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Journey by Journey => London to Didcot, Oxford and Banbury => Topic started by: bradshaw on April 19, 2018, 06:04:17 pm



Title: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: bradshaw on April 19, 2018, 06:04:17 pm
Just seen on Twitter,
Philip Haigh states
GWR to bring 19 tri-mode Class 769 4-car trains to Reading-Oxford and Reading-Gatwick services from next spring. Will run on AC and DC electrification and diesel. Will initially support introduction of refurbed trains to Heathrow Express.

https://twitter.com/philatrail/status/987002846846636032?s=21


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on April 19, 2018, 06:34:14 pm
‘Reading to Oxford’ presumably means the peak Reading-Oxford services that are Turbo operated as well as possibly some of the Oxford to Didcot shuttles?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: stuving on April 19, 2018, 07:00:20 pm
Here, in answer to my earlier quibble about the status of this news, it is from Rail (https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/nineteen-tri-mode-flex-class-769s-for-gwr):
Quote
Nineteen tri-mode Flex Class 769s for GWR
19/04/2018 in Network
(https://storage.railmagazine.com/website/1/root/gwr-4k-210417_w268.jpg)
Nineteen tri-mode Class 769 Flex units will enter traffic with Great Western Railway from Spring 2019.

They will be able to operate using third-rail, overhead wires or diesel engines, and will be used initially to support GWR’s introduction of refurbished Class 387/1s on Heathrow Express.

They will feature free WiFi and power at every seat. The trains will be fitted with air-cooling, extra luggage space and new seat covers.

GWR said in a statement: “Initially, the fleet will support the introduction of refreshed trains on Heathrow Express services, but will be predominantly be used on routes between Reading and Gatwick, and Reading and Oxford, where the train’s tri-mode can be used to its fullest. However, the tri-mode nature of the train will give GWR maximum flexibility to use them in other areas of the network should they be required.

“Final details of exactly how and where the new fleet will be used are currently being drawn up, and expected to be finalised later this year.”

GWR Managing Director, Mark Hopwood said: “We are already delivering the biggest fleet upgrade in a generation across the Great Western network, but today’s news shows we have not stopped looking at ways to improve our service for customers by adding extra capacity to our network.”

Mary Grant, CEO of Porterbrook, said: “These trains will offer GWR greater operational flexibility with reduced operating costs; at the same time their conversion and upgrade will see skilled engineering jobs secured in the UK supply chain.”

The four-car trains will be converted from redundant Class 319 electric multiple units. This releases a similar number of Class 165/’166’ Turbos for use in the Bristol area.

    The FULL story will appear in RAIL 852, published on May 9, and available digitally from May 5 on Android/iPad.
    To read about the initial Flex concept, read RAIL 818, available digitally.

    Author:  Richard Clinnick


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on April 19, 2018, 07:09:42 pm
It is, obviously, good news to get more capacity.  Just the extra strain on crew training, and the reliability and power of the units themselves that cast a bit of a shadow in my opinion.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: ray951 on April 19, 2018, 08:55:00 pm
I suppose I should be grateful about the increase in capacity, but I can't help feeling we are being sold a pup.
These trains are untested, will require more training, will be slower than 387 and probably 165, are 30 years old (older than 165/166) and have no air conditioning. If they at so good why are they being removed from their current services. Wouldn't it be simpler to complete the electrification to Oxford and use the 319 ( no need to undertake the hybrid conversion) on the short service to Heathrow.
Of course we all know with the current Secretary of State that he will do anything to get a private company to spend money (ie the leasing company) rather than spend public money ( ie Network Rail).
Rant over.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Oberon on April 19, 2018, 09:35:25 pm
I think The Dept for Transport, or whatever it's called these days, will do just about anything to defer or bin the idea of electrifying to Oxford. And this is a good example of that..


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: paul7755 on April 19, 2018, 10:25:44 pm
‘Reading to Oxford’ presumably means the peak Reading-Oxford services that are Turbo operated as well as possibly some of the Oxford to Didcot shuttles?
Henley and Windsor branches perhaps?  If they are sensible they’ll keep them out of the full glare of publicity, ie not go to Paddington...

Paul


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on April 19, 2018, 11:10:31 pm
Quote
will be slower than 387 and probably 165

As EMU's the 319's were 100mph units, weren't they?

So, yes a bit slower than a 387, but a bit quicker than a Turbo, although true to say we don't know what their speed will be under diesel power?

Kind of irrelevant on the North Downs anyway, as I don't think there is any linespeed above 70?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on April 19, 2018, 11:18:25 pm
As EMU's the 319's were 100mph units, weren't they?

So, yes a bit slower than a 387, but a bit quicker than a Turbo, although true to say we don't know what their speed will be under diesel power?

Kind of irrelevant on the North Downs anyway, as I don't think there is any linespeed above 70?

100mph yes, but very slow accelerating compared with modern electric units (though probably slightly better than a Turbo).  Maximum speed on diesel is expected to be in the 90+mph area I believe, but how long it takes to get to that value remains to be seen - along with how it'll cope with accelerating on the gradients of the North Downs.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: grahame on April 19, 2018, 11:21:31 pm
Quote
will be slower than 387 and probably 165

As EMU's the 319's were 100mph units, weren't they?

So, yes a bit slower than a 387, but a bit quicker than a Turbo, although true to say we don't know what their speed will be under diesel power?

Kind of irrelevant on the North Downs anyway, as I don't think there is any linespeed above 70?

Top speed under diesel - two conflicting views - 80mph and 86mph .   Bear in mind that the more important question may be how quickly the trains get up to a decent speed rather than the top speed that ca be reached.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: ray951 on April 20, 2018, 09:34:58 am
The 769 in electric are surely going to be much slower to accelerate than a 319 as they will weigh much more.
They will have the weight of the diesel engines and all the ancillaries (exhausts, radiators,etc), fuel, air cooling equipment, wifi equipment, etc.
Weight impacts on acceleration and not top speed (it just takes much longer to get there).

Also these trains are already 30 years how long do they expect them to last?
Won't they become the oldest trains on the network soon (except for Isle of Wight and class 150)?

Does anyone know what the rationale was for removing them from their current duties? Was it just age and lack of modern facilities such as air-con?



Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: nickswift99 on April 20, 2018, 12:05:56 pm
Class 700 replaced the 319s. The 319s don't support ATO which is needed for high density operations in the Thameslink core and there weren't enough sets to cover all of the new Thameslink routes so it made sense to get rid of them and have a single standard fleet.

It'll be a real blast from the past for me as I remember the 319s being introduced into service as the first non-slam door stock on the Brighton Main Line. They were a real step up from the VEPs and CIGs.

I also remember the 165/6 introduction which was another leap from the Class 101 DMUs. However, the 319s were never as nice internally as the 165/6 IMHO, primarily due to the wider loading gauge on the 165/6 which provided a roomer interior.

If this story is true, it does beg the question why 800s are going to be used on the Bedwyn services, when one of these sets could easily run to Newbury/Reading.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on April 20, 2018, 12:57:12 pm
Quote
If this story is true, it does beg the question why 800s are going to be used on the Bedwyn services

Indeed, and one wonders whether a 4-coach 769 would fit in the Bedwyn turnback without need to extend it (which as far as I know work has yet to start on)?

Is an 8-coach 769 longer or shorter than an 8-coach 387? (which is what the platform extensions at Thatcham and Theale are being extended to accommodate)

Also (while I'm at it!), will a 4-coach 769 fit at some of the smaller stations on the North Downs?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: didcotdean on April 20, 2018, 02:00:49 pm
Although I share the reservations of how well these might be able to work in practice until demonstrated, I do at least commend the action of getting more stock to help patch over some of the holes at least in the short (and sadly probably the medium) term left by the Electrification debacle. My only fear there is that there aren't really enough.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: nickswift99 on April 20, 2018, 02:37:32 pm
Quote
If this story is true, it does beg the question why 800s are going to be used on the Bedwyn services

Indeed, and one wonders whether a 4-coach 769 would fit in the Bedwyn turnback without need to extend it (which as far as I know work has yet to start on)?

Is an 8-coach 769 longer or shorter than an 8-coach 387? (which is what the platform extensions at Thatcham and Theale are being extended to accommodate)

Also (while I'm at it!), will a 4-coach 769 fit at some of the smaller stations on the North Downs?

A 4 car 319 is roughly 80 metres long. A 3 car 165 is 66m long and a 4 car 387 is roughly 81 metres.

I don't think the 319s ever had SDO fitted as they were typically run in 4 and 8 car sets and stopped at stations that could take 8 cars.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: ray951 on April 20, 2018, 03:20:32 pm
Quote
If this story is true, it does beg the question why 800s are going to be used on the Bedwyn services

Indeed, and one wonders whether a 4-coach 769 would fit in the Bedwyn turnback without need to extend it (which as far as I know work has yet to start on)?

Is an 8-coach 769 longer or shorter than an 8-coach 387? (which is what the platform extensions at Thatcham and Theale are being extended to accommodate)

Also (while I'm at it!), will a 4-coach 769 fit at some of the smaller stations on the North Downs?

A 4 car 319 is roughly 80 metres long. A 3 car 165 is 66m long and a 4 car 387 is roughly 81 metres.

I don't think the 319s ever had SDO fitted as they were typically run in 4 and 8 car sets and stopped at stations that could take 8 cars.
Appleford springs to mind as well.
I know there were plans to lengthen the stations between Didcot and Oxford including Appleford, but since electrification has been stopped nothing has happened. 


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: nickswift99 on April 20, 2018, 03:48:51 pm
Quote
If this story is true, it does beg the question why 800s are going to be used on the Bedwyn services

Indeed, and one wonders whether a 4-coach 769 would fit in the Bedwyn turnback without need to extend it (which as far as I know work has yet to start on)?

Is an 8-coach 769 longer or shorter than an 8-coach 387? (which is what the platform extensions at Thatcham and Theale are being extended to accommodate)

Also (while I'm at it!), will a 4-coach 769 fit at some of the smaller stations on the North Downs?

A 4 car 319 is roughly 80 metres long. A 3 car 165 is 66m long and a 4 car 387 is roughly 81 metres.

I don't think the 319s ever had SDO fitted as they were typically run in 4 and 8 car sets and stopped at stations that could take 8 cars.
Appleford springs to mind as well.
I know there were plans to lengthen the stations between Didcot and Oxford including Appleford, but since electrification has been stopped nothing has happened. 

The Sectional Appendix says that Appleford is 76m long so would still need extending for a 769.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: ray951 on April 20, 2018, 04:16:51 pm
I guess we don't know for certain how many seats would a class 769 have; looking at the data for a 319 it would have less than a 3 car 165 but more than a 2 car 165.
A 319 having 16F/256S (although this may vary between the different types) and a 2 car 165 having 170S/16F and a 3 car 264S/24F (although not sure whether this includes the changes to meet the disability requirements).


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: nickswift99 on April 20, 2018, 04:50:36 pm
Fundamentally, you're swapping width (3+2 seating) for length (2+2 seating).

You'll then lose seats for a DDA compliant toilet and apparently there's going to be more luggage space, so remove some more seats for that. Essentially, a 4 car 769 isn't going to have as many seats as a 165. It's only going to be marginally faster on electric (but will accelerate faster) and we've yet to see what its diesel performance will be like.

For the North Downs Line, or even an Oxford-Gatwick service (subject to capacity enhancements between Oxford/Didcot), I think this is a good option and the combination of diesel and third rail will suit it well.

I would be concerned about these trains running into Paddington as future traffic density will depend on acceleration and similar traction top speeds which these won't have.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: didcotdean on April 20, 2018, 04:59:32 pm
Elsewhere I have seen claims that the GWR 769s will have some 2+3 seating in the middle two carriages. Certainly over the years there were 319s with this type of seating.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: paul7755 on April 20, 2018, 06:07:33 pm
I would be concerned about these trains running into Paddington as future traffic density will depend on acceleration and similar traction top speeds which these won't have.

I think the recent rumours, and now taking this published announcement as more evidence, seem to support the view that they won’t normally go to Paddington.

Paul


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: onthecushions on April 20, 2018, 07:15:30 pm

IMHO the 319's are very good, BR designed trains, like all the 317 - 322 classes and still state of the art, even without inverter drives. As long as the flex conversion is done competently they'll last 60 years. The innards can let them down though but a modern refurbishment would be to higher standards than in past decades.

Remember the Tadpoles!

OTC


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: devonexpress on April 20, 2018, 09:52:15 pm
Aren't more 387's being released next year from C2C anyway? Surely a more streamlined fleet would be better for GWR, this only complicates it further, and then puts up the cost tickets in extra training, refresher training, parts etc.

What happened to the battery powered 379 that was going about in Greater Anglia? Surely Didcot to Oxford would be enough on batteries, and it could be recharged back on electric overheads?   Also GWR removed the 3rd rail, which could have been used on the Gatwick services. Either way, someone doesn't seem to have a lot of common sense here.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: grahame on April 20, 2018, 10:08:07 pm
Aren't more 387's being released next year from C2C anyway? Surely a more streamlined fleet would be better for GWR, this only complicates it further, and then puts up the cost tickets in extra training, refresher training, parts etc.

I'm sure GWR would love them. Just need to string up wires along the North Downs line and to Oxford, Windsor, Banbury and Henley.  ;D


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Adelante_CCT on April 20, 2018, 10:26:49 pm
Aren't more 387's being released next year from C2C anyway?
Likely to be during 2021


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: paul7755 on April 20, 2018, 10:40:25 pm
What happened to the battery powered 379 that was going about in Greater Anglia? Surely Didcot to Oxford would be enough on batteries, and it could be recharged back on electric overheads?   Also GWR removed the 3rd rail, which could have been used on the Gatwick services. Either way, someone doesn't seem to have a lot of common sense here.
Battery 379 was converted back after the trial.  Do you mean 387 shoegear? I don’t believe GWR removed their 387 pickup shoes.  I’ve seen a few people questioning online why it is still there, but all the recent deliveries still have shoebeams visible, although the actual shoes will be retracted, and all did DC testing on the Brighton line.

Paul


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: devonexpress on April 21, 2018, 09:00:06 am
What happened to the battery powered 379 that was going about in Greater Anglia? Surely Didcot to Oxford would be enough on batteries, and it could be recharged back on electric overheads?   Also GWR removed the 3rd rail, which could have been used on the Gatwick services. Either way, someone doesn't seem to have a lot of common sense here.
Battery 379 was converted back after the trial.  Do you mean 387 shoegear? I don’t believe GWR removed their 387 pickup shoes.  I’ve seen a few people questioning online why it is still there, but all the recent deliveries still have shoebeams visible, although the actual shoes will be retracted, and all did DC testing on the Brighton line.

Paul

I was told the shoegear was removed after testing on the Brighton Mainline? As for the Battery 379, where any test results handed out? Also wasn't it only operate a branchline service, where as if a battery power mode was fitted to the 387's they could then charge up from Didcot back up to Paddington.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on April 21, 2018, 09:13:57 am
I think there would be far too much risk operating a regular battery operated service on a key trunk route such as Didcot to Oxford.  Branch lines, yes, and then when the technology matures and proves itself then you can start to think about wider application.  The fact the 379 trial hasn’t come to anything so far perhaps indicates cost and/or reliability weren’t what they hoped for.

Regarding B&H services, the 769s with poor acceleration and ‘only’ 100mph top speed would impact on paths available for the fast Bedwyn’s.  Much better to be using the higher quality and 125mph capable 800/802s IMHO. 


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: paul7755 on April 21, 2018, 12:49:08 pm
I was told the shoegear was removed after testing on the Brighton Mainline...
I don’t think so.  What I’m seeing is that all the trains still have shoe-beams, as can easily be seen in the numerous videos available online.  The shoe arm is in the raised position when on AC, and the shoes themselves are nearly out of sight behind the shoe-beam.  Now the contact shoe itself can easily be removed from the arm as it is a wearing or sacrificial part, but it’s absence doesn’t really mean the DC capability is “removed”.   

Quote
As for the Battery 379, where any test results handed out? Also wasn't it only operate a branchline service, where as if a battery power mode was fitted to the 387's they could then charge up from Didcot back up to Paddington.
Nothing was ever made public AFAIK.  Suggests to me that the trial wasn’t as overwhelmingly successful as battery fans might have hoped.

Paul


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: 4064ReadingAbbey on April 21, 2018, 01:23:01 pm
I was told the shoegear was removed after testing on the Brighton Mainline...
I don’t think so.  What I’m seeing is that all the trains still have shoe-beams, as can easily be seen in the numerous videos available online.  The shoe arm is in the raised position when on AC, and the shoes themselves are nearly out of sight behind the shoe-beam.  Now the contact shoe itself can easily be removed from the arm as it is a wearing or sacrificial part, but it’s absence doesn’t really mean the DC capability is “removed”.   

Quote
As for the Battery 379, where any test results handed out? Also wasn't it only operate a branchline service, where as if a battery power mode was fitted to the 387's they could then charge up from Didcot back up to Paddington.
Nothing was ever made public AFAIK.  Suggests to me that the trial wasn’t as overwhelmingly successful as battery fans might have hoped.

Paul

If I understood an article in one of the technical magazines correctly - and, sorry, I can't remember the reference - the batteries from the 379 trial have been bought by Vivarail and are now being used for the battery packs for the Class 230 conversions.

As for the results of the 379 trial indications in the technical press were that it was shown to work. The snags being that the battery capacity was marginal for the task and the batteries are very expensive.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: devonexpress on April 21, 2018, 02:07:19 pm
Right, so had a good look on the internet.  IPEMU Class 379, Test was successful in that the battery would allow for 60 mile running before becoming empty.  Enough to do the Oxford to Didcot shuttle 6 times, or to allow for running in between non electrified sections of the Reading to Gatwick line. However, as it was only a short trial funded by NR, the batteries where removed after completion of the testing.  It now seems as has been posted Vivarail have taken on the technology. So if it proves to be successful in proper passenger service then who knows?

It just seems a shame that Bombarider, aren't using the trial as a benchmark for battery operated trains or if not haven't looked at retrofitting small diesel engines into the Class 387's for off wire power.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: ChrisB on April 21, 2018, 05:19:27 pm
GWR have only mewntioned BAN-RDG, and RDG to GTW. so no PAD runs at all. I could easily see BAN-GTW services, utilising the underpass east of RDG to access the Guildford route.

It could also cover the Cotswold stopper too, releasing yet another turbo.

That would just leave the TV branches needing the odd turbo.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: didcotdean on April 21, 2018, 05:50:52 pm
There is currently one residual through Oxford-Paddington stopper (fast from/to Maidenhead) in each direction, up early morning and back evening peak. Not clear what would happen with this in a 'no turbo' scenario, apart from being binned.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: grahame on April 21, 2018, 06:19:55 pm
I could easily see BAN-GTW services, utilising the underpass east of RDG to access the Guildford route.

Onward dreams towards extending from Banbury to Birmingham, and from Gatwick to Brighton? 


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: grahame on April 21, 2018, 06:33:49 pm
There is currently one residual through Oxford-Paddington stopper (fast from/to Maidenhead) in each direction, up early morning and back evening peak. Not clear what would happen with this in a 'no turbo' scenario, apart from being binned.

GWR has a history (old and new companies) of extra stops in expresses on peak routes at busy commuter times and very late at night - witness extra stops at stations like Severn Tunnel Junction and Dilton Marsh.  As well as binning the service, would there be an option of starting a first service on am 802 diagram from Oxford somewhat ahead of the normal clock face to still provide a direct link to London, and reversing the process in the evening?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: ChrisB on April 21, 2018, 06:39:09 pm
I could easily see BAN-GTW services, utilising the underpass east of RDG to access the Guildford route.

Onward dreams towards extending from Banbury to Birmingham, and from Gatwick to Brighton? 

Yep, definitely a dream. Why the need to mirror XC on the former, and there line's full to Three Bridges at least, if not to Brighton. On an refreshed 319? That is likely to be the new 'pacer' in less than a decade.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: didcotdean on April 21, 2018, 07:08:02 pm
GWR has a history (old and new companies) of extra stops in expresses on peak routes at busy commuter times and very late at night - witness extra stops at stations like Severn Tunnel Junction and Dilton Marsh.  As well as binning the service, would there be an option of starting a first service on am 802 diagram from Oxford somewhat ahead of the normal clock face to still provide a direct link to London, and reversing the process in the evening?
The up service stops at the rare trifecta of Radley, Culham and Appleford although the down Radley only. I guess only Radley would ever even come into consideration for warranting stopping of a fast Oxford.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Electric train on April 21, 2018, 07:09:59 pm
What happened to the battery powered 379 that was going about in Greater Anglia? Surely Didcot to Oxford would be enough on batteries, and it could be recharged back on electric overheads?   Also GWR removed the 3rd rail, which could have been used on the Gatwick services. Either way, someone doesn't seem to have a lot of common sense here.
Battery 379 was converted back after the trial.  Do you mean 387 shoegear? I don’t believe GWR removed their 387 pickup shoes.  I’ve seen a few people questioning online why it is still there, but all the recent deliveries still have shoebeams visible, although the actual shoes will be retracted, and all did DC testing on the Brighton line.

Paul

387 have retractable shoe gear, therefore it looks like it has been removed but it has not.  It is not in GWR gift to remove the shoe gear as they do not own the units, the trains would need modifying as there are interlocks on the shoe gear.

The DfT want inter operable EMUs for redeployment etc.

Its unlikely 387 will be retrofitted with diesels, having batteries fitted to 3387 (and other units) is an option certainly on the DC network to capture the energy from regen braking to reduce the need for adding more traction substation capacity near stations ................ its a bit of work I have a loose involvement in at work


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: hassaanhc on April 21, 2018, 07:29:11 pm
There is currently one residual through Oxford-Paddington stopper (fast from/to Maidenhead) in each direction, up early morning and back evening peak. Not clear what would happen with this in a 'no turbo' scenario, apart from being binned.
There is also the 2P99 2006 Banbury to London Paddington, which stops at most stations on the way.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: didcotdean on April 21, 2018, 09:39:05 pm
Yes that one has to be part of the consideration as well, although it is a bit different from the other two. It does mean the direct connection to London for the BAN-OXF stations is a bit odd.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: paul7755 on April 22, 2018, 01:53:10 pm
Do you mean 387 shoegear? I don’t believe GWR removed their 387 pickup shoes.  I’ve seen a few people questioning online why it is still there, but all the recent deliveries still have shoebeams visible, although the actual shoes will be retracted, and all did DC testing on the Brighton line.

387 have retractable shoe gear, therefore it looks like it has been removed but it has not.
The very point I was just making.  A similar situation exists with some of the LM 350/1s, the shoes are still there but almost impossible to see at first glance.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on June 26, 2018, 09:46:51 pm
Anyone on our network know what's happening about these trains?

In the light of recent correspondence here about air condition/cooling, cascading of Turbo trains etc, I have done some Googling to  find out what specification we can expect. I ended up on something called RailUK Forums (a pale imitation of our own!) where there was much conflicting information as to the comfort of the trains from which they are being converted, and the delightful suggestion we should follow the French and call them Bi-Bis (rather than trimodes).

More significantly is the suggestion that there are problems with developing the trains - it is suggested that there is not yet a working prototype, and there may be problems with the conversion.

Should we start worrying? 


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 27, 2018, 12:48:55 am
I don’t think we should start worrying, but I do think we should keep a watchful eye as clearly the development programme is slipping.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Noggin on August 13, 2018, 06:45:49 pm
Anyone on our network know what's happening about these trains?

In the light of recent correspondence here about air condition/cooling, cascading of Turbo trains etc, I have done some Googling to  find out what specification we can expect. I ended up on something called RailUK Forums (a pale imitation of our own!) where there was much conflicting information as to the comfort of the trains from which they are being converted, and the delightful suggestion we should follow the French and call them Bi-Bis (rather than trimodes).

More significantly is the suggestion that there are problems with developing the trains - it is suggested that there is not yet a working prototype, and there may be problems with the conversion.

Should we start worrying? 

It depends on whether you are worried about them being introduced, or not being introduced ;-)

More seriously, the thread on WNXX has seen quite a lot of informed comment, including that of an ex-Alstom electrical engineer fairly well acquainted with them and a GWR manager. There were suggestions that whilst the issues with the traction kit may have been resolved, there may be more fundamental issues with the ability of the underframes to carry the extra weight. Wouldn't hold your breath waiting for their introduction, put it that way.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on August 16, 2018, 10:32:22 pm
Noggin  - the answer to your question is - both! It is a shame that the short-sighted decision to halt electrification has led to what appears to be a looming rolling stock crisis as the Turbos are cascaded to replace trains that are not too much older which are being transferred elsewhere, but services which were (presumably) assumed to be electrified by now (Didcot - Oxford, the Henley and Windsor branches) now have to be served by something that does not need OHL electicity. Recycled late 1980s stopgaps do not look an attractive substitute.

Does your source indicate if the problem is corrosion of these ageing trains, or simply that the weight of engines and generators is too much for the structure? Either way, it is not looking good.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Noggin on August 17, 2018, 02:33:33 pm
Noggin  - the answer to your question is - both! It is a shame that the short-sighted decision to halt electrification has led to what appears to be a looming rolling stock crisis as the Turbos are cascaded to replace trains that are not too much older which are being transferred elsewhere, but services which were (presumably) assumed to be electrified by now (Didcot - Oxford, the Henley and Windsor branches) now have to be served by something that does not need OHL electicity. Recycled late 1980s stopgaps do not look an attractive substitute.

Does your source indicate if the problem is corrosion of these ageing trains, or simply that the weight of engines and generators is too much for the structure? Either way, it is not looking good.

I believe that one of the original problems was one of electrical engineering - complications in having two motor/generator sets wired together, I believe the second was a combination of weight and corrosion. Shame, as the concept was quite a good one in theory.

Of course since the project was started, Stadler have entered the market with a UK version of the Flirt bi-mode (though apparently they are none too light either), so if they behave themselves when launched on Greater Anglia you have to wonder whether the prospective customers for the 769s will cut their losses and buy new trains.

The other thing to consider is that battery technology continues to advance, so it's not necessarily a bad thing for the Thames Valley branches to continue with Turbos for a few years until there's a mature solution. As for Oxford, isn't the plan that it will be wired, once the station has been rebuilt? Given that much of the line to Didcot has already been rebuilt and resignalled that *should* be a relatively quick and cheap job, which might encourage further work.     



Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 17, 2018, 02:45:37 pm
I can see a rebuilt station at Oxford being at least five years away.  Hopefully they can construct Platform 5, electrify, and then do the main station rebuild.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: grahame on September 17, 2018, 08:49:58 pm
First 769 Unit at Great Central Railway for testing



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ScTcNgt4cs


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: bignosemac on September 18, 2018, 04:37:15 pm
Looks okay sat in a siding.

It was dragged to the GCR and is yet to run under its own power.

I'm still of the the opinion that it's the wrong answer to questions made up by Porterbrook though. I think they're selling a pup to the TOCs who have ordered them.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on September 18, 2018, 06:03:28 pm
I agree with BNM on this one, especially if they prove unreliable, and money is not spent on upgrading the interiors. Are they likely to be 5 across seating? But for what appears to be a shortage of suitable diesel units, we maybe better of keeping the Turbos for the duites for which they were designed and looking for some more comfortable stock for longer distance GWR services further west.

Incidentally, I assume the old green diesel shunter at one end is not part of the "trimode" element!


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 18, 2018, 06:15:19 pm
There are too many unknowns for me to be happy coming to any conclusions or yet.  It’s encouraging to see a train (and a smart looking train externally at least) finally ready for proper testing, worrying that’s it’s taken so long to get this far.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: bignosemac on September 29, 2018, 03:39:42 pm
It lives!

The first Class 769 seen in the wild has moved under its own power for the first time, while testing on the Great Central Railway.

https://www.facebook.com/paul.biggs.7798/posts/10213648806877339


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: grahame on September 29, 2018, 05:35:34 pm
The first Class 769 seen in the wild ...

If you add a class 31 to the front of a 769, can you call it an "800" and use it InterCity?

Sorry - silly season


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: onthecushions on October 10, 2018, 10:02:18 pm

Looks like the 769 works...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcuNaAe8SOU

OTC


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on October 10, 2018, 11:19:25 pm
Acceleration, well, initial accelaration at least, looks better than I feared it might be.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on October 11, 2018, 08:44:06 am
Is it just me, but it still sounded like an EMU (traction motors?) as it was pulling away.

Acceleration looked better than a 16x.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: stuving on October 11, 2018, 12:49:37 pm
Acceleration, well, initial accelaration at least, looks better than I feared it might be.

Now, don't get all excited. The concern was that the output of the two engines, even before alternator and inverter losses, was well below the continuous rating of the motors. But the motors can't draw that much power at low speed; the prime power limit only cuts in once it's got going. So, for the standing start we saw there, it should do pretty well even with only one engine! (The extra weight will penalise it a little, though.)

What will be an interesting comparison will be with the Stadler bi-modes GA are getting - the 4-car ones are due to get 1920 kW of prime power, compared with less (maybe much less) than 800 in a 769.

To respond to Thatcham Crossing, those 319s are old, so use classic DC traction motors, and these ones (GEC G315BZ) are famous for their whine. I heard an engine in the first carriage (with its fan whine as prominent as the exhaust), the motors on the second, nothing on the third (but then neither pantograph nor transformer should made much noise) and expected to hear another engine in the fourth. I didn't, certainly not as loud as the first, so I'm not sure if it was not there, not running, or if the driver had throttled back by then.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Adelante_CCT on December 13, 2018, 05:27:35 pm
A class 319 has been arriving Reading TCD over the past few days (by road) for driver training/familiarisation


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on January 23, 2019, 10:36:47 pm
Quote

   
Re: East - West Rail update (Oxford to Bedford) - ongoing discussion
« Reply #190 on: January 21, 2019, 10:34:02 pm »
Reply with quoteQuote
Quote from: eightonedee on January 21, 2019, 10:13:10 pm
1 - I sincerely hope that the Didcot/Oxford shuttle is only temporary. Indeed I understood the rationale of the bi-mode/trimode was to restore a proper full stopping service all the way between Reading and Oxford, mitigating the adverse impact of the dreadful decision to cut the electrification to Oxford short at Didcot.

2 - I am not so sure that the case for trains beyond Oxford all going west to Swindon/Bristol etc is strong. The potential passenger traffic from the Reading/Basingstoke/Winchester/Southampton/Bournemouth axis surely justifies a substantial part of any southward traffic going east. Reading alone generates considerable volume, and more capacity might encourage more to take the train not the car. I have over the years had a number of regular meeting commitments in Norfolk and Cambridgeshire and used the car to avoid the hassle of crossing London by tube at peak times.

1 - From what I’ve so far heard, the Tri-mode 769s will not be used on services to Oxford.  They will be used on Reading to Gatwick trains as well as covering for the loss of 387s to Heathrow Express on the Paddington to Didcot services, as well as possibly some of the Thames Valley branches.  That of course may not be the current plan, or it may be the current plan but will change.  I’ll see if I can find out.

Having realised that II and myself had indulged in a little "thread drift" on the East-West thread, I've brought this topic home.

This morning, during a mildly frustrating commute (one delay, resulting in missed connection, next onward train cancelled - near half hour wait at Reading) I arrived at the end of platforms 4-6, to find the duty manager and a GWR "suit" who introduced himself as Mark (not that one!) discussing erecting barriers in the vicinity. Concerned that someone might have thought it a good idea to introduce another internal gate line, thereby making it even more of a challenge to make my connections in the limited time often available, I butted in to enquire, and was relieved to hear that it was some movable tape barriers to help deal with future Reading - Paddington closures and diverting London bound passengers to Waterloo.

We had a chat about some concerns, during which I was told that GWR did intend to introduce class 769 bi-modes to restore a full Reading- Oxford stopping service in the coming year. Furthermore I was told GWR still hoped to introduce a third service each hour on the North Downs line, preferably a semi-fast Gatwick and some to run from Oxford.

Incidentally there seems a growing collection of ex-Thameslink 319s at Reading depot, but as far as I can see from the passing train they don't look to have any additional underfloor gubbins by way of diesel engines, generators etc. Anyone know why?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 23, 2019, 11:31:04 pm
We had a chat about some concerns, during which I was told that GWR did intend to introduce class 769 bi-modes to restore a full Reading- Oxford stopping service in the coming year. Furthermore I was told GWR still hoped to introduce a third service each hour on the North Downs line, preferably a semi-fast Gatwick and some to run from Oxford.

Well, I do hope they are correct as I would love to see a full Reading to Oxford stopping service restored this year, but I suspect that won't happen, indeed I doubt the full order of 769s will even be delivered this year!  If it does come about, I hope it doesn't come at the expense of losing any direct stopping services between stations east and west of Reading that the current Didcot to Paddington service covers.  If the status quo remains in that respect, and all of the Paddington to Didcot stoppers are extended to Oxford then you need 9 units just to cover the current 30-minute frequency with a 4-car train - sounds unlikely to me. 

If you were to just run them between Reading and Oxford then you could cover them with 5 4-car units which is more plausible, but more challenging operationally juggling platforms at Reading.  The best I personally think that can be hoped for is that the existing Reading to Oxford peak and shoulder peak through services become operated by 769s.  Should I find anything out for definite I will keep you updated.

Incidentally there seems a growing collection of ex-Thameslink 319s at Reading depot, but as far as I can see from the passing train they don't look to have any additional underfloor gubbins by way of diesel engines, generators etc. Anyone know why?

They are there for depot staff familiarisation with regard to learning how to maintain them as of course they share many of the components the 796s will arrive with.  I have heard that the option to press them and other spare 319s into service to cover for the 387s going to HEx conversion might well be taken up, though I have also heard that spare IETs not required until the big timetable change next January might also cover the impending 387 shortage.  I guess at least that means GWR have two possible solutions to that particular problem.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on January 24, 2019, 10:09:25 pm
Thanks for that. I guess we are used to aspirational dates not being met!

Speaking personally/selfishly (but I guess on behalf of most Tilehurst to Cholsey travellers), I think I/we would prefer going back to most services having only limited or no stops between Reading and Paddington to cut journey times to London without changing at Reading. From the Crossrail publicity it seems that when (eventually) Elizabeth Line starts there will only be 2 GWR "stopping" trains each hour off peak running east of Reading (see-http://74f85f59f39b887b696f-ab656259048fb93837ecc0ecbcf0c557.r23.cf3.rackcdn.com/assets/library/document/e/original/elizabeth_line_service_pattern-reading_to_central_london.pdfng), and these stopping only at Twyford, Maidenhead and Slough, so we could eventually achieve that.




Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on March 30, 2019, 01:32:05 pm
Quote
Any update on the departure of the 153s?

.....or any update on the arrival of the 769s?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: bobm on March 30, 2019, 03:01:07 pm
Two unconverted 319s have arrived at Reading Depot so driver training can start.

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/319rdg.jpg)

The first converted 769 is due in July


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: ray951 on March 30, 2019, 07:06:54 pm
Two unconverted 319s have arrived at Reading Depot so driver training can start.

The first converted 769 is due in July
I notice you didn't say which year. 😀😀

And does anybody know whether these are destined for Reading - Didcot - Oxford - Banbury services?

And if not, what has GWR got planned for that route given that most services have gone backwards, in terms of numbers of seats, since electrification  was cancelled/postponed and most 3 car 165/166 sent west?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: bobm on March 30, 2019, 07:18:47 pm
By April next year GWR hope to have 19 class 769s.  Clearly the North Downs service doesn't need that many so obviously some will be used elsewhere but I haven't seen any definitive plans.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: grahame on February 13, 2020, 11:59:47 am
Just posted ... rumour of delivery.   It's been so long this thread was dormant!

Quote
Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days.
Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic.

Rumour has it that the first 769 will be delivered in May (now September) but won't be in service until December at the earliest.

Also Network Rail are saying it will have to run on Diesel power, all the way from Oxford to Gatwick! Due to incompatible electricfication.

This is despite a good portion of the route having third rail or 25Kv electrification and the 769s as 319s having worked successfully as bimode electrics from Bedford to Brighton for many years.

Moderators i tried to find the 769 thread but it did't come up so please move.
 


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Fourbee on February 13, 2020, 01:42:48 pm
I remember when the turbos were delivered, the brand new smell, fresh NSE paint job, working aircon on the 166s (well, for a time at least)...compared to the heritage DMUs they replaced they were a step change.

Will I be able to say the same this time round?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Timmer on February 13, 2020, 05:48:13 pm
If this rumour is true than that’s an absolute joke that the 769s won’t be able to run on electricity which is the whole point of a trimode train!

That’s an embarrassment but then the railways are good at that.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Electric train on February 13, 2020, 07:29:06 pm

Rumour has it that the first 769 will be delivered in May (now September) but won't be in service until December at the earliest.

Also Network Rail are saying it will have to run on Diesel power, all the way from Oxford to Gatwick! Due to incompatible electricfication.

This is despite a good portion of the route having third rail or 25Kv electrification and the 769s as 319s having worked successfully as bimode electrics from Bedford to Brighton for many years.
 

The reason may be due to a number of things,  The 769 (ex319) Pan may not be passed to operate on GW, the traction package may have some EMC issues on GW and SR Wessex route.

The GW route may not have the clearance for the third rail shoe gear (the 387 shoe gear is retractable)

The testing of the incompatibilities is paid for by the TOC as would be the enabling the GW route for shoe gear


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eXPassenger on February 13, 2020, 10:57:22 pm
Surely GWR would have considered Electric Train's points before ordering a few trimode trains?  If they cannot use the AC or DC inputs on the 769 why use them over pure diesels?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 13, 2020, 11:05:22 pm
They should be fine on AC - though with limited opportunities to use it.  There is a massive scarcity of pure diesel trains (other than new orders, which isn’t really an option for any franchises under a short-term direct award), so it’s as much about capacity as anything else.

Though it will be a great shame if they can’t use DC, even if not immediately.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on February 14, 2020, 12:38:20 am
Quote
Though it will be a great shame if they can’t use DC, even if not immediately.

It is just one of many "great shames" about this whole episode. At least Vivarail have the excuse of being a small scale start up, whereas Wabtec are meant to be one of the world's leading suppliers of rolling stock. There seems to be a message here - don't think that recycling old trains will be a quick method of providing much-needed rolling stock. It seems no quicker than starting form scratch.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: grahame on February 14, 2020, 04:52:14 am
They should be fine on AC - though with limited opportunities to use it.  There is a massive scarcity of pure diesel trains (other than new orders, which isn’t really an option for any franchises under a short-term direct award), so it’s as much about capacity as anything else.

Though it will be a great shame if they can’t use DC, even if not immediately.

To be clear .... that's runnable pure diesel trains, isn't it?  We're seeing pictures of Pacers being cut up, and the first HST set has gone for scrap while others are stored at Ely and Long Marston.   Those are far from what's now regarded as ideal modern trains but where it "has had to" the government has used its dispensations to allow the old stuff to continue in service for a while.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: mjones on February 14, 2020, 07:29:59 am
If they can only run on diesel,  can they match 165/6 performance on the  North Downs line? Indeed, just on the fairly flat Didcot to Reading run they could struggle to fit in around electric services.  To see journey times worsen after such an expensive electrification programme is going be embarrassing.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 14, 2020, 10:51:09 am
If they can only run on diesel,  can they match 165/6 performance on the  North Downs line? Indeed, just on the fairly flat Didcot to Reading run they could struggle to fit in around electric services.  To see journey times worsen after such an expensive electrification programme is going be embarrassing.

On the North Downs, nearly but not quite I think.  They currently aren’t planned to be used between Didcot and Reading, though if they were that could be under AC.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Electric train on February 14, 2020, 06:28:15 pm
They should be fine on AC - though with limited opportunities to use it.  There is a massive scarcity of pure diesel trains (other than new orders, which isn’t really an option for any franchises under a short-term direct award), so it’s as much about capacity as anything else.

Though it will be a great shame if they can’t use DC, even if not immediately.

Depends on the traction pack and the levels of signal immunisation, just needs to acceptance to be carried out, but the TOC has to pay to have this done and the NoBo


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: stuving on February 14, 2020, 07:16:48 pm
They should be fine on AC - though with limited opportunities to use it.  There is a massive scarcity of pure diesel trains (other than new orders, which isn’t really an option for any franchises under a short-term direct award), so it’s as much about capacity as anything else.

Though it will be a great shame if they can’t use DC, even if not immediately.

Depends on the traction pack and the levels of signal immunisation, just needs to acceptance to be carried out, but the TOC has to pay to have this done and the NoBo

I presume that's a reference to proving on additional routes, after the "new" train has been approved (with all that paperwork) and tested somewhere at Porterbrook's cost. I found this in a Rail Engineer article (https://www.railengineer.uk/2018/09/27/bi-mode-good-tri-mode-better/) (which isn't responding now) - from a visit/interview mainly with Helen Simpson (engineering innovation and development manager of Porterbrook):
Quote
Approvals

Helen talked about the compliance and approval process. The modification is not considered an upgrade or renewal and does not require authorisation under the common safety method for risk evaluation and assessment, although this process has been voluntarily applied as a robust means of managing safety. SNC-Lavalin is providing integrated Notified Body, Designated Body and Assessment Body services.

Full details of this process would justify its own article, and Helen described some of the challenges applying the approval process mandated by the Technical Standards for Interoperability (TSI) regulations on a 30-year-old train. For example, TSI noise requirements do not apply, but pass-by noise will be compared to other DMUs operating the same services on the route; in the case of the Northern trains, this means comparing with the Class 15X units. Porterbrook needs to show it is no worse, but is actually aiming for it to be a demonstrable improvement. This, and other type approval testing, was expected to be carried out at the nearby Great Central Railway.

Of course they may have discovered Hofstadter's law applies to NR's approvals requirements.

The plan was to not change the traction at all, just feed it from an on-board generator-alternator-converter. Rather oddly, the shoe gear would be put somewhere new (and perhaps be new itself?). But something must have delayed the programme - by what, a year and a bit? - and that might include some rethinking of that plan, though I've not seen any mention of it.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: SandTEngineer on February 14, 2020, 09:50:45 pm
According to info posted elsewhere there are going to be 19 class 769s and a naming list has been drawn up based on mythical characters. ::)


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightf48544 on February 15, 2020, 10:02:38 am
According to info posted elsewhere there are going to be 19 class 769s and a naming list has been drawn up based on mythical characters. ::)

Very appropriate.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: grahame on February 15, 2020, 10:52:42 am
According to info posted elsewhere there are going to be 19 class 769s and a naming list has been drawn up based on mythical characters. ::)

Very appropriate.

Quite a few have been used before ... https://www.sparknotes.com/lit/mythology/characters/ may give some ideas.

I was wondering how serious the original suggestion was.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Electric train on February 16, 2020, 12:01:23 pm
They should be fine on AC - though with limited opportunities to use it.  There is a massive scarcity of pure diesel trains (other than new orders, which isn’t really an option for any franchises under a short-term direct award), so it’s as much about capacity as anything else.

Though it will be a great shame if they can’t use DC, even if not immediately.

Depends on the traction pack and the levels of signal immunisation, just needs to acceptance to be carried out, but the TOC has to pay to have this done and the NoBo

I presume that's a reference to proving on additional routes, after the "new" train has been approved (with all that paperwork) and tested somewhere at Porterbrook's cost. I found this in a Rail Engineer article (https://www.railengineer.uk/2018/09/27/bi-mode-good-tri-mode-better/) (which isn't responding now) - from a visit/interview mainly with Helen Simpson (engineering innovation and development manager of Porterbrook):
Quote
Approvals

Helen talked about the compliance and approval process. The modification is not considered an upgrade or renewal and does not require authorisation under the common safety method for risk evaluation and assessment, although this process has been voluntarily applied as a robust means of managing safety. SNC-Lavalin is providing integrated Notified Body, Designated Body and Assessment Body services.

Full details of this process would justify its own article, and Helen described some of the challenges applying the approval process mandated by the Technical Standards for Interoperability (TSI) regulations on a 30-year-old train. For example, TSI noise requirements do not apply, but pass-by noise will be compared to other DMUs operating the same services on the route; in the case of the Northern trains, this means comparing with the Class 15X units. Porterbrook needs to show it is no worse, but is actually aiming for it to be a demonstrable improvement. This, and other type approval testing, was expected to be carried out at the nearby Great Central Railway.

Of course they may have discovered Hofstadter's law applies to NR's approvals requirements.

The plan was to not change the traction at all, just feed it from an on-board generator-alternator-converter. Rather oddly, the shoe gear would be put somewhere new (and perhaps be new itself?). But something must have delayed the programme - by what, a year and a bit? - and that might include some rethinking of that plan, though I've not seen any mention of it.

The 319's did not necessary have universal route clearance, the were never cleared for instance to operate through Canal Tunnels (the new Thameslink between the ECML and St Pancras) Rolling stock does not always have route clearance under "grandfather rights" on new (to it) routes


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on April 26, 2020, 07:08:08 pm
Quote
Quote from: eightonedee on Today at 04:40:08 pm
Quote
A quick look at the North Downs Line timetable suggests to me that there are 10 daily diagrams or so on that line; not sure how many are pairs of units, though.

The short answer "none" I think. The 769s would (when they eventually arrive!) be useful for Reading-Oxford services as a  replacement for the Turbos used there. I think that there are currently some two unit services on this service - one I used to catch, albeit with one locked out of use to avoid people falling out at Appleford.

No plans to use 769s west of Reading.  Virtually all will be confined to North Downs duties, which will release the 16 Turbos for cascade west.

II's reply sums up the sorry saga that has unfolded as set out in this thread. OK, they will probably not arrive as last promised this month due to Covid 19. But when they do, we will have tri-mode trains that will not be able to run on electric for most of the electrified part of the North Downs route, and from what our learned friend Stuving has told us may have traction problems on a route that is relatively steeply graded in parts in adverse rail head conditions. However, the OHL equipment will remain largely (entirely?) unused, while diesels still ply the part electrified route between Reading and Oxford.

Is that really a satisfactory outcome?   


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on June 17, 2020, 07:16:56 pm
Quote
Meanwhile from the Sheffield Star

Quote
Fury over plans to axe 450 workers at Doncaster rail factory
Plans to axe up to 450 jobs at a Doncaster rail maintenance factory have been blasted by a union which claimed they had been ‘smuggled out under the cloak of the Covid-19 crisis’.

and

Quote
Odd that ... Wabtec have a queue of work and are laying off lots of staff ...

Appropriate prompts - what's the latest on the delivery of the 769s?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 17, 2020, 08:08:15 pm
GWR’s first is expected to arrive next month AIUI.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: grahame on June 17, 2020, 08:26:00 pm
Appropriate prompts - what's the latest on the delivery of the 769s?

GWR’s first is expected to arrive next month AIUI.

I wondered if I had missed "first revenue earning service" anywhere, but I don't think so:

Northern - Driver training started (or was planned to start) February 2020
Transport for Wales - entering service "some time in 2020".  Understand testing from mid March
Great Western - noting arrival date above (thank you II) - Wikipedia says "eventually"
Rail Operations Group - in service in 2020.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 17, 2020, 09:47:04 pm
I suspect it’ll be a fair while yet before any enter service on GWR.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: grahame on July 29, 2020, 05:05:22 pm
GWR’s first is expected to arrive next month AIUI.

Tomorrow - 30th July.
10:27 from Loughborough, onto GWR territory at Banbury at 14:14, Reading Traincare Depot 15:24.
(( https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K05794/2020-07-30/detailed ))

The training ... when will it carry passengers?



Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 30, 2020, 10:55:54 am
Delivery cancelled until the second week of August according to a poster on Railforums

The training ... when will it carry passengers?

It'll no doubt be a while as there is still a ban (emergencies excepted) on more than one person in a cab at a time, although a trial solution to that issue is in the pipeline.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: TonyN on August 08, 2020, 01:04:01 pm
A 769 unit was moved South through Banbury yesterday by 50007 and 50049.

This is reported to be 769943 on its way to Reading as 5Z69 but I have not found it on Realtime trains.

Picture here on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3356919184365881&set=gm.3159948040762940&type=3&theater&ifg=1 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3356919184365881&set=gm.3159948040762940&type=3&theater&ifg=1)


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: grahame on August 08, 2020, 01:14:43 pm

This is reported to be 769943 on its way to Reading as 5Z69 but I have not found it on Realtime trains.


https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/44324/2020-08-07/detailed


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: ellendune on August 08, 2020, 01:44:19 pm
A 769 unit was moved South through Banbury yesterday by 50007 and 50049.

This is reported to be 769943 on its way to Reading as 5Z69 but I have not found it on Realtime trains.

Picture here on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3356919184365881&set=gm.3159948040762940&type=3&theater&ifg=1 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3356919184365881&set=gm.3159948040762940&type=3&theater&ifg=1)

Double headed! - was it that heavy?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: bradshaw on August 08, 2020, 02:09:32 pm
Video on Twitter

https://twitter.com/thesatnav89/status/1291791735979421701?s=21


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on August 08, 2020, 06:48:39 pm
Oh - will we get nicely refurbished class 50s to help them up and down all those pesky gradients on the North Downs line? - perhaps something to look forward to after all! It'll take me back to my days commuting from Tilehurst in the 1980s.......


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 08, 2020, 06:51:04 pm
Lovely engines...when not breaking down!


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: grahame on August 08, 2020, 07:09:35 pm
Double headed! - was it that heavy?

There's quite a recent history of running a train with 2 locomotives, perhaps where it's not needed.   Started in - what - the mid 1970s when the Westerns and Warships (occasionally used in 2-s) were replaced by single-ended locos on either end of a rake or 6 to 8 carriages.   It come down to removing the need to run round and, as these things get older and spare locos to help in the event of a failure become rare as hen's teeth.   The only problem with an 8 car rake running with one loco duff is "Does not stop at Totnes".

Nuclear flask trains have 2 locos, andI've noticed that steam specials seem to have a spare diesel loco on the back too ... much of it perhaps again relating to reliability, lack of thunderbirds, and all the extra money that Network Rail will charge you if you block the line until you manage to find someone to get you out of the way.   2nd loco every time probably cheaper than risking failure - insurance if you like.

Wish they would add a second loco on heavy freight up the Berks and Hants.   Those trains seem sit down all too often for a very long and leasurly break, flooding the TransWilts with trains that don't even stop ...

Sorry eightonedee - don't expect you'll see 2 times class 50 on the North Downs trains.   Would one be OK?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on August 08, 2020, 08:43:16 pm
Grahame
I almost thought, yes I would, but then thought of the line between Reigate and Shalford junction or between Ash and Wokingham being blocked by a failed loco.....


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightf48544 on August 09, 2020, 03:21:12 pm

Nuclear flask trains have 2 locos, andI've noticed that steam specials seem to have a spare diesel loco on the back too ... much of it perhaps again relating to reliability, lack of thunderbirds, and all the extra money that Network Rail will charge you if you block the line until you manage to find someone to get you out of the way.   2nd loco every time probably cheaper than risking failure - insurance if you like.

Re steam specials I thought the diesel was there to supply compressed air for the train brakes when the loco doesn't have a Westinghouse pump as well as backup. It will also be there to take the stock away if the journey finishes at a terminal station.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: paul7755 on August 10, 2020, 01:23:54 pm

Nuclear flask trains have 2 locos, andI've noticed that steam specials seem to have a spare diesel loco on the back too ... much of it perhaps again relating to reliability, lack of thunderbirds, and all the extra money that Network Rail will charge you if you block the line until you manage to find someone to get you out of the way.   2nd loco every time probably cheaper than risking failure - insurance if you like.

Re steam specials I thought the diesel was there to supply compressed air for the train brakes when the loco doesn't have a Westinghouse pump as well as backup. It will also be there to take the stock away if the journey finishes at a terminal station.
Isn’t it also usually providing the hotel services power for the coaching stock, especially as they move towards air conditioned stock etc?

Paul


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Electric train on August 11, 2020, 08:36:26 am
Often the reason for 2 loco's the second is there if the is a failure of the primary for some of the FoC they may only have one or two operating bases the delay costs incurred waiting for one of their locos to reach the failed train would be excessive as would paying another ToC to rescue the failed train.

Other reasons for topping and tailing can be operational there just are not the run round facilities now


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: stuving on August 11, 2020, 09:42:20 am
A 769 unit was moved South through Banbury yesterday by 50007 and 50049.

This is reported to be 769943 on its way to Reading as 5Z69 but I have not found it on Realtime trains.

Picture here on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3356919184365881&set=gm.3159948040762940&type=3&theater&ifg=1 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3356919184365881&set=gm.3159948040762940&type=3&theater&ifg=1)

Double headed! - was it that heavy?

Well, maybe - if you want it to stop and it's not helping. I vaguely recall international train delivery consists having not just translator vehicles but a load of makeweight wagons too, specifically to provide brake force. So, is it custormary - or even compulsory - for new stock to be hauled with all brakes disabled? I can't find an explicit reference to that; NR and railway rules just say the operator (which is an FOC) will provide instructions.

I can understand it being needed when hauling old stock for scrap - you'd not want to certify its brakes as functional. But why that would apply to a brand new, just commissioned, ready-to-drive train is not clear. Still less for such an old new train.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Electric train on August 11, 2020, 09:24:02 pm
A 769 unit was moved South through Banbury yesterday by 50007 and 50049.

This is reported to be 769943 on its way to Reading as 5Z69 but I have not found it on Realtime trains.

Picture here on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3356919184365881&set=gm.3159948040762940&type=3&theater&ifg=1 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3356919184365881&set=gm.3159948040762940&type=3&theater&ifg=1)

Double headed! - was it that heavy?

Well, maybe - if you want it to stop and it's not helping. I vaguely recall international train delivery consists having not just translator vehicles but a load of makeweight wagons too, specifically to provide brake force. So, is it custormary - or even compulsory - for new stock to be hauled with all brakes disabled? I can't find an explicit reference to that; NR and railway rules just say the operator (which is an FOC) will provide instructions.

I can understand it being needed when hauling old stock for scrap - you'd not want to certify its brakes as functional. But why that would apply to a brand new, just commissioned, ready-to-drive train is not clear. Still less for such an old new train.

The rolling stock needs to have a valid brake test, which can be done by some repair facilities but not all, the brake test would only allow the move to the depot.  Another method is to have the stock being move through piped only this allows the translator vehicles, which have a valid brake test, to provide the brake force.

 


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: TonyN on August 11, 2020, 09:33:49 pm
Rail Operations group who where the TOC for the 769 move have some class 37 locomotives fitted with couplings to enable them to haul more modern units such as Electrostars. However these are not compatible with BR era units such as the 319/769.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on August 21, 2020, 08:38:16 am
GWR have released the following to show what the 769's will look like inside....

https://twitter.com/GWRHelp/status/1296421240543027200?s=09 (https://twitter.com/GWRHelp/status/1296421240543027200?s=09)

Does a good job of not mentioning it's a refurb of actually quite an old train.

Lots of debate over on RailUK Forum about where they will actually be able to operate on anything but diesel (remembering that primarily these are for the North Downs, Reading - Basingstoke and a few of the Thames Valley branches - I think?)


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: onthecushions on August 21, 2020, 10:38:36 am

I think that the good news implicit in this announcement is that GWR actually envisage that these units will finally enter service and operate as tri-mode.

While they are old in years, they are  modern in design, the Mark 3 being arguably a more balanced, economical concept than some of the post-privatisation offerings.

OTC


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 21, 2020, 10:52:33 am
I think that the good news implicit in this announcement is that GWR actually envisage that these units will finally enter service and operate as tri-mode.

We will see.  At least they can operate on OHLE between Reading and the depot.   ;)

There is an element of future proofing, so that even if initially they are confined to diesel, the option remains in the future to use the other two modes of power.  More important (at least before the pandemic) to the users of the North Downs Line, where the vast majority of workings will be confined to, is that an 80-metre long train is replacing a 46m or 69m long train, so there's a capacity boost.

My main concern remains the reliability of the engines and their ability to haul a 4-car train over the gradients of the North Downs Line without impacting on performance too much.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightf48544 on August 21, 2020, 11:33:28 am

My main concern remains the reliability of the engines and their ability to haul a 4-car train over the gradients of the North Downs Line without impacting on performance too much.

I would have thought 3rd rail operation would be essential between Guildford and Ash.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on August 21, 2020, 01:43:24 pm
May be I ask for too much, but I noted 5 across seating, and that the top corners of the coaches had that kind of welded up/plated look that much HST stock and old 455s do - is that corrosion repair?

I may be back commuting for at least a day or two a week next month, but assume it will be a while before I can "road test" one from a passenger point of view.

It is a bit of a worry when some of the informed posters are concerned if the diesel engines will cope if they are introduced into service the leaf fall season.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 21, 2020, 02:03:31 pm
I doubt you'll see any in passenger service until the December timetable change, though hopefully they'll be able to get some serious testing in during leaf fall to check they cope OK.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Surrey 455 on August 21, 2020, 07:35:11 pm
3+2 seating? That's disappointing. I would have hoped that the configuration could have been changed to 2+2 in a similar way to what SWT did to their 455's, also introducing a width gap of about an inch or two between the seats for more comfort.

I can't remember much about the Thameslink 319 seats but I have a vague memory of them being lower than on other trains and not as comfortable.

Incidentally do any new trains come in a 3+2 layout any more? That's new as in brand new. Not refurbished or rebuilt.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 22, 2020, 12:38:48 am
I don’t think so.  In terms of old trains though it’s often difficult to just replace a 3+2 seating with 2+2 as there are often under seat equipment that can’t easily be (re)moved.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Electric train on August 22, 2020, 07:48:26 am
I don’t think so.  In terms of old trains though it’s often difficult to just replace a 3+2 seating with 2+2 as there are often under seat equipment that can’t easily be (re)moved.

Also if they were reduced to 2 + 2 seating a 4 car train would then only have the same seating capacity as a 3 car with 3 + 2 Assuming the 769's are 4 car  ::)


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on August 22, 2020, 07:54:49 am
Really Ii?

I will try to look under the seats if and when I get to use one. If they are anything like Turbos, the seat fixings heating paraphernalia etc seems all to be under the outer two seats.

Certainly there doesn't seem to have been much problem doing the quite radical shifting of seats in two car Turbos to replace the old first class seats and install the long cycle and luggage racks.

And if I recall correctly from the nicely refurbished 150 I rode on to St Ives two years ago that had been converted to 4 across with no problem.

Dare I suggest if this is right the wrong redundant stock has been used as the basis of this conversion?


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: eightonedee on August 22, 2020, 08:15:04 am
And in response to Electric Train, checking the seating diagrams GWR publish for 2 car 165s and 3 car 166s the three across seating actually only adds 14 and 19 extra seats respectively.  The additional coach should therefore still add considerable extra capacity if they were 4 across throughout. The discomfort of narrow packed seating doesn't seem justified in any stock these days- the Electrostars are all the better for being 4 across and they are in use on high density commuter services

A substantial part of the business ( or potential business) on the North Downs line is middle distance/ cross country travelers, including luggage laden  weary holiday makers returning from Gatwick looking to avoid the hassle of crossing London.  Surely something a little more suitable for them is in order too.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 22, 2020, 09:47:32 am
Really Ii?

I’m sure it could be done, but only at an extra cost that probably couldn’t be justified, and you might find that the project was authorised based on it providing a set percentage of seating uplift on the existing Turbo fleet - as well as providing the extra stock needed for the long proposed 3tph service.

Without seeing the specific numbers, I doubt a 4-car 80m train with 2+2 would have more seats than a 3-car 69m train with some 3+2.

I agree that 2+2 is a much more modern and sensible layout, but as with cascaded Turbos sometimes that isn’t the way it works out.  At least the North Downs route has had the same internal layouts for many years, so it’s just a like-for-like replacement.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Electric train on August 22, 2020, 10:03:44 am
Really Ii?

I’m sure it could be done, but only at an extra cost that probably couldn’t be justified, and you might find that the project was authorised based on it providing a set percentage of seating uplift on the existing Turbo fleet - as well as providing the extra stock needed for the long proposed 3tph service.

Without seeing the specific numbers, I doubt a 4-car 80m train with 2+2 would have more seats than a 3-car 69m train with some 3+2.

I agree that 2+2 is a much more modern and sensible layout, but as with cascaded Turbos sometimes that isn’t the way it works out.  At least the North Downs route has had the same internal layouts for many years, so it’s just a like-for-like replacement.

It could have been worse ................... could have gone for the 345 seating plan  ;D


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 23, 2020, 10:57:39 am
My main concern remains the reliability of the engines and their ability to haul a 4-car train over the gradients of the North Downs Line without impacting on performance too much.

I would have thought 3rd rail operation would be essential between Guildford and Ash.

Just reading over on RailForums and Clarence Yard (a very reliable source of information) says that one of the three DC sections is looking OK to power the 769s, with the potential to use all three still being investigated.


Title: Re: Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.
Post by: Fourbee on September 16, 2020, 02:28:45 pm
It'll be essentially 2+2, because people will put their suitcase on the third seat :)

To me 165s seem to have more room than 166s when everyone is doing that with their bags anyway and the luggage rack remains unused.



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