Great Western Coffee Shop

All across the Great Western territory => Buses and other ways to travel => Topic started by: chuffed on December 26, 2016, 20:18:52



Title: First bus Saturday services-shouldn't Saturday terms and conditions apply ?
Post by: chuffed on December 26, 2016, 20:18:52
First are running Saturday services on weekdays throughout this week.To my way of thinking, concessionary passes should be available all day, as they are on Saturdays Sundays and public holidays the rest of the year. What do others think ?


Title: Re: First bus Saturday services-shouldn't Saturday terms and conditions apply ?
Post by: grahame on December 26, 2016, 21:04:07
First are running Saturday services on weekdays throughout this week.To my way of thinking, concessionary passes should be available all day, as they are on Saturdays Sundays and public holidays the rest of the year. What do others think ?

Concessionary pass availability is set by your local transport authority - that would be Wiltshire where I live. Legally they must provide it from 09:30 to 23:00 Monday to Friday and at all times weekends and d=bank holidays.  They are the ones who would need to make a decision to extend the scheme to cover this week.

Many bus services are run "commercially" - bit of a joke in that they get BSOG and lots of concessionary fare payments from the council to help them break even make a profit, and for those services the decision on when to run (when they can make money based on the farebox plus the extra statutory payments of BSOG and ENCTS is made by the bus operator.

Remaining bus services are "subsidised" - filling gaps where no-one's prepared to run commercially, but the transport authority feels there's need for a service, and is prepared to back up that feeling with an extra support payment in addition to BSOG and ENCTS.   The times of buses, and whether or not they accept ENCTS outside legal minimum hours, and what timetables they run this week, are all going to be part of the subsidy agreement and goodness knows who your should ask about it.

It's not unusual for subsidised services to accept ENCTS journeys a few minutes before 09:30 where the service in question only runs very infrequently, and if First is running such a subsidised service to a Saturday timetable this week that pushes it from after 09:30 to before 09:30 at your local stop then you have an excellent case for having it accept ENCTS early. You would need to get your local council officers to agree and inform the bus company, and I suspect if you email them you may get an "out of office until 3rd January" response, which gives you plenty of tim to get it set up for next year if timetables haven't changed by then.


Title: Re: First bus Saturday services-shouldn't Saturday terms and conditions apply ?
Post by: TonyK on December 26, 2016, 23:17:40
I found ENCTS - English National Concessionary Travel Scheme - in the list of abbreviations. I'm blowed if I can find BSOG, nor work it out, unless it's a toilet for dyslexic passengers.


Title: Re: First bus Saturday services-shouldn't Saturday terms and conditions apply ?
Post by: JayMac on December 26, 2016, 23:41:29
The Bus Service Operators Grant. A partial refund of fuel duty, enabling operators to provide sustainable returns to shareholders socially necessary public transport.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_Service_Operators_Grant


Title: Re: First bus Saturday services-shouldn't Saturday terms and conditions apply ?
Post by: grahame on December 27, 2016, 00:17:32
I found ENCTS - English National Concessionary Travel Scheme - in the list of abbreviations. I'm blowed if I can find BSOG, nor work it out, unless it's a toilet for dyslexic passengers.

The Bus Service Operators Grant. A partial refund of fuel duty, enabling operators to provide sustainable returns to shareholders socially necessary public transport.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_Service_Operators_Grant

Sorry and thank you.  I've gotten so involved in buses that I forget others haven't.


Title: Re: First bus Saturday services-shouldn't Saturday terms and conditions apply ?
Post by: TonyK on December 27, 2016, 09:59:14
Sorry and thank you.  I've gotten so involved in buses that I forget others haven't.

Oh dear...


Title: Re: First bus Saturday services-shouldn't Saturday terms and conditions apply ?
Post by: brompton rail on December 27, 2016, 11:07:33
Well, where I live -South Yorkshire- the PTE announced (on their website & probably on 'Festive Travel' leaflet) that Bus Passes are valid all day between Monday 26th and Monday 2nd. This also covers Sheffield Supertram. For SY residents only there is a further concession that the Pass allows half fare rail travel on Northern services only from start of service to finish with no peak fares applicable ( these are relaxed for all passengers).

That's the good news, the bad is that (apart from very few routes in Sheffield) there were no buses on Boxing Day, and New Years Day, Sunday service today (27th) and Jan 2nd, and Saturday frequencies Wednesday to Saturday (where buses end by 18.00).

Incidentally I noticed that Stagecoach in Cheltenham operated regular services (on town routes at least) all day yesterday (Boxing Day).

Every incentive to keep folks out of their cars!😀


Title: Re: First bus Saturday services-shouldn't Saturday terms and conditions apply ?
Post by: TonyK on December 27, 2016, 11:31:38
I had a couple of drinks. It was all I needed to keep me out of the car.


Title: Re: First bus Saturday services-shouldn't Saturday terms and conditions apply ?
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on December 28, 2016, 00:12:54
I've now added Bus Service Operators Grant to the Coffee Shop forum's list of abbreviations (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/acronyms.html).  ;)


Title: Re: First bus Saturday services-shouldn't Saturday terms and conditions apply ?
Post by: chuffed on December 24, 2018, 13:13:50
I started this thread in December 2016. We now have 'Saturday services' right up to January 5th on Firstbus services and they have still not addressed this issue. South Yorkshire PTE are leading the way by lifting all restrictions on concessionary passes right across the Christmas period. So how about it, Mr James 'Scrooge' Freeman ?


Title: Re: First bus Saturday services-shouldn't Saturday terms and conditions apply ?
Post by: grahame on December 24, 2018, 13:17:10
I started this thread in December 2106. We now have 'Saturday services' right up to January 5th on Firstbus services and they have still not addressed this issue. South Yorkshire PTE are leading the way by lifting all restrictions on concessionary passes right across the Christmas period. So how about it, Mr James 'Scrooge' Freeman ?

Not in time for this holiday season, but I will ask at the Bath Bath User Panel on 22nd January.


Title: Re: First bus Saturday services-shouldn't Saturday terms and conditions apply ?
Post by: Adelante_CCT on December 24, 2018, 13:21:41
I started this thread in December 2106.


From the future?


Title: Re: First bus Saturday services-shouldn't Saturday terms and conditions apply ?
Post by: TonyK on December 25, 2018, 09:07:59
My time machine isn't working properly, but I should have it fixed by last Christmas...


Title: Re: First bus Saturday services-shouldn't Saturday terms and conditions apply ?
Post by: Reginald25 on December 25, 2018, 09:52:46
To be absolutely objective, the Saturday based timetable and the ENCS, are independent. In Wilts, they have chosen to offer the free fares at all quieter times (whether working weekday, bank holiday or weekend) - but just because the bus company is running to weekend times, doesn't mean that it's 'off-peak'.
In practice of course, most of us think of the holiday as starting Friday 21st December to Monday 2nd January and expect fares to charged to bank holiday rules. I'm not sure what the financial implications are for the councils/central government and for the operators (ENCS travel is refunded at a lower rate than fare box prices) but I'd rather a Saturday bus service throughout the period with chargeable early morning buses, than no  buses at all.
Interestingly, rail journeys I looked at  for 27th December on GWR were off peak all day. Whether that is to compensate for the reduced service due to eng works or just an attempt to get more seats in use at a quiet time, I don't know.
 



Title: Re: First bus Saturday services-shouldn't Saturday terms and conditions apply ?
Post by: plymothian on December 25, 2018, 11:37:09

Interestingly, rail journeys I looked at  for 27th December on GWR were off peak all day. Whether that is to compensate for the reduced service due to eng works or just an attempt to get more seats in use at a quiet time, I don't know.
 

Generally during "Christmas week" (usually the Monday before Christmas Day until 1 January inclusive) on the railways all ticket restrictions are lifted. Some exceptions apply. Minimum railcard fares still apply Mon - Fri excluding bank holidays.


Title: Re: First bus Saturday services-shouldn't Saturday terms and conditions apply ?
Post by: grahame on December 25, 2018, 16:14:05
To be absolutely objective, the Saturday based timetable and the ENCS, are independent. In Wilts, they have chosen to offer the free fares at all quieter times (whether working weekday, bank holiday or weekend) - but just because the bus company is running to weekend times, doesn't mean that it's 'off-peak'.
In practice of course, most of us think of the holiday as starting Friday 21st December to Monday 2nd January and expect fares to charged to bank holiday rules. I'm not sure what the financial implications are for the councils/central government and for the operators (ENCS travel is refunded at a lower rate than fare box prices) but I'd rather a Saturday bus service throughout the period with chargeable early morning buses, than no  buses at all.

You're totally right that the timetable choices on commercial routes and the ENCTS funding decisions are not syncronised, just as ENCTS funding even at normal times has anomalies.  There's a legal requirement for ENCTS to be provided at certain times and there are "bare minimum" councils.   There are also more generous ones, and ones who are pragmatic in providing extensions to help make bus operation more viable - ask me on a day that's not Christmas Day to talk about the 09:00 v 09:30 start.

Which is not to stop you, me, or anyone else with an interest suggestion some sort of harmonisation.  Old problem being that neither the local authorities nor the bus operators really believe that Joe Public who uses the bus actually understands bus funding and accounts, and that both believe that Joe Public is typically interestedly in HIS local bus stop and where he goes on the bus from it. Sadly, without too many bus user groups, Friends of a town's bus stops and community bus partnerships, the local authorities and bus operators are all too often correct in their reading of the knowledge and motivation of the "campaigner".

Quote
Interestingly, rail journeys I looked at  for 27th December on GWR were off peak all day. Whether that is to compensate for the reduced service due to eng works or just an attempt to get more seats in use at a quiet time, I don't know.

The whole week is off peak / super off peak.  You can be assured that it will have been looked at commercially rather than as providing compensation.   It makes sense with a very high proportion of potential leisure traffic which is likely to be cost sensitive during that period to encourage it, and it would probably be a very poor piece of PR to charge anytime fares during what - for most of the office population these days, I suspect, is in effect a public holiday.


Title: Re: First bus Saturday services-shouldn't Saturday terms and conditions apply ?
Post by: rogerw on December 25, 2018, 20:20:08
I haven't checked this year but last year not all rail operators relaxed restrictions between Christmas and New year


Title: Re: First bus Saturday services-shouldn't Saturday terms and conditions apply ?
Post by: Reginald25 on December 26, 2018, 10:05:35
Looked at Ashford (Kent) to Waterloo. Still some anytime fares in evidence.


Title: Re: First bus Saturday services-shouldn't Saturday terms and conditions apply ?
Post by: paul7575 on December 26, 2018, 12:37:09
I haven't checked this year but last year not all rail operators relaxed restrictions between Christmas and New year
They never do, IIRC.  It’s only really the main intercity operators that routinely do this, most (if not all) London commuter operators don’t relax restrictions.   Can’t say for northern areas...

Paul


Title: Re: First bus Saturday services-shouldn't Saturday terms and conditions apply ?
Post by: stuving on December 26, 2018, 13:09:00
I haven't checked this year but last year not all rail operators relaxed restrictions between Christmas and New year
They never do, IIRC.  It’s only really the main intercity operators that routinely do this, most (if not all) London commuter operators don’t relax restrictions.   Can’t say for northern areas...

Paul

What the NRE Journey Planner thinks (and I can't rule out its being confused or misinformed) is that SWR are applying peak restrictions on the man lines - e.g. from Salisbury, Basingstoke, or Eastleigh  - but not on the Windsor lines - e.g. from Wokingham, Oxford, or Westbury. So it's offering off-peak tickets in the peak tomorrow from Westbury to Richmond, routed via Salisbury, but not from Salisbury!

PS: of course there's two types of bustitution then (if the routeing is strike-affected), and still one at Westbury on Friday, but I don't think that affects the peak/off-peak decision. Mind you, the range of different off-peak fares from Westbury vis differing routes is in itself baffling.

PPS: I can't see any announcement from SWR.



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