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Title: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: Chris from Nailsea on August 09, 2016, 23:34:25 From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-37024919):
Quote Train window death man Simon Brown 'was a railway fanatic' A man killed when he apparently leaned from a train window and was hit on the head was a life-long railway fanatic who worked in the rail industry. Simon Brown, from East Grinstead, West Sussex, died while travelling on the Gatwick Express in London on Sunday. The 24-year-old first volunteered on the Bluebell Railway aged nine and was working as an engineering technician with Hitachi Rail Europe in Bristol. Friend Reuben Smith said: "Railways were his life." British Transport Police believe Mr Brown may have been leaning out of a train door window when he suffered a blow to the head. Other passengers said he was looking out of the window when he was hit. The incident happened at Wandsworth Common station at about 17:30 BST on Sunday, as the train was travelling to London Victoria from Gatwick Airport. It has been reported to the Rail Accident Investigation Branch. Mr Smith, a railway conductor who had known Mr Brown since the age of 12, has launched a fundraising page to help cover the costs of his friend's funeral. Writing on the page, Mr Smith said: "Simon was a great friend of ours and a real light in the railway world. He was always smiling, cheerful and would bend over backwards to help anyone. There's now a massive hole in our close-knit community where he was. He has been taken from us at the age of 24 - it's far too young. Please donate. I want to help ease the burden of the cost of the funeral for his parents." A transport police spokesman said: "The death is being treated as non-suspicious and the circumstances, including what caused the head injuries, are still being investigated." Mr Brown's family have been informed of his death and a file is being prepared for the coroner. A Gatwick Express spokesman said: "The emergency services attended the scene at Wandsworth Common station and, despite their best efforts, they were unable to save him. We send our condolences to his family. We are co-operating fully with British Transport Police and the Rail Accident Investigation Branch, who are investigating this incident." Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: Ralph Ayres on August 10, 2016, 09:18:52 If he had as much railway experience as is being reported he would have been very aware of the risks involved in leaning out of a train window. I would question the police assessment that his death was not suspicious.
Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: ChrisB on August 10, 2016, 09:38:36 I wouldn't necessarily - GatEx windows don't open, do they? Not even the door windows normally - so he presumably used some railway equipment (hex key or similar?) to open it.
Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: chrisr_75 on August 10, 2016, 10:06:15 If he had as much railway experience as is being reported he would have been very aware of the risks involved in leaning out of a train window. I would question the police assessment that his death was not suspicious. I had a similar thought myself that he perhaps ought to have known better, but then we all make mistakes from time to time, sometimes the results are severe, other times we get away with it with a fright and learn from the experience or perhaps not even notice we stuffed up. The Police presumably have full possession of sufficient information (probably including some pretty graphic on-train CCTV footage) to have made this call, and will also have to satisfy the coroner that there are no suspicious circumstances, so I would be curious to know what qualifies you to challenge their view on this. Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: ChrisB on August 10, 2016, 10:16:44 It has been reported that he was keen to know why the GatEx train was crawling/being delayed, so opened the window to look out at the signals. Over-keen fanatic forgetting his training?
Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: Oxonhutch on August 10, 2016, 10:27:17 Unless he was hit by something seriously out of gauge, he would have to have leaned out a far way. I seem to recall that an open carriage door (of the slam-door variety) should not foul a passing train or structure. An open carriage door on each train would be a different matter. That said, an electric train can approach almost silently - especially from behind.
Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: paul7575 on August 10, 2016, 11:00:31 I wouldn't necessarily - GatEx windows don't open, do they? Not even the door windows normally - so he presumably used some railway equipment (hex key or similar?) to open it. The normal passenger doors on the 442 need a key, but one of the guard's doors in the centre car, on the passageway side, is openable for dispatch purposes. The other side is within the guards compartment. Paul Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: paul7575 on August 10, 2016, 13:26:05 Unless he was hit by something seriously out of gauge, he would have to have leaned out a far way. I seem to recall that an open carriage door (of the slam-door variety) should not foul a passing train or structure. An open carriage door on each train would be a different matter. That said, an electric train can approach almost silently - especially from behind. Just found a link to this in another forum, seems that clearances nowadays can be much, much less: Quote Firstly, there is no such thing as a minimum clearance, except that it should be positive. Clearances may be described as 'Normal', 'Reduced' or 'Special Reduced', but this is simply to categorise the control regime that must be applied in order to preserve safe clearance. When GC/RT5212 was published (1983), it drew a distinction between clearances, tolerances, allowances and unknowns – clearance became the additional space requirement for unknowns once the other factors had been taken into account, and accordingly reduced considerably from previous values. This was done through the introduction of a concept known as 'effective track position'. Once all 'knowns' are considered, clearances of greater than 100mm are considered normal, greater than 50mm are considered reduced and greater than 0mm are considered 'special reduced'. Page 50 of: http://www.rssb.co.uk/Library/groups-and-committees/2013-guide-vehicle-structure-sic-guide-to-british-gauging-t926.pdf Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: stuving on August 10, 2016, 20:03:06 Just found a link to this in another forum, seems that clearances nowadays can be much, much less: I think that gives a misleading impression. Most of the railway runs past and through fixed objects in exactly the same places they were 50 years ago, so at those points tracks are in the same positions and the trains must be much the same size too. Gauging is a notoriously tricky subject, but AIUI the change in gauging procedures was mainly one of methodology and terminology. If you look in GC/RT5212, as well as those "normal" clearance values it also says: Quote G1 Minimum upper sector clearances for new infrastructure G1.1 Requirement for normal clearances New infrastructure (as defined in section B3) shall be designed to provide at least normal clearances (as defined in section C2) to all types of rolling stock that use the route or can reasonably be foreseen to use the route. The required clearances shall be calculated in accordance with Part D of this document. G1.2 Additional clearances at vehicle window level The following clearances shall be provided at the level of opening vehicle windows (normally between 2000 mm and 3000 mm above the plane of the rails): a) 450 mm where vehicles operate with opening windows allowing passengers to lean out b) 250 mm where vehicles operate with opening windows for the use of train crew. GM/RT2456 requires passenger door windows that are capable of being opened (drop lights) to be locked so that they can only be opened manually by train crew. This requirement is to be implemented by 31 December 2005 for all vehicles that are intended to remain in passenger use after 31 December 2007. In other words, these days trains with windows that open are the exception, and will only be able to run where these extra clearances are provided. However, one of the main post-war changes in vehicle designs has been softer (air) suspensions, which sway more and so have to be narrower (2.82 m for Mk I vs 2.62 m for Mk 3). There is other information too. A while ago I was looking for a value for the spacing between platforms, and found this in GE/GN8573 "Guidance on Gauging": Quote 10.2.2.12 The accepted distance between track centres in Britain is 3400 mm for straight track. That was given as a commentary on the High-Speed Infrastructure TSI, which says: Quote The minimum nominal distance between track centres on upgraded lines in Great Britain shall be 3165 mm. Using the standard nominal platform offset of 730 mm, you can work out that the width of an imaginary platform between tracks at those spacings is .505 or 270 mm - not enough for an open door. The difference between those two may be largely due to windows not now opening. So if there never was enough clearance for an open door, there must have been quite a few occasions where one struck something and was ripped off, and quite likely went on to damage something else. So why do I not recall ever hearing about one, nor any consequent accident? Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: TonyK on August 10, 2016, 20:28:44 This is a very sad turn of events, and a salutary reminder to take no chances with the railways.
I shall offer my normal view that accidents do not have a single cause. This unfortunate chap, if the events are as reported and he decided to lean out of a window, chose to disregard not only the usual signs above windows but also his safety training, both at the Bluebell Line and Hitachi. Had he done so at almost any other point along the line, it would have been of no consequence, but it was at a point where either infrastructure or another train was unusually close. Doubtless, the RAIB will investigate and report on what happened, and maybe lessons will be learned - time will tell. My thoughts are with his family and girlfriend, who must wonder more than most how someone with such an extensive knowledge and experience of railways could come to grief in such a way. Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: Surrey 455 on August 10, 2016, 21:11:24 From Metro newspaper http://metro.co.uk/2016/08/09/man-who-died-on-gatwick-express-tagged-in-picture-hanging-out-of-train-window-6057418/
Quote The man who was killed while hanging out of the window of a Gatwick Express train was tagged in a Facebook post which shows he’d done it before. Simon Brown, described as a life-long railway fanatic by friends, died while travelling on the Gatwick Express at Wandsworth Common station in south London on Sunday. (https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/ad_215318972.jpg?quality=80&strip=all&strip=all) An image on his Facebook page shows the fatal accident wasn’t the first time he risked his life by hanging out of train windows. The above picture, taken in 2011, shows Brown with his upper body dangling out of a fast-moving train, a 37255 on the Great Central Railway. Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: chrisr_75 on August 10, 2016, 21:41:31 Oh, one of those ::)
Assuming metros journalistic skills can be trusted of course Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: patch38 on August 10, 2016, 22:45:55 Assuming metros journalistic skills can be trusted of course I'd imagine in this case - given the circumstances and the potential insensitivity - it would have gone to the lawyers and the duty editor before getting to print. Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: chrisr_75 on August 11, 2016, 00:51:25 Assuming metros journalistic skills can be trusted of course I'd imagine in this case - given the circumstances and the potential insensitivity - it would have gone to the lawyers and the duty editor before getting to print. In which case my comment stands! I cannot abide these people who think it is acceptable behaviour to hang as far out of a carriage window as is physically possible and shout the place down (I believe there is oft abuse of innocent passers by) in pursuit of 'thrash' or 'clag' and disturbing a train full of people who want to peacefully enjoy a rail tour or heritage line. I guess it's inevitable that a few will meet their end doing this sort of thing. Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: TaplowGreen on August 11, 2016, 08:32:28 .............a Darwin award nomination beckons............but RIP and condolences to nearest and dearest nonetheless.
Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: PhilWakely on August 11, 2016, 08:59:23 One Saturday recently, I was walking along the seawall between Dawlish and Dawlish Warren when I was passed by the "Daytime Sleeper" aka "VegEx Spotters' Special" on its Up working to Exeter. I was shocked by the number of heads leaning far out of the door windows with video cameras or camera phones - some facing backwards, so unaware of what would be passing on the other line.
Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: TonyK on August 11, 2016, 22:14:18 I recall the same on the West Somerset Railway some years back. Whether it was an organised thing, I couldn't say, but every vestibule window seemed to have someone hanging out of it, some wearing safety goggles. Now, that's a slow, quiet, mainly single track line, but it still struck me as foolish, as well as a little anti-social. It could be that doing such things on a heritage line lulls one into a false sense of security elsewhere. I can't recall a similar incident, but how many near misses could there have been that didn't make the papers?
Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: chrisr_75 on August 12, 2016, 00:02:13 I recall an incident very similar to this one many years ago involving someone's head and the town walls of Conwy where the railway passes through (either in the class 37 or 33 era of the Holyhead to Crewe/Cardiff services) - needless to say the wall won, but someone added the word 'ouch' to the wall shortly after in red paint, I can only assume it was a track worker with a slightly dark sense of humour...
In the dying days of class 37 haulage in north wales, prior to the 175's entering service, they were a right pain in the ass hanging out of any available window (both doors and compartment windows), blocking up the vestibules and generally making a bit of a nuisance of themselves. I've seen a lot of negative comments about this sort of behaviour on rail tours (which these days seem to generally be of the more civilised silver service meal + steam loco type rather than the 'class xx's on an unusual route' sort of thing) with quite some competitive carry on to bag the 'best' windows. Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: TaplowGreen on August 12, 2016, 08:19:01 In the dying days of class 37 haulage in north wales, prior to the 175's entering service, they were a right pain in the ass hanging out of any available window (both doors and compartment windows), blocking up the vestibules and generally making a bit of a nuisance of themselves. I've seen a lot of negative comments about this sort of behaviour on rail tours (which these days seem to generally be of the more civilised silver service meal + steam loco type rather than the 'class xx's on an unusual route' sort of thing) with quite some competitive carry on to bag the 'best' windows. ...........the "best" windows? What were they expecting? A better view of the Hanging gardens of Babylon? Wildebeest sweeping majestically across the plain? ::) Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: TonyK on August 12, 2016, 10:44:34 ...........the "best" windows? What were they expecting? A better view of the Hanging gardens of Babylon? Wildebeest sweeping majestically across the plain? ::) Sydney Opera House? Quote ...but someone added the word 'ouch' to the wall shortly after in red paint... At the point where the car of an inebriated George Michael damaged the wall of a shop, some wag wrote "Wham!" Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: rower40 on August 12, 2016, 13:51:50 At least twice when on an HST on the Newquay branch, I've heard the Train Manager advise passengers of the limited clearances and lineside vegetation to be found beyond the window, and that anyone opening the drop-lights for purposes other than ventilation will be dealt with severely.
Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: chrisr_75 on August 12, 2016, 14:55:32 In the dying days of class 37 haulage in north wales, prior to the 175's entering service, they were a right pain in the ass hanging out of any available window (both doors and compartment windows), blocking up the vestibules and generally making a bit of a nuisance of themselves. I've seen a lot of negative comments about this sort of behaviour on rail tours (which these days seem to generally be of the more civilised silver service meal + steam loco type rather than the 'class xx's on an unusual route' sort of thing) with quite some competitive carry on to bag the 'best' windows. ...........the "best" windows? What were they expecting? A better view of the Hanging gardens of Babylon? Wildebeest sweeping majestically across the plain? ::) I think certain veteran diesel locomotives are the 'basher' equivalent of the wildebeest of Torquay, the best windows offer the most favourable experience of 'thrash' and 'clag', oft resulting in gleeful cries of 'hellfire' and 'my lords'... ::) ::) Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: TaplowGreen on August 12, 2016, 16:08:29 In the dying days of class 37 haulage in north wales, prior to the 175's entering service, they were a right pain in the ass hanging out of any available window (both doors and compartment windows), blocking up the vestibules and generally making a bit of a nuisance of themselves. I've seen a lot of negative comments about this sort of behaviour on rail tours (which these days seem to generally be of the more civilised silver service meal + steam loco type rather than the 'class xx's on an unusual route' sort of thing) with quite some competitive carry on to bag the 'best' windows. ...........the "best" windows? What were they expecting? A better view of the Hanging gardens of Babylon? Wildebeest sweeping majestically across the plain? ::) I think certain veteran diesel locomotives are the 'basher' equivalent of the wildebeest of Torquay, the best windows offer the most favourable experience of 'thrash' and 'clag', oft resulting in gleeful cries of 'hellfire' and 'my lords'... ::) ::) Ah I see............I thought such people only existed in caricature! :D Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: Chris from Nailsea on August 31, 2016, 12:15:36 From the Rail Accident Investigation Branch (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/fatal-accident-balham) (RAIB):
Quote Investigation into a fatal accident to a passenger near Balham, South London, 7 August 2016. (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/image_data/file/55771/s300_Balham.jpg) The site of the accident, showing the direction of travel of the train (image courtesy of Network Rail Infrastructure Limited) At around 17:25 on Sunday 7 August 2016, a passenger travelling on a train from Gatwick Airport to London Victoria struck his head on a signal gantry near Balham. The train was travelling at about 60 mph (96 km/h) and he sustained fatal injuries. The train was the 17:05 Gatwick Express service, formed of a five-coach class 442 electric multiple unit. Witness evidence indicates that the passenger was standing at a door in the third coach on the side facing away from the other railway tracks. This door, which is intended for the use of the train’s guard and opens inwards, has an opening droplight. There is a notice above the window “Do not lean out of window when train is moving”. The signal gantry involved in the accident is about 700 metres south of Balham station, and spans all four lines. After the accident, RAIB measured the distance between the train, standing on the up fast line, and the post of the signal gantry. We found that, at the height of the middle of the droplight, this distance was around 260 mm (10.25 inches). Our investigation will include examination of: - The factors which affected the clearance between the train and the signal gantry - The measures in place to control the risks from leaning out of train windows Our investigation is independent of any investigation by the railway industry, the British Transport Police or by the industry’s regulator, the Office of Rail and Road. We will publish our findings, including any recommendations to improve safety, at the conclusion of our investigation. This report will be available on our website. Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: TaplowGreen on August 31, 2016, 14:04:40 .........another one to add to an already lengthy list.......
http://darwinawards.com/darwin/ Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: SandTEngineer on August 31, 2016, 17:41:56 Hang on a minute though......that signal gantry leg is seriously foul of the structure gauge. I do not condone people hanging their heads out of train windows but that is why the standard structure gauge is what it is.
Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: LiskeardRich on August 31, 2016, 17:56:35 Hang on a minute though......that signal gantry leg is seriously foul of the structure gauge. I do not condone people hanging their heads out of train windows but that is why the standard structure gauge is what it is. I'm maybe misunderstanding but it seems to comply with the 1983 regs previously quoted, but not the "new infrastructure" gauge? Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: grahame on August 31, 2016, 18:19:44 From the Rail Accident Investigation Branch (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/fatal-accident-balham) (RAIB): Quote After the accident, RAIB measured the distance between the train, standing on the up fast line, and the post of the signal gantry. We found that, at the height of the middle of the droplight, this distance was around 260 mm (10.25 inches). That's a lot less than I would guessed for an obstacle clearance. Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: Oxonhutch on August 31, 2016, 19:13:21 I can see the unions getting involved in this. It could have been one of their members - after all the droplight is for the guard's use. A blow to the head doesn't need to be 60 mph to kill you. I reckon 10 mph could be sufficient in the wrong circumstances - just checking up on some late running or other foreseeable circumstances.
On the London Underground the clearence is probably five inches but there no-one can poke their head out. I sense a serious industry failing. Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: SandTEngineer on August 31, 2016, 19:43:16 The structure gauge at the time of installation of the signal structure (mid-1980s) can be found here:
http://85a.co.uk/forum/gallery/2/original/2_040252_350000001.gif Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: Electric train on August 31, 2016, 20:46:12 It is entirely possible that there has been a track slew or change of cant since the original structure installation; which might even been compounded several time over the 30 years. Over the last 20 years there has been a lot of pressure to hand back track in time with no over runs so it is feasible the first thing to be skipped would be a full gauging check
Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: chrisr_75 on September 01, 2016, 01:07:35 Hang on a minute though......that signal gantry leg is seriously foul of the structure gauge. I do not condone people hanging their heads out of train windows but that is why the standard structure gauge is what it is. Nevertheless to quote the RAIB report "There is a notice above the window “Do not lean out of window when train is moving”", so I suspect the rail industry has covered it's arse with that. Same as no trespassing signs or level crossing signals not stopping people getting mown down by trains, with the rail industry rarely held accountable for such fatalities - I don't think they should carry any blame here either. This guy knew the score better than most, so should've taken a bit more responsibility for his own safety. Basic common sense failure of you ask me. Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: grahame on September 01, 2016, 08:59:44 I'm reminded reading back about this incident that things are not always what they initially seem. Two historic issues (the motorway pileup at Taunton and a level crossing incident at Moreton-on-Lugg) started off looking as if they were the almost exclusive fault of the deceased, but turned out to be quite otherwise. In this current case, the initial RAIB statement indicates a surprise factor ... my goodness - 10 inches is a smaller clearance that I would have guessed). The balance of what mistakes were made is far from clear, and we on the forum posting in public should be mindful of this, and mindful too that the friends and family of Simon Brown may read what we write.
Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: onthecushions on September 01, 2016, 14:49:23 So a savvy enthusiast could expect 28" clearance when in fact it was 10.25". Because of which we shall have every droplight in the country nailed up. Sub Judice - No Comment OTC Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: LiskeardRich on September 01, 2016, 15:59:42 And then when they are nailed up we will all be imprisoned on HSTs
Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: grahame on September 01, 2016, 18:03:04 And then when they are nailed up we will all be imprisoned on HSTs Oh come now - I can remember a very long time ago the Ffestiniog locking people in their carriages from outside, and then letting them out at destination by walking along and unlocking. Can't say I felt comfortable with it. So there is a precedent! Now that HSTs have central door locking, is there any reason that internal handles can't be fitted? Even without central door locking southern suburban units like the 4EPBs had internal handles ... Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: stuving on September 01, 2016, 20:44:12 The Railway Group Standard I quoted before, GC/RT5212, was recently withdrawn. There is a complete new set of standards on gauging, as well as two new passenger gauges (PG1 and PG2). Their introduction is covered in RSSB Briefing note 15 BN21:
Quote 3 Compliance requirements GE/RT8073, GE/RT8273, GI/RT7073 and GM/RT2173 come into force and are to be complied with from 05 March 2016 except for the lower sector gauge requirements set out in GM/RT2173 Clause 2.2.4.2 which have a delayed compliance date of 04 December 2021 to align with the LOC & PAS TSI. After the compliance dates, or the date by which compliance is achieved if earlier, compliance with the requirements set out in GE/RT8073, GE/RT8273, GI/RT7073 and GM/RT2173 are to be maintained. Where it is considered not reasonably practicable to comply with the requirements, permission to comply with a specified alternative should be sought in accordance with the Railway Group Standards Code. There are no exceptions to the general compliance date specified. However, the bit I quoted is still there in the replacement, GI/RT7073: Quote 2.2.3 Additional clearances at vehicle window level for new infrastructure 2.2.3.1 The following clearances shall be provided at the level of opening vehicle windows between 2000 mm and 3000 mm above the plane of the rails: a) 450 mm where passenger vehicles operate with opening windows allowing passengers to lean out. b) 250 mm where vehicles operate with opening windows for the use of train crew. GE/GN8573 "Guidance on Gauging and Platform Stepping Distances" is not new, but has been revised and now says: Quote G 4.3.7 GI/RT7073 sets out a requirement for additional clearances at window level for new infrastructure. This requirement is maintained to recognise that there is still a significant number of different types of rolling stock operating with opening windows allowing passengers to lean out, but also opening windows in cabs are provided for train crew to look out of the train. Rolling stock with opening windows allowing passengers to lean out include Mk 3 coaches and heritage coaches, typically Mk 2 and Mk 1 coaches. The majority, if not all, of cabs have opening windows for train crew use. Of course that also applies to clearances to be maintained in existing infrastructure.Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: trainer on September 01, 2016, 20:49:23 I can remember a very long time ago the Ffestiniog locking people in their carriages from outside, and then letting them out at destination by walking along and unlocking. They still do on their older carriages where there are outward swinging doors, precisely because of the lack of clearance in many places. It is truly narrow gauge and not just the distance between the rails. Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: stuving on September 01, 2016, 20:51:42 There was another point in that earlier post, a quote from GC/RT2456, and that in full says:
Quote C3.9 Passenger door windows that are capable of being opened (drop lights) shall be locked and the passenger door shall be fitted with an interior door handle that is interlocked with the primary door lock such that it is prevented from being released other than when passengers are intended to board or alight the vehicle. Such passenger door windows shall be fitted with a manually operated mechanism that will permit train crew only to open the drop light That section was introduced in issue 2 in 2002, with this implementation requirement: Quote Compliance with paragraph C3.9 is required by 31 December 2005 for all applicable vehicles that are intended to remain in passenger use after 31 December 2007. All of the requirements of this document are within the scope of Vehicle Acceptance Body approval. After the compliance date, or after the date by which compliance is achieved (if earlier), Railway Group members shall not deviate from the requirements set out in this document. Where it is considered not practicable, or not reasonably practicable, to comply with the requirements set out in this document; authorisation not to comply shall be sought in accordance with GA/RT6001, GA/RT6004 or GA/RT6006. Did that happen? Even for these Class 442s and HSTs? If it had, this would be a staff-only window and a 10" clearance is then appropriate. Even is some people provide themselves with a railway key to open one, they are then clearly doing something that defeats the railways' efforts to protect them (and is probably against the by-laws). GC/RT2456 was a mandatory standard, but it too has now been withdrawn. According to the briefing note (10 BN38) its requirements are now in GM/RT2100, but I can't find this one there - or anywhere else. No doubt the RAIB will enlighten us in due course. Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: PhilWakely on September 01, 2016, 21:26:26 Going off at a slight tangent, but all this talk of loading gauges and locking doors reminds me of a trip I made a couple of years ago on the eastbound California Zephyr from Grand Junction CO to Denver CO.
Those of you who know your railway geography will know that the route of the Zephyr takes you through the Moffat Tunnel at the continental divide in the Colorado Rockies. As we approached the tunnel, there was an announcement over the PA requesting that we close all windows, vacate the door vestibules and return to our seats. Apparently the tunnel clearance is such that you could stand upright just inside the door, hold your arm outstetched and rest the palm of your hand against the tunnel wall and the length of the tunnel combined with the clearance and lack of ventilation shafts would not be pleasant on the lungs. Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: stuving on May 25, 2017, 18:30:39 From the Rail Accident Investigation Branch reports (https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/fatal-accident-balham):
Quote Fatal accident involving a train passenger near Balham, on 7 August 2016. At about 17:24 hrs on Sunday 7 August 2016 a passenger, travelling on a Gatwick Express service from Gatwick Airport to London Victoria, suffered fatal injuries as a result of having his head out of a window and striking it on a signal gantry near Balham in south London. The train was travelling at about 61 mph (98 km/h) at the time of the accident. The window concerned was on a door opposite a guard’s compartment in the train; this door was accessible to passengers but it was not intended for passenger use. The RAIB has found no evidence to explain why the passenger put his head out of the window at that time. The accident occurred because the passenger’s head was out of the window, there was nothing to prevent passengers from opening the window or putting their head out of the opened window, and because there was less than the normal standard clearance between the train and the signal gantry. Although the clearance was compliant with standards for existing structures, it was less than an industry recommended minimum for new structures where there are trains with opening passenger windows. An underlying cause was that the process for assessing the compatibility of this train on this route did not identify the risk of the combination of reduced structure clearances and opening windows. The RAIB has made two recommendations and identified one learning point. One recommendation is addressed to Network Rail, and seeks to improve the industry’s management of the interacting risks between infrastructure and rolling stock. The second recommendation is addressed to relevant train operators with the intention of reducing the risk from people leaning out of opening train windows. The learning point reinforces the need for regular monitoring and management of structure clearances when those clearances are reduced from normal. R092017_170525_Balham (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/59245646ed915d20f80000a9/R092017_170525_Balham.pdf) There is, in this case, quite a lot more to it than was apparent at the time. Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: John R on May 25, 2017, 20:50:52 There's an interesting observation in the report related to the number and relative sizes of the warning notices on the window in question. Looking at the window of an HST droplight this evening I noted that:-
1. the warning not to look out of the window is by far the smallest 2. several times bigger is the notice to close the window to save energy - not safety related 3. there's a large notice telling people to check that the door is adjacent to a platform before trying to open it, and not to lean on the door The relative sizes of 1 and 2 appear wrong. As for 3, the only time when this could now be a safety issue is if the TM has incorrectly opened using SDO (unless the driver has overshot slightly). So again, the need for the notice and its relative size since SDO was introduced (over 10 years ago) seems doubtful. Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: LiskeardRich on May 25, 2017, 21:52:47 Quote The RAIB has found no evidence to explain why the passenger put his head out of the window at that time. Because unfortunately that's what the enthusiasts seem to do. Just look for the so-called veg-ex going along dawlish on Saturday and I could put a safe bet most of the sea side has people with heads out the window. I took a Saturday HST to Newquay last year and a chap got struck by a branch in the face. Fortunately no more than a lesson learnt. Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: Red Squirrel on May 25, 2017, 22:14:32 Reading this thread, I note that some people have set out to blame the victim. That's not how we improve safety.
Psychologist Steven Pinker quotes a warning message that used to appear on portable generators and space heaters sold in the USA: Quote Mild exposure to CO can result in accumulated damage over time. Extreme exposure to CO may rapidly be fatal without producing significant warning symptoms. According to Pinker, several hundred Americans every year turned their homes into gas chambers after failing to appreciate the meaning of this. The warning was then changed to: Quote Using a generator indoors CAN KILL YOU IN MINUTES This has proved more effective. Perhaps it would be better if the warning sign by an openable window said something more like: Quote If you lean out of this window you may strike lineside equipment which could kill you. Equipment may be much closer than you think. Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: ChrisB on May 25, 2017, 22:53:21 Unfortunately, no notice will deter those that think they know better
Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: JayMac on May 25, 2017, 23:25:55 Improved notices certainly will.
Fortunately, on the national network at least, we are not far from having nearly all passenger rolling stock free from windows one can lean out of. Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: TaplowGreen on May 26, 2017, 07:19:51 Reading this thread, I note that some people have set out to blame the victim. That's not how we improve safety. Psychologist Steven Pinker quotes a warning message that used to appear on portable generators and space heaters sold in the USA: Quote Mild exposure to CO can result in accumulated damage over time. Extreme exposure to CO may rapidly be fatal without producing significant warning symptoms. According to Pinker, several hundred Americans every year turned their homes into gas chambers after failing to appreciate the meaning of this. The warning was then changed to: Quote Using a generator indoors CAN KILL YOU IN MINUTES This has proved more effective. Perhaps it would be better if the warning sign by an openable window said something more like: Quote If you lean out of this window you may strike lineside equipment which could kill you. Equipment may be much closer than you think. Is "commonsense" no longer a consideration these days? I think most people would appreciate the danger inherent in blindly sticking one's head out of the window of a moving vehicle without the need for detailed signage pointing it out? Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: Western Pathfinder on May 26, 2017, 07:39:27 Sadly Commonsense is becoming uncommon these days .
Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: ellendune on May 26, 2017, 07:55:04 I am not sure it was ever that common
Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: Red Squirrel on May 26, 2017, 09:21:27 That's as may be. My point is that a well-worded warning is more likely to deter dangerous behaviour than a blunt unexplained order.
On older stock, the sign actually read "Caution - Do not lean out of the window". The word 'Caution' could be taken to mean that you will probably get away with it if you are careful; it does little to imply that very solid objects may whizz by as little as 230mm from the window... Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: Bmblbzzz on May 26, 2017, 09:37:09 The thrill of feeling a fast airstream on your face is a common one, probably a basic human reaction. Kids like to open car windows on the motorway for this reason, adults like to drive convertibles with the top down. Not just humans – dogs in cars are the obvious examples, I've also read of farmyard geese which learned to deflate tyres by pecking at the valves; probably they were feeling a similar thrill. So it's quite likely common to all warm-blooded vertebrates. Regardless of the biology, we know that people like it. Add in the geekiness of train enthusiasts who are trying to take photos of their own train, etc etc, and the knowledge that there "should" be enough clearance, and it's no wonder people do this. Say it's only 230mm clearance and suddenly it doesn't sound so much. A big DANGER sign might be ignored by those enthusiasts, cos they "know", as do those who remember doing so in the past – unless they've been informed it's as little as 23cm – might be better.
Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: ChrisB on May 26, 2017, 09:52:26 Iron bars across the windows to prevent heads etc being stuck out seemed to work when windows were generally openable.
However, this was openable as presumably the guard needed to do same at stations for operational reasons, otherwise surely that window would have been like the others on that train, sealed? Thus, maybe lockable windows that the guard opens wuth a key if the openable requirement still exists? Signs are no use whatsoever to the know-it-all enthusiast that ignores such warnings. Sealing windows would be the obly way to beat these people Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: LiskeardRich on May 26, 2017, 16:29:47 Iron bars across the windows to prevent heads etc being stuck out seemed to work when windows were generally openable. However, this was openable as presumably the guard needed to do same at stations for operational reasons, otherwise surely that window would have been like the others on that train, sealed? Thus, maybe lockable windows that the guard opens wuth a key if the openable requirement still exists? Signs are no use whatsoever to the know-it-all enthusiast that ignores such warnings. Sealing windows would be the obly way to beat these people How do you propose opening the doors on HSTs if all the windows are locked within a reasonable dwell time? Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: Western Pathfinder on May 26, 2017, 17:32:21 This perhaps !!..
https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLC39A3192EA728442¶ms=EAEYATgBSAFYA2ILdFFzbG5tY0hPZU1oAQ%253D%253D&v=Jwm1xkExlG4&mode=NORMAL Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: ChrisB on May 27, 2017, 13:16:44 How do you propose opening the doors on HSTs if all the windows are locked within a reasonable dwell time? Eh? I wwas referring to this incident, which wasn't an HST. If you want to widen the thread, please say so. Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: LiskeardRich on May 27, 2017, 13:19:57 How do you propose opening the doors on HSTs if all the windows are locked within a reasonable dwell time? Eh? I wwas referring to this incident, which wasn't an HST. If you want to widen the thread, please say so. The previous posts were referring to opening windows in general. Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: TonyK on May 27, 2017, 20:45:04 How do you propose opening the doors on HSTs if all the windows are locked within a reasonable dwell time? Eh? I wwas referring to this incident, which wasn't an HST. If you want to widen the thread, please say so. The previous posts were referring to opening windows in general. Speed isn't really a consideration in this sad case, as the outcome may have been the same no matter what type of train was involved, so long as it had windows that can be opened. A collision at 30 mph could well have been as fatal as one at 100 mph. Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: grahame on July 16, 2019, 12:05:57 From The Standard (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/rail-firm-faces-1m-fine-over-passenger-killed-as-he-leaned-out-of-train-a4190761.html)
Quote One of London’s biggest train firms is facing a hefty fine over the death of a passenger who suffered catastrophic injuries when he put his head out of an unlocked carriage window. Railway enthusiast Simon Brown, 24, was struck on the head by a signal gantry when he leaned out of the Gatwick Express train as it approached Wandsworth Common station. An inquest into his death found Mr Brown had put his head out of a publicly accessible “droplight” window. Rail investigators said there was a sticker on the door warning passengers against leaning out, but it was “cluttered” with other signs. At Southwark crown court yesterday, Govia Thameslink Railway — which runs the service — pleaded guilty to a health and safety breach over Mr Brown’s death on August 7, 2016. Patrick Verwer, who was appointed chief executive last year, sat in court as the company admitted the breach. Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: Bob_Blakey on July 16, 2019, 20:14:48 I am very disappointed that the TOC are not fighting this; it seems that no modicum of common sense and/or personal responsibility is now required when going about our daily activities.
Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: TonyK on July 16, 2019, 20:40:49 I am very disappointed that the TOC are not fighting this; it seems that no modicum of common sense and/or personal responsibility is now required when going about our daily activities. The TOC is not fighting this, I reckon, because their legal department, solicitors, and a counsel's opinion have all told them that in the circumstances of the case, there is a strong likelihood of conviction, with much greater cost in financial terms. We have the benefit of some newspaper reports and a degree of speculation, largely outside of this forum. They have the file on the whole massive investigation, and therefore know a lot more than we do. Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: TaplowGreen on July 17, 2019, 06:55:03 I am very disappointed that the TOC are not fighting this; it seems that no modicum of common sense and/or personal responsibility is now required when going about our daily activities. Hear Hear. Absolutely nails it 👍 Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: TonyK on July 17, 2019, 09:23:11 Hear Hear. Absolutely nails it 👍 That's what they should do to the windows. There is a duty of care to the fool as well as to the wise man. Trains can be used by people whose mental capacity is such that they cannot properly understand a common sign, as well as people who should know the risks but still take them, and TOCs have a duty of care to them also. One of the recommendations made by the RAIB after a similar incident was: Quote The intent of this recommendation is to reduce the risk of injury at open (RAIB report 09/2017 para 116(2)) (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/615660/R092017_170525_Balham.pdf)train windows. Operators of trains which include rolling stock with droplight windows should assess the risk arising from reduced clearance outside those windows and implement any reasonably practicable measures to mitigate it. The review should be informed by obtaining from Network Rail the data referred to in recommendation 1, and include consideration of means of preventing people from leaning out of windows and/or improving warning signage. These measures should address the risks to both passengers and staff. The report included a photograph of a class 442 droplight window with bars fitted over the droplight window, suggesting that at least one TOC had identified a fairly simple and cheap solution before the accident that was the subject of that report. That to me looks like an example of "any reasonably practicable measures to mitigate" as described in the recommendation. If I were the defendant's solicitor in this instance, I would ask what the TOC had done to implement the RAIB recommendation - which did, in fairness, give "and / or improving signage" as an option. If the answer was either "Launched an in-depth study, with a focus group and task group of our own experts to examine ways to implement this over a reasonable period" or "Nothing", which is the short way of saying the same thing, I would advise them to put their hands up, and throw themselves upon the mercy of the court. [/speculation] Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: Phantom on July 17, 2019, 12:52:38 From The Standard (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/rail-firm-faces-1m-fine-over-passenger-killed-as-he-leaned-out-of-train-a4190761.html) Quote One of London’s biggest train firms is facing a hefty fine over the death of a passenger who suffered catastrophic injuries when he put his head out of an unlocked carriage window. Railway enthusiast Simon Brown, 24, was struck on the head by a signal gantry when he leaned out of the Gatwick Express train as it approached Wandsworth Common station. An inquest into his death found Mr Brown had put his head out of a publicly accessible “droplight” window. Rail investigators said there was a sticker on the door warning passengers against leaning out, but it was “cluttered” with other signs. At Southwark crown court yesterday, Govia Thameslink Railway — which runs the service — pleaded guilty to a health and safety breach over Mr Brown’s death on August 7, 2016. Patrick Verwer, who was appointed chief executive last year, sat in court as the company admitted the breach. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-49016151 £1 million fine, can only assume GWR will be looking at something similar in the future for incident between Bristol and Bath last year Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: grahame on July 17, 2019, 13:59:59 £1 million fine, can only assume GWR will be looking at something similar in the future for incident between Bristol and Bath last year For sure, all parties to that fatality between Bath and Bristol will be taking a look at the case and seeing what parallels there are. But it would be dangerous to make assumptions about similarities, let alone about them leading to a similar outcome. Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: ChrisB on July 17, 2019, 14:42:30 For instance, the positioning of warning labels over HST windows was a lot clearer than on Gatwick Expres, for example
Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: TonyK on July 17, 2019, 17:43:52 £1 million fine, can only assume GWR will be looking at something similar in the future for incident between Bristol and Bath last year For sure, all parties to that fatality between Bath and Bristol will be taking a look at the case and seeing what parallels there are. But it would be dangerous to make assumptions about similarities, let alone about them leading to a similar outcome. A difference is that GWR were operating trains that had to be opened from outside, with a delay to the introduction of the replacements being outside of their control, and so far as I can recall, the instruction to not lean out of the window was very clearly displayed in HSTs. The Govia case does certainly have possible ramifications for any TOC who operates trains with openable windows, though. Time alone will tell. The idea of having windows that anyone can open on any vehicle capable of travelling at 60mph, let alone 125mph, seems more and more antiquated as time goes by. The HSTs had to have electrically operated door locks fitted from 1993, following a number of falls from moving trains - it seems ridiculous to think of trains without locking doors of one sort or another these days. The railway is by no means the only place where improvements in safety follow on from accident investigations or coroners' inquests, but it has long been at the forefront of advances, both in technology and in law. Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: TaplowGreen on July 17, 2019, 18:37:57 £1 million fine, can only assume GWR will be looking at something similar in the future for incident between Bristol and Bath last year For sure, all parties to that fatality between Bath and Bristol will be taking a look at the case and seeing what parallels there are. But it would be dangerous to make assumptions about similarities, let alone about them leading to a similar outcome. A big difference is that GWR were operating trains that had to be opened from outside, with a delay to the introduction of the replacements being outside of their control. Time alone will tell. The idea of having windows that anyone can open on any vehicle capable of travelling at 60mph, let alone 125mph, seems more and more antiquated as time goes by. The HSTs had to have electrically operated door locks fitted from 1993, following a number of falls from moving trains - it seems ridiculous to think of trains without locking doors of one sort or another these days. The railway is by no means the only place where improvements in safety follow on from accident investigations or coroners' inquests, but it has long been at the forefront of advances, both in technology and in law. I appreciate that it's an unfashionable concept these days, but does anyone actually take responsibility for their own actions any more? (Actions, after all, always have consequences, especially when reckless). Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: TonyK on July 17, 2019, 20:45:29 I appreciate that it's an unfashionable concept these days, but does anyone actually take responsibility for their own actions any more? (Actions, after all, always have consequences, especially when reckless). Short answer is yes. Long answer, yes, and they have to take responsibility for their failure to act as well, which can also have consequences. The railway owes a duty of care to the traveller in civil law, but in any claim for damages, the court may decide that the claimant contributed to the outcome by dint of their own negligence, and reduce damages by the percentage deemed to be their fault. This current case, however, is a criminal matter, brought against the company because of a breach of the oft-derided health and safety law. Judge Jeffrey Pegden, who heard the case noted, according to Metro (https://metro.co.uk/2019/07/17/rail-firm-fined-1000000-passenger-died-putting-head-window-10383756/), that the droplight window was for the use of conductors, but that: Quote ...the train had no conductor and there was no one there to monitor the use of the window at the time of the incident and that safety signs were ‘confusing’. He told Southwark Crown Court: ‘So there was no one on the incident train from the defendant company to use or maintain the use of the droplight window in question. Simon Brown appears to have put his head through the droplight window of the train where it was struck by track side gantry. Tragically he died as a result of the injuries he sustained and all that could be done was done to save him.’ The article went on to say: Quote Judge Pegden said no risk assessment was carried out that might have identified the droplight window risk and called it ‘tragic corporate blindspot’. Govia Thameslink Railway Ltd admitted one count of failing to ensure that persons not in their employment were not exposed to risk to their health and safety. Earlier James Maxwell-Scott, representing Govia Thameslink, said the firm took the charge very seriously, and that is why they pleaded guilty to it at the earliest opportunity. The court heard that following Mr Brown’s death, GTR took steps to ‘minimise risk’ by putting hazard tape across on the droplight windows of its 14 Class 442 trains. It's an old story. Something that has come about by change, possibly gradually, has been overlooked. Govia could have been had up for this without an accident sparking the investigation had someone from a health and safety authority seen the window in question earlier. The was a risk there all the time that the window wasn't protected in one way or another. As to who is at fault, clearly nobody should lean out of a moving train, and a railway enthusiast who was seemingly a volunteer on a preserved railway should have known this more than most. But as has been noted above, if a window opens, someone will lean out of it, no matter how little sense it makes, and TOCs are fully aware of this. The TOC has not been accused of corporate manslaughter, which would surely have been the case had it been found that the accident was solely down to their actions or omissions. They have been convicted on the basis that they facilitated the incident, however unintentionally. Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: TaplowGreen on July 18, 2019, 07:28:12 A good explanation.
I guess it's just a shame we can't legislate effectively against stupidity! Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: Bmblbzzz on July 18, 2019, 09:30:32 Taking responsibility applies to all. Those who lean out of windows or open doors on moving vehicles need to take responsibility for their actions. Those who make it possible for idiots, the uninformed, small children, etc to do so, also need to take responsibility for their act of making it possible.
Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: TonyK on July 18, 2019, 09:34:47 Taking responsibility applies to all. Those who lean out of windows or open doors on moving vehicles need to take responsibility for their actions. Those who make it possible for idiots, the uninformed, small children, etc to do so, also need to take responsibility for their act of making it possible. Which is almost certainly why Govia pleaded guilty at the first opportunity. Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: Surrey 455 on July 18, 2019, 22:29:38 Am I correct in thinking that these former Gatwick Express trains have just re-entered service with SWR? I think they transferred from SWT to Gatwick Express some years ago.
Anyway there was a delay in the re-introduction. I heard there were problems with the doors that needed rectifying. Have SWR done something to stop people poking their heads out of the windows? Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: TaplowGreen on July 19, 2019, 06:04:26 Taking responsibility applies to all. Those who lean out of windows or open doors on moving vehicles need to take responsibility for their actions. Those who make it possible for idiots, the uninformed, small children, etc to do so, also need to take responsibility for their act of making it possible. …..some of these may keep the lawyers busy too! https://darwinawards.com/ Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: SandTEngineer on August 04, 2019, 19:05:28 Travelled on the Paignton and Dartmouth Railway yesterday (03/08/2019) and the following brand new notices have been applied above every carriage window:
(http://cbrailways.co.uk/PhotoAlbumsPro/Album_pvq3ex/P1040554_1.jpg) Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: bobm on August 04, 2019, 20:09:31 Interestingly the one thing it doesn’t say is “Check your part of the train is adjacent to the platform”.
How far do you need to go to cover for all eventualities? Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: SandTEngineer on August 04, 2019, 20:25:40 Interestingly the one thing it doesn’t say is “Check your part of the train is adjacent to the platform”. How far do you need to go to cover for all eventualities? Its always a balancing act. If you make too complex (too many different messages in one go) or lengthy, people won't bother reading it. Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: TaplowGreen on August 04, 2019, 20:40:20 Interestingly the one thing it doesn’t say is “Check your part of the train is adjacent to the platform”. How far do you need to go to cover for all eventualities? Its always a balancing act. If you make too complex (too many different messages in one go) or lengthy, people won't bother reading it. Its certainly a balancing act if theres no platform to step onto. Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: SandTEngineer on August 04, 2019, 20:48:48 Interestingly the one thing it doesn’t say is “Check your part of the train is adjacent to the platform”. How far do you need to go to cover for all eventualities? Its always a balancing act. If you make too complex (too many different messages in one go) or lengthy, people won't bother reading it. Its certainly a balancing act if theres no platform to step onto. I was trying to be serious about a very serious issue that involved a persons death....... Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: bobm on August 04, 2019, 21:41:23 My point was that’s a message which was included on HST signage.
Title: Re: Simon Brown, rail enthusiast, died on Gatwick Express train, 7 Aug 2016 Post by: SandTEngineer on August 04, 2019, 22:54:49 Bob, appologies. I wasn't referring to your part of the quote. You are correct of course, but the message needs to be direct and use as few a words as possible. In safety posters that I have been involved in producing in the past the key words were always put in larger text or a stand out colour, as the CAUTION word is.
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