Great Western Coffee Shop

From News Shopper (http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/15105194.Incomplete_Oyster_journeys_cost_commuters___53_million_last_year__Where_does_your_station_rank_/)

The vast, bast majority of users using Oyster/Contactless *know full well* they need to both tap in & out. So it's either deliberate, or self-forgetfullness that's the cause here. I also suspect most know of the penalty, although its possible a few haven't bothered to find out/read the T&Cs

Why we're supposed to feel (from articles like this one) that they've been hard done by, I'm unsure. There is the ability to request refunds however, and at over £7 a pop, I'm again pretty sure most do.

So the majority of this money is actually fines from those who know to tap in/out, but choose not to. It's hard to find sympathy, IMO

.....you can evidence all those assertions of course, or cite the relevant data to demonstrate its accuracy?  :)

I disagree with ChrisB

I have been caught out on one occasion when the barrier was busy because the card was not read - I should have waited for the beep, but it was busy and noisy and I assumed I had not been able to hear it because of the noise -  however the people were moving through so fast that the barrier was not closing so I was able to get through. I am now more careful but I have had to move my card around to get the beep noise on many occasions. This does slow things when it is busy.  

I got an incomplete journey once when I had definitely tapped out at Canary Wharf. About a week later I get an email from TfL apologising for their systems error and that they had sent the refund to Canary Wharf for me to collect in 7 days. That was of no use to me so I arranged a debit card refund over the phone; they made an exception apparently.

Yep me too and I can relate to Fourbee's experience as well.

If  Waterloo and Victoria main line stations are top of the list the most likely explanation here are people dumbelling or accessing the train at an open station (a proportion of the latter might be genuine forgetfulness).

Some interchanges do require tapping in/out for the change of mode which aren't necessarily obvious to people, particularly casual users.

Indeed, and I forgot about this. However, I was referring to those stations at the top of the list, and these are stations where this doesn't (generally) apply

Bearing in mind there are 95 million entrances and exits at Waterloo underground station per annum, we're looking at a problem that relates to 1.9p per passenger journey made - important, yes, but not a huge proportion of journeys.

Waterloo will be a bigger problem than other stations simply based on volume.   Once Roding Valley's passenger numbers rise to the sort of figures we see for Waterloo, I suspect it will be high up the list too  ;D

Are we not allowed to post opinion on the forum any more without hard data to substantiate it?   

Opinions and suggestions are the lifeblood of this forum - in my opinion.   I have no scientific analysis of the posts here to back up that opinion.

I think John R was referring to TG's post here. I tend to agree with him. It's obviously my opinion.

What does dumbelling mean?  ???

It's an illegal practise which I'll describe in frequent posters rather than in public (busy though - will need to be this evening).   Not sure it's what's happening here - will need to think about that.

I just googled for dumbelling (thankfully on my phone, not my work PC - there are a number of different definitions shall we say...!) and I don't think this is what is going with the example from the OP.

I have managed to confuse myself with touching in and out at Paddington a couple of times (there are not enough of the 'standalone' Oyster readers for the 'open' platforms or those with gates that only read paper tickets imho) and can confirm that the refund system works very well both online and over the phone - as long as you have registered your Oyster or payment card online and have some vague idea of what your balance should be after a journey or series of journeys. I've also seen that TfL will usually email you if there are any incomplete journeys, so they are quite proactive about giving money back.

I would suggest that the non-refunded monies may be from unregistered Oyster/payment cards, people who are either oblivious or don't care about their balance or some kind of dubious practice going on which would be uncovered should a refund be requested, or any combination of the 3.

occasional users and perhaps tourists and foreign visitors would be more likely to have unregistered cards and be more likely to understand the necessity to touch both in and out. 

Fair enough, perhaps I was a little harsh and if so I apologise for any offence taken - personally however with my background I like to have something concrete to back up my opinions, especially if I am accusing a large number of people of something illegal/dishonest.

Anyway, must fly, I'm off for a dumbelling session, still need to get back into shape after Christmas........ ;)

TfL is also sitting on a mountain of cash from Oyster cards that have not been used for a long time, some over more than 10 years. This may seem to be good but can become an operational inconvenience having to account for it etc. I sometimes get the feeling they would like to be out of the 'ticket selling' game altogether.

This is certainly why they are pushing Contactless in favour of Oyster

The original article says 'overground' station which I presume meant to refer to the main line as neither of Victoria and Waterloo have 'capital O' Overground services.

Paddington is slightly different from Waterloo and Victoria in having both leaky entrances / exits and it does have possible interchange issues particularly when the bridge end is open.

Yes, they really need to make things simpler at PAD for Oyster card users, especially at the footbridge end where there are no standalone card readers - there seem to be quite a number using Oyster or contactless as far as West Drayton and it's not particularly easy when some of the stoppers go from the low numbered platforms as those gates do not have card readers fitted. Also about time Oyster/contactless was useable as far as Heathrow, at least on the Connects.

My definition at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=18017.0

I always wait for the person in front of me to clear the gates and they *start* to close before placing my card on the reader on the basis the gates will not reopen until the card has been read successfully.  Might be mildly annoying for anyone behind me - but not as annoying as having to protest my innocence at a later date.

Always worth, if you can, doing this for people following you, or at least be aware of someone following closely behind and stop briefly to let them pass - a lot of people tailgate others through the barriers in order to not scan their card without being as obvious as jumping the barrier...I've had it happen a few times to me (I think), but sadly no staff were present whenever I've been aware of it. Big problem I believe, but fairly easily detected if staff are present and watching.

When you say leaky exits, are you referring to the lack of a ticket barrier? If yes then Waterloo has this problem as well. If you leave the main line platforms via the stairs on each platform to the subway you will come across the SWT exit ticket barriers. Just past this is the Waterloo and City line which does not have barriers. You are supposed to tap out on the SWT exits and tap in a few seconds later on the W&C validators. I suspect a lot of people are being caught out thinking the ticket barriers are for the underground thus incurring extra costs.

I was thinking of this as more of a mode interchange problem - although if there is also a way from main line arrivals out of the station that way that avoids any barriers than I suppose it does. I haven't been a regular user of Waterloo in over 20 years so wouldn't claim any expertise on its present configuration.

Thinking back to the original article - are we reading the wrong end of the story?

If you travel from Waterloo to (say) Syon Lane, checking in correctly at Waterloo and failing to check out at Syon Lane, wouldn't you come up as a Waterloo failure even though your mistake was made at Syon Lane?

That sounds right - but so does vice versa, i.e. touching out only.

What the figures really mean isn't at all clear. The table is here: Incomplete Pay As You Go journeys (https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/incomplete-pay-as-you-go-journeys-oyster.xlsx). The introductory page says:

But that table is headed "Incomplete Pay As You Go journeys by station", so where are the figures for refunds? And it doesn't explain the link with the station, though as Graham says it has to be where the touch happened, in or out.

And to add context, while Waterloo NR has £1.83M listed for Jan-Sep 2016 (£2.79M for 2015), Waterloo LU has £0.69M and £0.97M.

Those Waterloo figures (as journeys) were sharply higher for 2015, though for most stations they went down a bit. Now why would that be?

Touching in only is probably more likely than touching out only, at least as a misunderstanding rather than a failure to properly touch. After all, it's the correct procedure on buses. I wouldn't like to guess which is more common as fare-dodging.

Better education methods used?

In my case general forgetfulness to touch out when there are no physical barriers in the way. On the rare occasions I use the tube I'll enter via a zone 1 gate-line and terminate at (for example) a DLR stop where I'll just wander out of the station without even a thought about tapping out.

I had an incomplete journey transferring from tube to tram at Wimbledon. I asked a member of staff for assistance as I couldn't see a tap out post. He told me to just tap in on the tram.

It showed as incomplete journey, assumed tap out Wimbledon. It charged me on that assumption.

AIUI many staff members at Wimbledon just don't understand how it works.   There is no way to touch in 'on a tram' if that's what he really meant.

There are two sets of validators on platform 9/10, alongside the tram stop positions, and those facing you as you walk towards a tram complete your rail or tube journey and start a tram journey.   

There's a 'third party' explanation here:  http://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/wimbledon/

Paul

Ditto for me.