Great Western Coffee Shop

Journey by Journey => Plymouth and Cornwall => Topic started by: LiskeardRich on September 05, 2016, 12:06:49 pm



Title: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: LiskeardRich on September 05, 2016, 12:06:49 pm
BBC Radio Cornwall this lunchtime will be discussing this.

From their Facebook:

Quote
Have you felt the benefits of all the millions of EU cash Cornwall and Scilly has had over recent years? 57% of people who voted in June's referendum wanted to LEAVE. Now Cornwall council's warning key EU funded infrastructure projects still in the pipeline are at risk. Rail signalling upgrades, flood schemes and superfast broadband are among those highlighted in a council report being discussed today. The Government has only promised to take over EU-funded projects signed off before November. Laurence is back in the lunchtime phone in chair from midday. Please start the conversation.


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: grahame on September 05, 2016, 12:32:26 pm
BBC Radio Cornwall this lunchtime will be discussing this.

From their Facebook:

Quote
Have you felt the benefits of all the millions of EU cash Cornwall and Scilly has had over recent years? 57% of people who voted in June's referendum wanted to LEAVE. Now Cornwall council's warning key EU funded infrastructure projects still in the pipeline are at risk. Rail signalling upgrades, flood schemes and superfast broadband are among those highlighted in a council report being discussed today. The Government has only promised to take over EU-funded projects signed off before November. Laurence is back in the lunchtime phone in chair from midday. Please start the conversation.

There's a logic in the suggestion.  AIUI, the leave camp suggested that money not going to the EU and coming back as investments could instead be spent on the NHS and similar, so one of the aspects of the leave vote is a desire for spend to - in effect - be moved from these infrastructure projects to health.   Of course, the referendum was a very blunt tool with a single question offering two packages labelled "yes" and "no", so it's hard to know how many votes were swung by the expectation of a change in spend policy, and how many by other factors ... there wasn't a 'pick and choose'.


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: LiskeardRich on September 06, 2016, 12:16:21 am
And of course those going on about diverting the EU spend that was indirectly paying for this infrastructure had no mandate.

So the big question is will Cornwall get its signalling upgrade after all the years of promise?


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on September 06, 2016, 06:59:45 am
There are pressures to reduce the CP6 renewals funded by HMG, this irrespective of what Brexit turns out to be.  The all the reports like the Shaw Report into NR and railway funding said the funding needs to be generated more locally, the DfT and Treasury will be looking for Local Authorities etc to seek funds, Brexit will mean that one source the EU will dry up whether UK Central Government will enhance what they intended to do pre Brexit is yet to be seen


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: a-driver on September 06, 2016, 07:16:54 am
We've heard that the signalling upgrade will now not be happening but a number of new signals will be installed in Cornwall, I've forgotten the exact locations and number, but enough to break up the longer signalling sections to enable more services to run.


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: John R on September 06, 2016, 07:24:40 am
We've heard that the signalling upgrade will now now be happening but a number of new signals will be installed in Cornwall, I've forgotten the exact locations and number, but enough to break up the longer signalling sections to enable more services to run.

Maybe they could re-use a few of the ones they've just taken down at Banbury.    ;D


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on September 06, 2016, 08:54:43 am
Do you want to correct your typo? I'm not sure it says what you mean?

We've heard that the signalling upgrade will now now be happening


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Tim on September 06, 2016, 09:29:29 am
We've heard that the signalling upgrade will now now be happening but a number of new signals will be installed in Cornwall, I've forgotten the exact locations and number, but enough to break up the longer signalling sections to enable more services to run.

Surely that is a win win situation.  more services can still run but less money is spent


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on September 06, 2016, 11:35:09 am
We've heard that the signalling upgrade will now now be happening but a number of new signals will be installed in Cornwall, I've forgotten the exact locations and number, but enough to break up the longer signalling sections to enable more services to run.
Surely that is a win win situation.  more services can still run but less money is spent
Agreed.  The existing signalling in Devon and Cornwall could carry on for ever if its looked after properly with little more than a minor renewals budget.  Signals could be (and probably would have been under BR by now) converted to all colourlight and points converted from mechanical to power operation but controlled from the existing signalbox lever frames (Penzance is a good example of this). The biggest maintenance and reliabilty issues are the mechanical signal wire runs and mechanical point rodding both of which both need a lot of tender loving care by skilled and experienced technicians that could be eliminated by power operation (the wires and rods that is, not the technicians ::) ).  The signalbox lever frames are in excellent condition despite the fact some are now over 100 years old.

I understand that new intermediate signal sections will be installed, that would have been added under the resignalling (at Menheniot, Bodmin Parkway, Chacewater, Redruth and Gwinear Road).

Not sure yet about the status of Plymouth Panel but it wil shortly be 56 years old and has pleanty of life left in it yet.

There was never any financial case that 'washed its face' for renewing the signalling in Devon and Cornwall, and probably never will be, so it will probably turn out that NR just tried to push it through its business planning process in a vain attempt to meet its long term plan to have all 'Western' signalling operated by the Western ROC at Didcot.

Its probably best to wait now anyway until ERTMS and ETCS come along and slash the costs of renewals (well in theory, anyway :P ).  Oh hang on a minute, we won't be part of the EC soon........ :o


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Tim on September 06, 2016, 03:50:41 pm
Thanks.  Always good to have my ill-informed ideas confirmed by an expert.

Regarding the new intermediate signalling sections to be added, will they be installed in the existing lever frame and linked to the existing mechanical interlocking ? (presumably using some of the spare positions or perhaps even putting back what was rationalised out.)

Getting political for a moment, it strikes me that the whole concept of "EU money" is/was not a receipt for wise spending decisions.  The millions of pounds EU money spent on fancy bus-stops in Bath by a Council who not irrationally regards EU money as free money is another example


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on September 06, 2016, 04:16:11 pm
My contact at the Banbury North box said some of the frame there was headed down that way - whether to NR or restoration project, he did not say


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on September 06, 2016, 07:02:12 pm
Regarding the new intermediate signalling sections to be added, will they be installed in the existing lever frame and linked to the existing mechanical interlocking ? (presumably using some of the spare positions or perhaps even putting back what was rationalised out.)

The existing Intermediate Block Signals (IBS) between Lostwithiel and Par are controlled by switches on the instrument blockshelf in the existing signalboxes.  The IBS on the Down Line at Truro is controlled by lever No.45 in the lever frame.  I much expect (although cannot confirm at this stage) that the new IBS signals will also be controlled by blockshelf switches with electrical interlocking as that is the easiest way to do it (mind you this is Network Rail we are talking about of course).


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on October 05, 2016, 10:36:52 am
I have now seen a copy of the Signalling Scheme Plan(s) and can confirm that the additional intermediate signals are going to be installed and controlled from the existing signalboxes.  In addition a number of foot and farm crossings are going to be converted to MSL (Miniature Stop Lights) type.  So it looks as though the committment to the half hourly service is going ahead as planned :D


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Andy on October 10, 2016, 04:39:33 pm
We've heard that the signalling upgrade will now now be happening but a number of new signals will be installed in Cornwall, I've forgotten the exact locations and number, but enough to break up the longer signalling sections to enable more services to run.
Surely that is a win win situation.  more services can still run but less money is spent
Agreed.  The existing signalling in Devon and Cornwall could carry on for ever if its looked after properly with little more than a minor renewals budget.  Signals could be (and probably would have been under BR by now) converted to all colourlight and points converted from mechanical to power operation but controlled from the existing signalbox lever frames (Penzance is a good example of this). The biggest maintenance and reliabilty issues are the mechanical signal wire runs and mechanical point rodding both of which both need a lot of tender loving care by skilled and experienced technicians that could be eliminated by power operation (the wires and rods that is, not the technicians ::) ).  The signalbox lever frames are in excellent condition despite the fact some are now over 100 years old.

I understand that new intermediate signal sections will be installed, that would have been added under the resignalling (at Menheniot, Bodmin Parkway, Chacewater, Redruth and Gwinear Road).

Not sure yet about the status of Plymouth Panel but it wil shortly be 56 years old and has pleanty of life left in it yet.

There was never any financial case that 'washed its face' for renewing the signalling in Devon and Cornwall, and probably never will be, so it will probably turn out that NR just tried to push it through its business planning process in a vain attempt to meet its long term plan to have all 'Western' signalling operated by the Western ROC at Didcot.

Its probably best to wait now anyway until ERTMS and ETCS come along and slash the costs of renewals (well in theory, anyway :P ).  Oh hang on a minute, we won't be part of the EC soon........ :o

I'm glad to read that this is still edging forward in spite of Brexit-related upheavals. It's nice (in a sentimental way) to see Gwinear Road and Chacewater, amongst others, returning as signal sections. However, does anyone know what remaining sidings are heading for the chop? Is Lostwithiel down yard (and the bay & a potential run around) going the way of St Erth? Is any further reduction planned at Truro or Penzance?   


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: LiskeardRich on October 10, 2016, 05:08:37 pm
Andy, recent conversation with a penzance based employee of GWR they had made plans to use one of the sidings that hadn't been used for a long time at Penzance but the points were stuck when they were planning ahead. The sidings near to the depot are being removed in preparation for depot expansion.

Truro sidings are regularly used so I would expect them to remain in situ.

Lostwithiel bay platform is rarely used - its too short for most of the freight workings to use, so they are normally held in the sidings on the Bodmin end, which are heavily used, both to hold the freight waiting to enter the branch, and as passing for passenger workings to pass the slow freight trains.


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on October 10, 2016, 07:50:16 pm
Its probably best to wait now anyway until ERTMS and ETCS come along and slash the costs of renewals (well in theory, anyway :P ).  Oh hang on a minute, we won't be part of the EC soon........ :o

I doubt the UK leaving the EU will mean NR walking away from ERTMS / ETCS principles or indeed TSI's


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Noggin on October 10, 2016, 11:02:53 pm
Its probably best to wait now anyway until ERTMS and ETCS come along and slash the costs of renewals (well in theory, anyway :P ).  Oh hang on a minute, we won't be part of the EC soon........ :o

I doubt the UK leaving the EU will mean NR walking away from ERTMS / ETCS principles or indeed TSI's

Indeed, they are just effectively industry standards which make it far cheaper to procure kit, and greatly increases the odds that it will all work nicely. Witness the GWML electrification - knitting and trains to TSI's, seemed like almost as soon as installation was complete the IET's were running along at the best part of 140mph with little or no tweaking to either, 387's equally seem to have come in with minimal fuss. 


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on October 11, 2016, 08:38:50 am
My tounge in cheek comment was referring to the costs. Personally, I think the EU exit will result in the technology becoming unaffordable even if it is an industry standard, so it will only be applied to certain primary lines and other lines will use 'cheaper' conventional (modular) lineside signalling.


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Tim on October 11, 2016, 01:31:50 pm
Its probably best to wait now anyway until ERTMS and ETCS come along and slash the costs of renewals (well in theory, anyway :P ).  Oh hang on a minute, we won't be part of the EC soon........ :o

I doubt the UK leaving the EU will mean NR walking away from ERTMS / ETCS principles or indeed TSI's

ETCS has been installed in China, India, Turkey, Israel, Libya, Belarus, New Zealand,  Kazakhstan, Korea, Mexico, Saudi Arabia, Switzerland and Australia.

The only difference to the UK in leaving the EU is that installing ETCS will be completely our decision rather than currently where it is compulsory in some circumstances. 

I think this is a positive change because it gives NR the freedom to install it only where benefits outweigh the costs.  The justification for ETCS for its own sake was always weaker for GB as we only have one connection to the rest of Europe's railway and gauging issues limit the usefulness of that.   


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: old original on October 11, 2016, 06:32:34 pm
Personally speaking, seeing the everyday failures further East using a more modern system, I'd rather keep what we have down here


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ZoŽ on October 15, 2016, 03:27:40 am
Chacewater, Redruth
Considering there is already an IBS on the down main at Baldhu, will the section become TCB or is there going to be an arrangement similar to that over Druimuachdar where there is more than one IBS between the boxes?


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: bignosemac on October 15, 2016, 10:15:40 am
I know TCB - Track Circuit Block - but what is IBS?


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: LiskeardRich on October 15, 2016, 10:36:05 am
I know TCB - Track Circuit Block - but what is IBS?

Irritable Bowel Syndrome....  ::)  ;D


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on October 15, 2016, 10:37:55 am
I know TCB - Track Circuit Block - but what is IBS?
Intermediate Block Signal (a signal section - normally a distant and stop signal pair - that breaks up a long section, usually between two mechanical signalboxes). However, as always, there are exceptions to this found all over the network.


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on October 15, 2016, 10:58:43 am
With thanks for those details, I've now added IBS to the Coffee Shop forum acronyms/abbreviations (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/acronyms.html) page.  :)


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on October 15, 2016, 12:15:02 pm
Chacewater, Redruth
Considering there is already an IBS on the down main at Baldhu, will the section become TCB or is there going to be an arrangement similar to that over Druimuachdar where there is more than one IBS between the boxes?
Truro to Roskear is being converted to TCB using axle counters.  The intermediate signals (excluding T45 at Baldhu - control retained by Truro) will be controlled by Roskear.


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ZoŽ on October 15, 2016, 12:42:28 pm
Thanks.  I wonder what will be going on the lever lead for T45.  I seem to remember a discussion elsewhere about the situation where a previous IBS has been retained as a controlled signal from the lever frame when the line was converted to TCB and the only obvous example was Great Missenden where the signal was simply referred to as "Intermediate".  That said, is there any reason why T45 (and indeed the new signals) can't just be automatics?


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on October 15, 2016, 02:33:56 pm
Thanks.  I wonder what will be going on the lever lead for T45.  I seem to remember a discussion elsewhere about the situation where a previous IBS has been retained as a controlled signal from the lever frame when the line was converted to TCB and the only obvous example was Great Missenden where the signal was simply referred to as "Intermediate".  That said, is there any reason why T45 (and indeed the new signals) can't just be automatics?
Some of the intermediate signals will have an 'Automatic Working' mode and will be slotted by the adjacent signalbox due to axle counter boundaries.  I would suggest that the reason the new signals are not pure automatics is due to the number of level crossings that are involved and that need to be protected.  Anyway, trying not to make this thread too technical for the general reader.


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on June 12, 2017, 09:34:31 am
I have heard today that AMEY has ben awarded the contract for Phase 1 of the resignalling.


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on June 12, 2017, 12:15:31 pm
Reports elsewhere suggest that this contract - if Phase 1 is for Truro to St Erth resignalling - has gone to Atkins, not Amey.

http://www.railstaff.uk/2017/06/12/atkins-awarded-9m-contract-upgrade-signalling-cornwall/ (http://www.railstaff.uk/2017/06/12/atkins-awarded-9m-contract-upgrade-signalling-cornwall/)


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on June 12, 2017, 02:03:40 pm
Reports elsewhere suggest that this contract - if Phase 1 is for Truro to St Erth resignalling - has gone to Atkins, not Amey.

http://www.railstaff.uk/2017/06/12/atkins-awarded-9m-contract-upgrade-signalling-cornwall/ (http://www.railstaff.uk/2017/06/12/atkins-awarded-9m-contract-upgrade-signalling-cornwall/)

My contact obviously got its 'A's mixed up  ::)


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Electric train on June 12, 2017, 10:11:34 pm
Reports elsewhere suggest that this contract - if Phase 1 is for Truro to St Erth resignalling - has gone to Atkins, not Amey.

http://www.railstaff.uk/2017/06/12/atkins-awarded-9m-contract-upgrade-signalling-cornwall/ (http://www.railstaff.uk/2017/06/12/atkins-awarded-9m-contract-upgrade-signalling-cornwall/)

Good luck with that!!!


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: signalandtelegraph on June 29, 2017, 03:07:56 pm
Reports elsewhere suggest that this contract - if Phase 1 is for Truro to St Erth resignalling - has gone to Atkins, not Amey.

http://www.railstaff.uk/2017/06/12/atkins-awarded-9m-contract-upgrade-signalling-cornwall/ (http://www.railstaff.uk/2017/06/12/atkins-awarded-9m-contract-upgrade-signalling-cornwall/)

My contact obviously got its 'A's mixed up  ::)

Amey are doing the works in Cornwall East for the capacity enhancement.  4 New signals and renewals /alterations to axle counters and Plymouth/Lostwithiel panels.  New signals are at Bodmin Parkway and Menheniot.


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on August 12, 2017, 07:31:30 pm
Meanwhile I have heard somewhere that Stage 1 of the resignalling of Devon & Cornwaill will see a new panel installed at Roskear Junction to control Truro to St. Erth which would, unfortunately, see off the lower quadrant semaphores at both locations as well as the boxes.

Stage 1 of the Cornwall Resignalling only has some new intermediate colour light signal sections being installed between St.Erth (exclusive) and Truro (exclusive).  The existing mechanical signals at both of those places are remaining until Stage 2.  The new signals will be controlled from a new panel housed in Roskear Junction SB.


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 13, 2017, 09:06:49 am
Do we know to what extent the Cornwall scheme will provide location data for sites like opentraintimes to get feeds from?  I'm guessing there will be no feed as it will like the panels installed in Evesham and Ascott boxes on the Cotswold Line.  Sounds a trivial matter but things like the CIS also work much better when such feeds are provided.


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: DaveHarries on August 15, 2017, 01:26:19 am
Reports elsewhere suggest that this contract - if Phase 1 is for Truro to St Erth resignalling - has gone to Atkins, not Amey.

http://www.railstaff.uk/2017/06/12/atkins-awarded-9m-contract-upgrade-signalling-cornwall/ (http://www.railstaff.uk/2017/06/12/atkins-awarded-9m-contract-upgrade-signalling-cornwall/)
To be controlled from a panel at Roskear Junction SB from what I have heard. I also hear that the semaphores at Truro and St. Erth will remain after this control panel takes over.

Dave


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on August 15, 2017, 09:33:40 am
Reports elsewhere suggest that this contract - if Phase 1 is for Truro to St Erth resignalling - has gone to Atkins, not Amey.

http://www.railstaff.uk/2017/06/12/atkins-awarded-9m-contract-upgrade-signalling-cornwall/ (http://www.railstaff.uk/2017/06/12/atkins-awarded-9m-contract-upgrade-signalling-cornwall/)
To be controlled from a panel at Roskear Junction SB from what I have heard. I also hear that the semaphores at Truro and St. Erth will remain after this control panel takes over.

Dave

I confirmed this in the Bristol Commuters section as you originally asked the question there ::) :P
Quote
Stage 1 of the Cornwall Resignalling only has some new intermediate colour light signal sections being installed between St.Erth (exclusive) and Truro (exclusive).  The existing mechanical signals at both of those places are remaining until Stage 2.  The new signals will be controlled from a new panel housed in Roskear Junction SB.


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on August 23, 2017, 09:14:57 pm
Do we know to what extent the Cornwall scheme will provide location data for sites like opentraintimes to get feeds from?  I'm guessing there will be no feed as it will like the panels installed in Evesham and Ascott boxes on the Cotswold Line.  Sounds a trivial matter but things like the CIS also work much better when such feeds are provided.
Apologies II, I omitted to reply to your query.  As far as I am aware there is no plan for a TD at Stage 1, so nothing other than the current manual TRUST reports for Stage 1.


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on August 24, 2017, 09:41:09 pm
In response to a very helpful suggestion from SandTEngineer, I have now moved and merged a few previous posts here - and also updated the topic heading.

CfN.  ;)



Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Cornish bobby on August 31, 2017, 12:44:35 pm
For anyone who doesn't already know, it has been as good as" confirmed that there is no funding for Cornish re-signalling stage 2 in CP6. There are some proposals for some small schemes to improve reliability of the existing infrastructure going forward but this is not confirmed and is not likely to take place in the short term.


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on August 31, 2017, 01:01:02 pm
For anyone who doesn't already know, it has been as good as" confirmed that there is no funding for Cornish re-signalling stage 2 in CP6. There are some proposals for some small schemes to improve reliability of the existing infrastructure going forward but this is not confirmed and is not likely to take place in the short term.

.....are you surprised? I'm not. Having had the pleasure of being responsible for S&T maintenance in that area I always said that if some funding was available for minor renewals I could keep the existing signalling going for 50 years or so....  Its mostly signal structures that are worn out the rest is in perfect condition.  So as I suggested on here before, renew existing mechanical signals with colourlights and job done.  Penzance is a perfect example of what could be done.

If BR had still been around that would have been completed some 10 years ago.... ;)


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on August 31, 2017, 02:07:04 pm
Has CP6 funding/expenditure yet been confirmed? I think not perhaps...


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Cornish bobby on August 31, 2017, 02:30:02 pm
Has CP6 funding/expenditure yet been confirmed? I think not perhaps...

It doesn't make any difference to what I posted. Stage 2 is not happening in CP6.


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: 4064ReadingAbbey on August 31, 2017, 05:40:39 pm
Has CP6 funding/expenditure yet been confirmed? I think not perhaps...

It doesn't make any difference to what I posted. Stage 2 is not happening in CP6.

As ChrisB pointed out there is no funding allocated in CP6 for any enhancements anywhere in England and Wales. So the Cornish re-signalling is not alone.

It has been said often enough by Mark Carne, Sir Peter Hendy and Chris Grayling, following the recommendation in the Shaw Report, that as planning and execution of enhancement projects does not neatly fit into the Five Year Plan cycle, they will not be included in the Government's High Level Output Specification (HLOS). In future all enhancement projects will be approved (or not!) after they have been planned, costed and submitted regardless of when in the 5 year cycle they mature.

Basically, it's back to the position as it was with BR - projects got approved when all the ducks were in a row...!


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on January 20, 2018, 10:11:48 am
An update on the additional signalling for December 2018 has been published in the Rail Engineer here: https://www.railengineer.uk/2018/01/15/cornwalls-capacity-challenge


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: RailCornwall on February 20, 2018, 08:08:53 pm
Got sight of the publicity leaflet for the March Redruth and environs work today. Seems that for the four days of the work First Kernow buses will accept rail tickets west of Truro on any route whether directly related to the rail network or not. So in effect free travel on FK to any rail station or destination providing a train ticket covering the approximate routing for the ticket is held. So a Journey, on buses, say to Sennen from Chacewater would be covered throughout by a Truro - Penzance Rail Ticket. 


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ChrisB on February 20, 2018, 09:00:55 pm
Wouldn't it be cheaper to simply buy the equivalent bus ticket


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: LiskeardRich on February 20, 2018, 09:05:01 pm
Wouldn't it be cheaper to simply buy the equivalent bus ticket

Not sure off peak rail times, but peak time the £12 first day bus ticket would definitely be cheapest


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: RailCornwall on February 20, 2018, 10:51:21 pm
You obviously haven't seen First Kernow's fares. Most rail journeys are significantly cheaper than their bus equivalent.


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: FarWestJohn on February 27, 2018, 05:08:24 pm
I was going to book up a trip from Perranwell to Salisbury on 21st or 28th April. GWR site says line closed for signalling work. But when I go on the GWR site to book ticket there is no mention of a bus on travel details.  Is this work still on? If so I will re arrange to the Friday. All very confusing.


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: old original on February 27, 2018, 07:10:41 pm
21st - bus St Austell - Plymouth,  28th should be ok, but....


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on February 27, 2018, 09:50:53 pm
Lack of details might be something to do with this.... http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=19385.0


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: FarWestJohn on February 28, 2018, 12:25:53 pm
Thanks. No wonder I get confused!


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ZoŽ on April 23, 2018, 07:20:06 pm
Looks like phase 1 was commissioned as planned with new TD berths UM59 and DM60 (presumably for automatics UM259 and DM260) appearing in the Plymouth TD feed.


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on April 23, 2018, 10:01:00 pm
Photographs of the new arrangements can be seen here: http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/news---latest-reports-and-photographs

Warning: Photographs will appear lower down each day that passes from the date of this post.


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Kernowman on June 26, 2018, 11:22:01 pm
It appears that most of the new signals are in position now (thought the new ones west of Truro have yet to be commissioned). I have noticed however that some of the new home signals seem quite poorly sited particularly on the down line. Home signals at Menheniot, Redruth and Hayle all appear to be sited a short distance before the stations themselves. Surely it makes more sense to position the home signals just after the stations (like what's been done at Bodmin Parkway)? This rules out the need for a train for having to stop twice, waiting at a signal can be done whilst passengers are getting on and off at a station. It can also be quite frustrating for a passenger waiting to get off to be held at a signal just short of your destination.

KM


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 27, 2018, 12:46:44 am
Is it so the train will clear the section as it arrives at the station so the next train can enter behind it, rather than having to wait before it departs the station?  Iím assuming these extra ones are all Intermediate Block Home signals, so the ĎHomeí signal will also be in effect the ĎSectioní signal as far as the block section is concerned?

Iím sure SandTEngineer will be able to fill us in.


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on June 28, 2018, 10:05:02 am
It appears that most of the new signals are in position now (thought the new ones west of Truro have yet to be commissioned). I have noticed however that some of the new home signals seem quite poorly sited particularly on the down line. Home signals at Menheniot, Redruth and Hayle all appear to be sited a short distance before the stations themselves. Surely it makes more sense to position the home signals just after the stations (like what's been done at Bodmin Parkway)? This rules out the need for a train for having to stop twice, waiting at a signal can be done whilst passengers are getting on and off at a station. It can also be quite frustrating for a passenger waiting to get off to be held at a signal just short of your destination.

KM

Signals are normally provided to allow a specified minimum headway time between trains.  There are lots of other considerations, such as sighting distance and SPAD risk mitigation.  Having a signal at the end of a station platform is potentially a SPAD risk as station duties can be a distraction, causing the driver to forget the previous warning signal.  In the case of Bodmin Parkway the starting signals have been placed a trains length ahead of the platforms and can be clearly seen by a train stopped at the station, but even then the Down signal has been provided with a banner repeater signal (probably to comply with signal minimum reading time).  However, this is not always possible due to line curvature.

So in summary, its a mix and match of issues that need to be considered at a particular site.

The new signals between Truro and St.Erth are due to be commissioned next month I believe.


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ZoŽ on June 28, 2018, 04:12:06 pm
Signals are normally provided to allow a specified minimum headway time between trains.  There are lots of other considerations, such as sighting distance and SPAD risk mitigation.  Having a signal at the end of a station platform is potentially a SPAD risk as station duties can be a distraction, causing the driver to forget the previous warning signal.
I know this is going back a few years now but Drump Lane's Up Home seems to have been on the Plymouth side of Redruth tunnel so there must have been a significant risk back then of the driver seeing the distant at caution, stopping at Redruth and then forgetting about it until emerging from the tunnel.  Maybe even more so in the last few years when Drump Lane it was rarely switched in.  I wonder if this contributed to the decision to close it when it was in a better location for a block post than Roskear Junction although as discussed elsewhere the most likely reason would have been the cost of CCTV control of Roskear and Camborne level crossings.


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Cornish bobby on July 02, 2018, 05:16:20 am
It appears that most of the new signals are in position now (thought the new ones west of Truro have yet to be commissioned). I have noticed however that some of the new home signals seem quite poorly sited particularly on the down line. Home signals at Menheniot, Redruth and Hayle all appear to be sited a short distance before the stations themselves. Surely it makes more sense to position the home signals just after the stations (like what's been done at Bodmin Parkway)? This rules out the need for a train for having to stop twice, waiting at a signal can be done whilst passengers are getting on and off at a station. It can also be quite frustrating for a passenger waiting to get off to be held at a signal just short of your destination.

KM

Signals are normally provided to allow a specified minimum headway time between trains.  There are lots of other considerations, such as sighting distance and SPAD risk mitigation.  Having a signal at the end of a station platform is potentially a SPAD risk as station duties can be a distraction, causing the driver to forget the previous warning signal.  In the case of Bodmin Parkway the starting signals have been placed a trains length ahead of the platforms and can be clearly seen by a train stopped at the station, but even then the Down signal has been provided with a banner repeater signal (probably to comply with signal minimum reading time).  However, this is not always possible due to line curvature.

So in summary, its a mix and match of issues that need to be considered at a particular site.

The new signals between Truro and St.Erth are due to be commissioned next month I believe.

Commissioning is scheduled for October this year.


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on July 02, 2018, 09:58:22 am
Ah, thats gone back from the original date I had then..... ::) :P


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on September 08, 2018, 08:39:56 pm
Commissioning of the West section now planned for 12/13/14 October 2018.


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: RailCornwall on October 13, 2018, 10:00:23 am
Absolutely atrocious weather conditions for this. If considerable outside working is needed there'd be a decent argument for postponement.


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Pb_devon on October 15, 2018, 07:37:55 am
I'm 'bumping' this topic to ask if anyone can advise if the weekend work was successful?


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: ellendune on October 15, 2018, 07:41:48 am
Well there don't seem to be any train cancellations in Cornwall....


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Pb_devon on October 20, 2018, 07:54:39 am
A short report with images on the CRS news section today (20 October 2018)
http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/latest-input--news--old-pictures-etc


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: RailCornwall on November 16, 2018, 08:43:57 pm
Job complete it seems ....

https://twitter.com/networkrailwest/status/1063389926396440576 (https://twitter.com/networkrailwest/status/1063389926396440576)

https://twitter.com/networkrailwest/status/1063454968718520321 (https://twitter.com/networkrailwest/status/1063454968718520321)





Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: GBM on November 17, 2018, 03:48:06 am
Anyone know where the signalling panel was please in that first tweet?
Thanks


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: bobm on November 17, 2018, 08:21:13 am
If you click on the picture it expands to reveal....  Roskear Junction near Camborne.


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: GBM on November 17, 2018, 05:35:51 pm
OK. Ah, of course, Cornwall still has local signal boxes at most stations (thankfully).
Guess Notwork Fail envisage controlling all of Cornwall and Devon from ? and when please.

Thank you


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on November 17, 2018, 05:40:38 pm
OK. Ah, of course, Cornwall still has local signal boxes at most stations (thankfully).
Guess Notwork Fail envisage controlling all of Cornwall and Devon from ? and when please.

Thank you
Exeter.  CP7 if that......


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Cornish bobby on November 21, 2018, 07:43:30 pm
Latest reports suggest that nothing to move to Exeter in CP7 however plans to modernise Lostwithiel.

Semaphores and mechanical points to be replaced by colour lights and motor points with axle counters.

All to be controlled from an add on to the existing panel but moved to a location nearby.

Talk of a portakabin type affair in the existing down sidings which will be rationalised.

Nothing confirmed but looking more and more likely.


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Pb_devon on November 22, 2018, 07:55:04 am
Latest reports suggest that nothing to move to Exeter in CP7 however plans to modernise Lostwithiel.

Semaphores and mechanical points to be replaced by colour lights and motor points with axle counters.

All to be controlled from an add on to the existing panel but moved to a location nearby.

Talk of a portakabin type affair in the existing down sidings which will be rationalised.

Nothing confirmed but looking more and more likely.

That will be a shame....Lostwithiel is the architypical mechanical signal box, about the only thing missing is the big wheel to operate the gates!


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: The Tall Controller on November 22, 2018, 12:47:39 pm
The box (along with Par's) is Grade II listed so the structure should be retained in some form.


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: grahame on November 22, 2018, 01:03:35 pm
The box (along with Par's) is Grade II listed so the structure should be retained in some form.

Are you sure?   Don't I recall another signal box that was listed (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=12467), but the listing was removed and the box demolished? 


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Kernow Otter on November 22, 2018, 05:26:20 pm
Can confirm that our box is listed.  Talk of turning part of the sidings area into car parking as well.

Wonder if the listing applies to the mechanics of the box as well.


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on November 22, 2018, 05:58:22 pm
Can confirm that our box is listed.  Talk of turning part of the sidings area into car parking as well.

Wonder if the listing applies to the mechanics of the box as well.

Think it does https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1413727
Quote
Reasons for Designation
Lostwithiel Signal Box, erected in 1893, is designated at Grade II for the following principal reasons: * Intactness: despite the loss of the original fenestration, it remains one of the best-preserved examples of what was once a standard signal box on the GWR network during the late C19; * Date: it is considered to be the earliest known GWR-designed type 5 surviving; * Fittings: for the retention of operating equipment including a lever frame and some train control instruments.


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Umberleigh on November 22, 2018, 07:20:23 pm
If you click on the picture it expands to reveal....  Roskear Junction near Camborne.

Iím struggling to see a junction at Roskear Junction...?


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: grahame on November 22, 2018, 07:36:39 pm
If you click on the picture it expands to reveal....  Roskear Junction near Camborne.

Iím struggling to see a junction at Roskear Junction...?

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/roskear.html

Quote
The Roskear branch, part of the Hayle Railway opened 23 Dec 1837. The line closed beyond the A30 crossing in 1963 and was lifted in that year. ... This remaining stub of the branch was closed on 6 Sept 1987.


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Dispatch Box on November 22, 2018, 08:01:08 pm
OK. Ah, of course, Cornwall still has local signal boxes at most stations (thankfully).
Guess Notwork Fail envisage controlling all of Cornwall and Devon from ? and when please.

Thank you

May be a new ROC at Exeter.


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Andy on November 23, 2018, 06:07:51 pm
Can confirm that our box is listed.  Talk of turning part of the sidings area into car parking as well.

Wonder if the listing applies to the mechanics of the box as well.

I hope that the bay siding and the two adjacent ones, which form a run-round loop, will be spared; trains to Fowey would need them.


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Umberleigh on November 23, 2018, 07:01:04 pm
Can confirm that our box is listed.  Talk of turning part of the sidings area into car parking as well.

Wonder if the listing applies to the mechanics of the box as well.

I hope that the bay siding and the two adjacent ones, which form a run-round loop, will be spared; trains to Fowey would need them.

Have to say I find the Fowey line - what Iíve seen of it - really quite unique and dare I say romantic; there are very few remaining non-heritage branch lines which follow a river/estuary along wooded hillsides to the open sea (even Looe is rather brief in this respect).

Sadly, it would make an excellent cycle path and I suspect this will be its fate should the clay traffic ever cease, as sadly 1) the lack of a station in Fowey, and 2) I just donít feel there is the money and volunteer numbers in 2018 to take on a new heritage line in Cornwall. Would love to be proven wrong though...


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Pb_devon on November 24, 2018, 08:24:59 am
Looe...Fowey???  ???


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Umberleigh on November 24, 2018, 04:00:02 pm
Looe...Fowey???  ???

Fowey


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Andy on November 26, 2018, 08:44:33 am
Can confirm that our box is listed.  Talk of turning part of the sidings area into car parking as well.

Wonder if the listing applies to the mechanics of the box as well.

I hope that the bay siding and the two adjacent ones, which form a run-round loop, will be spared; trains to Fowey would need them.

Have to say I find the Fowey line - what Iíve seen of it - really quite unique and dare I say romantic; there are very few remaining non-heritage branch lines which follow a river/estuary along wooded hillsides to the open sea (even Looe is rather brief in this respect).

Sadly, it would make an excellent cycle path and I suspect this will be its fate should the clay traffic ever cease, as sadly 1) the lack of a station in Fowey, and 2) I just donít feel there is the money and volunteer numbers in 2018 to take on a new heritage line in Cornwall. Would love to be proven wrong though...

Yes, I tend to agree. Fowey would have been an ideal heritage line, whereas the B&W line from Bodmin Road/Parkway-Boscarne, and onto Padstow, really ought to have been retained as a branch on the network. For the time being, at least, freight operations preclude both the return of pasenger services and conversion into a cycle track. 
   


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: Kernow Otter on November 26, 2018, 06:55:45 pm
Certainly, the aspiration here in Lostwithiel is the retention of sufficient railway land to allow for the reinstatement of the sidings area for future railway use, and this is included in our emerging neighbourhood plan. For heritage use the missing third, or branch, bridge over the River Fowey would have to be reinstated.

While a networked branch with GWR services is an aspiration, the cessation of freight services on the branch, might allow for a combined narrow gauge and cycle route to Fowey, but no one would wish the demise of the clay industry to the extent that exports from Fowey are no longer viable.  Too much of the mid Cornwall economy depends on the Clay industry.


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: DaveHarries on November 26, 2018, 11:06:39 pm
Latest reports suggest that nothing to move to Exeter in CP7 however plans to modernise Lostwithiel.

Semaphores and mechanical points to be replaced by colour lights and motor points with axle counters.

All to be controlled from an add on to the existing panel but moved to a location nearby.

Talk of a portakabin type affair in the existing down sidings which will be rationalised.

Nothing confirmed but looking more and more likely.
The modernisation of Lostwithiel would be a shame: nice box which gives a bit of character to what is otherwise (IMO) a rather dull place to wait for a train. I suppose you can always head to a pub nearby if you have the time though. What period would CP7 be?

Dave


Title: Re: Cornwall signalling upgrade - ongoing discussion, merged topics
Post by: SandTEngineer on November 27, 2018, 10:04:14 am
Latest reports suggest that nothing to move to Exeter in CP7 however plans to modernise Lostwithiel.

Semaphores and mechanical points to be replaced by colour lights and motor points with axle counters.

All to be controlled from an add on to the existing panel but moved to a location nearby.

Talk of a portakabin type affair in the existing down sidings which will be rationalised.

Nothing confirmed but looking more and more likely.
The modernisation of Lostwithiel would be a shame: nice box which gives a bit of character to what is otherwise (IMO) a rather dull place to wait for a train. I suppose you can always head to a pub nearby if you have the time though. What period would CP7 be?

Dave

Control Period 7 (CP7): 2024Ė2029 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_Rail_Control_Periods



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