Great Western Coffee Shop

What are the rules for holding connections?   I'm aware that Swindon has some per-train instructions to help minimise passenger's disruptions, and evidence below suggest this is the case at Castle Cary too, but what about Westbury?


Pictured is the TransWilts service from Swindon (to the right), due at 18:18 and making an official connection into the 18:23 departure for Plymouth. TransWilts is all about connections, and indeed there were several groups making the connection amongst the 28 passengers, including a group connecting onwards at Plymoouth into Cornwall.

Slight problem ... the Plymouth train is under power and just pulling out, and the TransWilts service is a second or two short of coming to rest.  The time on this picture is within a couple of seconds of 18:23.

Question - with the connecting train plainly visible at the platform end, should the Plymouth train really have left, or should it have been held to allow the group (ready at the door of the 153) to dash across into the final conductor's door open on "The Plymouth"? It should be noted that flows to Taunton and beyond are the second most important connection off TransWilts services at Westbury, and that the following express to Plymouth didn't leave until 2 hours later.

Looking at Real Time Trains, the Plymouth train arrived in Castle Cary at 18:39 but rather than leaving at the due time of 18:42, it was held up by what appears to be it making a connection from the train from Weymouth, which was due there are 18:36 but pulled in at 18:41.

In spite of the hold at Castle Cary, the Plymouth train arrived into Exeter on time.   2 minutes more at Westbury and 2 minutes less at Castle Cary would have made no difference what so ever ... except to the poor people trig to connect, and hitting a 2 hour gap!

Connections are not always held at Castle Cary - even when both trains involved are running to time!

I remember a trip on the Weymouth Wizard two Summers ago (a trip which Graham and his team were on board). The returning Wizard was (and still is) due to connect at Castle Cary with a Paddington to Plymouth service, with both services in the station at the same time. Indeed, you have the oddity of an HST on the very short Platform 3 waiting for clearance onto the main line after the Plymouth has pulled into platform 2.

However, on this occasion, for some unknown reason the signaller routed the Wizard into platform 2 and so it was held outside Cary until the Plymouth had left - leaving myself and a dozen or so other passengers 'stranded' at Cary for a little over two hours for the next stopping westbound service. The Wizard was then held at Cary whilst the TM spoke with platform staff when it was agreed that we could either stay on the Wizard to Bristol with authorised onward travel from there or have a taxi to Taunton.   

I would say that the Plymouth train should probably have waited for up to say 5 minutes, and should certainly have waited for 2 minutes in order to allow intending passengers to make the advertised connection.

There should in my view be a written policy as to for how long an express should be held for a late running local service.
Factors to consider in drawing up such a list could include-
Is delaying the express by a few minutes likely to result in missed connections FROM the express onto other local services further along the route.
Is delaying the express likely to delay following trains on the same line ?
How many passengers are likely to be delayed and for how long, if the connection is not held ?

That is too many factors to consider in the heat of the moment, but a pre prepared list could be consulted, this list could reasonably give a brief explanation as to why the fast train should be or should not be held.

It might for example read

18-10-------------hold for up to 6 minutes, popular connecting service with a 2 hour wait otherwise.
18-45-------------do not hold, or it may miss subsequent connections.
19-10-------------hold for maximum of 2 minutes, otherwise the following service will be delayed (make an exception if the following service is running late)
19-45-------------do not hold, or it will be late clearing a junction and other trains thereby delayed.
20-10-------------hold for as long as 20 minutes as it is the last connecting service of the day.

On the face of it an example of poor performance by the rail staff member responsible at Westbury stn at the time.
To allow a train to leave just as a train that was a schedule connecting service was arriving is unforgivable, without a VERY good reason.

Did you, or the passengers involved, seek out the Railman responsible / in charge to ask the reason including did they seek authority from Control to hold the Plymouth train.

First Rail's main reason like any PLC is to make money for its shareholders, though 
the Top Brass rarely mention this objective.

This is another example of how they loose customers through poor attention to detail at the sharp end of their business.
There is a noticeable vast difference, in attention to passengers and good station work, between the best and worst performing station staff, yet rarely is an identifiable experienced senior Manager watching the station workings, it seems from my regular journeys in the South West.
Westbury stn is even more isolated since the gWr Area Operations Manager post was withdrawn.

I doubt there will be any follow up with the Railman concerned unless he was specifically told to let the booked connection be broken.

I agree - but then I'm biased. I felt it was a poor decision to have the two trains both alongside the platform (though moving) at the same time and not provide the advertised connection!


I have seen a list exactly like this at Swindon ... though I've not copy of its detail.  Would seem to be a good idea to have one for Westbury.

Anyone "in the know" ... please let me know if such a Westbury list exists, and where the 18:23 can be held for even a minute.



I'm aware that the passenger were in conversation with the various staff, but did not involve myself in the operational issue; as an ordinary passenger, that would be sticking my nose in.  And day to day operation issues are supposed to be outside the CRP role, though of course I help people where there's no staff about where that can be useful. Rather, for Westbury, I am asking about the systemic situation so that we can make it a better service and attract more passengers in the future.


I agree / unlikely follow up.  The chap was probably doing exactly what he had been told should be done.  I just suspect that what was told wasn't right for the circumstance presented.

The two examples given above are classic cases of running the railway for the convenience of the companies that run it and not for the unfortunate passengers who put faith in an advertised connection.

If the arriving service is running more than a couple minutes late then yes the connecting service must continue on its way as holding it could cause those on board to miss connections further down the line.

In the case of the missed connection at Castle Cary, I hope taxis to Taunton were provided as to go via Bristol would have meant a considerable delay in those arriving at their destinations in the SW.

Taxis were indeed provided, although a couple opted to stay on board. I was extremely impressed by the reaction of the single member of staff on duty at Cary on that evening (and also the TM on the Wizard for that matter!).

Did the station staff or the crew of the Plymouth train know that the connecting passengers were waiting at the door? Should this even make a difference? Not all passengers can dash across the platform (and some can but just won't) particularly if they have heavy luggage and some might find it difficult to stand by the door of a moving train. Would the situation be different if for instance one of the connecting passengers was in a wheelchair or if it was a family with small children or babies in a push chair or pram?

 Is their actually a standard policy with regard to holding trains ?
 
 I remember at Newton Abbot the Paignton branch was sometimes held for a late
 running Cross-Country.

 Another point, slightly off subject, GWR seem as bad as SWT when it comes to manning stations at week-ends (re;-Totnes).
 If their is no platform staff, are the conductors aware of connections ?

I don't know what the various staff knew ... I have travelled on TransWilts trains with connections that are too close to call  in the past, and on HSTs into Westbury too where the connection is very "iffy" towards Swindon.  Conductor / guard has typically called ahead in these circumstances / contacted control and likelyhood is that was done this time.  Having said that, the delay was caused by a disruptive passenger on the service, so the conductor had been rather tied up.  Arrival board had confirmed the 18:22 or 18:23 arrival time for about 10 minutes though, so there's no question of the incoming connection having an indefinite arrival time.

I get your point about fit, healthy, aware, and lightly laden people crossing quickly but others not doing so - and understand that the risk of being held while the slowest of the slow crossed might discourage a brief wait.   In the particular case, the customers (word used intentionally) in question were at the door and ready for a brief canter across. Clearly well planned by our local crew - they're rather good.  ;)

Most branch trains have an official hold time for high speed connections, but not the other way round.  High speed takes priority and must depart on time.  Although in exceptional circumstances, such as a cancellation, high speed can be held.

[/quote]
Would the situation be different if for instance one of the connecting passengers was in a wheelchair ... ?
[/quote]

I can confirm that GWR did hold a train on Sunday to allow my husband in a wheelchair to board.  On the 6th, a person was hit by a train in the Exeter St Thomas area and services up to Taunton were subject to long delays.  Quoting from Realtime trains, our Cross Country train (service to Aberdeen) arrived into Bristol Parkway at 12.15.  The GWR Paddington to Swansea service, which we were changing to, arrived, slightly late, at 12.16.  It should have stopped for two minutes but the platform staff, who were all the time in mobile communication with ?, whizzed us over, and the train departed at 12.20.  The wait, otherwise, would have been one hour.  We had also booked Passenger Assistance through the normal channels.

Once on the train, the manager announced that the service had been delayed at Reading or thereabouts AND by a passenger transferring platforms to this train so our card was well and truly marked.  Then, further announcement that we should make ourselves known to the TM (so that we could be helped at Swansea).  We were lucky and couldn't have got a better service.

There was further slow running into Wales but the train still arrived at Swansea only one minute late.

Thanks, Eliza

It's difficult to know what would have happened in a specific hypothetical situation, but if there were a wheelchair on board the incoming TransWilts for the connection which was going to be very tight, I would have expected the train manager to have let control know and on balance of probability the ramp would have been ready and the connection made.

I can't quantify, but from observation I get the feeling that the vast majority of the GWR team are very good with passengers in wheelchairs - going out of their way to help.  A tiny minority can lead to occasional problems and hit the press out of all proportion - bad news 'sells'.   A lot of the wheelchair problems in our area remain with the Victorian infrastructure - just how I see it, not a user of a wheelchair but knowing some.   We do NOT (TransWilts viewpoint comment) have the problems reported on Southern, for example, where assistance is not available.

This is what I understand too - whether either of the trains Graham mentioned originally are seen as 'branch' trains I doubt.

Also, Passengers aren't exactly helping the TOCs - on one hand, they (understandably) want trains held for connections, but on the other, there are many threads on here about late trains/compensation/ etc etc....I don't think there's a fair, middle way here. Either we put up with trains running late for connections being made, or we are adamant that they run to time & that we don't actually need them measured to the minute for right time, and accept that within 5mins/10mins late is acceptable.

To exclude trains delayed for a connection is just another 'excuse' otherwise.

Very much agree with you, ChrisB.

The "proper" solution is for our railway system to be reliable and robust so that these tradeoffs are reduced - hopefully to the extent that they become very rare indeed and insignificant. 

BUT we live in a real world and even though we might want a system that has perfect timekeeping, thus no problems, there are certain things which make that difficult.    In the case in question, the TransWilts train was delayed by "a disruptive passenger early in the journey", and unless you make all station stops long enough to unload and load the most time-consuming of wheelchairs and passenger crowds that might occur, you're never going to get exact running 100% of the time.

There is slack in the system ... remember in the example that the train left Westbury spot on time, sat longer than it was supposed to at Castle Cary to left there 4 late, but was on time into Exeter.  I can't be totally sure, but indications are that the CLC hold was because an upcoming train from Weymouth than connecting in was late, rather than anything to do with crowds of wheelchairs on and off the Plymouth train, and so it could have arrived there a minute later than it did to maintain the Westbury connection, and still left at the same time.

Oh yes, 'slack in the system'....wasn't that manifesto recently published elsewhere here wanting removal of all slack & timetables matched to actual running times. hmmm, can't have it both ways (again!)

Yep ... and my answer to his proposal on that was somewhere between "no" and "hell, no" as I recall!