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All across the Great Western territory => Looking forward - after Coronavirus to 2045 => Topic started by: grahame on May 23, 2016, 11:02:08



Title: More trains for TransPennine Express
Post by: grahame on May 23, 2016, 11:02:08
From First Group's News and Media section ....

http://www.firstgroupplc.com/news-and-media/latest-news/2016/23-05-16.aspx

Quote
TransPennine Express (TPE), the intercity rail operator for the North and Scotland is delighted to today announce the purchase of a further 126 brand new carriages.

TPE will deliver an investment of more than ^230m in 25 brand new five-carriage trains which will be in service across the network by 2019.


Title: Re: More trains for TransPennine Express
Post by: JayMac on May 23, 2016, 11:23:42
How much of the ^230 million comes from TPE, aka First Group?

These sort of announcements really annoy me. They give the impression to the general public that it is the train operator who is stumping up the money and making the investment in rolling stock.

Nonetheless, a welcome return to loco-hauled services across the Pennines. And a welcome further increase in capacity.


Title: Re: More trains for TransPennine Express
Post by: Ollie on May 23, 2016, 11:26:57
BNM: Release states: Today^s agreement will see the introduction of two new fleets, which are 12 five-carriage Civity UK InterCity electric trains financed by Eversholt Rail and 13 sets of five-car InterCity carriages financed by Beacon Rail Leasing.


Title: Re: More trains for TransPennine Express
Post by: grahame on May 23, 2016, 11:49:00
These sort of announcements really annoy me. They give the impression to the general public that it is the train operator who is stumping up the money and making the investment in rolling stock.

My error for selectively quoting - sorry ... see Ollie's further quote

I passed on this out-of-area news as it promises more stock for the pool, and for our current TOC (or its parent) to be the prime initial user.


Title: Re: More trains for TransPennine Express
Post by: ChrisB on May 23, 2016, 11:51:54
Quote
No UK manufacturer took part in the competitive tender process.

Bit of a shame, that.

I wonder whether these coaches will be known as Mark VI coaching stock?

BNM - how did you know to refer to them as loco-hauled if you hadn't read the press release?


Title: Re: More trains for TransPennine Express
Post by: JayMac on May 23, 2016, 12:15:54
BNM: Release states: Today^s agreement will see the introduction of two new fleets, which are 12 five-carriage Civity UK InterCity electric trains financed by Eversholt Rail and 13 sets of five-car InterCity carriages financed by Beacon Rail Leasing.

I did read the full press release before commenting. No blame to grahame for selectively quoting.

Release states:
Quote
TransPennine Express (TPE), the intercity rail operator for the North and Scotland is delighted to today announce the purchase of a further 126 brand new carriages.

TPE will deliver an investment of more than ^230m in 25 brand new five-carriage trains which will be in service across the network by 2019.


That is in the first two paragraphs.

TPE are neither purchasing the rolling stock, nor "delivering the investment" in it.

Not untypical of First Group of course. Headline grabbing opening parts of press releases suggesting First Group are making investments, contradicted later in same release.



Title: Re: More trains for TransPennine Express
Post by: Ollie on May 23, 2016, 12:39:23
I disagree, perhaps if it said, TPE is proud to announce it is purchasing... but that opening headline doesn't say TPE are making the purchase, and if there should be doubt as to who is funding the build, it is clarified within the actual context of the article.

Although naturally, First Group/TPE will be spending money on these trains as they will need to pay to use them.


Title: Re: More trains for TransPennine Express
Post by: JayMac on May 23, 2016, 12:58:25
I disagree

Thought you might.  ;D

"TPE... is delighted to today announce the purchase..." should have been immediately followed by ..."by Rolling Stock Companies (ROSCOs) Eversholt Rail and Beacon Rail Leasing." Not mentioned in passing a few paragraphs later.

The opening statement is then erroneously back up in the second paragraph with "TPE will deliver an investment of more than ^230m" They won't deliver anything of the sort.

These press releases (like GWR's investment in 'Building a Greater West') are worded like this deliberately. To con the public into thinking that it is the train operator buying the trains, electrifying the lines, improving the stations...

Here's how it should be done:

Quote
Beacon Rail Leasing ("Beacon"), a leading Pan-European rolling stock lessor, is pleased to announce that it has entered into an agreement to purchase 13 sets of five-car intercity carriages which will be leased to TransPennine Express Limited ("TPE"), a FirstGroup plc company. 

The carriages will be manufactured by Spanish manufacturer, Construcciones y Auxiliar de Ferrocarriles ("CAF") and are currently scheduled to be placed into service in 2018. Beacon's Class 68 diesel locomotives, which are leased to Direct Rail Services ("DRS"), will initially haul the carriages between Liverpool and Newcastle and will be sub-leased from DRS to TPE. 

Beacon owns a diverse portfolio of freight and passenger train rolling stock and leases these assets to operating companies in the UK and Continental Europe.  It owns and manages a modern fleet of 190 locomotives, 944 freight wagons and 20 passenger train units.  Beacon's customers include many of the top freight operators in the UK and leading locomotive and rolling stock operators throughout Europe and Scandinavia.

Commenting on the transaction, Ted Gaffney, Chief Executive Officer of Beacon, said: "Beacon is very pleased to provide a locomotive hauled coach solution to TransPennine Express.  This transaction is in line with our strategy, growth ambitions, and our commitment to providing state of the art rolling stock to the UK market." 

TPE's Managing Director, Leo Goodwin said: "This is great news for our customers and we are delighted to have concluded the deals that will bring much needed and much wanted extra carriages across our network.

"This will enable us to transform the customer experience over the life of our franchise and our three new train fleets will form a key part of this improvement."

"Whether travelling to work, for business or leisure, our services are going to offer more seats, improved connectivity and a higher standard of comfort. The on-board experience will be second to none and we will provide customers with a real alternative to the car and congested road network."

About Beacon Rail Leasing 

Beacon Rail Leasing is a rolling stock leasing company focused on serving the UK and continental European markets. Beacon Rail Leasing has an industry leading management team with rail asset management expertise and capital markets experience, enabling it to meet the equipment needs of its Pan European customer base. 

Earlier this month, Beacon signed a definitive agreement to acquire Ascendos Rail Leasing S.^ r.l. ("Ascendos"), a European locomotive and rolling stock leasing company which is headquartered in Luxembourg, and has additional offices in London and Munich. Ascendos' current portfolio includes 35 locomotives and 100 freight wagons on lease in Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany, 35 passenger train units on lease in Germany, and 67 double decker coaches on lease in Denmark.

Please visit http://www.beaconrail.com for more information. Beacon Rail is a portfolio company of Pamplona Capital Management, a London and New York based specialist investment manager established in 2005 that provides an alternative investment platform across private equity, fund of hedge funds and single manager hedge fund investments. Please visit http://www.pamplonafunds.com for more information.
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/beacon-rail-to-supply-rolling-stock-to-transpennine-express-limited-580487021.html


Title: Re: More trains for TransPennine Express
Post by: Ollie on May 23, 2016, 13:19:52
I disagree
Well, to be fair, I think it highly unlikely you'd agree with me that First Group are being disingenuous. You are employed by them after all.

This is purely me saying I disagree with your view on the release, nothing to do with who I work for. I've read it as someone who is somewhat interested in rail, not as someone who is a rail worker. My interpretation is different to yours, that is allowed as far as I know. No need to be concerning yourself with who I'm employed by.


Title: Re: More trains for TransPennine Express
Post by: JayMac on May 23, 2016, 14:33:41
What happens when you put out a disingenuous press release is this:

http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news/transpennine-express-buys-126-new-11372060
Quote
TransPennine Express buys 126 new carriages

TransPennine Express (TPE), which links Huddersfield with major cities including Leeds, Manchester, Liverpool and Hull, is spending ^230m on 25 brand new five-carriage trains which will be in service across the network by 2019.

Selective quoting on my part, but there's no mention of Eversholt or Beacon in that article for me to quote.

Of course, we can blame the journalists for poor research. I suspect though the journalist in question will blame the press release for not being clear on where the money is coming from. And I also suspect that TPE and First Group will be delighted that the Huddersfield Examiner have got it wrong. Nice publicity even if incorrect. I doubt very much the TPE press officer will be ringing up to clarify.

No mention of Eversholt or Beacon in this one either:

http://www.in-cumbria.com/New-125mph-trains-will-cut-journey-times-to-Manchester-and-Liverpool-bdb22e36-5ca0-4df8-bbfe-fd3f094f8772-ds
Quote
RAIL company TransPennineExpresss is investing ^230m in 25 new five-carriage trains to enter service during 2018 and 2019.

Falsehood will fly, as it were, on the wings of the wind, and carry its tales to every corner of the earth; whilst truth lags behind  ::)


Title: Re: More trains for TransPennine Express
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on May 23, 2016, 15:40:59
I honestly don't think it matters much.

The ownership structures and funding mechanisms of any large publicly listed company are sufficiently byzantine these days that even perfect clarity doesn't actually tell you much.

Yes, the Beacon Rail release is accurate, but all it ultimately tells you is that some new trains are being funded by "a portfolio company of Pamplona Capital Management". That's pretty much equivalent to me saying "the Melton Mowbray Building Society is pleased to announce a deal on a property in central Charlbury" because we borrowed the money for our house from them. Except even that's flattery - your average reader is at least likely to understand what the Melton Mowbray Building Society might be, whereas Pamplona Capital Management might as well be the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation for all except a few people in the City.

In this case, it's FirstGroup who are taking the risk by committing to the increased lease payments; and, I suspect, CAF have also taken a risk by bidding, shall we say, "competitlvely" to fill their order book. If First have overbid, they will be in trouble meeting their premium payments. If CAF have underpriced, they too will be in trouble. I'm pretty sure Pamplona Capital Management will do nicely whatever happens... and so I can't begrudge First taking the credit.

(I recommend the MMBS. The service is genuinely personal, the rates are good, and most important of all, you can pop in for a Dickinson & Morris pork pie when negotiating your mortgage. We celebrated ours with an absolutely delicious Stilton-topped one.)


Title: Re: More trains for TransPennine Express
Post by: jdw.wor on May 23, 2016, 18:01:59
I'm with BNM! I suspect it took longer to construct this press release, in a way that it is capable of being misunderstood, than Beacon took to compose their straightforward one. How far from a lie is it when people/organisations produce script which they know is very easy to misconstrue?


Title: Re: More trains for TransPennine Express
Post by: John R on May 23, 2016, 19:58:26
BNM I think you are being far too pedantic in an attempt to find criticism.  And if you want to be pedantic then I think your argument falls downs on both counts. 

As has been noted, the opening line does not state that TPE is purchasing the rolling stock.  Just announcing that the purchase is happening.  So no inaccuracy there. The second statement refers to delivery of an investment, not the making of an investment.  Parcelforce delivers a package to me, it doesn't make the contents. But it enables me to benefit from the contents, in the same way that TPE enables the public to benefit from the investment in new rolling stock. So delivery* is fine.

There is absolutely no doubt that TPE is the glue between many parties which has enabled this investment in rolling stock to take place. Instead of trying to find a reason to have a cheap jibe at them, I would have hoped that you would have welcomed this significant investment in the rail industry. From my perspective the best thing about this deal is the surprise and welcome return of hauled rolling stock, offering a flexibility and ability to scale up easily if passenger numbers exceed expectations that units don't have. 

* delivery  - to hand over  (Chambers English Dictionary):  thus TPE are handing over the investment, which seems reasonable.   


Title: Re: More trains for TransPennine Express
Post by: broadgage on May 23, 2016, 20:11:23
Loco hauled new trains ? I thought that these were considered old fashioned and unsuitable (or perhaps too good) for todays railway.
So why cant we have loco hauled coaches in the South West instead of being downgraded to DMUs.


Title: Re: More trains for TransPennine Express
Post by: grahame on May 23, 2016, 20:23:59
Loco hauled new trains ? I thought that these were considered old fashioned and unsuitable (or perhaps too good) for todays railway.

Whilst the Beacon press release does say "Hauled", I would suspect they might be pulled (hauled) in one direction and pushed in the other; they're said to be for use on Liverpool - Newcastle, and whilst Newcastle can be accessed from either end and not require a run around, the same cannot be said for Lime Street High Level.


Title: Re: More trains for TransPennine Express
Post by: broadgage on May 23, 2016, 20:38:41
Agree, almost certainly hauled in one direction and pushed in the other.
Still sounds better than a DMU though.

To obtain sufficient power, AND to facilitate driving from each end, perhaps some new design could be produced with a locomotive at each end. As the locomotives would only be coupled to the train one way round, they would need only a single cab, which could have a sloping front end to reduce air resistance.
In between could be 8 or more coaches, including perhaps a kitchen and buffet situated between first and standard class.
A loco each end would also provide "get you home redundancy" in case of mechanical failures.



Title: Re: More trains for TransPennine Express
Post by: Tim on May 23, 2016, 20:44:33
I honestly don't think it matters much.


I tend to agree.  First Group chose the trains and put together the financing package to fund it and will be servicing the debt.  It is not the ToCs' fault that they are thinly-capitalised spivs.  The government sets up the structure.  Of course it is ultimately more expensive.  If it wasn't First would voluntarily finance their buses with such an arrangement.  The fact that they don't and they just buy buses by negotiating a good price and opening their cheque book perhaps suggests that even First doesn't think that the railway set up makes sense.   


Title: Re: More trains for TransPennine Express
Post by: Timmer on May 23, 2016, 20:48:47
To obtain sufficient power, AND to facilitate driving from each end, perhaps some new design could be produced with a locomotive at each end. As the locomotives would only be coupled to the train one way round, they would need only a single cab, which could have a sloping front end to reduce air resistance.
In between could be 8 or more coaches, including perhaps a kitchen and buffet situated between first and standard class.
A loco each end would also provide "get you home redundancy" in case of mechanical failures.
Bit like an Intercity 125  ;)


Title: Re: More trains for TransPennine Express
Post by: grahame on May 23, 2016, 20:49:00
To obtain sufficient power, AND to facilitate driving from each end, perhaps some new design could be produced with a locomotive at each end. As the locomotives would only be coupled to the train one way round, they would need only a single cab, which could have a sloping front end to reduce air resistance.
In between could be 8 or more coaches, including perhaps a kitchen and buffet situated between first and standard class.
A loco each end would also provide "get you home redundancy" in case of mechanical failures.

That sounds really strange.  Better to go for some sort of tilting DMU.   I suppose if that didn't work, you could come up with a temporary stopgap along the lines you're suggesting.


Title: Re: More trains for TransPennine Express
Post by: broadgage on May 23, 2016, 21:02:52
Perhaps these proposed new trains could be called "broadgage double ended trains with restaurant" That sounds like a bit of a mouthful though, can anyone think up a shorter and more catchy name ?

It should even be possible to produce a hybrid version, with a diesel loco at one end and an electric at the other. That would of course slightly limit the performance on diesel, but that might be acceptable if the non electrified portions of the route had lower line speeds.
When the wires come down, the train could still proceed, or if the line be blocked then the diesel engine could provide ample hotel power for 12 hours or more.



Title: Re: More trains for TransPennine Express
Post by: stuving on May 23, 2016, 22:51:18
There's more detail in Railway Gazette (http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/traction-rolling-stock/single-view/view/transpennine-express-orders-emus-and-hauled-stock.html), including confirmation of push-pull operation for the "Mark V" stock:
Quote
The 13 sets of five-car hauled coaches will be financed by Beacon Rail Leasing, and will work in push-pull mode with Class 68 diesel locomotives owned by Beacon Rail which will be subleased from Direct Rail Services. TPE said ^most of the required Class 68 engines are already built and by buying state-of-the-art carriages to be pulled by these engines, much-needed additional capacity can be introduced quickly^.

The coaches will initially operate at up to 160 km/h, with the capability to run at 200 km/h as routes are electrified. They will enter service from spring 2018, initially operating between Liverpool and Newcastle. Later in 2018 some will begin running to and from Scarborough. Once TPE's Hitachi AT300 fleet arrives in December 2019, the coaches will then be transferred to routes from Liverpool and Manchester Airport to Middlesbrough and Scarborough.

It does look as if CAF won the order mainly on short delivery for these - and by implication that includes the remote control of the Class 68s from the far end; all done in under two years.


Title: Re: More trains for TransPennine Express
Post by: JayMac on May 24, 2016, 04:07:11
BNM I think you are being far too pedantic in an attempt to find criticism.  And if you want to be pedantic then I think your argument falls downs on both counts. 

As has been noted, the opening line does not state that TPE is purchasing the rolling stock.  Just announcing that the purchase is happening.  So no inaccuracy there. The second statement refers to delivery of an investment, not the making of an investment.  Parcelforce delivers a package to me, it doesn't make the contents. But it enables me to benefit from the contents, in the same way that TPE enables the public to benefit from the investment in new rolling stock. So delivery* is fine.

There is absolutely no doubt that TPE is the glue between many parties which has enabled this investment in rolling stock to take place. Instead of trying to find a reason to have a cheap jibe at them, I would have hoped that you would have welcomed this significant investment in the rail industry. From my perspective the best thing about this deal is the surprise and welcome return of hauled rolling stock, offering a flexibility and ability to scale up easily if passenger numbers exceed expectations that units don't have. 

* delivery  - to hand over  (Chambers English Dictionary):  thus TPE are handing over the investment, which seems reasonable.   


And I think it is a cheap jibe to call me pedantic on this point.  ::)

I've made it quite clear why I think TPE/First Group are being disingenuous. Deliberately done to make themselves look good. There are over half a dozen news stories that follow from the press release that all say that TPE is spending ^230million. Even the BBC fail to mention who's money is being spent.

Rail franchising and financing is a complex business. I believe there is a duty to the public to provide accurate information on who is spending what.

And, if you'd bothered to read my first post on the matter you'll see I did indeed welcome the the introduction of loco hauled services and the increase in capacity. But no, the cheap jibe about pedantry instead.  ::)


Title: Re: More trains for TransPennine Express
Post by: John R on May 24, 2016, 07:53:51
Seems you're quite keen to dole out the criticism but less so to receive it. I'll leave others to decide whether it was a cheap jibe or a robust response to your criticism of First Group.


Title: Re: More trains for TransPennine Express
Post by: ellendune on May 24, 2016, 07:59:13
So who is investing the money?

First TPE have entered into a leasing agreement with two leasing companies.  That commits them to making leasing payments for the duration of the contract.

Beacon Rail Leasing have placed an order with CAF as have Eversholt Rail.

But Beacon Rail have obtained finance from Pamplona Capital Management

Where have Pamplona Capital Management obtained the finance from?  Banks are not typically financing these sorts of deals these days, so somewhere behind it all there is likely to be a syndicate of investors who are the real people who have put up the money, though it is conceivable Pamplona Capital Management is that syndicate.  The syndicate investors may indeed be a pension fund who's assets are really those of hundreds or thousands of individuals.  

In this context who are the investors? - Impossible to say!

Who cause the investment to happen though.  Neither Beacon Rail nor Eversholt Rail would have done it on their own and the fact that they shared it suggests they wanted to spread the risk.  

The single player who caused this to happen was First TPE.  So how should they describe what they did?  

The department of large infrastructure companies that make things like this happen are often called Capital Delivery Departments, because that is what they do. They do not provide the money, just manage it.  So delivering an investment of this nature is what First TPE is doing.  

Note: You could not use the same description for Electrification because to my mind Network Rail is undertaking Capital Delivery there.  




Title: Re: More trains for TransPennine Express
Post by: Rhydgaled on May 24, 2016, 08:53:32
How does the in-service date for the new TPE stock compare to the new sleeper stock for ScotRail?

To obtain sufficient power, AND to facilitate driving from each end, perhaps some new design could be produced with a locomotive at each end. As the locomotives would only be coupled to the train one way round, they would need only a single cab, which could have a sloping front end to reduce air resistance. In between could be 8 or more coaches, including perhaps a kitchen and buffet situated between first and standard class.
A loco each end would also provide "get you home redundancy" in case of mechanical failures.
We already have those. Unfortunately, FirstGroup decided to replace them with DMUs for reasons unknown, but rumored to be at least partly due to the fact the desision was made before ScotRail came up with a way of reducing the cost of fitting them with modern power-doors compliant with future accessibility regulations.

To obtain sufficient power, AND to facilitate driving from each end, perhaps some new design could be produced with a locomotive at each end. As the locomotives would only be coupled to the train one way round, they would need only a single cab, which could have a sloping front end to reduce air resistance.
In between could be 8 or more coaches, including perhaps a kitchen and buffet situated between first and standard class.
A loco each end would also provide "get you home redundancy" in case of mechanical failures.
That sounds really strange.  Better to go for some sort of tilting DMU.   I suppose if that didn't work, you could come up with a temporary stopgap along the lines you're suggesting.
No, better to go for some sort of EMU (or something like an IC225), with IC125s as a temporary stop-gap. If you are refering to the Advanced Passenger Train, the prototype was an EMU and the experimental one before that was gas-turbine-powered. Were there ever plans for a diesel APT?


Title: Re: More trains for TransPennine Express
Post by: ChrisB on May 24, 2016, 09:24:54
Assuming only one 68 per set, they'll either need DVTs or a coach in each set with remote driving capabilities at the non-68 end. Can't see any detail of that anywhere?


Title: Re: More trains for TransPennine Express
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 24, 2016, 09:30:53
I wonder whether these coaches will be known as Mark VI coaching stock?

I quess it will depend on how closely the design matches the sleeper stock being built as Mark V's.  If they share the same bodyshell and bogie design (my guess is that they will) they'll probably also be described as Mark V's rather than Mark VI's.

To obtain sufficient power, AND to facilitate driving from each end, perhaps some new design could be produced with a locomotive at each end. As the locomotives would only be coupled to the train one way round, they would need only a single cab, which could have a sloping front end to reduce air resistance. In between could be 8 or more coaches, including perhaps a kitchen and buffet situated between first and standard class.
A loco each end would also provide "get you home redundancy" in case of mechanical failures.

We already have those. Unfortunately, FirstGroup decided to replace them with DMUs for reasons unknown, but rumored to be at least partly due to the fact the desision was made before ScotRail came up with a way of reducing the cost of fitting them with modern power-doors compliant with future accessibility regulations.

Great to see such a large number of new trains being introduced on the TPE routes.

I think the decision to run short formation loco-hauled sets on TPE is based on three things.  Firstly the carriages are cheap and quick to construct, secondly the limited supply of locomotives needed are already built, and thirdly their eventual use on the Liverpool/Manchester to Middlesbrough/Scarborough route suits short formation loco-hauled trains reasonably well.  The Class 68s acceleration is pretty good at low speed with five carriages (though not as good as a modern DMU) and the linespeeds will rarely be hindered by their top speed of 99mph.

Those three reasons don't apply to the Paddington to Penzance route though.  Firstly there would be more locomotives needed which would need to be of a new 125mph design which would add considerably to the cost as you would not just need the coaches.  Secondly there would need to be at least eight, more likely nine coaches, so having a diesel engine at both ends rather than several throughout the train would hamper acceleration considerably and not deliver the journey time reductions the new trains will be able to.  Thirdly, slow accelerating diesel trains would also make pathing more difficult on what will be an extremely busy railway between Reading and Paddington when the new GMWL and Crossrail services are introduced.

Continued use of the HST's and Mark III's would just be a stop-gap measure and we'd need to look again in 10-15 years.  They are already 35-40 years old and Scotrail will use them far less intensely and therefore will get more life out of them on shorter formations at less than 100mph than if they continued to hammer up and down at 125mph as 2+8 sets.


Title: Re: More trains for TransPennine Express
Post by: ChrisB on May 24, 2016, 09:38:37
I wonder whether these coaches will be known as Mark VI coaching stock?

I quess it will depend on how closely the design matches the sleeper stock being built as Mark V's.  If they share the same bodyshell and bogie design (my guess is that they will) they'll probably also be described as Mark V's rather than Mark VI's.

One of the technical mags report that they're being built to a current design of Mark Vs.


Title: Re: More trains for TransPennine Express
Post by: stuving on May 24, 2016, 09:42:17
Assuming only one 68 per set, they'll either need DVTs or a coach in each set with remote driving capabilities at the non-68 end. Can't see any detail of that anywhere?

That's what I was getting at in referring to the remote control of the 68s - it does need a DVT cab end for their carriage; designed, tested and built in under two years. That does sound a bit of a challenge.


Title: Re: More trains for TransPennine Express
Post by: ChrisB on May 24, 2016, 09:43:15
Unless there are DVTs lying around? Chiltern obviously found some.


Title: Re: More trains for TransPennine Express
Post by: JayMac on May 24, 2016, 09:45:01
Seems you're quite keen to dole out the criticism but less so to receive it. I'll leave others to decide whether it was a cheap jibe or a robust response to your criticism of First Group.

I'm quite happy to see my point of view countered. Less enamoured to see it done with personal attacks accusing me of pedantry and of making cheap jibes.

A perfect counter point was made by Rhygalad. Free of any personal dig.

The money trail is Byzantine. And it could be said that ultimately First Group/TPE are paying for the new rolling stock through the lease payments. But they are only doing so for 7 years which is in no way an investment. Lease fees are a cost to the business. Those 7 years of lease fees won't come close to covering the purchase price of the stock. Stock that will have a 'life' of over 30 years.

Further news outlets today continue to trot out that TPE have spent ^230 million. Yes, the media can be lazy, but they are not helped by being fed misleading press releases.


Title: Re: More trains for TransPennine Express
Post by: ChrisB on May 24, 2016, 09:47:48
Seems you're quite keen to dole out the criticism but less so to receive it. I'll leave others to decide whether it was a cheap jibe or a robust response to your criticism of First Group.

I'm quite happy to see my point of view countered. Less enamoured to see it done with personal attacks accusing me of pedantry and of making cheap jibes.

Hand on heart - you don't then?


Title: Re: More trains for TransPennine Express
Post by: Chris125 on June 07, 2016, 11:29:35
That's what I was getting at in referring to the remote control of the 68s - it does need a DVT cab end for their carriage; designed, tested and built in under two years. That does sound a bit of a challenge.

It seems they will initially be operated top and tailed by 68s, with the driving-end vehicles delivered last and presumably following a period of testing and driver training.



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