Great Western Coffee Shop

I just spotted for the first time on GWR wifi that they now limit usage per person to 15mb in standard class and 40mb in first class. It doesn't say over what time period. Is this new?

Seems a little mean.. be interesting to see how the wifi keeps working once my allocation runs out (if indeed I can find out that my allocation has run out). But perhaps it might at least mean the wifi is usable...

I think season ticket holders should at least get a more limited pass though..! :)

Interestingly, I found that out by accident on Saturday (04 March 2017) when I couldn't log on during my (3 hour journey home from London to the far Southwest) :P

It actually says that you can have that amount at full speed and you then get pulled back to spread the resource fairly amongst the passengers - it's not a hard limit after which you get disconnected.

I like the new data provided -

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/networklevels.jpg)


I suspect that's the system running out of dynamic IP addresses rather than the limit.

Average web page size is 2mb.

GWR's miserly wifi limit means, if you're in Std Class, just 7 web pages can be viewed at 'full speed' before you are throttled.

My experience is that 'full speed' is rarely above 2Mbit/s, even when there are few users and the train is in a strong signal area.

What GWR have done with these limits and throttling, attempting to provide access for all, is make the WiFi barely useful for anyone.

Wasn't there a commitment in the franchise extension to upgrade the WiFi? Spreading the current provision thinner is not an upgrade.

Grahame, I 'm not really an IT savvy person.  All I can say is that it kept asking me to register but then nothing happened.  Perhaps there was a fault in the coach I was travelling in?  The coach was only about 30% occupied.

I have to say I used it once more for interest and it was so slow I've never gone back. I only have a 2GB monthly allowance but that is more than adequate, even with 2 hrs per day on the train, and a fair amount of browsing during that time.

I guess I tend to be reading Coffee Shop posts, writing responses and reading simple emails. The Coffee Shop is much more tuned (a combination of design and accident) to be small download / fast loading pages even on a grotty connection, without resorting to oodles of JavaScript in JQuery libraries.  Further, I'm not peak hour crushed trains in and out of Paddington - I was on six trains today, only had to stand on one, had to share my seat pair on one other, and the other 4 were uncrowded. Three of those four has WiFi - 2 x HST and one 158, and it was fine.  The other three trains had no WiFi ... but in fact I carry my own connection and can use it if I need to, up to 15 By per month.   So my metrics aren't the same as they are for others looking to use WiFi on peak-er trains, and if I have a problem I just tend to use my fallback (and vice versa).

It is a mean allowance in STD, but I suspect the number of available DNS connections per HST are over subscribed, certainly in the peaks. Each router has a max of 256 connections ( I think), so unless there are multiple routers, say one for each pair of coaches), this wiukd be a way of sharing reasonBly the available bandwidth. I guess they're hoping pax give up once down on the slower speeds.

Another problem us that pax are selfish. Many connect multiple devices - laptop & phone are regulars, I've seen someone with a work laptop, personal tablet & a phone! Tgere ought to be a way for one person/ine login frankly.

Chiltern are pioneering an improved service, moving up to offering 4G where it exists, and the individual allowance went up twice - to 75Mb & is now 125Mb...but its still only 1Mb/sec on 3G where 4G isn't yet available.

What is the lease length?     Take an HST from coming up from the west country to London.    There are 160 user on the network by the time it gets to Taunton.  30 of them get off and another 30 join, but the usage goes up to 190 for the following (guess!) 30 minutes. 10 get off at Castle Cary and 30 on - you're up to 220 in use for 10 minutes then the leases in use to Taunton are released and you're back down to 190.   Come Westbury and of course a lot of people get off, because there's a really heavy flow from the West Country that changes there for stations Bath to Portsmouth - let's say 60 off an 80 on - and the available lease pool is overrun as 270 leases are wanted;   10 come back a few minutes later, but when the train stops at Melksham and a further 50 people board, there's no internet access for them and there won't be until somewhere after Chippenham when the leases in use by crowd who got off at Westbury are returned to the pool.

Are lease reset at the termini? Or do connections that have been "bagged" on the incoming train still get held on the outgoing train until 30 minutes after it had arrived?

No, they connection is dropped quite quickly after it detects no activity - no bandwidth being used. Its a few minutes, thats all.

And you were so nosy you ascertained that this person had connected all three devices to the onboard wifi? How did you categorically confirm this selfishness?

Could they not have been using one device as a mobile hotspot, connected to their own mobile carrier, with the other two connected to that?

If you did categorically confirm they'd connected all three devices to the onboard wifi may I make a suggestion? Stop snooping. Mind your own business.

 ::) ::) ::)

It is all a bit like being at a standstill on the M5 next to a temporary speed limit sign. I, for one, will laugh and say "I wish I could do 40 mph!"

I have never trusted WiFi on trains. I see it as a bonus if it works for a bit. I've been using XC and Virgin trains lately, and you get nothing for free in standard class, so even a slow GWR service beats that. So if it doesn't work, then I will use 4G. Or back to the Times crossword. Or I might even talk to Mrs FT, N!...

Or you could nosily look at what others are doing, then post here about their supposed transgressions.  :P

Ooh, I hadn't thought of that! That'd pass the time of day between Bath Spa and Didcot Parkway, and I'd still have the crossword to do in bed (if not doing Mrs FT, N!, that is*), and I can see the obvious fun.

Where DO you get your ideas for such amusing diversions, BNM old chap?  ;D

(*AKA "getting 1 Across")

Good discussion! And I have to report despite the wifi telling me it had a fairly strong signal and low utilisation it still didn't work. Which speaks volumes really.

After the wifi roll out I pointed out to GWR that it was unusable only to be told their commitment was to install wifi on the trains - which they have done. The problem is now that the track side connections aren't good enough so need to be upgraded. Passing the buck..

Not at all. The connections are via mobile signals - 3G and possibly 4G. If you can't get any reception on your phone, the wifi won't work either. Do we say its passing the buck if your phone has no reception down the Berks & Hants? wifi is the same.

Blackspots exist between PAD and Reading, never mind the wilds of the Berks & Hants and elsewhere. THe only guarantee of coverage would be line-side connectors. If the telecom giants thought that there was money to be made, they'd be quick to install them. TOCs can't. NR could share some of their bandwidth I guess but as they've looked at this & nothing 's come forward, I suspect there's a good reason for not doing so.

If you really *need* wifi, get yourself a dongle - but even that won't give bandwidth where there is none to be had. Satellite connections would be far better, but boy, they're expensive per connection. Until at least 5G comes along, there is no way to provide 500+ on a peak train with one decent connection each. I think education of this is needed.


Oh FFS. More *assumptions* from someone who used to be a Mod. One can see why you'd not get an invite back, eh?

Maybe
I was with a colleague?
I was with a friend?
we'd struck up a conversation and I was being shown the possibility?

There are others, but these'll do for the purpose.
But you're right - not for me to tell them what I think the rules ought to be....but that doesn't stop me commenting here about it without being in any way nosey....

If I'd made that comment in reverse, you'd have reported it - so think before posting late at night please.

And you've never commented here on conversations you've overheard? the recent thread about others watching porn? I didn't see you call them 'nosey', did you? Same thing. Either you accepted that you can't help but see others laptops, or they're being nosey. Consistency please.

This reminds me of a coach journey on an air-conditioned coach in Turkey. It was stifling inside.
FT, N! "Why is it so hot? It says this coach is air-conditioned."
Ozpay (Turkish driver) "No it doesn't, it says it has air conditioning fitted. I haven't turned it on because it costs money."
Although he did then switch on from time to time.

Bandwidth costs money, although money doesn't guarantee bandwidth as the many disgruntled passengers on other TOCs' trains who paid their money and still couldn't connect shows. Te point is made on this thread, one way or another, that many people on board will have more than one WiFi enabled device. Even when I am reading the paper, I have my phone in my pocket which may well have connected to a saved password from my previous journey. The debate should maybe centre not on whether GWR is rationing access to the internet to whether it is worth doing anything for free except saying it's there, help yourself, but it isn't guaranteed. Or should free access be timed, as happens in other paces? That might seem to discriminate against the longer-distance traveller.

We've identified the problem. What, given current technology, solutions are there?

As I said above, the most effective solution would be satellite connections. But at a quite high price. Guaranteed bandwidth, no blackspots unless in a tunnel, and possibly at stations with a roof over tracks - anywhere a line-of-sight to the satellite exists, it's on.. Basically, everywhere a line of sight exists.

They could put a router in each coach, but of course, that costs. Everyone expects free wifi these days, and that's partly the problem. Providing 750 DNS connections with the bandwidth everyone expects is the other problem. Personally, I'd charge for it (by say, 30min intervals) & provide tip-top connections.

My experience over the years has been that the GWR WiFi is a waste of time, and that I always get a better service by connecting via my mobile.

On occasion I've tried to measure the speed that I'm being offered using speedtest.net, but I've often ended up with the connection timing out during this.

I think that "WoeFi" is a more accurate description.

Can we please keep this on the right track !
One of the many good things about comming here for me ,is the friendly way that we all get along with one another and usually we don't get problems with Spam and people slagging each other off .
End of my tuppence worth Thankyou .

A very wise investment of your two pence.

If a subject's really important to people, the importance to them can all too easily lead to normal politenesses being dropped. Interesting to see that WiFi connection from the train has lead to some unseemly posting and personal stuff that's very much outside Coffee Shop bounds.

Please cut the snarky comments ... they make others embarrassed to read and reluctant to post, as well as riling / upsetting the person they're aimed at.  They don't exactly show the person making the comments in a particularly good light either!

For me, exactly this.

I find the wifi seems to work for about 10 to 15 minutes and then loses its internet connection although remains connected to the wifi router.

It is like all these things in the free v paid model.  If you are not paying for it, you don't have much ground for complaint if it isn't working.  The same applies with the complimentary food on Virgin and others.
If, as ChrisB suggests, you do pay for it and it either doesn't work or is flakey you have a much stronger basis on which to make representations.

A satellite connection would be far less likely to fail.

Whereas a mobile internet connection will go down every time there is no mobile 3G coverage, and we all know how many blackspots there are out there.

I think this is one reason why TOCs are happily going for the free model - one really has no reason for compensation...

I wonder what sort of price the satellite would work out at?

I know someone who has just returned from a cruise and was paying between £7 and £20 per 24 hours depending on what sort of access you wanted - basic internet messaging and social media, no email - email, web browsing or top of the range video streaming and calling.

Yep, I reckon that's pretty accurate. Broken down into 30min options, it wouldn't be too bad. Of course, the TOC would need to recoup on the infrastructure required too.

What on earth are you saying? I left moderation of my own accord, at a difficult time in my personal life. Those difficulties are ongoing, stressful, emotional, and take up nearly all my spare time. Moderation of this forum had to be sacrificed.

I was never invited to be a mod. I asked. I've no intention of asking again.


Maybe you were. But I'd not want to work with, be friends with, or learn later that the person I'd had a conversation with, was calling me selfish on a public forum.


What has the time of day when posting got to do with it?


So, it's an overheard conversation now, rather than you seeing something you though was selfish?

Your post just isn't worth any answer. Go read it.

Wow, this is on the level of the playground of a local primary school. Please stop.

I have locked the topic.  Requests to cease sniping don't appear to have been accepted ...

A new day - and with yesterday's noise settled and an exchange of messages behind the scenes, I'm re-opening the thread.  WiFi on trains - something that was unthinkable to have at all ten years ago - is now so important to us that it sparks strong views and discussions.

I travel on a wide variety of trains - some with and some without WiFi,  with my most commonly used service having a mixture of fitted and unfitted trains.   The class 158 and 150/2 units that have it fitted seem to be a different setup to the HST service, and thus far connectivity when available at all has been good for what I need.  With some 153s staying longer than originally intended, we'll see if they get WiFi fitted, painted green ...

As a part of my main work, I carry a MyFi device and these days that's battery/USB operated (my first one was mains only) so that I can be online most of the time even if I'm on a train without accessible WiFi; that leaves the on-train service as more a convenience than a necessity.  But I'll still connect for the "bigger stuff" when changing trains at WiFi fitted stations.

I too know people recently returned from a cruise (Mrs FT, N! and myself), and we rather balked at the $0.75 per minute cost of PAYG access. We were told by others that this was payable even for the frustratingly slow login process. Access was available at a daily rate as described by bobm, but only for the whole period of the cruise, not odd days. So we figured that if a couple of postcards home from Punta Arenas was good enough for Ferdinand Magellan when he was on the same cruise*, it would do for us too. We spent the money on drink onshore in bars with WiFi - half an hour after an exciting day's exploration before reboarding was enough to keep in touch, and the excuse for a crafty local cerveza was useful.

If the same sort of prices were applied to train-borne satellite internet access, the cost would be more than that of the actual train journey. Some would pay that without a second thought, particularly if the employer is ultimately footing the bill. Most wouldn't. We could have a two-tier system with premium rates for satellite and free / nominal cost for 4G access, but I don't think that would be workable.

On the electric railway, it is at least theoretically possible to transmit data at high speed through power lines. It works with National Grid, although that doesn't move much. That could be an area for research, but it won't make the trains go any faster or make money so probably won't happen quickly if at all. We are left with what is essentially a gimmick which works occasionally, and the knowledge that if you want a dependable signal, you must provide your own kit.

*If my memory of my history lessons serves me right, Ferdinand booked the cruise when he heard that there was a strait to the south of Chile and Argentina which had the same name as him, and he was fascinated to see it. Similarly, centuries later, I went to see the tiny Irish village that bears my surname. Fancy that - a village called Now!.

"We spent the money on drink onshore in bars with WiFi - half an hour after an exciting day's exploration before reboarding was enough to keep in touch, and the excuse for a crafty local cerveza was useful."

I remember seeing a programme about a Royal Navy ship a couple of years ago, and the Met Officer took her laptop onshore in the West Indies to get all the weather updates as she got a better signal at the local MacDonalds, than the wizardry of the RN could provide.

Thanks all for the ..umm discussion.

Given I spent over 3 hours per day on GWR, I travel with multiple connected devices..w/ coverage on O2, Vodafone and EE. They're all a million miles better than the train, but all have the best performance in different parts of my route.

My earlier point was really that it seems rather short-sighted to invest in and make such a song and dance about the arrival a capability that basically doesn't work!  During beta testing GWR consistently said it was slow because they were testing and it would be faster on launch. Of course, it never was. Even in areas of strong coverage, the service is poor. I appreciate GWR are at the whim of network capacity but they would have known this, and presumably tested, prior to roll out.

Back to the original topic..even with the new limits imposed it still seems fairly unusable. Ho hum. I'll go back to my myriad of devices!

Which is very sensible.

I've found the wifi on 158's to be far better than on GW HSTs, fine on VT East coast HSTs/91s. I don't even bother now regardless of how quiet or busy the carriage is on an HST the wifi just does not work for me. Just rely on 4G.

I have been on four cruises over the years.

The first - around the year 2000 - was the first Geek cruise - the "Perl Whirl" - and we all rushed to the internet cafes in he ports we called at to stay in touch.

The second was a later Geek cruise and WiFi was specially fitted for participants in one of the ships bars, where we all congregated to connect (rather than to drink) much to the disgust of the bar staff

The third we bought a WiFi package and connected for a few minutes to grab email or look something up, but prepared reposes off line rather than a $silly per minute

And on the fourth and final cruise we were permanently connected, even is the connection was hideously slow especially after port stops when everyone was sending pictures home.

Some numbers for download speeds (in Mbps) that I've recorded using speedtest.net over recent months:

	Train WiFi	Mobile
HST	0.12	27
Class 180	0.5	2-15
Class 180	0.3-0.9
Class 180	0.9
Class 166	0.36	20
Class 150	Failed	10-20	Bristol - Worcester

Most of this is on Worcester - London journeys. The mobile signal varies a lot (inevitably), but is always much better than the GWR WiFi. So much so that I rarely bother to record the numbers nowadays. I'll try to be more consistent about this over the next few weeks.

.......possibly the most First World of First World problems......personally it comes as something of a relief when there's no Internet access, it means people actually talk to each other.....or even open a book.....remember them?  :)

Couldn't they use the 10.x.x.x network? You would never fit that number of passengers on a train. Even if you used subnets within that range, so 10.1.1.x for coach A, 10.1.2.x for coach B etc. they would still have around 250 devices per coach.

Oh, I didn't think of technical limitations of the router; I don't know how the router differentiates traffic from each device but if each one is on a slightly different frequency I suppose that could be a hard limit.

Hardly first world! Connectivity is significantly better in India than on a GWR train.

Travelling on the Hurtigruten ship off the north coast of Norway - far north of the arctic circle and while at sea I had a full 4.5G signal on my phone. Got significantly faster downloads than I get in central London. We've a lot to learn in the UK!

Oh, and books..what are they? :)

I normally just use wifi to check if we're going to arrive on time or if there's a delay. I told the person waiting around for me at MIM that the train - despite what the display was saying at the station - was going to be late.

Does that mean that the mobile signal at MIM has improved? In single-track days you'd often find your train waiting there "for another train to clear the single track section" - but the station was completely dead as far as the mobile signal was concerned, so you couldn't tell whoever was collecting you.

Must be signal in the car park as that's where she was waiting.

I was about to say that I am going on the same cruise in October, but mine will be Greek, as in islands. Whether or not I get Wifi is of no concern. I can manage a week incommunicado.

Some more numbers, from a complicated three-leg trip last week:

GWR class 150	Failed test - 0.16 Mbps
SWT class 159	Failed test - 1.00
GWR class 158	Never managed to connect
GWR class 166	Failed test - 0.45
GWR HST	Never managed to connect

The Train Manager on the HST said that "the WiFi is being upgraded next month" - does anyone know if this is indeed the case?

I'm on a blue set led by the green Welsh dragon power car. Speed test won't connect, but it's running at a reasonable speed.
The graphs when logging on were a good indicator that the bandwidth is in low demand. Showed 5% usage.

I've struggled to get any connection since the login system was changed.

In standard class on both turbo and HST i have either not had a successful connection or one so slow that my Gmail just keeps saying trying to connect.

I've had about 10 attempts in the last two weeks. My own personal experience is that the two graphs don't make much difference. I've sat in a near empty carriage and still not been able to connect.

I believe there is only one router per set so even if your carriage is empty, it depends how busy the entire train is.

Ah thanks richwarwicker.

It was a three train turbo which had similarly loaded carriages - but I think more samples are needed!

I was also wondering if it was struggling because the wifi goes via the mobile network (my understanding is that it uses the strongest mobile network available?)  However, the signal between Reading and Paddington is usually pretty good (in my case via Vodafone) so I'm these days mostly sat there with laptop tethered to phone - as it's much more reliable than the wifi currently.

Yes it does use all mobile networks and takes the best.

My phone is set to use best available connection- wifi or mobile signal and I've noticed in particular around big built up areas it reverts to 4g.