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Title: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: SandTEngineer on March 27, 2017, 07:46:29 Apparently First/MTR Joint venture have been awarded the SWT Franchise. Can't find the press release just yet but will post again when I have unless anybody else beats me to it ::)
Edit: Here it is https://www.gov.uk/government/news/first-mtr-south-western-trains-limited-wins-south-western-franchise Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: TonyK on March 27, 2017, 08:22:18 So First will soon have the distinction of being part of companies operating both the newest rolling stock (Class 800 / 801) and the oldest (the Class 483 1938 stock trains of the Island Line) on the British rail network.
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: PhilWakely on March 27, 2017, 08:44:07 Would be interesting to see whether there will be a change in livery given the current livery is based around the Stagecoach colours and stripes (a very expensive exercise!)
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: ChrisB on March 27, 2017, 08:49:53 "More space for passengers"
Read that, if the Crossrail trains are a previous example, as fewer seats & more standing space! Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: JayMac on March 27, 2017, 08:57:54 I wonder how the news will be met in South Hampshire? ;)
Some good news for rail users on the Portsmouth to Waterloo corridor. It seems they'll be getting proper mainline rolling stock again with the reintroduction of (refurbished) Class 442s. Gone by 2018 will be 3+2 seating on Portsmouth Direct Line services. With the likelihood that the 18 refurbished trains are to be Class 442 it also neatly kills off all the wild and silly ideas for their use elsewhere. An end of an era. This was the longest continuously operated franchise by the same company, following the Railways Act 1993. The first privatised scheduled passenger train, since the formation of British Railways (later British Rail) in 1948, was operated by Stagecoach South West Trains 21 years ago on 4th February 1996. A full statement from FirstGroup/MTR Corporation, too long to quote here, can be read at the following link: http://otp.investis.com/generic/regulatory-story.aspx?newsid=857157&cid=858 And a statement from Stagecoach: http://m.stagecoach.com/media/news-releases/2017/2017-03-27.aspx Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: Timmer on March 27, 2017, 09:12:55 An end of an era. This was the longest continuously operated franchise by the same company, following the Railways Act 1993. The first privatised scheduled passenger train, since the formation of British Railways (later British Rail) in 1948, was operated by Stagecoach South West Trains 21 years ago on 4th February 1996. Indeed, Stagecoach have on the whole done a good job running SWT but let's see if a change to First/MTR can build on that. I'm not pleased that once again it's another short franchise. Great to see 442's back in SWT land. Going to be interesting how they are planning to speed up journeys on the Weymouth-Waterloo route, stop at fewer stations along the route?Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: ChrisB on March 27, 2017, 09:52:02 Stagecoach will up itys bid for the GW franchise I reckon....swap of franchises coming up?
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: Richard Fairhurst on March 27, 2017, 09:53:34 Quote We will introduce simpler fares with mobile and smart ticketing. These will include flexible season tickets Good. Now let's see that on GWR too, over and above the few available in Devon & Cornwall. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: ChrisB on March 27, 2017, 09:59:41 Next franchise? Or is there a specific clause in this one for those?
Be interesting to see what the offered discount will be? Campaigners are suggesting the same as for annual tickets, which just won't happen. It's based on the number of days travel being purchased in advance of course Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: IndustryInsider on March 27, 2017, 10:12:27 Amongst many challenges ahead in implementing the improvements they hope to bring, it'll be interesting to see how they get all the extra crew for these additional Sunday services they have promised. If it all comes to pass, another great franchise award by the DfT which really improves the passengers lot - though I predict problems and a
FirstGroup share price currently trading 3.10% up. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: simonw on March 27, 2017, 10:19:00 Interesting that the last two franchise renewals for First GWR and CrossCountry offered nothing, but this renewal offers more trains and seats.
Just a shame that First GWR could not have been forced in 2013 to lengthen there local trains to add capacity, and CrossCountry could really do with longer trains. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: ChrisB on March 27, 2017, 10:26:43 And where would they have got the stock for these?
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: simonw on March 27, 2017, 10:44:03 No idea, I was not suggesting large train purchases, but it is very frustrating that nothing has been done to address local train pressures, until the stock displacement from South East later this year and next year.
I just find it incredulous that GWR and to a lesser extent CrossCountry, have had renewals and extensions with no benefit for passengers, whilst other franchise renewals bring in extra capacity. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: ChrisB on March 27, 2017, 10:47:52 XC was a 'short' extension wasn't it? And GWR only got to 2019?, again shorter than generally - that'll be why.
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: TonyK on March 27, 2017, 11:03:40 Interesting that the last two franchise renewals for First GWR and CrossCountry offered nothing, but this renewal offers more trains and seats. Just a shame that First GWR could not have been forced in 2013 to lengthen there local trains to add capacity, and CrossCountry could really do with longer trains. The Class 442 EMUs are rather special in that there are some in storage, following their replacement on Gatwick Express. Practically everything else on wheels that still works properly (and a few that don't!) is out carrying passengers. I hope they have been given a thorough overhaul whilst in storage, although they will need rebranding. The Evening Standard (http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/south-west-trains-rail-franchise-taken-over-by-chinese-firm-in-shock-announcement-a3499641.html) views this as a "shock" announcement, although it doesn't say why. Less shockingly, it reports that RMT is against the move. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: bradshaw on March 27, 2017, 11:09:42 GWR MTR offering improved commuting at Exeter end, presumably linked to Devon Metro However remember GWR franchise expires 2019, I believe http://www.firstgroupplc.com/about-firstgroup/uk-rail/improving-south-western-railway.aspx Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: IndustryInsider on March 27, 2017, 11:13:24 It'll be good to see Platforms 4-6 at Reading being used to their full potential with up to seven trains departing from them per hour (comprising four Waterloo and three Redhill/Gatwicks), up from the current four. Though that'll be a strain on the flat junction at Wokingham!
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: TonyK on March 27, 2017, 11:21:55 GWR MTR offering improved commuting at Exeter end, presumably linked to Devon Metro However remember GWR franchise expires 2019, I believe http://www.firstgroupplc.com/about-firstgroup/uk-rail/improving-south-western-railway.aspx Is GWR MTR a typo, or did I miss something? This has clearly been under planning for some time. The link to the Devon Metro is interesting, as that will hopefully be beefed up soon with cascaded stock. Also of interest to me (as I use it from time to time) is the Bristol Temple Meads to London Waterloo service. That will now follow routes used by First GWR. Is that likely to make for any changes? Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: IndustryInsider on March 27, 2017, 11:23:51 I wonder how the news will be met in South Hampshire? ;) For those newer to the forum, BNM is referring to the wonderful South Hampsire Rail Users' Group (SHRUG) who have been vehemently criticising everything SWT have done for many years now, whilst seemingly pretending nothing good every happens and that neighbouring franchises Southern and GWR can do little wrong! Occasional discussions on the forum, including contributions from SHRUG 'Organiser' Denis Fryer, can be viewed here: http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=4949.0 (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=4949.0) They only have three options on where to go from here: 1) They will quietly disband as there's no longer an agenda for them to pursue, 2) They will continue to exist only to pretend that many of the wrongs are now righted, 3) They will become a serious RUG which will promote both the good things and campaign against the bad things, or 4) They will continue with their extremely critical views on the new franchise holder. My money would not be on option 4. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: eightf48544 on March 27, 2017, 11:28:36 Less shockingly, it reports that RMT is against the move. DOO Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: chuffed on March 27, 2017, 11:31:31 Shouldn't that be DOO-DOO ??
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: ChrisB on March 27, 2017, 11:49:27 The Evening Standard (http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/south-west-trains-rail-franchise-taken-over-by-chinese-firm-in-shock-announcement-a3499641.html) views this as a "shock" announcement, although it doesn't say why. Poor journalism again - First are majority holders in this, so why say a take-over by the minority-holder??? very odd, because it isn't. They seem to get it right in a foll up (http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/praise-jesus-commuters-react-as-south-west-trains-operator-loses-franchise-to-hong-kong-firm-a3499791.html) article on pax reactions Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: TonyK on March 27, 2017, 12:12:45 That follow up seems to have been done by today's usual standard (small "s") method of reading Twitter. Some of the reactions are amusing:
Quote Praise Jesus, whoever wins new franchise must be able to provide a better service right? from @barrowboy77. Quote Can't say I'll be sad to see the back of South West Trains, peak time services to/from London truly are abysmal & only getting worse from @forestcyclistQuote How is it South West Trains - which are quite good compared to Southern and Southeastern loose the franchise but Southern is STILL here? - @BoroughOfTevan may not know the difference between "loose" and "lose", but the question is understandable.Quote Have you ever been on Chinese train? Efficient. On time. Cost effective. South West trains are about to become a treat compared to Southern seems a little extreme in terms of optimism, but @Liam_Evans is hopeful.Others find it disgusting that we are letting a foreign company run trains, and @Kristin1406 says: Quote Ah! Now we've sold South West trains to China. Power Stations, airports and now trains ALL in 6mths. What will be UK owned after #Article50 Time will tell. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: paul7575 on March 27, 2017, 12:16:02 Gone by 2018 will be 3+2 seating on Portsmouth Direct Line services. It actually only says "fast services" will switch to 2+2. SWT could probably just about do that now if they adjusted the specific 444 and 450 operated diagrams, but the fast trains need the highest capacity. But all in all there's some significant changes. Squeezing in an extra fast Portsmouth to Southampton service will take much of the load off the Cardiffs, and something is going to operate from Portsmouth to Weymouth - I'd expect some major changes to the overall pattern, because I don't believe 3 tph all the way to Weymouth is needed all day... Paul Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: bobm on March 27, 2017, 12:20:00 It'll be good to see Platforms 4-6 at Reading being used to their full potential with up to seven trains departing from them per hour (comprising four Waterloo and three Redhill/Gatwicks), up from the current four. Though that'll be a strain on the flat junction at Wokingham! In the days of slam door stock (hence longer dwell times) I am sure there used to be four London Waterloo services an hour - two running fast to Wokingham and two calling all stations. There was certainly one North Downs service an hour as well - so that was five an hour and there were only two platforms at Reading (the old 4A and 4B). Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: Richard Fairhurst on March 27, 2017, 12:28:53 Yes, early 2000s I think (when I was commuting to Wokingham).
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: paul7575 on March 27, 2017, 12:47:30 In the days of slam door stock (hence longer dwell times) I am sure there used to be four London Waterloo services an hour - two running fast to Wokingham and two calling all stations. There was certainly one North Downs service an hour as well - so that was five an hour and there were only two platforms at Reading (the old 4A and 4B). There were four Waterloo up until the 2004 major re-write. But 2 of the Reading trains were a bit slower as they ran via the Hounslow loop, in 2004 they were diverted away from the Reading line to provide the present 2 tph Weybridge through service. Prior to that change Weybridge to Virginia Water (and on to reversal at Staines) was served by a single service per hour. Paul Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: eightf48544 on March 27, 2017, 13:03:39 Are you sure the service ran fast to Wokingham I thought Staines was the furthest non stop and then only in the peaks.
Wouldn't have thought there was enough trade even in the peaks to miss Egham Ascot Martins Heron or Bracknell. In the real old days the Windsors split at Staines for Weybridge and the Readings at Ascot for Aldershot reverse for Guildford? Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: Richard Fairhurst on March 27, 2017, 13:51:22 Fast from Reading to Wokingham, not from Waterloo to Wokingham!
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: JayMac on March 27, 2017, 14:22:13 Also of interest to me (as I use it from time to time) is the Bristol Temple Meads to London Waterloo service. That will now follow routes used by First GWR. Is that likely to make for any changes? That will rather depend on the Service Level Commitment. Hopefully the status quo at least will be maintained with 3 services in each direction between Bristol TM and Waterloo. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: didcotdean on March 27, 2017, 14:26:05 A number of things proposed seem very similar to operations that SWT used to do or tried out in its tenure.
The end-to-end Weymouth to Waterloo journey has slowed down since electrification was completed all the way because of the progressive insertion of stops through the years. At one time there was often only the one stop after Bournemouth at Southampton. Now there is Brockenhurst, Southampton Airport, Winchester, Basingstoke and Woking etc on various services. It looks like the speed up is achieved from dropping some of the stations between Bournemouth and Weymouth from the fastest service. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: paul7575 on March 27, 2017, 14:40:50 Also of interest to me (as I use it from time to time) is the Bristol Temple Meads to London Waterloo service. That will now follow routes used by First GWR. Is that likely to make for any changes? That will rather depend on the Service Level Commitment. Hopefully the status quo at least will be maintained with 3 services in each direction between Bristol TM and Waterloo. The spec for Bristol was given on a spreadsheet annex to the ITT, and is as follows: Quote Bidders must provide the level of service provided in the December 2015 timetable until December 2018. From the December 2018 timetable onwards bidders must consult with DfT on the provision of any service in excess of the level provided in the December 2015 timetable. Bidders may extend these services beyond Salisbury at their discretion, subject to the other requirements in this TSS being met. Paul Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: didcotdean on March 27, 2017, 14:41:15 Also of interest to me (as I use it from time to time) is the Bristol Temple Meads to London Waterloo service. That will now follow routes used by First GWR. Is that likely to make for any changes? That will rather depend on the Service Level Commitment. Hopefully the status quo at least will be maintained with 3 services in each direction between Bristol TM and Waterloo. EDIT - I see that paul7755 was making the same point at the same time. There could be a possibility maybe to combine with Salisbury to Southampton instead. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: Steve Bray on March 27, 2017, 14:48:52 The handover date of 20 August comes during the Waterloo upgrade when 9 platforms will be closed, with a drastically reduced service operating during that period.
Having commuted from Dorking to South West London for the last 5 years, I think that South West Trains have done a pretty good job. They have their "moments" (invariably caused by Network Rail issues) but it has been rare for my trains in the morning and evening to be cancelled and they are very rarely short-formed. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: mjones on March 27, 2017, 15:15:23 It'll be good to see Platforms 4-6 at Reading being used to their full potential with up to seven trains departing from them per hour (comprising four Waterloo and three Redhill/Gatwicks), up from the current four. Though that'll be a strain on the flat junction at Wokingham! This will transform connections at Reading. Currently most Waterloo arrivals exactly miss South Wales trains, and most North Downs arrivals almost exactly miss Bristol trains and Oxford stoppers. A lot of commuter and business travel to/ from Wokingham and Bracknell will become much more competitive with driving. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: paul7575 on March 27, 2017, 15:34:23 The handover date of 20 August comes during the Waterloo upgrade when 9 platforms will be closed, with a drastically reduced service operating during that period. I think this point gets overworked, the people at the coalface won't change, it shouldn't really be too difficult to just leave everything as planned by NR and the present operations staff. It isn't as if they all walk out the door on handover day is it? The first ;D noticeable (e.g. timetable) changes surely won't be until December? Paul Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: John R on March 27, 2017, 15:51:09 The handover date of 20 August comes during the Waterloo upgrade when 9 platforms will be closed, with a drastically reduced service operating during that period. I think this point gets overworked, the people at the coalface won't change, it shouldn't really be too difficult to just leave everything as planned by NR and the present operations staff. It isn't as if they all walk out the door on handover day is it? Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: stuving on March 27, 2017, 16:34:23 That ca. 2000 4 tph service to Reading was very odd, in that it only ran off-peak: i.e. from 9:42 ex Reading to 15:37 ex Waterloo. The peak service was much as now, 2 tph plus one or two extras. The morning peak now has an second extra train at 6:23 as well as 7:23, but nothing to quite match the old 7:13. After Martins Heron that only stopped at Ascot/Staines/Richmond/Clapham, so was 10 minutes faster than the best now (arr 8:26).
I also remember that the off-peak service ran with 4-car trains. These days you only ever see 8-car trains, except recently I've seen a few 5-car ones (10-car isn't yet possible on this line). And on Saturdays you do see, and get apologised to for, 4-car trains if the Friday-night travellers were a bit rougher than usual. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: stuving on March 27, 2017, 16:49:54 It's very hard to spot just what is being promised that's not required in the SLC, as almost all of it is. For example, those journey time improvements - 10 minutes in the case of Reading. The SLC called for 2 tph to manage 1:12/1:13, which is a bit more than 10 minutes better.
The capacity figures are the hardest to compare, as the SLC is couched in terms of metres of train to or from Waterloo in each of the peak hours, not (like everything else) seats. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: TonyK on March 27, 2017, 17:08:54 I think this point gets overworked, the people at the coalface won't change, it shouldn't really be too difficult to just leave everything as planned by NR and the present operations staff. It isn't as if they all walk out the door on handover day is it? The first ;D noticeable (e.g. timetable) changes surely won't be until December? Paul It was the longer term I was concerned with rather than first week of September. It will take a while for new name badges all round. Currently, the 0851 from BRI waits at Salisbury to wait for the EXD to WAT to join onto the rear. Having looked at things, I can't find any reason why this arrangement would change. Apart from anything else, that train provides a local service to Keynsham, and stations from Bath to Westbury. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: eightf48544 on March 27, 2017, 17:14:39 It still doesn't answer the Wolmar question.
"What is franchising for?" Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: grahame on March 27, 2017, 17:15:14 Quoting the whole statement from [here] (http://otp.investis.com/generic/regulatory-story.aspx?newsid=857157&cid=858) in case it disappears in time and we want a reference back. I've tried to make this scrollable ...
Code: Statement re South Western rail franchise award ... and from a preview look like I've succeed! Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: ChrisB on March 27, 2017, 17:20:16 Yep - but can you change the font please? It's pretty hard to read.
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: grahame on March 27, 2017, 17:42:12 Yep - but can you change the font please? It's pretty hard to read. Please feel free to quote it in a better scrolled way, Chris, and I'll delete the original post. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: JayMac on March 27, 2017, 17:50:11 It's pretty hard to read. Device dependent. Readable on a PC monitor and Android tablet. Readable with pinch and zoom on an Android smartphone. No idea what it's like on Apple products. ;) Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: TonyK on March 27, 2017, 18:02:15 You could click the hyperlink, ChrisB, and read the original in all its glory. I like what grahame has done here, which preserves the original for posterity.
No idea what it's like on Apple products. ;) I was eating one while I read. Apart from the bits about "core", it added little to the experience. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: teamsaint on March 27, 2017, 18:13:50 Can anybody tell from what has been released, if the service pattern for the Salisbury /Romsey/Romsey via Southampton route will likely remain the same, IE 1 TPH ?
Although the PR for the new franchise all sounds great, I'd have to say that in general SWT run a reasonably efficient network in my fairly limited experience. Bit behind the times on things like charging points, and my biggest grumble would be lack of carriages on the first couple of off peak services into London, and similarly on some evening services, although evening crowding issues usually disappear after Woking. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: John R on March 27, 2017, 18:18:44 I think it's safe to assume that it would have been mentioned if there was any increase in frequency on that route.
Maybe an opportunity given the franchise owners will be the same (for a couple of years, anyway) to accelerate the TransWilts expansion by linking the two services? Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: Chris from Nailsea on March 27, 2017, 18:20:19 Here is a hopefully clearer version of the text:
Quote Statement re South Western rail franchise award Released: 27.03.2017 FirstGroup and MTR welcome South Western rail franchise award FirstGroup plc and MTR Corporation Limited welcome today's announcement by the Department for Transport ('DfT') of its intention to award the new South Western rail franchise to our 70:30 joint venture First MTR South Western Trains Limited (the 'Franchise Operator'). The new franchise will operate from 20 August 2017 until at least August 2024. Over the course of the franchise, £1.2bn will be invested to raise the quality of every aspect of train journeys on the South Western network. We are giving customers and community groups a say in setting priorities for that investment by focusing on the following areas, based on their feedback: State of the art trains: We will introduce 750 new, spacious train carriages for the Windsor, Reading and London Suburban routes by December 2020, as well as 18 additional, fully refurbished trains (90 carriages) on the London-Portsmouth route from December 2018. We shall deliver 52,000 more peak seats per day at London Waterloo compared to today's services by December 2020. The rest of our mainland fleet will be refreshed and will have free, more reliable Wi-Fi, at-seat charging points and free infotainment as well as real time travel and connection information screens. Additional and faster services: From December 2018 our plans will deliver faster journey times to stations including Hounslow, Reading, Southampton, Bournemouth, Weymouth, Portsmouth and Salisbury; double the service to both Reading and Windsor throughout the day; double the off-peak service between Southampton and Portsmouth and re-introduce through services between Portsmouth, Southampton, Bournemouth and Weymouth to aid regional connectivity. We will also significantly improve weekend services with more than 400 extra Sunday trains across the network. Easier tickets and fares: We will introduce simpler fares with mobile and smart ticketing. These will include flexible season tickets and new lower fares for 16-18 year olds, recognising the importance of accessible rail travel. Claiming compensation will also be made simpler with the introduction of an easy-to-use 'delay repay' scheme for the first time on the network. Our new passenger app will be a key gateway to all travel options throughout the region. Station improvement: £90m will be invested in our stations, including a major refurbishment at Southampton Central station. Car parks will be extended at key locations with at least 1,500 extra spaces and new electric vehicle charging points. We will use station buildings to host community projects and independent retailers. Passengers will also benefit from this summer's London Waterloo platform extension project that is scheduled for completion within days of the start of the new franchise. Further capacity at Waterloo will be introduced at the end of 2018 when the former Waterloo International platforms are fully redeveloped and brought back into use. People and communities: An important objective is to increase engagement with customers, employees, local authorities and community groups to give them a real stake in the future of rail travel in their area. We will launch a £2.6m annual fund to support community projects across the franchise from April 2020. Connections between other local rail and bus services will deliver genuine joined up journeys, and we plan to introduce the biggest rail operator apprenticeship scheme in Britain. Commenting on today's announcement, Secretary of State for Transport Chris Grayling said: "This is great news for rail passengers. FirstGroup and MTR will deliver the improvements that people tell us they want right across the South Western franchise area, from Southampton and Portsmouth, to Bristol and Exeter, to Reading, Windsor and London. "We are delivering the biggest rail modernisation programme for over a century and this franchise will deliver real changes for passengers, who can look forward to modern trains, faster journeys and a more reliable service." FirstGroup Chief Executive Tim O'Toole said: "We are delighted that our partnership with MTR has been selected by the DfT to run the South Western rail franchise, a key part of the country's railway network which millions of people rely on every day. Our successful bid will deliver the tangible improvements that customers and stakeholders have told us they want from this franchise. Passengers can look forward to new and better trains, more seats and services, quicker journey times, improved stations and more flexible fare options." Jeremy Long, CEO - European Business, MTR Corporation said: "MTR is known across the world for the excellent quality of its rail services, and we look forward to working with FirstGroup to provide a best-in-class travel experience for passengers in London and the South West. Together we will deliver a major programme of upgrades, including improvements to both rail services and customer experience, for passengers travelling across the South Western network." Key franchise terms The new franchise will start on 20 August 2017 and is planned to run for a core period of seven years, with an extension option of up to eleven months at the DfT's discretion. Under the contract, the Franchise Operator will deliver £2.6bn real NPV* in premium payments to the Government over the core period. The JV shareholders will provide a loan of up to £30m, and £88m (of which 50% is bonded) in subordinated contingent loan facilities to the Franchise Operator, as well as a £15m performance bond and a season ticket bond of up to £80m. The franchise terms include GDP and Central London Employment revenue protection mechanisms to mitigate the financial impact of exogenous economic factors outside the control of the Franchise Operator, and a profit sharing arrangement whereby a proportion of profit in excess of pre-specified thresholds will be payable to the DfT. The franchise will benefit from investment of £1.2bn, primarily during the first four years of the franchise, leading to enhanced customer experience and passenger capacity. Approximately £80m of investment will be directly funded by the Franchise Operator. Franchise passenger revenues, which were £991m in 2015/16, are expected to increase from the additional capacity created. FirstGroup expects to achieve margins comparable with the recent overall industry average and to earn an appropriate return over the life of the contract, reflecting the franchise risk profile. FirstGroup expects a working capital inflow of approximately £100m principally relating to season ticket monies, to be treated as restricted cash. The franchise award is subject to the customary 'standstill period' of ten days, after which formal contracts will be signed by the DfT. As with other UK rail franchise awards, the Competition and Markets Authority is also required by law to carry out a 'phase one review'. * Net present value of forecast premium payments over the seven year core franchise period, expressed in 2017/18 prices and discounted using the DfT's 'real' discount rate of 3.5%. Key benefits of the new South Western franchise: New trains - 750 new carriages for suburban services * Introduce 750 carriages by December 2020, forming 90 brand new trains primarily for London Suburban routes and Windsor/Reading lines * Average age of the entire fleet coming down by almost half by December 2020 * New fleet will provide over 46% more peak capacity for our customers than today's trains on the Windsor, Reading and London Suburban routes * Enhanced travelling experience for customers - free reliable Wi-Fi, at-seat charging points, air conditioning, toilets, wide gangways and wide doors to improve ease of boarding and alighting Improved carriages - 90 for Portsmouth fast services / comfortable seating on all fast services * 18 trains / 90 carriages refurbished to 'as new' for Portsmouth to London services by December 2018 * Comfortable 'two plus two' seating on all Portsmouth fast trains to London by December 2018 More seats - 22,000 extra morning peak seats into Waterloo and 30,000 in evening peak from Waterloo * Boosting peak seats each weekday by around 30% by December 2020 Increased frequency, better weekend services and quicker journeys from December 2018 * Mainline journey times reduced, including Weymouth-London and Poole-London journey times reduced by up to 14 minutes; Bournemouth-London reduced by up to nine minutes and Southampton Central-London reduced by up to eight minutes. Trips from Portsmouth will be quicker with an average five minutes cut from fast journeys and up to seven minutes from slower trips * Better connectivity on the South Coast, with four trains an hour between London and Portsmouth, direct service along the South Coast connecting communities from Portsmouth to Weymouth, and a second hourly semi-fast service between Portsmouth and Southampton * Sunday afternoon services will match weekdays on most routes for the first time from 2018 with almost 400 more services; number of fast trains to Portsmouth will double on Sunday afternoons. West of England will see two trains per hour earlier on a Sunday than currently and we will speed up Weymouth services by deploying a standard weekday stopping pattern * Double the number of trains each hour to Reading and Windsor from two to four - Reading will see two semi-fast and two stopping services every hour and Windsor will receive two extra semi-fast services via Hounslow * We will improve late evening frequencies and later last trains across the network Free and fast Wi-Fi on trains and stations * Free Wi-Fi both on-board mainland trains and at stations, with up to five times greater bandwidth than today * Introduce free infotainment to many of our mainland trains by December 2018, making films, catch-up TV, newspapers and magazines available - and full coverage of our mainland fleet by December 2020 Real-time information on all trains ensuring customers have a smooth and rapid, door-to-door journey * Live updates to passenger information screens on all our mainland trains Charging points accessible from every seat for all our mainland trains * Our new suburban trains, introduced by December 2020, will all have charging points * We will introduce charging points on all other mainland trains - Class 442s, Class 444s and 450s by December 2018, Class 158s and 159s by December 2020 New innovative customer app * New customer app will make it the primary source of travel advice for our customers making it easier to use our trains, pointing customers towards less busy trains or less busy coaches within trains Mobile ticketing and new smartcards * Mobile phone barcode tickets will be available on the network for the first time, covering a wide range of journeys * We will implement our smartcard scheme across the franchise including pay-as-you-go functionality * We will offer flexible season products Automatic Delay Repay * We will bring in Delay Repay for the first time, making it simple and easy for our customers to claim for late trains with a fully automated process offered to those buying season and advance tickets direct on smartcards £90m station investment * £90m station investment programme, including the refurbishment of Southampton Central * At least 1,500 new car parking spaces across the network and 60 electric vehicle charging points at stations * New stations: we will work with stakeholders to progress plans for new stations such as Park Barn, Merrow and Wilton Parkway and others during the franchise Working with the Isle of Wight community to develop proposals for Island Line's future * We will engage with the Isle of Wight community to develop plans to secure a more sustainable Island Line * Proposal to be submitted to Government with Island support * Annual £50,000 Customer and Communities Improvement Fund for Island Line More than 100 apprenticeships each year * We plan to introduce the biggest rail operator apprenticeship scheme in Britain - we will launch our apprenticeship programme from franchise start on a wide range of courses Customer and Communities Improvement Fund * £2.6m annual fund for community projects across the franchise to be launched from April 2020 Investor information A conference call for investors and analysts will be held at 8:30am today. Please call +44 (0) 20 7725 3354 in advance of the call to register and receive joining details. A presentation pack together with a pdf copy of this announcement and a playback facility will be available at www.firstgroupplc.com/investors. Contacts at FirstGroup: Faisal Tabbah, Head of Investor Relations Stuart Butchers, Group Head of Media Tel: +44 (0) 20 7725 3354 Michael Harrison / Andrew Porter, Brunswick PR Tel: +44 (0) 20 7404 5959 Contacts at MTR: Nick Collins, MHP Communications nick.collins@mhpc.com +44 (0) 7824 462 091 Notes Figures presented in this announcement are not audited. Certain statements included or incorporated by reference within this announcement may constitute 'forward-looking statements' with respect to the business, strategy and plans of FirstGroup and our current goals, assumptions and expectations relating to our future financial condition, performance and results. By their nature, forward-looking statements involve known and unknown risks, assumptions, uncertainties and other factors which may cause actual results, performance or achievements of FirstGroup to be materially different from any future results, performance or achievements expressed or implied by such forward-looking statements. Shareholders are cautioned not to place undue reliance on the forward-looking statements. Except as required by the UK Listing Rules and applicable law, FirstGroup does not undertake any obligation to update or change any forward-looking statements to reflect events occurring after the date of this announcement. About FirstGroup FirstGroup plc (LSE: FGP.L) is a leading transport operator in the UK and North America. With £5.2 billion in revenues and 110,000 employees, we transported around 2.2 billion passengers last year. Each of our five divisions is a leader in its field: In North America, First Student is the largest provider of student transportation with a fleet of around 47,000 yellow school buses, First Transit is one of the largest providers of outsourced transit management and contracting services, while Greyhound is the only nationwide operator of scheduled intercity coach services. In the UK, FirstGroup is one of Britain's largest bus operators running a fleet of some 6,200 buses, and we are one of the country's most experienced passenger rail operators, carrying around 140 million passengers last year. Our vision is to provide solutions for an increasingly congested world... keeping people moving and communities prospering. Visit our website at www.firstgroupplc.com and follow us @firstgroupplc on Twitter. About MTR Corporation MTR Corporation is headquartered in Hong Kong and is acknowledged as one of the world's leading operators of metro, commuter, inter-city and airport rail systems with rail operations in Hong Kong, China, Australia, Sweden and the UK. It is also a property developer, and manages shopping malls, retail units, apartments and other major buildings along some of its lines. In the UK, MTR is the operator of the Elizabeth Line concession (the name for the Crossrail route), and currently runs TfL Rail services between Liverpool Street and Shenfield. MTR was a joint venture partner in London Overground Rail Operations Ltd (LOROL) between November 2007 and November 2016. Listed on the Hong Kong stock exchange, MTR has a market capitalisation of approximately £22.3 billion, and is included on the FTSE4Good and Dow Jones Sustainability Indexes. It won over 50 awards in 2016 for quality, customer service and sustainability. I do hope this helps. ::) CfN. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: grahame on March 27, 2017, 18:23:26 Can anybody tell from what has been released, if the service pattern for the Salisbury /Romsey/Romsey via Southampton route will likely remain the same, IE 1 TPH ? The franchise bid document requests a quotation for that current service, so from Salisbury you should have 1. An hourly Salisbury - Romsey - Southampton - Eastleigh - Romsey service calling all stations 2. An hourly Salisbury - Romsey - Southampton express (part of Cardiff to Portsmouth within the GWR franchise) 3. About 5 additional GWR franchise Salisbury - Romsey - Southampton services from Westbury or beyond, one on to Brighton Suggestions of significant changes to other services at they thread their way through the congested Southampton area could lead to some retimings, and it would be nice to do something with the dwell at Salisbury which is probably much more than is really needed. You need a short reversal at Romsey to avoid blocking the through lines. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: teamsaint on March 27, 2017, 18:36:49 Thanks Grahame, much appreciated.
Of course I knew all that stuff about the short reversal at Romsey. ( Whistleysmiley thing). In response to John R above, I was really concerned that the service shouldn't be cut. 1TPH is perfectly reasonable for Dean, Dunbridge etc, I would say. Some of the timings of services from Salisbury and north do seem odd to me, but I am a rank amateur in these matters, and my usual journeys are to Southampton area or London/Basingstoke. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: jdw.wor on March 27, 2017, 18:47:09 Have I missed it or is there no mention of Gatwick-Reading improvements ? Additionally I think the line would sit far better in South Western franchise, though I appreciate the diesel/electric issues
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: jdw.wor on March 27, 2017, 18:57:48 I have just re-read my last post and realize it makes little sense. What I meant to say was "Unsurprisingly there is no mention of Gatwick- Reading services but wouldn't this route be better in South Western franchise"? Again aware of diesel/electric issues. That makes more sense!!
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: grahame on March 27, 2017, 19:08:56 Some of the timings of services from Salisbury and north do seem odd to me ... They were described to me by an official as "bizarre and perverse" ... wording that has stuck in my mind, and as the timings haven't changed much since that comment was made, so they still apply. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: grahame on March 27, 2017, 19:28:16 Device dependent. Readable on a PC monitor and Android tablet. Readable with pinch and zoom on an Android smartphone. No idea what it's like on Apple products. ;) Fine on my Apple stuff - viewed there in preview before I even posted! Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: teamsaint on March 27, 2017, 19:32:14 Some of the timings of services from Salisbury and north do seem odd to me ... They were described to me by an official as "bizarre and perverse" ... wording that has stuck in my mind, and as the timings haven't changed much since that comment was made, so they still apply. In particular, the gap between the 07.19 from Salisbury to Bristol TM, and the next train at 08.30 . Sorry, probably a bit OT. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: grahame on March 27, 2017, 19:53:43 In particular, the gap between the 07.19 from Salisbury to Bristol TM, and the next train at 08.30 . Sorry, probably a bit OT. Don't worry too much about being off topic occasionally ... we have some excellent folks around who do an excellent job of capturing valuable nuggets into appropriate threads. So you would like something to head north at - say - 07:20, 07:40, 08:20, 08:40 ... Rush hour patterns tend to get a bit distorted as almost every train is tuned to take a peak load into a big city for the working day, and other services not headed in that part of their cycle to an employment hot spot tend to be "153"ed or reduce to even shorter that a 153 (i.e. zero carriages) even if they leave a timetable gap. Look at poor Newquay! Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: John R on March 27, 2017, 20:11:55 In response to John R above, I was really concerned that the service shouldn't be cut. 1TPH is perfectly reasonable for Dean, Dunbridge etc, I would say. Ah, well in that case I must caveat my response. I don't think you could assume by the lack of mention that a service hadn't been cut, as it's common practice to let negative changes be missed from headline announcements and for them to be found buried in the detail, if at all. Though given Grahame's listing of the franchise bid document for the line, that appears highly unlikely in this case. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: teamsaint on March 27, 2017, 21:19:17 In particular, the gap between the 07.19 from Salisbury to Bristol TM, and the next train at 08.30 . Sorry, probably a bit OT. Don't worry too much about being off topic occasionally ... we have some excellent folks around who do an excellent job of capturing valuable nuggets into appropriate threads. So you would like something to head north at - say - 07:20, 07:40, 08:20, 08:40 ... Rush hour patterns tend to get a bit distorted as almost every train is tuned to take a peak load into a big city for the working day, and other services not headed in that part of their cycle to an employment hot spot tend to be "153"ed or reduce to even shorter that a 153 (i.e. zero carriages) even if they leave a timetable gap. Look at poor Newquay! It just seems odd that the longest gap of the day between services is pretty much during the rush hour peak. For the rest of the day there is a train at 40 minutes past the hour from Salisbury. I can see that if you commute daily to Temple Meads, that the 7.20 gets you there in time for a 9.00 start, but a 7.40 would seem to make sense,even if it would get into Bristol ( just)after 9.00 and the pattern you suggest would look about right. However,I suppose that most people commuting into Bristol in fact pick up from Westbury and beyond,where there are additional services, so perhaps it makes sense overall. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: bobm on March 27, 2017, 22:33:34 Look at poor Newquay! Indeed. The Newquay branch is certainly not a commuter line. First departure from Newquay on weekdays is after 10am. In fact in Summer the first train on a Sunday is actually earlier than weekdays (but not by much)! Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: devonexpress on March 27, 2017, 23:04:03 First Group & MTR have been announced as the winners of the South Western Franchise by the DFT. So what can we expect.
First seems to have gone with the name "South Western Railway" linking to that of the pre-big four "London South Western Railway", is it likely we will see another green livery out, and with that what can we expect from the franchise? Myself I would like to see the following. *Better seats in First Class(the current ones are hard and uncomfortable compared to GWR). *Better catering options on-board *A much more positive attitude from staff, (as I have found a few staff to have it drilled into them about checking tickets, and treating everyone as a fare evader.) *The possibility of extending Exeter services to Okehampton(unlikely, but maybe could work early morning departure, late return?) *Return of named services(maybe First will axe the ACE from GWR and return it to SWR) *More seats on the Class 158/159, such as in use by Arriva Wales(I think this is highly likely given how busy the Exeter to Waterloo route is) Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: ChrisB on March 28, 2017, 05:22:48 Was reading on aPC minitor and obviously these differ, BNM.
However, yes easily read on an iphone, although left/right scrolling required I don't tell lies for the sake of it, BNM, if I found it hard to read, I found it very difficult. Your view may (& obviously does, vary Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: grahame on March 28, 2017, 06:49:07 You could click the hyperlink, ChrisB, and read the original in all its glory. I like what grahame has done here, which preserves the original for posterity. No idea what it's like on Apple products. ;) I was eating one while I read. Apart from the bits about "core", it added little to the experience. Thank you. The point of asking "how is this for you" to people was to find how it is for them, as I've not done a major quote like this before. It worked for me and for others, but clearly not for everyone. There are times I find it very hard to read big blocks of text - be it because of volume, font or layout - and if important I tend to copy and paste into a tool such as a LibreOffice or even a terminal window editor such as vi to then have better control over the content without distraction by the presentation. Thanks to CfN for providing the alternative. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: grahame on March 28, 2017, 07:06:55 It just seems odd that the longest gap of the day between services is pretty much during the rush hour peak. For the rest of the day there is a train at 40 minutes past the hour from Salisbury. I can see that if you commute daily to Temple Meads, that the 7.20 gets you there in time for a 9.00 start, but a 7.40 would seem to make sense,even if it would get into Bristol ( just)after 9.00 and the pattern you suggest would look about right. However,I suppose that most people commuting into Bristol in fact pick up from Westbury and beyond,where there are additional services, so perhaps it makes sense overall. Early in the day, the Portsmouth - Cardiff service is distorted for different traffic flows, with additional stops at stations normally skipped and with arrivals into Bristol from as far out as Warminster every 20 minutes until just before 9 a.m. then (yes) a 70 minute gap. Commutes to Trowbridge - where a lot of people work seem to be more luck that judgement, with services from Salisbury and Warminster, and from Swindon and Chippenham, having unfortunate gaps for the inbound commuter to that town. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: Bob_Blakey on March 28, 2017, 08:12:55 Couldn't find any specific mention in the FG/MTR statement, so I hope that the new franchise holder will reinstate proper seat reservations on the WoE services in preference to the bluddy 'train' reservations so beloved of Stagecoach SWT.
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: ChrisB on March 28, 2017, 08:36:49 It's very hard to spot just what is being promised that's not required in the SLC, as almost all of it is. I would expect the SLC to get updated from what appears in the ITT to contain most if not all of what's contained in the winning bid just so that the TOC can't easily go back on its word. So no surprise that the visible SLC contains what's promised in the bid Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: IndustryInsider on March 28, 2017, 08:46:38 Couldn't find any specific mention in the FG/MTR statement, so I hope that the new franchise holder will reinstate proper seat reservations on the WoE services in preference to the bluddy 'train' reservations so beloved of Stagecoach SWT. Barry Doe is a big fan of a reservation for a train, not a specific seat. I'll be interested to hear his views as he's always been very reluctant to criticise SWT, (and usually praises GWR) but quick to criticise certain operators who others generally consider do an ok job like Chiltern and SouthEastern. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: ChrisB on March 28, 2017, 09:01:08 Many think he's wrong on that point, as a seat is preferable to a standing space should the train be busy before your joining point....
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: LiskeardRich on March 28, 2017, 09:58:21 Look at poor Newquay! Indeed. The Newquay branch is certainly not a commuter line. First departure from Newquay on weekdays is after 10am. In fact in Summer the first train on a Sunday is actually earlier than weekdays (but not by much)! The Newquay branch is too slow, and Par isn't exactly where anyone wants to go, so an onward connection required. The bus from Newquay to Truro (lets face it the destination for more commutes) takes 50 mins on the fastest route, an hour on the medium route, and 90 mins via perranporth. All quicker than the Newquay branch to par and then onwards to Truro. Regarding First winning SWT this could be good for Okehampton. First know Okehampton, take a single 158/159 off at Exeter and run through to Okehampton, with an incoming service joins up In place of the one taken off, maybe 2 or 3 hourly? No reversals required, Okehampton get their wishes fairly easy. Or even a through to Barnstaple a couple of times a day? Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: LiskeardRich on March 28, 2017, 10:01:23 You could click the hyperlink, ChrisB, and read the original in all its glory. I like what grahame has done here, which preserves the original for posterity. No idea what it's like on Apple products. ;) I was eating one while I read. Apart from the bits about "core", it added little to the experience. Thank you. The point of asking "how is this for you" to people was to find how it is for them, as I've not done a major quote like this before. It worked for me and for others, but clearly not for everyone. There are times I find it very hard to read big blocks of text - be it because of volume, font or layout - and if important I tend to copy and paste into a tool such as a LibreOffice or even a terminal window editor such as vi to then have better control over the content without distraction by the presentation. Thanks to CfN for providing the alternative. Your way of quoting I found better on iPhone, I found it hard reading the full normal quote style. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: ChrisB on March 28, 2017, 10:05:02 Or even a through to Barnstaple a couple of times a day? 'Competition' won't be allowed between franchises held by the same operator, I suspect. GWR are the operator for Barnstaple Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: stuving on March 28, 2017, 10:07:19 It's very hard to spot just what is being promised that's not required in the SLC, as almost all of it is. I would expect the SLC to get updated from what appears in the ITT to contain most if not all of what's contained in the winning bid just so that the TOC can't easily go back on its word. So no surprise that the visible SLC contains what's promised in the bid Presumably that's true - they have committed themselves to these extra items. But I was comparing with the SLC as issued with the ITT - and in any case that is still what's on DfT's site. If that is revised in the same format it would certainly be easier to spot the extras. Incidentally, the full SLC is required from December 2018, with one exception - the new faster journey times for some trains on most lines (due December 2020). That date may not apply to some extra promises, of course, and if they need new stock not yet ordered only a later date might be possible. Other than that, all stock required must exist or be due from production contracts already made. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: devonexpress on March 28, 2017, 17:24:21 The Newquay branch is too slow, and Par isn't exactly where anyone wants to go, so an onward connection required. The bus from Newquay to Truro (lets face it the destination for more commutes) takes 50 mins on the fastest route, an hour on the medium route, and 90 mins via perranporth. All quicker than the Newquay branch to par and then onwards to Truro. Regarding First winning SWT this could be good for Okehampton. First know Okehampton, take a single 158/159 off at Exeter and run through to Okehampton, with an incoming service joins up In place of the one taken off, maybe 2 or 3 hourly? No reversals required, Okehampton get their wishes fairly easy. Or even a through to Barnstaple a couple of times a day? I would expect to see some sort of thing happen around the Devon area, given that First operate the Exeter depot, it could allow for a 159 or 158 to be stationed their for Okehampton to Axminster workings? Edit by FT, N! to correct attribution oof quote Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: 4064ReadingAbbey on March 28, 2017, 19:54:24 It's pretty hard to read. Device dependent. Readable on a PC monitor and Android tablet. Readable with pinch and zoom on an Android smartphone. No idea what it's like on Apple products. ;) Easily readable on my MacBook Pro with the Retina display. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: 4064ReadingAbbey on March 28, 2017, 20:14:14 One subject that has not been broached is that of train reliability. Over the last few years the train fleets used by South West Trains have had exceptionally good reliability as demonstrated in the annual 'Golden Spanners' awards run by Roger Ford of Modern Railways based on internal industry statistics. Commonly SWT had half or more of the ten most reliable fleets in the country - including the most reliable trains in the country, the 25 year old Class 158 and 159 diesel trains maintained by Salisbury depot.
This achievement did not happen by accident - SWT identified the issues that would happen if trains regularly sat down across the Waterloo throat in the rush hours and Christian Roth drove through the changes in the maintenance departments which made it possible. Mr Roth left SWT a few weeks ago. The reliability of First Group's trains are, at best, average. Admittedly GWR has some quite old stock but Roth has shown what can be done. For example, the Class 165 and 166 trains are newer than SWT's diesels, the maintenance depot is similarly located close to a major traffic node, yet their published miles per technical incident is a factor 10 or more lower. I hope that First Group can maintain SWT's standards - but it is a hard act to follow. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: devonexpress on March 29, 2017, 18:59:15 One subject that has not been broached is that of train reliability. Over the last few years the train fleets used by South West Trains have had exceptionally good reliability as demonstrated in the annual 'Golden Spanners' awards run by Roger Ford of Modern Railways based on internal industry statistics. Commonly SWT had half or more of the ten most reliable fleets in the country - including the most reliable trains in the country, the 25 year old Class 158 and 159 diesel trains maintained by Salisbury depot. This achievement did not happen by accident - SWT identified the issues that would happen if trains regularly sat down across the Waterloo throat in the rush hours and Christian Roth drove through the changes in the maintenance departments which made it possible. Mr Roth left SWT a few weeks ago. The reliability of First Group's trains are, at best, average. Admittedly GWR has some quite old stock but Roth has shown what can be done. For example, the Class 165 and 166 trains are newer than SWT's diesels, the maintenance depot is similarly located close to a major traffic node, yet their published miles per technical incident is a factor 10 or more lower. I hope that First Group can maintain SWT's standards - but it is a hard act to follow. Im sorry to be blut, but this is really a load of rubbish. I'm getting sick of hearing about dear old Stagecoach compared to First, and how SWT will be missed. Whilst yes the 158/159s are very reliable, SWT performance for punctuality is poor. I used to hate commuting with them waiting around on a cold station platform, with a shelter smaller than a bus stop. Whilst SWT was good at keeping rail enthusiast happy and just general running trains, when it gets to the nitty gritty stuff, I would put them in the bottom 3 of train companies. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: PhilWakely on March 29, 2017, 19:15:05 Im sorry to be blunt, but this is really a load of rubbish. I'm getting sick of hearing about dear old Stagecoach compared to First, and how SWT will be missed. Whilst yes the 158/159s are very reliable, SWT performance for punctuality is poor. I used to hate commuting with them waiting around on a cold station platform, with a shelter smaller than a bus stop. Whilst SWT was good at keeping rail enthusiast happy and just general running trains, when it gets to the nitty gritty stuff, I would put them in the bottom 3 of train companies. To be fair, the vast majority of punctuality problems on the SWT West of England line are down to infrastructure problems beyond the control of SWT. My gripe with SWT, though, is that I cannot recall any day recently when catering between EXD and WAT has not been reduced due to staffing problems. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: stuving on March 30, 2017, 13:43:03 Paul Clifton was just saying on South Today that the new franchise will be not only buying new trains - lots of them - but discarding much of the existing SWT fleet: meaning 458s, what looked like 455s, and even those 30 brand new 707s.
What that means in further ramifications I don't know - it would depend on what ROSCOs' contracts say about it, I guess. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: devonexpress on March 30, 2017, 15:00:00 Paul Clifton was just saying on South Today that the new franchise will be not only buying new trains - lots of them - but discarding much of the existing SWT fleet: meaning 458s, what looked like 455s, and even those 30 brand new 707s. What that means in further ramifications I don't know - it would depend on what ROSCOs' contracts say about it, I guess. Doesn't say anything about that of First Group website, fake news or another person spreading rumors?? Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: LiskeardRich on March 30, 2017, 15:06:06 It'll be rumours.
The only rolling stock news officially confirmed is the 442s coming out of storage. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: 4064ReadingAbbey on March 30, 2017, 17:21:52 One subject that has not been broached is that of train reliability. Over the last few years the train fleets used by South West Trains have had exceptionally good reliability as demonstrated in the annual 'Golden Spanners' awards run by Roger Ford of Modern Railways based on internal industry statistics. Commonly SWT had half or more of the ten most reliable fleets in the country - including the most reliable trains in the country, the 25 year old Class 158 and 159 diesel trains maintained by Salisbury depot. This achievement did not happen by accident - SWT identified the issues that would happen if trains regularly sat down across the Waterloo throat in the rush hours and Christian Roth drove through the changes in the maintenance departments which made it possible. Mr Roth left SWT a few weeks ago. The reliability of First Group's trains are, at best, average. Admittedly GWR has some quite old stock but Roth has shown what can be done. For example, the Class 165 and 166 trains are newer than SWT's diesels, the maintenance depot is similarly located close to a major traffic node, yet their published miles per technical incident is a factor 10 or more lower. I hope that First Group can maintain SWT's standards - but it is a hard act to follow. Im sorry to be blut, but this is really a load of rubbish. I'm getting sick of hearing about dear old Stagecoach compared to First, and how SWT will be missed. Whilst yes the 158/159s are very reliable, SWT performance for punctuality is poor. I used to hate commuting with them waiting around on a cold station platform, with a shelter smaller than a bus stop. Whilst SWT was good at keeping rail enthusiast happy and just general running trains, when it gets to the nitty gritty stuff, I would put them in the bottom 3 of train companies. The data are not rubbish - they are collected on a consistent basis across all TOCs and reflect the engineering performance of the trains. You may be assured that they are accurate. You are referring to operating performance which is a different matter and does not affect what I wrote. Do not conflate the two - although if the fleet performance was worse than it is you would have had even more grounds for complaint. Data from the Refocus programme were published in the January edition of Modern Railways. The data to which I referred show that the Miles per Technical Incident (MTIN) for SWT's fleet of Class 159/0 dmus achieved a Moving Annual Average value of 246,099 up to Period 7 of 2016. (A Technical Incident is something that happens that shouldn't which delays a train by 3 or more minutes - delays are captured automatically by the TRUST system). On the other hand GWR's fleet of Class 166 trains, which are newer, achieved a MAA MTIN figure of 9,153 miles. In other words the SWT fleet is 26 time more reliable than First's fleet although both have air conditioning, both have power doors and both have a maintenance depot right beside an operating node. Of the seven fleets across the country which exceed 90,000 MTIN, FIVE are operated by SWT. I wonder if train reliability was an entry in the DfT's spreadsheet? Be careful what you wish for... Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: IndustryInsider on March 30, 2017, 17:27:23 SWT does indeed have some impressive reliability stats. What they've done with their 15x is very impressive. It's fair to say that the reliability stats do fluctuate wildly between data releases, especially within the diesel fleets.
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: paul7575 on March 30, 2017, 17:49:39 Doesn't say anything about that of First Group website, fake news or another person spreading rumors?? 90 new trains consisting of 750 new carriages is on the First Group website. The 18 x 5 car 442s is believed to be another separate 90 carriages. http://www.firstgroupplc.com/about-firstgroup/uk-rail/improving-south-western-railway.aspx You cannot possibly add that many trains to the existing fleet, there would be no paths to run them in, so it figures that a big chunk of the existing fleet really must be leaving the franchise. I wouldn't like to propose which exact trains, but the 455s and 456s (approx 400 carriages) have been assumed to be on the way out for many months now, the hints are all there in the ITT. It is where they put the other 350 new vehicles that seems to be the debatable point. Paul Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: stuving on March 30, 2017, 19:53:18 The BBC TV report devoted most agitation to the fact that the trains mentioned were new or had been done up recently. That's not just new seat covers either - some of the 458s had their bodies hacked about, and the 455s have been retractioned.
I can't see how, as Paul Clifton put it, "Who's going to pay? We are." It was Porterbrook that paid £40M for the modern motors and IGBTs for the 455s, and I wonder whether they negotiated some form of guarantee. If not, it's a lot of money to lay out so close to the end of the franchise and so, presumably, their lease. Of course they may now go up the desirability scale and push some other units towards the breakers'. For older trains not showered with goodies I can see no reason to pity the ROSCOs at all. They bought all their initial stock at prices that were nowhere near their lease value based on their remaining life, even if they have had to hold their lease prices down a bit to avoid press and parliamentary flak. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: John R on March 30, 2017, 21:20:23 If nothing else, it will make the ROSCO's much more cautious in future about any investment where there isn't a guaranteed future use for the stock. SO either they won't be willing to commit to any investment (what I would call mid-franchise paralysis), or they will price on a worst case scenario, which will probably make any enhancement unaffordable.
It can't be good for the industry that brand new stock is being left in the sidings. Maybe Vivarail can think of a use for them. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: Surrey 455 on March 30, 2017, 21:44:39 I have to ask about these new trains that First are talking about. How many of them were previously announced by Stagecoach SWT?
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: John R on March 30, 2017, 22:00:00 I have to ask about these new trains that First are talking about. How many of them were previously announced by Stagecoach SWT? I think that's the point. They appear to be ditching all the new stock that Stagecoach have been responsible for, including the 707's which have yet to turn a wheel in service and the heavily reengineered 458s. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: ellendune on March 30, 2017, 22:07:23 So are we now saying there will be a surplus of electric stock? Presumable the newer stuff can also work 25kV as well.
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: stuving on March 30, 2017, 22:59:08 If nothing else, it will make the ROSCO's much more cautious in future about any investment where there isn't a guaranteed future use for the stock. SO either they won't be willing to commit to any investment (what I would call mid-franchise paralysis), or they will price on a worst case scenario, which will probably make any enhancement unaffordable. It can't be good for the industry that brand new stock is being left in the sidings. Maybe Vivarail can think of a use for them. Having just watched Paul Clifton's piece again I do wonder that he can go on about new trains being cheaper to buy and finance now than than they have been, without mentioning the ROSCOs who do the borrowing and owning. TOCs may place orders, but I don't think First/MTR will making that kind of financial commitment for a 7-year franchise term. And as for trains being immediately parked in sidings - any replacements won't happen until 2020, and there's a lot of additional diagrams to fill come August. Reading and Windsor need about twice the number of trains, for starters. Do you think Angel Trains signed up to finance 30 Class 707s without noticing that the end of the franchise was so close? Of course not. There was a piece in Rail News at the time of the order than opined: Quote The trains are being built by Siemens and purchased by Angel Trains who will lease them to South West Trains or whoever is running the franchise in 2017. This is why the Government in the form of the Department for Transport (DfT) was part of the announcement as the DfT will be awarding the next franchise by 2017 when the trains are due to be delivered. It now seems that, when we do finally find out what's happening (and clearly we don't yet), DfT didn't require 707s to be leased. But Angel will have known that - or else they don't know their business. We haven't heard any announcement of what will happen to the 707s (or any others) when they do come off lease. That doesn't mean that nothing is being arranged! Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: Richard Fairhurst on March 30, 2017, 23:05:14 I do wonder - without any supporting evidence at all - whether this is just a ruse to reduce the leasing cost on the 707s, and that it'll be announced in two months' time that SWR will be taking them after all. The DfT's animus towards the ROSCOs is well known, after all.
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: paul7575 on March 30, 2017, 23:56:34 The main frequency changes to 4 tph on the Reading and Windsor services don't start till Dec 18, according to the franchise train service specification...
AIUI the timetable from handover in August until the end of next year will be as it is in May except for the part blockade in August while they rebuild platforms 1-8. Paul Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: stuving on March 31, 2017, 00:34:27 The main frequency changes to 4 tph on the Reading and Windsor services don't start till Dec 18, according to the franchise train service specification... AIUI the timetable from handover in August until the end of next year will be as it is in May except for the part blockade in August while they rebuild platforms 1-8. Paul The whole SLC timetable is December 2018. I'd thought the 4tph Reading service was expected to start earlier, but on reflection that might have been wishful thinking. But if a new fleet is ordered now, it would still presumably be about three years until it's all in service (the 707s were ordered in September 2014). And as it's at minimum a seven-year franchise, you would be almost halfway through it by then. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: stuving on March 31, 2017, 12:22:42 From the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-39445714):
This is the news item from South Today, which I was going on about yesterday, or at least contains its punchlines. Quote New trains 'dumped' by South Western franchise winner By Paul Clifton Transport correspondent, BBC South Today 30 March 2017 A rail operator is to abandon trains costing £200m which are currently being built in Germany. First MTR, which was awarded the South Western franchise on Monday, is committed to a fleet of 90 Siemens trains to increase capacity on the Reading, Windsor and London routes. It will, however, reject 150 carriages which were ordered in 2014. Instead, the operator is commissioning further new trains to replace them on a cheaper annual lease. The German trains will enter service in April and can carry an extra 8,000 commuters each day. The substituted cheaper carriages will arrive from 2019. At the same time, newly-refurbished carriages which currently run to Reading are being dumped, together with other suburban rolling stock which is currently in the middle of a full technical rebuild. Analysis: Paul Clifton, BBC South transport correspondent It's a bit like walking into a car showroom, and being offered a brand new car from the factory for less money than the identical demonstrator that is already sitting in front of you ready to go. The bottom line: hundreds of carriages worth hundreds of millions of pounds are simply being dumped. The cost of borrowing has tumbled, new manufacturers are competing for orders and production lines are already set up. That makes a new train cheaper even than one that is right now half-built. Who pays for the ones that are left behind? Ultimately we all do, through the fares we pay. The new and refurbished carriages, which can only be used on southern England's third rail system, are destined to sit on sidings indefinitely. First MTR, a partnership between First Group and Hong Kong metro firm MTR, said it could not yet be interviewed due to a non-disclosure agreement. It will take over the seven-year franchise from Stagecoach on 20 August. The Department for Transport said: "First MTR has committed to deliver 750 new carriages by the end of 2020 which will offer more space and improve journeys for passengers on the Windsor, Reading and London suburban routes. "It is for First MTR South Western to decide how it uses its trains." Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: ChrisB on March 31, 2017, 12:28:46 Looks as though the ROSCO has made boo-boo, unless they have found a new TOC to take them?
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: 4064ReadingAbbey on March 31, 2017, 12:52:57 SWT does indeed have some impressive reliability stats. What they've done with their 15x is very impressive. It's fair to say that the reliability stats do fluctuate wildly between data releases, especially within the diesel fleets. Sorry to keep harping on about this subject! Yes, the statistics can vary from period to period quite considerably so this is the reason the Moving Annual Average is used - to iron out the short term variations. Also small fleets show greater swings as the effect of one or two failures in each period is more pronounced. However looking back over the last few years, SWT is consistently ahead of the other TOCs in the matter of engineering failures. This shows consistent attention to detail. I just hope that First/MTR put as much effort into train reliability as Stagecoach has done on SWT. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: TonyK on April 02, 2017, 17:11:59 Looks as though the ROSCO has made boo-boo, unless they have found a new TOC to take them? Another TOC with third rail electrification? This could be the start of a fight-back against the leasing companies. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: ellendune on April 02, 2017, 19:03:06 Looks as though the ROSCO has made boo-boo, unless they have found a new TOC to take them? Another TOC with third rail electrification? This could be the start of a fight-back against the leasing companies. Does it have to be another TOC with third rail electrification. Are these units convertible to 25kV? Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: grahame on April 02, 2017, 19:17:46 Looks as though the ROSCO has made boo-boo, unless they have found a new TOC to take them? Another TOC with third rail electrification? This could be the start of a fight-back against the leasing companies. Does it have to be another TOC with third rail electrification. Are these units convertible to 25kV? Merseyrail is also 3rd rail, but have already ordered a new fleet as I recall? At the DfT / ACoRP meeting the week before last, Brian Freemantle (Head of Rolling Stock Policy & Contracts, Rail Executive, Passenger Services at Department for Transport.) took us through stock allocation policy and what is expected of bidders and the cascading metrics in theoretic but not specific terms. As an educated guess, there's going to be a plan somewhere to use the 707s in the future. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: Surrey 455 on April 02, 2017, 19:37:13 I'm hoping / expecting that First MTR will honour the Gold Service vouchers sent out to SWT season ticket holders. These are one day tickets that can be used anywhere on the SWT network on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays. I've made the most out of them over the last few years with day trips from Bookham to the South West, often exploring 2 or 3 towns in one day and sometimes using local buses to fill in the gaps between towns.
Although they can be used all year round, I prefer to save them for the summer when the weather is warmer and there are more daylight hours. I will still have quite a few when First take over. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: TonyK on April 02, 2017, 19:43:46 Merseyrail is also 3rd rail, but have already ordered a new fleet as I recall? At the DfT / ACoRP meeting the week before last, Brian Freemantle (Head of Rolling Stock Policy & Contracts, Rail Executive, Passenger Services at Department for Transport.) took us through stock allocation policy and what is expected of bidders and the cascading metrics in theoretic but not specific terms. As an educated guess, there's going to be a plan somewhere to use the 707s in the future. Merseyrail has indeed got new kit on order, prompting calls of outrage from the unions. As for DfT, it's about time there was a plan. This story illustrates the wastefulness of the current system. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: paul7575 on April 02, 2017, 23:24:53 Does it have to be another TOC with third rail electrification. Are these units convertible to 25kV? They are AC units like all modern EMUs, and two of them are fully fitted with pantograph and transformer etc, and they have already visited Hornsey via the Thameslink route as part of first of class trials.Making them run off AC is very straightforward, the recent BBC piece was quite misleading about this point. Paul Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: TonyK on April 03, 2017, 07:59:24 But who will want to use them when they can get the same for less money?
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: chrisr_75 on April 03, 2017, 09:47:01 Quote Instead, the operator is commissioning further new trains to replace them on a cheaper annual lease. I wonder if the operator will pass these savings on to its customers or just pocket the difference? Hmmm... Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: ChrisB on April 03, 2017, 09:53:38 Dividing sums saved by £s in farebox might give you a 1p discount
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: paul7575 on April 03, 2017, 09:57:43 But who will want to use them when they can get the same for less money? AFAICT it's only widespread posts in forums that are making the cost assumption so far. What if the new trains cost about the same but have more doors and less seats - to meet the DfT's push for shorter dwell times?Paul Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: Noggin on April 04, 2017, 22:47:43 But who will want to use them when they can get the same for less money? IIUC they were only expensive because Stagecoach had taken them on their own initiative on a 2 year lease. They are AC-capable, the first two had the AC kit for type approval, the rest weren't factory fitted with it, but it's easy enough to do that it could be done whilst the units were having the stickers changed to move franchise. I suspect that a franchisee that wanted them on a 10 year lease could get a significantly better deal. The only major issues are that they are painted bright red and have no toilets. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: grahame on April 05, 2017, 06:46:16 I suspect that a franchisee that wanted them on a 10 year lease could get a significantly better deal. The only major issues are that they are painted bright red and have no toilets. Most UK cities now have at least some electric suburban lines and I suspect that homes will be found (if not already pencilled in) somewhere between places on this list: 1. London – 9,750,500 2. Birmingham – 2,453,700 3. Manchester – 1,903,100 4. Glasgow – 1,057,600 5. Newcastle – 837,500 6. Sheffield – 818,800 7. Liverpool – 793,100 8. Leeds – 761,500 9. Bristol – 706,600 10. Belfast – 675,600 Excluding Bristol and Belfast, all the cities listed have pantograph rail services. Sheffield's tram, though, very inappropriate for class 707. Data from City Metric (http://www.citymetric.com/skylines/where-are-largest-cities-britain-1404) as part of an interesting study as to how you measure the size of a city, so that have lots of lists and rankings. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: Alan Pettitt on April 05, 2017, 21:41:16 I suppose my £10 Megatrain ticket Honiton to London is coming to an end :(
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: ChrisB on April 06, 2017, 09:43:33 Richard Clinnick from Rail has seen the new logo
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C8rKh1wVwAAYP1S.jpg) Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: Alan Pettitt on April 06, 2017, 19:52:10 I am a little bit worried about what could happen, I was living in Axminster when Southwest Trains first got the franchise, 21 years ago, I travelled on the first day, no problems, but things went a little bit downhill for a short while, they seemed to run out of drivers and other train crew for a little while. However, since then I cannot knock the SWT service on the Exeter line, I was at Salisbury last year, supposed to be a 3 car to Axminster and Exeter, got a bit busy before it left so they made it 6 car. As many of you know, when my mother became very ill a couple of years ago I moved back here to Axminster, but I still get the train several times a week from here to Salisbury and change there for Trowbridge, Bath, and Bristol, depending on the day. Many times (including Tuesday just gone) GWR reduce the number of coaches from Bristol, due to what they call "more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time" meaning that trains from Bristol in the evening peak are extremely crowded, and some people give up trying to get on the train. So far, in the past 21 years, I have never known that between Salisbury and Axminster. My wfrom orry is, that now I am back in Axminster, F(GW)R will be "borrowing" trains from LSWR to cover their rolling stock shortages and we might not get the same service. I was working in Weymouth when First took over the Wessex service, and I must admit that I was not that impressed with the way that they tried to cut the service down. This year it is 10 years, and they still say that there is a "Nationwide shortage of carriages", so how many, in this 10 years, have they ordered?
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: Noggin on April 06, 2017, 20:13:11 Richard Clinnick from Rail has seen the new logo (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C8rKh1wVwAAYP1S.jpg) I believe its a hoax, but I could be wrong. Of course it would look far better in the original LSWR green, although interestingly, the NRM's ex-LSWR M7 does feature that kind of red lead colour too. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: onthecushions on April 06, 2017, 22:58:17 I wonder whether FG might think of using HST's on the busy workings West of Salisbury and offer some of the 159's to Scotland (IIUC). I can't see the sense of making passenger trains shorter at the moment. OTC Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: JayMac on April 06, 2017, 23:52:27 I wonder whether FG might think of using HST's on the busy workings West of Salisbury and offer some of the 159's to Scotland (IIUC). Where rolling stock goes isn't really in the gift of TOCs. That's for the RoSCo's to negotiate and decide. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: ChrisB on April 07, 2017, 07:37:49 First Group do own 5 HSTs...so I guess they are able to allocate them to any franchise they run.
Otherwise, I believe that the rules for franchises rule out lending/borrowing between franchises. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: bobm on April 07, 2017, 07:39:36 Depends what your definition of lending is. GWR do hire in two SWT units a day.
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: ChrisB on April 07, 2017, 07:45:12 Richard Clinnick from Rail has seen the new logo (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C8rKh1wVwAAYP1S.jpg) I believe its a hoax, but I could be wrong. Of course it would look far better in the original LSWR green, although interestingly, the NRM's ex-LSWR M7 does feature that kind of red lead colour too. Ithink Richard Clinnick referred to seeing this on a First Facebook page. Is he right? Difficult to check from an iphone Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: ellendune on April 07, 2017, 08:07:31 A suggestion that it may be a spoof:
http://railwayeye.blogspot.co.uk/2017/04/firstmtr-brand-for-south-western-emerges.html (http://railwayeye.blogspot.co.uk/2017/04/firstmtr-brand-for-south-western-emerges.html) But no such suggestion of Richard Clinnick's twitter stream https://twitter.com/Clinnick1/status/849714168123060224/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/Clinnick1/status/849714168123060224/photo/1) Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: grahame on April 07, 2017, 08:26:00 First Group do own 5 HSTs...so I guess they are able to allocate them to any franchise they run. Otherwise, I believe that the rules for franchises rule out lending/borrowing between franchises. Depends what your definition of lending is. GWR do hire in two SWT units a day. And there are East Midlands power cars on Virgin East Coast services. FGW (as it then was) had 5 (?) Arriva Trains Wales class 150 units for a while, and I understand that Southern trains have appeared on Thameslink services, or was it Thameslink trains on Southern services. Awful lot of rule breaking going on if it's not allowed ;) Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: paul7575 on April 07, 2017, 10:14:05 Depends what your definition of lending is. GWR do hire in two SWT units a day. Only one at the moment, and it gets its own section of the Southwestern ITT as though it is formally agreed by DfT. The apparently random transfers of stock around the TOCs we used to know as Southern, Thameslink and GatEx are all under the control of the one combined "franchise" known to DfT as TSGN, and operated by GTR. Most of the shuffles go back to a programme in that franchisee's ITT and concern the introduction timescales of the DfT's Thameslink fleet, and all the knock on effects of that being late. My gut reaction is that no, GWR and the new SW franchise will not be swapping HSTs and 158 or 159s around, and especially not if they were to attempt to impact on the Scotrail plans for HSTs. Paul Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: onthecushions on April 07, 2017, 10:49:41 I think that there are 27 HST sets planned for transfer to Scotland which, with shortening could result in 95 Mark 3 trailers coming off lease (and therefore not earning for their ROSCO), going either to Long Marston or worse to C F Booth's at Rotherham. Just a few of these could cover much if not all of the Waterloo Exeter services. I don't understand the logic of crammed service trains and stored carriages - wasn't privatisation supposed to stop that? OTC Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: Richard Fairhurst on April 07, 2017, 12:09:28 I believe its a hoax, but I could be wrong. Yes, it does appear to be a Photoshop job* by someone on RailUK Forums. * well, more likely Illustrator or equivalent... Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: chrisr_75 on April 07, 2017, 13:38:35 Just a few of these could cover much if not all of the Waterloo Exeter services. Hmmm, class 50's anyone?! On a more serious note, don't forget the stock need to be OK for third rail electrics if working into Waterloo - I thought some of the HST mk3's were unable to work over third rail territory due to the bogie design? Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: bradshaw on April 07, 2017, 13:42:57 The ticket from Axminster or Crewkerne to Bristol is valid via Exeter or Salisbury. At the latter I catch the first train in rather that a specific one. Interestingly it was pointed out the during the Waterloo work tickets to London are valid via Basingstoke and Reading to Paddington; it seems that this might be true at any time not just then - but it is not advertised.
I was at a meeting in Yeovil last night; one of the speakers was Chris Loder of SWT. He was saying that the value of the 159s was flexibility to adjust to trends in loadings, adding or removing a set. Likewise the extension of some services to Yeovil Junction in the evening was set up to relieve the loadings on the Exeter trains. From this the use of fixed formation trains on this line would not be seen as advantageous. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: paul7575 on April 07, 2017, 14:11:48 On a more serious note, don't forget the stock need to be OK for third rail electrics if working into Waterloo - I thought some of the HST mk3's were unable to work over third rail territory due to the bogie design? That in itself ought not to be a problem, as they had enough suitable "short swing link" stock to run hourly services all day to places such as Plymouth and Penzance during the various diversions for Reading rebuilding.But as already said 159s and 158s are a lot more flexible in terms of splitting and joining to reflect the different loadings as services head through Salisbury. Or even to send portions of Exeter trains off to Bristol... Paul Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: onthecushions on April 07, 2017, 23:57:10 The HST's (half sized trains) that seem to be in demand at both ends of Britain might be more numerous if the stored Mark 3 DVT's were used instead of a second power car at least for the 4 trailer units. They seem very adaptable. OTC Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: The Grecian on April 08, 2017, 01:00:17 Full length HSTs wouldn't be able to keep to 159 timings west of Salisbury in any case due to slower acceleration than 159s. The HSTs might save a minute or two east of Basingrad with a 100mph linespeed, but with a 90mph max from there to Salisbury and 85mph Salisbury-Exeter, there would be an overall increase in journey times.
Another factor is reliability - one broken down train on a single line section can screw up the timetable for the rest of the day. The start-sprint-stop nature of the route with several inclines has defeated the class 42s, 50s and 47s over the last 50 years. Using 40 year old HSTs isn't likely to help. They are brilliant intercity trains - no-one can seriously dispute that - but asking them to accelerate rapidly to 85mph over an incline then brake to a halt every 7-8 miles isn't going to end well IMHO. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: The Grecian on April 08, 2017, 01:06:34 In terms of moving stock around, my understanding is after sorting out the WC / XC split in 2007, the DfT don't like TOCs moving stock around. Any attempt by GWR to move 158s or 159s from SWT to GWR is likely to be stopped.
What I suspect is more likely is the end of Bristol-Waterloo services or the new services from Yeovil Pen Mill to Waterloo via Westbury given they effectively compete with GWR. I'd assume peak services from YPM via Yeovil Junction to Waterloo and back must have picked up some custom and would be safer, although the passenger usage figures for 2015/16 don't seem to show any improvement for YPM after the new services were introduced in December 2015. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: John R on April 08, 2017, 07:39:13 I wonder whether FG might think of using HST's on the busy workings West of Salisbury and offer some of the 159's to Scotland (IIUC). I can't see the sense of making passenger trains shorter at the moment. OTC Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: paul7575 on April 08, 2017, 10:41:20 What I suspect is more likely is the end of Bristol-Waterloo services or the new services from Yeovil Pen Mill to Waterloo via Westbury given they effectively compete with GWR. This is covered explicitly in the ITT service level specification so unless First have negotiated it away then the situation is this: The former service (Bristol - Salisbury) is a required long term part of the franchise, however the franchisee is also required to discuss any services in excess of the current numbers after Dec 2018. The Yeovil Junction - Pen Mill services are an experimental service but they must run until Dec 2018. The Frome, Bruton, Castle Cary services are also experimental but must run until Dec 2018. Paul Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: IndustryInsider on April 08, 2017, 22:52:28 Meanwhile, still no comment from The SHRUG!
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: grahame on April 09, 2017, 08:57:06 Meanwhile, still no comment from The SHRUG! For newcomers - that's the South Hampshire Rail User's Group. http://www.shrug.info/HISTORY%20OF%20SHRUG.html Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: TonyK on April 09, 2017, 21:34:26 I don't understand the logic of crammed service trains and stored carriages - wasn't privatisation supposed to stop that? OTC You make some very simple things sound so complicated... Tony Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: grahame on April 10, 2017, 02:58:19 I don't understand the logic of crammed service trains and stored carriages - wasn't privatisation supposed to stop that? OTC You make some very simple things sound so complicated... Tony Privatisation discourages the addition of a carriage to your train until that carriage earn its keep. At (say) £200k per annum to hire, fuel and service you need to add £800.00 revenue per (Monday to Friday) day by running it, and if it's only that busy for 20 minutes in the morning and 20 minutes at night, the conductor / Ticket office / TVM needs to be pulling in an extra £20 per minute for that period because the train's a carriage longer. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: onthecushions on April 10, 2017, 20:05:02 I can't see the sense of making passenger trains shorter at the moment. OTC I meant the HST's going from 2+8 to 2+4 and 2+5. 11 sets West of Exeter, I understand and 27 sets in Scotland. OTC Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: JayMac on April 11, 2017, 00:40:27 It's the net number of carriages that's important. Not the length of HSTs when they move to secondary services.
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: stuving on April 11, 2017, 23:20:00 The platform extensions on Waterloo-Reading are now finished - Network Rail announced that on march 31st (https://www.networkrail.co.uk/feeds/longer-platforms-for-longer-trains-network-rail-completes-bracknell-and-wokingham-station-upgrades/). The news also says that SWT will start operating 10-car trains in May, as previously promised. So I guess that means the 458s are coming back "home".
Presumably the Windsor route will be taken over by 707s - that was the plan. The full complement of 15 trains won't be in place until November, but there should be easily enough to run the current service. And of course there are enough 458s to run the 4 tph Reading service. I think that's where I got the idea that that might start early - if the stock exists, and once the infrastructure (mainly Waterloo International) has been reconfigured, why not? Well, of course the answer now lies in SWR's hands. Would they want to show willing, or not like to suggest SWT had already provisioned for it? Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: RichardB on April 12, 2017, 07:55:20 I think that's where I got the idea that that might start early - if the stock exists, and once the infrastructure (mainly Waterloo International) has been reconfigured, why not? I'm guessing SWT are employing additional traincrew for the increased services - depends on when their training is completed. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: stuving on April 12, 2017, 09:05:04 I think that's where I got the idea that that might start early - if the stock exists, and once the infrastructure (mainly Waterloo International) has been reconfigured, why not? I'm guessing SWT are employing additional traincrew for the increased services - depends on when their training is completed. I can only guess about that too. But there doesn't seem a lot of point getting in new trains (including the pseudo-new 458/5s) unless they are going to be used, and that needs drivers. Transferring staff to a new franchisee offers scope for all sorts of things to go wrong, but I don't think "too many drivers" is a likely one. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: paul7575 on April 12, 2017, 11:19:33 The current SWT plans, involving the 10 car 458/5s to the Reading route and the 10 car 707s to the Windsor route, and a transfer of 450s elsewhere, followed by 10 car main suburban services from Dec 2017, (455+455+456 from P1-P4 at Waterloo) combine to provide the end results expected of the CP5 HLOS capacity project.
Despite taking so long, they were a key feature of the DfT's 2012 HLOS. It would be rather odd if the expected changes did not happen regardless of the franchisee changing, indeed the ITT expressly required the incoming franchisee to complete the introduction of the 707s into service. Remember though that Waterloo International platforms do not become fully available until Dec 2018. They reclose for more work immediately after the August blockade. AFAICT they are not needed for the Dec 2017 timetable, and 4 tph on the Reading line is already possible in the peaks without them. It is probably the 4 tph to Windsor itself that needs the extra platform capacity. Paul Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: SandTEngineer on May 11, 2017, 10:55:22 Oh dear: https://www.gov.uk/cma-cases/firstgroup-and-mtr-south-western-rail-franchise-merger-inquiry
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: ChrisB on May 11, 2017, 10:57:03 No surprise really, I raised similar concerns on award....
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: IndustryInsider on May 11, 2017, 11:27:28 I predict the outcome will be 'no action needed'.
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: ChrisB on May 11, 2017, 11:41:50 All depends - it's an EU request. They can override the UK Commission, if they think action is needed, and the UK do as you say....
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: LiskeardRich on May 11, 2017, 12:36:30 I see it no different to virgin having East and west coast. Two different routes with the same final destination
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: paul7575 on May 11, 2017, 12:38:30 AIUI every franchise award over the last few years has been followed a few weeks later by this sort of CMA referral. They never lead to any significant changes as far as I recall, so I wouldn't read anything significant into it...
Paul Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: TonyK on May 15, 2017, 21:57:50 AIUI every franchise award over the last few years has been followed a few weeks later by this sort of CMA referral. They never lead to any significant changes as far as I recall, so I wouldn't read anything significant into it... Paul Must be seen to go through the motions, I suppose. Someone could complain more easily if the CMA didn't look at it. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: SandTEngineer on May 28, 2017, 08:47:29 This interesting link has been posted on the WNXX forum: http://firstmtrswstaff.com
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: Oberon on May 28, 2017, 21:45:56 Reading this I get a feeling that the new franchisees aren't really interested in the Waterloo-Exeter line. This is a great pity, I feel its potential is enormous.
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: paul7575 on May 28, 2017, 23:39:37 Reading this I get a feeling that the new franchisees aren't really interested in the Waterloo-Exeter line. This is a great pity, I feel its potential is enormous. The ITT did not call for any changes on the Waterloo to Exeter line, that will be why. Apart from the widely discussed decision to replace all inner suburban rolling stock, there isnt really much at all in the First group offering that wasn't asked for by the service specification. There was little scope to increase local services around Exeter/Honiton/Axminster as that improvement has effectively been allocated to the GW franchise, rather than the SW. Paul Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: bradshaw on May 29, 2017, 12:09:33 In addition the Network Rail RUS for the Basingstoke to Exeter indicates that the infrastructure developments are dependent on decisions made concerning future rolling stock. The location of passing loops depends on the use of diesel or electric EMUs. Now the latter is most unlikely, with the probability that the next control period will only fund basic work such is the over-run on current projects.
Another drawback is the sale of railway land as seen at Tisbury and now Crewkerne. Here the down yard has been sold, with an application for housing to be submitted. This together with the platform widening some years back means that the dynamic passing loop mentioned in the RUS will need to be located away from the station. This could lead to the similar situation as seen at Tisbury where down trains have to be held until the up has passed. Likewise at Templecombe the platform changes mean that it would be expensive to extend the double track into the station. Again late running of down trains can force the up to wait until the down leaves. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: grahame on May 29, 2017, 12:41:02 Forty to fifty years ago were different times for the railways; it's tragic (but perhaps understandable) that zero prospect of re-instatement of a second track was seen by the mainstream, and indeed the line was "lucky" to hang on even as it did from Salisbury to Exeter.
We now have a line that can be characterised as a single line, with a few passing loops of double track, the odd one or two being dynamic. Adding in extra loops may not do very much to increase capacity though, until there is so much double track that the line can be described as "double track with a few short single track sections". Once it gets to that point (or if it's all done in one go!) you have different metrics for timetabling; for sure, still a single track through Tisbury station, but that's more than enough for a train every half hour each way - 10 to 15 minutes between them so very much reduced delays (and frustrating ones) for people waiting just short of their destination, and if the up train is seriously delayed, the down service could call and be clear of the short single track before it arrived, and vice versa. What happens at Malton? How does that work? It's one platform only on a double track, with double crossovers, I believe? I could see a similar situation with regards other widenings - keep the difficult bits single ... Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: SandTEngineer on May 29, 2017, 15:39:00 Sometime back in the mid-1990s when I worked for a certain namless Infrastructure company that used the initials RT, we looked in some depth at the Exeter-Salisbury line. Somewhere I might have the 'sketches' that were produced to show the options for an hourly service throughout (including the Axminster dynamic loop that was proposed to extend from Axminster excl to Chard Junction to avoid having a second platform at Axminster) and a loop somewhere in the Whimple/Feniton area to allow a half hourly service between Exeter and Honiton. It also included extension of Tisbury loop and the extension West of the existing double track section at Wiliton. Like most good ideas at that time it never got funded, so into the bottom draw it all went ::) :P
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: John R on June 20, 2017, 08:29:00 I see it's been announced this morning that Bombardier has won the order for 750 new vehicles. Great news for Derby.
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: SandTEngineer on June 20, 2017, 08:56:44 I see it's been announced this morning that Bombardier has won the order for 750 new vehicles. Great news for Derby. Yes. Its announced here: http://www.firstgroupplc.com/news-and-media/latest-news/2017/20-06-17.aspx Quote FirstGroup and MTR order £895m new trains for South Western rail franchise 20 Jun 2017 FirsrGroup Bombardier South WesternMuch needed extra seats for suburban rail services into London Waterloo moved a step closer today as new South Western franchise operators FirstGroup and MTR signed an order for 90 new trains (750 new carriages, in five and 10 car formations). The £895m fleet of “AVENTRA” trains, providing a 46% increase in peak capacity on the suburban routes into Waterloo, will be manufactured by Bombardier Transportation in Derby. The new trains will enhance the travelling experience for customers with free reliable Wi-Fi, at-seat charging points, real time information screens, air conditioning, wide gangways and wide doors to improve ease of boarding and alighting. The new trains will start to come into service from mid 2019 and will all be in place by December 2020. The new trains will operate on the Windsor, Reading and West London suburban routes. The fleet will be maintained at Wimbledon depot, with South Western franchise employees undertaking the maintenance, supported by Bombardier employees who will supply technical advice and spares. FirstGroup and MTR included the plans for these new trains as part of their winning bid for the South Western rail network, with the new franchise due to start on 20 August this year. They will be capable of 100mph, be highly energy efficient and will contribute to reduced journey times. Funding for the trains has been led by sponsor Rock Rail and partners SL Capital (part of Standard Life Investments) and GLIL Infrastructure LLP, who all provided the equity investment. The senior debt is provided by a consortium of UK, European and North American institutional investors. The trains will be leased to the new South Western rail franchise. Transport Minister Paul Maynard said: “We are delivering the biggest rail modernisation programme for over a century and this franchise will provide more frequent trains, faster journeys and a more reliable service that passengers across the South Western network expect. “This multi-million pound investment in a new fleet of British-built trains is excellent news for South Western passengers and the British economy. This investment reflects our commitment, and that of train operators, to put passengers at the heart of everything we do, and will improve journeys and target congestion.” Steve Montgomery, Managing Director, First Rail said: "We have exciting plans for the South Western rail franchise and these new trains are an important step on the way to delivering an improved journey experience for our passengers. We know from listening to passengers and stakeholders that alongside improved performance, what they want to see is additional seats and we will deliver this via these state-of-the-art trains." Jeremy Long, CEO, European Business at MTR, said: “We look forward to working together with FirstGroup to introduce this new fleet of trains.” Richard Hunter, UK Managing Director, Bombardier Transportation, said “We are thrilled to have won this important contract. It demonstrates further confidence placed in this market leading rolling stock, designed and built in Britain. This order is a fantastic endorsement of our skilled workforce and the quality of the products we design, engineer and manufacture here in the UK. It will ensure a stable, long-term workload for our staff in Derby. AVENTRA offers enhanced performance and increased passenger capacity, which will play an important part in helping FirstGroup and MTR satisfy continued levels of passenger growth on the South Western network.” Mark Swindell, Chief Executive Officer of Rock Rail said: “Rock Rail are delighted to be funding and leasing these trains which will bring a step change to the travelling experience for so many commuters. Our funders are leading pension and insurance institutions from both the UK and overseas who are directly investing in the UK’s long term economic infrastructure, on a basis that delivers significant cost savings and value for money enhancement for UK operators. We look forward to working closely with FirstGroup and MTR and all our partners to bring these trains into service.” Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: Surrey 455 on June 20, 2017, 21:17:14 I see it's been announced this morning that Bombardier has won the order for 750 new vehicles. Great news for Derby. Yes. Its announced here: http://www.firstgroupplc.com/news-and-media/latest-news/2017/20-06-17.aspx Quote FirstGroup and MTR order £895m new trains for South Western rail franchise 20 Jun 2017 FirsrGroup Bombardier South WesternMuch needed extra seats for suburban rail services into London Waterloo moved a step closer today as new South Western franchise operators FirstGroup and MTR signed an order for 90 new trains (750 new carriages, in five and 10 car formations). The £895m fleet of “AVENTRA” trains, providing a 46% increase in peak capacity on the suburban routes into Waterloo, will be manufactured by Bombardier Transportation in Derby. The new trains will enhance the travelling experience for customers with free reliable Wi-Fi, at-seat charging points, real time information screens, air conditioning, wide gangways and wide doors to improve ease of boarding and alighting. The new trains will start to come into service from mid 2019 and will all be in place by December 2020. The new trains will operate on the Windsor, Reading and West London suburban routes. The fleet will be maintained at Wimbledon depot, with South Western franchise employees undertaking the maintenance, supported by Bombardier employees who will supply technical advice and spares. FirstGroup and MTR included the plans for these new trains as part of their winning bid for the South Western rail network, with the new franchise due to start on 20 August this year. They will be capable of 100mph, be highly energy efficient and will contribute to reduced journey times. Funding for the trains has been led by sponsor Rock Rail and partners SL Capital (part of Standard Life Investments) and GLIL Infrastructure LLP, who all provided the equity investment. The senior debt is provided by a consortium of UK, European and North American institutional investors. The trains will be leased to the new South Western rail franchise. Transport Minister Paul Maynard said: “We are delivering the biggest rail modernisation programme for over a century and this franchise will provide more frequent trains, faster journeys and a more reliable service that passengers across the South Western network expect. “This multi-million pound investment in a new fleet of British-built trains is excellent news for South Western passengers and the British economy. This investment reflects our commitment, and that of train operators, to put passengers at the heart of everything we do, and will improve journeys and target congestion.” Steve Montgomery, Managing Director, First Rail said: "We have exciting plans for the South Western rail franchise and these new trains are an important step on the way to delivering an improved journey experience for our passengers. We know from listening to passengers and stakeholders that alongside improved performance, what they want to see is additional seats and we will deliver this via these state-of-the-art trains." Jeremy Long, CEO, European Business at MTR, said: “We look forward to working together with FirstGroup to introduce this new fleet of trains.” Richard Hunter, UK Managing Director, Bombardier Transportation, said “We are thrilled to have won this important contract. It demonstrates further confidence placed in this market leading rolling stock, designed and built in Britain. This order is a fantastic endorsement of our skilled workforce and the quality of the products we design, engineer and manufacture here in the UK. It will ensure a stable, long-term workload for our staff in Derby. AVENTRA offers enhanced performance and increased passenger capacity, which will play an important part in helping FirstGroup and MTR satisfy continued levels of passenger growth on the South Western network.” Mark Swindell, Chief Executive Officer of Rock Rail said: “Rock Rail are delighted to be funding and leasing these trains which will bring a step change to the travelling experience for so many commuters. Our funders are leading pension and insurance institutions from both the UK and overseas who are directly investing in the UK’s long term economic infrastructure, on a basis that delivers significant cost savings and value for money enhancement for UK operators. We look forward to working closely with FirstGroup and MTR and all our partners to bring these trains into service.” As FirstMTR have declined to take the new trains that SWT have ordered for later this year, does this mean that the Windsor and Reading lines will now be getting new trains 18-24 months later than planned? My understanding was that the new SWT trains would be releasing stock for the Wimbledon Suburban lines so they could be extended to 10 carriages. The Waterloo upgrade programme in a few weeks time will finally allow 10 car trains to operate from platforms 1 to 4. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: John R on June 20, 2017, 21:24:22 Has there been any announcement regarding FirstMTR declining to take on the new trains? The original plan was that they would be delivered and would be replaced in due course by their stock. I can't imagine DfT would sign off a deal that would leave brand new trains in the sidings for 2 years.
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: stuving on June 20, 2017, 23:36:31 Has there been any announcement regarding FirstMTR declining to take on the new trains? The original plan was that they would be delivered and would be replaced in due course by their stock. I can't imagine DfT would sign off a deal that would leave brand new trains in the sidings for 2 years. The full service for Reading and Windsor, as required by the new franchise, has to start in December 2018. That will need the current new stock, so it has to be taken over, as the new new stock won't have arrived by then. Thus Paul Clifton was reporting this on BBC South Today as the current fleets being "rejected". However, as he still insists on never mentioning RoSCOs at all, the report didn't make a lot of sense. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: paul7575 on June 20, 2017, 23:43:08 Apparently SWT have been tweeting today that the 707s will be introduced into service.
Paul Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: Rhydgaled on June 21, 2017, 09:13:25 Quote The £895m fleet of “AVENTRA” trains, providing a 46% increase in peak capacity on the suburban routes into Waterloo, will be manufactured by Bombardier Transportation in Derby. The new trains will enhance the travelling experience for customers with free reliable Wi-Fi, at-seat charging points, real time information screens, air conditioning, wide gangways and wide doors to improve ease of boarding and alighting. The new trains will start to come into service from mid 2019 and will all be in place by December 2020. The cheek... They list enhancements for passengers, including wide gangways, but the accompanying picture shows... no Unit-End Gangways (UEGs). Granted the illustration may be an impression of the 10-car sets, but given we have not seen an Aventra with UEGs I suspect the 5-car sets won't have them either. If you're not only having wide gangways but also promoting them as an enhanced feature then not allowing passengers to move between a pair of 5-car units in multiple leaves a 'bad taste'. If you want to run the railway in the best interests of passengers, then if you order units that are intended to run in multiple you should specify that said units must have UEGs.Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: John R on June 21, 2017, 11:15:33 I don't see why UEGs are important for passengers on suburban trains? Operationally I can see the attraction, but I wouldn't have thought pax would care less. The ability to easily walk through 5 carriages to find a less congested part of the train is a big step forward (as well as the additional space the wide gangways give). So I would have thought 2 x 5 carriage wide gangway sets with no UEG is still a big step forward from 2 x 4 separated vehicles with a UEG in between.
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: bradshaw on June 21, 2017, 12:34:08 The July edition of Modern Railways p81 has a headline "707 introduction stalls".
Industry sources suggesting test running has stopped, units not achieving the required fault free running. This with uncertainty over the Waterloo works together with the franchise change are seen as likely reasons. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: stuving on June 21, 2017, 13:40:20 Here's a few salient facts:
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: ChrisB on June 21, 2017, 13:45:14 Hmm - surely the 'like the Underground limit' time is equivalent to the Aldgate - Amersham trip? That's over an hour.
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: paul7575 on June 21, 2017, 14:52:29 Hmm - surely the 'like the Underground limit' time is equivalent to the Aldgate - Amersham trip? That's over an hour. The new trains will all have toilets, First's announcement in March explicitly said so.However here is no time or distance limit that forces rolling stock to have toilets. Many have searched for it but nothing has ever been found. Southern run Brighton to Portsmouth Harbour all stations stoppers without facilities... Take about 90 mins. I've always reckoned most of the percentage peak capacity increases declared by First would have happened anyway under Stagecoach. As we know, the First group order for 750 x 20m new vehicles replaces 742 x 20m existing vehicles. So the overall capacity increase is mainly down to the 707s and the internal cascade of 450s onto other mainline routes, which was a CP5 HLOS agreement with DfT. IE the new trains will now be different, but the overall vehicle numbers are very similar. First seem to be highlighting something that SWT had already organised? It is the 18 x 5 car 442s that are the real bonus capacity, and they will also allow the 450 & 444 fleets to be used differently. Paul Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: stuving on June 21, 2017, 15:33:07 Hmm - surely the 'like the Underground limit' time is equivalent to the Aldgate - Amersham trip? That's over an hour. The new trains will all have toilets, First's announcement in March explicitly said so.However here is no time or distance limit that forces rolling stock to have toilets. Many have searched for it but nothing has ever been found. Southern run Brighton to Portsmouth Harbour all stations stoppers without facilities... Take about 90 mins. ... Paul I'd missed that - I take back my implied criticism of SWR, especially as the provision will now apply to the suburban stock too. In the rehash of that release on their staff website, that's made clearer: "Toilets on all mainland trains". And about time too. The point I was trying to make very briefly putting 'like the Underground limit' in quotes is that lack of toilet provision is uncivilised, and its removal a clear degradation of service level and comfort. The best argument against that is probably "it's accepted on underground trains". Of course if there is a continuous stream of complaints even that isn't a good case. And no, the Met isn't 'like the underground'. It may now be operated as part of it, but it was built with other ideas in mind. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: ChrisB on June 21, 2017, 15:43:21 As the Elizabeth Line has been. Both without toilet provision.
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: Surrey 455 on June 22, 2017, 00:02:23 They list enhancements for passengers, including wide gangways, but the accompanying picture shows... no Unit-End Gangways (UEGs). Granted the illustration may be an impression of the 10-car sets, but given we have not seen an Aventra with UEGs I suspect the 5-car sets won't have them either. If you're not only having wide gangways but also promoting them as an enhanced feature then not allowing passengers to move between a pair of 5-car units in multiple leaves a 'bad taste'. If you want to run the railway in the best interests of passengers, then if you order units that are intended to run in multiple you should specify that said units must have UEGs. The existing 455 units on SWT have UEGs but they are locked out of use. I suspect the Southern versions are too. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: Rhydgaled on June 22, 2017, 12:04:26 I don't see why UEGs are important for passengers on suburban trains? Operationally I can see the attraction, but I wouldn't have thought pax would care less. The ability to easily walk through 5 carriages to find a less congested part of the train is a big step forward (as well as the additional space the wide gangways give). You hit the nail on the head: being able to walk through to find a less congested part of the train. I'm sure it has been said on this forum that trains out of Paddington, Waterloo etc. tend to be more-heavily loaded at the end nearest the ticket barriers which shows passengers tend to board the train at or near the first doors they come to. With the 10-car sets, passengers will be able to walk through right to the end if they board a busy carriage, a pair of 5-car units without UEGs is more likely to have a sudden drop in loadings between the 5th and 6th coaches. UEGs would allow passengers to move into that sixth coach and maybe find a seat, a big benifit in my view.An even bigger reason for UEGs however, from a passenger's perspective, is if the trains are scheduled to divide on route. As noted above, passengers tend to board the doors they come to first; this will be particularly true if they are in a hurry making a tight connection. Thus passengers may need to walk through to the correct portion, and asking them to alight at the next station to move to the other unit is effectively asking them to change trains. This is so important that, in my opinion, franchise agreemeents should forbid advertising trains as through services where units are uncoupled on-route unless the train that divides is gangwayed throughout. Of course if the idea is to run 2x5-car sets into Waterloo in the morning peak then detach a unit in the platform at Waterloo which runs ECS to depot/sidings leaving a 5-car in the platform to work off-peak services that's not a problem, but anything that divides on route needs UEGs (or the timetable and journey planners need to show it as seperate services, so passengers expect to have to change at the point the service divides). Operationally the only benifit of UEGs I can see for the TOC is that a single guard can access the entire train (although the numbers of passengers on a 10-car formation probably requires multiple staff anyway). lack of toilet provision is uncivilised I completely agree. The Crossrail trains, for example, really ought to have toilets fitted.They list enhancements for passengers, including wide gangways, but the accompanying picture shows... no Unit-End Gangways (UEGs). Granted the illustration may be an impression of the 10-car sets, but given we have not seen an Aventra with UEGs I suspect the 5-car sets won't have them either. If you're not only having wide gangways but also promoting them as an enhanced feature then not allowing passengers to move between a pair of 5-car units in multiple leaves a 'bad taste'. If you want to run the railway in the best interests of passengers, then if you order units that are intended to run in multiple you should specify that said units must have UEGs. The existing 455 units on SWT have UEGs but they are locked out of use. I suspect the Southern versions are too. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: paul7575 on June 22, 2017, 17:40:51 The existing 455 units on SWT have UEGs but they are locked out of use. I suspect the Southern versions are too. On Southern units the end gangways are no longer fitted - they were removed and plated over some years ago as part of cab layout changes to provide for driver aircon...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_455#/media/File:455801_London_Victoria_September_2016.jpg Paul Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: John R on June 22, 2017, 19:01:33 You hit the nail on the head: being able to walk through to find a less congested part of the train. An even bigger reason for UEGs however, from a passenger's perspective, is if the trains are scheduled to divide on route. But you've ignored my point that the new stock is much better at distributing passenger load than Class 455's are, owing to the ease of walking within a unit, the extra car, and the greater space afforded by the wide gangways. So the disbenefit of not having IUG is minor in comparison to the gains achieved, particularly when we now know that the IUG's on 455's have been locked out of use for years. And the point about trains dividing en route is somewhat spurious. You still have to be in the right part of the train when it divides. Whether you walk through the train or get off and back on again is six of one, half dozen of the other, particularly as IUGs tends to be narrow and not particularly easy for those with large luggage or those with restriction of movement. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: ChrisB on June 22, 2017, 21:56:13 Also, ever been on a peak HST out if Paddington?
Can walk through all of that, but pax are lazy....you'll find bunching in first couple of STD coaches by those without a reservation. I don't think a UEG will mecessarily work the way you think it might Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: CyclingSid on June 23, 2017, 16:50:11 Try a train to Ascot on race day. Only two coaches at barrier end tend to be used, its a ling way in heels.
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: John R on June 23, 2017, 17:25:06 Try a train to Ascot on race day. Only two coaches at barrier end tend to be used, its a ling way in heels. Do you say that from experience?Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: grahame on June 23, 2017, 17:28:03 Try a train to Ascot on race day. Only two coaches at barrier end tend to be used, its a ling way in heels. Do you say that from experience?Is that because they're the ones with "slightly wider seats" up front by any chance? Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: grahame on July 04, 2017, 12:04:17 I have amended the topic of this board from "South West Trains" to "South Western Services" in order to be more general and cover both the concluding Stagecoach franchise and the starting First / MTR one.
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: ChrisB on July 11, 2017, 11:59:47 From a press release I've seen, not sure who issued it. Presumably the CMA?
Quote The government market regulator has today raised concern about the award of the South Western franchise to First MTR. In March, the franchise was awarded to the company, which is a joint venture between First Group and Hong Kong based firm MTR. The Competition and Markets Authority (CMA) has been investigating the award of the new franchise (which is due to start on 20 August) since May, and on the majority of the routes there were found to be no issues with competition. However, the regulator has now intervened as it argues that there could be a lack of competition on the route between London and Exeter, as FirstGroup also run the GWR franchise, which is the only other route down to the south west. This could mean that passengers using this route could end up paying higher fares and receive a worse service due to a lack of competition. Andrea Coscelli, acting chief executive and decision-maker of the CMA, said: “This is a crucial rail route to the south west, used by around half a million passengers a year. It’s therefore vital that passengers do not suffer as a result of reduced competition. “The CMA believes that without its intervention, FirstGroup may be able to increase fares for passengers between London and Exeter, as it will be the only rail operator running all services on this route. “We look forward to hearing from the companies involved about how they think they can overcome this.” Both FirstGroup and MTR have now been given the opportunity to offer proposals (known as ‘undertakings in lieu of reference’) to ensure that the concerns identified by the CMA are addressed. If the suggestions tabled by the two companies are considered sufficient then they will avoid an in-depth phase 2 investigation. Previously, the CMA had ruled on a similar issue with the award of the Northern franchise, and in this case, the winning operator Arriva agreed to cap fares on the route to resolve the regulator’s concerns. It also follows the CMA clearing the award of the TPE franchise to FirstGroup last year as it found that competition on the route would not be negatively affected. A spokesperson for FirstGroup told RTM: “We have been discussing our plans for the new South Western franchise with the CMA for several months. “Now that this update gives more clarity, we look forward to submitting our proposals on this issue which we envisage will satisfy their concerns.” First MTR will now have five working days to propose their undertakings, and the CMA will announce its preliminary decision on whether these measures are sufficient by 25 July. Personally, no surprise whatsoever Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: IndustryInsider on July 11, 2017, 13:05:54 No surprise, but I expect the necessary assurances will be given and there will be no need for concern.
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: paul7575 on July 11, 2017, 13:28:38 No surprise, but I expect the necessary assurances will be given and there will be no need for concern. Don't recall this being much of a problem for Virgin to Edinburgh. The various regulated fares will carry on within their existing rules anyway... Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: grahame on July 11, 2017, 14:27:38 No surprise, but I expect the necessary assurances will be given and there will be no need for concern. Don't recall this being much of a problem for Virgin to Edinburgh. The various regulated fares will carry on within their existing rules anyway... Virgin are just a 10% Stakeholder in East Coast - not a controlling interest, whereas they're 100% London to Exeter via Taunton, and 70% via Honiton. Having said which ... London to Newcastle, to Manchester, to Cardiff, to Norwich, to Brighton all are effectively in the hands of a single provider with little or no competition, so why single out Exeter to ask the question? Answering my own question, could it be because of the significant differential prices at present on routes from London via Salisbury to both Exeter and Bristol? Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: ChrisB on July 11, 2017, 15:10:10 yup!
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: CyclingSid on July 11, 2017, 15:52:31 The source document can be found at:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/london-to-exeter-rail-passengers-protected-by-cma Note 2 relates to what you have already said. CMA will announce their preliminary decision by 25 July. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: JayMac on July 11, 2017, 19:50:02 The Competition and Markets Authority is looking at the South Western franchise award. But only the services from London to Exeter. With First Group having control of both routes the CMA has concerns that there could be reduced competition, leading to higher fares or worse service for passengers.
There are no CMA concerns elsewhere across the two franchises. http://www.cityam.com/268205/firstgroup-and-mtr-facing-investigation-competition Any problems will be shortlived though. First won't win Greater Western again. My belief. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: LiskeardRich on July 11, 2017, 20:13:50 Any problems will be shortlived though. First won't win Greater Western again. My belief. Seconded Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: ChrisB on July 11, 2017, 21:12:09 Thirded....the DfT are moving them around is my opinion
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: TonyK on July 11, 2017, 21:22:31 Thirded....the DfT are moving them around is my opinion It certainly seems that way. There is a government / civil service mindset for mixing things up whenever people get used to them. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: IndustryInsider on July 11, 2017, 21:25:14 Anyone care to stick their neck out and say who will win it then?
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: SandTEngineer on July 11, 2017, 21:31:44 Anyone care to stick their neck out and say who will win it then? Stagecoach...... ::) :PTitle: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic) Post by: JayMac on July 11, 2017, 21:38:23 Serco, with a foreign rail concern.
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: eightf48544 on July 12, 2017, 08:50:54 Way out idea what about Direct Rail Services if Corbyn is PM?
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: ChrisB on July 12, 2017, 08:53:38 Corbyn as PM or DRS services? :-)
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: LiskeardRich on July 12, 2017, 09:24:08 I'm of the believe the railway are not competing with each other.
Is it really a competing route? To me natex and megabus are the competition. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: ChrisB on July 12, 2017, 10:41:51 hmmm. I'd never sit on a coach for that distance/time.
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: John R on July 12, 2017, 11:13:48 This really is a non-issue and headlines such as in the Standard stating the franchise change has been halted are a result of extremely bad journalism. All that has happened is that the CMA has said they have a concern on fares to Exeter, and given First Group 5 days to come up with proposals to allay those concerns. All First has to do is give an assurance that it will not increase fares on the Waterloo line unduly, which they will be more than happy to do. As already noted, regulated fares are fixed anyway. First will have anticipated this, and already have its response ready.
The only thing I would want is a guarantee that the Network Card continues to be valid to Exeter. The bizarre thing about the CMA process is that it doesn't (or realistically, can't) have any concern on the 99% of the two operator routes, where there is already no competition (as on the majority of the railway). Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: PhilWakely on July 12, 2017, 12:41:50 Way out idea what about Direct Rail Services if Corbyn is PM? IIRC, under British Railways, the Southern Region operated WAT-EXD (and beyond) services whilst the Western Region looked after PAD-EXD (and beyond). Then, in the mid-60s, the WR took over the Waterloo route and decided that only one major route to the Westcountry was required. So, a nationalised railway may not necessarily be good for competing routes (not that I agree with the current privatised structure). Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: IndustryInsider on July 12, 2017, 14:01:40 Anyone care to stick their neck out and say who will win it then? Stagecoach...... ::) :PSerco, with a foreign rail concern. Way out idea what about Direct Rail Services if Corbyn is PM? Well, we'll see in a couple of years if any of you were right. For my money First will keep it. ;) Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: Adelante_CCT on July 12, 2017, 15:15:23 First is my bet too, don't know why, just a hunch.
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: Southernman on July 12, 2017, 23:11:46 I'm of the believe the railway are not competing with each other. I tend to disagree! WAT-EXD has enticed a goodly number of longer distance passengers away from GWR, mainly on price but also on frequency (to Yeovil) and general reliability. Sure, bus (limited) and car are competitors and rarely do rail services compete (this case being an exception to the rule!).Is it really a competing route? To me natex and megabus are the competition. But its not only about fares. Its about keeping up standards and maintenance. If First do retain the Greater Western franchise, surely its better to have agreements in writing to refer back to? No, I only expect to see agreement on a cap on fare increases. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: bradshaw on July 13, 2017, 10:29:52 But, hypothetically speaking, what if the new GWR franchise had a prospective Newbury, Westbury, Taunton service with a station at Langport/Somerton. Might that abstract from Crewkerne and Yeovil?
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: ChrisB on July 13, 2017, 10:37:13 Also, they might push up the fares / restrict heavily the Advance fares on the GWR mainline as far as EXD, pushing those on a limited budget to having to use the SWT line to EXD. Could work both ways.
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: JayMac on July 13, 2017, 11:23:16 But, hypothetically speaking, what if the new GWR franchise had a prospective Newbury, Westbury, Taunton service with a station at Langport/Somerton. Might that abstract from Crewkerne and Yeovil? Those I know, myself included, living in the Langport/Somerton area, almost always access the rail network through Castle Cary. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: Southernman on July 14, 2017, 09:04:07 I'm of the believe the railway are not competing with each other. I tend to disagree! WAT-EXD has enticed a goodly number of longer distance passengers away from GWR, mainly on price but also on frequency (to Yeovil) and general reliability. Sure, bus (limited) and car are competitors and rarely do rail services compete (this case being an exception to the rule!).Is it really a competing route? To me natex and megabus are the competition. But its not only about fares. Its about keeping up standards and maintenance. If First do retain the Greater Western franchise, surely its better to have agreements in writing to refer back to? No, I only expect to see agreement on a cap on fare increases. Castle Cary 241 (245, 245, 234, 275) Gillingham 426 (423, 416, 408, 425) Templecombe 115 (114, 107,113, 107) Sherborne 221 (216, 203, 205, 195) Yeovil Jct 223 (215, 212, 198, 207) This shows a slight decrease at Castle Cary in the last 3 years and steady growth at all the others. Hence I firmly believe there is a true alternative (rival) to the Paddington route. Who knows what might happen in the future but with the general lack of money and uncertainty it is a pretty good bet that (apart from resilience work) not much in the way of costly infrastructure improvement is likely in the short term. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: Timmer on July 14, 2017, 09:18:50 I think with new trains starting to serve Castle Cary and no replacement planned for the 159s on the Waterloo-Exeter line during the new franchise, that could see numbers rising on the Paddington line from Castle Cary. It's a shame as the Waterloo-Exeter line has so much potential with further redoubling and new rolling stock.
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: grahame on July 14, 2017, 09:39:57 It strikes me that the competition element isn't so much between London and Exeter but rather in the intermediate areas, where people are rail-heading to one line or the other and will choose based on such things as
Price Frequency Length of journey Where abouts in London their final destination is Convenience to them of the station in Somerset - distance, availability of parking or transport there There may be few changes coming on the line via Honiton, but the line via Castle Cary (intermediate trains) switch from the current irregular pattern to - we hear - a regular two-hourly service with 5 car IEP units in about 18 months. No great secret that they'll be seeking passengers at the station along the way to help fill seats. I wonder if / how Heart of Wessex services will connect into this radically updated timetable / what the offerings from Yeovil (where Pen Mill is within the urban sprawl) will be. A change at Castle Cary, Bruton, Frome or Westbury every 2 hours may compare well for some with the need to get out of town to the junction station. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: grahame on July 26, 2017, 12:32:41 Were we aware of this CMA consultation on the Coffee Shop? Lotta pages on this thread, so a reminder here and about 2 weeks left to answer. Web site says "updated 24th July"
Quote ... the CMA is currently running a public consultation in relation to the undertakings First Group and MTR have proposed in order to remedy the competition concerns identified on the London to Exeter route. Details of the consultation are available on our website at: https://www.gov.uk/cma-cases/firstgroup-and-mtr-south-western-rail-franchise-merger-inquiry. The consultation is open until 8 August. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: paul7575 on July 26, 2017, 13:20:33 I think First/MTR have already come up with the solution, accepting that the SWT route will have to be regulated at current levels. It came up in the Telegraph a week ago.
Quote Now the pair have offered to cap unregulated fares between London and Exeter on both South Western trains, which run from Waterloo, and its Great Western services from Paddington. The caps will be imposed by linking them to prices on a number of other comparable routes, the CMA said, adding that the rail companies had also proposed maintaining the availability of cheaper advance fares on both lines, again based on prices of similar routes. The CMA said it thought there were “reasonable grounds” to think the proposals, or a version of them, would remedy its concerns. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/07/19/exeter-london-rail-fare-caps-mooted-first-group-appease-competition/ Paul Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: ChrisB on July 26, 2017, 14:21:25 It did get mentioned somewhere when the CMA announced that they were minded to refer for a full investigation.
As long as *both* routes to EXD are linked & controlled, I'm happy. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: bradshaw on July 31, 2017, 20:53:32 This is from the First/MTR staff site, explaining how they will speed up the W of E service How are we increasing the services and cutting down journey times of the west of England line? Services are currently planned to wait outside Waterloo in the direction towards Waterloo and from Waterloo outside Salisbury for other services, by changing the timetable we will be able to remove this time. We are also reviewing the station dwell times at Basingstoke and Woking. This proposal is subject to consultation once the new franchise has started. However, does the increase in seating mean that first class will go? Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: Timmer on July 31, 2017, 22:10:19 However, does the increase in seating mean that first class will go? Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: paul7575 on August 01, 2017, 11:28:11 I have a feeling that at least some of the planned increase in seating on the Salisbury and Exeter trains must come from finally removing the few remaining DMU diagrams that operate on other routes - the most obvious being the Lymington shuttle, but there are still a few other peak DMU services away from the main west of England line.
If they can divert 5 or 6 vehicles to strengthen a couple of peak trains to and from Salisbury then that is a single figure percentage increase straightaway... Paul Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: Timmer on August 01, 2017, 12:40:57 I have a feeling that at least some of the planned increase in seating on the Salisbury and Exeter trains must come from finally removing the few remaining DMU diagrams that operate on other routes - the most obvious being the Lymington shuttle, but there are still a few other peak DMU services away from the main west of England line. They are due to be getting the daily hired out unit to GWR back soon?If they can divert 5 or 6 vehicles to strengthen a couple of peak trains to and from Salisbury then that is a single figure percentage increase straightaway... Paul Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: paul7575 on August 01, 2017, 15:14:52 They are due to be getting the daily hired out unit to GWR back soon? Perhaps things have changed, but that's not according to the Southwestern franchise ITT. It is described as being with GWR until March 2020 - in fact the ITT basically recommends it should be transferred permanently to GWR via the Rosco...Bidders were told to assume that there were only nine 158s available, rather than the theoretical 11 on lease. There's another unit permanently with EMT. Paul Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: stuving on August 01, 2017, 15:39:15 Has anyone seen sign of a website for SWR/Southwestern? Or whatever it's called; I've not even seen the branding announced. After all they officially start on 20th August, less than three weeks away.
Of course that's in the middle of the wonderful opportunity for chaos provided by NR shutting half of Waterloo. That ought not to be so bad in itself - I'm sure a franchise handover does take several days, rather than just being a case of a wave and a "good luck!" at the door. But would you pick then to do your big publicity and launch of the brand? Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: John R on August 01, 2017, 15:49:53 Usually on a franchise change the new website is not launched until the day of the handover, to avoid confusion, with the old url redirecting from that day.
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: paul7575 on August 01, 2017, 16:14:12 There's been a brief on the First/MTW staff webpage that the South Western Railway brand will appear on day 1, but the 'launch' of the franchise will be on 4th September:
http://firstmtrswstaff.com/index.php/franchise-updates/ Paul Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: paul7575 on August 03, 2017, 14:10:05 Stuff now appearing thanks to a track access application posted elsewhere, I've pulled out just the Reading and Windsor lines changes as I expect they could be of most interest:
Quote Waterloo to Reading, increases to 4tph all day, currently anywhere between 2tph and 4tphdepending on the hour in question. All services will operate via Richmond. These services also replace the Waterloo to Ascot sections of the current direct Waterloo to Farnham via Camberley services. Waterloo to Windsor, doubles from 2tph to 4tph all day with the additional 2tph operating via Hounslow Ascot to Guildford via Aldershot becomes two separate services groups but remaining at the current frequency 1. Ascot to Aldershot (2tph) 2. Guildford to Farnham via Aldershot (2tph) Waterloo to Weybridge services via Hounslow becomes two separate service groups, remaining at the current frequency 1. Waterloo to Hounslow (2tph) 2. Virginia Water to Weybridge (2tph) http://archive.nr.co.uk/browse%20documents/track%20access/1%20current%20consultations/01-08-2017%20-%20first%20mtr%20south%20west%20trains%20-%20section%2017%20-%20closes%20tuesday%2029th%20august%202017/passenger-access-application-form-p%20fmswt%20dec18%20v2.pdf (http://archive.nr.co.uk/browse%20documents/track%20access/1%20current%20consultations/01-08-2017%20-%20first%20mtr%20south%20west%20trains%20-%20section%2017%20-%20closes%20tuesday%2029th%20august%202017/passenger-access-application-form-p%20fmswt%20dec18%20v2.pdf) Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: stuving on August 03, 2017, 16:31:03 Stuff now appearing thanks to a track access application posted elsewhere, I've pulled out just the Reading and Windsor lines changes as I expect they could be of most interest: If you peer at the footnotes in the service requirement charts, all of FMSWT's proposals do seem to be offered as options. No doubt their swapping bits of route between services will please some and annoy others; so it goes. One awkward change which will annoy a few (possibly very few) is not running the Hounslow loop stoppers on to Virginia Water, but starting a separate Weybridge service there. Worse, initially they will be using the same trains and running them ECS Hounslow-VW; I can see that going down well. That means that from e.g. Kew Bridge out towards Reading is no longer one change at e.g. Staines, but change at Hounslow and again by Staines (only 2 tph to Windsor will go via Houslow and turn right). Changing at Twickenham might be faster, but at the moment it's not valid on the cheapest ticket. But why do they put so much of their advertising spiel into a TA? Do they really think ORR and NR are susceptible to it? Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: paul7575 on August 03, 2017, 17:58:55 But why do they put so much of their advertising spiel into a TA? Do they really think ORR and NR are susceptible to it? Does look a bit downmarket including that sort of 'multi coloured kiddie's guide' doesn't it... Looking at the changes across the board, including the mainline side, there's very little there that's actually extra, compared to now. Similarly, not much that wasn't specified in the ITT, e.g. 4 tph to Reading and Windsor. As you say regarding the Staines and Virginia Water area, its the detail of what is required to be changed to provide the headline 'improvements' that will gradually trickle out. You'll see the amazing new Portsmouth Weymouth - service is just the existing routes split and rejoined, and as an another example the 4 tph Waterloo to Portsmouth all day is really just a case of running the peak extra trains all day. The extra semi fast Portsmouth to Southampton may be a real bonus - depending on exactly when in the hour it runs it could ease the crowding on the GWR Cardiff service significantly, but not if it runs a few minutes behind it... Paul Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: bradshaw on August 09, 2017, 09:56:59 This courtesy of the 'Railway Eye'
Quote This from First/MTR... FirstGroup unveiled the senior management team for the new South Western train operating company today, ahead of the franchise starting on Sunday 20 August. In addition to Andy Mellors, previously announced as Managing Director, several senior directors have now been appointed. The senior team at the new South Western rail franchise contains a wealth of railway experience and brings experience in customer service from a world-leading airline. Jacqui Dey has been appointed as Operations Director with responsibility for the driver, resourcing, planning, performance and operational standards teams. Jacqui has previously held senior rail leadership roles, including Operations and Safety Director at First ScotRail. Gerard O’Hanlon, from FirstGroup’s franchise bidding team, will provide additional support to Jacqui, particularly in relation to planning and performance activities where we will continue to operate joint teams with Network Rail. Neil Drury, who led the rolling stock planning in the successful South Western franchise bid, has been appointed as Engineering Director. Neil is a Chartered Engineer who joined FirstGroup in 2004. He has had a number of roles in First Rail franchises, including Head of Engineering at First Capital Connect, prior to joining FirstGroup’s franchise bidding team in 2014. Alan Penlington joins from Virgin Atlantic as Customer Experience Director to lead the on-board, stations and revenue protection teams. He brings valuable experience to help transform customer experience having most recently been Head of Cabin Crew Operations and Senior Manager Customer Experience-Innovation at the transatlantic airline. Joost Noordewier will be Commercial and Business Development Director. Joost joined FirstGroup in 2005 and led FirstGroup’s successful bid for the TransPennine Express franchise, as well as the subsequent mobilisation of the franchise. Chris Cornthwaite has been appointed as Finance Director. He brings a wealth of experience to the new franchise having previously been Finance Director at First Capital Connect, as well as a number of roles supporting franchise development within FirstGroup. Seamus Scallon, Safety Director, First Rail, will act as Safety, Sustainability and Security Director, pending a permanent appointment into this role. Eye notes that none of the existing Stagecoach senior team are transferring over to the new First/MTR franchise. That sound? That is the sound of corporate knowledge trickling away... Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: Oberon on August 09, 2017, 21:36:30 For all the brave sounding words here I am not convinced of the new company's ability to get to grips with the South Western franchise. I admit to only using the Exeter-Waterloo line myself but when I saw no replacement for the class 159s during the franchise period - let alone greater capacity in track and signalling - I must admit my heart sank..
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: ellendune on August 09, 2017, 23:55:15 For all the brave sounding words here I am not convinced of the new company's ability to get to grips with the South Western franchise. I admit to only using the Exeter-Waterloo line myself but when I saw no replacement for the class 159s during the franchise period - let alone greater capacity in track and signalling - I must admit my heart sank.. Urrrr... ...what is wrong with a class 159? They are like the 158s which I regard as very good trains. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: Timmer on August 10, 2017, 10:55:21 For all the brave sounding words here I am not convinced of the new company's ability to get to grips with the South Western franchise. I admit to only using the Exeter-Waterloo line myself but when I saw no replacement for the class 159s during the franchise period - let alone greater capacity in track and signalling - I must admit my heart sank.. Neither am I Oberon but that is mainly down to my biased feelings towards First Group and their ability of running the Great Western franchise and buses in the Bath and Bristol area. My heart sank when I saw they had won the South West franchise and to see them clear out the current management who have successfully run South West Trains for many years is a little concerning.However, I'm prepared to give First/MTR the benefit of the doubt and give them a chance. Sometimes change can be a good thing. Their plans for the franchise look good but can they deliver? Time will tell. For those wishing to see the back of Stagecoach...be careful for what you wish for may come into play. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: Oberon on August 10, 2017, 21:39:06 Depending on how hacked off Stagecoach are at losing SWT this might provoke them putting together a KILLER BID, when the time comes, for the GWR franchise. Now wouldn't that be a good thing. Perhaps members of this forum might suggest some of the content of such a prospective bid.
Replacement 4 car units to replace158s, 3rd platform at Chippenham, Bristol-Oxford, eventually Cambridge service? These sorts of ideas. There's a lot to play for.. On the other hand this dismissal might mean Stagecoach walks away from railways altogether. If this wasn't so serious it would be a bundle of laughs.. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: John R on August 10, 2017, 21:48:11 On the other hand this dismissal might mean Stagecoach walks away from railways altogether. If this wasn't so serious it would be a bundle of laughs.. As well as East Midlands Trains they own 90% of Virgin East Coast and 50% (?) of Virgin West Coast, so quite a lot to walk away from, even if VEC is a bit of a basket case financially currently. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: Timmer on August 10, 2017, 21:59:33 On the other hand this dismissal might mean Stagecoach walks away from railways altogether. If this wasn't so serious it would be a bundle of laughs.. They are involved in a bid with Virgin/SNCF for the new West Coast franchise, a very big fish. Though they could soon be in trouble with the East Coast franchise if the curse of the 'over bid' strikes again. I fully expect them to go for the GW franchise. Maybe they put in a bid for the SW franchise that wasn't ever going to win focusing on the new upcoming franchise renewals. After all they couldn't agree terms with Dft on a franchise extension. Trouble ahead on the SW line perhaps? Today's interview with Andy Mellors started the firing gun with the unions over the roll of the guard on SW services. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: Oberon on August 11, 2017, 15:26:31 They would be foolish to downgrade the position of guards on SW trains
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: JayMac on August 11, 2017, 16:09:56 They may not have a choice. Required to do the government's bidding, implementing McNulty, and be the buffer for the inevitable conflict with the RMT, and maybe ASLEF too.
What is franchising for? Shielding the government. Particularly when it is of a blue hue. I find it perfectly believable that Stagecoach's bid including a promise to keep guards on all services. That being a reason their bid was unsuccessful. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: Timmer on August 11, 2017, 17:03:23 I find it perfectly believable that Stagecoach's bid including a promise to keep guards on all services. That being a reason their bid was unsuccessful. Deliberately so?Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: ChrisB on August 15, 2017, 12:00:17 It may be a requirement of the franchise?....Similar to Southern/GTR.
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: paul7575 on August 15, 2017, 12:15:34 It may be a requirement of the franchise?....Similar to Southern/GTR. It isn't mentioned in the Southwestern ITT, except in the context of a standard requirement for any new rolling stock to include the hardware capability (a bit like the IEPs). The Southern (i.e. TSGN) ITT was completely different in regards to this subject, but even it did not explicitly ask for more DOO operation to be brought in, it just reads that existing DOO operation had to be maintained.Paul Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: ChrisB on August 15, 2017, 12:29:19 There will be confidential clauses agreed that don't appear in the public domain
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: SandTEngineer on August 18, 2017, 21:47:16 SWT have published a 'Goodbye' document: http://www.stagecoach.com/about/our-companies/src=/~/media/Files/S/Stagecoach-Group/Attachments/pdf/swt-supplement-mr-edition.pdf
Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: chrisr_75 on August 21, 2017, 09:43:10 And so it begins:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40965413 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40965413) Quote BBC: The new South Western rail franchise holder has been criticised by a union for allegedly refusing to guarantee a second staff member on board its forthcoming trains. FirstGroup takes over on Sunday amid ongoing disputes over driver-operated doors and the role of train guards. The company said it would be "retaining a second person" on board trains. The RMT union said in talks the firm refused to provide a guarantee "despite what they have been telling the press". cntd Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: stuving on November 28, 2017, 13:49:49 SWR have been finger-pointing at SWT in public about giving up on maintenance and cleaning after they found they would lose the franchise - unless the BBC invented that entirely.
This was on BBC South this morning. While the SWR suit only promised a new, cleaner, future for hie trains, Paul Clifton, the voice over, and the studio introduction all made that specific claim about SWT. They showed a "deep clean", though it didn't look so very deep to me, saying there hadn't been one for ages. But surely it takes more than six months to get a train that grubby? This is all rather unusual, and out of line with the agreement among bits of "the railway" (which may be unwritten) not to use blame and point-scoring against each other. Oddly, the trains I've though looked a bit sad were the revised 458s - maybe because I knew they'd been rebuilt, and all the interiors altered, but then found must of the floors and seats unchanged. Title: Re: First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged Post by: stuving on November 28, 2017, 22:45:20 This was on BBC South this morning. While the SWR suit only promised a new, cleaner, future for hie trains, Paul Clifton, the voice over, and the studio introduction all made that specific claim about SWT. They showed a "deep clean", though it didn't look so very deep to me, saying there hadn't been one for ages. But surely it takes more than six months to get a train that grubby? This evening's BBC South introduction quantified a "deep clean"; SWR say they do one every 30 days where SWT did them every 210 days. (That's longer than from franchise announcement to end, of course.) Sounds more like part of a routine cleaning schedule to me, but it's still rather childishly "cleanlier than thou". This page is printed from the "Coffee Shop" forum at http://gwr.passenger.chat which is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway. Views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that content provided contravenes our posting rules ( see http://railcustomer.info/1761 ). The forum is hosted by Well House Consultants - http://www.wellho.net |