Great Western Coffee Shop

A campaign [here] (https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/great-western-railway-to-add-later-services) from 38 degrees.

David Gray who originated the campaign writes


I agree that there's a strong social case and strong business case too to be looked at for a late service.   For all potential travellers, whether they're disabled or (in the vast majority of cases) not.   The last train via Trowbridge from Bath at 23:37 is often rammed (and, yes, it's quite a long train!); the last train via Chippenham from Bath, about an hour earlier, is not because it's too early for people who want to get home after an event.

I would certainly support it.  Indeed I have looked at going to the theatre in Bath but as I don't drive and there isn't a late train, I don't go.

2245 is usually late enough for the Theatre Royal even if it's an 2000 start. Bristol at 2230 is more of an issue especially as the existing venues are a good 15 min walk from the station.

A unit at around 2300 to SWI and then returning to Westbury is one possibility if that's where the crew and set need to get to to finish their day.

Or go to Swindon/Reading for a night out? The touring shows will all visit both towns, and there's no problem with late trains back.

I regularly use Bath for a night out and rarely have to leave a show early to catch the 2247 mentioned. Yes, the timing from BRI could be 15-20mins later, which would obviously make the Bath timing later.
It comes up from TAU that train, anyone know how long its layover there is?

I'm assuming he's from Chippenham, otherwise he's use Swindon/Reading as he would live there? And there's already a later train back to Bath at 2320.

That's the point "usually" - it's going to be a pretty expensive night out if it doesn't work out.   A later train would be a safety net.


That's exactly what I do - I can walk home from Wyvern Theatre in Swindon.

Swindon doesn't have the variety of options that the Theatre Royal, Hippodrome and Colston Hall offer.  Only a few of the touring shows visit the Wyvern Theatre, and very few of the big name acts that would typically perform at the Colston Hall.    

What Swindon doesn't get, Reading usually does.

Perhaps Evening logic off Bristol Temple Meads might be via Trowbridge at 21:45, 22:45 and 23:45, and via Chippenham at 22:15 and 23:15 ... 15 minutes later off Bath Spa.  Final trains running at least as far as Swindon and Frome.


Or perhaps run the final train as a 16x from Bristol to Reading, helping circulate the fleet between depots ... Reading gets it, and Chippenham and Swindon benefit from the fallout  ;D

Indeed - I can't see GWR wanting to run an HST any later off BRI frankly - that 2235 currently pulls the equivalent of 7 coaches around with just fresh air in them now. I use it quite regularly.

I wonder where the OP lives - he doesn't say. But this is a far better idea, and I can't support the petition as currently drawn.

I'd agree that it doesn't need to be an HST, nor go to London. But the current service between Swindon and Bristol does suffer by being (almost) exclusively fitted around the London services, which does create some gaps.  Another is the hour gap in the morning west around 0700 from Swindon which means (as an example) that Chippenham pax can either arrive into Bristol at 0710 or 0817.

As an aside, is it really the case that the last train out of Frome weekdays in any direction is before 2200? How useless is that?

About 90 mins less useless than the last train out of Melksham in any direction.

There's a train out of Frome just after midnight - whether you call that "last" or "first".    I've never heard any serious suggestions that this train be added to the public timetable (it's run empty at present) but then Frome isn't within my sphere technically, so why would I have heard?

The last train from Melksham at 19:47 northbound and 20:32 southbound means that the TransWilts cannot address the "evening out" market, nor the market of people who MAY have to work very late, nor does it provide for those people who are travelling home after working a long way away;  many's the time I've personally been in Cambridge ... or Huddersfield ... or Manchester ... or Lincoln ... or Motherwell and not been able to get to Swindon in time for the 20:06.   And many's the disappointed day tripper who wants to go to Weymouth on a Saturday but would have to set off back at 16:08!

With Bath and Bristol, with Frome, and with Melksham, the accountants who look at the business cases need to remember that they're going to loose two journeys not one if they don't make proper provision for evening returns.  Then add in the extra factor of all those people who travel on the previous train, but won't use it if the know it's the last one and they might get stranded.

But at least Frome has an Arts Centre to spend an evening at?

I had noticed that there was a Frome terminator (from BRI?) around then, and couldn't discover where it then went....I assume Westbury?

Most likely, to join the other DMUs that spend the night there ready for service the following morning.

Frome and stations from BRI are indeed blessed to have the 23.20 running. It is largely used as a means to run several (15x) units to WSB ready for the morning services (presumably following servicing at St Philips Marsh). This large train returns to WSB ecs after arrival at Frome 00.18. The Sa times are slightly earlier and no Su version.

It is worth noting that this train nearly always runs even with engineering works planned. On occasions it will be timetabled to depart BRI at 22.55 and run early. A bus service is also provided to (try to) match the standard timings but of course takes considerably longer!

It wouldn't cost much to run it in passenger service all the way to WSB.

It wouldn't but I don't think it would have much custom only going back as far as Westbury.

As an aside, does the 23.20 have a nickname amongst the staff/regular users?
Being the last train, particularly on a Saturday evening, taking home those customers who've had a nice evening out in Bath along with a few drinks. I know in the past it's been a late night target at Bath for the revenue protection team.

I do not know of any nickname but conductors do remark that the service gets most "exciting" on a Friday evening and they do not welcome that particular roster.

Taking a further look ... a train at around 23:10 from Bristol via Bath and Chippenham to Swindon would arrive there at 23:55 ... returning at 00:06 it would connect off the final Swansea train (22:45 off Paddington) for Chippenham and stations to Westbury.   Running it only to Chippenham (23:45 to 23:51) would give a 22:15 connection off Paddington to Trowbridge and Westbury, where the last direct train from London is 20:35.

Carry on to London?  I don't know that there's much of a market east of Swindon either, and indeed in wouldn't need an HST's length at any point.  Wouldn't like to try it with a 153; I would predict "full, standing" or perhaps "full, falling over" for those under the influence!

Sharing some potential customer comments ...

This makes sense . For those of us who do not drive to Bristol, it opens up possibilities and is environmentally friendly.

This is a bit of a no-brainer isn't it?? Being able to have a night out, drink/enjoy yourself and get yourself home without the need for someone to drive!!! Give people an alternative and they'll use it!

Regular trips to Bath always have to be cut short

I have this problem too. I always say "Nope. Can't go to the 9PM showing at the odeon as there wouldn't be a train home until the next morning, or a bus until 3AM.

Difficult to have an evening out in bath with such early return trains

Fed up with late trains heading west but not east

I would like to be able to go for meals, cinema trips, hen parties etc. in Bath without the hassle and expense of driving and parking, then not being able to drink. I can't afford accommodation, or taxis all the way from Bath to Calne, so a late train would be fantastic.

There were times I got a taxi back to Swindon as it was cheaper than a hotel room in Bath.

Lived in Chippenham for 17 years and have always been amazed at how these Teain numpties have not worked out the money to be made from running later trains.

Frankly, they don't it....to much hassle for staff with the majority in some state. See comments elsewhere on the Frome late train from BRI.....

Last trains have got later in London, and also to some extent well outside TfL's idea of London. So on Waterloo-Reading the last train in 2000 on weekdays (+Saturday) was 22:54 ex Reading, and now there are 2:42, 23:12, then 23:52 Mon-Fri only to Ascot (but with no Earley/Winnersh calls). Sunday is still very like 2000.

From Waterloo it was 23:35 and now there are 23:20 and 23:50, and Sunday was 23:00 and is now 23:39. The new franchise SLC for Dec next year calls for last trains (presumably full route) from:

ex-	Mon-Fri	Sa	Sun
Waterloo	23:45	23:45	23:45
Reading	23:15	23:05	23:15

So that will be a little later from Reading; more so on Sunday. Note that Ascot train (which was otherwise ECS) never was in an SLC, and most days there is a later GWR service but only Reading-Wokingham.

I don't think this trend towards a "more/24" lifestyle is confined to London, so later trains ought to appear elsewhere - though maybe not during the current performance of "waiting for goodies".

My point was that it win't appear voluntarily, but need putting in a future ITT for a new franchise.

Yep, it's changing.     Should I get the pun about the last train to Earley being early in before someone else does?


I don't think it is limited to London;  noting the extra evening service to Barnstaple on (?) Friday and Saturday night, and the trains and buses from Bristol and Bath getting silly-busy not in mid evening, but in late evening.   Bit of a logistic / resources nightmare with public transport having a quieter period from around 8 p.m. for a couple of hours, though.

Very much brought home to me by long distance journeys home ... if I'm up north or in Scotland really late, I tend to end up on a Cross Country service coming into Bristol as its final run of the day.  Mouse quiet.   But then the scrum of the Frome train of which (regrettably) I have to finish with a taxi or calling in a favour of a lift.

We are currently fighting to keep our evening week day  ( Mon - Thurs ) bus  service between Frome & Bath going. The original plan was to cut funding to any bus past 8pm.The cuts would affect 4 buses the 2010 & 2210 Frome to Bath & 2110 & 2310 Bath to Frome.  This would of left commuters, students etc  in our neighbouring villages cut of from their closest city and major hospital. Frome station is not ideally situated for most to use who don't drive they would have to factor in taxi fares to their journeys especially coming home at night.

The original plan by B&NES Council had to been to cut all funding to evening bus services on the Frome to Bath route past 8pm from  April. First bus found that they could operate the Friday & Saturday evening service commercially.  I pointed out to various Councils that the cuts would hit hairdressing & engineering students whose exams were in June - July. We managed to persuade various Councils & Parish Councils along with First bus who put up most of the funding to keep the bus running until September this year.  We have recently heard from First bus that this funding will continue until April 2018.

We are currently trying to think of ways to drive up trade on the Frome to Bath evening bus service any ideas would be much appreciated.

As most of you are train folk can you help with a few things
Can you use a young persons rail card before 9am
How much is a weekly & daily  students fare between Frome & Bath
How much is an Adults weekly & daily fare between Frome & Bath

Grahame's proposal for a later train to SWI/WSB seems a very useful option and even the powers that be might take notice. At first sight it appears that GWR would "only" need an additional crew.

Subject to capacity/demand questions, one or more of the 15x units currently used on the Frome service can be sent to SWI/WSB instead therefore providing two useful late night services serving much of the region, both from BRI and PAD areas.

Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking of. The Chippenham turn around option has the disadvantage of not meeting bobm's theatre needs, and more seriously only gives Chippenham the benefit of an additional late train. Running to Swindon also gives another late option from PAD to CPM, as well as beyond to Westbury, so for the extra 30 mins of crew time, appears the better option.

1. "Yes you can. However, for all journeys made between 4.30am and 10am Monday to Friday a minimum fare of £12 is payable. There is no minimum fare when you travel at weekends, on Public Holidays, or during July and August" ... Slightly confusing that - I believe the £12 minimum applies to the ticket as a whole, so it's a £12 return if you're headed out at 08:00 and back at 17:00.

2. and 3. Frome to Bath Rail fares are tabulates at www.brfares.com (http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=FRO&dest=BTH)

To summarise in answer to your questions ... (from that site):
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/fro2bth_2017.jpg)

Child fares are from age 5 to 15; adult fares 16 and up.

QUESTION FOR OTHERS ... not sure of what happens for a season ticket held across someone's 16th birthday - is it age at purchase that counts?

Railcard discounts (and group saves) not valid on season tickets.

Longer period season tickets available - you can get anything from a month to a year.

Questions you didn't ask  ;)

a ) On some lines such as Severn Beach there are arrangements with schools which are negotiated between community and rail industry via the Community Rail Partnership for student fares / tickets.  I'm not aware of any for Frome to Bath, but it's worth checking with Heart of Wessex - even if not set up, they ay want to take this forward.

b ) Similarly, zonal / range tickets, tickets that include buses and trains, part time seasons like they're using in Cornwall where you have a ticket for three weekdays plus the weekend - ideal for part time students.

Follow up question I am asked - "what about students"?

* Some rail companies and lines provide specific offers, for example:
https://www.grandcentralrail.com/special-offers/nus-discount/

* Check for school season tickets - I don't know of any Heart of Wessex ones, but here's the Sevenside link:
http://www.severnside-rail.org.uk/school.html

* In general, the young person's railcard is useful from ages 16 to 25, not just for students
https://www.16-25railcard.co.uk

There is no general "student fare" on trains.   Once you're 16, 50% fares are a thing of the past and you move up to 66% of fares through a 16 to 25 railcard, or 100% fares where you're making a journey that doesn't cover.   Students who can hold a disabled railcard should take a look at that as it's likely to offer a wider range of services that can be discounted to 66%.

P.S. I feel a thread split coming on ... this ain't late night trains to Chippenham and Swindon ...

Before you do - oh what generosity between peak & off-peak return - a whole 10p!!!

You need to tidy up the URL above as it's currently broken.

Automatic URL highlighting issue - I have fixed the specific link in the original post and in the quoting here.  You'll need to do it in your quote, ChrisB  ;D

You omitted the url + /url operatives. All fixed in my post too

There is a slightly later X31 (but run by first as it's council funded I believe) bus that leaves Bath at 23:00 for Chippenham, though obviously a lot longer journey that the train.  Gives you an extra 15 mins if your Chippenham pax, and cheaper than a taxi.
I am not looked at what other onward travel options (if any) this bus would give you upon it's arrival in Chippenham.
I've heard this bus then runs empty back to it's depot in Bath

In the interest of primary research I sampled 2C36 from Bath to Frome last evening. This is the first occasion I have used this service for "some time." The stock was a 3-car 158 and therefore, if this is the standard arrangement, then suggestions above for diverting a unit to SWI/WSB will not easily apply. The overall concept remains a very useful aim and not too difficult to arrange.

The service was perhaps about 40-50% seats taken last evening with general good behaviour. The conductor was visible and pro-active. I also casually noted several 158's parked at WSB with only 1 x 150 present (not a full survey!)

I don't think the proposal was to divert that service via SWI (would take far too long), but to run an additional service around 2300.

The final Bristol to Frome train has been running much of the time as 6 carriages (I appreciate that it may be less due to extra maintenance at the moment) with 2 carriages locked out of use.

Proposal was to run a 4 carriage train as at present, and a 2 carriage train a few minutes earlier / later from Bristol, calling Bath, Chippenham and Swindon, then running from Swindon to Chippenham, Melksham, Trowbridge and Westbury.  Practicallity at reasonable price subject to (a) the stock needing to move from Bristol to Westbury next year too when the diagrams have been amended and (b) existing crew having hours on their shift available to run it.  Failure on either of those points and it would probably need a financial sponsor, or to be written in to the next franchise.

Looking at various Facebook posts (as one does ....) relating to Swindon, I came across an active and somewhat angry discussion about the cost of late night (after the last train) taxis from Chippenham to Swindon ...

Fits the pattern of confirming demand

Makes me wonder (again) if off-peak fares could end at 10 p.m.

Like the taxi fares rise around that time?....interesting thought

As a regular commuter (and newbie on here) between WSM and Temple Meads I know too well the problems about "last" trains home

As we stand the below are the last trains on each of these evenings from Temple Meads back to WSM:

MONDAY 23:36
TUESDAY 23:36
WEDNESDAY 23:36
THURSDAY 23:36
FRIDAY 23:36
SATURDAY 22:17
SUNDAY 23:12

I've always been amazed that there is a later service on a Sunday evening rather than a Saturday

Engineering possessions are generally taken on a Saturday night so that NR can check the line.

When a service is specified as part of a franchise or management contract, one of the elements specified usually relates to the times of the first and last train. For example "The first train will arrive into Thamesdown Central no later than 08:30 and the last train will leave no earlier than 17:30".

The issues of first and last trains are very much on the radar for the next Great(er) Western franchise. The team putting together a draft specification on which to have a public discussion / consultation next year have sought inputs as to where passengers would like to see first and last train updates ... far from cast in stone, of course, but a sensible idea of where to start the fine tuning from.

Bristol to Weston-super-mare isn't the only service to finish earlier on a Saturday, by the way - Westbury to Swindon is another, with a last train at about 18:30 on Saturday and after 19:30 the rest on the week.   Sunday evenings can be very busy with longer distance traffic, so the later services that night aren't a surprise even if buses - typically shorter distance - are thinnest on a Sunday evening.