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Two Facebook posts - a bus and a train one - on Cornwall, part of a series designed to provoke thoughtful conversation and help engage individuals and groups across the South West in looking forward from a customer viewpoint.  Facebook members - your help in sharing these to appropriate places would be appreciated.   Comments welcome here too, of course.  Some members may not agree with everything written ...

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Cornish Main Line. Pictured on the 06:00 Penzance to Cardiff in early July 2017, between Saltash and Devonport.  Passenger numbers on trains across the South West have rocketed over the past 10 years, with the UK's railways now carrying as many passengers as they did at their peak, although there's now only half the route mileage left open.  The rate of growth has been far higher than was planned for, resulting in overcrowded trains like this one, as new capacity is for the most part still a promise / in the pipeline rather than being with us yet in the South West.  In the last year or so, growth has slowed down - but that's probably not due to a lack of demand.  Rather that you can't get more people on the train!

The Cornish main line - Penzance to Plymouth - currently has an irregular service, with gaps between trains of up to 80 minutes.  Plans are that in the not too distant future, there will be a regular 30 minute "clockface" service - so that the gaps will be filled - and that trains will be longer.   This 06:00 off Penzance is currently scheduled to be the first service on the line replaces by a "pocket rocket" - a 4 carriage train that uses the the locomotives and some carriages from a pensioned off High Speed Train, fitted with automatic doors (to reduce the time spent at stations making sure it's ready to restart) and disabled toilets (for, obviously, disabled people - and also to ensure it's still legal to use beyond 2020).

We look forward to the increase in capacity - passengers cannot travel on promises, and we've had promised / scheduled dates for extra capacity broken far too many times to totally believe what we're told now.   The proof will come when extra capacity is actually delivered on a daily basis, with minimal cancellations and reductions of train length due to "shortage of drivers", "shortage of train managers" or "more than usual trains requiring repair at the same time"

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Prestige bus fleets. The Tinner bus fleet - running services T1 and T2 from Truro to Penzance - is an example of a fleet branded and promoted to a route. These 20 ADL Enviro 400MMC buses were all new in 2016 and are being used in promoting this route; although operated by First Kernow, they boast their own branding rather that the new green of First Kernow, or a standard First livery.

Where a route justifies frequent, quality buses, such branding is not uncommon. Other examples in our area are Oxford to Swindon, and Bristol to Wells. Reports suggest that on the right route, such a marketing and sales operation can be an excellent investment for the operator, with traffic growing well (and beyond the growth of seating) as a service that can be used on a "turn up and go" basis reaches people that less frequent, and less distinct, buses don't.

There is a concern with a "prestige route" that traffic may be sucked like from a sponge from adjoining routes, to their detriment - that the route will become an entity in its own right rather than part of a network. Current comment in Swindon and Royal Wootton Bassett about the services between those two points are showing that a fast, frequent service may be great, but West Swindon to Royal Wootton Bassett has has a lessening of service due to a concentration on the main flow to the exclusion of other, but significant, opportunities.

The Tinner bus in Cornwall is a case in point of this lack of integration. The author of this post was due to catch a train from Hayle to Penzance on a Sunday in July ... train cancelled (First group train), and advise was to wait for next one two hours later ("no alternative available" say the chap on the help point). But this bus ran just a few hundred yards away. Guess what - First group company too, but not integrated or branded into the network.

During times of severe disruption to rail services in Cornwall rail tickets are sometimes valid for travel on local bus routes.

But why only during times of severe disruption?   Wouldn't it encourage more people to use public transport if they could go out on the train and back on the bus or vice versa?

Because there's no way of sharing the fare box(es)

Two possible scenarios:

a) Shrug your shoulders and don't bother about the extra business that would be available

b) Do something about it.  With the same parent company, how about "whoever takes the money keeps it"?   Come to think of it, that would be a rough and ready way with different parent companies and might not be far out!

Cheap way of travelling by train - buy a bus ticket. No, I don't think that'll catch on somehow.

Cornwall Council are working up the "One Public Transport Network for Cornwall" concept, anchored around the greatly improved Plymouth - Penzance rail service.  The vision is one network, one timetable, one ticket so they are aiming for interavailability.   

Yes - and I love that vision.  Seems to make sense!


In some places "cheap way of travelling by bus - buy a train ticket" though.   It's not uniform!

Yes indeed. Train fares are cheaper between Redruth and Camborne than the buses. The service is also quicker than the bus! ;D

Opposite way round in Cornwall. The train is considerably cheaper than the bus. A railcard holder can travel from Penzance to Plymouth for cheaper than a bus from Penzance to Camborne. Or Liskeard to Plymouth.

Take a regular journey I make to Plymouth by bus is £7.50, or by train £5.95 (3.95 railcard)
I often use the bus as despite being £3.55 more expensive it's a regular and reliable service. It's also clockface. The bus is always busy all the way into Plymouth. We've been upgraded recently to longer buses- double deckers can't operate the route 11 due to a low bridge.

It's going to very interesting to see what choices people make when the train goes clockface and (I would hope) reliable. Of course, reliability may be more difficult to achieve where there's trains running as far as London and Scotland into Cornwall.

Even in commuter land that can still be the case.  Oxford to Radley return on the train is peak £4.50, or off-peak £3.80, but it's £4.80 on the bus.  Mind you a single on the train is £3.60, but only £3.20 on the bus!

Another "Cornwall post" [here] (https://www.facebook.com/travelwatchsouthwest/photos/a.582545811956698.1073741828.582518478626098/659507254260553).  I'm somewhat nervous about posting too many thoughts about Cornwall's transport knowing what expertise we have here, but it's part of the overall TWSW role to know / inform / promote / help groups all across the South West - and "seeding" discussions in places like this forum seems to be a good way of encouraging people to talk, discuss, learn.

I know a little more about Cornwall now than I did before my July holiday down there.  Having said which, that's only a little more and there is a lot more good practise to learn from!

The first pic is perhaps disproportionate. It is the Devonport High school for Boys 'school bus' from most stations between Liskeard and Devonport. It is normally rammed with school boys. DHS has a great reputation and attracts kids from as far away as liskeard.
The 0600 from Penzance calls at Devonport so is the train of choice.
The 1557 from Plymouth is the same coming back after school.
Two services I know to avoid! I've used the 1557 a few times and hundreds of kids board at Devonport. Gwr regularly use bus dupes for the 1557 from Plymouth calling at liskeard and Bodmin parkway only, to keep the train free for Devonport pick ups.

Let's say that when I got on that train at 06:12 at Hayle, I hadn't realised just how busy it was going to get.   Mind you, from Hayle there was a long gap and little choice if I was to make my Taunton meeting. It's also just about the only choice, as I recall, from Menheniot where we picked up a substantial load too.   Good train to select to go up to 4 cars when it can.   Almost as packed as the 17:53 Chippenham to Melksham  :D

Huge flood off, as you suggest, at Devonport.     Traffic on and off at the other stations between Saltash and Plymouth was light, but then their main service is the Gunnislake train.

Not just the Devonport High School for Boys, lots travel to the Girls' one in Devonport too and the Plymouth High School for Girls which is about ten minutes' walk from Plymouth station.  Both of these trains were strengthened a couple of years' ago now and are usually three coaches.  The Pocket Rocket can't come soon enough!

DHS for Boys is indeed an excellent school with a deservedly great reputation and has produced many distinguished pupils who have gone on to excel all over the world...............and Taplow, like this particular DHS Old Boy!  :)

Having used that service several times by accident, 100s of boys but only ever 2-3 girls. There are coaches put on by the girls school operated by Target Travel

Fair dos, Richard, I hadn't noticed.  Certainly lots of girls use the respective Tamar Valley Line trains but, then, of course, nowhere near so straightforward to put on buses instead.  Perhaps for the Plymouth High School for Girls, 15 57 is just a little too early and there is the just over hour gap to the next train to stations to Liskeard.  Will be interesting to see what happens when the much better main line service begins.

One of the reasons why a Ride Cornwall ticket is a good idea (it's about £13) and you can visit rail and non-rail connected places.
'The Ride Cornwall Ranger offers the holder one day's unlimited travel on all rail and most bus services within Cornwall and between Cornwall and Plymouth'.

There is a bus dupe of the 1557 Plymouth to Penzance today and tomorrow being operated by Tamar Coaches with H13 TCL

I like the abbreviation of dupe for duplicate. How many of us have been duped by a bus, all glossy and new on the outside and leaving a lot be desired on the inside ? ???

On First Kernow Facebook just now

First Kernow
46 mins ·
Ride Cornwall.
Despite having agreed a new set of prices and conditions for Ride Cornwall with partner bus operators and GWR a considerable time ago, rail operators are still not able to implement these changes.

As a result, we have had to take the unwelcome decision to suspend our participation in Ride Cornwall until such time as the rail operators can implement these long planned changes.

We are therefore unable to sell or accept any Ride Cornwall tickets from 26th May 2019 until further notice.

We are hopeful that the implementation of the changes can be made by the rail operators as soon as possible, at which point we will be able to sell and accept Ride Cornwall tickets once again.

This is quite important.
Mods: Would it be better as a separate thread under an appropriate title?

Any insiders able to comment.....RichardB?

Suspect a change in fare split amongst the operators, not yet implemented across the TOCs?

Reality is it’s too cheap! £13 for unlimited rail, First bus and Plymouth city bus services.
Compared to individual fares;

Train Plymouth to Penzance return is I believe £11.10

First Bus Truro to St Ives is £9 return, Padstow to Newquay again £9 return, Truro to Newquay £7.50 return.

Plymouth city bus Liskeard to waderbridge return is between £9 and £10.... strangely PCB all zone day rider is only £8 (their zones haven’t been updated since they started cornwall services and they now have some anomalies in their fares, Bude, Padstow, wadebridge)

£13 split between GWR, XC, First Kernow And Plymouth citybus doesn’t leave a lot each to allow unlimited travel. All parties have agreed the new price but the railway have failed to implement it on their systems

And Now............drum roll............

On First Kernow Facebook
First Kernow
24 May at 17:07 ·
Ride Cornwall
Unlimited travel all day on most buses, and after 09:00* on Cornwall’s trains

Buy from:
...train station ticket offices
...train managers/conductors
...bus drivers

The Ride Cornwall pass costs:
£18 for adults
£9 for children
£36 for a family of up to 2 adults and 3 children

*You can travel before 09:00 on the following services:
08:14 Plymouth - Penzance
08:40 Plymouth - Gunnislake

Please note that railcard and other discounts are not available against Ride Cornwall passes

2121
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Am I reading that the pass is re-instated at the last minute, at a significantly higher price, or am I comparing a camel with a grapefruit?

Noting it reads as if no online sales, no sales from TVMs, no phone in to buy  ... person to person purchase only?

£13 to £18. It’s only seen 1 small price rise in 10 years I think, and consensus is it was under priced.
It’s always been person to person purchase only.
All partners were pushing for price rise, DfT/RDG apparently approved the price rise late this week, presumably a withdrawal threat worked. The price rise has apparently been waiting for approval for considerable time.
I understand GWR are introducing a Cornwall rail only rover at £12.50 (possibly today, a ticket office staff contact said they had a email on Friday concerning it)

Correct - and it was available at start of play this morning (Sunday, 26th)

The lack of Railcard Discounts on Rail Cornwall is bad. The fare rising from £10.75 to £18 is offensive.

To summarise - had all this confirmed.

Rail Cornwall - valid on trains and buses - £18 with no railcard discount (as buses cannot offer the discount when selling the ticket)

Cornwall Day Ranger - valid on trains only - £12.50 but rail discounts available

The latter has been rather rushed out.  It can be bought from staff and ticket offices.   It will be available on the website shortly with all the T&Cs.

 It's still called a Ride Cornwall (Bus & Rail) as opposed to Rail Cornwall and simply Cornwall Ranger for the rail only fare.

Interesting - that is different to the brief I have seen - but certainly for the first one would make sense.

Ride Cornwall still Ride Cornwall. Now £18 adult, £9 child.
Changes in conditions are:
No railcard discounts
Valid anytime on First Kernow buses but still after 9am Mon-Fri on trains / Plymouth citybus

Cornwall ranger: trains only,   after 9am Mon-Fri, anytime Sat & Sun
All railcard discounts apply but due to many glitches not available yet....

The Ride Cornwall product (rail & bus) was just £10 three years ago. Now £18. A whopping 80% increase. Over 100% more if you hold a Railcard. The Railcard price was £8.30 in 2016.

I don't buy the argument that Railcard discounts can't be offered because there is a bus element. Previously the Railcard discount was 17%, instead of the usual 34% precisely because the product was also valid on buses.

Whoever is responsible for the new pricing (remembering that the majority of rail and bus services in Cornwall are provided by First Group) it's still an eye-watering increase.

I'd love to hear an explanation from GWR (who price the product) for what comes across as profiteering from a popular unregulated product. Imagine the outcry if a point to point fare increased by 80% over three years. Inflation over that period is 5.2%.

Worth pointing out again, that Cornwall County Council have lifted the 0930 restriction on bus passes, so they are now available all day, every day to locals and tourists alike.

(But NOT on Truro Park and Ride services anymore)

But you have to remember that while it was £10 just three years ago, it was £10 over thirteen years ago, so not so bad...

Yes, it was. For many years an excellent value product. What annoys me though is the operator raising the price so steeply over a short period. First from £10 to £13, then £13 to £18. Such steep rises aren't justifiable just because the product has arguably been under-priced in the past. Such products should, I believe, also be regulated in the same way other fares are.

The Ride Cornwall time restriction has also been removed from the bus element.

Looking back through Wayback Machine, there were no time restrictions on buses early this decade. Searched back to 2011.

The restriction was applicable until this price increase. On First Ticketer machines it was greyed out and couldn’t be sold before 9.

I suspect if they were regulated they wouldn't exist in the first place. And I don't see how you can regulate a fare that relies on the co-operation of other transport operators.  They would just pull out if they don't like the income they are getting.

The argument about not having a steep rise if the fare has been under-priced for years seems to be the same one used for keeping fares on the Severn Beach line low.  If the fare is really too low I don't see why it shouldn't be increased to a reasonable amount.  Otherwise you might have the situation where an operator wants to start with a low fare to encourage business, (which must be a reasonable thing to do, and no different to any business looking to get new customers), but can't do that because it will then be criticised (or prevented)when it wants to put the fare up to the right long term level.

A restriction on selling them? What if one is presented before 0900 after being purchased from a station, TVM, or online?

Many fares across the country are lower in one area on a pence per mile basis than fares in other area. Should the Anytime Return fare from Evesham to London (£83.00) be raised to the same level as the Anytime Return from Chippenham to London (£178)? Roughly the same distance. Which one is at the right long term level?

Encourage new business with a low fare at the start by all means. But we're not talking about a recently introduced product. The Ride Cornwall has been around for well over a decade. Only since January 2017 has the priced climbed from £10. First to £13, and now to £18. The latest increase most egregious as it no longer allows a discount to Railcard holders.

These price increase could well turn people away from the product. There's a real danger the fare take for Ride Cornwall could actually drop. Leisure visitors to Cornwall may think twice about paying for the product. A family of four will now be paying £54 for a days rail and bus travel. Prior to January 2017 they would have paid £26. If they've brought their car across the Tamar they may very well stick to using it.

And yes, you can regulate fares that are available for use across different modes of public transport. And with Ride Cornwall we're largely talking about First Rail and First Bus.

I remain very cynical about this price rise. I may well ask GWRs Fares Implementation Manager directly for an explanation of the price rise.

When purchased on a bus, no discount cards were valid.
Regardless of what card you held, it was full price or nothing.
Quite a few walked off in a huff or just purchased a single to the nearest railway station and purchased said ticket with their discount card.
"Sorry guv; my system won't allow discounts" That was on the Almex and it's successor, the Ticketer

Not valid as per the T&Cs, which have now been amended

You are correct. I didn't consult enough sources. Just like a customer probably wouldn't.

That information needs to be on the National Rail Enquiries website. There it says "Family N/A" under 'Pricing' on the Ride Cornwall information page.

Said information is also missing from GWR's Rangers & Rovers page - which is still showing the old prices.

And if you make a booking on GWR's online ticketing system's Rover page and input 2 adults and 2 children the total price comes out at £54.

Really is unacceptable that the official sources of information and retailing have incorrect information. Over at BRFares, an unnoficial source, the information correct. The Devon & Cornwall Rail Partnership also have the correct information. If operators can communicate the changes to stakeholders and input the data into licensed systems for third parties then they should be able to update their own website.

Instead they put their front line staff and customer services operatives in the firing line when customers go to make a purchase and find the information they have sought from official sources is incorrect.

Oh, I know!! 😉

I don’t know what the sales of Ride Cornwall were like before or after price rise, but the only Ride Cornwall tickets I’ve ever seen was a member of this forum who makes contact to find out my duty and pop and say Hi when he’s about on such a ticket. Maybe 3-4 times I’ve seen him present me with a Ride Cornwall. He plans visiting me into his day so distorts my Ride Cornwall ticket holder figures I take!

I've no issue with rising fares, as long as they are reasonable, the cost of Ride Cornwall should have been repointed over a number of years, with annual increases of no more than 10pct. The withdrawal of the Railcard discount on the other hand should have been retained. The issue of bus drivers being unable to issue it is smoke and mirrors.

It's a fair point to say that annual rises are reasonable but 10% seems excessive to me; not many people using these tickets see a 10% annual rise in their income. I'll be using it this summer and my income hasn't risen by 10% for a very long time!!

More Cornish Fare confuddlement this time involving The Bodmin and Wenford Railway.

Arrive at Bodmin Parkway or Bodmin General via your own means, buy a day pass on the B&WR - £13.50.

Go to any station on the National Network, excluding Bodmin Parkway, west of and including Plymouth, or buy on board, get a through ticket to the B&WR including National Rail travel - £13.00.

Can't you go into the ticket office at Bodmin Parkway and buy a Menheniot to B&WR day pass at £13.00 and simply not use the National Rail part?

Isn’t the £13.00 fare just one round trip rather than a day ticket, thus comparing apples and pears?

Unclear to me.   Sounds like the through ticket fare has failed to rise in line with line-only fares when they were intended to be the same:

From ... https://bodminrailway.co.uk/plan-your-visit/timetables-and-fares/


Wording could do with clarification if it's one round trip or freedom of line, FGW changed to GWR.  Noting as worded it comes across as not being available from stations without ticket facilities.  Brfares does include the ticket (use code L100), and it says ...


Fare not being offered in opposite direction - so no £13 day trip for people who are staying in Bodmin and want to use the railway for a day trip to, say Looe.   But I don't see the "outward ticket must be used before inward ticket" wording.

Above response is online research - I really should leave it for someone 'on the ground' to confirm status on this fare.