Great Western Coffee Shop

Hello, long time reader but new member here. Apologies if I am posting this on the wrong forum.

When I am getting on a HST from my local station I like to listen out for the "First class is at the rear", or "This train is in reverse formation" announcement as I then know which side of the platform to be on to embark onto my preferred domain - the quiet coach. When I am at a station I regularly use these announcements are useful as I know which ends of the platform the front and rear of the train will be.

Recently I found myself making a connection at Reading station, a station which I am not at all familiar with having previously only passed through it on a train. A few moments before my train arrived, the familiar announcement sounded signifying that I needed to be at the front of the train for the quiet coach; it was only then that I realised that being unfamiliar with the geography of the station, I had no idea which direction the train would be coming from and therefore where the front or rear of the train would be.

I couldn't see a member of staff, so I took a chance and went to the left side of the platform and that happened to be the right decision.

So, the reason for my post is that the announcement was not actually that useful to me as a fairly regular train user. If the automated announcement said "First class passengers should be on the left hand side of the platform" that would have been useful, which I have heard station staff themselves announce in addition to the automated announcement at stations such as Truro.

I am curious if:
a) I am alone in this particular experience,
b) If I am not alone, who would be the best person or company to bring it up with?

I’m not naïve enough to expect the announcements to change off the back of one letter, but it would be nice to make somebody aware that the automated announcements are not always that helpful.

Thanks,

Welcome to the forum, Grant.

Agree that it's pretty useless if you don't know which way the train is coming in.  There used to be four different coloured zones to help direct people to certain parts of the train.  Gold Zone was First Class naturally!  Not sure why that stopped as I thought it was a pretty useful system.  At Reading the answer would be fairly simple as the platforms are split into 'A' and 'B' sections so it would be quite easy to add a note to the CIS saying something like 'First Class at the Rear - located on platform 9A' - though that wouldn't work at other stations.

First, "Welcome to the forum as a posting member" Grant.

You raise an excellent question which actually goes much wider / general - how do newcomers to a location / service or indeed to the railways as a whole learn from announcements and signs?  Could those be improved / added to?  Do you get to a point where announcements and signs are so voluminous they're loosing effect even if well tuned?  Do you prioritise extra information for the regulars who on many service provide the most "bums on seats" over welcoming a tiny minority of new users if you are limited in what you can present by time, space, or customer patience?

I have been know to ask "but where IS the front of the train - how are people supposed to know?" too, and shoulders were shrugged ...  but then this is something that's probably a general not a local issue and worth raising with "management".  It may even - as much of the signage is - be set by Rail Delivery Group and Department for Transport rules or guidelines.  I'll let others comment on that, but come back if need be and make suggestions of where to go if no-one else does.   Excellent thoughts - and so much after our (TRansWilts) hearts where we're looking to bring newcomers to rail onto the system.

"Who's who?" is a good board for you to find the contact, Grant ... I suspect this will turn into a discussion of your suggestions (and if so it adds weight to you single voice).  If that's the case I'll probably move it to "Smoke and Mirrors" as its about the confusion that the rail industry causes its customers.  But, really, if you feel that a particular board is a good place to start a thread, that's good with us.  The forum's here for people to use, not for them to learn too many more rules and conventions!

some kind of signage at stations would be useful (there is at Bath already).  

Anything that encourages passengers spread out along the platform and stand in approximately the right zone, can only have a positive impact on station dwell times and subsequent right time performance.  

Your example of Truro is one I was going to mention as helpful.

"First class is near the level crossing, quiet coach A is out in the Cornish sunshine" was a recent announcement I heard.

It was pouring with rain and those who don't know Truro the canopy stops at around coach C.

Grant, you are definitely not alone. This is something that really annoys me when I go to a station I'm not that used to.

The station I've found it to be a particular problem is Birmingham New Street. Because the platforms there are so narrow, if you stand in the wrong place, it is difficult to move to where you want to be when the train arrives, as the tide of people both alighting and getting off make that impossible. There rarely seem to be any staff to ask, and when I've asked other people waiting, they usually say they don't know. I've often found myself watching which way people tend to be looking, and taking that as a sign that if most are looking one way that is where the train may arrive from, but it doesn't always work!

Considering the millions spent on it the signage at New Street is nothing short of a disgrace.   

I noticed the other day  it looks like a load of additional screens are being installed on the transfer deck at Reading.

At least it's all one way movement.   ;D  Typos sometimes bring a smile don't they?

Well I had a 50% chance of getting it right.  ;D

In any case, it may go back out that way (and you may not know that) - so anything that refers to the front or back end has to be even more carefully worded.

I'm sure the screens at Birmingham NS show wording such as 'First Class at the Rear on Departure' which is a great help when the train reverses there and you don't know which way its coming in..... ::) :P

Whilst waiting on there yesterday I was asked by someone who sounded from the accent to be Dutch what time the next train was to Paddington. A 'next fast train' screen was right above me so I could just point to it. The transfer deck though doesn't have a focal point for people to look.

The automated announcements and CIS can also been misleading/unhelpful at times of disruption. I was at Newton Abbot earlier this week when a problem with a level crossing at Penzance caused several trains to be very late or even cancelled. One of the delayed XC services (1S43 PNZ-GLC) was canned at Plymouth, 80+ late and replaced by 1Z43 PLY-GLC, running in 1S43's normal path.

The automated announcement was along the lines of .... "We regret to announce that the 0903 XC service to Glasgow Central has been cancelled; the next available service will be the 0903 XC service to Glasgow Central".

The CIS showed....
   0903  Glasgow Central     Cancelled
   0903  Glasgow Central     On time

Cue several puzzled pax - "Is it running or has it been cancelled?". Thankfully, the platform staff put out a manual announcement explaining the replacement service and reason for it. There ought to be some way of overriding the automated announcement under such circumstances as the vast majority of pax just need to know that the next service is the 0903 to Glasgow Central, regardless of whether it is the original or a replacement.

Philwakely. When an XC is majorly delayed through cornwall they terminate that train at Plymouth, but restart it with a a voyager that was due to form a later service to get it on time. The service delayed from cornwall then forms a later Plymouth departure.
I was on a 120 late pnz to glc sometime last year which was canned at Plymouth. The train then went on as a Plymouth to Manchester service. The Manchester train has formed a Plymouth to Glasgow in the Penzance trains on time slot

Yes, I was aware of that arrangement. What I was pointing out though was the lack of joined up thinking in the automated announcement reporting both the cancellation and the replacement as though they are completely separate services

At Guildford there are signs on the opposite platforms roof that say "Portsmouth End" and "London End" with arrows pointing in those directions. Do any other stations do that?

Similar signs exist at Perranwell. A request stop on the Falmouth branchline.

I think that happened in quite a few places, where someone painted it there - often a long time ago, and mostly long gone. The current standard signage doesn't include anything of the kind, so, as it's not in the catalogue no-one can order it.   

That Sign has now gone.





Edit note: Quote marks fixed, for clarity. CfN.

Possibly not this topic but on the News  Quiz Radio 4 one of the panellists read out a clipping of on train announcement   the jist of which was:.

" For those passengers wishing to alight at Slough we've just passed Slough!!

Not sure when it was don't recall anything about it locally.

Move to Lighter Side if more appropriate.

To me the worst is no, wrong or misleading information, although I think that airports are far worse than railway
stations.

Returning from Oxford last Monday, I went for the 1431 but it was (and continued to be) indicated as "delayed". An up turbo rolled in, so I asked the three staff on the barrier was this the 31. Don't know was the reply so I tried the information desk, similar reply followed by well meant but long 'phone call to find out. Finally (at 1434) we guessed that it was, the 37 stopper being indicated as next,  the anonymous turbo having departed, although still "delayed"!. It seems that there is a duty announcer at Oxford, either under Trappist vows or as in the dark as we were. The embarrassed staff were of course exemplary in apologising etc.

I wonder whether GWR is really up to handling electric trains.

OTC

Why did nobody (including the station staff) ask the train staff?  They at least should know!

Probably because of the barrier.

Common sense should have told me to wait on the platform and ask the guard, as you say. The concourse is more inviting though.

OTC

If it was a turbo would there have been  been a Guard?

Later edit.

On a related issue, my local First bus in Bath takes a circular route, leaving the Bus Station to go up the hill to Southdown and then return back down to the Bus Station. The screens at the bus stops now say Bus Station as the destination for those buses going uphill (presumably because that is the ultimate destination), which will confuse anyone who doesn't regularly use the service.

Me: Officer, the 0803 this morning left at 0803.  If that's not unusual, I don't know what is.

My solicitor suggests that pleading guilty to "Wasting Police Time" is the most appropriate course of action.

 Mischievous!   ;) :D ;D

On many platforms, you should be able to tell where the front of the train will be because there will be a stop-marker board (either an S or something like 2-car stop, 3-car stop etc.); unless the platform is used bi-directionally that should help.

Not additional - the existing screens, and the information kiosk below them, have been repositioned. That brings them closer to the direction you face having come up from the main entrance, but that's not the reason. They had to move to make way for - more retail! Another unit (no sign of what) is being built in that corner.

On a slightly related subject, work on the Three Guineas has now moved to downstairs and the bar itself. The heavier work before Christmas was on the structure and the lantern, no doubt to help the poor old thing get over having the rest of the station demolished and rebuilt around it.

Interesting responses - I am glad that I am not the only one who has been left confused by the announcements!

Funnily enough, a few days after posting this thread I boarded the 1307 Edinburgh to Plymouth Cross County train at Birmingham New Street and fell victim to another variation of automated announcement. For those who don't know (I didn't!) this particular train goes as far as Gloucester as two four-car units, where it splits into two separate units with only one of those units continuing onto Plymouth. The New Street automated announcement stated that passengers wishing to travel beyond Gloucester should be in the rear four coaches, which was of no use to me as a newbie to the station. Alas, I waited at the wrong end and enjoyed a coach almost to myself to Gloucester where I had to transfer onto the other, rear, set.

It was then that a 'helpful' conductor announced over the tannoy that only the front four carriages were continuing onto stations towards Plymouth. Fantastic I thought - the automated announcement must have been wrong and I won't have to give up my seat. Wrong. Luckily a different conductor walked through the carriage, and informed me that the train reverses upon leaving Gloucester, so the 'front' is now at the other end. I made it onto the other set in time (and got a seat) thanks to the other conductor, but was left surprised that the original conductor would make such a confusing tannoy, assuming it to be common knowledge that the train reversed at Gloucester.

I had my first trip on one of the new cl.387's yesterday evening from Hayes into Paddington (and very impressed I was). At the first stop (Southall) the announcement states "due to short platforms, the doors in the coach 8 will not open here" followed by "this is coach x of 8". Presumably each coach tells you what it's number in the consist is, but I couldn't be bothered moving to the next carriage to confirm!

This type of announcement would go a long way to solving the type of confusion you have experience at stations like New Street & Gloucester (and I think seems like good practice even without an en route reversal), where only those really in the know would have any clue what the front and rear of the train actually is.

This also happens on many SWT and Southern trains. Very handy when trains split en route or at short platforms.

That's interesting, the GWR 387 was the first train I had heard such an announcement on. A pretty good idea which is genuinely helpful to passengers - a rare occurrence on the railways!

Thank you for posting that, it is nice to see some evidence to back up my semi-frequent assertion that guards provide a very useful customer service role, checking the destination on your ticket and advising that you are in the wrong part of the train being a good example. Don't DOO it, keep the guard. It would be even better if the railways would only detach units in service if they have UEGs (Unit End Gangways), such as 158s and 377s. Then the guard could simply direct passengers to walk through to the correct part of the train before it reaches the split point, with no risk of the passengers being left on the platform while trying to change units. In fact, as I've often posted, I think scheduling units that don't have UEGs (and/or a helpful guard) to split-on route should be prohibited in franchise agreements.

I can't recall hearing those announcements on SWT, but I think I remember it on Southern's class 377s (which makes sense, I suppose, with 377s and 387s both being Electrostars it seems logical that both would have a similar passenger information system).

Since SWT rolled out their Auto SDO the Desiro internal displays show 'this is coach x of X', as a sort of default message when nothing else is showing; but they don't seem to do a regular audio version throughout the train.  But there are announcements along the lines of "passengers for the next station need to move forward" etc, IIRC they only play in the necessary coaches.

The Southern style Electrostar announcements have been fine tuned since new, at one time they constantly told you which coach you were in, even on single units that weren't using SDO anywhere, or after they had split; I think that was tweaked out of the repertoire a couple of years ago, so it only plays if actually needed.

Paul

LOROL 378s also do the same, especially on the East London Line.