Great Western Coffee Shop

Without wishing to kick off another debate about the whys and wherefores of rail staff being allowed to refuse to work on a Sunday, the number of cancellations attributed to shortage of drivers/crew is now becoming endemic - not only on Sundays, but increasingly on Saturdays and also on (especially but not exclusively) early morning services during the week.

Is there any reason for this worsening problem and what (if anything) are GWR doing to address it?

The holiday period is rapidly approaching and presumably the situation will only get worse bearing this in mind unless there is something in place to address it.

Unless you're willing to pay the excess in costs that will incur through (another) hike in fares, very little/nothing

An interesting (if predictable!) response.............surely it's incumbent upon GWR to ensure that they have sufficient staff available to run their advertised service as specified?

Bear in mind that many staff, drivers in particular, at most depots on the great Western are having to learn to maintain and operate new traction, something entirely foreseeable for some years now, and you begin to realise the ongoing scale of the problem.

First Group's primary reason for existence, like other PLCs, is to make money for its shareholders, you could be forgiven for not realising this, judging by some recent significantly serious failures in its services to its customers, or rather passengers as the Government correctly describes rail travellers.

One reason perhaps?

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 ;) :P ;D

We thrive on debate. Please do not be put off if you start one.  ;D

I wonder if today may be a day where the available resource is stretched to the extreme.
* Glastonbury, with extra services around
* Sunday with the whole service being run by crew volunteering for overtime
* Long diversions via Gloucester because of the emergency engineering works in Patchway Tunnel.
And that last (at least) can't have been planned weeks in advance, and was dropped on GWR by Network Rail. There was less excuse yesterday ... it wasn't Sunday, so the crew is rostered as part of their normal work, and Patchway tunnel was open.

Also extra demand to Cardiff today with the England v South Africa T20 cricket match starting at 1430.

Its not a case of being allowed to refuse to work Sundays, they are actually not contracted to work Sundays.  If it went to a 7 day roster then GWR would need to increase the number of drivers, 35 hour week and all that.   

Also within the Railway industry we can only work a max of 12 hours and the must have a 12 rest between shifts, traveling time to and from work has to be included in the work hours and not the rest hours and on top of that after 13 days there must be a clear whole days rest (24 hours)  these hours are mandated by law

It's about time the railway who want to provide a Sunday service come out of the 1980s and put staff onto 7 day contracts the same way any other business that operates Sunday manage. If it takes a cash compensation payment to each affected member of staff then that's what it needs.
A former workplace offered £2k per employee to make Sundays compulsory- reduced operations meant we only worked 1 in 5 Sundays under compulsory working. Admittedly no interfering unions but only 2 individuals declined the offer. Both of them were people I knew as strong religious types. A large majority of my colleagues spent the money on a week in the sun. I went to Tenerife myself.
Offer a useful sum of money and the majority will accept a variation (until the union put a negative spin on it)

Channeling ChrisB...

"Oooos gunna pay for it?"

 ;) :P ;D

There was an opportunity to bring it into the working week when the recent traction package was accepted by HSS to drive the new IET trains, and be reclassified as IET drivers.  It wasn't taken up for whatever reason though there is a commitment from both sides for 'more discussions' regarding Sunday working - whatever that means.

Couldn't agree more that it needs sorting as we have the same discussions every year.

Quite happily a small adjustment to fares, to ensure a reliable Sunday service.

I wonder how the sums would work.

From "How to become a train driver" at http://www.traindriver.org/what-the-job-involves.html#


Very interesting comment about drivers being better paid these days so no taking so much overtime; very common in other areas outside rail too.   As recently told to me by a non-rail transport company owner: "Would you like to do some work on Saturdays to earn some overtime"  ... "No thank you - that recent rise was great, and so I don't need to ... much better quality of life and chance to spend time with the family"

Indeed, it'll either get covered by increased fares (remival if the super off-peak, anyone?) - so by the likely users of weekend services (not sure it would seem to be fair to load it onto commuter peak fares), or by taxpayers with a lower take from franchise payments.

I know everyone's circumstances are different, but I know if I was on £45k+ a year for a 35ish hour week I wouldn't lift my head off my pillow on a Sunday...  (for overtime that is)

The extended logic of that is to split the paying the staff spread across the passengers on a train.  So travellers on busy trains would pay less each, an on quiet trains the price would be higher.

As I have said previously, the answer IMHO is to require that all NEW staff work Sundays as needed up to a maximum of say 20 Sundays a year.
There is nothing inherently unreasonable about NEW staff being subject to this requirement provided that it be made clear during the initial application for the job.

I feel that it is unreasonable to force EXISTING employees to work Sundays if this was not a requirement when they joined.

There would still be a requirement for some volunteer Sunday working for some years, but at least it would be a steadily reducing requirement rather than an ongoing and perhaps worsening situation.

The trades unions would probably oppose the idea though.

Another option would be to offer those approaching retirement a reduced hours option - say the equivalent of 2 or 3 days a week, but again a degree of Sunday working would be a requirement. People of that age will probably be less concerned about working weekends as their family will not be constrained by the working (and school) week. It might also help the TOC by giving them more flexibility, and for the staff concerned would be a good transition from employed to retired.  i.e. if some drivers feel a full working week is getting too tiring, they could still earn some income.

This. To include staff changing jobs/companies too.

Went to see a friend in Stroud yesterday. While I was there another friend arrived, having taken the train up from Exeter, and said the train was delayed because there was no driver. I don't know any details though.

I think it's called Work Life balance and it's been around a long time.

Ive been trying to find evidence of story about Lord Robens when he was chairman of the Caol Board talking to a, I think, yorkshire miner. Asked why he didn't work Monday replied something to the effect, "because I can't earn enough money NOT working Tuesday". That guy seems to have got his work life balance sorted but if I remember correctly the right wing press was outraged calling miners lazy and overpaid. Seems drivers are now in the same happy position.

If i was still working on 45K I'd be in full agreement with oldoriginal about getting out of bed on a Sunday.

I think if we want decent services, 24/7, we are going to have to  employ more workers plus pay them more  which means we will have to pay more for them of at time of using them or if publicly funded  (NHS) pay  more tax or a combination of both.

S'ok.....all new drivers taken on have contracts to include Sunday rosters within their working week, thus once the current drivers retire the new ones become very flexible....thus fewer drivers then needed, and those extras only required for a few years.

That is the suggestion that Broadgage made above, but I can quite categorically state that's not the case within GWR currently.

A few TOC's do have Sunday's within the working week, Virgin West Coast for example, with the driver's base line salary bumped up several thousand pounds to compensate.  GWR has a mixture of drivers who can opt out of Sunday's with no penalty as long as they give 5 days notice, and others that are required to work unless their shift can be covered by somebody else - though that 'requirement' to work is a huge grey area as they are additional hours on top of their 35-hour week roster with no sick pay paid.  Some just don't turn up or go sick and there's very little the company can do about it.

West drivers who joined since 2003 all have Sunday workings and have to arrange their own cover for it off.
West drivers from before 2003, HSS and LTV drivers are Sundays opt out with a weeks notice..
West crew I believe to be optional Sundays.

I'm not sure how it works on the railways, but everywhere I've ever worked if you "just don't turn up" without good reason it's a disciplinary matter, and repeated sickness absences are covered by specific procedures which can ultimately lead to dismissal too.

If Managers lack the ability or motivation to apply these processes then they are failing as Managers and that might explain why people get away with it.

I expect fear of the Unions plays a part, but if processes are followed correctly there is nothing to fear, and I speak as someone who has gone down this route with individuals in highly unionised public sector environments.

That's not quite how it is.  Paddington LTV can opt out with a week's notice (I thought that was all staff not just pre-2003 but happy to be corrected), Oxford have to get cover regardless of when they started.  As I said though 'have to get cover' in all probability isn't legally binding as I'll try to explain below. 


A Sunday (for all drivers on LTV and HSS - I'm not 100% sure about West, but think it is for them too) remains in addition to their working week.  Sundays do form part of their roster but not part of their 35-hour week which is usually normalised over an 8 week period.

If a driver wishes to give up their Sunday and they can't just opt-out, for example an Oxford LTV driver, they try and find cover themselves from another volunteer.  If that doesn't happen then the rostering department will try and cover it (potentially from another depot). 

If that doesn't happen they are supposed to work, but this is where the grey area is.  Because it is an additional shift it is very different from a normal rostered days work.  If you don't turn up on a normal rostered day of the week then that is quite rightly worked through the sickness and attendance procedure by their manager, known as MfA.  Much more rigorously than many organisations do I can tell you, given the impact regular sickness can have compared with other businesses!

Sundays however are different in two key areas.  1) You don't get paid sick pay if you go sick, 2) You can't book a Sunday off as part of your annual holiday entitlement to be guaranteed it off.  Those two differences and the fact it's an additional shift mean that AFAIUI there is very little the company can do!

Though it has to be said, the main reason for shortages are for those depots that retain the opt-out clause (half of drivers are probably pre-2003 at most depots) and no mention of that changing that was made as part of the recent IET package.  Though I certainly accept it will slowly get better over time, it is still going to be a problem for many years.

We are massively overstaffed with drivers were I am based and I think the same can be said for a lot of other depots on the GWR network.  Once all the new traction training is complete I think the company will be in a position to include Sunday's in the working week or else they will look at redundancies.  That's only my guess.  Some drivers may decide they don't want to learn new traction and opt to take retirement.  Sunday's within the working week is something the company wants but there's a few drivers who oppose the idea.

That'll sort out the "ooooooos gunna pay for it?" brigade then, some of the money saved on making all those surplus drivers redundant/giving them early retirement can be diverted into paying the remaining drivers a bit more to work on Sundays as part of the working week...........and just think of all that additional fare revenue with a more reliable, strengthened service!  :)

Yep ....

It's a possibility.  One of the problems GWR have is that they don't know how many drivers they will actually need in three years time as there are still some unknowns, such as how many drivers will retire/move to other TOC's and how many services they will actually be operating.

Which begs the question why on earth can GWR not manage to cobble together a full timetable with no shortages of train crew?! Are there really so few volunteers for Sunday working out of this over staffing you speak of? Or is it down to limited availability of other staff such as guards/train managers?

As stated before, would you volunteer for Sundays if you were earning £45k+? I certainly wouldn't.

My point being that in the grossly overstaffed environment that a-driver describes, surely enough people are likely to volunteer to ensure a Sunday service, or at least the management could somehow persuade enough people to come in. £45k isn't that much really, especially if you're paying to live in SE England...working Sundays could boost income by more than 25% depending on hours worked - that's got to be tempting for many and is enough to pay for a new car, nice holiday or whatever...my guess is there's some sort of breakdown in the relationship between employees and management as I don't recall such apparently widespread problems in the past on GWR?

I have in the past attended work (without any overtime payment and on a lower salary than quote for GWR drivers) at weekends/evenings for the sole benefit of ensuring my employer at the time was able to meet certain targets.

Are you in unionised employment?

It is obvious that what you suggest isn't happening.

Do you work for a small company?  Or a small autonomous unit within a larger company?

That is entirely different to working for a large monolithic organisation.   Creating such a culture  in a large organisation without small autonomous units is very difficult.

Nope, never have & likely never will. Not sure what that's got to do with anything?



Is it? Please do elaborate

Understanding just why it isn't as easy as you suggest.

Well, I know it has been considered, for some time. Too damn expensive, but as has been mentioned above, another chance is coming up if/when IEPs come online. The unions may prevent it again.

That ship may have already sailed.  HSS have just agreed a nice little deal to learn the new trains (and any future ones) with AIUI no strings attached other than a commitment to further discussions regarding Sunday shifts.

With the short franchise, probably out of reach expense-wise unfortunately. DfT could/should have considered this at the time of granting if they were serious about wanting to sort out this problem.

Fair enough, my comments were intended to provoke some debate, but failed somewhat with your rather concise response! ;D

I'm well aware of the difficulties that the more militant transport unions present and realise that they can be a stumbling block to any sort of progress or evolution of workplace cultures. That's not to say change couldn't happen - the union members could force this if they so chose, but they sadly either don't give a toss or haven't been presented with sensible proposals or are happy to just be dominated by the union bosses.

It's a bit pathetic that the industry cannot or will not evolve!

......along with several other peak services this morning.......


06:28 Maidenhead to London Paddington due 06:54 will be cancelled.
This is due to a shortage of train crew.

In the days of NSE Thames and Chiltern, Thames Trains, FGW Link and I think even the early days of FGW, there was a traincrew management presence at (for example) Paddington, and it almost unheard of to cancel trains through lack of traincrew.  I remember occasions when the local manager would ask traincrew the day before, or even phone them at home on the day, to work all or part of their Rest Day to cover an open turn.  The local manager would always find someone to keep the service going, even if it meant tweaking the diagrams to do so. 

The managers knew their staff and there was mutual trust and support, and the “small company” culture was similar to what chrisr_75 is suggesting.  That local management presence has now gone, and traincrew are now just a resource (like a train or a locomotive) who – operationally at least - are managed (if that isn’t too strong a word) remotely by people who have probably never met them.   

I would be very surprised if traincrew productivity has not fallen over the years.

I think you're right - sad innit?

Sorry, but this is complete nonsense. Train crew are still managed locally.

You are entitled to your view, but I stand by what I said.

We are still managed locally and there's still phone calls made to get work covered or diagrams tweaked. There's even bribes of 12 hours pay etc to cover jobs but at the end of the day, delays and engineering works is just too much hassle and stress on top of what we deal with during the week!!!

my 'view' is a fact.

I wasn’t going to come back on this, but now I will.  I hope “the void” will acknowledge that what I say below is correct.

In the past there were Train Crew Supervisors (TCS’s) at Paddington etc.  They were management grades. They would see their staff as they booked on, maybe have a quick chat, and ensure all the diagrams were covered.  They could make short term changes if circumstances required, maybe face to face.  They knew their staff and knew (for example) who were willing to work RD’s. 

FGW decided to abolish these posts and to centralise all booking on and diagram resourcing activities to Swindon.  Booking on is now done by the Driver phoning up an automated telephone system.  A Driver can go days without seeing a manager.  These changes do not help build a “small company” culture.

I accept that the Drivers’ line manager is their Depot Manager, but this role is not directly involved in resourcing diagrams, which is the issue under discussion in this topic.
 
On a broader note, I hope current GWR employees will accept that this topic is a legitimate area for discussion.  When I was a BR manager I would get extremely irritated by retired BR managers telling me how things were or could be done better, so I do have some sympathy with to-day’s managers in this respect. 

Yes, there's a difference in the term 'managed' for drivers in regard to managing them and resourcing them effectively.

Their line management is pretty much as it's been for years - in fact the increased assessments, monitoring and delay attribution workload means that most locations have seen an increase in depot management numbers.  The resourcing management - producing the crew rosters, covering sickness and absence at short notice and dealing with displaced crews and trains when it goes belly up, used to be dealt with at each major location by a TCS (Train Crew Supervisor).  This is now all done centrally from Swindon.  The larger locations have an Area Operations Manager and the very largest have a local control office as well who act as an intermediately between the crew and Swindon but their powers are very limited.  With Swindon needing to make virtually all the decisions throughout the whole GWR network, as soon as it goes badly wrong they are completely overwhelmed. 

AOM's until recently (earlier this year) existed at Oxford, Westbury and Cardiff but these have now been removed leaving just Paddington, Reading, Bristol and Exeter.  This has increased the workload on Swindon even more.

Whether the rostering of train crew has been improved or not by the centralising to Swindon is difficult to prove.  There's no doubt that getting the diagrams covered from a central point a day or two in advance where you can see all the depots allocations at once is a better way of matching open turns with spare crew.  But there was much more of a local camaraderie with the old system of TCS's who knew who they could rely on for favours and when they could see them to ask - leaving hopeful voicemail messages on staff mobile phones is not an effective way to cover trains at short notice!

Cancellations to services between Swindon and Cheltenham Spa.

8 x services between London and Cheltenham services cancelled - is that pretty much the whole day's worth?

Due to a shortage of train crew between Swindon and Cheltenham Spa:
Train services running through these stations may be cancelled.

Disruption is expected until 21:30 16/07.

It leaves a minimum half hourly service between London and Swindon, with a connection every 2 hours for Kemble, Stroud, Stonehouse, Gloucester and Cheltenham Spa.  I'm not sure on Sundays, but daytime / weekdays, a single extra 150 added to the two currently running (cycling every 4 hours) would allow the service to be stepped back up to hourly - just not through to London.