Great Western Coffee Shop

Consultation Question 3

a) Giving reasons, do you agree or disagree with the options outlined above for:
●● Transferring Greenford branch services to the Chiltern franchise;
– Agree
– Disagree
– No opinion
●● Transferring the existing Brighton-Southampton portion of the current Great Western Bristol – Salisbury – Southampton – Brighton service to the Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern franchise;
– Agree
– Disagree
– No opinion
b) What other locations or routes do you think should be considered for adding to the franchise or transferring to another franchise, and why?

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Explanatory text

In addition to the question of whether the franchise should be split, we have also identified some potential options for changes to the geographic boundaries of the franchise. These options would remain relevant whether the franchise is retained as a single large, integrated franchise or split into smaller franchises. These options are:
●● The Greenford branch. Some stakeholders have questioned whether the Greenford branch is best served in future by the Great Western franchise or whether there could be a case for incorporating it into the Chiltern franchise, which is due to be re-let in 2021. Chiltern operates a large fleet of similar diesel trains from its nearby depot at Wembley and could therefore be well placed to operate the service in future.
●● Brighton. The current Great Western franchise operates a small number of through services from Brighton to Southampton, Salisbury, Bristol and beyond. While these services provide useful direct links to and from the south coast, they are infrequent and contribute to an irregular service pattern between Brighton, Chichester and Southampton. Transferring the Brighton-Southampton part of these services into the successor to the current Thameslink, Southern & Great Northern (TSGN) franchise could allow a more consistent and regular service pattern to be operated on this route. Electric trains could replace diesels between Southampton and Brighton, providing more seats than the Great Western franchise provides today and releasing diesel trains to provide more space for passengers on other core routes within the Great Western franchise. If GWR services to/from Brighton were to be withdrawn, we would require the TSGN franchise to maintain sufficient capacity between Brighton, Portsmouth and Southampton. Different arguments might apply on weekdays, when these services provide a commuter service to/from Brighton, and where services beyond Southampton may be less important; and at weekends, when these services may be more important for leisure passengers travelling longer distances who wish to avoid changing trains.

See http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=19037 for the background to this topic




Edit note: Bullet point punctuation amended, purely for clarity. CfN.  :)

Some thoughts

Greenford

With the transfer of inner suburban services to the Elizabeth line, retaining the Greenford branch in the GW franchise becomes more and more of an anachronism. However, saying "is the GW franchises a poor home" isn't all that constructive and the question has to be asked "so what would be better?"

I am loathe to come to any conclusions as I don't know the line, but I do wonder if West Ealing is really the logical terminus ... how about extending the services to the forthcoming Old Oak station for connectivity there, or to elsewhere on the Elizabeth line?  Would it be too radical to suggest that trains turn west rather than east and run rom Heathrow to Greenford - or indeed that they extend beyond Greenford to provide a connection into trains to Birmingham on the Chiltern line at West Ruislip?

Mixed in with these use and operations questions ... the questions have to be asked "should it be electrified", "who should operate it" and "does it have a place in the wider transport picture, or should it remain a relatively quiet local backwater".   "Does it have a strategic direction"?

Some thoughts

Brighton

Currently you have one through train a day, Monday to Friday, from (beyond) the Bristol Area via Southampton to Brighton, with two trains a day in the opposite direction.  The stock for the first through service Brighton to Bristol and beyond runs from Portsmouth.    There are more through trains at the weekend than on weekdays.

The two trains on Mondays to Fridays form commuter trains into Brighton from the West Coastway line (in the morning) as well as back out in the evening - strengthening the regular and frequent electric service that also serves the West Coastway from Brighton.   Anecdotal evidence suggests that the GW diesel trains to Brighton are at the far end of the GW 'empire' and tend to get curtailed / cancelled more often than they should.  And it's also suggested that providing emergency maintenance / repair staff a long way from base is a bit of a nuisance.

"The Brightons" date from the time when West Coastway trains all ran to Portsmouth, and they were the only trains in the day which ran direct from Havant to Fareham, but now there is an hourly service from Brighton to Southampton which doubles up, with an electric train, on the GW service.  Once at Fareham and Southampton, a GW hourly service runs without further change to the Bristol area.   These two hourly services give an alternative, all day, for passengers from Havant / Chichester / Worthing / Shoreham / Hove / Brighton to Trowbridge / Bristol / Bath / Newport / Cardiff with just one change.    Two current problems on top of people's desire for a through train:
a) connections are awful!    The hourly Brighton train leaves Southampton just before the train from Cardiff arrives
b) The Cardiff - Portsmouth train is overcrowded

With SWR and GWR timetable rewrites in a year, I wonder how the connections may change

We have been promised an increase from 3 to 5 cars on Cardiff Portsmouth, which may give a window of opportunity for extra capacity (until the trains get full again !!!) and indeed with better integration of Solent - Salisbury, Salisbury - Westbury and Westbury - Swindon services, some further pressure should be relieved.

There is potentially a better case for through weekend services from Brighton the Bristol area than there is for the weekday ones.  And there may be a case for transferring to another franchise.   Personally, I don't think the Southern one fits the bill - it moves an anachronism in GWR to an anachronism in Southern and in headlines perhaps Cross Country is their home.  Except that Cross Country doesn't have a good record on trains to Brighton, and I'm aware of places like Paignton feeling rather snubbed by the XC empire.  So perhaps that's not a good home either?

I was hoping to attend next weeks meet up at Didcot, however work/life commitments may get in the way therefore I will voice my opinions within these forum sections over the coming days in case of my unavailability.

GREENFORD

Agree - I have to admit that up until recently I hadn't thought of having the Greenford services passed over to Chiltern, though it does seem less suitable for it to remain within GWR boundaries.

To see a significant boost on the line would probably require conversion over to underground (Central line) or converted into a tram operation with extensions/route adjustments at either end, similar to the Wimbledon/Croydon area which has seen a massive increase in patronage since the introduction of trams. Sadly these are not really viable options as this route is used by many freight routes (a quick look ahead sees up to 20 or so freight paths used along this section), most don't operate every day but is still a key route. Adding in other factors such as turning steam locos and other traction round and with the impending temporary closure of the Park Royal line to facilitate HS2 works, this line really is a vital link.

Moving on to Chiltern Railways, could it be possible to not only operate this route but integrate into other services? Timetabling and route conflicts could be a major issue, especially around the Ruislip area, but may it be possible to operate for example, an hourly service from Greenford to West Ealing, with an hourly service from Wycombe or Gerrards Cross to West Ealing? A downfall of this would be less services from Greenford, though they have the option of using the Central line, whilst the main advantage would allow passengers from say Gerrards Cross to access central London or Heathrow by way of Crossrail without using Marylebone, opening up new route opportunities.   

This could be a cheap way of boosting the line without the need for splashing the cash. A very long term solution could be to electrify and operate Crossrail along the route, along with platform extensions, station rebuilds etc. however I believe this should be lower down on Network Rail's priority list.

As Graham says above, I don't know the lines demographics that well, and this is just my personal view. I'm sure those living more locally can give more accurate conclusions to any suggestions that are made

BRIGHTON

Agree - (To an extent)

As mentioned both services do serve the Brighton peak times and is no doubt a welcome for those commuting along the South Coast, however, should this really be down to GWR to sort out? The entire route to Southampton is electrified and should probably be served by electrics, either of the Southern or SWR variant.

I know having direct services between a and z is sometimes hotly discussed on this forum, but my belief is that if you need to travel, then you need to travel, regardless of it being direct or involving a change. Having the 10:48 from Malvern running through may be of use to those who wish to travel from Bath to Brighton around lunchtime for example, but does not cater for those wishing to travel in any other time range due to the lack of direct services, and many who need to make such a journey are likely to simply change at Southampton en route.

Yes, better connections are needed, currently around 25 minutes waiting heading towards the south coast, and 50 minutes interchange heading from the south, such connections are likely to put people off wishing to travel. Not all trains can perfectly interchange with another and its something we have to live with.

How many people per day actually use this service from stations west of Southampton to stations east of Cosham, probably very few and to run a service to benefit so few to me does not seem overly productive, I feel GWR could use the unit to better strengthen their own services... Looking at the current timings, how about on arrival at Southampton at 14:32, this returns northbound at 14:40, which then continues as the current 15:28 from Warminster, or simply run as a standalone unit? Either way you could then have a unit in the Westbury area at 15:45 to form an additional service to Swindon....16:45 from Swindon to Westbury anyone? This could get to Southampton to form the northbound Brighton working at 18:42.


Not necessarily transfer to another franchise, but I do believe something needs to be done with the Great Malvern leg of services that have come up from Bristol, all too often these services are cut back at Worcester due to late running and perhaps as such they should all terminate at Worcester with alternative (WMT) services being provided for onward travel.

Reading to Gatwick is still a strange one and transferring over to SWR would probably make more sense geographically, although with no 3rd rail the stock would still likely need to be the same and a change of operator may not be overly beneficial. (Still wish they would just 3rd rail the gaps though)

Many thanks for those Brighton inputs - I find myself wondering if the DfT finds this subject "too hot to handle" and is looking for public input so that they can make a decision based on the inputs they get, explaining away any unpopular choice (which it's bound to be with one group or another) on the basis of "but the public said ...".     Let's see what other comments we get here and we hear elsewhere over coming weeks.


With some of the border services, I wonder about switching to class 769 (that's the new class number for 319 Flex - see [here] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_769)).   Four car trains from Gatwick to Reading, running most of the way on third rail and with a potential to carry on through to Oxford - on the overheads to Didcot, then diesel again for the final few miles.

Interesting thoughts:

Agree Chiltern are are probably a better bet to run the service than GWR as they have units at Wembley. Whereas GWR would have to run them from Reading.

Interesting idea re conversion to tram probably very long term solution when it is finally realised on road trams are the best traffic busters, especially if they have right of way in all circumstances and road users are fined if they impeded a tram.

Running further onto the Chiltern  Chiltern the problem here is Greenford unless the original GWR station is reopened. through trains would be unable to serve Greenford and make a connection with the Central Line. I have a feeling that most passengers on the branch alighting at Greenford change for the Central line. Also there is  the single line to South Ruislip and the long run (>1 mile) on the Down Chiltern at South Ruislip for Up Trains. Although having said that GWR did manage to run 2 HSTS per hour in each direction during the Reading closure, but it was a weekend.

Re electrification agree OOC to West Ealing should be electrified for the reasons given.
 I always thought that the original Crossrail route should have been extended to High Wycombe (at Least) Rather than Amersham as proposed. With scope for an Interchange at North Acton which would give access to the Central Line to both Ealing and West Ruislip.  This would have utilised some of the 14tph which will terminate at Westbourne Park

A way out  suggestion is could it be connected to the Dudding Hill line around OOC to provide a WEst Ealing via North Acton OOC St. Pancras service.

The only possible reason for leaving it under GWR, as orphan Annie, is that GWR will still run the Windsor, Marlow and Henley lines with diesel for some time, unless the lot are transferred to TFL/Crossrail.

There is a lot of talk of extending the Reading - Gatwick service in various Thames Valley development plans. If/when it is extended to Oxford it is further into GWR territory. Like the idea of diesel/OLE/3rd rail, always impressed by the smooth transition on London Overground between OLE/3rd rail. Would the proposed Reading - Heathrow service by attractive to TfL, if they are not paying for the infrastructure?

There might be sense in using class 769 for an extended hourly Gatwick to Reading service extended to Didcot and Oxford, allowing 16x with extended luggage to cascade to Southampton to Bristol and Cardiff cruise services.  But the there's talk of a third train per hour between Reading and Redhill, so perhaps this would be the/an extra train?

Far too frequent ... a "double whamee" for the people of Brighton - next train at 17:00 if they're on GWR advance tickets.

08:59 due Bristol 12:29
09:04 ex Brighton, Portsmouth Harbour train change at Fratton 10:18 to 10:32 (is that double back allowed or do you have to change Hilsea?) gets to Bristol at 12:48 if you're quick enough to find the option
09:33 ex Brighton to Southampton - Soton 11:19 to 12:10, Bristol at 13:48

Brightons
Agree, limit service, not enough units. Split the route up at Southampton or Portsmouth, GWR running a more high frequency from Bristol to Southampton, and Southern or SWR run to Brighton.

Greenford
Disagree in part, GWR should keep it, maybe have a maintenance contract with Chiltern at Wembley as per XC at Laira, with units changing weekly for major servicing.

In my response I pointed out that SN already run hourly Southampton to Brighton 7days a week and could see no point whatsoever in running two services a few minutes apart in some hours...

Some parts of the franchise are like that, services to Exeter Central are meant to be every 15-20 minutes, yet sometimes you can have services 10 minutes apart, and then a 40 minute wait for the next service!

The consultation document was released yesterday 28th August 2018,   It turns out whilst lots of people supported transferring the Greenford Branch, its actually no easier to have trains based at Chiltern's depot then it is from GWR's Reading depot, so therefore the Dft has left it down to First Group.  So basically its not happening.

There isn't the capacity at Wembley anyway

So why was it even suggested in the first place ???  Its like asking if you want candles on your birthday cakes, saying yes and then being told tough because there isn't any!

Chiltern do have other depots aside from Wembley of course - including the shiny new one at Banbury that is only half its potential capacity at the moment - though not as handily located as Wembley for supplying trains for Greenford, which has become rather a ghost service since being truncated at West Ealing. 

Though it might get a bit of a much needed boost when Elizabeth Line services start, it’ll never be cherry picked by any operator.

I honestly don't see why its so difficult to keep it in house at GWR, if driver Ted is really so bored with it, then maybe look at a new train or retrofitting a Class 165 to run automatically along the route.

It's not difficult to keep it with GWR it's just that it might have been more sensible to transfer to Chiltern (at least, that's what some stakeholders suggested).  It turns out it probably isn't, and therefore GWR will continue to operate it in all likelihood, though I'm sure given the chance they'd have been quite happy offloading it to someone else.  I'm a bit confused as to who Driver Ted is and why he is bored with it?

Here is Driver Ted - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Here-Comes-Train-DVD-Driver/dp/B000X43EL0

His catchphrase is "Here Comes A Train!" which I'm sure grahame will be keen to negotiate the rights to for Melksham Rail User Group.

Yes, Chiltern could move their servicing about & complete construction of the Banbury 'depot' - but suspect the money isn't there or otherwise it would have been done when first constructed?

There are thoughts for Chiltern to serve Old Oak Common once constructed, but that's many moons away.

Some footage of Driver Ted just in. I'm afraid he doesn't have the required route knowledge for the Greenford branch or to cover the TransWilts, so here he is on the Daisy Line  - https://youtu.be/riVJZP54HEQ

Some catchy tunes in there, devonexpress. Does your household like a good singalong?

I believe it was sung by commuters finding out that their train will atcually be a 10 car IET!

It was actually something I just made up in my head, turns out it actually made a good joke.