Great Western Coffee Shop

As I posted in the TV infrastructure failures I was on the Valley Legend on Sunday 330/7, Paddington Ebbe Vale and Tower Colliery.

Cracking trip on time or early until signal failure between Maidenhead and and Slough.

However, the trips up the valleys were very disappointing most of the way the tracks were lined with trees and you couldn't see beyond them to pick out interesting features such as the pillar for Walnut tree Viaduct at Taft Wells. They even hit the coaches in several places. It even applies to the Mainlines you can't now see Llanwern Steelworks.

Glad I went dining cracking grub and service.

But it makes me wonder if it's worth doing such trips in future.

Same applies to the Central Wales line from Llanelli to Craven Arms

It's deliberate to stop those weird shouty spotter types from verbally abusing people innocently waiting at stations along the route whilst poking themselves out of a window as far as possible!   ;D

Seriously though, I don't think there is any obligation for NR to clear vegetation apart from sites with poor visibility, limited clearances or low adhesion sites. I'd personally rather they concentrated on important stuff rather than fiddling about opening views up. It's also worth noting that dense trees/undergrowth and especially thorn bushes and brambles make very, very effective barriers against trespass and also help to keep any noise subdued for neighbours, so a multitude of reasons why they may be retained.

There's actually not much left of Llanwern these days, certainly no longer a steelworks in the literal sense, a rolling mill only - a better bet if you want to view a steelworks from a train is to travel past Port Talbot.

I'll find out for myself later today!  ;D

Good news for Dendrologists.


It's all relative ... I'm sure you'll enjoy.

The greening of the valleys since the coal mines were shut down is in my opinion one of the more positive aspects of the industrial changes which occurred in the 70s and 80s.  Though as they are still some way short of a tourist attraction then I would agree that tree clearance to give passengers views should probably come fairly low down NR's its of priorities, unlike in Scotland where I believe there is an effort being made on the Highland lines to do so.   

I much prefer our UK shrubbery - even if the greening gives way to some blocking of the view - to that which I saw in California last November from the Los Angeles to Lancaster train:

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/bush_001.jpg)

Where it's prone to natural (and indeed unnatural) bush / forest fires which spread because it's so dry, leaving:

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/bush_002.jpg)

A while back I was showered with bits of leaf and maybe the odd twig somewhere between Swansea and Carmarthen as the 150 I was on (or it may have been a 153) rubbed against the lineside trees. I can understand the 'clearing the view is a low priority' comments but when the vegetation starts making contact with the rolling stock it is time to act, as it may damage the paint on the train and if the windows are open can result in passenger discomfort (although on the latter point use of a 150 on a journey longer than an hour also results in passenger discomfort so perhaps an even higher priority should be to get new trains (or mark 2 aircons) suitable for the longer runs).

Three Rivers got it spot on with their charter to Fawley ... used a narrower train ;-)

There's a fast growing tree near Staverton on the single line section from Trowbridge to Melksham ... problem isn't limited to rural branches and wilder parts of Wales.  Come to think of it, there are still a few who consider TransWilts a rural branch!

Don't you believe that.  I was on the West Highland Line last week (up on Sleeper, down with Scotrail 153s) and the number of branches swiping the trains was very high.  On the way up, the sleeper driver even had stopped a couple of times and together with the Guard went to inspect the line ahead on foot to see if it was clear of branches.  On the trip south sever sprigs of Spruce got picked off branches by the open hopper windows and ended up in the cabin. 

For me, the worst example of a train v tree incident was this one:

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/07/14/article-0-0A6FD938000005DC-875_634x520.jpg)

See http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1294613/Miracle-escape-train-driver-120mph-express-struck-falling-tree.html

 :o

I've just stumbled over this (as if it's a fallen tree) from Rail Engineer, June 2017 (https://www.railengineer.uk/2017/06/29/seeing-the-wood-in-the-trees-network-rail-tackles-troublesome-trees/):

It's a long article - even that's only a short excerpt. But basically, they now have a whizzy computerised map (part of their ORBIS project) of all neighbouring trees and will be conducting detailed interviews (of the kind that needs a chainsaw to hand) with some of them.

Looking at Chris's favourite picture of the tree that wanted to be a train driver (above), you might doubt that statement about "Less than this [150 mm] and the damage they could potentially cause is not deemed a significant safety risk."

PS: Sorry about the missing link, which I've now added.

Excessive vegetation, trees and shrubs leads to damage to rolling stock and risk of lineside fires and subsidence of cuttings sides and embankment slopes.  Think of the downwards pressure exerted on a slope by a hefty tree.  Roots can also affect drainage.  A couple of years back I took a trip down the Newquay branch and back.  The two-car unit was badly bashed from the sides by overhanging trees.

I understand that NR are cutting back vegetation on the Cotswold Line in preparation for IEPs so they don't get damaged - 7 metres clearance apparently

Was desperately needed on the Cotswold Line anyway as it had been allowed to grow to ridiculous levels in some places.

I very much doubt rolling stock is damaged by the outer branches and leaves of standing trees as passing vehicles will cause a continuous pruning effect, so heavy branches will not develop, assuming there is a regular passage of trains. Probably sounds worse from inside the train than it actually is.

Could you also explain what you think the source of ignition is for these line side fires and how it is able to ignite living vegetation?



Bit more complex than this. Tree roots will commonly find their way into solid rock and will even interact with rock at the level of the crystal/grain structure (i.e. an interaction with weak chemical bonds). The root structure generally reinforces surface soils & sediments (think of re-bar in concrete) and ties everything to the underlying geology where the surface deposits are not too thick, so is generally a good thing for slope stabilisation. A dense canopy also has a significant slowing effect on rainfall (canopy throughfall) which can reduce surface erosion considerably. Removal of trees on clay rich soils can cause all sorts of problems with water retention and clay swelling, so it is critically important to look at soil and subsoil type, particularly where slopes are involved.

Of course every site is different and this ongoing study by NR should identify which sites require attention in a more scientific manner than has previously been the case. The basic principles of lineside vegetation management remain unchanged as far as I can see.

NR are cutting back to 7 metres clearance as they don't want it to *scratch* the IEPs.....

"Such a scene of urban dereliction. I remember when this was all pitheads and steelworks!"

The knocking of branches on the roof and sides of the unit we were travelling in was quite pronounced, and the exterior finish (a vinyl wrap, I presume) showed the scratches left from the encounters with the trees.

Fires start in the dead undergrowth and will spread to live vegetation, when hot enough.  Possible ignition sources include discarded, empty glass bottles  and vandalism.  In my days working on the railways, I saw both. 




You obviously have superior knowledge.  But I will say that the old-school P-way inspectors (whose role seems to have been superseded these days) preferred to cut trees down before they got too big, citing pressure on slopes and the loosening effect on the soil (usually clay on embankment sides) when trees move in the wind, particularly when the soil is wet.  Maybe they were just looking something for their gangs to be working on in-between those lucrative Saturday night/Sunday morning relaying jobs?  The PWI I am thinking of had 50 years experience on the railways of the westcountry.

You can certainly see the effects in scratches on the vinyls, and sometimes leaves and small branches in the carriage.  You don't usually hit anything too substantial but the first train through after a heavy shower weighs down the leaves and branches and can result in more than what you'd call a gentle brushing.  Also of course, the closer the trees to the track, the more likely you are to hit fallen or damaged branches that may be brought down by winds.

PWI Charlie Curtis of Westbury or Dick Sloman of Yeovil ?!

Not only do encroaching trees /vegetation scratch rolling stock paintwork, impair and even prevent use of the lineside cess by Rail staff and in emergencies others - even passengers being evacuated from a train, but it has an adverse aerodynamic effect in slightly impeeding a train's movement. Also train staff may, say at slow speed, need to put their head out to check something.

Seriously encroaching unmanaged lineside vegetation 'hedges', currently kept trimmed by trains, are increasingly noticeable on the former GWR/WR  lines.
Make a journey on the former Southern main line between Salisbury and Whimple and
it is very evident that much effort and cost has been expended in recent years in cutting down trees etc well back from the line.
The Southern of course planted a certain species of pine tree on their linesides in many places throughout their system and these can still be seen to this day, the benefits were no leaves and a tendency to restrict  surrounding vegetation growth.

The cuts in recent years at Hanborough do appear to have led to a real improvement in leaf-fall season - I remember many times Turbos slip-sliding-away when leaving the station previously.

Interested by eightf48544's original observation about South Wales. It's a frequent complaint of those who cruise the Monmouthshire & Brecon Canal too, on the eastern edge of the Valleys: tree growth in recent years has been such as to obscure the famously lovely views over the Usk valley.

Was Paul Simon driving?

Everyone loves the sound of a train in the distance !.

I was thinking of Harold "Larky" Blackmore, actually, whose big-railway career ended on the Taunton District.  After retirement, he spent a good many years "part-time" getting the West Somerset Railway into some kind of fettle, after all the years of neglect.  Anything he didn't know about PW was, frankly, not worth knowing.

The Gwili Railway near Carmarthen seems to heavily tree laden - with the added risk of lineside fires.  Some of the most intensive tree growth I have seen next to a railway line.

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/gwilitree.jpg)

From Wales Online (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/three-people-injured-after-train-13567800)

Hot off the press

From Get Surrey website http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/south-west-trains-disruption-train-13143128 (http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/south-west-trains-disruption-train-13143128)

High winds played havoc with Surrey's rail services on Tuesday morning (June 6) as one train was forced to stop just outside Guildford when it was hit by a tree.