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All across the Great Western territory => Across the West => Topic started by: TaplowGreen on July 22, 2017, 17:04:51



Title: The End of First class?
Post by: TaplowGreen on July 22, 2017, 17:04:51
I know this has largely already happened on all but the longer routes on GWR, and drastically reduced even on those, but this perhaps points to an overall single class direction of travel for the future

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40690621


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: didcotdean on July 22, 2017, 17:09:16
As I have said before, as soon as MPs and Whitehall civil servants could no longer routinely claim first class rail travel its days were numbered.


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: simonw on July 22, 2017, 17:10:28
Get rid of first class, and for all train journeys over four hours have a dinning car!


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: broadgage on July 22, 2017, 17:21:27
Regrettable in my view if first class is withdrawn from longer distance services. The present proposal only refers to relatively short distance commuter services, but I fear that this may be the  "thin end of the wedge"
Many outer suburban stations such as Reading or Woking are the first stop for express trains from London and therefore have first class services.

First class has been significantly reduced on the existing HST fleet, and it was implied that this was a short term measure to address a short term lack of capacity until the new DMUs arrive.
Arrival of said DMUs is now imminent, and first class provision has been further reduced.

The rot started when members of parliament were stopped from using first class at the public expense. I bet if MPs were allowed to use first it would again become an "important facility for the business traveller, vital as part of a strategy  to attract investment and jobs into the regions"

Politicians have only started calling for the abolition/reduction of first class after they were stopped from using it for free.


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: grahame on July 22, 2017, 17:26:26
Get rid of first class, and for all train journeys over four hours have a dinning car!

Love it ... but what catering stock would you propose for the 08:59 Brighton to Great Malvern, arrives 14:35 - perhaps the longest GWR journey at 7 hours and 36 minutes.  As a starting point, that's a 3 car 158 and is supposed to remain to even as and when class 165 and / or 166 appear on Cardiff - Portsmouth as clearing Turbos along the coast would be a lot of work for just 2 trains each way per day


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: NickB on July 22, 2017, 17:31:30
Either scrap it completely or point out that anyone can buy a first class ticket - it's not a birth right. Fiddling around with the proportions of standard vs first just annoys both sides of the vestibule - if there is a single first class seat remaining then someone standing in standard will claim it is a class war, and if you squeeze first further then those who have paid for the service will not be able to get a seat in first class.

I believe that removing it completely is the only way forwards now. Equally the populist bleating of Alok Sharma and now Grayling gets my goat. I was a standard class customer who didn't like standing everyday on my commute. So do you know what I did?  I put my hand in my pocket and paid for the upgrade - just like anyone else can if they feel that strongly about it. I pay £2 extra per day for a seat (with reservation), a coffee, croissant and a paper to read. It was worth every penny. What isn't worth it is the sad fact that since Alok convinced FGW to squash First into 1.5 carriages I can't get a seat without a reservation, the catering has disappeared and the TM never visits to check tickets thereby passively declassifiying the carriages. It is no longer worth it and that is GWRs loss. So, if you can't support it then please scrap it completely.


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: TaplowGreen on July 22, 2017, 17:32:13
As I have said before, as soon as MPs and Whitehall civil servants could no longer routinely claim first class rail travel its days were numbered.

Have you got any evidence for that? I worked in Whitehall over 20 years ago and we certainly weren't allowed to travel 1st class unless in extremely specific circumstances even then.


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: paul7575 on July 22, 2017, 17:43:20
 As a starting point, that's a 3 car 158 and is supposed to remain to even as and when class 165 and / or 166 appear on Cardiff - Portsmouth as clearing Turbos along the coast would be a lot of work for just 2 trains each way per day
However, the gauge clearance project for 165/166 still included Brighton as of Dec 2016, and was reprinted as such in the Jun 2017 enhancements milestones.

Paul


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: broadgage on July 22, 2017, 17:50:21
Get rid of first class, and for all train journeys over four hours have a dinning car!

But to enjoy a meal, the seats in the dinning car would have to be larger and be at a table. Some people might be willing to pay for this extra space, but might not be hungry.
Perhaps a supplement could be charged for those customers. On some services there might be little demand for meals, but appreciable demand might exist for the extra space and comfort, so everyone in the dining car would have to pay the "dining car (non dining)supplement"

Perhaps this could be called "improved comfort and more legroom class" unless someone can think up a much shorter and more catchy phrase that describes what it is for ?


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: didcotdean on July 22, 2017, 18:36:43
As I have said before, as soon as MPs and Whitehall civil servants could no longer routinely claim first class rail travel its days were numbered.

Have you got any evidence for that? I worked in Whitehall over 20 years ago and we certainly weren't allowed to travel 1st class unless in extremely specific circumstances even then.
Whereas I recall a few years later than that having specifically to request a standard class ticket, which I usually did for short / medium journeys, otherwise I would be supplied with a first class one by default. I was considered somewhat eccentric for doing this too as hardly any of my colleagues did. It was almost as if it was an accepted subsidy to the railway.

Maybe it depended on the specific department and grade. I think general practice changed though not long afterwards and somewhat later for MPs.


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: ChrisB on July 22, 2017, 20:11:06
Get rid of first class, and for all train journeys over four hours have a dinning car!

Love it ... but what catering stock would you propose for the 08:59 Brighton to Great Malvern, arrives 14:35 - perhaps the longest GWR journey at 7 hours and 36 minutes.  As a starting point, that's a 3 car 158 and is supposed to remain to even as and when class 165 and / or 166 appear on Cardiff - Portsmouth as clearing Turbos along the coast would be a lot of work for just 2 trains each way per day

Love it....a numerical typo...

0859 to 1435? I make that 5h36....?


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: stuving on July 22, 2017, 20:35:57
All of the above has nothing to do with the BBC news item!

This is the direct quote bit:
Quote
In an interview with the Daily Telegraph, Mr Grayling said he was "absolutely" committed to scrapping first class carriages on shorter, commuter routes, at busy times of the day, and wanted train operators to take action if passengers demanded it.

"I absolutely understand what a total pain it is if you are standing on a train for 20 to 30 minutes on the way to work," he told the paper.

"I don't really see a case for a non-long distance journey for there to be any division between first and second class. There should just be one class on the train."

"People will see less first class in the future as we start to say that on busy suburban trains you can't start segregating," he added.

Now I can't be sure if it meant to say "shorter, commuter routes" or "shorter commuter routes" - and it does make a difference - but it makes more sense with no comma. So we are only talking about inner suburban stock, and a lot of that (I suspect most  of it) has no first anyway.

Even if it meant outer suburban too, and you'd need to define that of course, it would no be such a bigchange. After all, new Crossrail and similar through-cabin stock is standard only and is going quite a long way out - with the exception of the Thameslink 700s, which are being built with a first class bit. Class 387s are standard only, and they are certainly outer suburban trains.

So this may well be either minister and journalist exchanging ignorance, or (more likely) spin being applied to a negligible bit of new policy.

And did he really mean that whatever first class was scrapped would magically reappear outside busy times of day?


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: ChrisB on July 22, 2017, 21:05:18
No, scrapped completely.

TV has been showing Southeastern & Southern longer distance commuter stock today...but both those are identical seating to Standard class anyway...so simply removing the yellow stripe & decals will suffice.

So the turbos declassified. Do the 158s on GWR have 1st class?


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: stuving on July 22, 2017, 21:28:29
No, scrapped completely.

How do you know? Do have direct access to the inside of the Grayling brain? Scary!

Or perhaps it was in the original Telegraph piece. The free bit they put on-line was a little different from the BBC's text:
Quote
First class compartments will disappear from crowded commuter trains, the Transport Secretary has pledged, as he said passengers should no longer be “segregated”.

Chris Grayling, who commutes by train to Whitehall every day, told The Daily Telegraph he understands what a “total pain” it is for passengers who have to stand in packed standard class carriages while first class compartments are empty.

He said he is “absolutely” committed to scrapping first class on commuter trains and expects to see fewer first class carriages on intercity services over the next few years.

So that does refer to long distance trains, though I guess we all expect to see less first class there without any action by DfT - and were surprised by how much first there was in the IEPs, for example.


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: ChrisB on July 22, 2017, 21:36:20
I understand it'll be done in ITTs in new franchise offers


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: ellendune on July 22, 2017, 22:38:07
No, scrapped completely.


That'll go down a bundle with the core Tory Vote - those that use the trains anyway!


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: grahame on July 23, 2017, 00:53:31
Get rid of first class, and for all train journeys over four hours have a dinning car!

Love it ... but what catering stock would you propose for the 08:59 Brighton to Great Malvern, arrives 14:35 - perhaps the longest GWR journey at 7 hours and 36 minutes.  As a starting point, that's a 3 car 158 and is supposed to remain to even as and when class 165 and / or 166 appear on Cardiff - Portsmouth as clearing Turbos along the coast would be a lot of work for just 2 trains each way per day

Love it....a numerical typo...

0859 to 1435? I make that 5h36....?

Yep, correctly identified as being incorrect in the original post.  Still (one of) the longest runs by GWR time-wise and technically requiring a dining car by the standards suggested.


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: grahame on July 23, 2017, 06:13:00
No, scrapped completely.
That'll go down a bundle with the core Tory Vote - those that use the trains anyway!

And it will be welcomed by those who don't want the intrusive overhead structures through the heritage city of Bath.

Bath has major traffic issues ... not helped by the pulling of three projects for better transport in recent days which would have encouraged people to leave their cars away from the centre and get there in other ways. Pulled are:
* The Park and Ride at Batheaston
* The Cable Car
* Electric Trains


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: ChrisB on July 23, 2017, 12:15:45
Huh? 1st class will still appear in the 800s through Bath.

When did the Chancellor cancel the Swindon-Bath-Bristol electrification?


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: paul7575 on July 23, 2017, 13:00:54
No, scrapped completely.
That'll go down a bundle with the core Tory Vote - those that use the trains anyway!

And it will be welcomed by those who don't want the intrusive overhead structures through the heritage city of Bath.

Bath has major traffic issues ... not helped by the pulling of three projects for better transport in recent days which would have encouraged people to leave their cars away from the centre and get there in other ways. Pulled are:
* The Park and Ride at Batheaston
* The Cable Car
* Electric Trains

Completely confused now Grahame.  ???  I think you have replied to a post about first class provision in terms of electrification?

Paul


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: Timmer on July 23, 2017, 14:04:46
And it will be welcomed by those who don't want the intrusive overhead structures through the heritage city of Bath.

Bath has major traffic issues ... not helped by the pulling of three projects for better transport in recent days which would have encouraged people to leave their cars away from the centre and get there in other ways. Pulled are:
* The Park and Ride at Batheaston
* The Cable Car
* Electric Trains
That's backward Bath for you. If you have a good idea that's going to help the chronic traffic problem that Bath has don't bring it to Bath, we don't want it. The only transport 'solutions' that have come to this city in the last ten years are a few trendy bus shelters and making virtually every road in Bath 20mph.

Someone has now come up with a proposal to bring trams back to the city. I wish them all the best.

The cable car, though very left field, would have been an amazing and well used addition to the city. Oh well never mind   :(


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: grahame on July 23, 2017, 14:06:34
Completely confused now Grahame.  ???  I think you have replied to a post about first class provision in terms of electrification?

Paul

It was a long morning, Paul ... I suspect I did.


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: Rhydgaled on July 23, 2017, 15:17:14
When did the Chancellor cancel the Swindon-Bath-Bristol electrification?
Swindon-Chippenham electrification I believe is going ahead; Chippenham-Bristol-Filton was paused/deferred some time ago and there is still no completion date for that part of project as far as I know so looking unlikely in the next 3-4 years.

Get rid of first class, and for all train journeys over four hours have a dinning car!

But to enjoy a meal, the seats in the dinning car would have to be larger and be at a table. Some people might be willing to pay for this extra space, but might not be hungry.
Perhaps a supplement could be charged for those customers. On some services there might be little demand for meals, but appreciable demand might exist for the extra space and comfort, so everyone in the dining car would have to pay the "dining car (non dining)supplement"

Perhaps this could be called "improved comfort and more legroom class" unless someone can think up a much shorter and more catchy phrase that describes what it is for ?
For a four-hour journey (in fact, any service that goes for longer than an hour without passengers having the opertunity to change onto a faster, more-comfortable, train that overtakes the first), the standard class accomadation should at any rate be better quality than it is at present on many trains (class 175s, some 158s and the mark 2 aircons on the Cumbrian coast are examples of what can and should be done). Yes, the 'dining car' would need to be all tables and the other coaches would have some airline seating, but there are standard class interiors that are perfectly suitable for dining. There are only two possible reasons to retain first class; one is to provide 2+1 (or even 1+1) seating and the other is to generate additional revenue to help cover the costs of running the services.

Get rid of first class, and for all train journeys over four hours have a dinning car!

Love it ... but what catering stock would you propose for the 08:59 Brighton to Great Malvern, arrives 14:35 - perhaps the longest GWR journey at 7 hours and 36 minutes.  As a starting point, that's a 3 car 158 and is supposed to remain to even as and when class 165 and / or 166 appear on Cardiff - Portsmouth as clearing Turbos along the coast would be a lot of work for just 2 trains each way per day

Love it....a numerical typo...

0859 to 1435? I make that 5h36....?

Yep, correctly identified as being incorrect in the original post.  Still (one of) the longest runs by GWR time-wise and technically requiring a dining car by the standards suggested.
This is a difficult problem. Long-distance passengers are likely to need to either start early in the morning (and hence need breakfast on the train) or finish late at night (and need dinner on the train). On busy routes, there will be a concentration of people needing hot food at a similar time on the same train, but unfortunately secondary routes do not carry the volume of passengers needed to make providing meals financially worthwhile (resulting in me being very displeased with only a peice of flapjack before bed when I went to Brokenhurst (using the Cardiff-Portsmouth service, probably changing onto XC/SWT at Southampton); that's not dinner that's elevenses (or a desert)). Maybe on regional express routes the TOC should have an account with take-away providers on-route who can deliver some Fish & Chips to the train as required.


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: ChrisB on July 23, 2017, 15:55:29
When did the Chancellor cancel the Swindon-Bath-Bristol electrification?
Swindon-Chippenham electrification I believe is going ahead; Chippenham-Bristol-Filton was paused/deferred some time ago and there is still no completion date for that part of project as far as I know so looking unlikely in the next 3-4 years.

Your guessing, and need to say so.

It's in the same boat as Oxford-Didcot - currently paused to CP6. We need to await the approval of NR's CP6 approved works before we know anything more. Not mentioned by the Chancellor this week either.

Quote
This is a difficult problem. Long-distance passengers are likely to need to either start early in the morning (and hence need breakfast on the train) or finish late at night (and need dinner on the train). On busy routes, there will be a concentration of people needing hot food at a similar time on the same train, but unfortunately secondary routes do not carry the volume of passengers needed to make providing meals financially worthwhile (resulting in me being very displeased with only a peice of flapjack before bed when I went to Brokenhurst (using the Cardiff-Portsmouth service, probably changing onto XC/SWT at Southampton); that's not dinner that's elevenses (or a desert)). Maybe on regional express routes the TOC should have an account with take-away providers on-route who can deliver some Fish & Chips to the train as required.

Or do whaty the vast majority do - and buy before you board. :-)


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 23, 2017, 16:06:32
Or do whaty the vast majority do - and buy before you board. :-)

I was on a PAD-PLY HST a week or so ago from Reading to Westbury  - the 11:06 off of PAD I think it was.  Very few seats to be had so I stood with a mate in the buffet area and enjoyed a beer.  In the hour or so I was on board, which could be described as the early lunch period, I think I counted half a dozen other customers - none of which purchased anything that a trolley couldn't have provided.  I'm sure it got a little busier later on, but with that level of custom on a busy train at that time of day, it's becoming clear why GWR don't think they can justify a full buffet.  A big shame.


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: grahame on July 23, 2017, 17:47:45
I was on a PAD-PLY HST a week or so ago from Reading to Westbury  - the 11:06 off of PAD I think it was.  Very few seats to be had so I stood with a mate in the buffet area and enjoyed a beer.  In the hour or so I was on board, which could be described as the early lunch period, I think I counted half a dozen other customers - none of which purchased anything that a trolley couldn't have provided.  I'm sure it got a little busier later on, but with that level of custom on a busy train at that time of day, it's becoming clear why GWR don't think they can justify a full buffet.  A big shame.

But I wonder if the low level of business you saw was because few people want the service, or because few people are prepared to risk loosing their seat (and luggage?) at an intermediate station.

Perhaps the metric differ on trains that have predominantly groups rather than individual passengers, and perhaps there's a higher demand on trains that make fewer stops where people could loose their seats of or luggage - so more business for the buffet on a none-stop train from the hamlet of Reading to the hamlet of Taunton, rather than on one that stops at the major passenger exchange and connection point  ;D of Westbury along the way?

Edit - Corrected - "of" to "or" in the text above.   I was reported to the moderator / admin team for appearing to suggest that people had their luggage on seats (which they should not do) and feared it being taken off if they went to the buffet.   My error - a typo - the suggestion is that someone might have taken their seat, or removed their luggage at an intermediate station, if they were in the buffet during a station stop.


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: Rhydgaled on July 23, 2017, 19:03:51
When did the Chancellor cancel the Swindon-Bath-Bristol electrification?
Swindon-Chippenham electrification I believe is going ahead; Chippenham-Bristol-Filton was paused/deferred some time ago and there is still no completion date for that part of project as far as I know so looking unlikely in the next 3-4 years.

Your guessing, and need to say so.
Guessing, yes, but also looking at this (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/high-level-output-specification-2017), which claims to be the High Level Output Specification for CP6 and includes the following: "The Statement does not commit to infrastructure enhancements. These are expected to be dealt with separately." Plus; three years from now is only one year into CP6 (2020), so even if electrification to Bristol is funded 'seperately' I think mine is probably a fairly safe guess given how slowly the wires have rolled out on the GWML so far, unless the pace is about to pick up.

Quote
This is a difficult problem. Long-distance passengers are likely to need to either start early in the morning (and hence need breakfast on the train) or finish late at night (and need dinner on the train). On busy routes, there will be a concentration of people needing hot food at a similar time on the same train, but unfortunately secondary routes do not carry the volume of passengers needed to make providing meals financially worthwhile (resulting in me being very displeased with only a peice of flapjack before bed when I went to Brokenhurst (using the Cardiff-Portsmouth service, probably changing onto XC/SWT at Southampton); that's not dinner that's elevenses (or a desert)). Maybe on regional express routes the TOC should have an account with take-away providers on-route who can deliver some Fish & Chips to the train as required.

Or do whaty the vast majority do - and buy before you board. :-)
Just how am I supposed to keep my dinner warm until I'm ready to eat it on a 5hr journey? I can't remember where I started my Brockenhurst journey from (it was several years ago), or exactly what time I was travelling, but am fairly sure I arrived there after 9pm; 5hrs earlier would be 4pm.


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: ChrisB on July 23, 2017, 22:33:46
Who needs to eat hot food on a train? Most don't....


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: grahame on July 24, 2017, 07:04:07
Get rid of first class, and for all train journeys over four hours have a dinning car!

Love it ... but what catering stock would you propose for the 08:59 Brighton to Great Malvern, arrives 14:35 - perhaps the longest GWR journey at 7 hours and 36 minutes.  As a starting point, that's a 3 car 158 and is supposed to remain to even as and when class 165 and / or 166 appear on Cardiff - Portsmouth as clearing Turbos along the coast would be a lot of work for just 2 trains each way per day

Love it....a numerical typo...

0859 to 1435? I make that 5h36....?

Yep, correctly identified as being incorrect in the original post.  Still (one of) the longest runs by GWR time-wise and technically requiring a dining car by the standards suggested.
This is a difficult problem. Long-distance passengers are likely to need to either start early in the morning (and hence need breakfast on the train) or finish late at night (and need dinner on the train). On busy routes, there will be a concentration of people needing hot food at a similar time on the same train, but unfortunately secondary routes do not carry the volume of passengers needed to make providing meals financially worthwhile (resulting in me being very displeased with only a peice of flapjack before bed when I went to Brokenhurst (using the Cardiff-Portsmouth service, probably changing onto XC/SWT at Southampton); that's not dinner that's elevenses (or a desert)). Maybe on regional express routes the TOC should have an account with take-away providers on-route who can deliver some Fish & Chips to the train as required.

No catering at all today.  As catering is normally a trolley, not sure how that gets canned when more trains need repairs at the same time ...

Quote
08:59 Brighton to Great Malvern due 14:35
Facilities on the 08:59 Brighton to Great Malvern due 14:35.
Catering is not available. There are no reservations on this service.
This is due to more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time.

Wasn't there publicity about a year ago concerning Pizza delivery to a train when it called at Newport?   May have my timing and station wrong ...

Best bet, frankly, on the long stragily cross country runs is to self cater and take something to do. I do know someone who made a 5 hour journey on this train but he tells me of major changes to the people on board all along,  confirming that through traffic sometimes gets drowned out by the shorter trips.


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: ChrisB on July 24, 2017, 08:33:56
Catering seems to always removed when a 2car substitutes the 3car - I was wondering whether the door/corridor width was the problem? Are these trains disabled-accessible?


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: Timmer on July 24, 2017, 09:01:42
Catering seems to always removed when a 2car substitutes the 3car - I was wondering whether the door/corridor width was the problem? Are these trains disabled-accessible?
There used to be a trolley service on the Bristol-Weymouth line which was operated by 150s so I don't see there being a problem with providing a trolley service apart from the train being very busy being only 2 car.


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: martyjon on July 24, 2017, 10:04:32
Catering seems to always removed when a 2car substitutes the 3car - I was wondering whether the door/corridor width was the problem? Are these trains disabled-accessible?
There used to be a trolley service on the Bristol-Weymouth line which was operated by 150s so I don't see there being a problem with providing a trolley service apart from the train being very busy being only 2 car.


Going back many years now my return journey from Weymouth - Bristol one Saturday had a trolley service on it and it was on a sick 155, yes 155 before they split them to build a driving cab ' in the middle ends ' and re-classify the resultant single car units 153's. The cause of the illness was an engine failure on one of the two cars but the unit manfully struggled all the way back to Bristol and further as I left the service at Yate. I think the final destination of that service was Birmingham International, it was a Saturday and the operator was the Provincial Railways division of British Rail.


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: grahame on July 24, 2017, 12:41:38
Catering seems to always removed when a 2car substitutes the 3car - I was wondering whether the door/corridor width was the problem? Are these trains disabled-accessible?
There used to be a trolley service on the Bristol-Weymouth line which was operated by 150s so I don't see there being a problem with providing a trolley service apart from the train being very busy being only 2 car.

Should be able to do a trolley in most 150/2s ... not quite so sure about a 150/1, or the 150/2 that has 2 + 3 seating (150263?) ; can't be 150002 as that's 3 car, nor 2 x 153 as they're not route cleared to Brighton.


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: Timmer on July 24, 2017, 12:57:04
Should be able to do a trolley in most 150/2s ... not quite so sure about a 150/1, or the 150/2 that has 2 + 3 seating (150263?) ; can't be 150002 as that's 3 car, nor 2 x 153 as they're not route cleared to Brighton.
This was back in the days when all 150s were 2+3 seating so yes you can squeeze a trolley down the aisle  :)


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: devonexpress on July 24, 2017, 14:06:24
The problem is with First Class apart from a big leather seat, a table and a free coffee or tea, what has it got that standard class hasn't?

None of the TOCs offer anything really worthy of upgrading to First Class.   For example a return between Exeter & Newton Abbot costs £5.80 for standard, and for First its a whopping £24, on most services I can get a seat in standard, and a coffee for less than a tenner, so what I am paying the extra £14 for? Free Wifi, No!, At   Seat Service, Hardly.

If we look at the airlines, business class or first start with having a free glass of champagne or a gin. Followed by a full meal or snacks in business. Whilst this may not be possible for train companies, I certainly don't see why a First Class customer should pay £500 for a trip to London, and then be expected to pay £18 for breakfast, plus tips for the staff.

The GWR rebrand is almost a shambles, repainting old, depraved stock that was promised to be removed, boosting staff moral(which only happened for a time), repainting stations(only a select few, before they gave up).

Train companies are seriously going to need to look at themselves and what they want to offer, because otherwise, UK railways will just become buses on rails...


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: broadgage on July 24, 2017, 14:26:07
Buses on rails indeed !
I thought that I was the only one to compare DMUs unfavourably to buses, and to complain about bus style seating layout.


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: John R on July 24, 2017, 15:50:31
The problem is with First Class apart from a big leather seat, a table and a free coffee or tea, what has it got that standard class hasn't?

None of the TOCs offer anything really worthy of upgrading to First Class.   For example a return between Exeter & Newton Abbot costs £5.80 for standard, and for First its a whopping £24, on most services I can get a seat in standard, and a coffee for less than a tenner, so what I am paying the extra £14 for? Free Wifi, No!, At   Seat Service, Hardly.

If we look at the airlines, business class or first start with having a free glass of champagne or a gin. Followed by a full meal or snacks in business. Whilst this may not be possible for train companies, I certainly don't see why a First Class customer should pay £500 for a trip to London, and then be expected to pay £18 for breakfast, plus tips for the staff.


So for my commute from NLS to SWI it cost about an extra £7 per day, for which I got:-

2 hours of a comfortable reclining seat
A guaranteed seat, especially valuable in the evening
A relatively quiet environment
A nice big table to put my papers/lap top drinks etc on
Free hot drinks/cold drinks/nibbles etc all brought to my seat, with at least three runs of the trolley during the hour long journey
A free newspaper (Times)
Nice friendly customer hosts who knew me, what I usually had etc (especially the Plymouth crewed morning services)

That made the difference between the 10 hours a week being an endurance and a pleasurable experience, and was worth every penny.

And it's not true that none of the TOC's offer anything worthwhile.  Virgin West and East Coast offer free catering. It's debatable as to the quality and quantity these days, although I did manage to consume four bottles of beer on my last journey from Edinburgh to London when it was still East Coast, which made the journey very enjoyable. 

By the way, an annual season ticket from Exeter and Newton Abbot works out around £1.29 per journey more in 1st Class than in standard. That's less than a copy of the Times.

(edited to correct cost from £14 per day to £7 per day)


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: JayMac on July 24, 2017, 16:04:59
None of the TOCs offer anything really worthy of upgrading to First Class.   For example a return between Exeter & Newton Abbot costs £5.80 for standard, and for First its a whopping £24, on most services I can get a seat in standard, and a coffee for less than a tenner, so what I am paying the extra £14 for? Free Wifi, No!, At   Seat Service, Hardly.

£5.80 is the Std Class Off Peak Day Return. 1st Class Off Peak Day Return for that journey is £14.40, not £24. Coffee, cake/biscuits, fruit/savouries each way and you've got your value.

To use that journey as an example and then go on to compare trains with airlines is rather disingenuous. How many flights with Business Class are there from Exeter to Newton Abbot?

As for £500 for a trip to London. What GWR fare are you looking at there?

£409 1st Anytime Return from Penzance to Paddington? That one though only bars travel on one train each way on a weekday, the 0505 from Penzance and, Mon-Thurs, the 1703 from Paddington. Otherwise it's £274.30 for the 1st Off Peak Return. Book in Advance and you can  travel 1st Class from Penzance to Paddington and back for as little as £112.

1st Class on GWR from Devon and Cornwall always seems healthily loaded throughout the day, so people are paying the fares. Even if others say (with added hyperbole) the offer is too expensive.


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: devonexpress on July 24, 2017, 16:27:17
Dearie me, talk about stirring the abocarte, All im saying is for a lot of people the price of First Class doesn't justify the cost. Most people buy coffee, and the times in shops or well before getting on the train.

Train enthusiasts are always the same though, sticking up for the train company and calling commuters idiots. Its no wonder it takes years before anything gets done to improve the passenger experience. For example most people in standard would like a at seat service because of laptops, luggage and not wanting to lose their seat, yet enthusiast slam it down, and say that a buffet car is needed. Why is it when passengers don't want it. Airline and Bus companies are miles ahead of the railways these days with smart ticketing, comfort, accessibility and age of stock. Its about time the railways sorted themselves out.

* Before anyone starts an argument, these are my thoughts, not facts. I don't change my mind so don't try to convince me.


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 24, 2017, 17:02:21
I wouldn't dream of trying to change your mind, but perhaps an acknowledgement that the fares you quoted in the original post were wrong, even if you were only trying to make a point, would be a reasonable thing to do?


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: John R on July 24, 2017, 17:19:32
Dearie me, talk about stirring the abocarte, All im saying is for a lot of people the price of First Class doesn't justify the cost. Most people buy coffee, and the times in shops or well before getting on the train.

Train enthusiasts are always the same though, sticking up for the train company and calling commuters idiots. Its no wonder it takes years before anything gets done to improve the passenger experience. For example most people in standard would like a at seat service because of laptops, luggage and not wanting to lose their seat, yet enthusiast slam it down, and say that a buffet car is needed. Why is it when passengers don't want it. Airline and Bus companies are miles ahead of the railways these days with smart ticketing, comfort, accessibility and age of stock. Its about time the railways sorted themselves out.

* Before anyone starts an argument, these are my thoughts, not facts. I don't change my mind so don't try to convince me.

All I was doing was quoting some examples of how First Class travel can cost a lot less than you quoted, and how for me, it is good value to pay the extra.  I write as someone who has done precisely that for over 8 years - not as a purely theoretical opinion. 

As an aside there are no coffee shops or newsagents between my house and the station, but that is a minor point.

The Forum thrives both on information, and on opinions, the latter being challenged, supported and disputed.  You appear to be overly sensitive to anyone giving a different opinion to yours. That's a shame, as a Forum where we can only agree with posters views would be a very poor Forum indeed.

By the way, what's an abocarte?


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: 1st fan on July 24, 2017, 17:48:19
Dearie me, talk about stirring the abocarte, All im saying is for a lot of people the price of First Class doesn't justify the cost. Most people buy coffee, and the times in shops or well before getting on the train.

Train enthusiasts are always the same though, sticking up for the train company and calling commuters idiots. Its no wonder it takes years before anything gets done to improve the passenger experience. For example most people in standard would like a at seat service because of laptops, luggage and not wanting to lose their seat, yet enthusiast slam it down, and say that a buffet car is needed. Why is it when passengers don't want it. Airline and Bus companies are miles ahead of the railways these days with smart ticketing, comfort, accessibility and age of stock. Its about time the railways sorted themselves out.

* Before anyone starts an argument, these are my thoughts, not facts. I don't change my mind so don't try to convince me.

I read the paper in the lounge and have a hot drink/nibbles there but it doesn't mean that I don't want nibbles and a drink on board as well.


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: 1st fan on July 24, 2017, 19:51:15
Dearie me, talk about stirring the abocarte, All im saying is for a lot of people the price of First Class doesn't justify the cost. Most people buy coffee, and the times in shops or well before getting on the train.

Train enthusiasts are always the same though, sticking up for the train company and calling commuters idiots. Its no wonder it takes years before anything gets done to improve the passenger experience. For example most people in standard would like a at seat service because of laptops, luggage and not wanting to lose their seat, yet enthusiast slam it down, and say that a buffet car is needed. Why is it when passengers don't want it. Airline and Bus companies are miles ahead of the railways these days with smart ticketing, comfort, accessibility and age of stock. Its about time the railways sorted themselves out.

* Before anyone starts an argument, these are my thoughts, not facts. I don't change my mind so don't try to convince me.

All I was doing was quoting some examples of how First Class travel can cost a lot less than you quoted, and how for me, it is good value to pay the extra.  I write as someone who has done precisely that for over 8 years - not as a purely theoretical opinion. 

As an aside there are no coffee shops or newsagents between my house and the station, but that is a minor point.

The Forum thrives both on information, and on opinions, the latter being challenged, supported and disputed.  You appear to be overly sensitive to anyone giving a different opinion to yours. That's a shame, as a Forum where we can only agree with posters views would be a very poor Forum indeed.

By the way, what's an abocarte?
According to Google Translate it's a Catalan word meaning "Pour you up" to answer your next question not a clue either.


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: Rhydgaled on July 25, 2017, 13:45:07
But I wonder if the low level of business you saw was because few people want the service, or because few people are prepared to risk loosing their seat (and luggage?) at an intermediate station.
That is the other problem with buffet provision (along with the small number of passengers on regional services mentioned in my earlier post); even without an intermediate station I'd be afraid of somebody stealing my luggage (if I left it at my seat) or my seat (if I took my luggage with me and it was a busy service), so going to a buffet car is awkward if travelling alone (if in a group, you can leave somebody to watch your seat(s) and bags).

Maybe on regional express routes the TOC should have an account with take-away providers on-route who can deliver some Fish & Chips to the train as required.
Wasn't there publicity about a year ago concerning Pizza delivery to a train when it called at Newport?   May have my timing and station wrong ...
I can't remember the details either, but I suspect that's what gave me the idea.

Who needs to eat hot food on a train? Most don't....
Depends on the journey. After not finding anywhere to eat in Brockenhurst that evening, I now try to restrict my travel plans to arrive by 8pm (so pubs/resturants should be open), but in the rare event that hot food is available on-route it provides the flexibility to start the journey earlier in the morning (eg. when I got the 05:33 Holyhead to Cardiff 'Y Gerallt Gymro' (from Chester onwards) I didn't have to leave time for breakfast before getting on the train) or finish later at night (which for some journeys might perhaps open the possibility of leaving after work or a half-day rather than taking a whole day off to travel). My point is that if the two problems (availablilty on quieter, but still long-distance, routes and protecting your seat/luggage while you order) can be solved the railway could potentially offer more-convienent journey options. I used to point out in this sort of discussion that the competition (cars) have motorway service stations (or similar) on-route where meals are available but they now seem to be going the same way as trains with the resturants taken out in favour of Costa and Starbucks which serve only snacks (much like those available on a railway trolley service).


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: ChrisB on July 25, 2017, 17:40:57
Because most people have realised that earing hot food isn't a daily requirement


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: chuffed on July 25, 2017, 19:17:26
Because most people have realised that earing hot food isn't a daily requirement

Next time I see someone with Hot Doggy Danglers on both lugholes, I won't know whether to put mustard or ketchup on them....


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: John R on July 25, 2017, 20:57:20
Because most people have realised that earing hot food isn't a daily requirement
Agree.  If having a hot dinner was that important to me, then I would have made sure I arrived in plenty of time to avail myself of the numerous eating establishments in Brockenhurst.  As Rhydgaled noted himself, the regional services used for the majority of that particular journey don't have enough flow of longer distance passengers to make a hot food service viable.

As an aside, I believe XC has stopped the hot food ordered in advance service which it trialled last year. I don't know whether that's because it proved logistically too difficult or there wasn't enough take up.  In the one instance someone in our family pre-ordered, it didn't arrive, which may be symptomatic of logistical issues as soon as services start to become disrupted. 


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: broadgage on July 25, 2017, 22:34:35
Because most people have realised that eating hot food isn't a daily requirement

Indeed, it is possible to travel from Paddington out to deepest Somersetshire WITHOUT partaking of a fillet steak en-route. I have done this at least twice and can confirm that that I am not only still alive now, but was also alive at the time.
The sad circumstances are reported elsewhere on these forums, it might even have been three times.
Much better with a meal though.


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: devonexpress on August 02, 2017, 23:43:00
Because most people have realised that eating hot food isn't a daily requirement

Indeed, it is possible to travel from Paddington out to deepest Somersetshire WITHOUT partaking of a fillet steak en-route. I have done this at least twice and can confirm that that I am not only still alive now, but was also alive at the time.
The sad circumstances are reported elsewhere on these forums, it might even have been three times.
Much better with a meal though.

Funny thought that when the Travelling Chef option was removed, there was outcry, and the same with the removal of buffet cars from October this year on some services. Some people would like some hot food on a 3 hour journey to Plymouth, just because YOU don't want something doesn't mean everyone else feels the same.


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: grahame on August 03, 2017, 01:41:55
Because most people have realised that eating hot food isn't a daily requirement

Indeed, it is possible to travel from Paddington out to deepest Somersetshire WITHOUT partaking of a fillet steak en-route. I have done this at least twice and can confirm that that I am not only still alive now, but was also alive at the time.
The sad circumstances are reported elsewhere on these forums, it might even have been three times.
Much better with a meal though.

Funny thought that when the Travelling Chef option was removed, there was outcry, and the same with the removal of buffet cars from October this year on some services. Some people would like some hot food on a 3 hour journey to Plymouth, just because YOU don't want something doesn't mean everyone else feels the same.

I don't think anyone objects to hot food being available on a three hour train journey, though not everyone wants to eat hot food on every journey. The catering team would find it very difficult indeed to serve everyone, unless the service was staffed / priced to the Belmont Pullman level.

There are serious discussions to be had (and have been had) about the cost of providing the facility, both in terms of what the monetary cost to the customer and the rail industry providing, and also in terms of the cost of train capacity as there's less spec available for customer accommodation.   We welcome such discussions here on the forum provided they do not drop to the level of personal attack for different views (or for other reasons).


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: ChrisB on August 03, 2017, 09:22:26
Because most people have realised that eating hot food isn't a daily requirement

Funny thought that when the Travelling Chef option was removed, there was outcry, and the same with the removal of buffet cars from October this year on some services. Some people would like some hot food on a 3 hour journey to Plymouth, just because YOU don't want something doesn't mean everyone else feels the same.

But those who do are *now* very much in a minority as very few were purchasing from the buffet when they did do hot food. Personally speaking, I don't consider something from a microwave as 'hot' food, so I gave up when Travelling Chef folded. I will concur that many more back when Travelling Chef folded did use that, but it is very evident that fewer would do now - the shops on stations cater far better than they used to, and those wanting *hot* food on a journey are few & far between - evidenced by those still taking hot food from station retailers on to the train....


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 03, 2017, 11:11:50
I don't remember much of an outcry when the travelling chef was removed - most saw it as vastly underutilised.  A shame because it provided some nice hot options, but enough people just weren't interested - though it could have been pushed much harder by GWR and the staff on board.

I can see the removal of buffets providing much more negative headlines though as many more people will be affected.  Sadly though, the number of people using them to buy anything more than you can provide on a trolley has shrunk considerably to a point where they are practically useless on the Bristol and north and south Cotswolds routes and hardly worth it for South Wales routes - especially when you take into account future journey times.  A well stocked and organised trolley service is now looking the best option given the pressure on seating provision.

However I remain of the opinion that Cornish services should still have something more than just a trolley, but can see why that is logistically problematic.


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: stuving on August 03, 2017, 11:36:32
I have the same problem at my local supermarket. I've lost count of the times they stop selling something I buy regularly, saying they are not selling enough. I mean, I'm buying it - what else matters?

Having said that, personally I prefer to have a proper lunch and dinner whenever possible - call me old-fashioned, or perhaps too much of a francophile if you like. And if I am stuck in a train, boat, or plane at meal-time it makes sense to eat then. But when even SNCF are struggling to get a food offering that works in their TGV "bar" menus, and most Intercités have just a trolley service, that's obviously the way the world is going. After all, handcarts never offered much of a meal service ...


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: ChrisB on August 03, 2017, 12:00:11
Indeed you both might, but two meals if & when you both travel won't keep the turnover up sufficiently.


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: broadgage on September 07, 2017, 22:33:09
Because most people have realised that eating hot food isn't a daily requirement

Indeed, it is possible to travel from Paddington out to deepest Somersetshire WITHOUT partaking of a fillet steak en-route. I have done this at least twice and can confirm that that I am not only still alive now, but was also alive at the time.
The sad circumstances are reported elsewhere on these forums, it might even have been three times.
Much better with a meal though.

Post #129 in this thread http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=11587.msg121302#msg121302 (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=11587.msg121302#msg121302)

Refers to my survival on a blueberry muffin.


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on September 11, 2017, 18:14:07
Wasn't there publicity about a year ago concerning Pizza delivery to a train when it called at Newport?   May have my timing and station wrong ...

Yes, that story was posted on the Coffee Shop forum (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=12787.0) at the time.

By grahame, in 2013.  ;)



Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on September 13, 2017, 22:46:09
An article in the Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/sep/11/segregation-or-acceptable-luxury-should-first-class-train-travel-be-abolished), written by Andrew Martin, covers some of the points we have also discussed in this topic:

Quote
Segregation or acceptable luxury: should first-class train travel be abolished?

Trains have traditionally been riddled with class distinction and snobbery.  As our crowded commuter routes come under pressure to stop segregating, author Andrew Martin ponders what we will lose with the scrapping of first class

That article includes a couple of images, which I include here:

(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/221e40e6a04c69f2943070bcf93430b52d455592/0_418_3508_2105/master/3508.jpg?w=1300&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&s=e1cee3e3aff2abf689f7268be6246c70)
The first-class lounge on board a London Midland & Scottish Royal Scot train in 1928. Photograph: Edward G Malindine/Getty Images

(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/34413ba5346c3a2a8ecfd8c87517685806f4b073/0_328_3587_2153/master/3587.jpg?w=860&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&s=5a864cc305d3e29b83b157b694f11576)
The 1930s Bulleid tavern rail carriage was built to resemble a mock ‘olde worlde’ pub, complete with artificial beams. Photograph: SSPL via Getty Images

Having met him a few times now, I can imagine 'broadgage' feeling very much at home there ...  ;) :D ;D





Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: broadgage on September 14, 2017, 09:12:30
Indeed, the tavern car especially.


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: RichardB on September 14, 2017, 15:05:31
Indeed, the tavern car especially.

Recreating a tavern car to Bulleid's original designs would be great.  I know they weren't popular in traffic but a recreated one now would go down a storm!  I'm not holding my breath though.........



Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: rogerw on September 14, 2017, 17:09:54
Perhaps a future project for one of the heritage railways


Title: Re: The End of First class?
Post by: Jason on September 15, 2017, 08:35:13
I need to be in that tavern car!



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