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Journey by Journey => Plymouth and Cornwall => Topic started by: DaveHarries on April 21, 2018, 01:32:27 am



Title: Class 802s
Post by: DaveHarries on April 21, 2018, 01:32:27 am
Morning all,

For anyone wondering I understand, from another forum, that the first two diagrams to be operated by the Hitachi-built Class 802s have been penciled in to be as follows:

1A72 0553 Plymouth - London Paddington
1D20 0950 London Paddington - Oxford
1P26 1201 Oxford - London Paddington
1C89 1633 London Paddington - Exeter St. Davids
1A98 1955 Exeter St. Davids - London Paddington

1C04 0730 London Paddington - Penzance, via. Bristol Temple Meads
1A98 1400 Penzance - London Paddington
1C96 2003 London Paddington - Plymouth

Both diagrams understood to be planned for 2x 5-carriage trains and to start Monday 16th July.

I have been giving these trains some thought in regards summer operation on the Par to Newquay route and I wonder whether the through Newquay - London Paddington trains in summer will continue once the current Class 43 HSTs have gone. What I could see happening would be either:

1. The trains to call at Par where they would detach from each other with one set continuing to Newquay as a 5 carriage train. The set which runs the Newquay part then rejoins to the set it earlier detached from for the rest of the trip to London Paddington

2. Same as 1 but the second set continues to Truro and terminates there. For the return journey both trains join up again at Par for the trip back to London Paddington

3. No Class 802s up the Newquay line at all but additional local stoppers running instead between Par and Newquay

Saying that I was on a 10-car Class 800 from Bristol Parkway to Cardiff Central on Friday 20th April and the set quite easily managed a hill start on the incline immediately before Cardiff Central so I wonder if the gradient from Tywardreath Highway LC to Luxulyan would be a problem for a 5-car Class 802: it might not be.

HTIOI,
Dave


Title: Re: Class 802s
Post by: bignosemac on April 21, 2018, 07:42:57 am
Already mentioned here:

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=18792.msg235407#msg235407

I'll leave the mods to mull over merging with the existing IET thread, or deciding to have a seperate Class 802 topic...


Title: Re: Class 802s
Post by: grahame on April 21, 2018, 07:52:55 am
Already mentioned here:

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=18792.msg235407#msg235407

I'll leave the mods to mull over merging with the existing IET thread, or deciding to have a seperate Class 802 topic...

Ah - the nightmare of having such a busy forum that topics such as that those previous 802 diagrams got swamped with follow ups.    I am inclined for the moment to leave this thread here alone and let discussion develop - decide on merges, etc, later on for clarify as it heads from being a current conversation towards an archived resource. I'm minded that at than point a separate 802 thread may make the data easier to find.


Title: Re: Class 802s
Post by: stuving on April 21, 2018, 10:41:16 am
...
Saying that I was on a 10-car Class 800 from Bristol Parkway to Cardiff Central on Friday 20th April and the set quite easily managed a hill start on the incline immediately before Cardiff Central so I wonder if the gradient from Tywardreath Highway LC to Luxulyan would be a problem for a 5-car Class 802: it might not be.

If you ever find any 80x stuck on a hill, with its wheels not slipping (or trying to), you are entitled to be very rude about Hitachi.

The IEP requirement says they should be able to "start and climb any gradient encountered on the IEP Network" and (for avoidance of doubt) 1 in 37. And that applies to a nine-car with only one engine, though obviously that will never reach much of a speed.

The metaclass's figure of merit (fraction of weight on motored axles) is 0.59, versus 0.33 for an HST and 0.5 for all relevant DMUs. And it increases with passenger load, while for an HST in decreases.

The other thing needed is enough motor torque; that's a a matter of motor/drive design that Hitachi just have to get right. But the traction force needed to hold still on 1 in 37 would accelerate the train at 0.27 m/s2 on the level - and I'm sure they do that; it's well below the specified maximum of 0.75 m/s2 at zero speed.


Title: Re: Class 802s
Post by: Andy on April 21, 2018, 11:30:54 am
Morning all,



I have been giving these trains some thought in regards summer operation on the Par to Newquay route and I wonder whether the through Newquay - London Paddington trains in summer will continue once the current Class 43 HSTs have gone. What I could see happening would be either:

1. The trains to call at Par where they would detach from each other with one set continuing to Newquay as a 5 carriage train. The set which runs the Newquay part then rejoins to the set it earlier detached from for the rest of the trip to London Paddington

2. Same as 1 but the second set continues to Truro and terminates there. For the return journey both trains join up again at Par for the trip back to London Paddington

3. No Class 802s up the Newquay line at all but additional local stoppers running instead between Par and Newquay

Saying that I was on a 10-car Class 800 from Bristol Parkway to Cardiff Central on Friday 20th April and the set quite easily managed a hill start on the incline immediately before Cardiff Central so I wonder if the gradient from Tywardreath Highway LC to Luxulyan would be a problem for a 5-car Class 802: it might not be.

HTIOI,
Dave

I wonder if it might be worth trying out a split at Par, with a Newquay portion as you mention, and the second portion continuing to Falmouth rather than stopping at Truro. The set-up at Penryn (dynamic loop/platform length) might make this impracticable, though. 


Title: Re: Class 802s
Post by: ChrisB on April 21, 2018, 05:35:59 pm
Is there really enough traffic on the Falmouth branch for a 5car 802? hmmmm


Title: Re: Class 802s
Post by: grahame on April 21, 2018, 06:07:15 pm
Is there really enough traffic on the Falmouth branch for a 5car 802? hmmmm

Is there really enough traffic west of St Erth for a 5 car 802?

In all seriousness, I don't know the answer ChrisB.   However, I wonder whether there would be sufficient interest / extra traffic generated by through London trains from Cornish branches a couple of times each day - say late morning from each appropriate branch to London, and late morning / early afternoon from London to each appropriate branch.

Immediate issue one "what about stock efficiency / how would we get that in place".  Perhaps divert something that would head to Penzance to [Falmouth/other] with a connection into a branch unit at [Truro/other] for Penzance - is there some sort of model in the way the unit for the Newquay branch is provided post-peak?

Immediate issue two "would it be robust if the main line service was not running to time".

Potentially attractive if it were to bring more people to rail - on longer journeys too - off peak.



Title: Re: Class 802s
Post by: DaveHarries on April 21, 2018, 06:19:21 pm
I guess that perhaps one of the branches could perhaps be experimented with for a through service to / from Plymouth at peak times: could be tried once per day to start with. Falmouth to Plymouth anyone? Or am I standing at the wrong platform (as opposed to barking up the wrong tree)? One thought here is that a 10-car unit could split at Truro with 5 carriages to Falmouth and 5 to Penzance with the Falmouth set (for example) joining a 5-car set at Truro on its return trip.

Dave


Title: Re: Class 802s
Post by: stuving on April 21, 2018, 06:20:49 pm
The metaclass's figure of merit (fraction of weight on motored axles) is 0.59, versus 0.33 for an HST and 0.5 for all relevant DMUs. And it increases with passenger load, while for an HST in decreases.

I should, for completeness, have given the numerical implications of FMWA. Given some simplifying assumptions of the usual kind, it tells you what wheel/rail friction coefficient is required to climb a given gradient (other than by momentum alone).

Here are the numbers for 1 in 37:

trainFMWA*coeff
5-car 80x0.590.046
9-car 80x0.560.048
e.g. 1660.50.054
4+2 HST0.490.055
8+2 HST0.330.082
4+2 HST/one power car dead   0.2450.110
8+2 HST/one power car dead   0.165    0.164
(*Some values rely more on guesswork than others.)

There's quite a difference between the top and bottom of that ranking order. Getting high levels of steel/steel friction isn't impossible, even as high as 0.2, provided you keep the track and wheels clean and dry (indoors is best). But it can't be relied on, so towards the bottom of the table the probability of "poor rail conditions" that stop your train is unacceptably high. Hence the rules about half-dead HSTs and steep banks.


Title: Re: Class 802s
Post by: old original on April 21, 2018, 07:55:30 pm
I think the main problem with sending one down the Falmouth branch is platform length.


Title: Re: Class 802s
Post by: RailCornwall on April 22, 2018, 08:17:17 pm
I understand that a three car unit is the largest combo that can run on Falmouth in public service, providing it DOESN'T stop at Falmouth Town. FMT is only able to handle two cars.


Title: Re: Class 802s
Post by: grahame on April 22, 2018, 09:11:18 pm
I understand that a three car unit is the largest combo that can run on Falmouth in public service, providing it DOESN'T stop at Falmouth Town. FMT is only able to handle two cars.

Fixable with selective door opening and some signage?  More of a concern would be increased station dwells if it were to fit in (or fail to fit) with the half hourly clockface. Delays could cause chaos for hours ....


Title: Re: Class 802s
Post by: RailCornwall on April 22, 2018, 09:50:19 pm
Dwell time would inevitably increase due to pax shuffling along the locked carriages to those which are unlocked, even if carriages 2, 3 and 4 platformed at all Stations other than FMT. FMT would be horrendous with some pax inevitably moving through 2 carriages, if 2 and 3, or 3 and 4 were the chosen platformed vehicles. As much as I'd like to see 802's on Cornish Branches, other than NQY non stop the hurdles are far too great.


Title: Re: Class 802s
Post by: eightf48544 on April 23, 2018, 08:43:36 am
rumour has it that the prototyp 802 is marroned on teh franco/Germn border.

The French are saying "Non" to it being hauled to Calais. no safety case.


Title: Re: Class 802s
Post by: stuving on April 23, 2018, 09:26:00 am
rumour has it that the prototyp 802 is marroned on teh franco/Germn border.

The French are saying "Non" to it being hauled to Calais. no safety case.

According to rail magazine last week:
Quote
Two more five-car ‘802/0s’ (802003/004) are on their way from Pistoia (Italy), where Hitachi Rail Europe is building the fleet. However, they are currently unable to travel through France due to strike action by SNCF.

That sounds very likely, as the sneaky strikes with three days at work at a time have severely impacted all SNCF freight workings.

Those are the second pair needed for the service launch, the first (from Kasado) already being here. And as 802s are minor variants on the 800s already in service, they hardly prototypes. They are first out of the newly-acquired Italian factory, which is in some respects more worrying - you can foresee a whole new set of teething problems.


Title: Re: Class 802s
Post by: RichardB on April 23, 2018, 10:28:35 am
I understand that a three car unit is the largest combo that can run on Falmouth in public service, providing it DOESN'T stop at Falmouth Town. FMT is only able to handle two cars.

Fixable with selective door opening and some signage?  More of a concern would be increased station dwells if it were to fit in (or fail to fit) with the half hourly clockface. Delays could cause chaos for hours ....

Fitting it in the half hourly service would be be the biggest issue, particularly with the knock-on effect of delays.   


Title: Re: Class 802s
Post by: richwarwicker on April 23, 2018, 10:45:56 am
rumour has it that the prototyp 802 is marroned on teh franco/Germn border.

The French are saying "Non" to it being hauled to Calais. no safety case.

802001/802002 ran on Thursday in test to Penzance so must be in uk.


Title: Re: Class 802s
Post by: devonexpress on April 23, 2018, 03:34:28 pm
rumour has it that the prototyp 802 is marroned on teh franco/Germn border.

The French are saying "Non" to it being hauled to Calais. no safety case.

802001/802002 ran on Thursday in test to Penzance so must be in uk.


They where shipped in via Southampton.   802004 & 802005 are stuck in Europe as the French,are well being a pain in the bum.


Title: Re: Class 802s
Post by: devonexpress on April 23, 2018, 03:37:56 pm

For anyone wondering I understand, from another forum, that the first two diagrams to be operated by the Hitachi-built Class 802s have been penciled in to be as follows:

1A72 0553 Plymouth - London Paddington
1D20 0950 London Paddington - Oxford
1P26 1201 Oxford - London Paddington
1C89 1633 London Paddington - Exeter St. Davids
1A98 1955 Exeter St. Davids - London Paddington

1C04 0730 London Paddington - Penzance, via. Bristol Temple Meads
1A98 1400 Penzance - London Paddington
1C96 2003 London Paddington - Plymouth


In some ways I see this as a benefit as they are not on the busiest services, so if thing's go wrong like on the 800's then nobody will notice.  But on the other hand, given that it will be during the summer break, why not put them on the Cornish Riviera & Royal Dutchy, the busiest services to the Devon/Cornwall? Given that these trains are meant to be adding capacity benefits, I would of thought GWR would want to utilize that asap, rather than putting on services where they won't earn their money.


Title: Re: Class 802s
Post by: old original on April 23, 2018, 06:14:38 pm
rumour has it that the prototyp 802 is marroned on teh franco/Germn border.

The French are saying "Non" to it being hauled to Calais. no safety case.

802001/802002 ran on Thursday in test to Penzance so must be in uk.


Apparently it should have ran on three days last week but only did so one . Worryingly the two days it didn't run were days when Dawlish was closed to CrossCountry Voyagers.........  Conspiracy theories abound.....


Title: Re: Class 802s
Post by: devonexpress on April 23, 2018, 09:44:39 pm
rumour has it that the prototyp 802 is marroned on teh franco/Germn border.

The French are saying "Non" to it being hauled to Calais. no safety case.

802001/802002 ran on Thursday in test to Penzance so must be in uk.


Apparently it should have ran on three days last week but only did so one . Worryingly the two days it didn't run were days when Dawlish was closed to CrossCountry Voyagers.........  Conspiracy theories abound.....

802s have been tested and approved to work during bad conditions at Dawlish, they have an automatic reset on the resistor braking unit, something the voyagers don't have.


Title: Re: Class 802s
Post by: Andy on April 25, 2018, 08:00:55 pm
Is there really enough traffic on the Falmouth branch for a 5car 802? hmmmm

Is there really enough traffic west of St Erth for a 5 car 802?

In all seriousness, I don't know the answer ChrisB.   However, I wonder whether there would be sufficient interest / extra traffic generated by through London trains from Cornish branches a couple of times each day - say late morning from each appropriate branch to London, and late morning / early afternoon from London to each appropriate branch.

Immediate issue one "what about stock efficiency / how would we get that in place".  Perhaps divert something that would head to Penzance to [Falmouth/other] with a connection into a branch unit at [Truro/other] for Penzance - is there some sort of model in the way the unit for the Newquay branch is provided post-peak?

Immediate issue two "would it be robust if the main line service was not running to time".

Potentially attractive if it were to bring more people to rail - on longer journeys too - off peak.


As with through services to Newquay, through services to Falmouth is really 'only' a summer timetable question and then maybe only at weekends. I wonder if overcrowding levels during summer months/festival times suggest either (a) there may be a case for longer trains/platforms or (b) there may be a market for a summer weekend through service.

The Falmouth line has been a real success story and, as was the case with St Ives (platform "re-"lengthened at St Ives following the opening of the Park & Ride at Lelant Saltings), it may be that rationalisation back in the day went a bit too far.


Title: Re: Class 802s
Post by: Umberleigh on April 26, 2018, 07:12:51 pm
rumour has it that the prototyp 802 is marroned on teh franco/Germn border.

The French are saying "Non" to it being hauled to Calais. no safety case.

802001/802002 ran on Thursday in test to Penzance so must be in uk.


Apparently it should have ran on three days last week but only did so one . Worryingly the two days it didn't run were days when Dawlish was closed to CrossCountry Voyagers.........  Conspiracy theories abound.....

802s have been tested and approved to work during bad conditions at Dawlish, they have an automatic reset on the resistor braking unit, something the voyagers don't have.

In theory.

Paddington to Bristol is seemingly a bit of a challenge for IETs right now, well according to Mark Hopwood that is


Title: Re: Class 802s
Post by: devonexpress on April 26, 2018, 08:59:11 pm
Quote
In theory.

Paddington to Bristol is seemingly a bit of a challenge for IETs right now, well according to Mark Hopwood that is

Probably because they aren't on full power output like the 802s will be.


Title: Re: Class 802s
Post by: martyjon on April 27, 2018, 07:51:37 pm
rumour has it that the prototyp 802 is marroned on teh franco/Germn border.
The French are saying "Non" to it being hauled to Calais. no safety case.
802001/802002 ran on Thursday in test to Penzance so must be in uk.
Apparently it should have ran on three days last week but only did so one . Worryingly the two days it didn't run were days when Dawlish was closed to CrossCountry Voyagers.........  Conspiracy theories abound.....
802s have been tested and approved to work during bad conditions at Dawlish, they have an automatic reset on the resistor braking unit, something the voyagers don't have.
In theory.
Paddington to Bristol is seemingly a bit of a challenge for IETs right now, well according to Mark Hopwood that is

Bristol TM to Parkway is also a struggle too 1L01 regularly loses time after Narroways Junction, those that are unfamiliar with the area is up Filton Bank.


Title: Re: Class 802s
Post by: PhilWakely on April 30, 2018, 03:40:13 am
Apparently it should have ran on three days last week but only did so one . Worryingly the two days it didn't run were days when Dawlish was closed to CrossCountry Voyagers.........  Conspiracy theories abound.....

802s have been tested and approved to work during bad conditions at Dawlish, they have an automatic reset on the resistor braking unit, something the voyagers don't have.

It would be interesting to find out exactly how 'Dawlish conditions' were simulated. I doubt if hundreds of tons of sea water containing pebbles, sand and other detritus has been thrown at a unit under high wind conditions. I can understand why the conspiracy theories abound. It would be good PR from GWR/Hitachi to deliberately run an 802 through Dawlish under such conditions.


Title: Re: Class 802s
Post by: martyjon on April 30, 2018, 06:39:35 am
Quote
Apparently it should have ran on three days last week but only did so one . Worryingly the two days it didn't run were days when Dawlish was closed to CrossCountry Voyagers.........  Conspiracy theories abound.....
Quote
802s have been tested and approved to work during bad conditions at Dawlish, they have an automatic reset on the resistor braking unit, something the voyagers don't have.
Quote
It would be interesting to find out exactly how 'Dawlish conditions' were simulated. I doubt if hundreds of tons of sea water containing pebbles, sand and other detritus has been thrown at a unit under high wind conditions. I can understand why the conspiracy theories abound. It would be good PR from GWR/Hitachi to deliberately run an 802 through Dawlish under such conditions.

Oos gonna pay for the standby assisting diesel locomotives stationed at Exeter and / or Newton Abbot ' just in case '.


Title: Re: Class 802s
Post by: grahame on April 30, 2018, 06:44:14 am
Oos gonna pay for the standby assisting diesel locomotives stationed at Exeter and / or Newton Abbot ' just in case '.

Better to test it out and make sure all's OK on a single early unit than risk having the service fall apart as IETs start making routine journeys in passenger service along the seawall on 16th July.   BUT the test plan may be there, and we passengers on this forum simply be uninformed and needlessly worried.


Title: Re: Class 802s
Post by: martyjon on April 30, 2018, 06:52:39 am
BUT the test plan may be there ....

Yes, emergency waterproof roof covers to be deployed and roped down at Exeter and Newton Abbot as instructed. ::)


Title: Re: Class 802s
Post by: DaveHarries on May 01, 2018, 11:49:55 pm
[.....] as IETs start making routine journeys in passenger service along the seawall on 16th July.
I am not now sure it will be 16th July. Although that is the date which has been touted I was looking on RealTimeTrains this evening and there is no 5C04 (the ECS working from North Pole depot) for 1C04 (0730 PAD-PNZ via. BRI) to be a Class 802 before Monday 30th July so it looks like there may be a delay of about 2 weeks. Unless they start it 16th July as previously touted and work the 0730 PAD-PNZ off another train in the meantime.

Dave


Title: Re: Class 802s
Post by: bignosemac on May 04, 2018, 01:29:24 am
The first pair of Class 802/0 sets assembled in Italy are on the move again through continental Europe after being delayed by striking SNCF staff.

For those with an understanding of French:
https://lapassiondutrain.blogspot.co.uk/2018/05/hazebrouck-ce-jeudi-vsoe-rame-hitachi-1.html?m=1

They'll shortly join three 802/0s, built in Japan, that are already on test with GWR.

Whether everything is on schedule for an introduction of the 4 sets into passenger service on 16th July 2018 remains to be seen...


Title: Re: Class 802s
Post by: devonexpress on May 04, 2018, 01:10:48 pm
Apparently it should have ran on three days last week but only did so one . Worryingly the two days it didn't run were days when Dawlish was closed to CrossCountry Voyagers.........  Conspiracy theories abound.....

802s have been tested and approved to work during bad conditions at Dawlish, they have an automatic reset on the resistor braking unit, something the voyagers don't have.

It would be interesting to find out exactly how 'Dawlish conditions' were simulated. I doubt if hundreds of tons of sea water containing pebbles, sand and other detritus has been thrown at a unit under high wind conditions. I can understand why the conspiracy theories abound. It would be good PR from GWR/Hitachi to deliberately run an 802 through Dawlish under such conditions.

Its not a "conspiracy theory" I've just been trying to find the video of the 802 going through Dawlish during high tides. The Voyagers have a problem with the resistor packs, when sea water gets on top it shorts them out and immediately applies the brakes.  The 802s have an automatic reset for this situation which should stop it happening. https://www.thebreeze.com/southdevon/news/local-news/dawlish-proofed-trains-being-trialled-at-nights/


Title: Re: Class 802s
Post by: ellendune on May 04, 2018, 01:24:42 pm
Its not a "conspiracy theory" I've just been trying to find the video of the 802 going through Dawlish during high tides. The Voyagers have a problem with the resistor packs, when sea water gets on top it shorts them out and immediately applies the brakes.  The 802s have an automatic reset for this situation which should stop it happening. https://www.thebreeze.com/southdevon/news/local-news/dawlish-proofed-trains-being-trialled-at-nights/

Good to see high quality journalism there - they appear to either think that the HST are the ones with the problem or that the voyagers are 40 years old!


Title: Re: Class 802s
Post by: martyjon on May 04, 2018, 01:25:35 pm
From ;-

https://www.thebreeze.com/southdevon/news/local-news/dawlish-proofed-trains-being-trialled-at-nights/

Quote
The current ones, which are 40 years old, break down after the waves crash over them and flood the electrics.

Really !!!!


Title: Re: Class 802s
Post by: stuving on May 04, 2018, 10:31:21 pm
The first pair of Class 802/0 sets assembled in Italy are on the move again through continental Europe after being delayed by striking SNCF staff.

What is a bit ironic about that is that yesterday was a strike day. However, with roughly 40-50% of drivers and other front-line staff working, it never was a matter of "no goods trains possible". It was more a problem of planning these long and complicated workings, and having to give priority to passenger trains and some urgent/perishable goods.


Title: Re: Class 802s
Post by: Noggin on June 13, 2018, 03:11:17 pm
Its not a "conspiracy theory" I've just been trying to find the video of the 802 going through Dawlish during high tides. The Voyagers have a problem with the resistor packs, when sea water gets on top it shorts them out and immediately applies the brakes.  The 802s have an automatic reset for this situation which should stop it happening. https://www.thebreeze.com/southdevon/news/local-news/dawlish-proofed-trains-being-trialled-at-nights/

Plenty of places in Japan where you get Dawlish-style runs beside the sea, along with everything from sub-zero to tropical temperatures. Belgium on the other hand is not quite so demanding on rolling stock, which perhaps accounts for some of the issues


Title: Re: Class 802s
Post by: richwarwicker on June 13, 2018, 03:47:34 pm
There’s a pair of 802s in Laira Parked up nearest The main road, been there for over a week.


Title: Re: Class 802s
Post by: Rob on the hill on June 13, 2018, 06:37:40 pm
Posted on Facebook yesterday: 802009 & 802010 in middle of freight train being moved to North Pole 12/06/18.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPYDLufGsyY&feature=youtu.be

Guessing this is it on RTT:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R04908/2018/06/12/advanced