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Title: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: johoare on September 24, 2017, 12:08:17 I agree NickB.. So far I've noticed that the 7.17am and 7.59am morning HSTs have been replaced (the 7.17am by a 5 car (I think) turbo) and the 5.36pm evening HST the same as the 7.17am. I don't think there are any others at the moment but that's probably half of the HST capacity gone. Added to that a lot of the EMUs have LOTS of padding in their running times currently so journey time has increased too
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: ChrisB on September 26, 2017, 09:40:01 Isn't it covered by Section 7 of the Franchise Agreement? I think a lot of the blame lays with the client, DfT, for not enforcing it..... ::) https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/first-great-western How can they when they have caused this stock problem by allowing the HSTs to be signed up by Scotrail with no leeway for delays in electrification (that they cancelled!) I suspect GWR aren't happy either frankly Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: stuving on September 26, 2017, 12:57:00 Isn't it covered by Section 7 of the Franchise Agreement? I think a lot of the blame lays with the client, DfT, for not enforcing it..... ::) https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/first-great-western How can they when they have caused this stock problem by allowing the HSTs to be signed up by Scotrail with no leeway for delays in electrification (that they cancelled!) I suspect GWR aren't happy either frankly I don't follow. Are you suggesting that: 1. If GWR agreed to hand back HSTs before their replacements were certain, or very likely, to be available, they are not at fault but DfT are for not intervening to stop them? And 2. In part of the network, electrification has been cancelled (or deferred, or whatever) by DfT and this has resulted in a delay in the replacement stock for HSTs being operable? Where? Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: grahame on September 26, 2017, 13:06:23 I suspect GWR aren't happy either frankly I don't follow. Are you suggesting that: 1. If GWR agreed to hand back HSTs before their replacements were certain, or very likely, to be available, they are not at fault but DfT are for not intervening to stop them? And 2. In part of the network, electrification has been cancelled (or deferred, or whatever) by DfT and this has resulted in a delay in the replacement stock for HSTs being operable? Where? I don't think GWR are happy either, having spoken with the director who's oles include ensuring they have stock to run the services. Projects slip, and is I understand it some slippage time was built in between planned withdrawal of HSTs from the GWR patch and their re-introduction up in Scotland. However, the slippage has exceeded what was allowed for in the plans. How much of the allowance for slippage was requested by GWR / how much they were allowed to have, what they were told about realistic schedules in good time that turned out to be not realistic, I don't know. And without that knowledge it's difficult to point the finger too much in any one direction. Which is, of course, very convenient for all the people who might have the finger pointed at them, isn't it? On new stock availability (IEPs), how much extra time's being taken by the switching around of production, etc, to deliver bi-modes for all GWR units rather than electric versions for services like London to Bristol, London to Oxford, London to Cardiff and London to Swansea? Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: stuving on September 26, 2017, 13:27:25 I don't think GWR are happy either, having spoken with the director who's oles include ensuring they have stock to run the services. Projects slip, and is I understand it some slippage time was built in between planned withdrawal of HSTs from the GWR patch and their re-introduction up in Scotland. However, the slippage has exceeded what was allowed for in the plans. How much of the allowance for slippage was requested by GWR / how much they were allowed to have, what they were told about realistic schedules in good time that turned out to be not realistic, I don't know. And without that knowledge it's difficult to point the finger too much in any one direction. Which is, of course, very convenient for all the people who might have the finger pointed at them, isn't it? On new stock availability (IEPs), how much extra time's being taken by the switching around of production, etc, to deliver bi-modes for all GWR units rather than electric versions for services like London to Bristol, London to Oxford, London to Cardiff and London to Swansea? The franchise contract predates NR owning up to the electrification delays, and the Hendy rescheduling, but even then it notes that the earliest end-of-lease date for HSTs was this month (09/17): Quote HST lease expiry date is not necessarily representative of the fleet withdrawal date; this is linked to the IEP stock delivery and will be formalised during the lease period shown to manage the transition from HSTs to IEP. In the case of Angel Trains Limited HSTs the lease expiry dates range from between 09/17 and 04/19. In the case of Porterbrook HSTs the lease expiry is 09/17 but subject to the IEP stock delivery will be extended in accordance with the terms of the lease. It is also subject to the outcome of the West of England Rolling Stock Procurement Option. ... Where the Secretary of State exercises his rights under the West of England Rolling Stock Procurement Option, the HST lease expiry dates shall be altered so that all the HSTs leave the Train Fleet by January 2019, with the FRH leased HSTs being the last to be returned. In this case the HSTs will not be subject to a PRM related modification programme. That "West of England Rolling Stock Procurement Option" is what did happen with the order for 802s, but whatever adjustment was made for that, and for the new "Hendified" dates, we don't know. The IEP delivery schedule says that 26 800s should be available now, so if they are not then that would call for extension of the leases under this contract. However, these words don't mention lack of electricity as equivalent to delay of trains, and of course we don't know if the contract was also modified to account for the HSTs going to Scotrail. But it does look as if the first withdrawals have happened earlier than this original contract said they should. Does anyone know if the Scotrail deal was done before or after Hendy (or rather NR's admission of its foul-up)? Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: ChrisB on September 26, 2017, 15:04:10 Hasn't this happened?
Quote Where the Secretary of State exercises his rights under the West of England Rolling Stock Procurement Option, the HST lease expiry dates shall be altered so that all the HSTs leave the Train Fleet by January 2019, with the FRH leased HSTs being the last to be returned. In this case the HSTs will not be subject to a PRM related modification programme. So, " all the HSTs leave the Train Fleet by January 2019" - BY January 2019. Doesn't state when the start date is.... Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: paul7575 on September 26, 2017, 15:48:20 Hasn't this happened? At the time of publishing that 2015 GW direct award brief that many of us have seen and/or downloaded, the first HSTs were only to be returned in Sept 2017, and the last in Jan 2019. We are still in September and the first HST has apparently recently gone off lease. Apparently the last HST service is now supposed to be in Feb 2019 rather than JanuaryQuote Where the Secretary of State exercises his rights under the West of England Rolling Stock Procurement Option, the HST lease expiry dates shall be altered so that all the HSTs leave the Train Fleet by January 2019, with the FRH leased HSTs being the last to be returned. In this case the HSTs will not be subject to a PRM related modification programme. So, " all the HSTs leave the Train Fleet by January 2019" - BY January 2019. Doesn't state when the start date is.... So are there really significant delays, or not? Can any current delays be overcome, and is there therefore a risk of exaggerating the difficulties? Paul Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: stuving on September 26, 2017, 15:52:54 Hasn't this happened? Quote Where the Secretary of State exercises his rights under the West of England Rolling Stock Procurement Option, the HST lease expiry dates shall be altered so that all the HSTs leave the Train Fleet by January 2019, with the FRH leased HSTs being the last to be returned. In this case the HSTs will not be subject to a PRM related modification programme. So, " all the HSTs leave the Train Fleet by January 2019" - BY January 2019. Doesn't state when the start date is.... Yes, but that end date only replaces what was in the bit I snipped out: Quote Where the Secretary of State does not exercise his rights under the West of England Rolling Stock Procurement Option, the Franchisee shall retain in the Train Fleet to the end of the Franchise Term the HSTs leased from First Rail Holdings Limited and 16 HST sets (which comprise 30 power cars) leased from Angel Trains Limited, with the balance of the HSTs being returned to their owner. The HST vehicles being retained for the Franchise Term will be subject to a PRM related modification programme and as such the seat numbers may be affected; the numbers shown are stated pre-PRM modification. So the phasing of the earlier replacement of most HSTs by the main IEP fleet should still be covered by what it says about extension "in accordance with the lease" (whatever that implies). Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: ChrisB on September 26, 2017, 15:57:02 There may need to be work done pre-going off lease? Which is what is happening now? To remove any GWR additions/alterations made to hand back in original state?
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: JayMac on September 26, 2017, 16:11:13 Aren't the physical alterations (more seats, micro buffets, composite carriages, new toilets, laminated windows, lighting etc) carried out with the agreement of the lessor?
I can't see FirstGroup being responsible for putting back IC70 seats and ripping out micro buffets... To remove all the additions/alterations made since privatisation won't happen. Why would the lessor want back rolling stock in original condition? That'd make it impossible for them to re-lease it. Besides, Angel and Porterbrook underwrote most of the conversion costs. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: stuving on September 26, 2017, 16:33:51 The franchise contract on the DfT's relevant web page is now an updated one. While the only date at the front is the original one of 22/3/2015, this is version 8.5 and the newest dated addition I can see is from June 2017. That's in the list of derogations; other changes within the text are not dated. The PDF was made on 21/9/2017.
The note about HST leases now says: Quote HST lease expiry date is not necessarily representative of the fleet withdrawal date; this is linked to the IEP stock delivery and will be formalised during the lease period shown to manage the transition from HSTs to IEP. In the case of Angel Trains Limited HSTs the lease expiry dates range from between 09/17 and 01/19. In the case of Porterbrook HSTs the lease expiry is 09/17 but subject to the IEP stock delivery will be extended in accordance with the terms of the lease. The HSTs will not be subject to a PRM related modification programme. The IEP delivery schedule hasn't changed, it still says 16 5-car 800s should be running now (not 26 - the figure I gave earlier was a mistake, 26 should be available by the December timetable change). Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: ChrisB on September 26, 2017, 16:37:55 The note about HST leases now says: Quote Angel Trains Limited HSTs the lease expiry dates range from between 09/17 and 01/19 There you go - start 09/17 Aren't the physical alterations (more seats, micro buffets, composite carriages, new toilets, laminated windows, lighting etc) carried out with the agreement of the lessor? Quite possibly need to put the seating back into original layout, and yes, the buffets may need to go - all depends on what was agreed with the lessor at the time. Certainly the vinyls/paint needs doing too Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: JayMac on September 26, 2017, 17:21:22 Are you suggesting there are several thousand IC70 seats in storage somewhere?
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: stuving on September 26, 2017, 17:34:24 The note about HST leases now says: Quote Angel Trains Limited HSTs the lease expiry dates range from between 09/17 and 01/19 There you go - start 09/17 Of course - and there are eight new 10-car trains to replace them. If there aren't, or they can't run for some reason DfT are responsible for (and DfT are responsible for Network Rail, aren't they?), and GWR are not, then: Quote HST lease expiry date is not necessarily representative of the fleet withdrawal date; this is linked to the IEP stock delivery and will be formalised during the lease period shown to manage the transition from HSTs to IEP. So if the 800s have genuinely not been available for GWR to run, and DfT have refused to intervene, then GWR do have reason to complain. But it's hard to see how the small "negative clearance" between the two schedules explains the number of HSTs that have gone AWOL. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: grahame on September 26, 2017, 18:16:32 But it's hard to see how the small "negative clearance" between the two schedules explains the number of HSTs that have gone AWOL. 58 HST sets plus 5 Adelantes in the spring - 63 long distance trains. One Adelante to Great Central, and one to Hull Trains. One HST to Scotland, one in special engineering in Doncaster, one derailed as it left Paddington and one had a rather spectacular exhaust fire a few days back. So that's 6 sets, or around 10%, less in the operational fleet - and nothing new into service until 16th October, when two diagrams worth come back. Another HST to Scotland very soon indeed, and perhaps the Paddington and Exeter casualties are back in service - but never the less, you can see why a combination of turbos released by electrification to Maidenhead and by trimming back 3 car services to 2 cars are deputising for HSTs in the Thames Valley. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: a-driver on September 27, 2017, 07:55:36 It was the power cars damaged in the derailment and the exhaust fire incidents. They can just be removed and replaced with a spare power car. The whole set isn’t out of traffic. In fact, the derailed power car was returned to service within a few days.
There is a shortage of power cars though and there have been issues with some of the externally overhauled components which isn’t helping plus one with fatality damage. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: paul7575 on September 27, 2017, 09:33:14 Quite possibly need to put the seating back into original layout, and yes, the buffets may need to go - all depends on what was agreed with the lessor at the time. Certainly the vinyls/paint needs doing too I once heard of an EMU subclass (313s maybe on LO for the early period before replacement) having some seats removed from a 2+3 layout temporarily to give more access space, and they were replaced when the units went off lease, but I just cannot believe that there will be a need to re-instate these HST carriages to their previous interior layout. The aim of the changes was to increase the overall seating capacity of the train, why would that ever need to be removed? I'm sure Scotrail have plans for completely revised interiors (at least as seen in their PR) but cannot see it being necessary to have a transitional stage back to prior layout. There's an analogy with the 442s. They are Mk 3 coaches that left SWT a few years ago in almost as built condition, and then were totally altered internally for use by Southern and GatEx. If there was a general requirement to revert them to the condition as delivered to the last user, why haven't they had to be 'de-converted' prior to their recent storage off lease? Paul Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: bobm on September 27, 2017, 09:37:37 I don't think GWR have to do too much to the HSTs before sending them north.
It was reported elsewhere on the forum that the first set did its final diagram to Paignton, headed to Laira and was then on its way to Scotland within a few days. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: grahame on September 27, 2017, 09:46:41 I'm sure Scotrail have plans for completely revised interiors (at least as seen in their PR) but cannot see it being necessary to have a transitional stage back to prior layout. "May we change the trains we're leasing from you" .... possible answers 1. No 2. Yes, but you need to put them back as you got them from us when you return them 3. Yes, and we like the changes - they make the trains more modern / valuable to us in the future 4. Yes, and we reserve the right to ask you to return them to "as leased" at the end of the contact I suspect that all four answers have been used at times, and written into contracts Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: a-driver on September 27, 2017, 14:27:11 I don't think GWR have to do too much to the HSTs before sending them north. It was reported elsewhere on the forum that the first set did its final diagram to Paignton, headed to Laira and was then on its way to Scotland within a few days. There was a lot of work that was carried out on the sets before its final diagram. The set was stopped quite a few times. The leasing company go over the set with a fine tooth comb, listing things such as a chipped armrest before it leaves Laira! Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: phile on September 27, 2017, 16:01:27 Just wondering if the last few posts have got to do with Traincrew Shortages.
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Chris from Nailsea on September 27, 2017, 16:08:43 Fair comment, phile - I'll sort that out in a few minutes (I'm dealing with something else at the moment!) :)
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: ray951 on October 02, 2017, 09:06:35 There seems to be a shortage of stock this morning:
I have seen 4 trains that normally run as 3 carriages running as 2 carriages today (0728 BAN - PAD, 0657 PAD- OXF, 0834 DID - PAD., 0721 PAD-OXF(?)) and a train that is normally class 180 (0807 Oxford - PAD) was a 5 car 165/166. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: ChrisB on October 02, 2017, 09:50:48 All the 180s have gone back, haven't they?
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: IndustryInsider on October 02, 2017, 11:51:40 All the 180s have gone back, haven't they? No, we still have four left until December. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: stuving on October 02, 2017, 12:51:38 All the 180s have gone back, haven't they? No, we still have four left until December. The franchise contract said: Quote Four of the Class 180 units (20 vehicles) will be subject to a sub-lease arrangement from Grand Central after the lease expiry date shown pending withdrawal from service linked to the IEP stock delivery. But the timing of that withdrawal, and what "delivery" really means, raises a few questions (as I posted on the IEP thread last night). And the Wikipedia page on 180s says one of those four units went back in May, and even names it as 180108. Presumably all the stock to be returned when 80xs replace them, under a lease, sublease, loan, or whatever, can only be kept longer by mutual agreement. If they would just go into sidings pending re-lease, there should be no problem with going back and saying "please sir can I have some more time?". Once a new operator has been lined up, then surely there is a cut-off point after which that's not possible, even with the DfT's heavies behind you. That seems to be where GWR find themselves, with what was to be little or no gap (between the last agreed withdrawal date for the first stock to go back and the 800s actually running) has opened up to several weeks. And by this late stage all they can do is try to cope, hoping the bright new dawn of sun-dappled pastures and gambolling fluffy 800s is not delayed even more. I have a mental image of GWR (and DfT as well) huddled down behind a big wardrobe pulled across the door, with pillows over their heads, waiting for the screaming and shouting to die down. "It's not long now, and there's nothing we can do, so just keep quiet and pretend we're not here". Which looks like a sort of survival strategy. Except ... why on Earth would you launch any kind of marketing campaign now, rather than more logically after your new trains are running about and it's safe to open the door again? Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: JayMac on October 02, 2017, 13:35:14 I've had a similar mental image.
Mark Hopwood with his fingers in his ears going, "La la la la la la la..." for the past few months. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: IndustryInsider on October 02, 2017, 13:55:37 There seems to be a shortage of stock this morning: I have seen 4 trains that normally run as 3 carriages running as 2 carriages today (0728 BAN - PAD, 0657 PAD- OXF, 0834 DID - PAD., 0721 PAD-OXF(?)) and a train that is normally class 180 (0807 Oxford - PAD) was a 5 car 165/166. The 08:34 DID-PAD is booked a 2-car as far as Reading, and a 5-car from there. That's what it was this morning. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Timmer on October 02, 2017, 14:39:34 why on Earth would you launch any kind of marketing campaign now, rather than more logically after your new trains are running about and it's safe to open the door again? Which is what we've been saying in other threads. It makes no sense except if you had booked the marketing agency long ago to launch the campaign at this time with the expectation that IETs would be operating by now. Even then these things can be postponed.Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Chris from Nailsea on October 02, 2017, 21:44:24 Accepting the inevitable, I have now expanded the heading of this topic to include October. ::) ;) ;D
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: NickB on October 06, 2017, 17:53:27 Fairly disastrous at Paddington this evening with the HST 18.00 to Bristol cancelled and the 17.49 to Worcester stripped from a HST to a 3 car turbo. Ta been said already but for Friday peak this just isn't good enough.
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: ChrisB on October 06, 2017, 18:26:19 1800 was quickly re-instated
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: NickB on October 06, 2017, 19:13:05 It read as Cancelled on the concourse but I see that it has indeed been reinstated and is only 26mins late to Reading.
The downgraded 17.49 left passengers on the platform. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Jason on October 09, 2017, 16:03:17 ...the 17.49 to Worcester stripped from a HST to a 3 car turbo. My evening peak SMS has just pinged to say the same will apply today as well. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: devonexpress on October 09, 2017, 21:55:07 why on Earth would you launch any kind of marketing campaign now, rather than more logically after your new trains are running about and it's safe to open the door again? Which is what we've been saying in other threads. It makes no sense except if you had booked the marketing agency long ago to launch the campaign at this time with the expectation that IETs would be operating by now. Even then these things can be postponed.But this is GWR, It took them over 2 years to rebrand from FGW to GWR. Wit that awful yellow branding and "Building a Greater West". They seem to think that promising loads of big exciting new things which are years away is one way of getting customers to keep quiet. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Surrey 455 on October 09, 2017, 23:39:32 But this is GWR, It took them over 2 years to rebrand from FGW to GWR. Hasn't finished yet. Still a lot of FGW branded trains about. I wonder what the split is between FGW and GWR. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: BBM on October 10, 2017, 09:48:07 Some Henley branch passengers are tweeting that they were left behind at TWY this morning after the 0753 to PAD (0706 from DID) was 3-car Turbo vice HST and left 2 minutes early as it was too wedged for anyone else to board.
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: johoare on October 10, 2017, 10:25:48 ...the 17.49 to Worcester stripped from a HST to a 3 car turbo. My evening peak SMS has just pinged to say the same will apply today as well. I was on the 17.42 electric train and saw the 17.49 3 car turbo come past. It looked very very full.. and not at all pleasant. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Adelante_CCT on October 11, 2017, 08:12:35 Quote Some Henley branch passengers are tweeting that they were left behind at TWY this morning after the 0753 to PAD (0706 from DID) was 3-car Turbo vice HST and left 2 minutes early as it was too wedged for anyone else to board. 07:06 a 3 car turbo again this morning, looks to have left Twyford early again. Also 2 days running the 07:34 from Didcot has been cancelled Edit: 07:00 from Didcot also a 3 car vice 6 car Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: NickB on October 11, 2017, 17:38:33 Bad news for Maidenhead travellers in particular this evening. The 17.49 HST is running as a 5 car and the 18.18 is 3 cars.
That's a 6 car reduction overall on the two busiest services of the evening and 1.5hrs between fully formed fast services (17.36 to 19.05). Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: grahame on October 11, 2017, 17:52:08 Bad news for Maidenhead travellers in particular this evening. The 17.49 HST is running as a 5 car and the 18.18 is 3 cars. That's a 6 car reduction overall on the two busiest services of the evening and 1.5hrs between fully formed fast services (17.36 to 19.05). But then they do have extra capacity on the new electric trains ... Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: NickB on October 11, 2017, 17:54:39 But then they do have extra capacity on the new electric trains ... You mean those slow trains that stop everywhere? 😀 Even the 18.42 that only stops at Slough takes 40mins. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: ChrisB on October 11, 2017, 18:04:56 So a seat for 40mins or a 20min stand....?
Capacity for everyone then Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: NickB on October 11, 2017, 18:49:30 I'd take the 20min stand every time and the loading of direct services proves I'm not in the minority.
My round trip commute is 2.5hrs per day - if I take a slower train that extends by nearly an hour per day, 5hrs a week or 20hrs per month. That's not an acceptable sacrifice in my opinion. My point still stands (no pun intended) that shortening all of the fast services over a 1.5hr peak time window is shoddy. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Adelante_CCT on October 13, 2017, 07:42:49 For some reason all Heathrow Connects this morning are cancelled 'due to more repairs than usual', something wrong with the class 360s?
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: BBM on October 13, 2017, 11:21:54 For some reason all Heathrow Connects this morning are cancelled 'due to more repairs than usual', something wrong with the class 360s? A post on the RailUKforums site is saying that a 'significant' number of HC and HEx units suffered pantograph damage yesterday: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/heathrow-connect-suspended-all-day-13-10-17.155764/#post-3157299 (https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/heathrow-connect-suspended-all-day-13-10-17.155764/#post-3157299) Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: janes on October 19, 2017, 22:50:49 The last two stoppers from Reading to Oxford are cancelled YET AGAIN tonight! No coherent excuses seem to be being proffered for this outrage.
This continuing level of (non) service is totally unacceptable! The last trains to anywhere should NEVER be the ones to be cancelled, let alone the last TWO trains. Now got to try and persuade the Reading station staff to call taxis yet again... last time this happened, they ordered 6 but only 3 arrived and we had to wait half an hour! Sometimes they don't even call taxis at all. With all the money we pay for our season tickets, I expect to receive the service I have paid for (i.e. not to get home at 2am when I had intended to get home at midnight!) Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: NickB on October 20, 2017, 07:17:57 As previously mentioned, if GWR don't get this debacle sorted before the Christmas Party silly season there is likely to be a substantial increase in 'public order' offences at Paddington and other hotspots for their staff and BTP to deal with.
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: TaplowGreen on October 20, 2017, 09:49:40 I believe that all available drivers are on standby to push the new 800 series whenever they break down which is restricting availability 😉
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: NickB on October 20, 2017, 11:11:37 I believe that all available drivers are on standby to push the new 800 series whenever they break down which is restricting availability 😉 Push by hand? ;) I think that I saw this on Thomas The Tank Engine once when Gordon got stuck. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: janes on October 20, 2017, 15:26:27 To update you - I arrived at Reading at midnight to find I was no longer eligible for a taxi because these had only been provided at 11:40 to replace the first cancelled train (which, as I pointed out, was the one I had planned to have been on had it not been cancelled from London.... hence why I had had to wait for the next one!)
A replacement bus was provided at 00:45 hours (which was NOT showing on the information screens and was NOT being announced over the tannoy to coincide with the arrival of services from PAD containing displaced passengers (finally was announced after managed to obtain assistance from 2 friendly members of staff). Hence there weren't very many of us on it (many were not prepared to wait, and paid for taxis themselves). Arrived home at 01:15am (an improvement on last time at least.) So my questions are: Why were these services cancelled in the first place? Why was the replacement bus not showing on the screens? Why were Reading managers not waiting for each arrival (fast or stopper) from PAD to meet us on the platfiorm and advise us what was happening? Why were there no timely tannoy announcements (i.e. before people got fed up and left)? Why did we have to actively go and search for staff to help us when managers surely already knew (from previous occasions this had happened) that people would be needing assistance? GRRR!!!! Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: John R on October 20, 2017, 15:34:10 To update you - I arrived at Reading at midnight to find I was no longer eligible for a taxi because these had only been provided at 11:40 to replace the first cancelled train (which, as I pointed out, was the one I had planned to have been on had it not been cancelled from London.... hence why I had had to wait for the next one!) Whilst the whole sorry saga is totally unacceptable, that point stands out as deliberately going out of their way to make life difficult for passengers. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: WelshBluebird on October 20, 2017, 15:54:09 Why were there no timely tannoy announcements (i.e. before people got fed up and left)? Specifically regarding tannoy announcements, not sure if what the situation is at Reading but when I complained to a member of staff at Bristol Temple Meads about the lack of tannoy announcements later at night (though this was only 11.15pm) I was told "what do you expect at this time of night" as apparently there are not enough staff on duty at that time to have someone actively "man" the annoy. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: froome on October 20, 2017, 16:02:55 Why were there no timely tannoy announcements (i.e. before people got fed up and left)? Specifically regarding tannoy announcements, not sure if what the situation is at Reading but when I complained to a member of staff at Bristol Temple Meads about the lack of tannoy announcements later at night (though this was only 11.15pm) I was told "what do you expect at this time of night" as apparently there are not enough staff on duty at that time to have someone actively "man" the annoy. Your typo is very relevant to the thread! :-\ At Temple Meads I'm not sure which is worse, that they have no announcements when they would be so helpful late at night, or having two or more announcements at the same time, as often happens during the day, which ensures you can't hear either properly. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: broadgage on October 20, 2017, 16:11:26 ----- So my questions are: Why were these services cancelled in the first place? Why was the replacement bus not showing on the screens? Why were Reading managers not waiting for each arrival (fast or stopper) from PAD to meet us on the platfiorm and advise us what was happening? Why were there no timely tannoy announcements (i.e. before people got fed up and left)? Why did we have to actively go and search for staff to help us when managers surely already knew (from previous occasions this had happened) that people would be needing assistance? GRRR!!!! IMHO, the services are cancelled due to lack of basic competence in engaging enough staff. I doubt that lack of rolling stock is the problem late at night when the service is less intensive. Replacement bus not advertised because it would encourage people to use it, and expect buses in future. Managers at Reading, and elsewhere tend to hide at times of disruption. No announcements, because again it would encourage future demand for buses. I believe that there is a policy to minimise provision of buses and taxis due to the expense, and the extra staff time taken up in arranging same. Best to do nothing if possible, and if not possible to do nothing, then do as little as possible as late and as slowly as possible, and DO NOT advertise it. With a bit of luck the wretched passengers will give up asking. But never mind it will all get much better when the new trains arrive :) Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Timmer on October 20, 2017, 17:21:45 A warm welcome to the forum janes. Disappointed to read about the poor service that you are having to put up with trains out of Reading late at night. Sadly this is nothing new with regards to these last late night trains with this having been discussed elsewhere on this forum before. Apologies I am unable to find it right now.
I would suggest writing to GWR to get compensation and to let them know about the poor level of service experienced. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: TaplowGreen on October 20, 2017, 17:52:29 A warm welcome to the forum janes. Disappointed to read about the poor service that you are having to put up with trains out of Reading late at night. Sadly this is nothing new with regards to these last late night trains with this having been discussed elsewhere on this forum before. Apologies I am unable to find it right now. I would suggest writing to GWR to get compensation and to let them know about the poor level of service experienced. If I were you janes I'd email Hopwood direct, his address is pretty easy to find......cc it to a newspaper too & you'll get a far quicker response than using the bog standard GWR address, most likely you'll wait months for a cut/paste reply that way (if at all)........it comes under GWR's odd concept of Customer Service, along with your experience at Reading! Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Adelante_CCT on October 20, 2017, 18:13:14 Quote GRRR!!!! Perhaps that should be GWRRRR!!! Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: janes on October 20, 2017, 18:18:26 Thanks or the sympathy guys!
BTW I'm not actually a "newbie", rather a "returnee", as I gave up on the forum a while back due to login issues (which now seem to have been resolved during my absence :)). I just want to emphasise that I have no criticism at all of the staff who did eventually assist us last night (and on the previous occasion) who could not have been more helpful - my issues are with the invisible management and complete absence of joined-up thinking! (& this was not by a long chalk the worst case of the latter I have experienced in similar circumstances!) Re the tannoy - the excuse I was given was that they did not want to announce it until the bus had actually arrived (presumably in case it went AWOL.... like 3 of the taxis did last time!)..... Interestingly the bus driver seemed to think he may need to pick up passengers at the intermediate stations to Oxford - surely it is highly unlikely that anyone would be waiting for a bus they did not know existed at a time much later that the advertised train departure that they would have been intending to catch! Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: stuving on October 20, 2017, 18:34:35 Why were these services cancelled in the first place? The official listed reason (on Real Time Trains) for the first cancellation, the 23:45 ex Reading, was "an issue with the train crew (TG)." I believe TG encodes "[a]waiting driver". For the second cancellation, the 00:27 ex Reading, the reason listed is "a delay not investigated (OU)." While that's unhelpful, the code does explicitly label it as Network's Rail's responsibility. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: TaplowGreen on October 20, 2017, 20:22:22 Why were these services cancelled in the first place? For the second cancellation, the 00:27 ex Reading, the reason listed is "a delay not investigated (OU)." While that's unhelpful, the code does explicitly label it as Network's Rail's responsibility. I'm sure that would be a huge consolation to those left hanging around in the early hours ::) Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Ollie on October 20, 2017, 22:42:36 The message on Journey Check for the 22:27 and 23:33 locals from Paddington was "Shortage of Train Crew" - both trains are DOO so that would be a case of both trains not having a driver available.
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: BBM on October 20, 2017, 23:02:40 Journey Check is showing that tonight's 23:49 stopper from PAD to Reading is cancelled - "This is due to a fault on this train."
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Timmer on October 23, 2017, 05:56:57 Notice a number of HSS services cancelled this morning. Have more left for Scotland, wheel flats?
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: TaplowGreen on October 23, 2017, 06:32:26 Notice a number of HSS services cancelled this morning. Have more left for Scotland, wheel flats? ................shortage of trains AND shortage of drivers, an interesting paradox. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Timmer on October 23, 2017, 09:00:15 ................shortage of trains AND shortage of drivers, an interesting paradox. Yes including peak time services as well. Driver training for the introduction of Turbos between Cardiff-Portsmouth/Weymouth as these are the lines mainly affected?Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: ChrisB on October 23, 2017, 09:52:24 An HST an coaches left for Ely Sidings yesterday, reported on another forum. Wabtec is full, and went to storage.
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: grahame on October 23, 2017, 10:10:17 ................shortage of trains AND shortage of drivers, an interesting paradox. Yes including peak time services as well. Driver training for the introduction of Turbos between Cardiff-Portsmouth/Weymouth as these are the lines mainly affected?Driver training is certainly touted as a major factor. We had a 2 car 150 on the TransWilts for much of yesterday - thank goodness because even with that it was so busy a few people chose to stand. Something longer than a 153 can't come soon enough. Noting comment on another thread - almost undoubtedly half term is also having an effect - just as the general public has time with the children and takes time of work if possible, so it's the same with industry managers (lots of "out of office" messages this week) and no doubt with their operational folks too. Problem being this is the very time you need to have a full complement of operational staff, and managers to redirect them in the event of any issues arising. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Timmer on October 23, 2017, 10:14:23 An HST an coaches left for Ely Sidings yesterday, reported on another forum. Wabtec is full, and went to storage. So an HST that could have run this morning sits in Cambridgeshire whilst services here get cancelled because GWR don't have enough rolling stock to run the full HSS timetable today. What a way to run a railway.Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: grahame on October 23, 2017, 10:19:28 An HST an coaches left for Ely Sidings yesterday, reported on another forum. Wabtec is full, and went to storage. So an HST that could have run this morning sits in Cambridgeshire whilst services here get cancelled because GWR don't have enough rolling stock to run the full HSS timetable today. What a way to run a railway.What a way indeed! I understand that it's just the carriages that are being left on The Fens for a while - apparently the class 43 'locomotives' aren't just being stored. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: broadgage on October 23, 2017, 10:23:24 ................shortage of trains AND shortage of drivers, an interesting paradox. Yes including peak time services as well. Driver training for the introduction of Turbos between Cardiff-Portsmouth/Weymouth as these are the lines mainly affected?Well obviously we cant blame GWR for that ;D There is of course no way that this transfer of rolling stock could have been foreseen and planned for, it is bad as Easter arriving without warning ;D Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: ChrisB on October 23, 2017, 10:24:48 Think you'll find that they were due off lease sometime ago - and this was the new end date.
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Timmer on October 23, 2017, 10:30:51 Think you'll find that they were due off lease sometime ago - and this was the new end date. Indeed. Cold comfort for those whose train was cancelled this morning. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: broadgage on October 23, 2017, 10:31:05 An HST an coaches left for Ely Sidings yesterday, reported on another forum. Wabtec is full, and went to storage. So an HST that could have run this morning sits in Cambridgeshire whilst services here get cancelled because GWR don't have enough rolling stock to run the full HSS timetable today. What a way to run a railway.Indeed, lack of basic competence in running a railway. To send rolling stock away whilst it is still needed may be contractually required if it is urgently needed elsewhere, but to send it away FOR STORAGE is simply indefensible. Unless of course this is in fact a policy ? to show the new DMUs in a better light ? "look shiny new trains, much more reliable than the old ones that were always being cancelled" Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: ChrisB on October 23, 2017, 10:33:07 A contract is a contract.....
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: broadgage on October 23, 2017, 10:39:30 A contract is a contract..... Unless with network rail for electrification. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: SandTEngineer on October 23, 2017, 10:40:46 A contract is a contract..... .....but contracts can always be varied if required (and the cash is available..... :P ). Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: WelshBluebird on October 23, 2017, 10:44:56 A contract is a contract..... So who on earth thought it was a good idea to make the contract for a set date, rather than take into consideration other rolling stock? Surely it isn't that difficult to have had the contract say the HST's leave GWR whenever GWR get x number of 800's in active service? Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: stuving on October 23, 2017, 10:57:54 A contract is a contract..... So who on earth thought it was a good idea to make the contract for a set date, rather than take into consideration other rolling stock? Surely it isn't that difficult to have had the contract say the HST's leave GWR whenever GWR get x number of 800's in active service? Difficult? Yes, and costly. The HST leases were flexible while there was no following use for them. When a new life was worked out for them, it involved a big rework job, and it's the timing of that work (on power cars and carriages) that can't easily be shifted. At some stage (probably a year or maybe two ahead) all sides had to commit to the timings, including the end of lease. But I don't think this scheduling issue has a lot to do with there being a contract between separate companies. I can imagine that if one part of a big unitary railway business asked another to make such a change the answer would be "no - impossible". And appealing upwards to the "lowest common manager" would probably reaffirm the same answer. And anyway, what kind of service can you offer with a rake of Mk 3s and no power cars? A bit slow, I'd have thought. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: IndustryInsider on October 23, 2017, 11:07:35 Especially with no drivers either.
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: stuving on October 23, 2017, 11:22:36 Especially with no drivers either. Don't GWR management schedule their missing drivers to drive* their missing trains? * or "to not drive", if you prefer Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: hassaanhc on October 23, 2017, 18:27:04 There seem to be no short forms posted on JourneyCheck this evening! But the list was quite long in the morning, with a Bedwyn diagram being 2 coaches instead of 3, plus another diagram being formed of 2 coaches instead of 5 and a 4 coaches instead of 5.
I've noticed that this week (at least) the 2R47 1512 London Paddington to Reading (due 1611) and 2K70 1612 Reading to Newbury are combined as the 2K70 1512½ London Paddington to Newbury. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: NickB on October 23, 2017, 18:58:30 The 17.49 Padd-Worcester was a 5 car adelante as opposed to an HST which appeared to come as a surprise to the driver who needed a couple of PA nudges to go to the train.
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: hassaanhc on October 23, 2017, 20:47:33 The 17.49 Padd-Worcester was a 5 car adelante as opposed to an HST which appeared to come as a surprise to the driver who needed a couple of PA nudges to go to the train. I've heard a few announcements at Paddington calling drivers by name to go to their train. Wonder if the union has said anything ;DTitle: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: phile on October 23, 2017, 20:51:50 There seem to be no short forms posted on JourneyCheck this evening! But the list was quite long in the morning, with a Bedwyn diagram being 2 coaches instead of 3, plus another diagram being formed of 2 coaches instead of 5 and a 4 coaches instead of 5. I've noticed that this week (at least) the 2R47 1512 London Paddington to Reading (due 1611) and 2K70 1612 Reading to Newbury are combined as the 2K70 1512½ London Paddington to Newbury. Posting short forms on Journey check can often be hit and miss Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: bobm on October 23, 2017, 21:56:48 so it's the same with industry managers (lots of "out of office" messages this week) Nothing wrong with out of office messages - they alert you to a possible delay in a reply, but when they suggest you contact someone else and you also get an out of office message from them you start to wonder as I did today. They weren't railway related people so you realise it isn't just restricted to one industry! Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: grahame on October 24, 2017, 15:04:55 An HST an coaches left for Ely Sidings yesterday, reported on another forum. Wabtec is full, and went to storage. So an HST that could have run this morning sits in Cambridgeshire whilst services here get cancelled because GWR don't have enough rolling stock to run the full HSS timetable today. What a way to run a railway.From journey check today. (My naughty edit!) Quote 15:00 London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads due 16:38 15:00 London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads due 16:38 will be cancelled. This is due to more trains than usual Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: phile on October 24, 2017, 16:50:33 The HSTs being sent to Scotland (via the Fens) have got to be sent by the agreed date. Unlike anything internal arrangements could probably be made with the DFT to delay and transfers but as Scotrail is run by Transport for Scotland and not the DFT the contracted release and transfer dates have to be adhered to.
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: hassaanhc on October 24, 2017, 19:58:23 An HST an coaches left for Ely Sidings yesterday, reported on another forum. Wabtec is full, and went to storage. So an HST that could have run this morning sits in Cambridgeshire whilst services here get cancelled because GWR don't have enough rolling stock to run the full HSS timetable today. What a way to run a railway.From journey check today. (My naughty edit!) Quote 15:00 London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads due 16:38 15:00 London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads due 16:38 will be cancelled. This is due to more trains than usual It is only fair if you also have the following variation: Quote Facilities on the 19:50 London Paddington to Banbury due 21:26. ;D ;D ;DThis is due to more trains Will be formed of 2 coaches instead of 3. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Timmer on October 24, 2017, 20:40:38 Touché
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Timmer on November 03, 2017, 08:37:11 A lot of short formed services today on West services. Could be some cozy journeys for some.
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: froome on November 03, 2017, 10:00:07 May be time to change the thread title again to Shortage of rolling stock in the forseeable future/forever (delete as applicable).
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Timmer on November 03, 2017, 10:12:24 May be time to change the thread title again to Shortage of rolling stock in the forseeable future/forever (delete as applicable). Hopefully for not much longer once the Turbo fleet finally arrives here in force.Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: simonw on November 03, 2017, 11:47:43 And when will that be?
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: paul7575 on November 03, 2017, 12:16:10 And when will that be? Planned for January 2018, following full EMU operations between Paddington and Didcot.Paul Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: ChrisB on November 03, 2017, 12:24:05 "At least half the turbo fleet will have left (the Thames Valley) by the end of the year" is a quote from a GWR manager contact's email recently.
That indicates to ms that there will be another tranche to follow (May presumably) Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: paul7575 on November 03, 2017, 12:40:53 "At least half the turbo fleet will have left (the Thames Valley) by the end of the year" is a quote from a GWR manager contact's email recently. That indicates to ms that there will be another tranche to follow (May presumably) "At least half" might just be the number that allows for all the remaining Turbo operated services. Those still used for Greenford, Windsor, Marlow, Henley, the North Downs line, Didcot to Banbury, Newbury (are there any more?) certainly won't be leaving in May. Paul Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: ChrisB on November 03, 2017, 12:45:03 Indeed...so how many in the whole GWR turbo fleet? I thought nearer 75% were going
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Adelante_CCT on November 03, 2017, 12:55:38 Quote (are there any more?) Basingstoke Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Adelante_CCT on November 03, 2017, 13:00:59 Indeed...so how many in the whole GWR turbo fleet? I thought nearer 75% were going More will go over time. Newbury being electrified releases 2 more turbos with the odd one here and there when the Cotswold line has more class 800s on it. Another couple if and when Didcot to Oxford is electrified. Edit - not forgetting the Bedwyns when they are taken over by 800s Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: paul7575 on November 03, 2017, 13:30:22 Quote (are there any more?) Basingstoke The only ones I ever use... ::) Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: WelshBluebird on November 03, 2017, 18:22:55 Not sure if this is a reaction to the rolling stock issues, but at least twice this week the 17.49 from Bristol to Weymouth has had a SWT (or now SWR I guess) 2 carriage 158 as part of the formation. Not going to complain as people don't realise the first class section is declassified so it's an easy way to get a seat!
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: phile on November 03, 2017, 18:51:23 Not sure if this is a reaction to the rolling stock issues, but at least twice this week the 17.49 from Bristol to Weymouth has had a SWT (or now SWR I guess) 2 carriage 158 as part of the formation. Not going to complain as people don't realise the first class section is declassified so it's an easy way to get a seat! This is a second hired in one on a semi/permanent basis but not sure for exactly how long Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Chris from Nailsea on November 03, 2017, 23:04:31 May be time to change the thread title again to Shortage of rolling stock in the forseeable future/forever (delete as applicable). Hopefully for not much longer once the Turbo fleet finally arrives here in force.I've therefore now made a compromise change to this topic's heading - pending future developments. ;) :D ;D Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Richard Fairhurst on November 05, 2017, 15:45:33 1332 Hereford-Paddington is a two coach Turbo today. Standing room only before Charlbury, where we boarded; one cyclist left on the platform at Charlbury. Fortunately we’re getting off at Oxford...
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: ChrisB on November 05, 2017, 15:53:37 Nothing on Journeycheck about this train - although it does mention that the preceding train (1315 GMV-PAD) is also a 2car turbo vice 5cars (Adelante?) owing to a faulty train.
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Adelante_CCT on November 05, 2017, 16:18:54 3+2 turbo is what it should have been, Adelantes* don't do weekends (much like many GWR staff)
* (Excluding me) Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: IndustryInsider on November 05, 2017, 17:48:28 The 12:42 PAD-HFD and 16:34 HFD-PAD have been in the hands of a 180 on Sunday’s recently.
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: 1st fan on November 05, 2017, 22:15:04 One weekend a few years ago a three car turbo turned up in place of an HST. The official explanation was a fault with the expected train. The train manager said that was rubbish and they hadn't got enough drivers willing to work Sundays. There was a large contingent of far eastern tourists at Moreton in Marsh going back to London to add to the crush. We left some people on the platform at Charlbury because there wasn't any room. I've seen tube carriages in the rush hour that weren't as full as that train. I had planned to get off at Oxford and wait for a subsequent service. This proved impossible as it was chaos with people trying to get on from a fairly full platform.
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: initiation on November 07, 2017, 08:23:42 I get text updates from GWR which are quite handy. Only for an hour and a half in the morning and an hour in the evening on week days but is useful to wake up and see immediately if a train has a problem.
The 0735 Taunton to Bristol Parkway seems to be a reoccurring problem. I have counted the number of texts relating to this train over the past 8 weeks (13th Sept) and have 18 times when it was reported short formed or cancelled. There are 40 working days in 8 weeks so that is 45% of journeys having a problem! Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Chris from Nailsea on November 07, 2017, 22:11:40 I, too, still choose to receive those text updates, which relate back to when I used to commute daily into Bristol. ;)
They serve to remind me why I'm so relieved that I no longer have to endure that particular disruption. ;D The 0735 Taunton departure is one of the trains I used to struggle with - until I was made redundant, more than eight years ago now. Interesting to see that nothing much has changed over the intervening years, railway reliability-wise. ::) Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: hassaanhc on November 09, 2017, 11:25:00 According to driver's announcement, the 2P22 0625 Banbury to London Paddington had a door fault at Goring & Streatley, which caused it to be 5 minutes late (although it often seems to be that late anyway ;D). Luckily the door was able to be locked out of use, otherwise that would have been a 5-car set taken out of service (166211+165129, with doors C in coach 58890 of 165129 being locked out of use).
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: IndustryInsider on November 09, 2017, 12:24:06 Sometimes a faulty door can be just locked out of use on a Turbo with no further issues, sometimes it means that carriage has to come out of use (for example if it is an end set of doors with no corridor connection into another carriage) and sometimes the whole unit has to come out of service (if it is an end set of doors, and it’s in the carriage that contains the emergency evacuation equipment). Looks like it was the first option this morning.
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: NickB on November 15, 2017, 18:00:16 Has anyone else noticed how Joirneycheck is failing to keep up with the number of HST replacements and short-formed trains? After several miserable experiences I now check the Train Formation Changes section but have recently been on several 3-car turbos replacing HST’s at peak time that aren’t featured on the site.
Are the changes really last minute, which I doubt given it must be that formation for a period of the day, or has GWR stopped tracking this issue? Example being tonight’s 17.49 to Worcester which is deeply unpleasant. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Adelante_CCT on November 15, 2017, 18:33:56 Quote Facilities on the 17:49 London Paddington to Worcester Shrub Hill due 20:05. This is due to a fault on this train. Will be formed of 3 coaches instead of 8. Admittedly this was posted on journeycheck at 18:00, after departure time. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: IndustryInsider on November 15, 2017, 19:42:33 Sometimes very last minute, when the booked train fails during mobilisation at Paddington for example but not always.
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: martyjon on November 15, 2017, 20:59:12 Although at the outset you may think what now follows has to do with the tile of this thread but bear with me.
Many years ago an organisation I was involved with voluntarily had the need to hire an Atlas Copco road drill/breaker to break up some hefty concrete slabs/foundations. The equipment we hired cost us a low daily (£5) hire charge plus a 'power by the hour' charge of £25. The power unit had a sealed hours run counter attached to it and we had the hired plant for a period covering three consecutive weekends and thus we were able to use it for an hour or so in the light summer evenings. Compare the above to car hire where you can hire a vehicle for a number of days plus a mileage charge. I cannot understand why the ROSCOS don't procure additional stock above what a TOC;s requirement. For example if GWR orders or rather the DfT sanctions an order for say 46 387 4 car EMU sets then why not the ROSCO order say 52 sets and have 6 sets available for 'Spot Hire' by GWR and other TOC's who operate them. I am well aware that in today's world the practice of contracting the train builder to set up a maintainence facility and to contract to have a fixed number of units available for service daily things do go 'pop' during the day. For example a drunk empties the contents of their abdomen over seats and the floor of a unit, a unit hits a stray sheep which has vaulted over a line side fence and been hit, both instances requiring the unit to be withdrawn from service and the current epidemic of 'more trains than usual requiring repairs at the same time'. A number of years ago, Porterbrook I think it was ordered speculatively 3 additional sets, I think it was class 170's or 172's which were liveried in plain white and they were snapped up very quickly by an operator or operators. I appreciate that a TOC's drivers must have traction knowledge for any stock being 'spot hired' in so there are limited possibilities for such a scheme to work but even so where there's a will, there's a way. Hope my post hasn't bored those who have got to this final sentence. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: ChrisB on November 15, 2017, 21:45:18 With no guarantee of any spot-hire, the daily rates must be astronomical?
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: broadgage on November 15, 2017, 22:42:38 Although customers for spot hire of trains cant be promised, looking at the ongoing shortages of rolling stock it would seem worthwhile to keep a small reserve fleet.
If the costs of new stock are prohibitive, at least keep some of the old ones for a bit. I cant support the scrapping of ANY serviceable trains until we see a complete end to short formations "due to more trains than usual needing repair". AND a complete end to standing on trains where the infrastructure could support longer or more numerous trains. In the case of GWR, services could be greatly improved by keeping just 6 extra trains, 2 each at or near London, Plymouth, and Penzance. Early morning departures from Penzance seem to be a regular victim of no train available due to an earlier failure, Provision of 2 spares would enable an on time departure, in the booked path, and using the booked crew. Services from Paddington are regularly delayed or cancelled because the incoming train is late, spares would help. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Sixty3Closure on November 15, 2017, 23:02:42 Services from Paddington are regularly delayed or cancelled because the incoming train is late, spares would help. I was thinking about 'reserve' trains from the customer's point of view which doesn't always feature highly for GWR. And to a certain extent why would it with the way income and penalties are calculated. Thinking of them in terms of keeping trains moving, crews in the right place and avoiding a domino effect it make more sense for the TOC but until the penalties out weight the costs I can't really see it happening. I do get a feeling of dread going home now not knowing if my train will be 2 or 3 carriages instead of 6 or 8. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: ellendune on November 15, 2017, 23:09:26 I was thinking about 'reserve' trains from the customer's point of view which doesn't always feature highly for GWR. And to a certain extent why would it with the way income and penalties are calculated. Thinking of them in terms of keeping trains moving, crews in the right place and avoiding a domino effect it make more sense for the TOC but until the penalties out weight the costs I can't really see it happening. Ahh but that would cost the government money and clause 2 of our unwritten constitution would say if it was written that government must always pay the minimum cost for anything regardless of whether that costs the country more :o and even if it would end up costing the government more :o. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: ChrisB on November 16, 2017, 09:33:38 And where does the Government get its money from - you & I the fare payers/taxpayers
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: 1st fan on November 16, 2017, 11:14:59 Has anyone else noticed how Joirneycheck is failing to keep up with the number of HST replacements and short-formed trains? After several miserable experiences I now check the Train Formation Changes section but have recently been on several 3-car turbos replacing HST’s at peak time that aren’t featured on the site. I can imagine having been on a 3 car Turbo from Moreton In Marsh that was as full as I've seen carriages on London Underground. That was because the booked HST had a fault if you believed the official line and because they didn't have enough HST drivers working on a Sunday if you believed the Train manager. Are the changes really last minute, which I doubt given it must be that formation for a period of the day, or has GWR stopped tracking this issue? Example being tonight’s 17.49 to Worcester which is deeply unpleasant. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: ellendune on November 16, 2017, 19:29:29 And where does the Government get its money from - you & I the fare payers/taxpayers Of course. But a) the chepest price is sometimes more expensive; and b) the cost to the country as a whole (whoever pays) is not always thought about these days - it may save the country money for government to provide or procure a service rather than individuals. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Electric train on November 16, 2017, 21:37:12 And where does the Government get its money from - you & I the fare payers/taxpayers Of course. But a) the chepest price is sometimes more expensive; and b) the cost to the country as a whole (whoever pays) is not always thought about these days - it may save the country money for government to provide or procure a service rather than individuals. Also UK PLC hates investing in infrastructure, the expectation is "industry & business" should be benevolent enough to fund it ............. after according to UK PLC it is industry & business that benefits from it Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Tim on November 17, 2017, 09:22:00 With no guarantee of any spot-hire, the daily rates must be astronomical? Agreed. But keeping a few trains back from the scrapheap would be far cheaper. But I suspect that it would not be in the ROSCOs' interests to have cheap spare trains of any age kicking around. Keeping trains in short supply keep their prices high. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Sixty3Closure on November 20, 2017, 09:14:57 6 coaches on the 06.53 from Twyford this morning but 3 of them out of action due to a coolant leak from the engine which is a new one for me.
All got a bit bad tempered at Maidenhead. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: martyjon on November 28, 2017, 11:41:35 Met a former fitter from SPM earlier this morning and in course of conversation mentioned about poor services lately.
His words, 'Honestly you've got to hear it to believe it. Two class 150 sprinters out of service awaiting a wheelset change on one vehicle. Cant split the two sets and temporarily form a good set with the two goodvehicles because one set belongs to Angel Trains and tother set is Porterbrooks. ??? Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Timmer on November 28, 2017, 12:29:50 His words, 'Honestly you've got to hear it to believe it. Two class 150 sprinters out of service awaiting a wheelset change on one vehicle. Cant split the two sets and temporarily form a good set with the two goodvehicles because one set belongs to Angel Trains and tother set is Porterbrooks. ??? 'National Rail - Britain's Railways Working Together' What tosh!Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: welshman on December 03, 2017, 17:10:38 At what point does "more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time" cease to be a correct statement? The GWR JourneyCheck reports dozens of amended train formations every day. There were 28 when I looked just now and about 50 the other morning.
I think they should be honest and report "as many trains as usual needing repairs at the same time". Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: bobm on December 07, 2017, 17:21:30 Quote 17:42 London Paddington to Cheltenham Spa due 19:47 Facilities on the 17:42 London Paddington to Cheltenham Spa due 19:47. This is due to more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time. Will be formed of 6 coaches instead of 8. Last Updated:07/12/2017 17:11 HST missing coaches C and E. Keep losing them at this rate and it could go to Cornwall.... ;D Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Worcester_Passenger on December 07, 2017, 17:44:32 At one stage JourneyCheck was reporting the 17:49 from Paddington to Worcester Shrub Hill as being formed of 6 coaches instead of 8 - but it's now down to a cosy 2 coaches instead of 8.
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: didcotdean on December 07, 2017, 18:21:53 Quote 17:42 London Paddington to Cheltenham Spa due 19:47 Facilities on the 17:42 London Paddington to Cheltenham Spa due 19:47. This is due to more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time. Will be formed of 6 coaches instead of 8. Last Updated:07/12/2017 17:11 HST missing coaches C and E. Keep losing them at this rate and it could go to Cornwall.... ;D I encountered a 6 coach HST set last week. Chiltern are also regularly short these days from "more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time". Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: ChrisB on December 07, 2017, 19:12:08 At one stage JourneyCheck was reporting the 17:49 from Paddington to Worcester Shrub Hill as being formed of 6 coaches instead of 8 - but it's now down to a cosy 2 coaches instead of 8. See the post above yours....it was nicked to form the 1742 to Cheltenham. Seems as though the South Cotswolds trumps the North Cotswolds! (Maybe the 2car turbo isn't cleared on South Cotswolds...) Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: NickB on December 12, 2017, 17:57:55 The 18.18 Paddington to Oxford is former of 3 rather than 6 coaches this evening due to a broken down train. Sadly no surprise there but what did interest me is that Maidenhead (first calling point) has been struck from the list. All other stations will be served as normal.
As anyone familiar with this service will attest, it is the busiest service for Maidenhead passengers of the evening peak. Perhaps 80% of passengers disembark there and it is always full and standing. Has this train had Maidenhead struck from its calling points in order to avoid the overcrowding that would ensue on the remaining 3 coaches? If so that is bad form in my opinion. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: ChrisB on December 12, 2017, 18:12:39 Why? You simply wouldn't squeeze 6standing cars into half the space. So cut out just one stop & there's enough.
The other solution would be to cut more than one stop. Best to just miss the one I reckon. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: NickB on December 12, 2017, 18:16:04 So everyone gets to wait at Paddington for an hour rather than half the passengers getting home? Awesome.
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: ChrisB on December 12, 2017, 18:22:57 Sorry, there's more than one train an hour to Maidenhead!!!
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: NickB on December 12, 2017, 18:31:39 The next Train is a 40min service which gets to Maidenhead at 19.20. That’s 40mins after the 18.18.
Most passengers for the 18.18 know to arrive at Paddington by 18.05 in order to board so that’s an hour and twenty from Paddington to Maidenhead. But in pure timetabling terms a 45min delay. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: grahame on December 12, 2017, 18:39:19 So everyone gets to wait at Paddington for an hour rather than half the passengers getting home? Awesome. Not understanding why everyone might get to wait an hour. As well as the 18:18 there are (admittedly slower) trains to Maidenhead at 18:10, 18:25, 18:42 and 18:50 - a couple of which are electrics and terminating at Maidenhead, so unlikely to be overcrowded (for another three weeks). It makes sense to drop an early stop that's predominantly set-down where there's overcrowding likely an a more frequent service to that early stop. Indeed there have been some timetables scheduled so that limited capacity services running a longer or diverging route don't collect significant traffic that would displace users headed for the further, less frequent places. edit to add I was a bit slow in researching that. I can understand an hour from arriving at Paddington Station to leaving Maidenhead Station, especially if people are in the habit of arriving early and awaiting the 18:18. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Adelante_CCT on December 12, 2017, 19:54:32 The next Train is a 40min service which gets to Maidenhead at 19.20. That’s 40mins after the 18.18. Most passengers for the 18.18 know to arrive at Paddington by 18.05 in order to board so that’s an hour and twenty from Paddington to Maidenhead. But in pure timetabling terms a 45min delay. 18:18 arrives Maidenhead at 18:39 18:25 arrives Maidenhead at 19:10 18:42 arrives Maidenhead at 19:14 I don't see that as a 45 minutes delay. We discussed this the other day on this forum when a Cotswold train was 2 car vice 8 and it was suggested that passengers for Maidenhead should try an electric train for a more comfortable service, whilst it was suggested on here as to why not miss out the stop altogether to make the train more comfortable (or simply be able to board) for those travelling further afield. I agree that this should be done when necessary Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: NickB on December 12, 2017, 22:32:28 The 18.42 never arrives on time and has been running an average of 7.5mins late for the past month - often 15 to 20 mins late. If I arrive at Paddington at 18.00 or thereabouts to catch the 18.18 then extending my journey by a further 20, 30 or 40mins is not acceptable in my opinion.
BUT - We are arguing semantics about timings. The original point that I was trying to make is that cancelling services because they might be busy is a new phenomena in my experience and one that personally I am not happy about. In this particular example a couple of hundred passengers had to wait for a later, slower, train than they needed to. Whether the train in short formation could have taken ALL passengers that would have wanted to take it is not in doubt, but a couple of hundred had that choice removed. That is not good in my opinion. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: ellendune on December 12, 2017, 22:39:42 So what were the alternatives for the Oxford Passengers?
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: NickB on December 12, 2017, 22:47:29 So what were the alternatives for the Oxford Passengers? Compared to the 18.18? The 18.22 leaving 4 minutes later and arriving earlier? Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: ellendune on December 12, 2017, 22:52:30 So what were the alternatives for the Oxford Passengers? Compared to the 18.18? The 18.22 leaving 4 minutes later and arriving earlier? Actually now I look - quite a few What about Cholsey again quite a few. Seems like most stations on the route had quite a few options. Didn't check the journey times but given the number of alternatives i don't see a problem with the cancellation. I remember being on a first train out of Pad after disruption and there were considered even by FGW to be too overcrowded for it to be safe. Passengers for Reading were asked to take an alternative HST but few did so the alternative train left first. It would have been so much more effective to cancel the Reading stop so that passengers going further, who would have faced longer delays could away. Remember also that long distance passengers pay more per mile especially in the peaks. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: a-driver on December 13, 2017, 07:50:26 If I was there early enough I would have tried jumping the 1805 Frome service. Jump off at Twyford at 1826 then catch the 1837 back to Maidenhead arriving at 1844. If there wasn’t space on that I would have tried the 1815 and travel through to Reading.
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: NickB on December 13, 2017, 08:36:11 If I was there early enough I would have tried jumping the 1805 Frome service. Jump off at Twyford at 1826 then catch the 1837 back to Maidenhead arriving at 1844. If there wasn’t space on that I would have tried the 1815 and travel through to Reading. I'm sure that this has been covered elsewhere in the past, but what is the ticketing situation regarding getting on a service that clearly doesn't call at your final destination, to a further station, and then travelling back? Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: grahame on December 13, 2017, 09:27:46 I'm sure that this has been covered elsewhere in the past, but what is the ticketing situation regarding getting on a service that clearly doesn't call at your final destination, to a further station, and then travelling back? In some cases at least an easement allows this - for example Salsibury to Dilton Marsh, double back at Westbury and (I believe) Cheltenham Spa and south thereof to Bromsgrove, double back at New Street. Think you can also double back at Paddington for the Greenford branch if you're coming in longer distance? Normally not technically allowed, but would be sympathetically accepted at times of disruption to direct stopping services. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Thatcham Crossing on December 13, 2017, 12:35:19 Quote I'm sure that this has been covered elsewhere in the past, but what is the ticketing situation regarding getting on a service that clearly doesn't call at your final destination, to a further station, and then travelling back? I was recently fined by GWR for taking a Paddington to Newbury service, and changing there back to Thatcham on a Thatcham-Paddington return ticket. I protested that such routings are shown in the National Rail journey planner, but had it pointed out that in the small print it does say "you need to buy more than one ticket for this journey". By bad luck, there was a ticket check on the 3 mile journey back to Thatcham from Newbury :( and have to say I didn't appreciate being treated like a criminal for something that was a genuine misunderstanding on my part (it also wasn't the first time I had done this ;)) Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: didcotdean on December 13, 2017, 14:07:58 There is a specific negative easement in place:
700309 Circuitous Route Customers travelling via Reading to Thatcham may not travel via Newbury. This easement applies in both directions. This suggests, maybe that it was at one time permitted, or at least not otherwise barred. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: ChrisB on December 13, 2017, 14:09:11 Which is what causes the warning that 2 tickets are required to travel that way.
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Worcester_Passenger on December 13, 2017, 14:27:56 There is a specific negative easement in place: I love the concept of the "negative easement". Could this be a difficult-ment?700309 Circuitous Route Customers travelling via Reading to Thatcham may not travel via Newbury. This easement applies in both directions. This suggests, maybe that it was at one time permitted, or at least not otherwise barred. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: grahame on December 13, 2017, 16:04:27 Easement link at http://data.atoc.org/routeing-guide (section e) - updated 12.12.2017 so current verging on "breaking news". Advice is "Scroll through the list of easements to establish whether any easements apply to your journey." It explains:
Quote Routeing Guide Easements An easement which extends permission is a positive easement. An easement which narrows permission is a negative easement. Map, double-back and fare route easements are always positive. Circuitous route easements are always negative. Other kinds of easements can be positive or negative. A journey which follows a route otherwise permitted by the Routeing Guide may be forbidden by a negative easement. There are just under 130 easements that refer to doubling back (please excuse the scruffiness of my program to extract these from a 31 page .pdf! Quote Journeys from Hykeham to and via Newark Northgate or Newark Castle may double back from Lincoln. This easement applies in both directions. Journeys from Surbiton and stations west of Surbiton to Kingston upon Thames and stations north of Kingston Upon Thames, may double back between Wimbledon, Raynes Park and New Malden. This easement applies in both directions. Journeys via Todmorden, Hebden Bridge and Burnley Manchester Road may double back from Halifax. This easement applies in both directions. Customers may double back between Carnforth and Lancaster when changing between the Skipton to Lancaster and the Barrow in Furness to Lancaster lines Journeys from Ulverston and stations west of Ulverston to Roose and Dalton may double back from Barrow when the Ulverston train does not stop at those stations. This easement applies in both directions. Passengers may double back between Hebden Bridge and Halifax when changing between the Rochdale-Halifax and the Burnley-Halifax lines. This easement applies in both directions. Journeys from stations on the Barton-on-Humber line to Habrough and stations west of 000005 Manual Habrough may double back between Habrough and Grimsby. This easement applies in Journeys to Chathill from the north may change trains at Alnmouth and double back to Chathill. This easement applies in both directions. Journeys from or via Poulton-le-Fylde to Layton may double back from Blackpool North. This easement applies in both directions. Journeys from or via Manningtree to Southend Victoria, priced and marked to go via London, may double back through Shenfield. This easement applies in both directions. Journeys from Chathill, Alnmouth, Acklington, Widdrington, Pegswood, Morpeth, Cramlington and Manors to Berwick-upon-Tweed and stations in Scotland may double back from Newcastle on tickets routed "Any Permitted". This easement applies in both directions. Journeys from Rochester, Chatham, Gillingham Kent, Rainham Kent, Newington, Sittingbourne, Kemsley, Swale, Queenborough, Sheerness, Teynham, Faversham, Selling, Whitstable, Chestfield & Swalecliffe, Herne Bay, Birchington, Westgate and Margate to Sevenoaks, Bat & Ball, Shoreham Kent and Otford may double back between Bromley South and Swanley. This easement applies both ways. Journeys to Wick may double back between Thurso and Georgemas Junction. This easement applies in both directions. Journeys between Spondon and Long Eaton may double back via Derby. This easement applies in both directions. Journeys from Appleford and beyond to or via Swindon routed (00700) NOT VIA 000082 Doubleback LONDON, (00405) AP OXFORD and (00415) AP NOT VIA LONDON may double back Passengers for Aviemore and Carrbridge are permitted to alight from the sleeper at Inverness and double back to their destination in the morning. Journeys via Tamworth and Birmingham New Street may double back through Water Orton. This easement applies in both directions. Journeys from south of Droitwich Spa or north of Dudley Port may doubleback between Birmingham New street, Smethwick Rolfe Street and Smethwick Galton Bridge. This easement applies in both directions and on Saturdays and Sundays only. Journeys to North Berwick are allowed via Edinburgh even when doubleing back through Drem. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling to Kennett from the west may doubleback via Bury St Edmunds. This easement applies in both directions. Journeys from Greenford, South Greenford, Castle Bar Park, Drayton Green and West 030077 Doubleback Ealing travelling via Southall may doubleback via Ealing Broadway. This easement Journeys to Long Eaton may double back via Derby on Sundays. This easement applies in both directions. Customer travelling via Ford may doubleback via Barnham. This easement applies in both directions. Shipley to Runcorn, double back via Liverpool Lime Street. Customers travelling from Dilton Marsh to Westbury and beyond may doubleback via Warminster. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling via Liverpool South Parkway to or from Runcorn may doubleback via Liverpool Lime Street. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling from Chessington to Basingstoke may doubleback beween Wimbledon and Clapham Junction. This easement applies in both directions. to allow the doubleback Dilton Marsh to Westbury via Warminster, even though the 030154 Local fare for the doubleback through the origin/destination is higher than the overall fare. Customers travelling via Sheffield to stations on the Buxton line may doubleback between Stockport and Hazel Grove. Thius easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling via Wellingborough to or from Luton may doubleback via Luton Airport Parkway. This easement applies in both directions Customers travelling from Bournemouth and stations to the west thereof to Redbridge may doubleback via Southampton Central. This easement applies in both directions. Journeys from Dockyard to Liskeard and beyond may doubleback via Devonport. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling to or from Tyseley may doubleback from Birmingham Moor Street. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling from St Budeaux Ferry Road to Liskeard and beyond may doubleback via Plymouth. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling via Grove Park or Lea in possesion of tickets routed NOT VALID ON HS1 may doubleback via New Cross. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling from Guide Bridge to Stalybridge and beyond may doubleback via Manchester Piccadilly. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling between Chichester and Cosham may double back between Hilsea and Fratton. This easement applies in both directions. Tickets with the following route codes may be used to double back between Clapham Junction and London Waterloo. (Any Permitted, London, London Not Underground, Not Valid on HS1, AP London Woking) Customers travelling via Grove Park or Lee possesion of tickets routed NOT VALID ON HS1 may doubleback via Hither Green. This easement applies in both directions. Customers may double back between Smethwick Galton Bridge and Birmingham New Street when travelling on long distance services via Droitwich Spa. Tickets with the following route codes may be used to double back between Clapham 700013 Doubleback Junction and London Victoria. (London, London Not Underground, Not Valid on HS1, AP Tickets with the following route codes may be used to double back between New Cross and London Bridge (Any Permitted, Not Valid on HS1) Journeys from Worcester Stations to Hartlebury may double back via Kidderminster. This easement applies in both directions. Customers may double back when travelling between Cheadle Hulme and Stockport Customers may double back between Canley and Coventry. Customers travelling from stations North of Cheshunt via Cambridge and Hitchin to 700070 Doubleback stations North of Hitchin may double back between Hitchin and Stevenage. This Customers travelling from Drumgelloch, Airdrie, Coatdyke, Coatbridge Sunnyside, 700077 Doubleback Blairhill, Easterhouse, Garrowhill, Shettleston and Carntyne to Springburn may travel Customers travelling via Yate to Stonehouse or Stroud in possession of tickets routed 700086 Doubleback 'Any Permitted' may double back between Gloucester and Cheltenham Spa. This Customers in possession of tickets routed "Any Permitted" may double back between Gloucester and Cheltenham Spa. Customers travelling from Dore via Chinley may double back via Sheffield. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling via Audley End to Stansted Airport amy double back between Stansted Mountfitchet and Bishops Stortford. This easement applies in both directions Allow a doubleback between Bournville and University for journeys between Bournville and Worcester Stations Customers travelling from, to or via Truro to St Ives, Carbis Bay, Lelant and Lelant 700221 Doubleback Saltings may double back between St Erth and Penzance. This easement applies in Customers travelling from/to/via Runcorn via Warrington Bank Quay may double back between Acton Bridge and Crewe. This easement applies in both directions Customers travelling from/to/via Bristol Parkway via Chepstow may double back between Severn Tunnel Junction and Newport. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling via Carstairs to Uddingston, Bellshill, Blantyre, Hamilton West, Hamilton Central, Airbles, Chatelherault, Merryton and Larkhall may double back between Glasgow Central and Newton Lanark. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling via Lockerbie to Carstairs may double back via Glasgow Central. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling from or via Pevensey & Westham to Polegate and beyond may double back between Hampden Park and Eastbourne. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling from Ore to Three Oaks, Doleham, Winchelsea, Rye, Appledore, Ham Street, Ashford International and beyond may double back via Hastings. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling via Carstairs to Uddingston, Bellshill, Holytown and beyond in possession of tickets routed "Any Permitted" may double back between Newton and Glasgow Central. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling from/to/via Bristol Temple Meads via Chepstow may double back 700232 Doubleback between Severn Tunnel Junction and Newport. This easement applies in both Customers travelling via Carstairs to Motherwell, Shieldmuir, Wishaw, Carluke or Lanark 700245 Doubleback may double back between Glasgow Central and Motherwell. This easement applies in Customers travelling from or via Bury St Edmunds to Norwich and beyond may double back between Stowmarket and Ipswich. This easement applies in both directions Customers travelling from Felixstowe, Trimley, Derby Road and Westerfield to Woodbridge, Melton, Wickham Market, Saxmundham, Darsham, Halesworth, Brampton, Beccles, Oulton Broad South and Lowestoft may double back between Westerfield and Ipswich. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling from Havenhouse to Wainfleet and beyond may double back via Skegness. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling from Heathrow Terminals 1-3, Heathrow Terminal 4 or Heathrow Terminal 5 to West Drayton, Iver or Langley may double back between Southall and London Paddington. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling from Dullingham to Cambridge and beyond may double back via Newmarket. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling from Heathrow Terminal 1-3, Heathrow Terminal 4 and Heathrow 700272 Doubleback Terminal 5 via Slough in possession of tickets routed "Any Permitted" may double back Customers travelling from Arundel, Amberley, Pulborough, Billingshurst, Christs Hospital, Horsham, Littlehaven and Faygate via Crawley to Haywards Heath and beyond may double back between Three Bridges and Gatwick Airport. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling from Hunts Cross via Warrington Central and Wigan North 700289 Doubleback Western may double back via Liverpool South Parkway. This easement applies in both Customers travelling via Southampton Airport Parkway to Bitterne, Woolston, Sholing, Netley, Hamble, Bursledon, Swanwick, Fareham and beyond may double back between St Denys and Southampton Central. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling via Seven Tunnel Junction to Bromsgrove may double back via University. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling via Stalybridge to Hyde North, Hyde Central, Woodley, Rose Hill Marple and via Romiley may double back between Guide Bridge and Manchester Piccadilly. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling from Norton Bridge via Crewe may double back via Stafford. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling from Brentwood to Stratford (London) or beyond may double back via Shenfield. They may not leave the station. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling via Liverpool South Parkway to Edge Hill may double back via Liverpool Lime Street. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling from Tattenham Corner, Tadworth, Kingswood, Chipstead, 700321 Doubleback Woodmansterne, Coulsdon South and Reedham to Redhill and beyond may double Customers travelling from or via Cheltenham Spa to Barnt Green may double back via University (Birmingham). This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling from Glossop, Hadfield, Dinting, Broadbottom, Hattersley, Godley, Newton for Hyde and Flowery Field to Stalybridge and beyond may double back between Guide Bridge and Manchester Piccadilly. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling via Yate to Bromsgrove in possession of tickets routed "Any 700351 Doubleback Permitted" may double back via Birmingham New Street. This easement applies in both Customers travelling from Hitchin to Peterborough in possession of tickets routed "Not via London" may double back via Stevenage. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling from Newbury via Bedwyn may double back via Reading. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling from Hitchin via Peterborough in possession of tickets routed 700379 Doubleback either "Not via London" or "Peterborough & EC" may double back via Stevenage. This Customers travelling from Harling Road, Eccles Road or Spooner Row to Ely and beyond may double back via Norwich. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling from Llanfairfechan, Penmaenmawr and Conwy via Bangor may double back via Llandudno Junction. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling from or via Bromsgrove to Alvechurch and Redditch in posession of tickets routed (00000) ANY PERMITTED, (00439) XC & CONNECTIONS, (00817) VIA BRISTOL may double back between Barnt Green and Birmingham New Street. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling from or via Motspur Park to Surbiton and beyond in possession of tixkets routed "not via London" may double back between Raynes Park and Wimbledon. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling from or via Leamington Spa to Claverdon, Bearley, Wilmcote, Stratford Parkway or Stratford Upon Avon may double back between Hatton, Lapworth, Dorridge, Widney Manor and Solihull. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling from or via Mitcham Junction to Streatham Common and beyond in possession of tickets routed "Not via London" may double back between Balham, Wandsworth Common and Clapham Junction. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling from Taunton to Castle Cary in possession of tickets routed "via Westbury" may double back between Castle Cary and Westbury. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling from Northampton to or via Stafford in possession of tickets 700438 Doubleback routed "Any Permitted may double back via Milton Keynes. This easement applies in Customers travelling from or via Bromsgrove to Alvechurch or Redditch in possession 700445 Doubleback of tickets routed "Not Via Birmingham" may double back between Barnt Green and Customers travelling from Buxton, Dove Holes, Chapel en le Frith, Whaley Bridge, Furness Vale, New Mills Newtown, Disley, Middlewood and Hazel Grove to Sheffield and beyond in possession of tickets routed "Any Permitted" may double back between Hazel Grove and Stockport. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling from Epsom to Redhill and beyond in possession of tickets routed 700449 Doubleback "Not via London" may double back between Balham and Clapham Junction. This Customers travelling from or via Surbiton to Motspur Park and beyond in possession of tickets routed "not via London"or "Any Permitted may double back between Raynes Park, Wimbledon, Earlsfield and Clapham Junction. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling from or via Haywards Heath to Crawley, Ifield, Faygate and beyond in possession of tickets routed "Not Clapham Junction" or "via Horsham" may double back between Three Bridges and Gatwick Airport. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling from or via Chinley, New Mills Central, Strines, Marple, Rose Hill Marple, Romiley, Bredbury, Brinnington, Reddish North, Ryder Brow or Belle Vue to Guide Bridge and beyond may double back between Ashburys and Manchester Piccadilly. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling via Surbiton to or via New Malden in possession of tickets routed 700462 Doubleback "Honiton not London" may double back between New Malden, Raynes Park, Customers travelling via Worcester Stations to Longbridge and Barnt Green in 700473 Doubleback possession of tickets routed "Any Permitted" may double back via Birmingham New Customers travelling via Worcester Stations to Longbridge and Barnt Green in possession of tickets routed "Not via Birmingham" may double back via University Station. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling via Berwick Upon Tweed to stations Musselburgh, Wallyford, Prestonpans, Longniddry, Drem, North Berwick and Dunbar in possession of tickets routed "Any Permitted" or "EC & Connections" may double back via Edinburgh. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling from Preston Park, Hassocks or Burgess Hill to Lewes and beyond may double back between Wivelsfield and Haywards Heath. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling from Oxenholme or Kendal to Staveley or Burneside may double back via Windermere. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling from Great Yarmouth and Berney Arms to Lowestoft may double 700492 Doubleback back between Reedham, Cantley, Buckenham and Brundall. This easement applies in Customers travelling from Barnsley, Wombwell, Elsecar and Chapletown to or via 700507 Doubleback Doncaster may double back between Meadowhall and Sheffield. This easement applies Passengers travelling from or via Peterborough to Hitchin may doubleback at Stevenage. This easement applies in both directions This positive Doubleback easement has been published to allow customers travelling from North Wales and Chester to Scotland via Manchester and onward on First TransPennine Express (FTPE) services to travel to Manchester via Eccles. FTPE services are also routed through Eccles. This easement will allow interchange at Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Oxford Road. This easement applies in both directions This Positive Doubleback easement will allow Journey Planners to show itineraries between Chester/Hooton and Sandhills (a station within the G18 Liverpool Routeing 700571 Doubleback Group), where the journey from the Origin station travels through Moorfields to Liverpool Central and then doublebacks through Moorfields on the second leg of the journey to the Destination station. This easement applies in both directions. Customers from Colne, Nelson, Briefield, Burnley Central, Burnley Barracks, Rose Grove, Hapton and Huncoat travelling to or via Burnley Manchester Road may doubleback between Accrington and Rose Grove. This positive doubleback easement operates in both directions To allow journeys between Eaglescliff and York using tickets on fare route 00099 Not 700590 Doubleback Via Darlington to Doubleback at Thornaby. This positive doubleback easement will For journeys from or via Goole to destinations on the route between Doncaster, Scunthorpe and Cleethorpes may doubleback through Hatfield & Stainforth. This positive doubleback easement applies in both directions. From 07 August 2016 customers travelling from Bromsgrove to Cheltenham Spa on route (00000) ANY PERMITTED may doubleback at University Birmingham station. this positive doubleback easement applies in both directions 700600 Local doubleback between Islip and Oxford Parkway. This positive local easement applies in Journeys from Hersham and Esher to Dorking via Wimbledon are not being shown in Journey planners due to a double back. This positive Doubleback Easement will allow travel via Wimbledon and Raynes Park for tickets priced on Fare Route VIA EPSOM (00718). This easement will apply in both directions. To ensure journey opportunities to Denham Golf Club from Wembley Stadium, Sudbury & Harrow Road, Sudbury Hill (Harrow), Northolt Park, South Ruislip and West Ruislip are retained when timetables change on the 15 May 2016, this Positive Local easement will allow journeys to doubleback at Gerrards Cross. Easement 000065 is a local easement that allows journeys from Chathill, Alnmouth, Acklington, Widdrington, Pegswood, Morpeth, Cramlington and Manors to Berwick- upon-Tweed and stations in Scotland may double back from Newcastle on tickets routed "Any Permitted". This routeing point easement will override NFM64 fares checking at Newcastle and applies in both directions. From 02 to 15 September, and the weekends of the 04/5 and 11/12 November 2017 during engineering diversions via Newport South Wales (with journeys travelling through Severn Tunnel Junction twice). This doubleback easement will apply in both directions. Customers travelling to Cambridge North, from Waterbeach, Ely, Littleport, Downham 700713 Doubleback Market, Watlington and Kings Lynn are permitted to doubleback via Cambridge. This positive doubleback easement applies in both directions Journeys via Bath or Chippenham to Dean or Dunbridge may not double back from Romsey. This probibition applies in both directions. Circuitous Route Journeys to or from Horley via Redhill may not doubleback via Gatwick Airport. This easement applies in both directions. Circuitous Route Customers traveliing to our from Flixton via Birchwood may not doubleback via Urmston. This easement applies in both directions. Circuitous Route Customers travelling from Burnham via Maidenhead may not double back via Slough. This easement applies in both directions. Circuitous Route Journeys to or from Leyland via Chorley OR Wigan North Western may not doubleback via Preston. This easement applies in both directions. Customers travelling from Deighton via Mirfield may not double back via Huddersfield. This easement applies in both directions. Circuitous Route Customers travelling via Gillingham to Chestfield and Swalecliffe may not double back via Herne Bay. This easement applies in both directions. Journeys from or via London Kings Cross to Morpeth are not permitted to doubleback at Alnmouth. This negative doubleback easement applies in both directions. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: didcotdean on December 13, 2017, 16:40:13 I love the concept of the "negative easement". Could this be a difficult-ment? Something like 'curtailment' perhaps ...Graeme lists the 'doubling back' ones, but Circuitous Routes is a similar category. My favourite there is Quote Customers travelling from Appleford to Didcot Parkway and beyond in possession of tickets routed either "Any Permitted" or "Great Western Only" may not travel via Culham. This easement applies in both directions. There are precious few trains that stop at both Appleford and Culham for this to be an issue surely.Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: TaplowGreen on December 13, 2017, 16:44:03 There is a specific negative easement in place: I love the concept of the "negative easement". Could this be a difficult-ment?700309 Circuitous Route Customers travelling via Reading to Thatcham may not travel via Newbury. This easement applies in both directions. This suggests, maybe that it was at one time permitted, or at least not otherwise barred. Negative easement.......the fruitless efforts of one suffering from chronic constipation?..............or alternatively for those more successful in their efforts "How much longer will you be? Are you reading a newspaper in there?" "Negative.Easement" Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Worcester_Passenger on December 13, 2017, 16:56:29 Some of the ones in the long list are rather special.
Quote Journeys to Chathill from the north may change trains at Alnmouth and double back to Chathill. This easement applies in both directions. The idea that one could get to Chathill from the north direct dates back by quite a long time. Quote Journeys to Wick may double back between Thurso and Georgemas Junction. This easement applies in both directions. This is a very generous concession : it's the way the train goes. Isn't there something in the Routeing Guide that says that direct trains trump everything else? Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: grahame on December 13, 2017, 17:21:19 Quote Journeys to Wick may double back between Thurso and Georgemas Junction. This easement applies in both directions. This is a very generous concession : it's the way the train goes. Isn't there something in the Routeing Guide that says that direct trains trump everything else? I think it trumps everything else except where it doesn't. Aren't there issues on the Fife circle. Agreed that "double back via Thurso" is generous. Can you imaging turfing passengers out at Georgemas to have them get back on quarter of an hour later! Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: IndustryInsider on December 13, 2017, 17:41:54 The 18.42 never arrives on time and has been running an average of 7.5mins late for the past month - often 15 to 20 mins late. If I arrive at Paddington at 18.00 or thereabouts to catch the 18.18 then extending my journey by a further 20, 30 or 40mins is not acceptable in my opinion. A very poor performer, though it has been on time on three occasions in the last two months! I am expecting performance of Maidenhead (both stoppers and semi-fasts) trains to improve somewhat after the electric service to Didcot is launched in a few weeks. Currently there is great pressure on the layout at Maidenhead, even though it has been improved to be much more flexible than it was. Trains terminating and shunting the the turnback siding or stabling sidings, and the number of balancing ECS moves will reduce very significantly. There are currently a total of 16 trains that use the turnback and a total of 21 daily moves into and out of the stabling sidings. That reduces to 2 and 7 respectively from January, and the number of trains turning back in service in the platforms also decreases. That should mean much less waiting for platforms. Coupled with the significant improvements to the service, especially on the return from Paddington in the evening and I'm optimistic you'll be a more content commuter next year, NickB! Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: NickB on December 13, 2017, 17:53:10 I am buoyed by your assurances II !!!
;D Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: lordgoata on December 14, 2017, 09:49:28 Currently there is great pressure on the layout at Maidenhead, even though it has been improved to be much more flexible than it was. Trains terminating and shunting the the turnback siding or stabling sidings, and the number of balancing ECS moves will reduce very significantly. There are currently a total of 16 trains that use the turnback and a total of 21 daily moves into and out of the stabling sidings. That reduces to 2 and 7 respectively from January, and the number of trains turning back in service in the platforms also decreases. That should mean much less waiting for platforms. Coupled with the significant improvements to the service, especially on the return from Paddington in the evening and I'm optimistic you'll be a more content commuter next year, NickB! Its actually quite interesting at Maidenhead now - you get freight flying through platform 5, local stoppers calling at platform 1, trains from London pulling into platform 4. It's not exactly fun not knowing which platform you might need to be on, or end up at; but it certainly shows the flexibility! Earlier this week there were at least 2 Oxford/Banbury stoppers that had last minute changes to Platform 1 (I missed both of them as I wasn't willing to run down the stairs and up the otherside with all the slippery steps and underpass), while the electric services sat in platforms 3 and 4. This morning I arrived on platform 5 rather than the usual platform 4 - and as the doors opened there was an electric service pulling into platform 4. Not sure who crossed in front of who, but it must have been timed like clockwork as both trains were seemingly moving into the platforms together! Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: TaplowGreen on December 14, 2017, 16:50:22 The 18.18 Paddington to Oxford is former of 3 rather than 6 coaches this evening due to a broken down train. Sadly no surprise there but what did interest me is that Maidenhead (first calling point) has been struck from the list. All other stations will be served as normal. As anyone familiar with this service will attest, it is the busiest service for Maidenhead passengers of the evening peak. Perhaps 80% of passengers disembark there and it is always full and standing. Has this train had Maidenhead struck from its calling points in order to avoid the overcrowding that would ensue on the remaining 3 coaches? If so that is bad form in my opinion. Cancelled completely tonight......... 18:18 London Paddington to Oxford due 19:45 will be cancelled. This is due to a shortage of train crew. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: NickB on December 14, 2017, 17:24:25 They’ve also cancelled all of the subsequent xx:18 services all the way until close. So that is all of the late night services to Oxford cancelled. On what is possibly peak ‘office Christmas party’ night.
Merry Christmas. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: TaplowGreen on December 14, 2017, 17:33:41 They’ve also cancelled all of the subsequent xx:18 services all the way until close. So that is all of the late night services to Oxford cancelled. On what is possibly peak ‘office Christmas party’ night. Merry Christmas. Maybe it's peak GWR Christmas party night? Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: NickB on December 14, 2017, 20:21:21 Maybe it's peak GWR Christmas party night? [/quote] Everynight is GWR party night! 😋 Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: TaplowGreen on December 14, 2017, 20:24:43 This won't help either......one of the brand new trains?
Alterations to services at London Paddington Due to a broken down train at London Paddington some lines are blocked. Train services running to and from this station may be delayed or revised. Disruption is expected until 21:00 14/12. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: ray951 on December 14, 2017, 21:15:39 I am not convinced that GWR know what they are doing anymore.
Tonight the train forming the 1707 Oxford to Paddington came into Oxford station everybody got on and we then sat there for a few minutes as 1707 came and went. Eventually a member of staff came on-board and announced that everybody should get off as the train was now cancelled due to a shortage of drivers. The train was also short formed being 2 carriages rather than the normal 3. Surely GWR must know whether there is a driver available before they allow passengers on board and of course blocking platform 3 at Oxford has a knock on effect to all following trains with it being the only platform that UP trains can leave towards Paddington. Eventually a driver turned up to take the set back to the siding and we all had to wait for the 1737 which was also delayed. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: IndustryInsider on December 14, 2017, 21:26:35 That’s what happens when you get rid of key operational staff like the ones that were removed from Oxford earlier in the year. The good news is that those staff are being reinstated within the next month or so after several service meltdowns have prompted management to realise that actuallly they were costing the company more by not having them there!
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: IndustryInsider on December 14, 2017, 21:32:32 This won't help either......one of the brand new trains? Yes, a brake fault on the 19:30 PAD-WSM shortly after leaving Paddington. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: TaplowGreen on December 19, 2017, 19:26:45 Eh? ???
25 London Paddington to Oxford due 20:28 18:25 London Paddington to Oxford due 20:28 will no longer call at Burnham, Taplow, Maidenhead and Twyford. It has been delayed between London Paddington and Hayes & Harlington and is now 19 minutes late. This is due to more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Adelante_CCT on December 19, 2017, 20:35:13 Terminated at Slough
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: 1st fan on December 19, 2017, 21:23:18 Eh? ??? Seems like the excuse generator needs a kick. 25 London Paddington to Oxford due 20:28 18:25 London Paddington to Oxford due 20:28 will no longer call at Burnham, Taplow, Maidenhead and Twyford. It has been delayed between London Paddington and Hayes & Harlington and is now 19 minutes late. This is due to more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: trainer on December 19, 2017, 22:40:49 Seems like the excuse generator needs a kick. Is that like Premium Bond ERNIE? Excuses Randomly kNocked out In Emergency. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on December 20, 2017, 09:50:01 That’s what happens when you get rid of key operational staff like the ones that were removed from Oxford earlier in the year. The good news is that those staff are being reinstated within the next month or so after several service meltdowns have prompted management to realise that actuallly they were costing the company more by not having them there! The sheer managerial incompetence in removing these posts in the first place, without realisng the benefits they brought in keeping the service going, is disappointing and depressing. May also be relevant to Driver shortage. Qualified Drivers can move between TOC’s, and obviously will move to where their working environment is better. How many would want to join GWR? Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: IndustryInsider on December 20, 2017, 10:21:28 That’s what happens when you get rid of key operational staff like the ones that were removed from Oxford earlier in the year. The good news is that those staff are being reinstated within the next month or so after several service meltdowns have prompted management to realise that actuallly they were costing the company more by not having them there! The sheer managerial incompetence in removing these posts in the first place, without realisng the benefits they brought in keeping the service going, is disappointing and depressing.Happens a lot unfortunately. Managers come in from outside the industry and are keen to create an impression and 'modernise' the railway. Those that set the budgets continue to demand savings from their departments. Inexperienced managers see large headline salary savings of £+100k a year, but don't properly consider exactly why a given job has existed for over a hundred years. Pleas from local staff (including local management) get ignored. Decisions are made without realising they create a false economy. Passengers and staff then suffer the consequences before it is eventually realised that the job is necessary and so it gets reinstated, often after the original manager has moved on. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Timmer on December 20, 2017, 11:28:54 Happens a lot unfortunately. Managers come in from outside the industry and are keen to create an impression and 'modernise' the railway. Those that set the budgets continue to demand savings from their departments. Inexperienced managers see large headline salary savings of £+100k a year, but don't properly consider exactly why a given job has existed for over a hundred years. Pleas from local staff (including local management) get ignored. Decisions are made without realising they create a false economy. Passengers and staff then suffer the consequences before it is eventually realised that the job is necessary and so it gets reinstated, often after the original manager has moved on. The disappointing thing is Mark Hopwood being a railway man should know this and not allow it to happen.Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: ChrisB on December 20, 2017, 17:05:55 I doubt decisions like those under discussion ever reach his desk....
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: IndustryInsider on December 20, 2017, 17:28:27 Many similar ones might not, but I can assure you that particular one did!
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Timmer on December 20, 2017, 18:56:25 I doubt decisions like those under discussion ever reach his desk.... Well they should as should many others that let the company he manages down.Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: ChrisB on December 20, 2017, 20:39:23 That's what you delegate to other Directors.
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: TaplowGreen on December 20, 2017, 21:35:38 That's what you delegate to other Directors. The one thing you can't delegate is accountability. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Timmer on December 20, 2017, 21:58:19 The one thing you can't delegate is accountability. And there’s precious little of that in the management of the rail industry/Dft.Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: TaplowGreen on December 21, 2017, 06:11:28 The one thing you can't delegate is accountability. And there’s precious little of that in the management of the rail industry/Dft.Well DfT Ministers are accountable to Parliament, and the electorate every few years.........as for Hopwood et al, first and foremost they answer to their Boards - very different set of dynamics and priorities. It would be refreshing to see the likes of Hopwood dragged in front of a select committee and held to account for his organisation's poor performance..........but I guess they'd have to find him first!!! Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: 1st fan on January 02, 2018, 11:29:25 I did laugh at this update from JourneyCheck today:
Quote 14:00 London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads due 15:41 (my emphases)Facilities on the 14:00 London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads due 15:41. This is due to more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time. This train will now be formed of the usual number of coaches. Same on the 10:29 from Swansea. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: a-driver on January 02, 2018, 11:52:51 It would be refreshing to see the likes of Hopwood dragged in front of a select committee and held to account for his organisation's poor performance..........but I guess they'd have to find him first!!! The like of Hopwood will never be bought in front a select committee because it will publically highlight just how much control the DfT have over the Rail franchises. That’s why they have clauses in the contract that they can’t publically berate the DfT or the NR..... in fact, that same clause has recently been added to the staff social medial policy as well. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: ChrisB on January 02, 2018, 11:57:51 Hmmm, possibly unfair contract term, assuming staff don't identify themselves as GWR staff in their handles. Freedom of Speech will trump that term.
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: phile on January 02, 2018, 12:22:48 It would be refreshing to see the likes of Hopwood dragged in front of a select committee and held to account for his organisation's poor performance..........but I guess they'd have to find him first!!! The like of Hopwood will never be bought in front a select committee because it will publically highlight just how much control the DfT have over the Rail franchises. That’s why they have clauses in the contract that they can’t publically berate the DfT or the NR..... in fact, that same clause has recently been added to the staff social medial policy as well. The TOCs are left to take the flak for DFT and NR failings. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Timmer on January 02, 2018, 12:24:28 The TOCs are left to take the flak for DFT and NR failings. And some would say they get well paid for doing so :)Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: 1st fan on January 02, 2018, 14:06:33 It would be refreshing to see the likes of Hopwood dragged in front of a select committee and held to account for his organisation's poor performance..........but I guess they'd have to find him first!!! The like of Hopwood will never be bought in front a select committee because it will publically highlight just how much control the DfT have over the Rail franchises. That’s why they have clauses in the contract that they can’t publically berate the DfT or the NR..... in fact, that same clause has recently been added to the staff social medial policy as well. Well it wasn't on social media but I did talk to a GWR staff member last year about the IEP. They said that the DFT had in the last decade started to micromanage the franchises. This more often than not didn't really work very well and often ended up costing more as a result. (this was before the Virgin/Stagecoach bailout) They were pretty outspoken about how screwed the rail transport in this country was becoming as a result. They said if the DFT want to do this then they should just bite the bullet and renationalise the railways. Won't do that though because the franchisees and Network Rail are useful for taking the blame when something goes wrong. Whatever happens, it is never the fault of the DFT! Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Sixty3Closure on January 02, 2018, 15:33:27 Hmmm, possibly unfair contract term, assuming staff don't identify themselves as GWR staff in their handles. Freedom of Speech will trump that term. We don;t really have 'freedom of speech' as a right in this country unlike say the States. Most staff will have clauses in their contract about bringing the company into disrepute and there's been plenty of examples of staff being fired/disciplined for comments made on personal accounts. Where I work which is pretty light touch about these things we're still reminded about our 'responsibilities'. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Tim on January 02, 2018, 15:44:08 Hmmm, possibly unfair contract term, assuming staff don't identify themselves as GWR staff in their handles. Freedom of Speech will trump that term. We don;t really have 'freedom of speech' as a right in this country unlike say the States. Most staff will have clauses in their contract about bringing the company into disrepute and there's been plenty of examples of staff being fired/disciplined for comments made on personal accounts. Where I work which is pretty light touch about these things we're still reminded about our 'responsibilities'. Freedom of speech is not always the same as consequence-free speech. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: stuving on January 15, 2018, 21:17:27 Recent full franchises include performance payments for Short Formation (and older ones something similar), but the current franchise agreement for GW does not. That may be because of its "coping with the upheavals" nature, though I don't have the previous one for comparison. If you're wondering what you've been missing...
The measure used is the percentage of trains shorter than specified, by any amount. There are let-outs for force majeure and other good excuses, as well as a back-up right for the SoS to write a note to teacher. That measure obviously depends on all trains in the required service having specified lengths, which isn't the case for GWR. The only stated capacity requirement is on total peak seats into or out of Paddington. For each period the measure is compared, as a moving annual average, with breach and default levels. if it exceeds these it may trigger warning notices and demands for action plans and the like - but not franchise payments. Annually, the year's average is used to compute a "performance sum". This is the same for each performance measure, based on cap, target, and floor levels that get tighter over the franchise. However, for short formation the target is zero. That makes the computation simpler, and also removes the bonus payment for beating the target (this does apply to minutes delay, cancellations and serious lateness, customer surveys, etc, etc). The basic method each time is to multiply the actual (capped and floored) minus the target by a sum of money adjusted for RPI. This is less simple than it sounds, for a start because the measures are all figures of demerit, so the cap is small and thee floor large!. But, allowing for signs, you get a bonus that the DfT pays to the TOC or a "penalty". The TOC does not pay that to the DFT (except in the last year), instead it has to spend the money making things better. Pasting bits together, the TOC must spend "in order to secure ... an improvement in the Franchisee's performance against the Annual Short Formation Benchmark so that such level is equal to the Annual Target Performance Level for the Annual Short Formation Benchmark ... or, in each case, as the Secretary of State may otherwise direct". That comes from the East Anglia franchise, chosen as the most similar to GW. In that case the basic sum of money changes at an "intermediate level", but the target is still zero. However, the actual amounts are suppressed. In the draft SW agreement (with the ITT) the suggested amounts are there, though they may have been changed in the bidding process. The agreed agreement is not yet public. The figures in those two are:
And that amount for SWR ... it's £1,000,000. So the most they can be paid or have to spend in a year is £15,000. Not to be used or buying new carriages, obviously - though of course fixing/replacing ones that don't work is the ROSCO's responsibility. Note that some other measures have higher amounts, up to £20M for cancellations. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: IndustryInsider on January 15, 2018, 22:27:28 I tell you what, Stuving. When you look into something, nobody could ever accuse you of not being thorough! ;)
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: hassaanhc on April 30, 2018, 16:55:09 Quote 17:59 London Paddington to Reading due 19:00 Facilities on the 17:59 London Paddington to Reading due 19:00. This is due to more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time. Will be formed of 3 coaches instead of 5. Last Updated:30/04/2018 14:39 This is a key evening peak stopping service from Paddington. It is bad enough that GWR have decided to reduce it from 8 coaches to 5, and now today it is 3 coaches (we'll ignore it being DMU instead of EMU as I'm not bothered about that side of things). I'm pretty sure GWR claimed that all evening peak stopping services would have more capacity from January 2018? No wonder the normal travelling public don't believe a word of what GWR say. If it was at the beginning or end of the peak it wouldn't be as much issue. But this is slap bang in the middle of the evening peak, around the time that loads of those coming from Canary Wharf or the City will have reached Paddington or Ealing Broadway. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Sixty3Closure on April 30, 2018, 19:06:59 The 06.53 from Twyford to Paddington was 3 coaches this morning. I think its about the 07.01 from Maidenhead and its normally standing room only by then with the normal 6 coaches. I passed and got a later, slower train.
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Sixty3Closure on May 02, 2018, 08:45:17 06.53 from Twyford cancelled this morning although no indication why. The subsequent overcrowding on the next semi-fast service really does highlight how little slack there is in the system despite all the new trains.
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: grahame on May 03, 2018, 05:47:14 Lots like this today ...
Quote 17:30 London Paddington to Taunton due 20:31 Facilities on the 17:30 London Paddington to Taunton due 20:31. Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 10. Further Information Short formation due to alterations yesterday which prevented trains ending yesterday at the correct depot last night for today's service. Last Updated:03/05/2018 05:10 Three diagrams running as 5 cars not 10 all day? No leeway in servicing trains if they come back into wrong depot? ("That's not one of OURS - we're not touching it?" or lack of capacity?) No way of catching up during the day? Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: TaplowGreen on May 03, 2018, 06:45:14 Here's an example of all that extra capacity in action........
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: lordgoata on May 03, 2018, 22:43:00 The 1740 from Maidenhead to Oxford was a 5 car turbo tonight, rather than 6 car like usual. I think they maybe dragged it back from the scrap heap - the CIS was informing passengers travelling over Christmas of works being done at Reading (I think) and Cardiff, informing us to visit gwr.com/christmas2016 for info!
As I was leaving the train I noticed one of the adverts by the door was for something Christmas related too! All very odd! Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: broadgage on May 03, 2018, 23:21:40 Obviously, this was accidently released from the top secret hidden reserve in Box tunnel, without being prepared for service.
This USED to contain a hidden reserve of steamers, for use in case of war or national disaster. Steamers are now less useful in an emergency as few railway depots have coaling or watering facilities, and fewer staff are familiar with steam. It now contains a hidden reserve of turbos, TWO units each bear the same number, one in use and one in the secret store. They are secretly swapped over every couple of years, and are MEANT to be checked for things like out of date adverts and messages. Google "secret strategic reserve locos" for more details, though most of the results will refer to steam and not to slightly more modern DMUs. HSTs are also stored, some years ago a c0ck up occurred and BOTH trains with same number were accidently put into traffic at the same time, and photographed next to each other ! The government tried to keep it secret, but the picture was published ! :-X :) :) :) Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: paul7575 on May 04, 2018, 00:03:00 I expect there is also a Government controlled secret underground store where they keep all the space, legroom, and tables not fitted to modern units... ???
Paul Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: grahame on May 04, 2018, 00:05:21 I expect there is also a Government controlled secret underground store where they keep all the space, legroom, and tables not fitted to modern units... ??? Paul What's the collective name for a group of buffet cars?? Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Western Pathfinder on May 04, 2018, 00:22:34 A Banquet?.
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Jason on May 04, 2018, 13:55:38 A buffoon ?
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: ChrisB on May 04, 2018, 15:35:49 Lots like this today ... Quote 17:30 London Paddington to Taunton due 20:31 Facilities on the 17:30 London Paddington to Taunton due 20:31. Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 10. Further Information Short formation due to alterations yesterday which prevented trains ending yesterday at the correct depot last night for today's service. Last Updated:03/05/2018 05:10 Three diagrams running as 5 cars not 10 all day? No leeway in servicing trains if they come back into wrong depot? ("That's not one of OURS - we're not touching it?" or lack of capacity?) No way of catching up during the day? Those IETs beling to Hitachi, don't you forget. Only servicable by them & likely have to be joined at specified locations.... Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: broadgage on June 19, 2018, 12:21:40 The ongoing IET fiasco is being discussed in more detail elsewhere on these forums, but meanwhile and perhaps eclipsed by the IETs, short formations on the West country branch lines and secondary routes seem to be getting worse.
Very poor indeed with the holiday season now underway. Most days feature several dozen short formations, and also significant numbers of part cancellations. Was not the idea to move to the West significant numbers of Turbos from the Thames valley routes, these being displaced by the new EMUs. So what has gone wrong ? new EMUs not yet working in sufficient numbers to release enough Turbos ? Or the Turbos have been transferred but are not working reliably or in sufficient numbers ? Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: grahame on June 19, 2018, 13:09:45 So what has gone wrong ? * New EMUs not yet working in sufficient numbers to release enough Turbos ? * Or the Turbos have been transferred but are not working reliably or in sufficient numbers ? I suspect multiple reasons coming together a bit of each of those, and I would also speculate additionally on * more turbos that planned on Oxford / North Cotswold services at present than were planned. (HST and 802 paths) * delay in Castle program - there should be 4 or 5 of them around by now, I think? Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: JayMac on June 30, 2018, 13:51:55 Cancellations today between Bristol and Portsmouth Harbour due to 'more trains than usual needing repairs'.
Seems that its just one diagram affected. So all that was needed to prevent this happening was one additional DMU being available for traffic. So what the hell are GWR doing hiring out a Class 158 to Arriva Trains Wales today? Madness. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: phile on June 30, 2018, 20:01:12 Cancellations today between Bristol and Portsmouth Harbour due to 'more trains than usual needing repairs'. Seems that its just one diagram affected. So all that was needed to prevent this happening was one additional DMU being available for traffic. So what the hell are GWR doing hiring out a Class 158 to Arriva Trains Wales today? Madness. It was trapped at Canton due to Engineering Work Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: JayMac on June 30, 2018, 23:00:37 Not trapped at all. The line through Chepstow was open yesterday and this morning. Then there's cause and effect. Being 'trapped' didn't lead to the spot hire. A lack of will and seeing the £££ signs for a spot hire are far more likely reasons for GWR. With a misplaced hope that they would be able to wing it with the already stretched stock they had in Bristol.
If route knowledge was an issue (it wasn't last Friday when a GWR DMU was 'rescued' from Canton) then it wouldn't have been too much effort to arrange with ATW to rescue the set to Gloucester, either ECS or attached to a service train. But no. GWR would rather help another TOCs passengers than ensure their own aren't inconvenienced. Tells you all you need to know about current GWR thinking. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: a-driver on July 01, 2018, 08:08:42 Not trapped at all. The line through Chepstow was open yesterday and this morning. Then there's cause and effect. Being 'trapped' didn't lead to the spot hire. A lack of will and seeing the £££ signs for a spot hire are far more likely reasons for GWR. With a misplaced hope that they would be able to wing it with the already stretched stock they had in Bristol. If route knowledge was an issue (it wasn't last Friday when a GWR DMU was 'rescued' from Canton) then it wouldn't have been too much effort to arrange with ATW to rescue the set to Gloucester, either ECS or attached to a service train. But no. GWR would rather help another TOCs passengers than ensure their own aren't inconvenienced. Tells you all you need to know about current GWR thinking. It’s not that simple. If the unit is left on Canton depot ATW will charge GWR for stabling on depot. It might be the case those charges will be waived and ATW will carry out an exam on the unit so no £££ may have changed hands. There’s also a very limited number of paths available to get the unit back to Bristol..... plus they’ll also need to return the unit back to Canton. I don’t know whether GWR drivers sign Canton so it may require a ATW driver to prepare the unit and then bring it off the depot for starters. In short, a lot of resources are needed and they need to all come together at the right time. As for attaching and detaching to a ATW service, that’ll cause delay. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Wizard on July 01, 2018, 09:04:32 GWR drivers absolutely do not sign Canton anymore. In addition, only a few select Gloucester West drivers sign the Lydney route. Swansea and most of Bristol HSS sign Lydney but not 158s.
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Alan Pettitt on July 01, 2018, 19:21:44 GWR’s 153368, 153318, 153382 & 153372 were seen passing Bristol Parkway bound for Etches Park for a new life. Why are they still leaving when there is a shortage here?
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: grahame on July 01, 2018, 19:45:17 GWR’s 153368, 153318, 153382 & 153372 were seen passing Bristol Parkway bound for Etches Park for a new life. Why are they still leaving when there is a shortage here? Because they were promised to East Midland Trains and there are some promises that cannot be broken. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: TaplowGreen on July 01, 2018, 20:31:20 GWR’s 153368, 153318, 153382 & 153372 were seen passing Bristol Parkway bound for Etches Park for a new life. Why are they still leaving when there is a shortage here? Because they were promised to East Midland Trains and there are some promises that cannot be broken. .....unlike those made by GWR to their customers. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: a-driver on July 01, 2018, 22:16:48 GWR’s 153368, 153318, 153382 & 153372 were seen passing Bristol Parkway bound for Etches Park for a new life. Why are they still leaving when there is a shortage here? Because they were promised to East Midland Trains and there are some promises that cannot be broken. The DfT rolling stock merry-go-round. Take units from one operator who are struggling for capacity and allocate them to another operator who is struggling even more! Fear not, in a year or so time expect another operator to be relieved of there 150s and 153s! Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: BBM on July 02, 2018, 11:48:56 On Saturday I was returning to KGX on the 15.15 LNER service from Leeds when I noticed 2 cars in GWR green going past just before Wakefield Westgate. On consulting RTT I found this train, 08.57 St Philips Marsh HSTD to Neville Hill T&R.S.M.D:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K91436/2018/06/30/advanced (http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K91436/2018/06/30/advanced) According to WNXX, the two units were 153370 & 153377 on their way to a new home with Northern. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: broadgage on July 04, 2018, 12:09:59 Short formations on branch line or secondary services seem to be getting worse, and are certainly having more impact as holiday and leisure traffic increases.
Today I notice an increasing number of services running as 1 car instead of 3 car. Worse than the normal short formations of 2 car instead of 3. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Sixty3Closure on July 04, 2018, 19:33:48 Seemed to be quite a few short formed when I was at Paddington this evening due to rolling stock being out of position. I gave up waiting for the additional stock for the 17.18 to Twyford and squeezed myself into a short formed train to Maidenhead. Website didn't report any issues though.
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: ray951 on July 05, 2018, 09:22:11 Never mind shortage of drivers or short formed trains we now have what appears to be a shortage of at least two trains on the Reading/Didcot/Oxford/Banbury shuttles today.
Both the 0808 and 0848 Didcot - Oxford services and corresponding returns cancelled today . Since Wednesday 27th June I am running at a cancellation rate of 33% (4 out of 12) of trains between Didcot and Oxford. Also the services running are primarily overcrowded 2 carriage units. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: didcotdean on July 05, 2018, 09:54:20 Also seems Oxford-Paddington fast is thinned out as well. 10:50 PAD-OXF and 11:01 OXF-PAD cancelled. 'More trains needing repairs ...'.
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: simonw on July 05, 2018, 11:12:57 This shortage of stock has been going on for 10 months.
What is the issue?
I was under the impression that cascaded stock from Thames area and cascaded stock to other franchise areas would have been sorted out by now. The Rail industry has brought in a lot of rolling stock in the last 18 months, so why are trains been cancelled and run short with this issue? When can we, as customers, expect the rail system to work again? Trains arriving, as expected, with the correct number of coaches? Finally, I am tired of the continual strap line messages, appearing on station boards, showing that more trains and capacity next year. Unfortunately all I see next year is a worse service and another promise of 'jam' next year. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: broadgage on July 05, 2018, 11:56:08 I blame a lot of the problems on "new train disease" I refer here NOT to the merits or otherwise of the new trains, but a general management view that the arrival of new trains would work wonders and sweep away unrelated shortcomings.
As a result I suspect that maintenance of existing rolling stock was cut back leading to more failures. Existing rolling stock was in many cases promised to other operators on the date when new trains SHOULD have been available. Such transfers still went ahead even if the new trains were not yet available, such promises "cant be broken" unlike promises to passengers which are not actual promises but are "hopes, aspirations, and forecasts" Main line services have been thrown into chaos by the failed introduction of the IETs with half length trains being a frequent feature. There was also the apparently unforeseen need to train staff on the new trains. On the Thames valley services, new electric trains have been introduced, these seem to have been less reliable than was hoped for with short formations reported. On many branches or secondary routes, the intention was to use the Thames turbo diesel units to replace some of the existing stock. As a result some of the existing stock was returned to the leasing company or promised to other operators, and these transfers HAD to go ahead as planned "some promises cant be broken" Arrival of the Thames turbo units was delayed, and according to some reports numbers reduced. There was again the apparently unforeseeable need to train staff on these "new" trains. Another problem was that some platforms in Cornwall are too short for Turbos, this seems to have taken GWR by surprise, with fitting of selective door opening being a prolonged business that was started at the last minute and is taking longer than expected, and not working reliably according to some reports. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: didcotdean on July 05, 2018, 14:11:28 I only fear this could get worse with some of the 387s being removed to be HEX-fied before anyone has seen a 769 even turn a wheel publicly on diesel, let alone be available for service.
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: broadgage on July 05, 2018, 14:45:02 I feel that the situation is now bad enough that drastic action is needed, even if it means taking "the railway" out of its comfort zone.
GWR, HMRI, and the government need to get to get together and hire extra stock, and to permit the use of otherwise non approved rolling stock. Many heritage railways DO have extra stock, though not passed for mainline use. An exemption or derogation needs to be granted to permit such stock to be used on the Cornish branches, and of course a "one of" permission to use the main line to get to the branch. A VERY BASIC "is it fit to run" examination would be needed, but this should be confined to the basics such as "does it look structurally sound" and "do the brakes work" NOT nit picking over all the correct signs and notices. It may need to be accepted that stock acceptable for use between Minehead and Bishops Lydeard, is now acceptable for branch line use. Steam haulage sounds attractive and might be used exceptionally, but heritage diesel locomotives, or multiple units would be more realistic. Or would it be simpler to re-brand one or two branches as light railways ? thereby permitting heritage stock. There are many days on which railtours or charters do not run, what happens to the coaches ? can they not be hired and used on the main line, hauled by a heritage diesel, or a modern freight engine. And as for the Thames turbos that lack SDO, I would run them thus even to short platforms, with stewards to prevent accidents. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Adelante_CCT on July 05, 2018, 15:26:07 I only fear this could get worse with some of the 387s being removed to be HEX-fied before anyone has seen a 769 even turn a wheel publicly on diesel, let alone be available for service. The 387s departing are as a result of the 345s coming into service, and not dependant on the arrival of the 769s. They are dependant for the further cascade of turbos though, and yes with testing way behind that is a worry. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: a-driver on July 05, 2018, 16:21:47 I feel that the situation is now bad enough that drastic action is needed, even if it means taking "the railway" out of its comfort zone. GWR, HMRI, and the government need to get to get together and hire extra stock, and to permit the use of otherwise non approved rolling stock. There is no other rolling stock to hire. GWR had to release 153’s recently to East Midlands Trains. This is to allow East Midlands Trains to overhaul their units. Basically no operator has spare capacity. Once EMT have overhauled their units don’t be surprised to see them transferred elsewhere. Quote Many heritage railways DO have extra stock, though not passed for mainline use. An exemption or derogation needs to be granted to permit such stock to be used on the Cornish branches, and of course a "one of" permission to use the main line to get to the branch. A VERY BASIC "is it fit to run" examination would be needed, but this should be confined to the basics such as "does it look structurally sound" and "do the brakes work" NOT nit picking over all the correct signs and notices. It may need to be accepted that stock acceptable for use between Minehead and Bishops Lydeard, is now acceptable for branch line use. Steam haulage sounds attractive and might be used exceptionally, but heritage diesel locomotives, or multiple units would be more realistic. Or would it be simpler to re-brand one or two branches as light railways ? thereby permitting heritage stock. There are many days on which railtours or charters do not run, what happens to the coaches ? can they not be hired and used on the main line, hauled by a heritage diesel, or a modern freight engine. You’d never get heritage stock running regular services, even on branch lines. A lot of heritage stock will need central door locking, TPWS, OTDR, GSMR etc etc fitted, probably a lot more than that even as a basic. Then there’s staff training, drivers, guards, maintenance staff. Plans to rescue any heritage train in the event of a failure. Then there is the issue of the train operator obtaining a safety case. What needs to happen is the DfT needs to buy new stock and to stop expecting train operators to run a railway with no spare stock. You can’t rely on heritage stock to prop up a railway service. Look at Virgin West Coast following the Grayrigg derailment. One Pendolino train written off and they have to bring one of their old MkIII sets out of retirement. Quote And as for the Thames turbos that lack SDO, I would run them thus even to short platforms, with stewards to prevent accidents. There isn’t an issue with the Turbo’s and short platforms on the mainline in Cornwall. The shortest platform is Menheniot which can take a 3-car, possible 4 at a squeeze. Quote There was also the apparently unforeseen need to train staff on the new (IET) train No there wasn’t. If electrification wasn’t delayed the new IET trains would have been delivered on time. Once delivered GWR would have been able to train a significant proportion of their drivers because they would still have had enough HSTs to allow them to keep the IET’s out for training purposes.As it happened. The IETs were delivered late and had to be used in passenger service because there was no other rolling stock. Services have been shortened to 5-cars so that the other 5 can be used for training. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: lordgoata on July 05, 2018, 16:33:12 So after all that fanfare about extra seats and super new trains, we are going to end up with Crossrail cattle trucks from Reading, and 4-car refurbished 1987 era ThamesLink cast-offs between Oxford and Reading??! Why on earth are they extending the platforms between Reading and Didcot if the short-lived 8 car 387s are gonna be replaced with 4 car units again?
And dont try and tell me the refurbished trains will be like new, the retrofitted aircon, and powersockets in the refurbished turbos are nothing to write home about! Or have I completely miss read the situation!? Me confused. Again. ??? Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: a-driver on July 05, 2018, 16:45:24 Class 769’s are for the LTV branches and North Downs services, and possibly the Didcot to Oxford shuttles. Had they electrified the routes as planned these probably won’t have been needed.
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: broadgage on July 05, 2018, 16:49:09 I was proposing a temporary derogation or exemption so as to permit of heritage stock being used on a branch line WITHOUT being fitted with all the latest safety features.
We used to run a railway without GSMR, TPWS, and all the other new features, and IMHO we still could run a few low risk outlying parts without these features. That is what I meant by taking "the railway" out of its comfort zone. Something needs to be done. The present situation is beyond parody and is also I fear damaging long term economic growth in the West country. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: lordgoata on July 05, 2018, 16:57:38 Class 769’s are for the LTV branches and North Downs services, and possibly the Didcot to Oxford shuttles. Had they electrified the routes as planned these probably won’t have been needed. When I just looked them up to see what they were, everything said initially LTV coverage to replace DMUs, then ending up primarily on Oxford, Reading and Gatwick services - so I took it to mean Oxford to Reading (replacing at least in part the current Oxford to Reading DMU shuttles), and Reading to Gatwick. As I said, confused! Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: a-driver on July 05, 2018, 16:59:34 The branch lines probably carry more risk than the mainline. Reception is poor for anything other than GSMR radio and there’s significant risk with a number of open level crossings and farm crossings.
I doubt anyone would authorise for fear of the repercussions if there was an incident. Any heritage train you use would need to run on a mainline to access maintenance facilities Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: SandTEngineer on July 05, 2018, 17:04:47 ...mmm. Are you not aware that West Coast Railways ran the Kendal-Windemere branch for four weeks recently using heritage rolling stock top and tailed by heritage diesels? It can be done if you try hard enough.
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: broadgage on July 05, 2018, 17:12:57 The branch lines probably carry more risk than the mainline. Reception is poor for anything other than GSMR radio and there’s significant risk with a number of open level crossings and farm crossings. I doubt anyone would authorise for fear of the repercussions if there was an incident. Any heritage train you use would need to run on a mainline to access maintenance facilities Emergency communication is easy in the absence of GSMR, simply use an Inmarsat phone. Open level crossings and farm crossings certainly represent a risk, but is this risk increased by say a preserved class 47 and some mark2 coaches instead of a modernish DMU ? Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: paul7575 on July 05, 2018, 17:20:55 ...Why on earth are they extending the platforms between Reading and Didcot if the short-lived 8 car 387s are gonna be replaced with 4 car units again? The 4 car 387s run in pairs to provide 8 car trains, so surely 769s can as well? Hence continuing with platform lengthening probably still makes sense.Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: phile on July 05, 2018, 17:26:08 Class 769’s are for the LTV branches and North Downs services, and possibly the Didcot to Oxford shuttles. Had they electrified the routes as planned these probably won’t have been needed. The 769 programme is months and months behind. No confirmation that even one has been fully modified and tested yet. ATW are in line for the first 5 now and then Northern as the latest story goes. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: a-driver on July 05, 2018, 17:35:46 ...mmm. Are you not aware that West Coast Railways ran the Kendal-Windemere branch for four weeks recently using heritage rolling stock top and tailed by heritage diesels? It can be done if you try hard enough. Yes, using mainline registered crew and rolling stock from their nearby base at Carnforth. It also cost £6000 a day to operate, I can’t see the DfT shelling out that level of cash!! Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: a-driver on July 05, 2018, 17:46:20 The branch lines probably carry more risk than the mainline. Reception is poor for anything other than GSMR radio and there’s significant risk with a number of open level crossings and farm crossings. I doubt anyone would authorise for fear of the repercussions if there was an incident. Any heritage train you use would need to run on a mainline to access maintenance facilities Emergency communication is easy in the absence of GSMR, simply use an Inmarsat phone. Open level crossings and farm crossings certainly represent a risk, but is this risk increased by say a preserved class 47 and some mark2 coaches instead of a modernish DMU ? Emergency communication isn’t as easy, general communication maybe. True, a 47 versus a tractor would fair better than a unit. But you’ve still got to find a fully competent crew on the traction. Plus you’ll need route clearance, some branch lines the line speed is substantially lower for loco hauled trains. There are literally loads of hurdles to get over Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: JayMac on July 05, 2018, 18:00:28 Class 769’s are for the LTV branches and North Downs services, and possibly the Didcot to Oxford shuttles. Had they electrified the routes as planned these probably won’t have been needed. The 769 programme is months and months behind. No confirmation that even one has been fully modified and tested yet. ATW are in line for the first 5 now and then Northern as the latest story goes. Indeed. DfT/GWR should give up on the 769 plan. I strongly doubt they'll come through. New stock should be ordered. NOW! Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: a-driver on July 05, 2018, 18:34:48 Class 769’s are for the LTV branches and North Downs services, and possibly the Didcot to Oxford shuttles. Had they electrified the routes as planned these probably won’t have been needed. The 769 programme is months and months behind. No confirmation that even one has been fully modified and tested yet. ATW are in line for the first 5 now and then Northern as the latest story goes. Indeed. DfT/GWR should give up on the 769 plan. I strongly doubt they'll come through. New stock should be ordered. NOW! Too right. These 769’s and ex-tube stock conversions are just cheap options to plug a hole, wether it’s a result of botched electrification or just a general lack of a rolling stock strategy. There seems to be no actual long term strategy from the DfT, just jumping from one quick fix to another. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: broadgage on July 05, 2018, 18:47:19 I agree entirely that some new stock needs to be ordered now, but that wont help for this summer.
My proposal for a temporary derogation to use non approved stock was a short term suggestion for the here and now, not a long term solution. Alternatively are there any surplus EMUs in storage ? class 319s or others ? could these be used, loco hauled ? Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: JayMac on July 05, 2018, 21:43:09 I agree entirely that some new stock needs to be ordered now, but that wont help for this summer. My proposal for a temporary derogation to use non approved stock was a short term suggestion for the here and now, not a long term solution. Alternatively are there any surplus EMUs in storage ? class 319s or others ? could these be used, loco hauled ? It's the Class 319s that are supposed to be converted to 769s. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: grahame on July 05, 2018, 21:56:45 I agree entirely that some new stock needs to be ordered now, but that wont help for this summer. My proposal for a temporary derogation to use non approved stock was a short term suggestion for the here and now, not a long term solution. Alternatively are there any surplus EMUs in storage ? class 319s or others ? could these be used, loco hauled ? It's the Class 319s that are supposed to be converted to 769s. A couple of diesel engines in separate vehicles on the end while they wait for the shops to fit diesel engines underneath? Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: IndustryInsider on July 05, 2018, 21:59:15 Not wishing to dismiss the idea off hand, but I would expect numerous little issues as well as the ones already mentioned which would make it a non-starter.
First, every train would need two locos, even if they are sourced that’s a 6-vehicle formation. Can all Cornish branches cope with such lengths? How would supply to the 319 train work in terms of opening doors etc as the train would need to be operated in ‘rescue’ mode which means very limited functions on the train? Are all platforms long enough for a 4-car train without SDO? Main line locos and charter MK IIs or IIIs would be the way forward rather than surplus EMUs, but you can bet it would cost a pretty penny! Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: CMRail on July 05, 2018, 22:07:52 Send all of the turbos back, electrify Wiltshire, Gloucestershire and the Bristol Area and we can have the 387s. Simples. ;D
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: broadgage on July 06, 2018, 00:20:40 I agree entirely that some new stock needs to be ordered now, but that wont help for this summer. My proposal for a temporary derogation to use non approved stock was a short term suggestion for the here and now, not a long term solution. Alternatively are there any surplus EMUs in storage ? class 319s or others ? could these be used, loco hauled ? It's the Class 319s that are supposed to be converted to 769s. I know, I was speculating as to whether or not there might be some NOT due for conversion, or stored for pending conversion, that could in the interim be used as hauled coaches. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Sixty3Closure on July 10, 2018, 09:42:31 Just for a moment I dared to hope my commute might improve (at least in one direction) as my regular train suddenly changed into one of those shiny new electric ones.
Sadly my hopes were soon dashed as the very crowded 6 carriage DMU has been replaced with a measly 4 EMU. Didn't even try to get on today as Twyford is starting to resemble Maidenhead as everyone tries to piles on. I'm sure its coincidence but the "this trained is formed of..." disappeared as did the announcement on carriage length. I have no idea if this is a permanent change, will always be 4 carriages or if its Oxford related. Really hope its not permanent as already missed one meeting this week. I did get a seat on the next slow train although sadly no aircon and late for work. Some people are just never happy! Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Sixty3Closure on July 11, 2018, 09:47:10 4 Coaches again. Guess this is the new norm for this service.
Disappointing. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Phantom on July 11, 2018, 10:02:39 Went to catch 2Y24 last night (1612 BPW - WSM) normally a three car set, but due to a shortage of rolling stock an HST was used as a replacement
The look of shock at FIT was brilliant, people not sure whether to board or not, then at BRI it was announced the service was no longer stopping at BMT or PSN Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Adelante_CCT on July 11, 2018, 10:10:26 4 Coaches again. Guess this is the new norm for this service. Disappointing. Which service are you referring to? Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Richard Fairhurst on July 11, 2018, 10:13:39 Went to catch 2Y24 last night (1612 BPW - WSM) normally a three car set, but due to a shortage of rolling stock an HST was used as a replacement The look of shock at FIT was brilliant, people not sure whether to board or not, then at BTM it was announced the service was no longer stopping at BED or PST PST is Prestonpans, but you've got me with BED and BTM, and going via the Edinburgh suburbs seems like an eccentric diversion... (Please - use real station names!) Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Western Pathfinder on July 11, 2018, 11:33:58 Bedminster & Parsons Street.
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: martyjon on July 11, 2018, 13:30:29 Talking to a pub fellow regular on Monday night caught up in the usual Sunday cancellations and all that the previous evening described the state of play at Paddington as, "you would think the latest round of the UK's hide and seek championships were being played out at Paddington last night, only person to help was a wonderfully helpful ethnic caribbean gentleman driving a people carrying float who told him and his wife to watch him as his next task was to collect an elderly couple and deposit them onto the next train to Bristol Parkway as their booked train was cancelled like theirs and in doing so they were directed to the next BPW train before it was showing on the departure screens."
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Sixty3Closure on July 11, 2018, 14:03:27 4 Coaches again. Guess this is the new norm for this service. Disappointing. Which service are you referring to? Its the 06.53 from Twyford to Paddington for me. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Adelante_CCT on July 11, 2018, 15:10:08 This is Oxford related, (service temporarily starts at Didcot vice Oxford) so will be back to turbo operation once the line has reopened
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Sixty3Closure on July 11, 2018, 15:51:45 Thanks for the information. We would have settled for an 8 or 12 coach EMU but having our faithful turbos back is welcome news as well.
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Richard Fairhurst on July 11, 2018, 15:53:18 Bedminster & Parsons Street. Ah, BMT and PSN then! Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Western Pathfinder on July 11, 2018, 16:33:35 Bedminster & Parsons Street. Ah, BMT and PSN then! Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: hassaanhc on July 11, 2018, 18:32:46 Looks like the 1R06 1757 London Paddington to Reading (calling at Slough, Burnham, Maidenhead and Twyford) is a DMU this week, while the 2R60 1759 London Paddington to Reading (calling at Ealing Broadway, Southall then all stations) is an EMU. This was originally the case from January but in February they swapped the units to make the stopper a 5-car DMU and the faster one an 8-car EMU.
Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: JayMac on August 15, 2018, 11:42:58 A couple from JourneyCheck today:
11:00 Bristol Temple Meads to London Paddington due 12:37 Facilities on the 11:00 Bristol Temple Meads to London Paddington due 12:37. This is due to a fault on this train. This train will now be formed of the usual number of coaches. 08:41 Gloucester to Weymouth due 12:09 Facilities on the 08:41 Gloucester to Weymouth due 12:09. This is due to a fault on this train. Will be formed of 4 coaches instead of 3. With these correct and extended formations you are really spoiling us, GWR! :-\ Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: Timmer on September 16, 2018, 10:01:06 7.57 Pad-Pnz cancelled but not showing on Journeycheck as being cancelled.
8.33 Pad-Swa now stopping at Chippenham and Bath to sort of compensate. Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: phile on September 16, 2018, 10:28:19 7.57 Pad-Pnz cancelled but not showing on Journeycheck as being cancelled. 8.33 Pad-Swa now stopping at Chippenham and Bath to sort of compensate. [/quote There are others - 1027 PAD to CNM for one due Traincrew issues. I have Tweeted GWR Title: Re: Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion Post by: grahame on September 16, 2018, 10:56:51 7.57 Pad-Pnz cancelled but not showing on Journeycheck as being cancelled. 8.33 Pad-Swa now stopping at Chippenham and Bath to sort of compensate. There are others - 1027 PAD to CNM for one due Traincrew issues. I have Tweeted GWR Now showing ... Quote 07:57 London Paddington to Penzance due 14:16 07:57 London Paddington to Penzance due 14:16 has been cancelled. This is due to a fault on this train. Last Updated:16/09/2018 10:33 Quote 10:27 London Paddington to Cheltenham Spa due 12:45 10:27 London Paddington to Cheltenham Spa due 12:45 has been cancelled. This is due to a shortage of train crew. Last Updated:16/09/2018 10:32 This late notice is due to a shortage of computer staff ?? This page is printed from the "Coffee Shop" forum at http://gwr.passenger.chat which is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway. Views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that content provided contravenes our posting rules ( see http://railcustomer.info/1761 ). The forum is hosted by Well House Consultants - http://www.wellho.net |