Great Western Coffee Shop

Depends how you look at it. If more efficient and safer lorries are replacing the ones we have at the moment, that's good. If they're replacing freight trains, not good; unless the platooned lorries manage to be more efficient and safer than trains, of course, but I think that's unlikely. And of course, rail will be changing too; there might even be platooned, driverless trains – or something completely different that we haven't thought of yet.

Making road transport more efficient, more environmentally friendly and safer is good, yes.

BUT, electric trains (and buses) are presumably always going to be even more efficient and environmentally friendly, so losing these options to a second-best state of afairs is my concern (particularly for freight, where lorries are set to remain diesel even if their fuel economy will improve with automation). Or to put it another way:

BEST

• 1) Electric railways, with electric buses and electric cars feeding into them, legs of frieght transport done on electric trains
• 2) Electric cars and automated lorries, modal shift away from public transport and clousure of non-electrified lines leaving few railways (with no freight trains left) and even fewer bus services
• 3) Heavy use of petrol and diesel cars, with public transport having a small mode share (including some freight on rail)
• 4) No railways or buses, all transport by petrol and diesel cars and lorries

WORST

So, we may be going to move up from 3) (where we are now), so a step in the right direction, but I'm worried we are heading for 2) rather than the ideal of 1). Also, the list above might not be in the correct order, depending on what the impact of modal shift away from rail (particularly for frieght) is in terms of greenhouse gas emissions.

We might make 1) for long distance travel - electric cars won't have the range of their petrol/diesel equivalents

Depends on how long they take to recharge and the prevalence of charging stations. I do Bristol to Sheffield (180m) reasonably frequently, so would be quite happy to plug the car in whilst I have a cup of coffee mid-route. 

Think you might be ordering a hot meal, methinks :-)

I'd hope you could get 200ish miles out of a charge - so you'd just need a charging point at your destination to get you back again.

The name given to the charging points developed in Japan, Chademo, derives from the Japanese for "Time for a cup of tea." I think the idea is a few short top ups on route, with most charging done overnight, rather than one long charge.

There are charging stations at most motorway service stations, which are capable of DC fast-charging to 80% capacity in about 30 minutes. This map shows Ecotricity's chargers (https://www.ecotricity.co.uk/for-the-road/our-electric-highway), though there are many, many others.

A good current electric car with a 30kWh battery will get you about 160km, but the next generation (Tesla Model 3, Nissan Leaf, Chevrolet Volt EV) look likely to hit that 320 km sweet spot. Obviously the premium Teslas are already there. Most people who are in a position to splash out on a new car are probably of an age where their bladder runs out of range before their car does...

You think there's enough of them to even handle 50% take-up on electrics? The queue, at 30mins a charge, will be massive.

Quite,  we are still at the very early stages.  At the moment some of the attraction of owning an electric car is that you can rely on a free parking space and in many places free electricity at charging stations.  When electric becomes the norm that will no longer apply.

Personally, whilst I do see electric as the future, I suspect that our cars (much like our trains) will be carting around a small internal combustion engine for a while yet) for journeys beyond the electricity supply. 

Well you can't actually, in my experience - I've not found a place where you don't pay the same to park as everyone else, and it's depressingly common to find a fossil-powered vehicle blocking access to the charging stations.


No, and it would indeed. I am conscious that there are others on this forum who know far more about electricity supply than I do, but I am fairly confident that adding new chargers incrementally will keep up with demand for a while; the cost per charger is relatively low.

Hmmm, in pretty quick time there'll be a need for every car park space to be fitted.

Take up, once under way, will be quick - manufacturers will ensure that there's enough attractive credit available.

Time to move this interesting debate into a separate thread?

No, not at present, but more can be and will be built if the demand exists.

In 1900 I doubt that enough petrol suppliers existed to fill up the present number of cars, but I do not recall the development of petrol cars being significantly hampered by lack of petrol.

But the issue is that it takes about three minutes to fill a car with fuel. The charge time is far longer.

Maybe that's why all petrol stations have turned into mini supermarkets and there's only ever one person on the till and the entire local community are in front of you doing their whole week's shop? They are simply training us to be there longer.

What a brilliant conspiracy theory.  ;D

:D It does highlight another issue though. There is, apparently, very little margin in selling petrol and diesel retail. Which is why petrol stations need to sell all sorts of other stuff, including turning themselves into Costas, to make a decent income. Will there be profit in selling electrons at high enough voltage and current to rapid charge cars? Until recently, many rapid charging stations were literally giving it away, in order to build up a customer base. Obviously there's no money in slow charging, cos most people will do that at home.

But fast charging that takes a few minutes - thats a retail opportunity!

Could also work the other way; corner stores and post offices might start installing rapid chargers for their customers to use, selling the electricity at a slight profit to supplement shop income and draw in customers. Unlike with petrol, there aren't the fire hazards (might be some but I haven't heard of any, and the chargers are commonly installed in unsupervised areas) and they don't create a stink. It's never quite made sense to me to be sold "fresh" food in an atmosphere of petrol and diesel fumes.

It has to be remembered that most car journeys in the UK are commute with an average of around 40 mile round trip.

One of the problems with renewable energy like solar and wind is storing it, one solution is electric cars, with smart tariffs and charging points you could drive your electric car to the station, office, supermarket, home etc car park at a charging point and your car recharges when the tariff says its economical to charge.  The technology needs to be refined to allow contactless charging points.  Its all do able now just not market refined.

As for longer journeys current battery technology allows 200 plus miles on a charge, after 200 miles personally I need a break from driving, fast charge points could charge the battery in 20 mins.  You would pay a higher tariff as this is a recharge on demand.

There is also regen breaking to consider on electric cars and lorries.

 

20 minutes - that's just time for a quiet cup of tea for the driver in a service area!

Ecotricity charge 17p/kWh, plus a £3 connection fee (waived for their customers). Pretty cheap compared with petrol or diesel, partly because electric motors are so efficient but also in part because you're paying a lot less duty.

Interesting times ahead: at some point the Treasury will presumably want to find a way to replace the revenue they are losing; at the same time the price of oil is likely to fall making internal combustion cheaper.

Why is the price of oil likely to fall around 2040? Scarcity makes prices rise.

Indeed, the oil price fluctuates all the time for various reasons, but I expect that the long term trend would be upwards. Not only are total oil reserves limited, but most remaining oil is hard to extract and therefore expensive to get at.
A lot comes from the Middle east, a region noted for wars, instability, and religious hatred.

Sorry have I missed something - was anyone here suggesting that the price of oil would fall around 2040?

Someone once said to me that the value of oil in making plastics was so great it was too valuable resource to burn.

As an aside - hasn't this thread strayed along way from the subject.  Is it time for some splitting?

Thanks ChrisB

well, continuing to, rather than yet again, surely.

I was. I subscribe to the view that relatively small reductions in demand cause the price of oil to drop sharply; it's something to do with the way that the price is more dependent on sentiment and futures than pure supply and demand.

There; I've done the difficult bit. Now we just need a mod to shift the relevant stuff to this topic  :) ;) ;D

That might be so if the level of oil availability in 2040 would be the same as it is now - it will be a lot less by then, while demand from the developing nations will be higher.

I would have agreed with you ten years ago, but with the exploitation of shale oil I'm not sure we're likely to hit peak oil any time soon. The hope is that the price drops so low that it gets left where it is.

As an aside, a lot of developing nations are in areas where cheap solar energy is likely to be more attractive on price than even cheap oil, if the price of solar continues to drop as it is doing.

If there were to be a further price drop from Shale, we'd have seen it by now. It's dropped as far as it has because of that.

But shale oil is far more expensive to produce so if  the price drops too much they will just stop producing it!

Angry dolphins, I think! Shale has postponed peak oil, meaning supply will hold up; renewables will however reduce demand leading to a fall in price.

Or the unwanted oil being keft in the ground as mow to hold up the price. I can't see a reason why this wouldn't continue to be the case by OPEC going forward. Its not that they need the additional cash....

As an oil man, who's done a fair bit of shale oil (and gas), the feeling in the industry right now is not Peak Oil (that elusive maximum that never seemed to arrive) but rather Peak Demand.  With improving efficiencies and new technologies, this appears to be far more in the field of the expected.  Shale has merely put a cap on current (and near future) prices such that $60/bbl will be very difficult to break through with current untapped resource potential and under-utilised development infrastructure.

Whatever happens to oil price and demand, Treasury isn't going to wait till 2040 to find a way to tax "automotive electricity". I'm going to guess we'll see something around 2021. The question is how they do it: A special duty for electricity from rapid chargers? Some way of deciding what domestic current is being used for, either technological or bureaucratic? Or just slap it on all electricity?

And yes, this stuff could really do with being split!

Demand pricing for high currents is seems the most likely to me. 

Oh, that I could do that! It is a fascinating discussion, which may even challenge entrenched opinions, but it doesn't belong here. Strictly, it doesn't belong anywhere on the FGW Coffee Shop forum, but I am sure that TPTB (see Abbrevs list) will find a place, given that electricity is central to electrification.

Which takes me sort of back on thread. If we are going to electrify public transport, the mainline railway is the obvious place to start. National Grid power lines often follow railway corridors, putting supply options close to demand. Commuter rail lines and tramways use less power per train mile, if not per passenger mile - and I am sure that ET or II will provide equations. Only around 30% of the rail network is currently electrified, and with the sort of power the big trains use, it is clear that if we switched the whole network over to electricity tomorrow, there would be generational problems.

In fact, while figures of how much electricity is produced by different sources are bandied about, hailed, or debunked, it remains a truth that less than 40% of our nation's energy use is, at the point of use, provided by electricity. We have HSTs that use diesel to produce electricity to power motors that transport a few hundred passengers and a few hundred gallons of diesel and a generator/rectifier rig weighing a couple of hundred tonnes each train. We heat our homes by oil, LPG or gas (or coal and logs in the case of my Devon hideaway), most of us cook our food by gas. And the big heffalump in the room is the 90%+ of road vehicles powered by fossil fuels.

We need to turn this around, or at least the conventional wisdom says, and I don't disagree with that. I will not shed any tears when coal finally disappears off the power generation agenda, nor oil, which is almost gone in this country anyway.

The Chancellor has no problem in balancing the books. The market will do it for him. Currently, the VAT rate on household power is a quarter that of goods, and while you can trickle charge one of your Teslas in the time it takes to entertain your supermodel missus and her Ukrainian cousin you will not be able to separate automotive power from home consumption. The Chancellor will instead find ways to levy the tax at the point of production rather than consumption. When the price of such cars drops, however, you may find it cheaper.

We may find electricity becomes expensive in a progressive way, as Bmblbzzz suggested, and as actually happened in, I believe France, when a primitive leccy meter tipped ball bearings into a container as you turned on the appliances. Think - why else would we have "Smart" meters? Some apparently learned academics suggest that we can all use our washing machines at 3 am when don't want our sleep interrupted by a washing machine, so that we can use wind turbines and solar power to do the business. I'm not sure about you, but I don't see the sun shining at 5 pm on a December night. Nor do I see the wind blowing during those sometimes month long winter highs. The "Smart" meters are no different to the plans for differential pricing by petrol stations to change the price throughout the day, tried in the early eighties, and abolished in the early eighties. We all love a bargain.

Before you say I am pointing out the problems without suggesting a solution, I am up for Thorium rather than Uranium as a fuel for a chain of nuclear power stations. That would power the base load of around 30GWh, any excess being used to charge electric cars.  Or storage heaters. There would be no need for any batteries, at least not until we have several million wind turbines, possibly one each, as we need diesel backup for each MWh now.

Warning:  This is not recommended by the fire and rescue services. Domestic appliance fires are more common that you think and at night present a much greater risk.  I speak from experience. 

Our home charger, part-funded by an OLEV grant, reports our usage via a wi-fi link. It's not a giant leap to imagine that this information could be used by HMRC. Of course you could get around this by trickle-charging off a 13A socket, but with the data available it would be as easy to prove you'd done this as it is to dip for red diesel.


So what shall we do with the thousands of spare ten-year-old car batteries that still have a 20-30kWh capacity remaining? Seems a shame to throw them away...

Incidentally, whilst (as you may have noticed) I am a strong advocate of CAVs and BEVs, I do absolutely agree that public transport should be the first priority for electrification. The best time to electrify the railways is twenty years ago; the second best time is now.

I suspect that attempting to charge a higher rate for electricity used for battery charging will be fraught with difficulties and open to fraud.
Simpler to give up on that idea and raise the money by either a flat rate road tax, or by charging for road use per mile.

Yep, I reckon road tax.....

There are various examples of the same thing being taxed at different rates according to usage: industrial ethanol is cheaper than pure ethanol for making into drinks, heating oil is cheaper than diesel for your car, and until the 1970s electricity in Italy was cheaper for lighting than for other purposes. That was simple to charge with two separate meters and simple to cheat by special plugs which would fit a light socket. It's probably technically possible to do something more sophisticated to determine usage now, but it might not be worth it.

Indeed - a requirement to fit another meter with the charger?.....

I expect that, as Red Squirrel says and as I've heard from a Nissan Leaf owner I know, the data is recorded by the car without any need for a second meter. I also expect that, as Broadgage says, it's simpler to do it via VED (and via VAT on all electricity).

That depends on whether a flat rate is chosen over charging for each charge. Is the vehicle able to differentiate between a quick charge & a trickle charge, for example?

Flat Rate is most easily done through VED, while a usage-charge via collecting the car's charge recording somehow, providing the answer to the query above is positive. There is an argument for fast-charges to carry a (slightly) higher rate of duty than a trickle charge.

Most European countries have national plug/socket systems. Many have been replaced by Schuko/Europlug, including Italy's; these come in two types, with different pin size and spacing. That's because electricity used to be supplied separately for power and lighting, at different rates. I'm sure you can guess how well that was enforced - especially in Italy.

Going off topic this thread isn't it but here is my pennyworth.

For electric vehicles a small meter no bigger than a box of matches could be fitted with a sensor to record the hours the power pedal is in use and can be used to determine an equivalent to the vehicle fuel duty payable on a specific vehicle. Thus a motorist wouldn't be paying twice when for example one takes a foreign holiday and returns to a flat battery.

A similar system was used by plant hire companies years ago and may still be used today whereby the hire charges are based on a low rental fee over a long term, and I mean years, plus a ' use by the hour ' charge.

How this ' electricity fuel duty ' was payable to HMRC is another matter but I would assume that it could be payable in advance by means of a smart card which would become the electric cars equivalent of an ignition key.

What about adaptors for use abroad?....and different voltages.....

EVs cope with different voltages anyway and some (probably most) will take DC as well as AC.

so it'll just be adaptors that need carrying?

I'll be very happy to do that, Red Squirrel - but which particular posts did you have in mind?

I think it might involve quite a bit of work... so let's blame grahame ;) and say it all started here:

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=5066.msg217146#msg217146

Or you could say here:

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=5066.msg217198#msg217198

Ah, yes: I see what you mean, Red Squirrel.  ::)

I have started the task of moving and merging those relevant topics, but it will probably have to be completed tomorrow - I now need some sleep!  :o

Thanks, CfN. Your efforts are appreciated!

Thank you for the splitting and moving. It must have been quite a task.

Coincidentally, I was thinking about this thread, which was then still empty AFAIK, just yesterday. Specifically about autonomous vehicles. (Oh no! Will this require splitting from electric vehicles?!!!) Simply that, if you have a car made in the last ten years or so, you probably already have an autonomous vehicle. Think about what a modern car does: locks the doors without you pressing any buttons, turns its lights on as soon as it gets dark, switches on the wipers when it detects rain, turns the indicators off when you straighten up after a turn. Bleeps when it detects something close behind as you're parking. Some even brake autonomously if they detect an obstacle. And switch the hazard warning lights on when you hit it. And of course they've been selecting their own gears since the 1930s. We don't think of this as autonomous because it's come in bit by bit over time, but it's in this way, as increasing driver aids, that totally autonomous vehicles are most likely to come about. The self-steering, lane following functions in Teslas and others (Audi have something similar) is obviously a big step towards this. Over the next few years and decades it will inevitably trickle down to lower models. Hopefully it will become more reliable too!

Update to my post of yesterday: the European Commission is considering making Autonomous Emergency Braking and Intelligent Speed Adaptation compulsory in new vehicles. ISA is "an in-vehicle system that uses information on the position of the vehicle in a network in relation to the speed limit in force at that particular location" to prevent or deter exceeding the speed limit.
https://www.euroncap.com/en/vehicle-safety/the-rewards-explained/autonomous-emergency-braking/
https://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/specialist/knowledge/speed/new_technologies_new_opportunities/intelligent_speed_adaptation_isa_en

The SAE recognises six levels of autonomy:

 0    No Driving Automation   
 1    Driver Assistance
 2    Partial Driving Automation
 3    Conditional Driving Automation
 4    High Driving Automation
 5    Full Driving Automation

So most modern cars are at level 1 or 2.

I am not one to rave about cars, having a reasonably sensible one to get me around. But while in a car pak airside at an airport, I remarked on one I saw parked, because it looked posh and I didn't recognise the badge.
"It's my Tesla" said the man beside me. "I'll show you."
I made to walk to the car, but he took his phone from his pocket and opened an app. The car then came to us. sans chauffeur.
Useful add-on, or gimmick?

Nice touch but nothing new in a phone opperated car FTN
Q Branch were supplying the senior employees with this option back in the 1990s ;D
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=smou7nQTcis .

Tesla's 'summon' feature is level 3 or 4 autonomy - you ask it to come to you, and it works out how best to get there. Bond's BMW 'seven-hundred-and-fifty' is no better than level 0 - it's just a remote control system; no autonomy at all. And I think there was a bloke inside really.

BMW's iNext, however, is slated for release in 2021 and features level 3.5 autonomy. By then, Tesla hope to be at level 5.

"Ah, Western Pathfinder! I've been expecting you!"


I'm not sure I want to be around for Level 6 Autonomy, where powerful magnetic fields drag me from my seat in the Nuggets Templar into a waiting Tesla to be whizzed away to who knows where, leaving bobm, Red Squirrel and bignosemac to share my new pint and crisps, all controlled by an angry Mrs FT, N! from a sunbed in Tenerife...

Our local Ikeal is a mere 2km from where we live, so we seldom feel the need to avail ourselves of the Ecotricity recharging facility there. This evening, however, was an exception: Mrs Squirrel had been out to visit her ailing mum, leaving us with a mere 20km of range on the old jalopy, so it seemed reasonable to inject a couple of volts while we tucked into our veggy balls and chips.

We knew where the charging station was, having eyed it up previously. Once I'd backed into the right charging position - the leads are quite short so you need to get it right - and inspected the damaged paintwork from my first attempt where I'd inadvertently aligned myself with the AC charger - I plugged in the CHAdeMO and got my phone out. You need a smartphone because you need the app. So: poik the Ecotricity app, tell your phone to stop talking to the car's WiFi that doesn't connect to the interweb and then, after few moments - voila! Nowt. Thing is, you're in the Ikeal car park, buried deep in the bowels of the earth, so bandwidth is to say the least restricted.

Cutting a long story short, in the end it was all quite simple. All you need to do is:

1. Plug your car in;
2. Make a note of the charger station's serial number;
3. Leave the car park by the nearest exit and find somewhere with a 4G signal;
4. Log on, supply the charger station details manually;
5. Dash back to the car before the system resets itself;
6. If necessary (it was first time I tried) go back to step 2;
7. Poik the button on the charger station that says 'Yes please bloody well charge my car' (or words to that effect).
8. Go get dem veggy balls. They were yummy, actually.

Bit like public transport really - easy when you know how!

So much easier just to take your HFC car to a filling station and fill the tank when you run low on fuel,also no need to mess about with a suitable length of flex !
And whilst I am in favour of low emissions ,I don't like large dirty battery packs that pollute and cost almost as much as the dam car did in the first place, and waste energy by having to drag all the extra weight around all the time .
Granted the filling stations for HFC are few and far between at the moment ,it's only a matter of time before the situation improves.

As a delivery van driver in my day job, I'm rather intrigued by this - from the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-41025771):

Not sure if this post applies here so feel to start a new thread.

Re autonomous vehicles heard on today they are planning to trail 3 lorry convoys on motorways, with speed control from front vehicle so 2nd and 3rd  vehicles they can slipstream and save fuel. All vehicle will have drivers to steer but speed will be controlled by lead vehicle by WIFI. Convoy will be 60 m in length.

A number of points arise how are the convoys formed? Once on the motorway or do they enter and leave the motorway as a convoy,. if the latter i can think of many junctions where it would be great fun to try and get a convoy onto the motorway.

Not sure I'd like to be the 2nd or 3rd driver thundering along inches from the vehicle in front.

That's the trouble with self-deprecating humour... :) My point was that it's a bit absurd locating a charging station that requires access to mobile internet in a basement where there is no signal. In fact (and this does rather spoil my story), when this one was installed Ecotricity had a card system which worked there.

It is vanishingly unlikely that HFC will take off as a means of powering private motor cars - battery technology is improving quickly, and the infrastructure of battery charging stations is so much easier and cheaper to roll out. BEVs will ultimately dominate because they are simple and cheap. Those car owners (about half) who have a driveway will be able charge at home; for them the advantages are already there to be grasped.

I quite like HFC technology. But it ain't happening.

So far as I can tell, the nearest HFC filling point is at the Honda factory in Swindon, with plans for one in Bristol at some future point in time. That doesn't make it particularly convenient. I had a LPG car once, there being at the time about 3 places in Bristol where I could fill up. LPG is much more widely available these days, but I can't see hydrogen getting the point of justifying a big roll out of infrastructure.

I too have a self-defecating sense of humour, so spotted Red Squirrel's point.

Is that in the sense of 'hitting the fan' every time ??




Edit note: Quote marks corrected, for clarity. CfN.

Good to see they have not wasted any money on design but rather appear to have just copied an existing, well-loved design...


(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41UTg7JaEFL.jpg)

 ;D

For completeness, given that this is not exactly hot off the press:

More in the line of Derek and Clive Live's "Laugh? We nearly sh*t!"

I have not laughed so much scince grandma died of auntie Mabel caught her left buffer ! In the mangle.

That one!

There was no blanket.

That will puzzle a few, bnm!

I didn't know there was a charging point at Ikea. It would be more fitting if there were an HFC or even LPG station, after all it's a stone's throw from Gas Lane and spiritual home of the Gas Heads. And Emu. Yes, that Emu.  (http://www.footballandmusic.co.uk/the-curse-of-the-emu/)

LPG is available less than 2 miles from the Big Blue Place, at Morrisons. Hydrogen can be found a mere 44 miles away at the Honda plant in Swindon.

Elon Musk has just launched the Tesla Semi-Truck. There's an article about the launch here (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/17/elon-musk-tesla-electric-truck-sports-car-surprise), or a YouTube vid of the full launch here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_8ToNr6p6o).

Key points were:

* Total cost of ownership is claimed to be 20% less than a diesel truck;
* 805km range;
* Better ability to hold speed on hills;
* Far better acceleration

Musk also has rail in his sights - in convoy mode, these trucks are cheaper than rail.

I was talking to a lorry driver and an electric car owner (two separate people, one conversation) a while ago and the lorry driver reckoned that at least in his industry – delivering roof trusses to building sites – the problem with electric lorries is that these destinations don't have electricity. Possibly a range of "805km" (smells like spurious precision to me!) would overcome this. Still, I expect the purchase price would be an obstacle.

I think 805km comes out as a round number in US Customary Units.

Obviously the range will vary dependent on circumstances. I believe this is also true for internal (and indeed external) combustion vehicles.

The purchase price is almost irrelevant to people running diesel trucks - they're interested in the lease cost, and the TCO. If Musk is right, they'd be mad to stick with diesel assuming that he actually manages to get these trucks into production.

I don't know much about the truss-delivery industry: it may well be the case that truss lorries never stop anywhere with an electrical supply, and that their return journeys typically exceed 800km. It that's the case, they may have to take the hit and keep running on diesel.

It's 500 miles, 358 yards, 2 feet, 1²/₅ inch.  :P

A 500 mile range would be 804km 672m.

Well if I may introduce you to Bmblbzzz...


...I'll just nip to the kitchen and see how the vol-au-vents are doing...

Get thee to the pedant step!

Baked at 427¾° Fahrenheit?

I liked the look of the Musk lorry cab, but the size of the battery pack behind it put me off.

I like to give them about 10 minutes at 200 ^oRéaumur, and then reduce that to -75 ^oDelisle for a 刻

There's always one!  ;D ;) ???

About twenty minutes in the top oven of the Aga should do you right!.

For those who may be interested in these things ,our if you've ever wondered about life after Red Dwarf  https://www.fullychargedshow.co.uk/.