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Interesting item buried in the Hitachi Stock article in Cornish Newspapers this week

From December 2018 GWR will lay on two trains an hour from Penzance to Plymouth, using cut-down and refurbished old HST trains, which are being replaced by the new Hitachi units.

The more frequent service will require signalling improvements in Cornwall to reduce delays.

The new four-carriage trains are being having their slam doors replaced by modern sliding doors. The first of these is in the works already.

Eventually, it is understood, GWR will extend this service to Exeter. The company is working with Cornwall Council and Network Rail, and council chiefs hope for a "clockface" timetable, in which trains will run throughout the day at the same times past the hour.

from

http://www.cornwalllive.com/xxnew-trainsxx/story-30362217-detail/story.html

11 HST sets with 4 passenger carriages. To replace some units in Devon/Cornwall and between Cardiff and Taunton

The first cut down set, with power door and retention toilets, is due to begin operating passenger services later in the summer. I've heard between Cardiff and Taunton, but could be in Devon/Cornwall. 

Not actually new news though?

Paul

To some of us, no. But not everyone on this forum, or in the wider world, keeps up with the minutiae of rolling stock developments. To the OP, and readers of the Cornwall Live website (and its associated print media), this may well be new news.

The first set is planned for the 0600 Penzance to Cardiff starting mid July if everything is to plan.
I understand all of the green powercars have had the wiring upgrades

It just goes to show what a great train the HST really is that it will continue in service for years to come both in the West Country and Scotland. Who knows where next? I don't see many being scrapped anytime soon.

They've already earned the nickname "Pocket Rockets"

First time I've heard of 'Pocket Rocket' being used. The nickname I've noticed more is 'HST GTi'!  :D

Those who have parted with their money for a Guide to Services book (£5 from main GWR stations  ;) ) will already be able to see the diagrams the first GTi set will be working. For everyone else...

From 11 September 2017

Mondays to Fridays

0600 Penzance to Exeter St Davids (not Cardiff Central. A service from St James' Park to Cardiff Central will run in its place)
1017 Exeter St Davids to Penzance
1345 Penzance to Plymouth
1557 Plymouth to Penzance
1916 Penzance to Plymouth
2242 Plymouth to Penzance (Mondays to Thursdays only. HST from PAD runs in its place on Fridays)

Sundays

1943 Plymouth to Penzance

Must do the 1217 Exeter to Penzance if it gets into Penzance in time to form the 1345 back to Plymouth.

My mistake. Was meant to be 1017! Have edited it to avoid confusion.

Are you going to need a bicycle reservation to use this service? (That's if you have a bicycle, obviously!)

If GWR are converting some HSTs for shorter journeys, could I suggest a new route from Taunton, Bristol TM, Bristol, PW, Cheltenham and Worcester? The number of times I have to stand on parts of this journey because Cross Country trains do not have enough capacity

The conversion is to meet the requirements for capacity on current routes, it doesn't allow for new routes.  I also believe it is not a permanent addition to the fleet, once the DMU cascade is complete they'll go.

There are already plans to adjust capacity on the XC route.  XC will be running 2 tph by extending from Bristol to Exeter on the opposite half hour to now, and the gaps in the XC extensions south of Exeter (i.e. to Paignton) are intended to be filled (eventually) by additional GW services.

Paul

They'll certainly move on from Devon/Cornwall.

If they're being upgraded with sliding doors, retention toilets (including an accessible toilet), they certainly won't be scrapped though. Any info out there yet as to where they might be going to/leased to?

Regarding Graham's question on cycle reservations...they will not carry reservations and as such will be unable to book. These will have the same conditions as units currently do where it's simply first come, first served.

I doubt there is any info yet, although it's a moot point whether the ROSCO would have committed to the cost without some guarantee of continued use beyond 2019.  There is also the point that this represents a significant step up in quality of services between Bristol and the South West, and politically it will be seen as a very retrograde step to replace them with units after only a couple of years.  So I suspect they may have a longer term future on the route than some are suggesting.

I think that will depend on a), whether the TOC or ROSCO is paying for this upgrade, and b) who wins the next franchise. With these short-formed HSTs to be the only ones left with GWR at the end of this franchise, it may be commercial sense to go with more 80x stock than keep maintenance facilities for just a few HSTs?

What about when (if) they are used on the services originating in Cardiff? I.e. Taunton & Portsmouth? Last time I travelled on one of the Portsmouth services reservations were available...

Partly an academic point while HSTs cannot operate the Portsmouth service, they are out of gauge between Southampton and Fareham.

I actually expect they'll have a relatively short life following this temporary expediency.   They are still pretty old stock at the end of the day, and the improvements being made to reflect 2020 requirements don't actually make them into useful general purpose DMU replacements, they are still end door long distance stock.   Eventually someone will bite the bullet and scrap them.

Paul

The modifications will be pretty expensive, particularly the doors, so there must be some prospect of a longer life. As to who is paying, you can be sure that GWR is not ultimately bearing the cost given that a) the problem is of their making and b) the franchise ends shortly after their introduction.

Do we know whether these HST's are the ones owned by First Group or by one of the ROSCOs?  That would have quite an influence on the financial circumstances behind the initiative. But either way, if the owner is paying for it themselves then they will need some certainty of getting a return on their investment.

Comment earlier about having the whole shortened fleet at one base eventually - Craigentinny, operating the initial fleet Glasgow and Edinburgh to Aberdeen and Inverness.   Logic suggests that if they're liked on the long long distance expresses they could also cover shorter services.   Perhaps Barry Links will replace Pewsey as the only station served exclusively by HSTs!

It would make definite sense that they all end up being maintained by just one depot. So eventually, Scotrail?

Don't First only own 5 HSTs? And thsy're converting more than that, aren't they?

On another forum, I read that the First Group owned sets (or the power cars, at least) are included in the project but there aren't enough of those and a similar number of Angel trains power cars (not sure about coaches) will also get the modifications.

I think that is only true if the stock uses one of the two bogie suspension types in use (short swing versus long swing IIRC).  It is possible that these reconfigured HSTs will use the compatible type of bogie or that NR will sort out the gauging issue

No it's not. There is an area of limited clearance they can't go through as they foul the structure. 153s can't work that part neither

The curve at St Denys perhaps?

Class 43 power cars are barred from using the stretch of line between St Denys and Fareham. Clearance issues on Hamble Viaduct. The prohibition on this stretch of line is nothing to do with Mk3 bogie swing links.

HSTs to Portsmouth would have to go via Chandlers Ford, Eastleigh and Botley to Fareham, missing the important stop at Southampton, or reverse at Eastleigh after Southampton. Neither would be suitable for daily timetabled services and franchise commitments.

As these are imminent, are there any pictures anywhere of these cutdown trains?

As mentioned above, was due to start on the 11th September, but I believe they may be a little delayed. Also I think initially it's just the one unit, with others to follow next year.

Yes, definitely one initially and I've been hearing that it has been a bit delayed too.  In the "HSTs for 2020" piece in the new Modern Railways, it says the refurbished set will be released in early November.

Short formed HST's operating on GWR won't be happening due to the condition of the MkIII's.

Project cancelled then? What's the plan going forward...keeping DMUs due to head North?

They're running these MkIIIs now - so why not in short-form?

I expect short forming is not the actual problem, I bet it will be the power door and DDA mods that are proving either more difficult (or less cost effective) than the prior publicity ever expected.

Paul

Rumour rather than any official confirmation from the very limited look around I've done.   Of course rumours do have a habit of turning out to be true sometimes!

Hypothetical ... if true, a real spanner in the work of the plans as we know them, but (as someone commented the other day) there should be contingency plans in place.  We may see class 230 and 319 flex, and I'm not sure that all of the 153s going off lease are spoken for. When are the Mk4s being released from the East Coast, and would they fit between class 43s - they are newer and already have plug doors; if no-one else wants them ...

40+ year old vehicles with major structural changes

Sounds like the tin worm has rendered more of them beyond economic/sensible repair than was originally anticipated? Some of the GWR coaches seemed to look really scabby, particularly in/around the vestibules, so I am not surprised they have discovered some of them are in a bad way.

What does this mean for Scotrail's plans I wonder?

Was just about to ask, could be very serious for the plan for them to take over Scotrail's long distance services.

It seriously begs the question if building your entire franchise plan around bringing 40+ years rolling stock to Scotland is a sensible idea.

I know the HST is a wonderful train but it can't go on forever.

Enough available to cover for ScotRail, but more of the vehicles beyond sensible repair than anticipated (I assume some assessment of their condition has recently been carried out), so plans cancelled for GWR, as they were only a temporary fix anyway.

Does seem very strange since there is the big piece in the current Modern Railways and a lot of people who should know about this sort of thing have been very positive about the idea for a long time now.   I think the original poster needs to go back to whoever told him/her that the short formed HSTs wouldn't be happening.

In term of plug doors and the toilets, they are cutting the old ones off and adding new - evidently this is easiest and the ends are where there is most corrosion.   

A source would be very helpful for this.

With both XC and GWR Mk3s going through the conversion work at Doncaster at the moment, it seems a little hard to believe the project has been canned.

Not nevessarily canned, just not enough hood coaches for both Scotrail (who will get priority) and GWR.

Question is, how would you know until you started work to convert them if they are hood sorry good enough?

They have started, haven't they?

And your source for that?

They have. With posts on other forums from engineering staff suggesting the work continues apace.

They are chopping the ends off where the corrosion is, and rebuilding the ends. thus the worst of the corrosion should be removed anyway.
Saying that I know one of the sleeper carriage upgrades was stopped as they found it to be so bad.

Ps RichardB hope you enjoyed your trip on the step entrance Dennis Dart on Sunday ;)

"Not necessarily"...is key. No source needed

On rail forums there are 2 engineers both saying they are still happening as of yesterday.
Drivers are posting there they are cancelled.
Mess room gossip?
The cross country set is first in line at the works.
They wouldn't know if there was adequate good sets until they are examined for the work. Only the sets already at the work have been examined so far for the work

Your post read as if you knew the work was now only being done to Mk3's destined for ScotRail. You should make it clear you are guessing.

Elsewhere there continue to be posts pouring cold water on what has been said here by a-driver. Posts from engineering staff at Wabtec. Posts from GWR depot staff. And posts saying timetable planners and depot resource staff are still expecting it to happen.

What we have is a lone voice saying it's not happening, versus many voices who've heard the conversion work continues.

Not a peep from the rail press either. Not in publications, nor from individual contributors on social media. In fact, one publication carries a feature on the conversion work in its latest edition.

They could all be wrong of course and one driver may have got a scoop. But that scoop needs to be backed up with much more information. A one line post on two forums doesn't sell it for me.

Calm down! No one is suggesting the work is stopping. Just that it may be that GWR might not be getting these trains. Just a rumour at present from someone in a position closer to the horses mouth than most on this forum. I'm sure it will be confirmed one way or t'other in due course, no need to be so defensive.

It could very well be that on closer examination that corrosion on some of these coaches is bad enough that they cannot be converted - as they're a monocoque design it won't take an awful lot to render them unsuitable for significant repairs, with the possible result that insufficient 'good' coaches are available to cover the original plan.

Thanks Richard.  Yes, I certainly did.  Sorry I didn't say hello.  After the trip back from the Plym Valley, I did the Sir Francis Drake on a lovely trip round the Hoe, down Royal Parade, round the Hoe again and over to the Royal William Yard.  I thought it was a great event.

On the subject of the shortformed HSTs, of course it would leave a big hole in GWR's rolling stock plans if they were to prove to be not feasible.   We all know what the railway grapevine is like - sometimes it is right, other times wrong.  My money is on wrong this time. 

The chap I was with is another Forum member Palfers, although he doesn't appear to have posted in a while!

A Penzance engineer had reiterated the project is still ongoing.

The Network Rail chairman was in the area today. When he was asked about this he said he was unaware of any cancellations to the project.

Make of that what you will.

Welcome to the forum, Cornish bobby.

We're tending to thing that the project hasn't been cancelled.  However, I'm not sure that the chair of Network Rail would necessarily be one go the first to be aware; he's got a lot on his plate looking after infrastructure and signalling without worrying about exactly what's going to be running on his tracks. 

The chairman wouldn't necessarily have a detailed knowledge of operational matters anyway, his or her responsibility in the company framework is to ensure that the board operates effectively. The Chief Executive and more likely the executive directors are those people who would have a more detailed working knowledge of the business, but even then I doubt NR directors would know that much about operational matters in the TOC's.

I think everyone is in agreement that the project, the primary beneficiary being ScotRail, clearly has not been cancelled (I am a little puzzled as to why this appears to be causing some agitation), just that there are some hints it may be modified in some way. Time will no doubt reveal the final status of this project.

Yes appreciate that but thought it was worth mentioning.

This is news to the MD of GWR....who was on my train from BRI this morning (not sure where he & his family boarded, but on the way to the OOC open day)....he confirmed that the test train is still in Doncaster being converted, then the ones destined for Scotrail are to be converted & then he is still expecting 11 sets of these trains for GWR.

Make of that what you wish, but I thought I'd take the opportunity to ask....

As written, that suggests that the GWR deliveries will not start until the Scotrail fleet is finished. That would mean at least a change to the early arrival of one or more sets on GWR, which might well have triggered the earlier news/rumour/speculation abut cancellation.

Did you in fact understand that as what yer man said?

yes, he said they'd get them "eventually"

Scotrail have had a contract for a while with the RoSCOs that own the HSTs to take them on / over.  It would be a pretty costly exercise to breach said contract, so that's the first call on HSTs as their released, and indeed if the release isn't fast enough to meet the contract as IEP replacements take over, some duties may be taken over by turbos. Which of course means that those turbos aren't (yet) available for the West fleet.

Perhaps the "not happening" post that caused a bit of a shake was short formed (2 words rather than 3) and should have read "not happening yet"?

Quite possibly.

Bear in mind that these short HSTs are to be used in Cornwall to provide the clockface 2tph service. I don't think said turbos could fill in the gaps though, should they not arrive in time?

Wasn't suggesting Turbos that far west.   Turbos that are due into Bristol area may end up temporarily running ex-HST diagrams in the Thames Valley, to the detriment (for a while) of Bristol area increased capacity, and to the detriment (for a while) of releases from Bristol to further west.   Apparently telling the Scots to be patient and we're all a bit delayed isn't considered to be a viable option as they have a pretty strong contract for the ex-GWR HST at a point after the date that GWR thought they wouldn't need them any more, but before the date they actually don't need them any more.

Have to hope too that the IEP introduction into public service goes smoothly - any glitches on that would be very awkward all round.

Oh, ok, you were referring to the current HSTs?, rather than the cut down ones we were discussing?

Indeed, a possibility - these current HSTs will be going to Doncaster as projected to provide the cut-downs for Scotrail, but whether the IEPs that are going to be replacing them are delayed - there's no indication yet, is there?

I also think that the OP left out a word from the alarming 'news' too....."yet"

At least its in true railway tradition and running late!

There are already 'glitches' with the IEP trains apparently; another topic on this forum has been discussing electrical interference issues with the IEP trains. We'll just have to hope they get the glitches sorted in time for introduction of sufficient new units in time to release the IC125s that have to go.

That's infrastructure, not an 80x problem...these could run on bi-mode where the wires are late to release the HSTs on time

How is it infrastructure when the GWR Electrostars are running fine without said interference issues? Where there are no wires that is Network Rail's problem, but the Reading-Didcot stretch has wires that apparently Electrostars can use without problems but 800s cannot. That's just what I've read on forums but if true I can't see how the interference issues experienced when an 800 uses the OHLE are Network Rail's problem. Also from the forums, it sounds like the Reading-Didcot OHLE is needed for the 800s to keep time, if they run on diesel they will not run on time (but that might be without the engines increased to class 802 power output, I'm not sure).

your last sentence is correct, so keep your fingers crossed that the DfT will pick up the unmuzzled cost....

If unmuzzled, my point stands....they could run on diesel if interference remains a problem over a section. But yes, ideally it needs fixing - and you may have a point over infrastructure/80x problem. We'll need to await the diagnosis

A Penzance based Driver (I believe that’s his role) has posted on the Cornish railways group on Facebook, that the first cut down hst will be in service in November and for diagramming will be designated class 255

But, to my knowledge, only one power car has had the modifications to work the cut down HST sets.

I’ve been led to believe the power cars painted green have had the panels installed.

As far as I know, only one green power car has visible modifications made in the driving cab

I noticed today that many platforms in Cornwall have 2 +4 HST stop markers.

Into Devon too. Spotted '2+4 HST' stop markers at Both Dawlish and Dawlish Warren yesterday.

Are you still of the opinion that the running of shortened sets with GWR is not going to happen?

Also at Teignmouth - as spotted this afternoon

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/24tgm.jpg)

It’s gone back to January 2018 now. I’m now 50/50 on wether they will happen.

The person responsible for ordering 'stop markers' is seemingly more certain than 50/50.  ;D

Ah but it depends when they were ordered!!!!!!   ;D

mmm...very inspiring planters in the sign snap!

The person responsible for putting up the 'stop markers' is seemingly more certain than 50/50.

Hmm, too.  ::)

However, I do have some sympathy with whoever arranged for those fairly modest planters to be placed on that platform, for two reasons:

Firstly, they have to be set back (as far as possible) from the platform edge, allowing passengers to pass unimpeded along the platform, and (you will note from that image) they should be secured against something substantial, such as railings, to prevent them being shoved onto the track;

Secondly, they are generally provided by a volunteer group, such as a Community Rail Partnership, who may have limited funds and personnel to install and maintain them.

Teignmouth station, down in a cutting, isn't perhaps the best place to try to offer a 'Chelsea Flower Show floral display' in any such planters - but fair play to whoever did put them there, as anything is better than nothing, in terms of making bare platforms less stark.

 :)

The person responsible for putting up the signs is under instruction from a manager, who receives their instruction from a more senior manager. Now the management chain is quite long so the command to erect the signs could have been issued a long while ago and has only just reached the bottom!!

The latest I’ve heard, 2+4 are a no but 2+5’s could be a possibility!

It would appear that GWR have named these trains "Class 43 Castle"s.

How very appropriate - Castles were built at a time of uncertainty with the expectation of an intense but limited life. They have turned out to have lasted very much longer and have a heavy use today, all be it in a very different way to what they were designed for in the first place.

Which castle names should be selected?

Barbara? Andrew? Roy?

Dragonstone? Winterfell? 

:P :) ;D

I understand the floral displays have been planted and maintained by the station staff at Teignmouth.  This also included some attractive hanging baskets on the Victorian footbridge. Currently that is away being refurbished so perhaps they are waiting for it to return and then go to the garden centre once in preparation for the spring.

So, what is to become of the Class 57 'Castles' ?

The 57s, once based at Long Rock, can be renamed after Cornish heroes:
57601 Myghal Josep An Gof
57602 Bishop Jonathan Trelawny
57603 Richard Trevithick
57604 Jethro

;)

What no Ross Poldark !😠😎

What about that true Cornishman    Pa Sty?

Camelot.
(sotto voce) It’s only a model.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1802602319751130&id=100000041374657 ;D

Edit: Whoops, just realised we already have a thread running for this elsewhere (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=18332.0 ).  Could the moderators please shift my post and delete this topic....... :P

No problem, SandTEngineer.  ;)

I've moved your new topic and merged it here (also taking the opportunity to expand this current topic heading, purely in the interests of clarity and ease of future reference), and without posting a 'this topic has been moved' link.

With any luck, nobody will notice that you made a muck-up.  ;) :D ;D

I thought I saw a hst 4 stabled at Laira on Wednesday morning as I passed, but then concluded I had it wrong as it was in blue! Thanks for confirming I probably wasn’t seeing things

Why are these trains sitting in Laira doing nothing when there is a desperate need for HST stock on diagrams which are being shortformed/run by 3 car Turbos instead due to GWR's HSTs heading up to Scotland too soon?

Although it may seem so, no HSTs have gone to Scotland too soon   They have to go at the end of their lease and in accordance with the agreed date between DFT and Transport for Scotland,   IEPs are replacing them so on paper there are sufficient trains..   The problem is that there are too many out of service for repairs.

"On paper" is not really much use........I still cannot fathom why HSTs with all their capabilities are going to being used to pootle between Plymouth and Penzance whilst areas such as the Cotswold Line are having to cram people onto 3 car Turbos for peak services where HSTs are needed and have traditionally been used (that's assuming there is anyone to drive them of course).

It's akin to using an F1 car on the school run whilst taking a Ford Escort to Silverstone.

A direct swap for the rest of this year (that's 2 weeks) is probably out because:
* Few if any Cornishmen know how to drive a Turbo
* Turbos are too wide of the narrow lanes tracks of Devon and Cornwall

Come the new year ....
1. Electric trains take over Maidenhead to Didcot
2. Released turbos take over Bristol locals  such as to Worcester, Westbury and Weymouth
3. Released 150s go to the Cornish Main Line
4. HSTs on any local Cornish work can go the the North Cotswold line
5. Further released turbos can move to services such as Cardiff to Portsmouth
6. Released 158s can head out further west.

I didn't notice, at least not until I read this...


Mrs FT, N! is fond of Coch, she tells me.

More to the point - why no Sir Bevil Grenville (https://www.cornwallforever.co.uk/people/sir-bevil-grenville)?   :o

Because the Castle Class is new traction; they will have their own class number.
Therefore only a small number of staff currently sign them.

...........Aren't they just HSTs with 4 carriages rather than 8?

Braking characteristics are different, which is why they could be limited to a maximum of 75mph for a start.

 Not many places between Plymouth and Penzance where they
 can run at 75 m.p.h. are their ?

No.  But they are also going to run to Exeter and Bristol as well.  Pleanty of 100mph+ track East of Starcross.

Hayle to Marazion

So i presume with test runs taking place we're close to seeing these trains entering service, if so when might we see them? Will they arrive as the timetable changes next week?

They haven't even been converted yet so won't see them for a while yet.

The first set has been converted, testing took place earlier this month.

Picture at the bottom of Taunton Train News http://www.tauntontrains.co.uk/news

Just to be slightly pedantic, the set used in the test was not actually a converted set - just a 2+4 set using existing slam door stock and power cars going off-lease.

Very good point Phil, 4 car testing has taken place, but the coaches hadn't been converted to power doors and other mods etc. Hopefully start running over the next few months

It would be a great shame if they were limited to 75 mph.  Presumably if they were lengthened to 5 coaches the top speed could be eased up. 

Someone involved in the project has been commenting on railforums regarding the ‘wibble’ that they hadn’t been converted yet, and confirmed the first set is almost ready to go with just several minor technical issues to resolve. He says it should be out within a month.

A well placed source informs me the first set will be delivered to GWR by 20th February. Into passenger service in March. Then one set a month. 12 sets in total.

This corresponds with the information I have received

Did it arrive?

I was told 27th...

Did I hear the first set would be without power doors for now?

In searching through last night (for a picture of a red HST - don't ask!) I came across the "Virgin Challenger" - a five car HST that was in use around the time of Voyager introduction - pictures at http://www.tauntontrains.co.uk/oldsite/HST.htm on Taunton Trains - 14th and 15th pictures down.

Logic suggests to me that if the conversion is far, far slower than was expected, could not HSTs being retired from regular HST runs be "challenged" and run in service that way, then converted as the shops in Doncaster (?) have capacity.  Downers I can see are the station dwell times would need to allow an extra minute or so for door closing, and conversion of loos would need to be completed in any case for 2020.

Very simple answer.............. Yes

There are additional costs in running a full HST over the 5car cutdown. Both NR and fuel....

Some great memories looking back at some of these pictures, but am intrigued what the guy is doing on the line in the second picture?

The caption says it's 1908, so anything was possible then!!

Is this clockface service stopping at all stations on the Cornish Main Line?
Saltash; St Germans; Menheniot; Liskeard; Bodmin; Lostwithiel; Par; St Austell; Truro; Redruth; Camborne; Hayle; St Erth; Penzance.

Don't know ... but the very first cutdown HST is planned for the 06:00 off Penzance which is one of the very few services still to call at Menheniot.  So they can call at even the smallest stations.

First set returning south Tomorrow night....

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O80173/2018/03/12/advanced

Running in?

There were suggestions that some of the planned changes may not have happened.  Do we know if it's got retention toilets? Automatic doors? Green paint? Battery or hydrogen power?  Electronic seat reservation and destination indicators? A buffet?

Seats? Doors? Carriage ends? I imagine the later will reduce speed if they’re absent!  ;D

Needs a driver mind.

Do such things exist?

Unless a driver can make do on 3 hours' kip at EXD, they'll need two. Just when more than usual need repairs.

......drivers or trains?

A 47 and 2 barrier vehicles collected the 4 carriages,

Left Doncaster 95 late. Just passed Abbotswood junction 51 late, so it’s shifting well.

Facebook group video shows the 4 carriages, confirming no power cars in the formation. Plug doors, except on the cycle door which is still slam and not in contrasting colours.   Look nice from what I could tell in a short video of the train passing though Temple Meads.

Definitely shifting - arrived at Laira 235 early!

The first set of re-engineered carriages will be out testing in Devon & Cornwall this weekend.

Work on interior fittings continues at Laira.

Some video of it here departing DAWLISH station:
https://youtu.be/534a-OzSS50

Some photographs of the set on the Cornwall Railway Society website, including internal ones, here: http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/news---latest-reports-and-photographs

Available in public service from Monday, 26th March on....
2E12 – 0600 Penzance to Exeter;
2C45 – 0924 Exeter to Penzance;
2A85 – 1257 Penzance to Newton Abbot;
2P49 – 1555 Newton Abbot to Plymouth (which then continues to Penzance)

2C48 15 57 Plymouth to Penzance
2P96 20 18 Penzance to Plymouth
2C54 22 42 Plymouth to Penzance (SX)

2C48 is 1755 Plymouth to Penzance.

Sorry. My mistake, 1755 is the correct service

I got an e-mail today from Mark Hopwood that said the first service was likely to be a 05 30 Ply - Pnz on Thursday.

That’s the down sleeper’s path.

 Had a good look at one yesterday, quite smart although the single door 'sliding' does look a bit odd.

 But seems to work fine, no disabled wheel-chair space though.

..not on the first set but there should be on the subsequent sets

In service today....

...and broken today!

Oh no - what happened?

Door failure and apparently the wabtec engineers have gone home for easter

That started well then  ;D

Was out yesterday until it failed at Bodmin Parkway on 1755 ex Plymouth due to door fault.   Units today

Running as a 2+3 set today, the other coach is at Longrock having problems.

I reckon about 50% reliability so far!

Reported elsewhere as very bad wheel flats.

Different report I heard, the version I heard of was a Water Tank problem.   We won't argue about it nut at least doesn't seem to be a door fault.

I was told definitely not a door fault today.

The short hst is being joined by a 158 on a Penzance diagram from May!!

Short, or short short?

Thinks....
How short does a short set have to be, to fit into the Exchange Siding at Bodmin Parkway?  A two-car 150 has done it, but I can't recall anything bigger.
HST Bodmin General to Plymouth, anyone?
(With some incredibly complex shunting if the siding can only take 2 vehicles at a time!)

No crossover at Bodmin Parkway, so reversal would have to be elsewhere (Lostwithiel or Liskeard).

If Largin-Bodmin Parkway were bi-directional, it could just come off the single stretch from Plymouth on the 'up line'. Too bad the branch connection was severed at the eastern end of Bodmin Parkway. 

The lone Castle Class  HST set is back up to 4 carriages today. Finn and I have just bagged it from Saltash to Plymouth.

Crossed over to the 1500 PLY-PAD at Plymouth, taking that as far as Newton Abbot, so I can then take the mini-me HST back west.

(https://preview.ibb.co/b3cc6n/rps20180412_150848.jpg)
(https://preview.ibb.co/iyVKK7/rps20180412_150919.jpg)

Hope you had your passport(s) to make that trip BNM..... ;)

Free to get into Cornwall. No border control. It's the getting back to civilisation that may be the issue... ;D

One the seventh day, God made Cornwall.

https://vimeo.com/41724325 (https://vimeo.com/41724325)

This is the birthplace of civilisation !

Will Coleman ee make us some proud - Kernow bys Vycken Braman Gas An Sousen

Now about these here trains !!

Lovely video


I think I'm showing my age, or my lack of knowledge of Cornish / Kernewek ... but welcome to the forum anyway Geoff DC.  If another member could fill me in, I would be grateful  ;D.

To quote "Blazing Saddles", that's authentic frontier gibberish! 🙂

Meur ras, Geoff DC, und willkommen au forum de la Salle de Café «Grand Ouest», amigo!

(I get by, y'know)


I'll be round after tea. :)

What is the set made up of - is it all standard class coaches?
No buffet / first class?

It's always been a solution to a shortage of the preferred or intended pairs of 158s.   Shouldn't really be seen as a future intercity service at all.

Paul

Indeed, I'd be surprised if they are in use for more than 10 years, and it could be substantially less than that should the new franchise go the way of Greater Anglia, Northern and SWR and do an almost wholesale fleet replacement.

The cut down HSTs are a stop gap for regional services on GWR. They should be replaced by new build DMUs in the future. Hopefully a similar type of stock to that ordered for the Greater Anglia franchise.

A warning from history though. The original HSTs were meant as a stop gap until widespread mainline electrification came on stream.

The first part means "Cornwall Forever", the second is along the lines of "out with the English" (an Sousen /the Saxons/ the Sassenachs).

While we're on the subject of the Cornish, I think this year marks the 175th anniversary of Camborne station (at which the train never stops on Wednesdays), making it the oldest station in continuous use in Cornwall.

Except on Wednesdays.

(I lived briefly in Camborne, and didn't know that!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_axHV2wx8RA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_axHV2wx8RA)

The HST's & MK3 stock being modified is owned by First Group, so if they lose the franchise, whats to stop them taking the trains with them elsewhere?

They could take them to TransPennine or SWR if they wanted. Whether they'd be needed there, or could be included in those franchises is debatable. Varying franchise agreements to add rolling stock, possibly reducing the use of already leased stock is difficult.

Far more likely is that FirstGroup will lease the stock they own to a successor TOC if the next Greater Western Invitation to Tender includes their use. To use them as a bargaining tool or to hold the DfT to ransom won't wash. The DfT could equally specify a tender that doesn't include them long term, instead requesting that bidders look to acquire new build.

Had the opportunity to ride on the four car HST set between Plymouth and St Austell last Friday.

The set is currently topped and tailed by two of the green power cars.  43187 (still branded Y Cymro/The Welshman) and 43016

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/43187.jpg)

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/43016.jpg)

The most obvious difference from the outside is clearly the automatic doors

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/hstdoor.jpg)

The doors, which open smoothly and without delay when the button is pressed, slide into an internal space rather than "popping out" like the 158s or sliding externally as with the 153s.

Internally the coaches look very similar to the full size HST set launched in 2016. 

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/hstint.jpg)

The coach I was in only appeared to have two sets of four seats around a table.   Powerpoints and wifi are provided throughout.

The toilets now have retention tanks (I don't do photos of WCs!)  This first set is lacking a disabled toilet or a wheelchair accessible space.

The automatic doors certainly help with dwell time and we waited for time at a couple of stations.  Partly I suspect due to the shorter station stops but also the better acceleration.

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/hststau.jpg)

One thing which caught my eye was the requirement to only fill the tanks on Coach A with drinking water - the other three have no such requirement.

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/hstwater.jpg)

Is it because the coach has been converted from a former catering vehicle, or is it required for the train manager's office?

Is this one of them?

09:06 Plymouth to Penzance due 11:14


Facilities on the 09:06 Plymouth to Penzance due 11:14.
Service full and standing from Plymouth.

No - just the two coaches.

The return journey could be cozy too. At least it’s running.

Most of Cornwall’s services are wedged today that isn’t an exception!

I would hope it's pretty exceptional, on one of the busiest days of the year to substitute an 8 car HST with a 2 car unit? Then again it happens on the Cotswold Line every day.

2 hours jammed in a cattle truck in this weather, and if youre headed for London changing at Plymouth & Reading and hoping for the best. Lovely.

I guess the one consolation for the customers is the knowledge that they are being conveyed by the Rail Operator of the year.

Probably the quietest bank holiday just that Sundays are usually busy anyway

I was referring to trains in cornwall being wedged whatever size they are.
Have heard Looe branch was leaving people behind throughout the day

It seems to have gone a bit quiet on deliveries of "Castle"s.   My understanding was that there was a first trial unit then production units at one per month until delivery was completed late in 2018, ready for the half hourly Cornish service at the start of next year.    So shouldn't there be four or five buzzing around by now?   That's 20 carriages and would allow stock to be used to provide fit-for-purpose services elsewhere across the unit fleet.

I noted a Westbury - Weymouth service yesterday reported as one carriage, and a peak Saturday service into Weymouth at just 3 carriages.    From one of our users:


It's not just traffic loss on the day ... it's damage from this point hence.

Interesting you raise the Weymouth line Graham and sort of staying on topic, last year regular users of the Weymouth line had a full length HST to enjoy on summer Saturdays. A crowd buster if ever there was one and a comfortable one at that too. Now it’s gone it’s going to be noticed if a two or three car train takes its place rather than something like a 5 car service.

As I understand it however the HST was never full, so perhaps as you say something "in between" would be about right - 5 car Turbo?

One of the advantages of the HST service was the luggage capacity for carrying buggies, picnic baskets and other beach time paraphernalia.

The problem with the HST was that it was an SST (Slow Speed Train) over the Heart of Wessex.   The previous unit - a five car 15x - was always rammed with the 8 car HST being 30 minutes later off Bristol and 60 minutes later into Weymouth having a relatively light loading.    This year, with 2 x 16x services of 5 cars each plus an SWR train from Yeovil to Weymouth (onward to Corfe Castle) should work - about the same capacity over the busiest section of the route by far. However, you halve the length of at least one of the key trains on a nice day and you are going to have problems.   I did not look at the second trains to see how long that was ... but I did note just 3 carriages on the 17:30 back which again would be tight.

Not much good scheduling a mass transit crowd buster to cover your high peak ... and running a single suburban unit on it.   At least the trip with the solitary 153 was not at peak time.

A "nice to have", however elsewhere there isn't capacity for people, so the priorities for allocation of stock are clear.

Just to add to the fun, the additional (crowd buster) BRI-WEY service was yesterday cancelled beyond WSB due to "a train fault." No doubt plenty of happy punters with an enforced wait at WSB for the following service which would probably be rammed.

I had a 3 car 166 last Bank holiday and it was so crowded and late I have vowed not to ever use that line again.

I try to avoid a "my line is worse than yours" type fight for the bottom rungs of the ladder - but it was interesting to hear Mark Hopwood single out four services - North Cotswolds, Heart of Wessex, TransWilts and Severn Beach that have been especially badly hit by recent (rail definitions of recent - from April 2017) problem.   It provides some re-assurance that we're not just crying wolf or shouting louder than others - it confirms that we have real problems that it's right to shout about.

Back to Devon & Cornwall and it seems the 2+4 Castle set has been replaced by a 2+3 HST set with slam doors.

According to the WNXX Forum its so that the 4-car set can go away for its C4 overhaul (service).  Of course that won't happen when more 4-car sets are in service (says he, with tounge in cheek).

Back in service today .... Truro ..... 1257 Penzance to Newton Abbot due 1549

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Di3vQ02W0AUSTIL.jpg)

Saw this unit at Exeter St Davids this morning, working in and out from Newton Abbot direction. Much preferable to a 150 coupled to a 153, especially if you are headed into the Duchy.

By the left hand side?  :P

The QE2 frequently did...

Was chatting to someone this evening who had been very impressed with the 2 + 4 HST, and was more so impressed when he learnt that there were more of them in the pipeline.

Once I had highlighted their primary role, this chap said that GWR had missed a trick by not using some of the space for a micro buffet for the commuters of Devon and Cornwall.

He has a point, could become quite sociable for regular communters.....

It would also have been nice to add a composite coach K to add first class for commuters traveling on a connected service.

I have the perfect solution..................... why not create an 8-coach train, complete with buffet, 1st Class and Standard Class, and put a diesel with a single cab at each end to save having to run around the train.  I'm struggling for a name for it though.............. Ah, I have it...... "The InterCity High Speed Train"

Hmmmm ... I suppose that might do as a stop-gap solution for a few years while the "A" team works out what's really needed for the future  ;D

.......and use it to pootle between Plymouth & Penzance, at a "High Speed" of 40 mph stopping every 10 minutes?

Had a short trip on the GTi set from Penzance to Hayle yesterday, they are certainly quick off the mark, and nicely refurbished, shame there was pasty crumbs all over the place...something for GWR to address (cleanliness)??

Indeed, but provision of a buffet would result in unfortunate comparisons between the 40 year old HSTs and the brand new DMUs now in service.
"old trains still have buffets but new ones don't"
"local passengers still allowed a buffet, but longer distance customers denied this"

However much a buffet would be welcomed, it would look a bit daft to provide this on a local service but not on long distance trains.
A lot of effort has been put into trying to convince us that buffets are no longer needed. Providing one would be an admission of defeat.

I agree, but current policy seems  to be to reduce first class provision, and when possible withdraw it.
Providing first class on a route that has not recently had first class would be regarded as a backwards step.

Sad but true.

….mmm.  Plenty of first class on other trains that use that route.  Mostly fairly empty at most times of the day ::)

Better pasty crumbs than dog doodoo (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=20190.msg243832#msg243832)

“If you see something that doesn’t look right..
or
Please do not leave your pasty unattended”

And the second one is on delivery, GW02. Sadly there are no fully fitted kitchens on them, but it seems to come in half, sounds very familiar  ;)

http://www.petertandy.co.uk/47812_5V84_Hat_031118

Photo credit to owner.

I see pictures of no. 3 headed south today.  Have GW02 and GW03 got disabled loos / GW01 been retrofitted?

As well as 'Chalets' [I refuse to use the other C***** description for the 2+4 sets], I understand that GWR also intend to run several 'Classic' sets - i.e. 2+4 slam-door sets

That must be a change ...but as there were supposed to be a darned site more than 3 around by now, I guess they'll need to for the half hourly Cornwall service in 3 months.  Aren't there classics running in Scotland too, with a wide publicity campaign telling people how to open doors  ;D

All I know is that GW02 is still on crew training at St Philips.

According to information elsewhere GW03 moved from Doncaster to Bristol SPM last Saturday (23/02/2019).

As from today (25/03/2019) there are supposed to be five sets running services.  Three have been substituted by full length HST sets but the other two are running.  This info from the WNXX Forum.

The two sliding door diagrams are:

43016+43187 (GW01) LA854

2D01 0600 Bristol TM - Bristol Parkway
2C43 0624 Bristol Parkway - Penzance
2A86 1141 Penzance - Newton Abbot
2P90 1450 Newton Abbot - Plymouth


43005+43198 (GW03) LA850

2E12 0600 Penzance - Exeter SD
2C45 0926 Exeter SD - Penzance
2A85 1257 Penzance - Newton Abbot
2P49 1555 Newton Abbot - Plymouth
2C51 1755 Plymouth - Penzance
2P96 2018 Penzance - Plymouth
2C54 2242 Plymouth - Penzance

The three booked South Wales slam door diagrams that are all HST’s today.

43041+43189 (LA25) are working LA871:

5U08 0726 PM - Weston
2U08 0841 Weston - Cardiff
2C73 1100 Cardiff - Taunton
2U18 1308 Taunton - Cardiff
2C83 1600 Cardiff - Taunton
2U28 1808 Taunton - Cardiff
2C34 2100 Cardiff - Bristol TM


43056+43159 (OC33) are working LA872:

2Y04 0648 Bristol TM - Weston
2U06 0736 Weston - Cardiff
2C71 1000 Cardiff - Taunton
2U16 1204 Taunton - Cardiff
2C81 1500 Cardiff - Taunton
2U26 1706 Taunton - Cardiff
2C91 2000 Cardiff - Taunton
5C91 2221 Taunton - LA


43042+43188 (LA21) are working LA873:

5D02 0430 LA - Exeter SD
2D02 0600 Exeter SD - Bristol Parkway
2C65 0812 Bristol Parkway - Taunton
2W08 0937 Taunton - Weston
5U14 1010 Weston - Taunton
2U14 1104 Taunton - Cardiff
2C79 1400 Cardiff - Taunton
2U24 1608 Taunton - Cardiff
2C89 1900 Cardiff - Taunton
5C89 2104 Taunton - PM

There was talk that instead of running full length HSTs with slam doors, they would also operate at 2+4 but I don't know what happened to that idea.  It did get DfT approval.

From reading the WNXX Forum I think thats the plan, but the other three slam door four car sets aren't quite ready for service.

Nothing on Journeycheck about full length HSTs. Nothing on Tiger either

The 1000 Cardiff to taunton was 2 plus 4 slam door, so that one at least was running in 2+4

Photo of it today posted by a Tim Dowd in this Facebook group:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/ukhstgroup/?ref=share

I was only repeating what was said on the WNXX Forum.  Don't shoot the messenger ::)

Hence why I didn’t quote you. Merely posting correct information.

The 2+4 sliding doors as we know are designated class 255
I’ve just read the 2+4 slam door sets operated today have been allocated as class 257. I haven’t seen reference to this until a few minutes ago!

Unless they get an extension past the end of the year Class 257 could be the shortest lived ever.

Yes ... even 3 months shorter that the atmospheric railway in South Devon.
https://www.engadget.com/2018/11/12/brunel-atmospheric-railway-history/

Seen on a poster at St Austell the 257's seem to have been given the name "Classic Class"...

……..sounds like an Alan Partridge line!

Caught up with the latest converted 2+4 set on Wednesday (GW04) currently accompanied by power car 43093 Old Oak Common HST Depot 1976-2018 at one end.

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/gw0411.jpg)

Unlike the first set the latest ones do have wheelchair provision

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/gw042.jpg)

It arrived on the 15:56 from Newton Abbot and seen here waiting to form the 19:14 to Plymouth in the company of one of Network Rail's measurement trains.

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/gw043.jpg)

Class 255 work from Saturday 25th May will include:-

2N04 0934 Exeter St David’s to Newquay
2A99 1322 Newquay to Newton Abbot

This is obviously only part of the diagram but runs
on Saturdays 25/5 to 7/9.

I was wondering about that when I saw the 2+4 stop boards on the Newquay Branch this week.

GWR and Network Rail officially launched the half hourly service through Cornwall yesterday.

With part of the project funded by the European Union the event had to be delayed until after last week's European Elections.

Throughout Cornwall giant deckchairs have appeared at stations with a familiar message on them.

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/pnzch.jpg)

Among those attending the short ceremony at Penzance were eight mayors and two MPs from the county.  It seems the collective name for a group of Mayors is a chain-gang!

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/pnzmay.jpg)

Many of the extra services are provided by the 2+4 HSTs - the Castle Class - and it is the first time I have seen two side by side.

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/pnzcast.jpg)

Admittedly our group did boost the numbers but the services I travelled on were well used so it does seem the service will fill a need and lead to more usage.

As for the chairs - it appears people do use them...  this was at Par

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/parch.jpg)

Just one word of warning - don't be tempted to sit in one if there is no one about.   It took a Network Rail director and a GWR Press Officer to get me out of this one...

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/pnzbm.jpg)

"More trains, more seats, (no surfboards)!"  :)

More trains, more seats.

Less luggage space.
Less cycle space.
No buffets.
AND no surf boards.

More trains..... more short forms, more overcrowding (1A82 0900 PNZ-PAD 31/5/19)

Already posted on two other threads

A great example of what can be achieved through partnership working.  Really positive day.

Good to see you there bobm.

Indeed - in the(politically incorrect?) I-Spy book of people on trains, you get 30 points for a chain-gang of mayors an event, but 100 points for a mayor travelling on the train off dignitary duty.  Slightly cynical comment there ... I've had local dignitaries turn up for a rail event and make it clear it's their first visit to the railway ... and in one case actually make it very clear it would be his last as his car is much more convenient ...

Is there a time table I am missing. The trains are not clockface and a few gaps of more than half hour

K lists them from Penzance as 5.05, 5.41, 6.00, 6.35, 6.47, 7.30, 7.41, 8.37, 9.00, 9.25, 10.00, 10.17, 10.51, 11.12, 1141, 12.04, 12.56, 13.25, 14.00, 14.49, 16.00, 16.11, 16.44, 17.10  etc

Already being discussed here: http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=21505.0

Clocky McClockface?

May changes were additions ... in December it goes CLOSER to clock face but not exactly half hourly.  Couldn't go that far in May as the trains east of the Peninsular weren't up for change.

Do you mean the partnership between Network Rail and GWR that was needed to get bobm out of the deckchair?

 ;) :P ;D

''Just one word of warning - don't be tempted to sit in one if there is no one about.   It took a Network Rail director and a GWR Press Officer to get me out of this one...''

 Thank you for the warning, one of the hazards of having 'short legs'

If that was the case he'd probably be stuck there for a good few months and it would cost him a fortune to be extracted from it!  :D