. Here, the SLC is much less detailed.

The Capacity Requirement is only defined into Paddington and a few other cites, and in terms of the morning peak only. Common sense says that the evening service has to match it, but if there is a note somewhere saying that I've not found it. For Bristol TM, the current (May 2015) capacity has to be at least maintained until March 2019, and that is 3402 on trains to/from London and 6462 on other trains. It's not divided by route, and peak means arrivals from 7 to 9 a.m..

After March 2019, the requirement is split into 7-8 and 8-9, and is 4100+800 on London trains and 9000+4100 on other trains. That's roughly double. (The words actually call this "an increment", which would mean a tripling, but I suspect that's sloppy wording.)

This is made possible by all those DMUs cascading across the country to escape from marauding volts. Whether that will actually happen with the implied timings is anyone's guess.

Several years ago I remember seeing some Mk2 or Mk3 stock sitting in sidings at Ludgershall, probably mothballed for the MOD and there were some older Mk3's rolling round the west region hauled by a 66 that I remember turning up a Weymouth once when there also seemed to be a stock shortage. Its a pity that there isn't a bay platform at Bath either only the loops to the west and east for having a train lay over in, but I doubt that they can increase capacity on the number of trains going out along that line. It does look really full on Real Time Trains timetables and they have to allow frieight / special pathing as well.

Surely there must be a few spare 156's kicking about somewhere. I must admit I have had one or two trains that have been 5 carriages   :o :o :) where they have coupled a 150 and a 156 together. They could couple two 156's up and get 6 carriages, again I think this would sort the problems of overcrowding. They could run as far as Westbury and then detach.

There really are no spare dmu's around at the moment, anywhere in the country. And if there were there are several TOC's that would be keen to snap them up. And I believe a couple of the peak services do already detach units at Westbury to try and maximise capacity.

Though I'm slightly more optimistic in terms of when Thames valley electrification will start to release some turbos.  The line should be available as far as Didcot by December 17, so I'm sure GWR will be keen to get their Class 387s earning their keep as soon as possible. The question is whether the Turbos released will be able to be used to enhance capacity in the west immediately, as there may be commitments in terms of releasing Class 150 stock for the Northern franchises that contractually have to be kept.   

They managed to find HSTs on summer Plymouth to Penzance stoppers last summer- a look at the timetable will highlight which ones by the Plymouth to Penzance stopper services with 1st class.
This year doesn't seem to be same frequency of the stoppers with 1st class only:

Saturdays
0818, 1752 ex Plymouth
and
1500 ex Penzance.

Last summer a HST spent all day Saturday running back and forth between Penzance and Plymouth.

Oh well hopefully the Roscos will order some more to meet demand? But I guess we will end up with 165's or 166's to go with the 156's and 158s.

On Westbury / Weymouth services they run 2x 150's or a 2 car 156 and 150 coupled up and detach them at Westbury with the 156 usually proceeding to Weymouth - which makes sense to me. Its when they run a 2 car in lieu of a usual 4 car that it gets interesting at temple meads.....

Something that I usually forget about is the SWT service that runs into Temple Meads about 8.30am - I have to always remember that it has 1st class taking up half of one of the 3 carriages.

Just have to wait and see I guess.

That's been a hope in the past but not happened.  RoSCos ordering capital equipment need to be reassured it will have a 30 year payback, not the 10 years of a long franchise so won't order without DfT guarantee, especially as creeping electrification reduces the need for diesels.    Besides, if you have a scarce product you can make more money by auctioning it to the highest lease bidder whereas is there were to be a glut of trains there would be less money in it per train, so it's in the RoSCos interest to tend towards a shortage.

Didn't think we had 156s in the area?  They're like a pair of 153s and I understood they were native to the east of England.

156s in the East Midlands,  North West and North East of England and even more extensively
in Scotland.

156s did briefly operate on the Cardiff-Portsmouth line I think in late 88-89 whilst the entire 155 (now 153s in our part of the world) fleet had to go away for repairs due to faulty doors.

Oh Im probably wrong its probably a 158 with a smudged '8' that looks like a 6! The type with slow doors that open outwards then sideways at the ends of the carriages.

Sounds like 153? Single carriage ?

No 3 carriages double door opening at the end, lots of them about that's why I thought they were 156's as I didn't think there were many 158's around.

GWR have 15 Class 158 DMUs. 13 are three-car units (12 hybrid - converted from 18 two-car units (1589xx), 1 as-built three-car unit (158798)). Plus a further 2 two-car units (158763, 158766).

GWR have no Class 156 units.

Cheers - 158s they are, mostly the hybrids I think with the power car in the middle but going back to my original post, these are a right pain when its busy, slow to board and very squashed in. I sometimes find space for standing (which I prefer with the foldup) on the end by the corridor connection, but it does depend.

I will see one or two later on probably!

The 3 Car 158s are all Power Cars formed, as earlier pointed out, by 2 Car 158s with a Car from other 2 Car 158s (after splitting) attached on the end   

All 158s are all motor coaches (engine under the floor) yes, but there is one FirstGWR 158 which has a non-driving vehicle (no cabs) in it. That's 158798 and is the one with the special Springboard livery at the moment, as seen here (not my pic) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/byjr/24043395413/). All other FirstGWR 3-car 158s have three cabs, 158798 only has two.

158798 is a "proper" 3 Coach unit.   The 150/9s have just been "knocked together" from 2 Car units..

Some of the summer additional West Country services have been formed by "pinching" an HST from the Cotswold Line resulting in gross over crowding of an Adelante or Turbo on the CL.

As a newbie just catching up with a few threads. Oldfield Park is my local station, and I would say 'squashed' is an understatement of the situation on these services, and on many of the morning peak services. Very occasionally, people haven't been able to board at all, especially at Keynsham.

I would be tempted to challenge the figures for those travelling, which I assume come from ticket sales from the stations. I know that many people who use Oldfield Park buy tickets from Bath, as they can't get them at Oldfield Park (queues often too long in the morning) and having a return to Bath Spa allows much greater choice of return services (when I have to queue on Temple Meads platform for up to 15 minutes to buy my ticket to get there, many others I hear are doing the same). So mys suspicion is that those figures are an underestimate of the growth in users. In the ten years I've lived here, it looks to me that usage has increased by far more.

Did I see that Keynsham and Oldfield Park may get ticket machines "soon"? (Which in railway terms could still be some way off).  Not before time, as it's unacceptable if people have to queue for 15 mins at Temple Meads to get a ticket.  I see the 200+ alighting on the 0758 arrival from the Severn Beach line on platform 1 most mornings and passengers sprint off the train, to get a better place in the queue for tickets.

Thank you for posting, froome, with your very valid update on the situation.

My colleague Timmer on the moderator team also uses Oldfield Park frequently, so he'll no doubt be able to add his own observations to this discussion: I'm not an expert on this one.  :P

I try to avoid having to use the peak hour services because it is impossible to ever get a seat on them, but occasionally I have to. Last Wednesday (Nov 9) I caught the 08.13 from Oldfield Park to Temple Meads. It was standing all the way down when it arrived, a lot of people got off (inc 20 schoolchildren from the carriage I boarded) but many more got on, and was standing nose to nose down every carriage. At Keynsham some got off and some managed to get on, but I counted at least 50 left on the platform unable to board.

The train was on time and 4 carriages, so I assume (and from what people were saying) this was actually a fairly normal situation, not something unusual for that service. If so, it is disgraceful.

Oldfield Park is also my local station, and I actually commute to Keynsham.

In terms of the actual service, I guess I am lucky because I tend to end up on the closer to shoulder peak services. However the services still tend to be very busy and especially in the evening peak it can be a massive squeeze to get on (despite the fact there are two services very closely timed leaving Keynsham, 17.56 and 18.11).

Regarding passenger numbers, in addition to them being misleading because of people buying tickets to / from Bath instead of Oldfield Park (something I often too myself actually), I wonder if the fact that there are no ticketing facilities at either station for the vast majority of the day also has an impact. For anyone unfamiliar with the stations, during the morning peak mon-fri there is usually (but not always) a member of staff selling tickets from an avantix machine. Outside of the morning peak, you have to buy either on the train or an interchange station / your destination. For journeys between Oldfield Park and Keynsham, it is quite common for no member of staff to make their way through the train as such there is no opportunity to pay. Indeed this is also the case for the few times when no staff are present during the morning peak. Added to that is that GWR tend to be fairly lax about the "buying before you board" rule with Keynsham and Oldfield park in the morning peak because the ticketing situation is so poor. So I do wonder if the official numbers are on the low side here!

Another squashed journey today, I caught the 13.26 from Oldfield Park to Temple Meads, so middle of a Sunday. It arrived with people nose to nose again all the way down each aisle. The 30 or so passengers waiting managed to just squash on (I was hard up against a door, which was slightly alarming).

However, the worst aspect as that when we got to Temple Meads, it was announced that two extra carriages would be added to the train before they opened the doors. This meant that about 300 standing people (it looked like at least 75 in my carriage and there were 3 or 4 carriages) were jolted quite hard, with many having nothing to hold onto where they were standing. I would have thought this broke a whole book of health and safety rules. Why don't they let people alight first in those instances?

I often travel from Bath Spa to Bristol and make a rule of always travelling on HSTs. Most people seem to alight from these at Bath leaving plenty of seats to choose from for the onward journey. Now that electrification issues have scuppered the Turbo cascade to the west for the foreseeable future the prospect for enjoying local journeys from the likes of Oldfield Park are probably blighted for years to come. Cheering thought isn't it..

The next few weeks are not going to be fun anyway thanks to the Bath xmas market.
And the issues from this weekend just gone won't help (I imagine at least a few people didn't bother travelling and will instead visit in the next couple of weekends).

Although saying that I did get the 13.50 from Oldfield Park to Bath Spa yesterday (to connect to a London service, I'm not usually that lazy!) and I was quite surprised how quiet it was. It was still standing room only but plenty of space, no where near as busy as I was expecting. Which is interesting considering froome's experience going the other direction just half hour earlier.

Following on from my Nov 12 posting above, I caught the 08.13 train again today. I tried to count the number of passengers waiting for it at Oldfield Park and reckon there were at least 150 boarding, possibly quite a few more as passengers were coming down the ramp as the train arrived. It was standing room only of course. There were also a lot trying to board at Keynsham, of which several couldn't get on (at least 10 outside my carriage and presumably similar for the other carriages).

Our local paper had an article last week about a passenger fainting on one of these severely overcrowded trains. I will post about that separately, in the Bristol Commuters section.

I must admit I found it funny when I was on the 16.49 out of Tm to Weymouth yesterday and there mutterings of 'is it always like this' I replied this isn't full. full is when you are squashed against the wall leaving a mark of your face on the window. Now there was the time a few months ago when GWR thought it might be funny to reduce 3 cars down to 1... Some of us sensibly decided to get the later train and we were all on platform 9 watching everyone trying to fit in the train on platform 7. Consequently they didn't all fit in

There is the potential for some small degree of respite come May when 2x3 car turbos start operating on the Severn Beach line. It would be good if GWR could tell us their plans for any strengthening of other services as a result of this, and how many of the coaches displaced will stay in the Bristol area.