Great Western Coffee Shop

Internal documents showing plans for ScotRail's acquisition, conversion work and refurbishment of the 54 power cars and 121 Mk3s they are acquiring from Angel Trains, via cascade from GWR, have been leaked online. 

I'll not copy verbatim what has been leaked, but will point anyone who is interested to the following link:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2772989&postcount=1

Interesting reading. Interesting plans.

Just makes me wonder why GWR spent the money to revamp the interiors of all the 1st class and outside of of a couple of sets knowing they would be gone within a couple of years...

At least Scotrail are keeping the first class interiors, whereas we will be getting by all accounts a much more spartan standard of accommodation.

There is a suggestion in that thread that the HSTs in Scotland will run with only the rear power car in use.  I'm not sure how well this is going to work for Druimuachdar and Slochd.  I wonder if this will be an option for GWR services (although not over the Devon banks).

What are 'Grammer' seats? I don't think I've seen that term on this forum

Details are here (http://www.grammer.co.uk/train-seats), on the internet.  ;) :D ;D

So which GWR stock has these? The photos are rather minute!

Clcik on the blue "seat name" and it takes to a page dedicated to that seat and a bigger image. I don't recognise none of them!

I believe, but am not 100% certain, that the current Standard Class seating in GWR HSTs are ones made by Grammer. Being nearly a decade old they are not a current 'off the shelf' product. They may even have been a one off order for FGW.

I think they are the current seats in standard in the GWR HSTs - could be wrong though.

I don't think the First Great Western IC125 standard class seating was a one-off; the seats on ATW class 158 units are very similar, you can even see where the FirstGroup F logo on the seat back would go (on the ATW units it is just a blank circle).I think the headrest might be a slightly different shape though. They may not be identical, but they certainly look very similar to each other. They also look similar to some of the products in this grammer brochure (http://www.grammer.co.uk/files/brochures/Rail_Passenger_Seats_Regional.pdf), which I found by following the link helpfully posted above by somebody. I think the IC3000 (2nd class) in that brochure looks the most like the FirstGWR/ATW seats, but I may be wrong.

Erm, that'll be me, I think.  :P ;) :D ;D

Yeah that sucks but at least those lovely leather seats are going to be used. I'd like to meet the person who chose the new seats and in particular the position of the power sockets in the new Class 800/1/2 etc. 1st class. It may be a Fainsa standard location for power but it's not very clever whoever picked it.

None as far as I can tell, but the link in BNM's original post states that they are the same as the seats fitted to ScotRails Inverness based class 158 fleet.

I thought I read in thaty thread that they were saying GWR had them too?

The current HST seats are a former model of that manufacturer. The green 150248 has a current version by the looks of it, I'm on 150248 now and they do look like the ones on that webpage

I read it slightly differently, but I see where you're coming from now I re-read it!

I just googled for interior photos of ScotRail 158's and the seats do indeed appear to be the same as in GWR standard class, complete with the Mickey Mouse ears, although yellow rather than magenta or whatever the GWR colour is...

To soften the blow to First class passengers where either an entire carriage or half a carriage was removed from every set, decreasing seating and vastly increasing the cost of 1st Advance tickets on most services.

Still it's one of the best interior refurbs I've seen, GWR did a greet job. I shall be sad to see them go as the First class on the new trains looks at present very basic and plastic.

Further detail on the refurbishment on HSTs for ScotRail, including computer generated images of their livery, can be read here:

http://www.railengineer.uk/2017/03/23/scotrails-new-hsts/

Only 2 cycle spaces available for non-end-2-end journeys might be a tad lacking?

It'll be the same on a 5-car IET!

The IEP (or SET ... or SEP?) requirement was for one two-bike bay (shared use with oversize luggage) per unit. Hitachi's drawings, however, show two per five-car unit. But, as we know, these bits are lego-swappable at or after production, so that doesn't constrain what we'll end up with.

But the real point is surely about this new (I think) concept of additional space for bikes but only on end-to-end journeys. Scotrail may well be able to offer more bike spaces than GWR, as these services at least are not perpetually short of space for passengers. But what proportion of bike-toting travellers go from end to end on these routes? Surely not the leisure visitors to some of the prettier bits (even if for some of us those bits are nothing like flat enough for cycling)?

I'm guessing that some Scotrail station platforms are too short to get both power cars on & thus only available at the ends of each journey where platforms are guaranteed long enough? Or is it simply to save time with the guard only needing to open up these areas at the start or end of the journey?

My first thought was short platforms.

From what I've seen it's one bike compartment per 5-car IET, and with regard to Scotrail's HST's it's probably a bit of both - they are pains in the arse to access (hence rarely being used on GWR's services - though of course you have six normal spaces on those), and I expect short platforms are a hinderance as well.

There's a lot of end-to-end cycle carriage on ScotRail, not least people returning from Land's End-John O'Groats rides.

Very worried if it's really only going to be two bike spaces on the five-coach GWR IETs though. As stuving says, the plans back in 2012 showed four (=2 'bike and bulk rooms').

I agree.  I believe the other bulk room is a small catering store for the trolley and associated equipment and supplies.

The first GWR set (2x Class 43, 6x Mk3) destined for Scotrail will be heading north on 31st August, via refurbishment work at Loughborough and Doncaster. That's according to owner Angel Trains, confirmed to RAIL magazine.

http://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/first-gwr-high-speed-train-off-lease-this-month

I wonder what that means for GWR HST fleet availability after 31st August. They're struggling at the moment. Will there be an IEP diagram on 1st September?

Thanks to bobm for the heads up on this story.

If the bike spaces are to be shared with oversize luggage, it hardly matters how many there are. They will be full of (not necessarily oversize) suitcases even when there is lots of other luggage space available, just like on XC's Voyagers.  :(

Probably likely to short form whatever's left over as they are doing with  a lot of the remaining Turbo services on LTV?

Friday 1st September might be a problem with regards to availability but the following week the high summer timetable finishes. The daytime HST will no longer run to Newquay and the 10:47 ex Penzance reverts to being a unit to Plymouth. 

Looks like no catering vehicles are going in the initial batch but then don't GWR own a lot of them?

Aren't there some HST diagrams which are purely LTV services?  So part of the juggling that GWR will be doing could be replacement of such diagram(s) by 16x based services - which however would be detrimental on cascades westwards, those needed because on 150/1 units headed off to Northern.

There are certainly possibilities in that regard.  One diagram does the 06:34 DID-PAD, 08:09 PAD-RDG and 09:12 RDG-PAD, which could easily be Turbos, though as you say Turbo availability is also stretched until the new year!

There's one that comes down to Newbury (on weekdays) for about 0915, then turns around and goes back to PAD.

Whenever I've caught this from Thatcham at 0930, it is always lightly loaded, as opposed to the 0905 Turbo (first off-peak to PAD) which is usually rammed.

Just a thought-perhaps the focus should be on how the service can be improved, rather than the best way to make it worse?

Radical concept for the railways I know.

That might be part of the current problems - too much need to focus on future improvements, rather than shorter term issues such as this one.

Power car 43132 hauled its final passenger service for GWR this evening, 23rd August 2017. 1C91 1733 London Paddington - Paignton.

Exam at Laira before moving to St Phillips Marsh and marshalled with the other rolling stock coming of lease and heading to Scotland.

Ummm, so when are the IEPs (or whatever they're called now) actually entering revenue service? Strikes me as a half witted way of doing things...start sending the HST's off before the replacements have entered service...

IEPs are scheduled to enter revenue earning service with GWR in October.

I'm not sure that GWR were given any recent choice about sending off HSTs.  More they're being pulled out by the people to whom they were promised (and contracted from around now) in the heady days that expected electric trains to be running to Cardiff this year ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-12606470 ).   The Scots have a contract for their hire from this autumn, GWR do not.

..............so in the sure and certain knowledge, held for some time that electric trains would not be running to Cardiff this year, what did GWR do to mitigate the problem of knowing that they would have to give up old trains before new trains were available? (......or am I again making the unjustified assumption that GWR understand or indulge in the strange concept of "contingency planning"?)

GWR are just the puppet for their masters at Dft when it comes to rolling stock who micro manage as to who gets what. There's a discussion on another rail based forum about a handful of units that are due to leave GWR for Northern but GWR can't give them up as the Thames Valley Turbos haven't been released yet to release the units to head up North because electrification is running behind schedule! And so it goes on, one franchise promised another franchise's knackered old rolling stock.

Agree with Timmer (you got in first) What realistically could GWR do? They seem to me only to have three options:

a) Wave a magic wand and find some 125mph trains to hie hire in from somewhere.
b) Axe some trains from the timetable
c) Try the best they can with what they have got.

The late delivery to the iEPs (rather than electrification) is not down to GWR.  

Don't forget that the franchise extension was due to DfT expecting a lack of interest due to all the disruption and problems during this period.  

As I understand it, GWR were able to slow the exodus of HSTs to Scotland in that only one set is going this month. The original plan was for more to go at this early stage.

Extended leases on all their class 143 and class 153 because they were not committed to any future contract.  Pulled back on promises (delayed pals) to lengthen trains that are overcrowded.  There may be more things which I have overlooked (don't have my notes to hand this morning). These may not be direct replacements for HSTs, but they allow turbos as they are released to take over certain diagrams.    What's available to GWR is to a very great extent decided by the DfT - though this ability to point to the DfT may also encourage the operator to inflict a bit of pain and say "not us, guv" where they could perhaps be hiring locomotive hauled coaching stock for some services.   I don't know the finances and practicality on that last suggestion / comment I have made though. "OOz gonna pay for it?".

Contingency planning does require some knowledge of what contingency you're planning for ... and there have been so many variables here, not least trying to second guess DfT decisions on rolling stock, that any contingency plans had to be at the broadest level only.

So in terms of "variables", right now GWR have;

I) Shortage of drivers (now increasingly on weekdays as well as weekends)
II) Shortage of train crew
III) Shortage of Customer Service staff (hence delays of months in replies to correspondence).
IV) Shortage of Ticket office staff (LTV ticket offices closed at short/no notice, often with broken TVMs too)
V) "More trains than usual" needing repairs - leading to numerous short formations.

All of these entirely within their control - contingencies? (I guess a few trains given away may mitigate the driver shortage)

As for blaming the DfT, you can only get away with that up to a point, and it's worn very thin.

GWR have an extremely highly paid Chief Executive ( [derogatory text removed]) - time for him to grow a pair, earn his salary and address these issues with the DfT and other stakeholders rather than hiding behind the boardroom table.

As for "Oooooooos gunna pay for it" - the same people as always will - the customers - but if GWR publish a timetable, the accountability for delivering the services within it in terms of rolling stock is theirs and theirs alone.

Edit by grahame - 13:12 on 25th August - text removed as shown.

Totally agree with you on that. It's very convenient having split responsibility between multiple organisations, because they can both point at each other.


You may like to go back and modify your post, as that went on to be very close to a personal attack.  Also incorrect as it's certainly NOT by all accounts.  There are those of us who have a very different view, but of course being the CEO, he's mandated to place his shareholders in a priority position; the trick is to work it for the mutual benefit of shareholders and passengers.

Thanks Graham, I'm aware of Corporate structure and the role of the CEO, and in this case it's a perfect illustration of the problems and conflicts often created by combining it with the MD role.

One of the things that both roles have in common however are a great deal of accountability, and in this context I'd be interested in your thoughts on the performance of his organisation, taking my points (I) to (V) into account specifically, and his management of the situations given that the buck stops with him?

They should have asked me what my crystal ball foretold.
Right near the beginning of the long thread about the new trains, I forecast that there would be a rush to scrap/store/use elsewhere the HSTs before sufficient new DMUs were available.
Now looks what is happening!

I based my prediction upon the introduction of other new trains, including the downgrading of Waterloo/Exeter services from full length loco hauled trains to 3 car DMUs. There was a huge rush to remove the locomotives and coaches BEFORE sufficient new DMUs were available.
Likewise when networkers replaced slam door EMUs on South London services, the rush to scrap the old trains BEFORE enough new units were working reliably resulted in many cancellation and half length trains in the rush hour.

I note you have not yet edited your previous post to remove what I considered to be a personal attack on the CEO of GWR. Since expressing that view to you, I have had several moderator messages confirming a wider view that it was a personal attack, and is against your forum agreement. Please modify your post to remove the personal attack.

When member post, they are responsible for the material they post.  However, when a post comes to the attention of the moderators / admins as being in potential breach of laws (copyright, defamation, decency, etc) it becomes the responsibility of the site operators too to remove such potential breaches within a reasonable time if the original poster's not done so off his own bat.  We make every attempt to allow for a very wide range of views, but I cannot let myself be compromised legally, and would appreciate you taking a pragmatic view and sort it out - I'm sure your initial intent was not to put the forum operators here into an awkward position, was it?

Once this is resolved, quite happy to discuss whether the CEO of a subsidiary company in a group is responsible for everything ("buck stops here" mode), whether some passes back up to Aberdeen, etc.    I may also quality my general answer already given to your five points.

Indeed, the fragmented part-privatised rail system allows the various parties to get away with things by blaming each other in a circular reference. Re-nationalisation probably wouldn't bring back the lower-costs BR had it its latter years, but at least the government wouldn't be able to hide the fact they are responsible for unpopular changes being made (such as the move to enforce Driver-Only Operation on Southern; with the number of strikes that have happened so far surely a private TOC working alone without government support would have had to back down by now).

If Mark Hopwood is the Cheif Executive as well as Managing Director, then some of the above criticism might be justified (I won't go as far as to say that it is justified, because I don't know him, or the details of the situation or what he has actually done). I say this because, if I recall correctly, it was Mark Hopwood who wrote in Modern Railways years ago (2011 I think) that the use of class 222 units between London and Exeter/Plymouth/Penzance had been ruled out because passengers did not like the cramped interiors and underfloor diesel engines of those trains. I think the same article also said that they were keen to avoid falling into 'the class 180 trap' of  a fleet of trains not long enough for the job (in a way that suggested they were looking at a mix of short and long bi-mode units for the IEP routes). Rather than 'sticking to his guns' and standing up to the DfT (and/or FirstGW's financial departments) he instead allowed the IEP class 800 order to be comprised solely of 5-car units and the replacement of the IC125 fleet for Penzance with underfloor-engined units.

Ironically the electrification delays may actually have resulted in a more-useful fleet of trains than was expected at the award of the direct-award, as the extra 802s for Oxford and the 801 order changed to 800s mean there are now 9-car fully-capable bi-mode units in the fleet (but still far too many driving vehicles with 5-car units).

In order to preserve the delicate feelings of some I'm happy to qualify that all the accounts I personally have heard regarding Hopwood suggesting that [ derogatory text removed ]  represent a small number and as such do not represent all the accounts per se that everyone may or have ever made about him.....I'm sure there are a wide range of opinions, some better, some worse.....I'm also happy to withdraw the word "little" as this is may also be considered inaccurate.

Edit by GrahamE - 14:15 on 25th August.    Sorry - but this was a repeat of the defamatory text which had to be removed for legal reasons, which as initially posted could potentially have got the original poster into trouble, and once it was brought to my attention could have got me into trouble.      I am currently away from base and with limited internet access - so in order to help avoid this escalating I've placed a posting freeze on the original poster of this message.  When I'm back early next week I'll write and explain more fully and - once I'm assured that my message is understood and defamatory posts will be avoided in future - will remove the freeze.

Rail Magazine has published a full list of power cars headed for Scotland.   Here it is sorted and with names added.

http://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/hst-cascade-plan-for-scotrail

43003   Ismbard Kingdom Brunel
43012   Exeter Panel Signal Box
43015
43021   David Austin - Cartoonist
43026   Michael Eavis
43028
43030   Christian Lewis Trust
43031
43032
43033   Driver Brian Cooper, 15 June 1947 - 5 October 1999
43034   TravelWatch SouthWest
43035
43036
43037   Penydarren
43124   
43125
43126
43127   Sir Peter Parker 1924 - 2002 Cotswold Line 150
43128
43129
43130
43131
43132   We Save the Children - Will You?
43133
43134
43135
43136
43137   Newton Abbot 150
43138
43139   Driver Stan Martin 25 June 1950 - 6 November 2004
43140   Landore Diesel Depot 1963 Celebrating 50 Years 2013 / Depo Diesel Gandwr 1963 Dathu 50 Mylnedd 2013
43141   Cardiff Panel Signal Box 1966-2016/Blwch Signalau Panel Caerdydd 1966-2016
43142   Reading Panel Signal Box 1965-2010
43143   Stroud 700
43144
43145
43146
43147   Royal Marines Celebrating 350 Years
43148
43149   University of Plymouth
43150
43151
43152
43163
43164
43168
43169   The National Trust
43175   GWR - 175th Anniversary
43176
43177
43179   Pride of Laira
43181
43182
43183

Names as at http://www.125group.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/fleetlist.pdf - July 2016

I doubt they will, but it would be a nice gesture if 033 and 139 retained their nameplates.

Just out of interest, what's the significance of those two drivers?

Brian was killed in the Ladbroke Grove crash and Stan in the Ufton Nervet one.

If not, maybe they can be transferred onto the 800s as 'Great Westerners'.

I doubt it too. However it would be nice if the nameplates found their way to the families if, of course, they would like them.

I agree. I also hope that 43003 either retains its nameplates (sadly very unlikely) or those nameplates are kept safe in the ROSCO's possession (with the power car not being given a different name in the meantime) to be sold with the loco when it is eventually withdrawn from service (and hopefully then enters preservation, if it goes for scrap then sell the nameplates seperately but hold onto them until that day).

Shame 43175 isn't staying for the GWR short sets, it would have been rather fitting to keep it on the Great Western and give it the metal logos off 43005, 43187 or 43188 (ditto for 43003).

Agree, or if the families don't want the nameplates, perhaps they could be auctioned and the proceeds given to the families ?

Or donated to the National Railway Museum.

Rumour (uncorroborated source):

That's really good news if true.

That list of power car names reminded me of an incident at Reading a few years back.

43179 Pride of Laira had developed a fault and a fitter was summoned from Old Oak Common to coax some life back into it.  As he clambered down from the power car, covered in grease and grime after tinkering in the engine room, he muttered to me "If that's Laira's best, I don't think much of it!"  ;D

I found a list somewhere of First Great Western power car depot allocations. Not sure if it is correct, but if it is then 43179 is not really "Laira's best"; far from it, since my list shows it is allocated to Old Oak Common. Again, that might be incorrect information, so can anyone confirm?

Try this list (http://www.125group.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/fleetlist.pdf), from the 125 Group.  ;)

Ah, that might be where I got my list from. Look at the 'depot' column for the so-called "Pride Of Laira"; it says "OO" for Old Oak Common.

I did, and it does.  :)

My personal favourite power car, for no reason other than the name it carried for the last decade or so, left the West Country yesterday, 1st May 2018, for the last time. A brief stop at St Phillips Marsh, Bristol before onward to Scotland.

Farewell 43003 Isambard Kingdom Brunel.  :'(



A few of my' spots' of IKB:

(https://preview.ibb.co/m6A3yn/rps20180502_013040_2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cyLgjS)
(https://preview.ibb.co/j3UwJn/rps20180502_013004_2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/eePVdn)
(https://preview.ibb.co/hH03yn/rps20180502_013106_2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/deDOyn)
(https://preview.ibb.co/h4ydW7/rps20180502_012935_2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jF81jS)

Aah, that'll be the new 6+2 Fortress class,  for slightly longer journeys!!

From The Scotsman (https://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/age-of-the-train-delayed-by-wrong-kind-of-carpet-1-4772224)

When it comes to the railways, they just never, ever get it right do they?

Still I suppose we've had the wrong sort of leaves/sunshine/rain/snow...…….why not the wrong sort of carpets too?  ::)

I notice that Scotrail have hired out a couple of their newly-acquired HST power cars to LNER. 

Might as well as they can’t use them.

The first ScotRail HST in passenger service is scheduled to be the 0907 from Aberdeen to Edinburgh on Monday 15th October 2018.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-45800463

364 days after the IET, maybe they were feeling unlucky. :)

ScotRail quietly slipped out a HST Zulu train today, Weds 10th October 2018, the 'actual' first passenger carrying ScotRail HST. It ran from Aberdeen at 1155, ten minutes ahead of a scheduled service to Edinburgh.

It failed between Leuchars and Ladybank. :o ::)

Air leak and horn issue apparently. Sat down for 45 minutes. Made up some time and finally rolled into Edinburgh 30 late.

Yep. The sainted HST, cruelly cast away to the mysterious land beyond Hadrians Wall, showed the Scots just what it thought of pootling along at nae more than 100mph. Cocking a snook after being prodded, poked, operated on, and lopped. :P

Not the most auspicious of starts. It goes to prove though that it matters not one jot whether a train is brand new, whether it is repurposed, whether it's a Triggers Broom bodge of bits. Show it some passengers and it can and will sit down in a huff.

I'm looking forward to the first passenger runs of the Class 769 and Class 230...

Oh, and this is on the door to the catering store apparently.

(https://preview.ibb.co/n2eSg9/Dp_JJJg_SX4_AAP7n_B_3.jpg)