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Journey by Journey => London to Didcot, Oxford and Banbury => Topic started by: bradshaw on April 19, 2018, 06:04:17 pm



Title: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: bradshaw on April 19, 2018, 06:04:17 pm
Just seen on Twitter,
Philip Haigh states
GWR to bring 19 tri-mode Class 769 4-car trains to Reading-Oxford and Reading-Gatwick services from next spring. Will run on AC and DC electrification and diesel. Will initially support introduction of refurbed trains to Heathrow Express.

https://twitter.com/philatrail/status/987002846846636032?s=21


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on April 19, 2018, 06:34:14 pm
‘Reading to Oxford’ presumably means the peak Reading-Oxford services that are Turbo operated as well as possibly some of the Oxford to Didcot shuttles?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: stuving on April 19, 2018, 07:00:20 pm
Here, in answer to my earlier quibble about the status of this news, it is from Rail (https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/nineteen-tri-mode-flex-class-769s-for-gwr):
Quote
Nineteen tri-mode Flex Class 769s for GWR
19/04/2018 in Network
(https://storage.railmagazine.com/website/1/root/gwr-4k-210417_w268.jpg)
Nineteen tri-mode Class 769 Flex units will enter traffic with Great Western Railway from Spring 2019.

They will be able to operate using third-rail, overhead wires or diesel engines, and will be used initially to support GWR’s introduction of refurbished Class 387/1s on Heathrow Express.

They will feature free WiFi and power at every seat. The trains will be fitted with air-cooling, extra luggage space and new seat covers.

GWR said in a statement: “Initially, the fleet will support the introduction of refreshed trains on Heathrow Express services, but will be predominantly be used on routes between Reading and Gatwick, and Reading and Oxford, where the train’s tri-mode can be used to its fullest. However, the tri-mode nature of the train will give GWR maximum flexibility to use them in other areas of the network should they be required.

“Final details of exactly how and where the new fleet will be used are currently being drawn up, and expected to be finalised later this year.”

GWR Managing Director, Mark Hopwood said: “We are already delivering the biggest fleet upgrade in a generation across the Great Western network, but today’s news shows we have not stopped looking at ways to improve our service for customers by adding extra capacity to our network.”

Mary Grant, CEO of Porterbrook, said: “These trains will offer GWR greater operational flexibility with reduced operating costs; at the same time their conversion and upgrade will see skilled engineering jobs secured in the UK supply chain.”

The four-car trains will be converted from redundant Class 319 electric multiple units. This releases a similar number of Class 165/’166’ Turbos for use in the Bristol area.

    The FULL story will appear in RAIL 852, published on May 9, and available digitally from May 5 on Android/iPad.
    To read about the initial Flex concept, read RAIL 818, available digitally.

    Author:  Richard Clinnick


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on April 19, 2018, 07:09:42 pm
It is, obviously, good news to get more capacity.  Just the extra strain on crew training, and the reliability and power of the units themselves that cast a bit of a shadow in my opinion.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: ray951 on April 19, 2018, 08:55:00 pm
I suppose I should be grateful about the increase in capacity, but I can't help feeling we are being sold a pup.
These trains are untested, will require more training, will be slower than 387 and probably 165, are 30 years old (older than 165/166) and have no air conditioning. If they at so good why are they being removed from their current services. Wouldn't it be simpler to complete the electrification to Oxford and use the 319 ( no need to undertake the hybrid conversion) on the short service to Heathrow.
Of course we all know with the current Secretary of State that he will do anything to get a private company to spend money (ie the leasing company) rather than spend public money ( ie Network Rail).
Rant over.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Oberon on April 19, 2018, 09:35:25 pm
I think The Dept for Transport, or whatever it's called these days, will do just about anything to defer or bin the idea of electrifying to Oxford. And this is a good example of that..


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: paul7575 on April 19, 2018, 10:25:44 pm
‘Reading to Oxford’ presumably means the peak Reading-Oxford services that are Turbo operated as well as possibly some of the Oxford to Didcot shuttles?
Henley and Windsor branches perhaps?  If they are sensible they’ll keep them out of the full glare of publicity, ie not go to Paddington...

Paul


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on April 19, 2018, 11:10:31 pm
Quote
will be slower than 387 and probably 165

As EMU's the 319's were 100mph units, weren't they?

So, yes a bit slower than a 387, but a bit quicker than a Turbo, although true to say we don't know what their speed will be under diesel power?

Kind of irrelevant on the North Downs anyway, as I don't think there is any linespeed above 70?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on April 19, 2018, 11:18:25 pm
As EMU's the 319's were 100mph units, weren't they?

So, yes a bit slower than a 387, but a bit quicker than a Turbo, although true to say we don't know what their speed will be under diesel power?

Kind of irrelevant on the North Downs anyway, as I don't think there is any linespeed above 70?

100mph yes, but very slow accelerating compared with modern electric units (though probably slightly better than a Turbo).  Maximum speed on diesel is expected to be in the 90+mph area I believe, but how long it takes to get to that value remains to be seen - along with how it'll cope with accelerating on the gradients of the North Downs.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: grahame on April 19, 2018, 11:21:31 pm
Quote
will be slower than 387 and probably 165

As EMU's the 319's were 100mph units, weren't they?

So, yes a bit slower than a 387, but a bit quicker than a Turbo, although true to say we don't know what their speed will be under diesel power?

Kind of irrelevant on the North Downs anyway, as I don't think there is any linespeed above 70?

Top speed under diesel - two conflicting views - 80mph and 86mph .   Bear in mind that the more important question may be how quickly the trains get up to a decent speed rather than the top speed that ca be reached.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: ray951 on April 20, 2018, 09:34:58 am
The 769 in electric are surely going to be much slower to accelerate than a 319 as they will weigh much more.
They will have the weight of the diesel engines and all the ancillaries (exhausts, radiators,etc), fuel, air cooling equipment, wifi equipment, etc.
Weight impacts on acceleration and not top speed (it just takes much longer to get there).

Also these trains are already 30 years how long do they expect them to last?
Won't they become the oldest trains on the network soon (except for Isle of Wight and class 150)?

Does anyone know what the rationale was for removing them from their current duties? Was it just age and lack of modern facilities such as air-con?



Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: nickswift99 on April 20, 2018, 12:05:56 pm
Class 700 replaced the 319s. The 319s don't support ATO which is needed for high density operations in the Thameslink core and there weren't enough sets to cover all of the new Thameslink routes so it made sense to get rid of them and have a single standard fleet.

It'll be a real blast from the past for me as I remember the 319s being introduced into service as the first non-slam door stock on the Brighton Main Line. They were a real step up from the VEPs and CIGs.

I also remember the 165/6 introduction which was another leap from the Class 101 DMUs. However, the 319s were never as nice internally as the 165/6 IMHO, primarily due to the wider loading gauge on the 165/6 which provided a roomer interior.

If this story is true, it does beg the question why 800s are going to be used on the Bedwyn services, when one of these sets could easily run to Newbury/Reading.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on April 20, 2018, 12:57:12 pm
Quote
If this story is true, it does beg the question why 800s are going to be used on the Bedwyn services

Indeed, and one wonders whether a 4-coach 769 would fit in the Bedwyn turnback without need to extend it (which as far as I know work has yet to start on)?

Is an 8-coach 769 longer or shorter than an 8-coach 387? (which is what the platform extensions at Thatcham and Theale are being extended to accommodate)

Also (while I'm at it!), will a 4-coach 769 fit at some of the smaller stations on the North Downs?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: didcotdean on April 20, 2018, 02:00:49 pm
Although I share the reservations of how well these might be able to work in practice until demonstrated, I do at least commend the action of getting more stock to help patch over some of the holes at least in the short (and sadly probably the medium) term left by the Electrification debacle. My only fear there is that there aren't really enough.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: nickswift99 on April 20, 2018, 02:37:32 pm
Quote
If this story is true, it does beg the question why 800s are going to be used on the Bedwyn services

Indeed, and one wonders whether a 4-coach 769 would fit in the Bedwyn turnback without need to extend it (which as far as I know work has yet to start on)?

Is an 8-coach 769 longer or shorter than an 8-coach 387? (which is what the platform extensions at Thatcham and Theale are being extended to accommodate)

Also (while I'm at it!), will a 4-coach 769 fit at some of the smaller stations on the North Downs?

A 4 car 319 is roughly 80 metres long. A 3 car 165 is 66m long and a 4 car 387 is roughly 81 metres.

I don't think the 319s ever had SDO fitted as they were typically run in 4 and 8 car sets and stopped at stations that could take 8 cars.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: ray951 on April 20, 2018, 03:20:32 pm
Quote
If this story is true, it does beg the question why 800s are going to be used on the Bedwyn services

Indeed, and one wonders whether a 4-coach 769 would fit in the Bedwyn turnback without need to extend it (which as far as I know work has yet to start on)?

Is an 8-coach 769 longer or shorter than an 8-coach 387? (which is what the platform extensions at Thatcham and Theale are being extended to accommodate)

Also (while I'm at it!), will a 4-coach 769 fit at some of the smaller stations on the North Downs?

A 4 car 319 is roughly 80 metres long. A 3 car 165 is 66m long and a 4 car 387 is roughly 81 metres.

I don't think the 319s ever had SDO fitted as they were typically run in 4 and 8 car sets and stopped at stations that could take 8 cars.
Appleford springs to mind as well.
I know there were plans to lengthen the stations between Didcot and Oxford including Appleford, but since electrification has been stopped nothing has happened. 


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: nickswift99 on April 20, 2018, 03:48:51 pm
Quote
If this story is true, it does beg the question why 800s are going to be used on the Bedwyn services

Indeed, and one wonders whether a 4-coach 769 would fit in the Bedwyn turnback without need to extend it (which as far as I know work has yet to start on)?

Is an 8-coach 769 longer or shorter than an 8-coach 387? (which is what the platform extensions at Thatcham and Theale are being extended to accommodate)

Also (while I'm at it!), will a 4-coach 769 fit at some of the smaller stations on the North Downs?

A 4 car 319 is roughly 80 metres long. A 3 car 165 is 66m long and a 4 car 387 is roughly 81 metres.

I don't think the 319s ever had SDO fitted as they were typically run in 4 and 8 car sets and stopped at stations that could take 8 cars.
Appleford springs to mind as well.
I know there were plans to lengthen the stations between Didcot and Oxford including Appleford, but since electrification has been stopped nothing has happened. 

The Sectional Appendix says that Appleford is 76m long so would still need extending for a 769.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: ray951 on April 20, 2018, 04:16:51 pm
I guess we don't know for certain how many seats would a class 769 have; looking at the data for a 319 it would have less than a 3 car 165 but more than a 2 car 165.
A 319 having 16F/256S (although this may vary between the different types) and a 2 car 165 having 170S/16F and a 3 car 264S/24F (although not sure whether this includes the changes to meet the disability requirements).


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: nickswift99 on April 20, 2018, 04:50:36 pm
Fundamentally, you're swapping width (3+2 seating) for length (2+2 seating).

You'll then lose seats for a DDA compliant toilet and apparently there's going to be more luggage space, so remove some more seats for that. Essentially, a 4 car 769 isn't going to have as many seats as a 165. It's only going to be marginally faster on electric (but will accelerate faster) and we've yet to see what its diesel performance will be like.

For the North Downs Line, or even an Oxford-Gatwick service (subject to capacity enhancements between Oxford/Didcot), I think this is a good option and the combination of diesel and third rail will suit it well.

I would be concerned about these trains running into Paddington as future traffic density will depend on acceleration and similar traction top speeds which these won't have.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: didcotdean on April 20, 2018, 04:59:32 pm
Elsewhere I have seen claims that the GWR 769s will have some 2+3 seating in the middle two carriages. Certainly over the years there were 319s with this type of seating.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: paul7575 on April 20, 2018, 06:07:33 pm
I would be concerned about these trains running into Paddington as future traffic density will depend on acceleration and similar traction top speeds which these won't have.

I think the recent rumours, and now taking this published announcement as more evidence, seem to support the view that they won’t normally go to Paddington.

Paul


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: onthecushions on April 20, 2018, 07:15:30 pm

IMHO the 319's are very good, BR designed trains, like all the 317 - 322 classes and still state of the art, even without inverter drives. As long as the flex conversion is done competently they'll last 60 years. The innards can let them down though but a modern refurbishment would be to higher standards than in past decades.

Remember the Tadpoles!

OTC


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: devonexpress on April 20, 2018, 09:52:15 pm
Aren't more 387's being released next year from C2C anyway? Surely a more streamlined fleet would be better for GWR, this only complicates it further, and then puts up the cost tickets in extra training, refresher training, parts etc.

What happened to the battery powered 379 that was going about in Greater Anglia? Surely Didcot to Oxford would be enough on batteries, and it could be recharged back on electric overheads?   Also GWR removed the 3rd rail, which could have been used on the Gatwick services. Either way, someone doesn't seem to have a lot of common sense here.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: grahame on April 20, 2018, 10:08:07 pm
Aren't more 387's being released next year from C2C anyway? Surely a more streamlined fleet would be better for GWR, this only complicates it further, and then puts up the cost tickets in extra training, refresher training, parts etc.

I'm sure GWR would love them. Just need to string up wires along the North Downs line and to Oxford, Windsor, Banbury and Henley.  ;D


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Adelante_CCT on April 20, 2018, 10:26:49 pm
Aren't more 387's being released next year from C2C anyway?
Likely to be during 2021


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: paul7575 on April 20, 2018, 10:40:25 pm
What happened to the battery powered 379 that was going about in Greater Anglia? Surely Didcot to Oxford would be enough on batteries, and it could be recharged back on electric overheads?   Also GWR removed the 3rd rail, which could have been used on the Gatwick services. Either way, someone doesn't seem to have a lot of common sense here.
Battery 379 was converted back after the trial.  Do you mean 387 shoegear? I don’t believe GWR removed their 387 pickup shoes.  I’ve seen a few people questioning online why it is still there, but all the recent deliveries still have shoebeams visible, although the actual shoes will be retracted, and all did DC testing on the Brighton line.

Paul


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: devonexpress on April 21, 2018, 09:00:06 am
What happened to the battery powered 379 that was going about in Greater Anglia? Surely Didcot to Oxford would be enough on batteries, and it could be recharged back on electric overheads?   Also GWR removed the 3rd rail, which could have been used on the Gatwick services. Either way, someone doesn't seem to have a lot of common sense here.
Battery 379 was converted back after the trial.  Do you mean 387 shoegear? I don’t believe GWR removed their 387 pickup shoes.  I’ve seen a few people questioning online why it is still there, but all the recent deliveries still have shoebeams visible, although the actual shoes will be retracted, and all did DC testing on the Brighton line.

Paul

I was told the shoegear was removed after testing on the Brighton Mainline? As for the Battery 379, where any test results handed out? Also wasn't it only operate a branchline service, where as if a battery power mode was fitted to the 387's they could then charge up from Didcot back up to Paddington.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on April 21, 2018, 09:13:57 am
I think there would be far too much risk operating a regular battery operated service on a key trunk route such as Didcot to Oxford.  Branch lines, yes, and then when the technology matures and proves itself then you can start to think about wider application.  The fact the 379 trial hasn’t come to anything so far perhaps indicates cost and/or reliability weren’t what they hoped for.

Regarding B&H services, the 769s with poor acceleration and ‘only’ 100mph top speed would impact on paths available for the fast Bedwyn’s.  Much better to be using the higher quality and 125mph capable 800/802s IMHO. 


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: paul7575 on April 21, 2018, 12:49:08 pm
I was told the shoegear was removed after testing on the Brighton Mainline...
I don’t think so.  What I’m seeing is that all the trains still have shoe-beams, as can easily be seen in the numerous videos available online.  The shoe arm is in the raised position when on AC, and the shoes themselves are nearly out of sight behind the shoe-beam.  Now the contact shoe itself can easily be removed from the arm as it is a wearing or sacrificial part, but it’s absence doesn’t really mean the DC capability is “removed”.   

Quote
As for the Battery 379, where any test results handed out? Also wasn't it only operate a branchline service, where as if a battery power mode was fitted to the 387's they could then charge up from Didcot back up to Paddington.
Nothing was ever made public AFAIK.  Suggests to me that the trial wasn’t as overwhelmingly successful as battery fans might have hoped.

Paul


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: 4064ReadingAbbey on April 21, 2018, 01:23:01 pm
I was told the shoegear was removed after testing on the Brighton Mainline...
I don’t think so.  What I’m seeing is that all the trains still have shoe-beams, as can easily be seen in the numerous videos available online.  The shoe arm is in the raised position when on AC, and the shoes themselves are nearly out of sight behind the shoe-beam.  Now the contact shoe itself can easily be removed from the arm as it is a wearing or sacrificial part, but it’s absence doesn’t really mean the DC capability is “removed”.   

Quote
As for the Battery 379, where any test results handed out? Also wasn't it only operate a branchline service, where as if a battery power mode was fitted to the 387's they could then charge up from Didcot back up to Paddington.
Nothing was ever made public AFAIK.  Suggests to me that the trial wasn’t as overwhelmingly successful as battery fans might have hoped.

Paul

If I understood an article in one of the technical magazines correctly - and, sorry, I can't remember the reference - the batteries from the 379 trial have been bought by Vivarail and are now being used for the battery packs for the Class 230 conversions.

As for the results of the 379 trial indications in the technical press were that it was shown to work. The snags being that the battery capacity was marginal for the task and the batteries are very expensive.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: devonexpress on April 21, 2018, 02:07:19 pm
Right, so had a good look on the internet.  IPEMU Class 379, Test was successful in that the battery would allow for 60 mile running before becoming empty.  Enough to do the Oxford to Didcot shuttle 6 times, or to allow for running in between non electrified sections of the Reading to Gatwick line. However, as it was only a short trial funded by Network Rail (NR), the batteries where removed after completion of the testing.  It now seems as has been posted Vivarail have taken on the technology. So if it proves to be successful in proper passenger service then who knows?

It just seems a shame that Bombarider, aren't using the trial as a benchmark for battery operated trains or if not haven't looked at retrofitting small diesel engines into the Class 387's for off wire power.


Edit: VickiS - Clarifying abbreviation


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: ChrisB on April 21, 2018, 05:19:27 pm
GWR have only mewntioned BAN-RDG, and RDG to GTW. so no PAD runs at all. I could easily see BAN-GTW services, utilising the underpass east of RDG to access the Guildford route.

It could also cover the Cotswold stopper too, releasing yet another turbo.

That would just leave the TV branches needing the odd turbo.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: didcotdean on April 21, 2018, 05:50:52 pm
There is currently one residual through Oxford-Paddington stopper (fast from/to Maidenhead) in each direction, up early morning and back evening peak. Not clear what would happen with this in a 'no turbo' scenario, apart from being binned.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: grahame on April 21, 2018, 06:19:55 pm
I could easily see BAN-GTW services, utilising the underpass east of RDG to access the Guildford route.

Onward dreams towards extending from Banbury to Birmingham, and from Gatwick to Brighton? 


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: grahame on April 21, 2018, 06:33:49 pm
There is currently one residual through Oxford-Paddington stopper (fast from/to Maidenhead) in each direction, up early morning and back evening peak. Not clear what would happen with this in a 'no turbo' scenario, apart from being binned.

GWR has a history (old and new companies) of extra stops in expresses on peak routes at busy commuter times and very late at night - witness extra stops at stations like Severn Tunnel Junction and Dilton Marsh.  As well as binning the service, would there be an option of starting a first service on am 802 diagram from Oxford somewhat ahead of the normal clock face to still provide a direct link to London, and reversing the process in the evening?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: ChrisB on April 21, 2018, 06:39:09 pm
I could easily see BAN-GTW services, utilising the underpass east of RDG to access the Guildford route.

Onward dreams towards extending from Banbury to Birmingham, and from Gatwick to Brighton? 

Yep, definitely a dream. Why the need to mirror XC on the former, and there line's full to Three Bridges at least, if not to Brighton. On an refreshed 319? That is likely to be the new 'pacer' in less than a decade.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: didcotdean on April 21, 2018, 07:08:02 pm
GWR has a history (old and new companies) of extra stops in expresses on peak routes at busy commuter times and very late at night - witness extra stops at stations like Severn Tunnel Junction and Dilton Marsh.  As well as binning the service, would there be an option of starting a first service on am 802 diagram from Oxford somewhat ahead of the normal clock face to still provide a direct link to London, and reversing the process in the evening?
The up service stops at the rare trifecta of Radley, Culham and Appleford although the down Radley only. I guess only Radley would ever even come into consideration for warranting stopping of a fast Oxford.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Electric train on April 21, 2018, 07:09:59 pm
What happened to the battery powered 379 that was going about in Greater Anglia? Surely Didcot to Oxford would be enough on batteries, and it could be recharged back on electric overheads?   Also GWR removed the 3rd rail, which could have been used on the Gatwick services. Either way, someone doesn't seem to have a lot of common sense here.
Battery 379 was converted back after the trial.  Do you mean 387 shoegear? I don’t believe GWR removed their 387 pickup shoes.  I’ve seen a few people questioning online why it is still there, but all the recent deliveries still have shoebeams visible, although the actual shoes will be retracted, and all did DC testing on the Brighton line.

Paul

387 have retractable shoe gear, therefore it looks like it has been removed but it has not.  It is not in GWR gift to remove the shoe gear as they do not own the units, the trains would need modifying as there are interlocks on the shoe gear.

The DfT want inter operable EMUs for redeployment etc.

Its unlikely 387 will be retrofitted with diesels, having batteries fitted to 3387 (and other units) is an option certainly on the DC network to capture the energy from regen braking to reduce the need for adding more traction substation capacity near stations ................ its a bit of work I have a loose involvement in at work


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: hassaanhc on April 21, 2018, 07:29:11 pm
There is currently one residual through Oxford-Paddington stopper (fast from/to Maidenhead) in each direction, up early morning and back evening peak. Not clear what would happen with this in a 'no turbo' scenario, apart from being binned.
There is also the 2P99 2006 Banbury to London Paddington, which stops at most stations on the way.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: didcotdean on April 21, 2018, 09:39:05 pm
Yes that one has to be part of the consideration as well, although it is a bit different from the other two. It does mean the direct connection to London for the BAN-OXF stations is a bit odd.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: paul7575 on April 22, 2018, 01:53:10 pm
Do you mean 387 shoegear? I don’t believe GWR removed their 387 pickup shoes.  I’ve seen a few people questioning online why it is still there, but all the recent deliveries still have shoebeams visible, although the actual shoes will be retracted, and all did DC testing on the Brighton line.

387 have retractable shoe gear, therefore it looks like it has been removed but it has not.
The very point I was just making.  A similar situation exists with some of the LM 350/1s, the shoes are still there but almost impossible to see at first glance.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on June 26, 2018, 09:46:51 pm
Anyone on our network know what's happening about these trains?

In the light of recent correspondence here about air condition/cooling, cascading of Turbo trains etc, I have done some Googling to  find out what specification we can expect. I ended up on something called RailUK Forums (a pale imitation of our own!) where there was much conflicting information as to the comfort of the trains from which they are being converted, and the delightful suggestion we should follow the French and call them Bi-Bis (rather than trimodes).

More significantly is the suggestion that there are problems with developing the trains - it is suggested that there is not yet a working prototype, and there may be problems with the conversion.

Should we start worrying? 


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 27, 2018, 12:48:55 am
I don’t think we should start worrying, but I do think we should keep a watchful eye as clearly the development programme is slipping.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Noggin on August 13, 2018, 06:45:49 pm
Anyone on our network know what's happening about these trains?

In the light of recent correspondence here about air condition/cooling, cascading of Turbo trains etc, I have done some Googling to  find out what specification we can expect. I ended up on something called RailUK Forums (a pale imitation of our own!) where there was much conflicting information as to the comfort of the trains from which they are being converted, and the delightful suggestion we should follow the French and call them Bi-Bis (rather than trimodes).

More significantly is the suggestion that there are problems with developing the trains - it is suggested that there is not yet a working prototype, and there may be problems with the conversion.

Should we start worrying? 

It depends on whether you are worried about them being introduced, or not being introduced ;-)

More seriously, the thread on WNXX has seen quite a lot of informed comment, including that of an ex-Alstom electrical engineer fairly well acquainted with them and a GWR manager. There were suggestions that whilst the issues with the traction kit may have been resolved, there may be more fundamental issues with the ability of the underframes to carry the extra weight. Wouldn't hold your breath waiting for their introduction, put it that way.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on August 16, 2018, 10:32:22 pm
Noggin  - the answer to your question is - both! It is a shame that the short-sighted decision to halt electrification has led to what appears to be a looming rolling stock crisis as the Turbos are cascaded to replace trains that are not too much older which are being transferred elsewhere, but services which were (presumably) assumed to be electrified by now (Didcot - Oxford, the Henley and Windsor branches) now have to be served by something that does not need OHL electicity. Recycled late 1980s stopgaps do not look an attractive substitute.

Does your source indicate if the problem is corrosion of these ageing trains, or simply that the weight of engines and generators is too much for the structure? Either way, it is not looking good.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Noggin on August 17, 2018, 02:33:33 pm
Noggin  - the answer to your question is - both! It is a shame that the short-sighted decision to halt electrification has led to what appears to be a looming rolling stock crisis as the Turbos are cascaded to replace trains that are not too much older which are being transferred elsewhere, but services which were (presumably) assumed to be electrified by now (Didcot - Oxford, the Henley and Windsor branches) now have to be served by something that does not need OHL electicity. Recycled late 1980s stopgaps do not look an attractive substitute.

Does your source indicate if the problem is corrosion of these ageing trains, or simply that the weight of engines and generators is too much for the structure? Either way, it is not looking good.

I believe that one of the original problems was one of electrical engineering - complications in having two motor/generator sets wired together, I believe the second was a combination of weight and corrosion. Shame, as the concept was quite a good one in theory.

Of course since the project was started, Stadler have entered the market with a UK version of the Flirt bi-mode (though apparently they are none too light either), so if they behave themselves when launched on Greater Anglia you have to wonder whether the prospective customers for the 769s will cut their losses and buy new trains.

The other thing to consider is that battery technology continues to advance, so it's not necessarily a bad thing for the Thames Valley branches to continue with Turbos for a few years until there's a mature solution. As for Oxford, isn't the plan that it will be wired, once the station has been rebuilt? Given that much of the line to Didcot has already been rebuilt and resignalled that *should* be a relatively quick and cheap job, which might encourage further work.     



Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 17, 2018, 02:45:37 pm
I can see a rebuilt station at Oxford being at least five years away.  Hopefully they can construct Platform 5, electrify, and then do the main station rebuild.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: grahame on September 17, 2018, 08:49:58 pm
First 769 Unit at Great Central Railway for testing



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ScTcNgt4cs


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: JayMac on September 18, 2018, 04:37:15 pm
Looks okay sat in a siding.

It was dragged to the GCR and is yet to run under its own power.

I'm still of the the opinion that it's the wrong answer to questions made up by Porterbrook though. I think they're selling a pup to the TOCs who have ordered them.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on September 18, 2018, 06:03:28 pm
I agree with BNM on this one, especially if they prove unreliable, and money is not spent on upgrading the interiors. Are they likely to be 5 across seating? But for what appears to be a shortage of suitable diesel units, we maybe better of keeping the Turbos for the duites for which they were designed and looking for some more comfortable stock for longer distance GWR services further west.

Incidentally, I assume the old green diesel shunter at one end is not part of the "trimode" element!


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 18, 2018, 06:15:19 pm
There are too many unknowns for me to be happy coming to any conclusions or yet.  It’s encouraging to see a train (and a smart looking train externally at least) finally ready for proper testing, worrying that’s it’s taken so long to get this far.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: JayMac on September 29, 2018, 03:39:42 pm
It lives!

The first Class 769 seen in the wild has moved under its own power for the first time, while testing on the Great Central Railway.

https://www.facebook.com/paul.biggs.7798/posts/10213648806877339


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: grahame on September 29, 2018, 05:35:34 pm
The first Class 769 seen in the wild ...

If you add a class 31 to the front of a 769, can you call it an "800" and use it InterCity?

Sorry - silly season


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: onthecushions on October 10, 2018, 10:02:18 pm

Looks like the 769 works...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcuNaAe8SOU

OTC


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on October 10, 2018, 11:19:25 pm
Acceleration, well, initial accelaration at least, looks better than I feared it might be.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on October 11, 2018, 08:44:06 am
Is it just me, but it still sounded like an EMU (traction motors?) as it was pulling away.

Acceleration looked better than a 16x.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: stuving on October 11, 2018, 12:49:37 pm
Acceleration, well, initial accelaration at least, looks better than I feared it might be.

Now, don't get all excited. The concern was that the output of the two engines, even before alternator and inverter losses, was well below the continuous rating of the motors. But the motors can't draw that much power at low speed; the prime power limit only cuts in once it's got going. So, for the standing start we saw there, it should do pretty well even with only one engine! (The extra weight will penalise it a little, though.)

What will be an interesting comparison will be with the Stadler bi-modes GA are getting - the 4-car ones are due to get 1920 kW of prime power, compared with less (maybe much less) than 800 in a 769.

To respond to Thatcham Crossing, those 319s are old, so use classic DC traction motors, and these ones (GEC G315BZ) are famous for their whine. I heard an engine in the first carriage (with its fan whine as prominent as the exhaust), the motors on the second, nothing on the third (but then neither pantograph nor transformer should made much noise) and expected to hear another engine in the fourth. I didn't, certainly not as loud as the first, so I'm not sure if it was not there, not running, or if the driver had throttled back by then.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Adelante_CCT on December 13, 2018, 05:27:35 pm
A class 319 has been arriving Reading TCD over the past few days (by road) for driver training/familiarisation


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on January 23, 2019, 10:36:47 pm
Quote

   
Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
« Reply #190 on: January 21, 2019, 10:34:02 pm »
Reply with quoteQuote
Quote from: eightonedee on January 21, 2019, 10:13:10 pm
1 - I sincerely hope that the Didcot/Oxford shuttle is only temporary. Indeed I understood the rationale of the bi-mode/trimode was to restore a proper full stopping service all the way between Reading and Oxford, mitigating the adverse impact of the dreadful decision to cut the electrification to Oxford short at Didcot.

2 - I am not so sure that the case for trains beyond Oxford all going west to Swindon/Bristol etc is strong. The potential passenger traffic from the Reading/Basingstoke/Winchester/Southampton/Bournemouth axis surely justifies a substantial part of any southward traffic going east. Reading alone generates considerable volume, and more capacity might encourage more to take the train not the car. I have over the years had a number of regular meeting commitments in Norfolk and Cambridgeshire and used the car to avoid the hassle of crossing London by tube at peak times.

1 - From what I’ve so far heard, the Tri-mode 769s will not be used on services to Oxford.  They will be used on Reading to Gatwick trains as well as covering for the loss of 387s to Heathrow Express on the Paddington to Didcot services, as well as possibly some of the Thames Valley branches.  That of course may not be the current plan, or it may be the current plan but will change.  I’ll see if I can find out.

Having realised that II and myself had indulged in a little "thread drift" on the East-West thread, I've brought this topic home.

This morning, during a mildly frustrating commute (one delay, resulting in missed connection, next onward train cancelled - near half hour wait at Reading) I arrived at the end of platforms 4-6, to find the duty manager and a GWR "suit" who introduced himself as Mark (not that one!) discussing erecting barriers in the vicinity. Concerned that someone might have thought it a good idea to introduce another internal gate line, thereby making it even more of a challenge to make my connections in the limited time often available, I butted in to enquire, and was relieved to hear that it was some movable tape barriers to help deal with future Reading - Paddington closures and diverting London bound passengers to Waterloo.

We had a chat about some concerns, during which I was told that GWR did intend to introduce class 769 bi-modes to restore a full Reading- Oxford stopping service in the coming year. Furthermore I was told GWR still hoped to introduce a third service each hour on the North Downs line, preferably a semi-fast Gatwick and some to run from Oxford.

Incidentally there seems a growing collection of ex-Thameslink 319s at Reading depot, but as far as I can see from the passing train they don't look to have any additional underfloor gubbins by way of diesel engines, generators etc. Anyone know why?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 23, 2019, 11:31:04 pm
We had a chat about some concerns, during which I was told that GWR did intend to introduce class 769 bi-modes to restore a full Reading- Oxford stopping service in the coming year. Furthermore I was told GWR still hoped to introduce a third service each hour on the North Downs line, preferably a semi-fast Gatwick and some to run from Oxford.

Well, I do hope they are correct as I would love to see a full Reading to Oxford stopping service restored this year, but I suspect that won't happen, indeed I doubt the full order of 769s will even be delivered this year!  If it does come about, I hope it doesn't come at the expense of losing any direct stopping services between stations east and west of Reading that the current Didcot to Paddington service covers.  If the status quo remains in that respect, and all of the Paddington to Didcot stoppers are extended to Oxford then you need 9 units just to cover the current 30-minute frequency with a 4-car train - sounds unlikely to me. 

If you were to just run them between Reading and Oxford then you could cover them with 5 4-car units which is more plausible, but more challenging operationally juggling platforms at Reading.  The best I personally think that can be hoped for is that the existing Reading to Oxford peak and shoulder peak through services become operated by 769s.  Should I find anything out for definite I will keep you updated.

Incidentally there seems a growing collection of ex-Thameslink 319s at Reading depot, but as far as I can see from the passing train they don't look to have any additional underfloor gubbins by way of diesel engines, generators etc. Anyone know why?

They are there for depot staff familiarisation with regard to learning how to maintain them as of course they share many of the components the 796s will arrive with.  I have heard that the option to press them and other spare 319s into service to cover for the 387s going to HEx conversion might well be taken up, though I have also heard that spare IETs not required until the big timetable change next January might also cover the impending 387 shortage.  I guess at least that means GWR have two possible solutions to that particular problem.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on January 24, 2019, 10:09:25 pm
Thanks for that. I guess we are used to aspirational dates not being met!

Speaking personally/selfishly (but I guess on behalf of most Tilehurst to Cholsey travellers), I think I/we would prefer going back to most services having only limited or no stops between Reading and Paddington to cut journey times to London without changing at Reading. From the Crossrail publicity it seems that when (eventually) Elizabeth Line starts there will only be 2 GWR "stopping" trains each hour off peak running east of Reading (see-http://74f85f59f39b887b696f-ab656259048fb93837ecc0ecbcf0c557.r23.cf3.rackcdn.com/assets/library/document/e/original/elizabeth_line_service_pattern-reading_to_central_london.pdfng), and these stopping only at Twyford, Maidenhead and Slough, so we could eventually achieve that.




Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on March 30, 2019, 01:32:05 pm
Quote
Any update on the departure of the 153s?

.....or any update on the arrival of the 769s?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: bobm on March 30, 2019, 03:01:07 pm
Two unconverted 319s have arrived at Reading Depot so driver training can start.

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/319rdg.jpg)

The first converted 769 is due in July


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: ray951 on March 30, 2019, 07:06:54 pm
Two unconverted 319s have arrived at Reading Depot so driver training can start.

The first converted 769 is due in July
I notice you didn't say which year. 😀😀

And does anybody know whether these are destined for Reading - Didcot - Oxford - Banbury services?

And if not, what has GWR got planned for that route given that most services have gone backwards, in terms of numbers of seats, since electrification  was cancelled/postponed and most 3 car 165/166 sent west?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: bobm on March 30, 2019, 07:18:47 pm
By April next year GWR hope to have 19 class 769s.  Clearly the North Downs service doesn't need that many so obviously some will be used elsewhere but I haven't seen any definitive plans.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: grahame on February 13, 2020, 11:59:47 am
Just posted ... rumour of delivery.   It's been so long this thread was dormant!

Quote
Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days.
Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic.

Rumour has it that the first 769 will be delivered in May (now September) but won't be in service until December at the earliest.

Also Network Rail are saying it will have to run on Diesel power, all the way from Oxford to Gatwick! Due to incompatible electricfication.

This is despite a good portion of the route having third rail or 25Kv electrification and the 769s as 319s having worked successfully as bimode electrics from Bedford to Brighton for many years.

Moderators i tried to find the 769 thread but it did't come up so please move.
 


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Fourbee on February 13, 2020, 01:42:48 pm
I remember when the turbos were delivered, the brand new smell, fresh NSE paint job, working aircon on the 166s (well, for a time at least)...compared to the heritage DMUs they replaced they were a step change.

Will I be able to say the same this time round?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Timmer on February 13, 2020, 05:48:13 pm
If this rumour is true than that’s an absolute joke that the 769s won’t be able to run on electricity which is the whole point of a trimode train!

That’s an embarrassment but then the railways are good at that.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Electric train on February 13, 2020, 07:29:06 pm

Rumour has it that the first 769 will be delivered in May (now September) but won't be in service until December at the earliest.

Also Network Rail are saying it will have to run on Diesel power, all the way from Oxford to Gatwick! Due to incompatible electricfication.

This is despite a good portion of the route having third rail or 25Kv electrification and the 769s as 319s having worked successfully as bimode electrics from Bedford to Brighton for many years.
 

The reason may be due to a number of things,  The 769 (ex319) Pan may not be passed to operate on GW, the traction package may have some EMC issues on GW and SR Wessex route.

The GW route may not have the clearance for the third rail shoe gear (the 387 shoe gear is retractable)

The testing of the incompatibilities is paid for by the TOC as would be the enabling the GW route for shoe gear


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eXPassenger on February 13, 2020, 10:57:22 pm
Surely GWR would have considered Electric Train's points before ordering a few trimode trains?  If they cannot use the AC or DC inputs on the 769 why use them over pure diesels?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 13, 2020, 11:05:22 pm
They should be fine on AC - though with limited opportunities to use it.  There is a massive scarcity of pure diesel trains (other than new orders, which isn’t really an option for any franchises under a short-term direct award), so it’s as much about capacity as anything else.

Though it will be a great shame if they can’t use DC, even if not immediately.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on February 14, 2020, 12:38:20 am
Quote
Though it will be a great shame if they can’t use DC, even if not immediately.

It is just one of many "great shames" about this whole episode. At least Vivarail have the excuse of being a small scale start up, whereas Wabtec are meant to be one of the world's leading suppliers of rolling stock. There seems to be a message here - don't think that recycling old trains will be a quick method of providing much-needed rolling stock. It seems no quicker than starting form scratch.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: grahame on February 14, 2020, 04:52:14 am
They should be fine on AC - though with limited opportunities to use it.  There is a massive scarcity of pure diesel trains (other than new orders, which isn’t really an option for any franchises under a short-term direct award), so it’s as much about capacity as anything else.

Though it will be a great shame if they can’t use DC, even if not immediately.

To be clear .... that's runnable pure diesel trains, isn't it?  We're seeing pictures of Pacers being cut up, and the first High Speed Train (HST) set has gone for scrap while others are stored at Ely and Long Marston.   Those are far from what's now regarded as ideal modern trains but where it "has had to" the government has used its dispensations to allow the old stuff to continue in service for a while.


Edit: VickiS - Clarifying acronyms


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: mjones on February 14, 2020, 07:29:59 am
If they can only run on diesel,  can they match 165/6 performance on the  North Downs line? Indeed, just on the fairly flat Didcot to Reading run they could struggle to fit in around electric services.  To see journey times worsen after such an expensive electrification programme is going be embarrassing.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 14, 2020, 10:51:09 am
If they can only run on diesel,  can they match 165/6 performance on the  North Downs line? Indeed, just on the fairly flat Didcot to Reading run they could struggle to fit in around electric services.  To see journey times worsen after such an expensive electrification programme is going be embarrassing.

On the North Downs, nearly but not quite I think.  They currently aren’t planned to be used between Didcot and Reading, though if they were that could be under AC.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Electric train on February 14, 2020, 06:28:15 pm
They should be fine on AC - though with limited opportunities to use it.  There is a massive scarcity of pure diesel trains (other than new orders, which isn’t really an option for any franchises under a short-term direct award), so it’s as much about capacity as anything else.

Though it will be a great shame if they can’t use DC, even if not immediately.

Depends on the traction pack and the levels of signal immunisation, just needs to acceptance to be carried out, but the TOC has to pay to have this done and the NoBo


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: stuving on February 14, 2020, 07:16:48 pm
They should be fine on AC - though with limited opportunities to use it.  There is a massive scarcity of pure diesel trains (other than new orders, which isn’t really an option for any franchises under a short-term direct award), so it’s as much about capacity as anything else.

Though it will be a great shame if they can’t use DC, even if not immediately.

Depends on the traction pack and the levels of signal immunisation, just needs to acceptance to be carried out, but the TOC has to pay to have this done and the NoBo

I presume that's a reference to proving on additional routes, after the "new" train has been approved (with all that paperwork) and tested somewhere at Porterbrook's cost. I found this in a Rail Engineer article (https://www.railengineer.uk/2018/09/27/bi-mode-good-tri-mode-better/) (which isn't responding now) - from a visit/interview mainly with Helen Simpson (engineering innovation and development manager of Porterbrook):
Quote
Approvals

Helen talked about the compliance and approval process. The modification is not considered an upgrade or renewal and does not require authorisation under the common safety method for risk evaluation and assessment, although this process has been voluntarily applied as a robust means of managing safety. SNC-Lavalin is providing integrated Notified Body, Designated Body and Assessment Body services.

Full details of this process would justify its own article, and Helen described some of the challenges applying the approval process mandated by the Technical Standards for Interoperability (TSI) regulations on a 30-year-old train. For example, TSI noise requirements do not apply, but pass-by noise will be compared to other DMUs operating the same services on the route; in the case of the Northern trains, this means comparing with the Class 15X units. Porterbrook needs to show it is no worse, but is actually aiming for it to be a demonstrable improvement. This, and other type approval testing, was expected to be carried out at the nearby Great Central Railway.

Of course they may have discovered Hofstadter's law applies to Network Rail's (NR's) approvals requirements.

The plan was to not change the traction at all, just feed it from an on-board generator-alternator-converter. Rather oddly, the shoe gear would be put somewhere new (and perhaps be new itself?). But something must have delayed the programme - by what, a year and a bit? - and that might include some rethinking of that plan, though I've not seen any mention of it.

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying abbreviation


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: SandTEngineer on February 14, 2020, 09:50:45 pm
According to info posted elsewhere there are going to be 19 class 769s and a naming list has been drawn up based on mythical characters. ::)


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightf48544 on February 15, 2020, 10:02:38 am
According to info posted elsewhere there are going to be 19 class 769s and a naming list has been drawn up based on mythical characters. ::)

Very appropriate.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: grahame on February 15, 2020, 10:52:42 am
According to info posted elsewhere there are going to be 19 class 769s and a naming list has been drawn up based on mythical characters. ::)

Very appropriate.

Quite a few have been used before ... https://www.sparknotes.com/lit/mythology/characters/ may give some ideas.

I was wondering how serious the original suggestion was.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Electric train on February 16, 2020, 12:01:23 pm
They should be fine on AC - though with limited opportunities to use it.  There is a massive scarcity of pure diesel trains (other than new orders, which isn’t really an option for any franchises under a short-term direct award), so it’s as much about capacity as anything else.

Though it will be a great shame if they can’t use DC, even if not immediately.

Depends on the traction pack and the levels of signal immunisation, just needs to acceptance to be carried out, but the TOC has to pay to have this done and the NoBo

I presume that's a reference to proving on additional routes, after the "new" train has been approved (with all that paperwork) and tested somewhere at Porterbrook's cost. I found this in a Rail Engineer article (https://www.railengineer.uk/2018/09/27/bi-mode-good-tri-mode-better/) (which isn't responding now) - from a visit/interview mainly with Helen Simpson (engineering innovation and development manager of Porterbrook):
Quote
Approvals

Helen talked about the compliance and approval process. The modification is not considered an upgrade or renewal and does not require authorisation under the common safety method for risk evaluation and assessment, although this process has been voluntarily applied as a robust means of managing safety. SNC-Lavalin is providing integrated Notified Body, Designated Body and Assessment Body services.

Full details of this process would justify its own article, and Helen described some of the challenges applying the approval process mandated by the Technical Standards for Interoperability (TSI) regulations on a 30-year-old train. For example, TSI noise requirements do not apply, but pass-by noise will be compared to other DMUs operating the same services on the route; in the case of the Northern trains, this means comparing with the Class 15X units. Porterbrook needs to show it is no worse, but is actually aiming for it to be a demonstrable improvement. This, and other type approval testing, was expected to be carried out at the nearby Great Central Railway.

Of course they may have discovered Hofstadter's law applies to NR's approvals requirements.

The plan was to not change the traction at all, just feed it from an on-board generator-alternator-converter. Rather oddly, the shoe gear would be put somewhere new (and perhaps be new itself?). But something must have delayed the programme - by what, a year and a bit? - and that might include some rethinking of that plan, though I've not seen any mention of it.

The 319's did not necessary have universal route clearance, the were never cleared for instance to operate through Canal Tunnels (the new Thameslink between the ECML and St Pancras) Rolling stock does not always have route clearance under "grandfather rights" on new (to it) routes


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on April 26, 2020, 07:08:08 pm
Quote
Quote from: eightonedee on Today at 04:40:08 pm
Quote
A quick look at the North Downs Line timetable suggests to me that there are 10 daily diagrams or so on that line; not sure how many are pairs of units, though.

The short answer "none" I think. The 769s would (when they eventually arrive!) be useful for Reading-Oxford services as a  replacement for the Turbos used there. I think that there are currently some two unit services on this service - one I used to catch, albeit with one locked out of use to avoid people falling out at Appleford.

No plans to use 769s west of Reading.  Virtually all will be confined to North Downs duties, which will release the 16 Turbos for cascade west.

II's reply sums up the sorry saga that has unfolded as set out in this thread. OK, they will probably not arrive as last promised this month due to Covid 19. But when they do, we will have tri-mode trains that will not be able to run on electric for most of the electrified part of the North Downs route, and from what our learned friend Stuving has told us may have traction problems on a route that is relatively steeply graded in parts in adverse rail head conditions. However, the OHL equipment will remain largely (entirely?) unused, while diesels still ply the part electrified route between Reading and Oxford.

Is that really a satisfactory outcome?   


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on June 17, 2020, 07:16:56 pm
Quote
Meanwhile from the Sheffield Star

Quote
Fury over plans to axe 450 workers at Doncaster rail factory
Plans to axe up to 450 jobs at a Doncaster rail maintenance factory have been blasted by a union which claimed they had been ‘smuggled out under the cloak of the Covid-19 crisis’.

and

Quote
Odd that ... Wabtec have a queue of work and are laying off lots of staff ...

Appropriate prompts - what's the latest on the delivery of the 769s?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 17, 2020, 08:08:15 pm
GWR’s first is expected to arrive next month AIUI.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: grahame on June 17, 2020, 08:26:00 pm
Appropriate prompts - what's the latest on the delivery of the 769s?

GWR’s first is expected to arrive next month AIUI.

I wondered if I had missed "first revenue earning service" anywhere, but I don't think so:

Northern - Driver training started (or was planned to start) February 2020
Transport for Wales - entering service "some time in 2020".  Understand testing from mid March
Great Western - noting arrival date above (thank you II) - Wikipedia says "eventually"
Rail Operations Group - in service in 2020.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 17, 2020, 09:47:04 pm
I suspect it’ll be a fair while yet before any enter service on GWR.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: grahame on July 29, 2020, 05:05:22 pm
GWR’s first is expected to arrive next month AIUI.

Tomorrow - 30th July.
10:27 from Loughborough, onto GWR territory at Banbury at 14:14, Reading Traincare Depot 15:24.
(( https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K05794/2020-07-30/detailed ))

The training ... when will it carry passengers?



Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 30, 2020, 10:55:54 am
Delivery cancelled until the second week of August according to a poster on Railforums

The training ... when will it carry passengers?

It'll no doubt be a while as there is still a ban (emergencies excepted) on more than one person in a cab at a time, although a trial solution to that issue is in the pipeline.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: TonyN on August 08, 2020, 01:04:01 pm
A 769 unit was moved South through Banbury yesterday by 50007 and 50049.

This is reported to be 769943 on its way to Reading as 5Z69 but I have not found it on Realtime trains.

Picture here on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3356919184365881&set=gm.3159948040762940&type=3&theater&ifg=1 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3356919184365881&set=gm.3159948040762940&type=3&theater&ifg=1)


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: grahame on August 08, 2020, 01:14:43 pm

This is reported to be 769943 on its way to Reading as 5Z69 but I have not found it on Realtime trains.


https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/44324/2020-08-07/detailed


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: ellendune on August 08, 2020, 01:44:19 pm
A 769 unit was moved South through Banbury yesterday by 50007 and 50049.

This is reported to be 769943 on its way to Reading as 5Z69 but I have not found it on Realtime trains.

Picture here on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3356919184365881&set=gm.3159948040762940&type=3&theater&ifg=1 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3356919184365881&set=gm.3159948040762940&type=3&theater&ifg=1)

Double headed! - was it that heavy?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: bradshaw on August 08, 2020, 02:09:32 pm
Video on Twitter

https://twitter.com/thesatnav89/status/1291791735979421701?s=21


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on August 08, 2020, 06:48:39 pm
Oh - will we get nicely refurbished class 50s to help them up and down all those pesky gradients on the North Downs line? - perhaps something to look forward to after all! It'll take me back to my days commuting from Tilehurst in the 1980s.......


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 08, 2020, 06:51:04 pm
Lovely engines...when not breaking down!


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: grahame on August 08, 2020, 07:09:35 pm
Double headed! - was it that heavy?

There's quite a recent history of running a train with 2 locomotives, perhaps where it's not needed.   Started in - what - the mid 1970s when the Westerns and Warships (occasionally used in 2-s) were replaced by single-ended locos on either end of a rake or 6 to 8 carriages.   It come down to removing the need to run round and, as these things get older and spare locos to help in the event of a failure become rare as hen's teeth.   The only problem with an 8 car rake running with one loco duff is "Does not stop at Totnes".

Nuclear flask trains have 2 locos, andI've noticed that steam specials seem to have a spare diesel loco on the back too ... much of it perhaps again relating to reliability, lack of thunderbirds, and all the extra money that Network Rail will charge you if you block the line until you manage to find someone to get you out of the way.   2nd loco every time probably cheaper than risking failure - insurance if you like.

Wish they would add a second loco on heavy freight up the Berks and Hants.   Those trains seem sit down all too often for a very long and leasurly break, flooding the TransWilts with trains that don't even stop ...

Sorry eightonedee - don't expect you'll see 2 times class 50 on the North Downs trains.   Would one be OK?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on August 08, 2020, 08:43:16 pm
Grahame
I almost thought, yes I would, but then thought of the line between Reigate and Shalford junction or between Ash and Wokingham being blocked by a failed loco.....


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightf48544 on August 09, 2020, 03:21:12 pm

Nuclear flask trains have 2 locos, andI've noticed that steam specials seem to have a spare diesel loco on the back too ... much of it perhaps again relating to reliability, lack of thunderbirds, and all the extra money that Network Rail will charge you if you block the line until you manage to find someone to get you out of the way.   2nd loco every time probably cheaper than risking failure - insurance if you like.

Re steam specials I thought the diesel was there to supply compressed air for the train brakes when the loco doesn't have a Westinghouse pump as well as backup. It will also be there to take the stock away if the journey finishes at a terminal station.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: paul7575 on August 10, 2020, 01:23:54 pm

Nuclear flask trains have 2 locos, andI've noticed that steam specials seem to have a spare diesel loco on the back too ... much of it perhaps again relating to reliability, lack of thunderbirds, and all the extra money that Network Rail will charge you if you block the line until you manage to find someone to get you out of the way.   2nd loco every time probably cheaper than risking failure - insurance if you like.

Re steam specials I thought the diesel was there to supply compressed air for the train brakes when the loco doesn't have a Westinghouse pump as well as backup. It will also be there to take the stock away if the journey finishes at a terminal station.
Isn’t it also usually providing the hotel services power for the coaching stock, especially as they move towards air conditioned stock etc?

Paul


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Electric train on August 11, 2020, 08:36:26 am
Often the reason for 2 loco's the second is there if the is a failure of the primary for some of the Freight Operating Company (FOC) they may only have one or two operating bases the delay costs incurred waiting for one of their locos to reach the failed train would be excessive as would paying another Train Operating Company (TOC) to rescue the failed train.

Other reasons for topping and tailing can be operational there just are not the run round facilities now

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying acronyms


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: stuving on August 11, 2020, 09:42:20 am
A 769 unit was moved South through Banbury yesterday by 50007 and 50049.

This is reported to be 769943 on its way to Reading as 5Z69 but I have not found it on Realtime trains.

Picture here on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3356919184365881&set=gm.3159948040762940&type=3&theater&ifg=1 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3356919184365881&set=gm.3159948040762940&type=3&theater&ifg=1)

Double headed! - was it that heavy?

Well, maybe - if you want it to stop and it's not helping. I vaguely recall international train delivery consists having not just translator vehicles but a load of makeweight wagons too, specifically to provide brake force. So, is it custormary - or even compulsory - for new stock to be hauled with all brakes disabled? I can't find an explicit reference to that; NR and railway rules just say the operator (which is an FOC) will provide instructions.

I can understand it being needed when hauling old stock for scrap - you'd not want to certify its brakes as functional. But why that would apply to a brand new, just commissioned, ready-to-drive train is not clear. Still less for such an old new train.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Electric train on August 11, 2020, 09:24:02 pm
A 769 unit was moved South through Banbury yesterday by 50007 and 50049.

This is reported to be 769943 on its way to Reading as 5Z69 but I have not found it on Realtime trains.

Picture here on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3356919184365881&set=gm.3159948040762940&type=3&theater&ifg=1 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3356919184365881&set=gm.3159948040762940&type=3&theater&ifg=1)

Double headed! - was it that heavy?

Well, maybe - if you want it to stop and it's not helping. I vaguely recall international train delivery consists having not just translator vehicles but a load of makeweight wagons too, specifically to provide brake force. So, is it custormary - or even compulsory - for new stock to be hauled with all brakes disabled? I can't find an explicit reference to that; NR and railway rules just say the operator (which is an FOC) will provide instructions.

I can understand it being needed when hauling old stock for scrap - you'd not want to certify its brakes as functional. But why that would apply to a brand new, just commissioned, ready-to-drive train is not clear. Still less for such an old new train.

The rolling stock needs to have a valid brake test, which can be done by some repair facilities but not all, the brake test would only allow the move to the depot.  Another method is to have the stock being move through piped only this allows the translator vehicles, which have a valid brake test, to provide the brake force.

 


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: TonyN on August 11, 2020, 09:33:49 pm
Rail Operations group who where the TOC for the 769 move have some class 37 locomotives fitted with couplings to enable them to haul more modern units such as Electrostars. However these are not compatible with BR era units such as the 319/769.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on August 21, 2020, 08:38:16 am
GWR have released the following to show what the 769's will look like inside....

https://twitter.com/GWRHelp/status/1296421240543027200?s=09 (https://twitter.com/GWRHelp/status/1296421240543027200?s=09)

Does a good job of not mentioning it's a refurb of actually quite an old train.

Lots of debate over on RailUK Forum about where they will actually be able to operate on anything but diesel (remembering that primarily these are for the North Downs, Reading - Basingstoke and a few of the Thames Valley branches - I think?)


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: onthecushions on August 21, 2020, 10:38:36 am

I think that the good news implicit in this announcement is that GWR actually envisage that these units will finally enter service and operate as tri-mode.

While they are old in years, they are  modern in design, the Mark 3 being arguably a more balanced, economical concept than some of the post-privatisation offerings.

OTC


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 21, 2020, 10:52:33 am
I think that the good news implicit in this announcement is that GWR actually envisage that these units will finally enter service and operate as tri-mode.

We will see.  At least they can operate on Over-Head Line Equipment (OHLE) between Reading and the depot.   ;)

There is an element of future proofing, so that even if initially they are confined to diesel, the option remains in the future to use the other two modes of power.  More important (at least before the pandemic) to the users of the North Downs Line, where the vast majority of workings will be confined to, is that an 80-metre long train is replacing a 46m or 69m long train, so there's a capacity boost.

My main concern remains the reliability of the engines and their ability to haul a 4-car train over the gradients of the North Downs Line without impacting on performance too much.

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying acronyms


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightf48544 on August 21, 2020, 11:33:28 am

My main concern remains the reliability of the engines and their ability to haul a 4-car train over the gradients of the North Downs Line without impacting on performance too much.

I would have thought 3rd rail operation would be essential between Guildford and Ash.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on August 21, 2020, 01:43:24 pm
May be I ask for too much, but I noted 5 across seating, and that the top corners of the coaches had that kind of welded up/plated look that much High Speed Train (HST) stock and old 455s do - is that corrosion repair?

I may be back commuting for at least a day or two a week next month, but assume it will be a while before I can "road test" one from a passenger point of view.

It is a bit of a worry when some of the informed posters are concerned if the diesel engines will cope if they are introduced into service the leaf fall season.

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 21, 2020, 02:03:31 pm
I doubt you'll see any in passenger service until the December timetable change, though hopefully they'll be able to get some serious testing in during leaf fall to check they cope OK.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Surrey 455 on August 21, 2020, 07:35:11 pm
3+2 seating? That's disappointing. I would have hoped that the configuration could have been changed to 2+2 in a similar way to what SWT did to their 455's, also introducing a width gap of about an inch or two between the seats for more comfort.

I can't remember much about the Thameslink 319 seats but I have a vague memory of them being lower than on other trains and not as comfortable.

Incidentally do any new trains come in a 3+2 layout any more? That's new as in brand new. Not refurbished or rebuilt.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 22, 2020, 12:38:48 am
I don’t think so.  In terms of old trains though it’s often difficult to just replace a 3+2 seating with 2+2 as there are often under seat equipment that can’t easily be (re)moved.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Electric train on August 22, 2020, 07:48:26 am
I don’t think so.  In terms of old trains though it’s often difficult to just replace a 3+2 seating with 2+2 as there are often under seat equipment that can’t easily be (re)moved.

Also if they were reduced to 2 + 2 seating a 4 car train would then only have the same seating capacity as a 3 car with 3 + 2 Assuming the 769's are 4 car  ::)


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on August 22, 2020, 07:54:49 am
Really Ii?

I will try to look under the seats if and when I get to use one. If they are anything like Turbos, the seat fixings heating paraphernalia etc seems all to be under the outer two seats.

Certainly there doesn't seem to have been much problem doing the quite radical shifting of seats in two car Turbos to replace the old first class seats and install the long cycle and luggage racks.

And if I recall correctly from the nicely refurbished 150 I rode on to St Ives two years ago that had been converted to 4 across with no problem.

Dare I suggest if this is right the wrong redundant stock has been used as the basis of this conversion?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on August 22, 2020, 08:15:04 am
And in response to Electric Train, checking the seating diagrams GWR publish for 2 car 165s and 3 car 166s the three across seating actually only adds 14 and 19 extra seats respectively.  The additional coach should therefore still add considerable extra capacity if they were 4 across throughout. The discomfort of narrow packed seating doesn't seem justified in any stock these days- the Electrostars are all the better for being 4 across and they are in use on high density commuter services

A substantial part of the business ( or potential business) on the North Downs line is middle distance/ cross country travelers, including luggage laden  weary holiday makers returning from Gatwick looking to avoid the hassle of crossing London.  Surely something a little more suitable for them is in order too.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 22, 2020, 09:47:32 am
Really Ii?

I’m sure it could be done, but only at an extra cost that probably couldn’t be justified, and you might find that the project was authorised based on it providing a set percentage of seating uplift on the existing Turbo fleet - as well as providing the extra stock needed for the long proposed 3tph service.

Without seeing the specific numbers, I doubt a 4-car 80m train with 2+2 would have more seats than a 3-car 69m train with some 3+2.

I agree that 2+2 is a much more modern and sensible layout, but as with cascaded Turbos sometimes that isn’t the way it works out.  At least the North Downs route has had the same internal layouts for many years, so it’s just a like-for-like replacement.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Electric train on August 22, 2020, 10:03:44 am
Really Ii?

I’m sure it could be done, but only at an extra cost that probably couldn’t be justified, and you might find that the project was authorised based on it providing a set percentage of seating uplift on the existing Turbo fleet - as well as providing the extra stock needed for the long proposed 3tph service.

Without seeing the specific numbers, I doubt a 4-car 80m train with 2+2 would have more seats than a 3-car 69m train with some 3+2.

I agree that 2+2 is a much more modern and sensible layout, but as with cascaded Turbos sometimes that isn’t the way it works out.  At least the North Downs route has had the same internal layouts for many years, so it’s just a like-for-like replacement.

It could have been worse ................... could have gone for the 345 seating plan  ;D


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 23, 2020, 10:57:39 am
My main concern remains the reliability of the engines and their ability to haul a 4-car train over the gradients of the North Downs Line without impacting on performance too much.

I would have thought 3rd rail operation would be essential between Guildford and Ash.

Just reading over on RailForums and Clarence Yard (a very reliable source of information) says that one of the three DC sections is looking OK to power the 769s, with the potential to use all three still being investigated.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Fourbee on September 16, 2020, 02:28:45 pm
It'll be essentially 2+2, because people will put their suitcase on the third seat :)

To me 165s seem to have more room than 166s when everyone is doing that with their bags anyway and the luggage rack remains unused.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 28, 2020, 04:46:20 pm
I doubt you'll see any in passenger service until the December timetable change, though hopefully they'll be able to get some serious testing in during leaf fall to check they cope OK.

Well, that didn't happen of course.  Early new year testing is now the current plan, but I can see more and more slippage of this project.  Anyone care to take a bet that it will be the next May timetable change before we see any in revenue service?  :-\


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightf48544 on December 29, 2020, 03:43:55 pm
Might be worth a punt on it not happeneing by May wonder what odds you could get?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Timmer on December 29, 2020, 05:04:51 pm
Might be worth a punt on it not happeneing by May wonder what odds you could get?
Might not even be needed now.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: RichT54 on February 22, 2021, 01:55:15 pm
I've just been reading on RailUK forums about more problems with Transport for Wales' 769s. Three of their trains have been out today and each of them in turn has failed, eventually being replaced by a class 150. There's no information so far of what the causes of the problems are, but it's probably just as well that GWR's 769s are not yet in service.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/transport-for-wales-769s.179770/post-5008891 (https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/transport-for-wales-769s.179770/post-5008891)



Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 22, 2021, 02:11:14 pm
Yup, there are worrying signs that this will turn into a right old farce!


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: GWR 158 on February 22, 2021, 02:30:11 pm
I mean they look ok...Will they be used on the Reading-Basingstoke line?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: GWR 158 on February 22, 2021, 02:30:53 pm
When will they enter passenger service?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: grahame on February 22, 2021, 02:40:31 pm
Yup, there are worrying signs that this will turn into a right old farce!

I mean they look ok...Will they be used on the Reading-Basingstoke line?

When will they enter passenger service?

There are times it's good to be leading edge rather than bleading edge.   Predictions / suggestions for them entering GWR service is in a few month's time but that's slipped a few times already and while various formations are reduced across GWR due to covid, sensible to get it right rather than rush it.    Looking OK is a bit of a cosmetic view - they need to work reliably too; inevitably there will be a learning curve for the maintenance teams at first so there may be a struggle to maintain reliability just at first, but we should (I think) be happy that experience is being gained in Wales.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: DidcotPunter on March 18, 2021, 05:04:04 pm
Reported elsewhere by GWR sources that a 769 is due a trip from Reading Train Care Depot onto the mainline on Wednesday 24th March. Didn't specify which year, but let's be optimistic and assume they meant 2021  ;D Will beleive it when it happens.

And in reply to GWR 158, yes, it is proposed that they'll be used on the Reading-Basingstoke line as well as the Twyford and Windsor branches and the North Downs Line.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Ollie on March 18, 2021, 05:42:06 pm
Reported elsewhere by GWR sources that a 769 is due a trip from Reading Train Care Depot onto the mainline on Wednesday 24th March. Didn't specify which year, but let's be optimistic and assume they meant 2021  ;D Will beleive it when it happens.

And in reply to GWR 158, yes, it is proposed that they'll be used on the Reading-Basingstoke line as well as the Twyford and Windsor branches and the North Downs Line.

Should indeed be next week for testing to start.

Once in passenger service, they will initially be for the Gatwick route. Certainly potential for other branches later on, but nothing confirmed. I'd say (personal opinion) that Windsor is highly unlikely as that will create crew issues as Paddington and Reading drivers both cover the Windsor route. 


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on March 18, 2021, 07:12:57 pm
Thanks Ollie

It is some what bizarre that they will be used for Reading - Basingstoke, with no usable electric traction supply between Southcote Junction and Basingstoke, but not Reading-Oxford services on which they could run on the OHL from Reading to Didcot.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 18, 2021, 07:16:28 pm
That comes down to the same 'one depot' strategy that Ollie mentioned in his previous post.  Reading to Basingstoke is only crewed by Reading drivers.  Reading to Didcot/Oxford is crewed by Reading, Paddington and Oxford drivers.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: CyclingSid on March 26, 2021, 06:54:38 am
Quote
a trip from Reading Train Care Depot onto the mainline on Wednesday 24th March

Did it happen, and how far did they get?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: stuving on March 26, 2021, 10:54:34 am
Quote
a trip from Reading Train Care Depot onto the mainline on Wednesday 24th March

Did it happen, and how far did they get?

No. But there is now what looks very like a 769 path (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K03950/2021-03-29/detailed) booked (as FRGT) for Monday 29th! Nothing too strenuous mind, just Reading TD-DID-MAI-Reading TD, so it won't even need to turn the engines on. There are also paths to and from Long Marston, but they are standard preallocations and almost always get cancelled.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on March 26, 2021, 11:24:29 am
Quote
so it won't even need to turn the engines on

Bearing in mind the routes they are currently (no pun intended!) apparently ear-marked for working (North Downs and Reading-Basingstoke) have respectively no and only a short stretch of OHL it seems a bit daft not to do so!


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: didcotdean on March 29, 2021, 04:15:12 pm
Well it did run. (https://twitter.com/GWRHelp/status/1376518166407475201?s=20) (link to GWR twitter_)

Maybe of note that this was publicised after the event when it had completed the run and not before or during :)


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on March 29, 2021, 07:02:39 pm
...and if the photo on Twitter is up-to-date, they have not yet applied the grey diagonal stripe and GWR logos yet. Are they hedging their bets if they do not pass their tests?

The rippled carriage sides show well, too.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: RichT54 on April 07, 2021, 11:31:29 am
I've just been reading elsewhere that all 3 GWR 769s are out of action today (7/4/21). It was mentioned that if there was only one that was serviceable, then it wouldn't be able to go out because there wouldn't be another 769 to rescue it if it broke down. It makes me wonder that, if they are that unreliable, what is the probability that a rescue 769 would also fail and cause even more disruption?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on April 07, 2021, 12:26:40 pm
Probably quite a small chance, but given having no or very limited rescue capacity should one fail is probably taking an unnecessary risk.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightf48544 on April 08, 2021, 11:11:09 am
Another example of the stupid lack of a standard auto coupling.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: RichT54 on April 28, 2021, 04:23:57 pm
There are comments on railforums (https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-class-319-769-information-discussion.174866/post-5107758) saying that one of the 769 test runs today had to be abandoned:

Quote
The original set sustained some damage in the Slough area, reportedly shoegear impacting trackside furniture, which caused other complications so set limped back to Maidenhead where it was rescued back to Reading by another 769.



Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Electric train on April 28, 2021, 08:58:21 pm
There are comments on railforums (https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-class-319-769-information-discussion.174866/post-5107758) saying that one of the 769 test runs today had to be abandoned:

Quote
The original set sustained some damage in the Slough area, reportedly shoegear impacting trackside furniture, which caused other complications so set limped back to Maidenhead where it was rescued back to Reading by another 769.



Would seem someone had not completed gauge clearance for a third rail unit with non retractable shoe gear, wonder if someone assumed that because 387 run on the GWML that other third rail stock can  ???

387's have retractable shoe gear; 769's aka 319's have fixed shoe gear


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: RichT54 on May 25, 2021, 03:39:23 pm
I read on railforums that one of the 769s did some testing on the third rail at Reading platform 6 today (25/5). So one small step closer to doing some test runs on the North Downs line, perhaps?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: stuving on May 30, 2021, 02:08:07 pm
Wedding pictures? Certainly this is both something old and something new, and the drivers at lest are borrowed. And we had loads of something blue yesterday, didn't we?

Two of the 769s at Reading were out last night in Guildford, checking gauging (at the bridge over the Wey west of Shalford, I think). I didn't go out to wave as they passed Wokingham last night (it was midnight), but I certainly heard and saw both of them from the house. None of this third rail nonsense on this trip!

The plan was for one to do a few shuttles from P3 to Shalford while the other one sat in P8 offering moral support and encouragement. But what happened was a bit different: there were at least three trips from P6 and one unit ended up in P8. That left P6 free for the Redhill trains, terminating here as the line to Blackwater was closed until 12:30. 

The return path (597Y) was rather gently paced, and included an hour stopped in Wokingham P2, for some reason. I wondered if they felt he need to gauge check the new siding ... or play with using third rail back to Reading. There was no second path, so the other unit vanished without trace - I guess its path back to Reading never even got into the VSTP.

In the end, 769943 set off back home on time, despite the maps showing the line as still blocked! It got to Wokingham a bit early, and had to wait for the junction. While it was hardly quiet, it wasn't as loud as 165104 accelerating towards Crowthorne, and nowhere near what else it was waiting for - something yellow running as 354K.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: RichT54 on May 30, 2021, 02:15:28 pm
I got some photos as it passed between Blackwater and Sandhurst.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K63553/2021-05-30/detailed (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K63553/2021-05-30/detailed)




Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: RichT54 on June 01, 2021, 10:52:04 am
Interesting comment by the knowledgable "Clarence Yard" on RailUKforums (https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-class-319-769-information-discussion.174866/post-5159106 (https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-class-319-769-information-discussion.174866/post-5159106))

Quote
It is the Wey bridge. Although the units were officially cleared through the bridge, using the usual model against the NR database, NR were a little embarrassed to find out that there was a guard rail structure on the bridge that wasn’t on their database. Neither did it conform to current NR standards.

So NR had to do some work on it (it wasn’t in great condition either) and as the clearances from shoe beams to the guard rails were a bit suspect, a physical exercise was thought to be the best way of getting it cleared.

This was the last significant item that remained to be done by the (now disbanded) small NR/GWR DMU task force that has, over the past few years, successfully (and quietly) dealt with all the other GWR 16x and 769 clearance locations.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: stuving on June 02, 2021, 11:22:14 am
The running-in trials are still going on, using the line from Swindon to Maidenhead. Today for the first time I've seen them on RTT "Pathed as Class 769 EMU; Planned for 100mph max". Today's paths are a bit of a muddle, some shown as GW and some as ZZ, and the single outing "Pathed as Diesel locomotive; Planned for 75mph max" curtailed and replaced by single-leg ones for a 769. But at least they are clocking up the miles.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: RichT54 on June 16, 2021, 10:53:47 am
769943 is back out on the North Downs Line today and is scheduled to go all the way to Gatwick for the first time, I believe.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K06066/2021-06-16/detailed (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K06066/2021-06-16/detailed)

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K06067/2021-06-16/detailed (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K06067/2021-06-16/detailed)

I have attached some photos of it travelling between Crowthorne and Sandhurst.



Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 16, 2021, 11:40:05 am
I remain concerned about reliability once in service, but the testing/training programme seems to be going reasonably well so far.  I doubt there'll be (m)any Turbos released to the west in time for this summer's surge though unfortunately.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: bobm on June 16, 2021, 01:25:06 pm
In an update from GWR a fortnight ago a senior manager did not believe any turbos would move west until September.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: stuving on June 16, 2021, 01:33:24 pm
I see that today's two runs include station calls, unlike previous ones. Some of those are so short that they might even have really been passes, but Wokingham and Reigate have seen several minutes.

I went to observe today's second run outbound, which did indeed hang about for some time (I was the wrong side of the crossing to see if anything was actually happening). So this time I heard it accelerating from a stand, and it is relatively quiet - as these things go - less noise than a typical Turbo, at least. In fact the motor whine (notoriously loud on these old GEC G315BZ DC motors) was subjectively louder. The engines are I think mounted symmetrically, so one is louder than the other.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: RichT54 on June 16, 2021, 10:00:37 pm
I was just having another look at the photos I took this morning and remembered that the driver sounded the horn as the train approached the footbridge I was on which made me I wonder if he had waved as well  8)







Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: RichT54 on June 21, 2021, 08:49:01 pm
Some good video (not mine) of the recent class 769 test runs on the North Downs and Brighton Main lines:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IGdTczUq6o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IGdTczUq6o)



Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: broadgage on June 23, 2021, 01:08:32 am
Some good video (not mine) of the recent class 769 test runs on the North Downs and Brighton Main lines:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IGdTczUq6o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IGdTczUq6o)



I, interesting, thanks. BTW at about 6 minutes into the video it looks like a nasty dip in the track, on the line used by the 769 approaching the camera.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: stuving on July 09, 2021, 11:11:59 am
I was just going out shopping when I noticed that this morning's run to Gatwick and back had turned back at Guildford. And 769946 duly came back through Wokingham 10:56 instead of 12:08, and with its rear engine shut down. Engine failure (and return from Guildford) also happened on the first run on Monday, and perhaps the second turned back even earlier (but RTT gets so confused by this kind of thing it's hard to be sure). Wednesday's two runs were cancelled. So far so ...?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on July 09, 2021, 06:30:31 pm
By way of reminder, here is the first post in this thread-

Quote
   
Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
« on: April 19, 2018, 06:04:17 pm »
Reply with quoteQuote
Just seen on Twitter,
Philip Haigh states
GWR to bring 19 tri-mode Class 769 4-car trains to Reading-Oxford and Reading-Gatwick services from next spring. Will run on AC and DC▸ electrification and diesel. Will initially support introduction of refurbed trains to Heathrow Express.

and the first insider comment-

Quote
   
Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2018, 07:09:42 pm »
Reply with quoteQuote
It is, obviously, good news to get more capacity.  Just the extra strain on crew training, and the reliability and power of the units themselves that cast a bit of a shadow in my opinion.

So II - who's going to win on Sunday?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 09, 2021, 06:35:24 pm
So II - who's going to win on Sunday?

Broadgage is the one with the crystal ball! ;)


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: stuving on July 09, 2021, 06:44:06 pm
This afternoon's run did happen, rather to my surprise. This one (reportedly 959) got to Redhill, but by then it was 20 minutes late so it met its own schedule coming back. On the way back to Reading it only lost 10 minutes, but with the advantage of not doing station calls. No informed reports on what its problem was, but being a bit short in the engine system department looks a likely bet.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: onthecushions on July 16, 2021, 08:41:59 am

From what is published elsewhere, the Northern and TfW 769's are now in service and behaving reasonably. Ours are still in the testing stage, it seems.

OTC



Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: ellendune on July 16, 2021, 09:21:09 am

From what is published elsewhere, the Northern and TfW 769's are now in service and behaving reasonably. Ours are still in the testing stage, it seems.

OTC



Difference is the third rail I suppose.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 16, 2021, 09:58:57 am
Plus of course ours are still being delivered and testing hasn’t been going on for long.

Perhaps this thread’s title should be amended?  There are no plans to use them on services to Oxford.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on July 16, 2021, 11:42:32 am
Quote
There are no plans to use them on services to Oxford.

But they were originally announced as being for the Reading-Oxford services as well - have a look at the first posts in this thread. If I have understood the position from following this over the last three years this has changed and Reading - Basingstoke is now the other route they will cover.

Which inspires an idea, partly stimulated by Marlburian's recent post -

Quote
Time was when I would take the train to a nearby town or village and walk, before returning home by rail. But the current hourly service to and from Tilehurst doesn't encourage this, compared with the previous half-hourly one.

As for travelling east through Reading, it seems eons ago since in January 2020 I was lamenting having to hang around on the station for a connecting service at certain times of the day.

I didn't bother to renew my Senior Railcard that expired two weeks ago.


We currently have two "gaps" without OHL on services around Reading - Didcot to Oxford, and Reading to Basingstoke. The former is now a fractured service with changes/delays at Didcot. For some reason the stopping Reading to Didcots have still not been restored to half-hourly. As Marlburian says, this is quite a disincentive to using the train to get into Reading or take a connecting train onwards, with the prospect of possibly nearly an hour's wait (or two if there's a cancellation). Furthermore, there is the somewhat frustrating sight of lightly loaded 8 coach trains running hourly when 5 years ago it was a much more convenient half hourly off peak service run comfortably with 2 or 3 car trains. 

I appreciate that compared to the travails of Melksham passengers (once again highlighted by today's posts) this seems like a "first world problem", but every reduction in service frequency is another group of people who will think "why bother with the train, I might as well drive".

So - if there's some reason why the pre-covid half hourly off peak stopping services continuing on to London cannot be restored, why not combine the Reading - Oxford stopping services and the Reading-Basingstoke one into an hourly Oxford-Basingstoke, reversing at Reading, one that can use 769s switching power at Reading and Didcot, thereby restoring a half-hourly stopping service from Reading to Didcot, and also possibly releasing a few more Turbos for the west? 


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 16, 2021, 12:14:49 pm
Oxford was dropped from the plans very early on.

There wouldn’t be enough units to cover the North Downs planned diagrams if they were used on an Oxford to Basingstoke service, though that indeed might well be a more sensible utilisation of them…though there are a few arguments against as well.



Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Rhydgaled on July 17, 2021, 01:29:34 pm
From what is published elsewhere, the Northern and TfW 769's are now in service and behaving reasonably. Ours are still in the testing stage, it seems.

OTC
I'm not sure abouth the "behaving reasonably" part - Roger Ford's 'New Train TIN Watch' shows the TfW 769s to be performing relatively poorly in reliability terms (think only the Crossrail 345s were worse) and the relevant topic on the RailUK Forums has many reports of fewer 769s being out in service each day than intended (although I'm not sure if some of that is due to COVID-related delays in staff training or if they have trainned enough staff).


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: onthecushions on July 17, 2021, 10:45:34 pm

The improvement has been very recent and fewer (bad) reports are being entered.

OTC


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: bradshaw on July 21, 2021, 08:28:40 am
One has ventured to Southampton

769930 on the 5Q19 0647 Reading Depot to Southampton and return

https://twitter.com/skuttersrule/status/1417746816091701251?s=21


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on July 21, 2021, 11:21:45 am
Quote
One has ventured to Southampton

769930 on the 5Q19 0647 Reading Depot to Southampton and return

It is escaping! Perhaps it wants to run away and live with a 230 on the Isle of Wight! ;D


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on September 11, 2021, 06:54:42 pm
Prompted by the mention of them in the recent/current Weymouth thread, any more news on when they will be ready for service (recalling Spring 2019 as the original target date....)?

And how many have been delivered?

And any information as to what the principal problems causing all this delay might be?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: stuving on September 11, 2021, 07:42:58 pm
Prompted by the mention of them in the recent/current Weymouth thread, any more news on when they will be ready for service (recalling Spring 2019 as the original target date....)?

And how many have been delivered?

And any information as to what the principal problems causing all this delay might be?

The 769s made earlier and now operating (when fit) on Northern and TfW have had very poor reliability and still do. That's despite delays that were in part so as to fix the problems (which have not been identified).

The GWR ones started off with a habit of giving up and coming back early to Reading, but more recently have done a lot better. So far their trips to Gatwick and back have been for mileage accumulation (aka fault-free running), but as of last week they began doing driver training (subject to having enough staff, presumably).

There are not many of the fleet at Reading yet, but that doesn't tell you haw many a ready. Until there are enough trained drivers they can't be put into service, so the Turbos can't go away, and there is not much room for stock in excess of the working fleet. That's not to say you need the whole fleet available before starting to use them, so December still looks possible for a limited introduction. You'll remember that GWR talked about "infiltrating" them, which I think means no razzamataz and marketing nonsense - confidence in this all going to plan remains low.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on September 12, 2021, 12:06:43 pm
Thanks Stuving - I look forward to my last few months of commuting before retirement with trepidation!


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 12, 2021, 01:33:43 pm
There are also issues over the suitability of the cab.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on September 12, 2021, 04:07:57 pm
Quote
There are also issues over the suitability of the cab.

That's sounds serious - can you tell us more?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 12, 2021, 05:52:21 pm
Just whether it's appropriate for a 'new' train.  It's a design of cab that would never be allowed for a new build now, and though this is a conversion job, it's a major conversion job so opinions differ as to whether it should be accepted into traffic with various sub-optimal features in the cab, such as a poorly designed seat, general space and layout and cab cooling. 

The same argument rumbled on at Northern for quite some time!

If I was to take a punt, it will be next year before any enter service, and when they do reliability will plummet.  But a saviour will come within a short(ish) period of time when excess diesel stock from elsewhere will be found as a result of a post pandemic surplus of trains due to service cuts elsewhere on the railway network.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Timmer on September 13, 2021, 06:36:58 am
Maybe it’s time for the railway to admit on this occasion you can’t teach an old dog new tricks and drop this project.

In the time it’s taken you could easily have electrified the missing links on the North Downs line and ran the 319s as they were intended…on electricity!


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Electric train on September 13, 2021, 07:05:34 am


In the time it’s taken you could easily have electrified the missing links on the North Downs line and ran the 319s as they were intended…on electricity!

That may not have solved II point about cab suitability, if they were being introduced to replace existing stock and the cab standards of the 319's are low than the 165/6 the same questions would be raised by the Drivers Staff Reps with the company managers


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: grahame on September 13, 2021, 08:01:58 am
If I was to take a punt, it will be next year before any enter service, and when they do reliability will plummet.  But a saviour will come within a short(ish) period of time when excess diesel stock from elsewhere will be found as a result of a post pandemic surplus of trains due to service cuts elsewhere on the railway network.

OK ... but will there really be a surplus?

Quoting the Secretary of State
Quote
I do not dispute that the Bristol trains are busy at certain times, and while I acknowledge the attractiveness of the through service to Waterloo to passengers like Mr Annand, there are increasing capacity issues elsewhere on the West of England line, especially beyond Salisbury, as leisure demand grows.

Consequently, the industry is looking to ensure that we maximise the use of the SWR diesel fleet on the core Exeter route,to ensure that customers can have a comfortable journey.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 13, 2021, 08:06:34 am
I think there will be, yes.  300 cancellations a day for Scotrail planned IIRC?  There will be much more of a surplus of EMUs I think, but I expect there to be a diesel surplus too.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: broadgage on September 13, 2021, 09:13:36 am
I think there will be, yes.  300 cancellations a day for Scotrail planned IIRC?  There will be much more of a surplus of EMUs I think, but I expect there to be a diesel surplus too.

You may be right, but for at least ten years  we have been told that there will be soon be a surplus of stock on FGW/GWR with improved capacity, longer trains, and much reduced overcrowding.
But the actual result has been shorter trains and worse overcrowding. I suppose that eventually it might get better, but the last ten years or more do not fill me with confidence.

The failed IET project has significantly cut capacity and train length of main line services.
And the even more failed 769 project has cut branch line capacity even more.

I don't expect improvement any time soon.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 13, 2021, 09:44:51 am
I very much doubt the spare stock would come from a surplus that GWR would have, more likely Scotrail (hence mentioning them in my post) or other operators of large diesel fleets.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: grahame on September 13, 2021, 10:13:41 am
I very much doubt the spare stock would come from a surplus that GWR would have, more likely Scotrail (hence mentioning them in my post) or other operators of large diesel fleets.

I also wonder what is happening to new deliveries such as the 77 class 197 units on order for Transport for Wales; from Wikipedia:
Quote
The Class 197 trains will also have fewer toilets than the Class 158 and Class 175 trains they are intended to replace.
ignoring the toilets, could new homes for those 158s be found at Salisbury, Bristol and Exeter? I would almost welcome something that's tried and tested and can reliably run within days of arriving, of a know type and generally well liked and suitable.   There might even be enough to run a service from Waterloo to Bristol and Cardiff ...


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on September 13, 2021, 11:37:15 am
My trepidation grows....

Thanks all for your input. It's not an encouraging picture, but I think it leaves us with the following scenario(s)-

1 - class 769s may not come into use until first/second quarter of 2022. Purely selfishly, if reliability remains as poor as seems to be the case at present, if this delayed until after April I will quietly be relieved (never thought I would be grateful to continue to use the current scruffy Turbo fleet with their poor standard class seats!). Is there still the possibility that they might be rejected as sub-standard? I have noticed that I have only seen one with GWR signwriting, the others have only been painted not sign-written, which after all this time does not look like a vote of confidence or confirmation of acceptance.


2- GW management (or DfT pulling the strings behind the scenes) have a dilemma. Do they keep Turbos east in case the 769s fail (or are rejected because of continuing unresolved issues?) at the expense of those further west or send them west and transfer the problems to the Thames Valley/North Downs? If there really will be trains to cascade from Wales or Scotland, presumably these would have to be types already in use on GW, so 150s and 158s, which may be seen as a reason to keep the Turbos east where crew are familiar with the type, and send the 150s and 158s west (again, where crew are familiar with them). But what if there is delay in delivering the new Welsh trains, or if Nichola Sturgeon under pressure from her new Green allies reinstates many of the cancelled trains (does the Scottish government have any say?)?

3 - And are the cab problems confined to the 769s? While they have been using them in the past and they are still on the fleet, are there problems putting 150s and 158s back on services now run using Turbos? I know 158s give a better passenger experience, but what about drivers?

Timmer's comments are not so daft. I believe that the Electrostars have the ability to run on third rail and if we had a properly run railway the Reading "pool" of these would be running the North Downs as well, instead of being raided for Heathrow work, with a lot of recently installed new interior fittings being removed and presumably wasted even though nearly new.



Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: broadgage on September 13, 2021, 12:04:34 pm
I very much doubt the spare stock would come from a surplus that GWR would have, more likely Scotrail (hence mentioning them in my post) or other operators of large diesel fleets.

I do not share you optimism, firstly that Scotrail will release the units, secondly that they will work reliably and prove suitable.
Scotrail would naturally send the worst examples from the fleet.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Lee on September 13, 2021, 04:23:39 pm
How many years of active National Rail service do we think that the 15x and 16x units have left in them, and how many more years do we think it will be considered acceptable to continue to run diesel trains in general on the National Rail network, given how markedly attitudes have changed even over the past few years towards all things diesel from a Climate Emergency perspective?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: PrestburyRoad on September 13, 2021, 05:12:08 pm

Quote
How many years of active National Rail service do we think that the 15x and 16x units have left in them, and how many more years do we think it will be considered acceptable to continue to run diesel trains in general on the National Rail network, given how markedly attitudes have changed even over the past few years towards all things diesel from a Climate Emergency perspective?
I've been wondering: what's the relative carbon footprint between
  • The energy used operating a unit over its lifetime of say 40 years - such as the diesel it burns
  • The energy used in manufacturing the unit in the first place - such as getting the steel/aluminium from ore, minus any energy saved in recycling the materials from eventual scrapping
The balance between these can affect whether it's worth keeping old units running even if they are less fuel-efficient.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 13, 2021, 05:33:45 pm
How many years of active National Rail service do we think that the 15x and 16x units have left in them, and how many more years do we think it will be considered acceptable to continue to run diesel trains in general on the National Rail network, given how markedly attitudes have changed even over the past few years towards all things diesel from a Climate Emergency perspective?

I would say around 20 years more service could be achieved with Turbos fairly easily.  The same with other units of a similar era - 158/9s specifically, perhaps a bit less for 150/3/5/6 units. 

Whether demand for diesel units will mean that happens is a whole other matter.  I would expect the change to battery/electric to be a more gradual one than with cars - but at exactly what pace will be deemed suitable and/or achievable I’d be much less confident in forecasting.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: grahame on September 13, 2021, 05:40:48 pm
Working this out while others posted - what I think is a complete list of pure diesel passenger train (original build dates) running scheduled services on the national network these days that are pure diesel.

 47   1962-8 (converted to 57 - GWR sleeper locos)
253   1975-82
D78   1978-? (converted to 230)
150   1984-7
155   1986-7 (most converted to 153)
156   1987-9
158   1989-92 (some converted to 159)
165   1990-2
166   1992-3
168   1998-2004
170   1998-2005
175   1999-2001
180   2000-1
220   2000-1
221   2001-2
171   2003-4
222   2003-5
185   2005-6
172   2010-1
195   2017-20
196   2019-
197   2021-
231   t.b.a.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Rhydgaled on September 16, 2021, 03:00:23 pm
I've been wondering: what's the relative carbon footprint between
  • The energy used operating a unit over its lifetime of say 40 years - such as the diesel it burns
  • The energy used in manufacturing the unit in the first place - such as getting the steel/aluminium from ore, minus any energy saved in recycling the materials from eventual scrapping
The balance between these can affect whether it's worth keeping old units running even if they are less fuel-efficient.
So have I. The least-fuel-efficient units appear to be the early-privatisation ones (170s, 175s and 185s) with Sprinters (150-159) and the latest diesels (195-197) both getting through less fuel per mile I think. I'm not sure there's much in it between a 195 and a 158, the different ratio of 3-car to 2-car units makes it hard to make a fair comparison.

I believe the energy used in manufacturing is quite significant, but how significant? Is it better to scrap a diesel train after 26yrs service in order to replace it with a new battery/hydrogen-electric bi-mode or to get the full 35-40 years life out of the diesel train before incuring the carbon cost of manufacturing the new fleet?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: ellendune on September 16, 2021, 03:19:44 pm
I believe the energy used in manufacturing is quite significant, but how significant? Is it better to scrap a diesel train after 26yrs service in order to replace it with a new battery/hydrogen-electric bi-mode or to get the full 35-40 years life out of the diesel train before incuring the carbon cost of manufacturing the new fleet?

That is a really good question and also what is the feasibility and carbon implications of retractioning these diesel units to give them longer life?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: broadgage on September 16, 2021, 05:15:16 pm
The best thing to do with old diesel units IMHO is to store them as a reserve fleet for for breakdowns or exceptional passenger flows. The fuel consumption is of relatively little importance if used thus rather than than in intensive daily use.

New trains should preferably be either OHLE or for secondary routes perhaps battery powered. All new electric trains should include either a diesel engine or a battery for proceeding at much reduced performance to the next station when the wires come down, or for on board services if unable to proceed.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Rhydgaled on September 18, 2021, 12:27:31 pm
I believe the energy used in manufacturing is quite significant, but how significant? Is it better to scrap a diesel train after 26yrs service in order to replace it with a new battery/hydrogen-electric bi-mode or to get the full 35-40 years life out of the diesel train before incuring the carbon cost of manufacturing the new fleet?

That is a really good question and also what is the feasibility and carbon implications of retractioning these diesel units to give them longer life?
My gut feeling is that retractioning the diesel units is likely to be by far the best option in terms of greenhouse gas emissions. Unfortunately, I fear the feasibility of retractioning the recent diesel orders (classes 195, 196 and 197) is pretty much non-existant because the following would be required:
  • Hacking a hole or two in the roof to install pantograph(s)
  • Replacing the entire (mechancial) traction system with traction motors etc.
  • Installing a traction power bus between vehicles so that current collected from the pantograph on one vehicle can reach the traction motors on other vehicles
This is likely to require all existing electrical systems to be stripped out while the work is ongoing partly due to the possibility of sensitive electrical equipment being fried during welding in the pantograph wells (I think these are aluminium bodied) and partly because there're going to have to find somewhere to put the traction power bus.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: RichT54 on October 19, 2021, 09:29:37 pm
Recent posts on RailUK forums have discussed rumours that the introduction of the 769s will be delayed another 12 months, although not all insiders seem to agree.

Quote
    800 Driver said:
    Hearing from multiple sources that the 769s have failed their fault free running and the project has been put back at least 12 months .....

Clarence Yard said
That doesn’t make any sense.

Fault free running is specific to the unit being accepted, not the class as a whole. The class authorisation is done through the NR type acceptance programme which, unless GWR have recently discovered an EMC or another serious issue to effectively negate it, has already been completed.

Recent delays to the programme have been mainly around ASLEF not accepting the units as fit for their members. The cab seats and desks have been the latest areas of contention.

Can anyone here confirm the rumours?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on October 19, 2021, 09:48:44 pm
I can confirm that Clarence Yard is an extremely reliable source of information.  However that doesn’t mean the 769s will be entering service any time soon!


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on November 15, 2021, 05:40:51 pm
Another month passes, and still no sign of progress. In the meantime the delay in bringing the 769s into service continues to feature in posts on other threads.

During my now weekly commute past Reading Traincare depot, I don't think I have seen more than 3 "on shed", of which (insofar as I can tell from fleeting views as I go past) only one seems to have its GWR logos and markings applied to its green and grey livery.

Any news - has the ASLEF problem been resolved? Are those that have been delivered working properly? When will the rest arrive? Will they enter service before I finally retire in April? Any inside knowledge out there? 



Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 15, 2021, 06:25:33 pm
There’s three more stabled at Oxford, others at Eastleigh I believe and more no doubt dotted around the countryside!


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: onthecushions on November 16, 2021, 06:49:48 pm

I wonder if GWR is waiting sensibly and quietly for Northern and TfW to sort out the 769's, one way or another, before taking the plunge on (and expense of)  driver training and introduction into service.

OTC


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: stuving on November 16, 2021, 07:39:20 pm

I wonder if GWR is waiting sensibly and quietly for Northern and TfW to sort out the 769's, one way or another, before taking the plunge on (and expense of)  driver training and introduction into service.

OTC

Driver training started early in September, but there hasn't been a great deal of it yet. I imagine that's because it calls for spare drivers - not needed to drive trains in service -  and they have been hard to find. Train failures on the runs that did happen have not been common, but a lot of trips have been cancelled throughout.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: onthecushions on November 17, 2021, 05:54:48 pm

I was in Palmer Park, Reading about 1210 today and saw 3V11, 769 937 returning ecs to Reading from Gatwick on time. Looked very smart.

Try the Park's TuTu's Cafe, it's very good.

OTC


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: TonyN on November 17, 2021, 08:43:32 pm
Only one 769 at Oxford this morning so they do move.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Reading General on November 17, 2021, 09:53:30 pm
I saw one move through platform 3 at Oxford station last week towards the sidings. I couldn’t see it on the real time trains website.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: anthony215 on November 18, 2021, 05:12:27 pm

I was in Palmer Park, Reading about 1210 today and saw 3V11, 769 937 returning ecs to Reading from Gatwick on time. Looked very smart.

Try the Park's TuTu's Cafe, it's very good.

OTC

According to the gwr staff 769937 seems to be the most behaved of the 769s they've received so far


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: stuving on December 15, 2021, 10:31:46 pm
It also might hint that the 769 introduction is still a LONG way off.
... and maybe getting longer off!

While GWR's herd were doing better than the rest, recently they haven't done at all well. With six runs to Gatwick a week planned, so far this week it's been four no-shows out of six. That may be due to last week, where there were three failures at Guildford (one after a failed attempt to fail at Redhill, followed by a successful failure on the way beck). Two runs went OK, the sixth was cancelled.

These runs are still being called mileage accumulation, but with some scope for training. So far that's been training driver managers and trainers, but even if driver availability allowed their inclusion, ASLEF still don't.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: RichT54 on February 16, 2022, 10:35:14 pm
There's been an interesting conversation on RailUK Forums today:

Quote from: DownFast
Possibly. 769s like 319s before them have two AWS receivers. The AWS magnets on DC electrified lines have a much stronger magnetic field to overcome the electromagnetic interference from the 3rd rail so there is an AWS receiver for DC, and another for AC & diesel. The switch from one to the other should happen as part of the power changeover procedure, but if it doesn't then the train can be running with the wrong receiver active, which can result in lots of AWS irregularities. That's just an educated guess on my part though as to what happened on 939 today.

Meanwhile, 936 failed at Guildford this afternoon with a traction motor fault, could only get as far as Wanborough on the other motor, so headed back to Guildford, and is now sat in disgrace in the sidings awaiting rescue tomorrow.

Quote from: DownFast
There are four traction motors, yes, but it's only possible to isolate pairs of motors so if one develops a fault that requires isolation, then two motors are lost. I probably could have been clearer in that it was one pair that had been isolated leaving one pair operational, i.e., 50% power. Performance on one pair of motors is pretty dire, especially on any sort of gradient like the 1 in 100 leaving Guildford on the down Ash.

Reading low level line has been attempted from a standing start on one pair of motors a while ago - I can't remember the exact gradient (something severe like 1 in 35?) but that one very nearly didn't make it.

Edit: forgot the link https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-class-319-769-information-discussion.174866/page-51#post-5538947 (https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-class-319-769-information-discussion.174866/page-51#post-5538947)


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on February 22, 2022, 06:55:05 pm
Doesn't look like the failure rate is improving?

Saw first one at Guildford this evening,  but all shut up and dark in the sidings beyond platform 8 and the temporary site offices. Another failure?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: stuving on February 22, 2022, 07:30:13 pm
Doesn't look like the failure rate is improving?

Saw first one at Guildford this evening,  but all shut up and dark in the sidings beyond platform 8 and the temporary site offices. Another failure?

Yes. Though it's got a traction motor fault, which might be attributed to the original 319. But the result is it lost the use of half its motors, and was unable to get up the hill to Wanborough. Hence it was sent to the naughty siding to wait for someone to do the sums to see if another 769 could pull it up 1/100.

Plans to shift is on Friday were Euniced, but I though there was another go planned today. At least, there was an ECS move from Oxford to the sidings, and another from there to Reading depot. Some timing reports of that are showing, but rather too few to be really convincing, so maybe (given that it's still there) that didn't happen.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on February 22, 2022, 10:40:40 pm
I have just realised why they are no longer going to use them for bi-mode trains between Reading and Oxford - they will need all 19 to run up and down the North Downs line rescuing one another when they break down!


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: RichT54 on February 23, 2022, 05:57:45 pm
It looks like the failed 769 has been rescued at last:

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:16493/2022-02-23/detailed (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:16493/2022-02-23/detailed)


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: stuving on February 28, 2022, 07:03:13 pm
It looks like the failed 769 has been rescued at last:

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:16493/2022-02-23/detailed (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:16493/2022-02-23/detailed)

And less than a week later the same unit (769936) has been and gone and done pretty much the same thing again. This time it's at Redhill, and in another naughty siding - number 2 is a series of ...


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 28, 2022, 07:24:15 pm
Hopeless!


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: stuving on March 02, 2022, 12:01:33 am
I commented earlier that the traction system  was part of the 319, not the conversions. In the latest case of failure that's even more relevant, as at Redhill it was running on third rail. I've heard that 319s had a poor reliability record in this area, and that does seem to be the case.

In 2015, DfT hit GTR with a section 55 improvement notice, for its number of cancellations. GTR's excuse generator came up with some explanations for the poor fleet reliability on Thameslink and Southern operations, citing "Inherited door system and traction motor failures on the class 319" and "...failures on a small number of train systems in the class 387/1 introduction". As further detail, they said:

Quote
The two highest failure factors are doors and traction motors and this plan focuses on these two issues.

A door system intervention was undertaken by the previous franchisee between May 2014 and
September 2014. This was intended to improve the performance of the door system across the fleet.
However the work resulted in a much higher failure rate and the underlying door performance
worsened.

Traction motors and motor alternator sets on Class 319 units require a very high level of
maintenance attention to their commutators to remain reliable. The small number of maintenance
roads in Bedford coupled with the very high fleet mileages and the time consuming and intrusive
nature of the work, provided insufficient depot pitted road access for it to have been delivered
effectively. Consequently the condition of the commutators on the Class 319 traction motors and
motor alternators has deteriorated over recent years. This has led to electrical flashovers as a result
of poor commutation resulting in significant delays and cancellations.

I guess that's what you get if you choose to do up old trains. I wonder how much work Porterbrook did on those areas? The GWR ones do have new 3-phase inverters to cope with the extra load of cabin air cooling, so presumably they at least don't still have the old motor alternators.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Surrey 455 on March 02, 2022, 08:20:56 pm
A door system intervention was undertaken by the previous franchisee between May 2014 and
September 2014. This was intended to improve the performance of the door system across the fleet.
However the work resulted in a much higher failure rate and the underlying door performance
worsened.

Traction motors and motor alternator sets on Class 319 units require a very high level of
maintenance attention to their commutators to remain reliable. The small number of maintenance
roads in Bedford coupled with the very high fleet mileages and the time consuming and intrusive
nature of the work, provided insufficient depot pitted road access for it to have been delivered
effectively. Consequently the condition of the commutators on the Class 319 traction motors and
motor alternators has deteriorated over recent years. This has led to electrical flashovers as a result
of poor commutation resulting in significant delays and cancellations.

The previous franchisee being First Group a.k.a. First Capital Connect. You'd think that someone at First Group would have remembered the previous problems with these trains before a different subsidiary took them on.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: GBM on March 03, 2022, 07:08:47 am

The previous franchisee being First Group a.k.a. First Capital Connect. You'd think that someone at First Group would have remembered the previous problems with these trains before a different subsidiary took them on.

Surely that depends on whether the DfT instructed First to take/use them?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: onthecushions on March 03, 2022, 11:29:49 am

The d.c. traction motor and pneumatically operated doors are not exactly key NASA space technologies. There is a little more excuse for software but that has had decades on the learning curve.

The 769 problems say more about present UK rolling stock engineering expertise than they do about the relatively simple 319 stock. This should last indefinitely, like the 4SUBs which went to the torch in full working order with only wear and tear maintenance over their (several) lives.

OTC


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: RichT54 on March 04, 2022, 07:10:32 am
A recent comment on RailUK forums

Quote
A friend at GWR has said 769s are having problems on the gradients of the NDL and that's just the empty test runs. Little confidence at GWR that a train full of passengers and suitcases just won't make it. Slim to zero chance of the 769s entering service on this route apparently.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-class-319-769-information-discussion.174866/post-5560691 (https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-class-319-769-information-discussion.174866/post-5560691)


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: onthecushions on March 04, 2022, 05:30:22 pm

A train's performance on a gradient does not depend on whether it is diesel or electric but on its adhesion and therefore tractive effort. This in turn depends on axle load, number of driven axles and rail conditions, where friction can vary typically between 12% and 30%. A  diesel might be less inclined to slip as it could not lay down as much power as when under electric drive.

There are a number of c1:100 gradients at the Eastern end, the worst is 1:96, not the 1:40's experienced in the Pennines!

OTC



Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: RichT54 on March 04, 2022, 05:55:23 pm
Does it have to be a problem due to lack of adhesion, or could it be that the motors would not have sufficient power to actually turn the wheels against the weight of the train trying to roll back down the slope?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: onthecushions on March 04, 2022, 06:03:20 pm

By analogy, an 08 shunter with three axles and only 400/260hp can move almost anything, although not very quickly!

OTC


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: paul7575 on March 04, 2022, 06:35:41 pm
319s coped with a quite significant gradient between City T/L and Blackfriars for years…


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Electric train on March 04, 2022, 07:08:41 pm
319s coped with a quite significant gradient between City T/L and Blackfriars for years…

And the loadings at peak times far exceeded any loading they will encounter on the North Downs.

It would be interesting to know what the failures are? 

Is down the legacy equipment on the train these failures could be in part due to the age of the equipment, this can be helped by heavy overhaul, and new / refurb equipment
Is due to the knowledge / experience of the maintenance staff; then this should improve over time  is it down to the new systems and the fine tuning of these
Is it the new systems, then fine tuning and experience should improve this.

If it is a combination of all 3 then that will take some concerted effort to resolve


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: nickswift99 on March 04, 2022, 08:17:30 pm
319s coped with a quite significant gradient between City T/L and Blackfriars for years…

But they were using electric traction not diesel.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: grahame on March 04, 2022, 09:01:06 pm
A train's performance on a gradient does not depend on whether it is diesel or electric but on its adhesion and therefore tractive effort. This in turn depends on axle load, number of driven axles and rail conditions, where friction can vary typically between 12% and 30%. A  diesel might be less inclined to slip as it could not lay down as much power as when under electric drive.

319s coped with a quite significant gradient between City T/L and Blackfriars for years…

But they were using electric traction not diesel.

Is the 769 heavier (having extra diesel engines and fuel tanks) so heavier weight on the drive wheels, and thus better traction (though less power) .   Or is the extra weight over unpowered wheels, meaning the same traction on the powered wheels and indeed a reduced performance because it has a heavier base load in the train as a whole?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: RichT54 on March 04, 2022, 09:23:15 pm
319s coped with a quite significant gradient between City T/L and Blackfriars for years…

But they were using electric traction not diesel.

I thought the 769 still used the electric traction motors when running on diesel. The diesel engines just drive alternators which generate the electricity.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: ellendune on March 04, 2022, 09:41:42 pm
319s coped with a quite significant gradient between City T/L and Blackfriars for years…

But they were using electric traction not diesel.

I thought the 769 still used the electric traction motors when running on diesel. The diesel engines just drive alternators which generate the electricity.

But when using diesel power the traction motors can only provide enough power if the alternators can supply that power.  If the diesel engines or the alternators are not powerful enough it doesn't matter how powerful the traction motors are. 


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: RichT54 on March 04, 2022, 10:04:16 pm
319s coped with a quite significant gradient between City T/L and Blackfriars for years…

But they were using electric traction not diesel.

I thought the 769 still used the electric traction motors when running on diesel. The diesel engines just drive alternators which generate the electricity.

But when using diesel power the traction motors can only provide enough power if the alternators can supply that power.  If the diesel engines or the alternators are not powerful enough it doesn't matter how powerful the traction motors are. 

Agreed and, if there was not enough power to get up an incline, would it come to a halt due to wheelspin (loss of adhesion), or because the motors just couldn't turn the wheels?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: stuving on March 04, 2022, 11:33:39 pm
Here's a comment about the 769s that may be relevant:
Quote
“Rebuilding can often be more difficult than building from new. Making the existing and new components work together can be a real challenge.”
Helen Simpson, innovation and development manager, Porterbrook

She's probably now saying to herself "well, that's one thing I got right at least".

That's from an article in May 2019 (https://www.therailwayhub.co.uk/3564/flex-the-go-anywhere-train/), so when the programme was already running late. Another quote suggests one of the areas of awkward co-operation:
Quote
Wabtec’s biggest engineering challenge was the new electronic control cubicle, which controls local power on the driving cars.

The "bus" isn't an infinite busbar, or anything like. The two alternators and the four motor/converter loads are looking at only each other, and that close coupling offers a lot of scope for instability, surges, etc. And if that damages the motors, they may even fail when not on diesel power. Also, if the alternators can't meet the motors' current demands, that limits the power and torque available.

I know the GTO converters do what the big series resistors do in a tram: allow the starting volts across the motor to be low and then to rise as the train speeds up. That should mean that the starting current from the alternators is quite low, while in the motors it's high. I can't find out whether the controllers still use field switching or weakening for higher speeds.

Neither have I found out anything about the ABB alternators, though this is a key component. Vivarail had a lot of problems with their light-weight modern TSA ones (similar to the ones in 800s, I think) in the 230s, and ended up replacing them all with much heavier but more robust old-style ones.

Making the train accelerate depends on the adhesion (at low speed) and power (in the middle and higher speed ranges). Adhesion depends on the fraction of the weight on driven wheels, which for a 319 is 0.36 (4/16 axles motored, but a lot of weight in the MSO). Adding the two diesel generators adds 15 t (over 10%) to two trailers, bringing that fraction down to 0.33. That's similar to an HST, and much lower than most modern units (typically 0.5-0.6).

Here is a more explicit statement from Porterbrook about the available power (specially for OTC):

Simon explains: “The MAN engines have a rail pedigree and are compliant with Stage IIIb emissions rules. Their maximum rating is 390kW, but we decided to have them working at less than that to give ourselves some ‘headroom’. In service, the two engines will deliver around 720kW at the DC Link (just under 1,000hp), which is somewhat less than the 1.2MW available in electric mode, but in general speeds are expected to be lower when working on diesel, and this arrangement gives good power in the mid-range. Performance should be comparable to a Class 150.”

An unusual usage of "somewhat"?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: nickswift99 on March 05, 2022, 07:55:32 am
That’s a useful post.

So if I have read that right the Diesel engines have added 10% to the weight while the available power has dropped 20%?

I appreciate there are other factors at play but that does suggest that performance is never going to be anywhere near that of a 319.

Does anyone know if a 150 has ever done the North Downs route?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: ellendune on March 05, 2022, 09:31:24 am
That’s a useful post.

So if I have read that right the Diesel engines have added 10% to the weight while the available power has dropped 20%?

No you fell into the trap as I did initially comparing 1000hp to 1.2MW

"In service, the two engines will deliver around 720kW at the DC Link (just under 1,000hp), which is somewhat less than the 1.2MW available in electric mode"

1.2MW to 720kW is a 40% drop in power!

Hence stuving's comment about an unusual usage of "somewhat".


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Fourbee on March 05, 2022, 09:41:43 am
Does anyone know if a 150 has ever done the North Downs route?

Not sure, but when pairs of ex-Southern 456s were used on the Guildford-Ascot runs they really struggled to get out of Guildford and that was on lightly loaded trains, without extra engines and equipment added. Wikipedia quotes the power output as 373kW (so about 750kW as a pair of 2-cars).


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: onthecushions on March 05, 2022, 11:27:14 am

Again, by analogy, the  unlamented "Tadpole"units that once inhabited this route weighed in at 113t with a 500hp diesel and only one motor bogie.

Slipping was a minor feature of the Southern's EE507, big traction motor, single motor car policy - part of the reason the 508's were banished to Merseyside.

The other problem is the perennial Diesel electric problem, that the generator/alternator produces more power at "right away" than the TM's can use, leading to excessive windings' temperature rise. I think the 47's had a minimum continuous speed of 27mph to avoid TM damage, which limited their freight use.

What it does mean is that the makers need time to get even an adaptation right before launching anything new into service and making the public or at least the TOC's driver managers put up with an unfinished job.

OTC


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on March 05, 2022, 12:48:09 pm
As a non-engineer who struggles to follow some of this (but very grateful to Stuving and others for trying to explain) can I add a few (largely anecdotal) points from a user of the North Downs Line?

Wikipedia informs us that each coach of a Turbo has a 350 hp/261 kW engine, so currently if all engines are working that's 1050 bhp/783 kW for a three coach train. Even then, in poor railhead conditions in autumn wheelspin has been a regular feature of the journey on the gradients around Sandhurst.

There have been journeys I have been on when an engine has been "out" on a coach when the Turbo (hint for those who will be using then when they eventually get to the West Country - it's the quietest and most restful part of Turbo travel if you travel in the coach without a working engine), and they have coped, but that still puts 700 hp down for a three coach train with the traction helped by the weight being over the active traction equipment. And I assume that a "conventional" hydraulic transmission does not suffer the power generation issues canvassed above.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Electric train on March 06, 2022, 07:08:42 am
As a non-engineer who struggles to follow some of this (but very grateful to Stuving and others for trying to explain) can I add a few (largely anecdotal) points from a user of the North Downs Line?

Wikipedia informs us that each coach of a Turbo has a 350 hp/261 kW engine, so currently if all engines are working that's 1050 bhp/783 kW for a three coach train. Even then, in poor railhead conditions in autumn wheelspin has been a regular feature of the journey on the gradients around Sandhurst.

There have been journeys I have been on when an engine has been "out" on a coach when the Turbo (hint for those who will be using then when they eventually get to the West Country - it's the quietest and most restful part of Turbo travel if you travel in the coach without a working engine), and they have coped, but that still puts 700 hp down for a three coach train with the traction helped by the weight being over the active traction equipment. And I assume that a "conventional" hydraulic transmission does not suffer the power generation issues canvassed above.

The service operated with class 117 type DMU which were 300 hp per power car for a 3 car a total of 600 hp.  Those DMU had a less efficient transmission.

Part of the reason I suspect for the higher power rating originally for the 165/6 would have been for increased acceleration to improve journey times on the Thames Valley NSE timetable in the early 1990's


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on March 08, 2022, 08:24:38 am
This morning there are 3 769s at the west end of the Reading depot, one of which has been vandalised by an aerosol paint attack.

How often has this happened to rolling stock before it enters service?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: grahame on March 08, 2022, 09:26:15 am
This morning there are 3 769s at the west end of the Reading depot, one of which has been vandalised by an aerosol paint attack.

How often has this happened to rolling stock before it enters service?

There is a good argument that suggests that this rolling stock entered service between 1987 and 1990, and what's happening now is a mid-life upgrade. Not uncommon for stock to be put out to grass, face the ravages of weather and vandalism, and then be brought back - what is different here is that it has been brought back and refurbished and THEN been vandalised!


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: RichT54 on March 08, 2022, 10:33:24 am
If they can't prevent trains from being vandalised at Reading Depot, where can they?



Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 08, 2022, 10:38:51 am
Reading depot is quite an easy target for the determined individual - very long and with little used roads and tracks nearby and not overlooked by anything other than the main railway lines at the western end.

North Pole is probably the best protected as it has all of the fencing put in that used to protect the Eurostar trains.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: RichT54 on March 08, 2022, 03:17:12 pm
It's interesting to note there have been a number of additional posts in the thread on RailUK Forums that I quoted previously. Several have dismissed the original comments about the 769 class not being able to handle the climbs on the North Downs Line as being nothing more than 'mess room gossip'. Some members there have said that the Northern and TfW's 769s are regularly managing climbs on diesel power that are steeper than anything on the NDL.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on March 08, 2022, 05:13:49 pm
They will be able handle the climbs.  They won’t be able to handle them quite as well as Turbos when on diesel.  The big issue is if one engine isn’t working - that leaves only one left and then they will struggle - especially during Autumn.  The engines are proving unreliable.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Fourbee on March 09, 2022, 11:52:09 am
The service operated with class 117 type DMU which were 300 hp per power car for a 3 car a total of 600 hp.  Those DMU had a less efficient transmission.

Part of the reason I suspect for the higher power rating originally for the 165/6 would have been for increased acceleration to improve journey times on the Thames Valley NSE timetable in the early 1990's

I remember drivers occasionally having to change down on the 117s out of Guildford (3rd to 2nd I think at about the "half way" point), maybe more frequently during leaf fall as not as much speed had been picked up at the bottom of the slope.

The turbos tend to be going a fair old lick at the bottom and power their way through.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: ChrisB on March 10, 2022, 06:56:59 pm
These are a long way from introduction - driver training can't start until ASLEF sign the units off, and there are recognised adjustments required before they can be accepted in service. It was thought very unlikely they'll make the May timetable change.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: RichT54 on March 20, 2022, 09:39:39 pm
GWR was so full of promises back on 26/08/20:

https://news.gwr.com/news/great-western-railway-receives-the-uk-s-first-tri-mode-train (https://news.gwr.com/news/great-western-railway-receives-the-uk-s-first-tri-mode-train)

Quote
GWR has received the first train in the UK able to run on overhead and third-rail electric lines, as well as under its own diesel power, which is expected to be introduced on services between Reading and Gatwick by early 2021.

Quote
Provided by Porterbrook Leasing, the first of 19 Class 769 Flex trains has arrived at GWR’s Reading Depot for an extensive programme of staff training and testing.

Offering more carriages than the trains they are replacing, the Class 769 fleet was specially commissioned by GWR to be able to run under overhead wires in London and the Thames Valley, and to take advantage of third rail provision where it exists on the North Downs line. The trains will support GWR to realise long-held plans to expand services over the North Downs line between Reading and Redhill and then through to Gatwick.

The trains will enable the release of some of GWR’s diesel-powered Turbo trains to add capacity in the Bristol area and support the ability to launch new routes through the city.

The innovative fleet of tri-mode trains will operate in four-carriage sets which have been refurbished inside and out, with free WiFi and power at each seat, air cooling, bigger luggage racks, and new seat covers. Equipped with new diesel engines and combined with their electric capability, each Class 769 will offer a quieter and cleaner experience for customers than the trains they are replacing.

Quote
GWR Head of Fleet Production John Murphy said:

“A lot of hard work has been done to make sure people feel that they can travel safely at the present time, and that includes running more trains and carriages to make extra room.

“Planning is well under way for a further uplift in services in mid-September, re-introducing even more services across the GWR network to help accommodate a return to travel for school, college or for work and adding some new services for the first time.

“This news shows we have not stopped looking at ways to further improve our service for customers.”

On the GWR North Downs line, the trains will facilitate a return to usual Sunday frequencies of two trains an hour, and the ability to run three trains per hour from Reading to Redhill on Saturdays. GWR is working with industry partners to extend this to further off-peak weekday services as well as extending these through to Gatwick Airport, as works at the station are completed.

Quote
We’re currently seeing the biggest investment in the network since Brunel so we can offer more trains, more seats, and shorter, more frequent journeys and continue the network’s heritage of helping connect more businesses to new and prosperous markets. Through a series of initiatives we aim to be a good neighbour to the communities we serve and are committed to making a positive social impact in those regions.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: bobm on May 20, 2022, 07:45:01 pm
I noticed some residing in the up carriage sidings at Oxford on Tuesday.

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/769ox.jpg)


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 20, 2022, 08:02:28 pm
Part of a training programme for local graffiti artists.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: TonyN on July 08, 2022, 04:17:31 pm
Not good news.

Northern have instructed drivers of 769's to run on Diesel at all times due to Interferance with signalling equipment.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: stuving on July 08, 2022, 05:02:20 pm
Not good news.

Northern have instructed drivers of 769's to run on Diesel at all times due to Interferance with signalling equipment.

Followed by better news - that order was in place for four weeks and rescinded on 20th June. It always was a "play it safe" overreaction while diagnosing the fault which, being the VCB, was an unchanged part of the original 319. 



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