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Not attributed - but a sketch of where the Bristol Suburban Railway network could be by the middle of the century? Looking beyond WECA, MetroWest, the Severnside CRP and FoSBR. Ahead beyond the 30 year rail planning window too, it has local trains running to Ashton Gate, Bristol Airport, Charfield, Chippenham, Cribbs Causeway, Melksham, Portishead, Radstock, Severn Beach, Thornbury, Warminster, Westgate Park and Weston-super-Mare.

To me, this highlights the absurdity of our current systems for planning, funding and building new rail infrastructure: As of now, I'm sure that the network shown would be well-used and bring economic benefits.  If we could get it built in 5 years, we could be fairly confident of a good return on investment. But in 30 or 40 years' time, who knows what the requirements will be?

Broadway Station was authorised in 1899, opened in 1904 and closed in 1960. If they'd used the GRIP process, the paint would have barely dried by the time they knocked it down. You could argue that if they'd had GRIP back then, they would never have built it - and you could well be right. Sometimes it seems to me that GRIP is not so much a tool for getting it right as a mechanism for delaying and avoiding investment.

If I may pick up just one of those 'possible' new lines - actually, the one which I perhaps know most about - the one to Bristol Airport?

Their suggested link from west of Yatton Station appears to follow the alignment of the old Strawberry Line to somewhere south of Congresbury, then strikes off east along (I assume) the alignment of the trackbed of the old Wrington Vale Light Railway, before swinging north towards Bristol Airport somewhere to the east of Wrington.

You wouldn't get that little lot agreed to and built in a hundred years, never mind 30.  Most of that old trackbed / alignment has now been built on, with very significant residential and industrial use, so you'd have some rather powerful opposition.  You are also trying to get from near sea level (76 metres above) at Wrington to 190 metres above at Bristol Airport, in a relatively short distance.

And it isn't even the best approach to Bristol Airport from Bristol: why not look instead at the possibilities of a tramway / light rail link from Bristol Temple Meads direct to Bristol Airport, roughly along the alignment of the A38?  That would perhaps stand a rather better chance of ever actually happening.

Unconvinced from Nailsea.  ::)



Edit note: Metric height above sea level figure for Bristol Airport now corrected, with thanks to member chuffed for pointing out my error.  :-[

And to pick up on one of the others, what's with the line from Portishead crossing the Avon somewhere around the Suspension Bridge and joining the Severn Beach line, leaving Ashton Gate on a curious spur? I can vaguely see some point in being able to get from Portishead to Clifton directly but not so much as to be worth taking a longer route to Temple Meads, and as for the practicalities... well, clearly the line will use one of the new metro tunnels to cross the Avon Gorge!

With my recent track record on heights above (or even below) sea level, Bmblbzzz, I didn't want to even start discussing that one!  ;) :D ;D

And a tram train running from the proposed Portishead  station to the site of the 54-64 station, and on up the hill in Portishead along Nore Road, passing my humble abode. Sharp right along the coast road and then a viaduct on Clevedon golf course  and a short tunnel  to the west of Walton in Gordano through the Gordano valley on the old Light railway alignment.Then through to Clevedon Triangle and the old branch line to Yatton. There we have it... we could call it the Elfan Loop Line !

... and, to complete the absolute loopiness, it could then head back towards Bristol to link up with the Nigel Ashton Vale line.  ::) :o :-X

Where would you get enough drivers for all of that?  :o ::) ;D

The best approach to a Bristol Airport is the Cribbs Causeway branch ... but someone's building houses on the runway.

1 in 30 ruling gradient to an underground station for "Lulsgate" ... railway moving away from the old trackbed on the light railway to climb on the side of the valley?  Bristol "Lulsgate" still likely to be closer Bristol than Frankfurt Hahn to Frankfurt

And don't overlook that major flow of pensioners from retirement in Weston-s-m to the planes to the Costa Del Sol and Corfu.

I won't be popular in some quarters if I suggest driving could be a second career for the train manager.   Or they could come to this country from the new Eastern Europe - wherever the inbound flow will be at that time.  Perhaps people wanting to escape the USA if Mr T and his followers carry on as they're going.

With the current increases in projected costings for new/improved lines it might be cheaper to lower Lulsgate than raise a line to there. 😀

Well, as grahame has already hinted, the perhaps ideal height above mean sea level for a Bristol Airport would have been 225 feet / 69 metres (thank you, chuffed).

However, that opportunity for an airport with almost ready-made road and rail infrastructure links was lost, some time ago, when Filton was sold off for housing.  ::)

Just looking for a good place to start a new dicussion on Bristol Airport.

Someone has just posted a suggestion to use Stancombe quarry as a rail route to the airport, presumably from somewhere near Flax Bourton or Long Ashton (if you look at the map).

My own idea has been to run a minibus shuttle from Nailsea and Backwell station. There used to be a bus, the A2, from Weston super Mare, via the Airport, to Nailsea and Backwell and thence to Nailsea and Clevedon. This was discontinued, but in the month  before the service stopped I visited the airport incognito and asked at the information desk how to get to the rail network - no info inside the airport either as map or timetable on the A2, and the bus stop was labelled only "A2" with no destination, and the bus itself was labelled only "North Somerset Link" - as I wrote to the CEO of Bristol Airport, "Anyone would think you wanted the airport parking revenue".

We had a meeting with the Airport and pointed all this out, and they said the problem was the Backwell crossroads. My thought was that a minibus could go round the back of Backwell. I tried to start up an email discussion about this with North Somerset Council, got a vague expression of interest and heard no more. The Airport did not want to release the postcode data to me but consented in principle to release it to my University of Bristol contact who lives in Nailsea, who has also gone quiet.

Perhaps the Airport feel that a minibus shuttle would be below their dignity? They are floating plans to run a rail link from Parson St (or the Vale location favoured by Taylor Wimpey, where the South Bristol Link road crosses the rail line. Mayor Marvin would like to see an underground link which most of us feel is very beyond the pale! But at least that would get round the gradient problem which most people cite.

I'm going to post on Aztec West seperately.

   

So, Aztec West underground station. I am aware this is a suggestion of Graham's. I was in conversation with a chap who was planning ahead to the post-climate change world with 85 ft sea level rise. He felt that an underground network would be a necessity if most of Britain was to be under water, so wanted my thoughts on Marvin's underground metro.

I suggested that a great way to test an underground metro logistics would be to build the Aztec West underground station first as a stand-alone project. So if it was embarrassingly complicated and expensive they would not have spent billions on a useless tunnel and could sink the costs of just the one station, and connect Bristol North to the rest of the world at the same time.

Now, MP Darren Jones is holding a Gridlock Conference on Saturday 7th July 2018, taking place from 2:30 to approximately 4:30 pm.The event will be held at Henbury and Brentry Community Centre, Machin Road, Henbury, BS10 7HG.

He invited stakeholders (including an email to me) as follows:

"As you are no doubt aware, there is substantial development happening across the North of Bristol, which is underpinned by a spatial planning and housing strategy. This is in addition to tolls being removed from the Severn Bridge. This will mean challenges in ensuring appropriate transport infrastructure, and that our roads do not turn into gridlock.

I do hope you will be able to join us and share your insights and expertise on finding a way forward. I have invited key stakeholders from across North Bristol to attend to work collaboratively on how we can best develop a set of proposals and asks to make to key decision makers."

So - I can't attend myself; I can't get any other FOSBR members to go. Would one of the forum members be interested in attending? I think it would be an excellent forum to raise both Graham's Aztec West idea and also things like a Park and Ride inside Filton Rail Diamond (an idea from Neil Hackett) and of course rehabilitating the Henbury Loop plans (which may mean engaging with the CH2MHill 2015 report that was so damning of the idea.

Perhaps the polite thing to do is email me (on general@fosbr.org.uk) and I can suggest to Darren Jones that he invite you?

Tina Biggs
FOSBR

An excellent idea


And re: 20th April FOSBR meeting


I can't help asking whether the current FOSBR is the right / ideal vehicle for getting involved in a long term partnership with all the other parties involved to look at the very real issues that - from what I've seen - North Bristol faces with regards Gridlock.   

As someone who doesn't live in the area, but visits from time to time - driving, using the train and sometimes using the bus, I dread my journeys.  Whether Metrobus and MetroWest will improve the journeys (they should) and improve them to the extent of removing all the gridlock / access issues (I very much doubt they could achieve that Utopia) I cannot be sure. What is needed is partners who will consistently work with MPs, local authorities, train operating companies for the common good and common goals, being there when needed / invited, and not prone to throwing "media stunts" or being unable to put anyone up for meetings which are in the mainstream of their objectives.

It's rare to find any ideal vehicle though - and perhaps FOSBR comes closest?   Or perhaps FOSBR can pick up a groundswell and grow back into the role, with a clear partnership policy of working with everyone - a broad church listening to all views from guests at the their meetings, but without any perceived threat of putting political agendae above sorting out what I think are very real issues, and with depth to be consistently able to put up representatives at relevant meetings.

I have come back to further comment.

In my view, it should be the agenda of the passengers and the other Stakeholders - and it should not start from a competition between the two (with a winner and a loser), but with an attitude for everyone to work together for the mutual good.

Quite so. And that's why I'm not a member of FOSBR.

Surely it is better to link directly to Temple Meads via the A1, this connects with Cross Country as well as GWR, and many rail passengers going to the airport would need to change at BTM anyway if they were getting a less frequent min bus from Nailsea and Backwell.

I would be the first to agree with this view. I do still keep my FOSBR subscription running as I have seen the good work they have done. Like with any other group/party, my views may not be the same on every single issue as with many other members but I believe FOSBR is a wide enough church to make my membership worthwhile. After all, just look at the differing views on our forum. As to the different ways they can contribute to promote rail, I think all pro rail groups have their values and shortcomings.
That said, although I may not be very conciliatory about Metrobust, I do still believe in the general principle of getting different interests to at least try to work together.

It would actually be from 'somewhere between Flax Bourton and Backwell' - and even that only works if you look at the map and disregard the contour markings, I rather think you'll find, Tina.  ;)

Back to the original map...  how about re-instating the last 1 mile of track that was lifted years ago between SVB and PIL?  That would give us the full double loop service again, with PWY able to be served by many more local services, and even give the Yate corridor a direct link to the full SVB line!

For the sake of that tiny track link that was removed we've lost the entire outer Bristol loop, which combined with a re-opened Henbury loop would give us endless local flexibility...

Yeah I know the M49 link road was built over part of the alignment, but if we're looking at some of the ideas for the next 30 years then this one surely has to be one of the simplest for the benefits it would bring?   :)

There is a fair bit if development in addition to the motorway on the old track bed which is a pity as it would be useful to have kept it.

What makes that easy in distance is made up for by a lot of stuff along the way.  Hard to make out the path of the old railway or how you might thread it through

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/svb_pil_esri.jpg)

S - Severn Beach Station
P - Pilning (current, high level) Station.

Pilning Low Level station was just to the north of the High Level, with the line leading off to the North West, parallel with the road to - err - Pilning. It then looped around close to the top of the map and headed south with a bit of west.  You can just about make out the old course of the line at the Pilning end from the photo and tell where it was if you're there on the ground with a few clues from things like fence and field alignments.  At the Severn Beach end it has been mostly lost under development; odd clues in the one or two slightly more modern houses where it crossed some roads.   I think it would be difficult to locate any remains to indicate where the intermediate stations of Cross Hands and New Passage were sited, though that's something I have not tried.

Yeah I know... a single track bed width which is all the old link was could have so easily been retained by BR (at the time) just in case...  as is the case with so many lost alignments.  Hindsight is such a wonderful thing!   ;)

http://bristol-rail.co.uk/wiki/File:57221.jpg

http://bristol-rail.co.uk/wiki/File:Ableton_Lane_Crossing2.jpg

I think Pilning works rather well as the main access from Wales and Taunton to Severnside. One of the problems cited with a passenger service on the Henbury Loop, according to the 2015 CH2MHill report, was that a full loop service is much harder to timetable than a series of branch lines - at least, much was made of the difficulty of finding paths both at Narroways and also at the Filton Diamond that would turn into a full loop timetable without too much trainset time wasted. Surely trying to timetable a double loop would be even worse?

I am very happy to be educated on Stancombe Quarry, but surely in the meantime a shuttlebus service from Nailsea and Backwell would be a good trial - after all there is a 30 minute frequency there and it might not be too difficult to persuade Cross-Country trains to stop there as well as more direct London trains, now we have bimodal. Surely the lack of electrification to Temple Meads could have this silver lining? I know GWR were keen on the idea, until the plans for a ramp on the south platform were ditched?

Hope the TranWilts AGM today went well by the way. Was anyone there from FOSBR in the end? I did try and get some of the cttee interested. Good that the MetroWest story (Westbury and Glos) made it into the Post - who was responsible for that?

Had a very good meeting Weds on Severn Beach Line, but sorry, Chatham rules.... watch this space though.

Tina

But that was too hard under a two tracked Filton Bank but we are getting a four tracked Filton Bank and one of the benefits for approving the four tracking was to enable a rail service to be restored on the Henbury Loop.

Tell me about timetabling double ended lines with single track sections, freight  and busy junctions!! Other examples of tricky timetabling jobs with all three issues include Swindon to Westbury and Salisbury to Romsey via Southampton.   Revival of an outer loop (Pilning to Severn Beach, via Cross Hands and New Passage) is very, very unlikely. 

Pilning as access (as you suggest) from Wales - also from Taunton, Weston and Bristol City Centre and suburbs - to Severnside "works rather well" - or would do if there were trains when people wanted them and an infrastructure to support.  It also works the other way - for road traffic coming off the current M48 junction at Aust and the upcoming M49 junction to park up and use local trains into Bristol - and perhaps into the south Wales cities too?   Looking at the Severnside connection for passengers, Pilning platforms with access to the B4055 is just a few hundred yards walk to the start of that employment development at Westgate, and that access is already served by a bus that takes in major business and commercial destinations.


We had a number of visitors from the Bristol area and Gloucestershire, but none that I spoke with and would have considered to be there to primarily represent FoSBR, or who identified themselves as such to me.   But the fosBr - the B is Bristol - and you have plenty Bristol to be getting on with  ;) and it was a very busy meeting!

You mention Westbury - significant talk of that, of course, including the immediate and fall out effects MetroWest reaching there. The daily commuter flow from Frome and West Wilts into Bath / Bristol is significant, and set and planned to grow. Please do take a look at the presentations from the day and annual report, via http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=19577.msg236776#msg236776

Short term, not going very far today, overrunning engineering works between BPW and BTM.

BPW - Bristol Parkway
BRI - Bristol Temple Meads. Not BTM.

I appreciate that the canonical code for Bristol Temple Meads is BRI, and thats the rail industry standard, but the wider public standard for abbreviations and acronyms is to take the first letter of each word and use that.   Of course, that could be harmfully confusing if the resultant abbreviation was a valid station code, but in this case it's not.

You could indeed argue that BRI is a vey poor public abbreviation for Bristol Temple Meads, as in a different context people would feel it equally applies to Bristol Temple Meads, Bristol Parkway, Bridlington and Brixton.

You want consistency and accuracy or not? Whether there is confusion in this case is moot. If three letter codes are to be used then surely its important that the correct industry standard ones are used. Otherwise the next time I go to Birmingham and explain the ticket loophole I'm using to save money I can add confusion by referring to my destination as BNS. Then a walk to BMS or BSH for onward travel.

What about the request that short codes are explained the first time they are used in a thread/post?

Sorry I used the wrong code, I was thinking about my next Easyjet flight from BRI (the airport) or is it BRS, somewhere I got it written down that BRI or was it BRS was for internal flights or was it international flights but now it standardised as BRS or is it BRI but when we 'ere in Brizzle we refer to BRI as the Bristol Royal Infirmary.

Brixham anyone.

Yes - "of course" - putting words into the mouth of the admin and moderator team, but I think I'm on safe ground, we would like to see consistency and accuracy.  Except it's not quite that simple, is it?  

We run a forum that's a friendly place, where posters are welcomed even if they're not 100% in-the-know on the technical stuff on which they post to be 100% accurate with station, Tiploc, airport, train, coach, ticket code.  We don't mind a few spilling mistooks - indeed if we did, I would have been banned years ago. And we certainly don't want to have a place that has such an aura of accuracy that newcomers are put off posting, and established hands think to themselves "do I really want to bother?"

Where a post does end up being misleading / confusing (you cite an example of Barnes, Bushey and Bromley South), then of course the balance is probably towards correcting it, typically via a gentle message to the original poster from the moderator / admin team, or a subtle reply that clarifies what was said in context.  If you feel that the team hasn't noticed something, you have a notify button through which we can be alerted, or you can use the personal message system to one of us.    We appreciate hearing such things where members think there's good cause, though (and it has never happened in my memory) harassing the team though over-reporting would be a different problem.  It's all about balance. 


Indeed, and perfectly valid request, but only that.  Trumped by a requirement not to harass people / post in such a way that they feel threatened which (alas) is all too easy to do.  We work hard here to make this a friendly place, as well as being a place where we've built up an accurate archive.   Hope we have the balance right - accuracy of archive is no good if the place is so unforgiving in the first place that no-one dares post.

As this is a somewhat unjoined issue, I have edited my previous post to bring it up as a separate comment

New topic, but still relating to your post ... noting your public strap line:


I took a look at your posts over the past couple of days, and beyond a difference of opinion as to whether "sh*t", "go*n" and "b*stard" used about a member of operational staff was used in a context that was a personal attack on him, I can't see anything that our team or members hear might have said to cause you upset, nor anywhere we have locked threads or prevented you from writing "in your own defence".    Your strap line is public - indeed it looks like a public accusation and probably against "authority" here; please offer us an opportunity to defend ourselves by letting us know what your issue is, or making it very clear that the comment does not relate to this place. 

Indeed, and that's the concern for us living in North East Bristol...  without the loop option we're literally cut off from direct services to the whole of the SVB line.  Our nearest local convenient station either by bus or to use as a park and ride is BPW.  With a Henbury spur, the only access for us to CFN - for example which a mate of mine wanted to use as a much easier commute for him once the loop opening was completed - is to get a train south from BPW and change at BRI or SRD and wait for a train back up the SVB line, which is obviously not a viable option.  The same goes for anyone travelling from YAE

The Filton Diamond is a very interesting planning and timetabling issue - with six possible routes for trains (twelve if you count each way separate) through it.  On each of four arrival lines you have three departure directions.   Which ones to serve?    Serve them all and you thin out services, perhaps to the extent you put people off using the train?

Even on a triangle junction you have the same issue - three entrances, two exits and do you want to run passenger trains around all sides, at the risk of them being too thin to be useful, or leave one side out and make for connections?  I'm minded of the discussion we have going on in another thread about Newport;  with 1 train per hour from Ebbw Vale, it probably makes sense to have a single route (Cardiff has been chosen), but with 2, one to Cardiff and one to Newport seems to be more sensible - bearing in mind that a change at Newport would provide a good connection to Cardiff seeing as trains are quite frequent on the main line.

You may very well think that. I couldn't possibly comment.