Great Western Coffee Shop

Early intelligence (or perhaps not quite so early??)

Links to consultation document:

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/cross-country-rail-franchise

This consultation closes at 11:45pm on 30 August 2018


41 pages, 28 questions.  Mirror at http://atrebatia.info/xc_consult_2018.pdf

TravelWatch SouthWest initial discussion for user groups on 22nd June - please ask me if your group would like an invite and you're not already in touch with Bryony. Space may be limited, so we really should keep this in the TWSW area - Gloucestershire, Wiltshire, Dorset and south west thereof.

Any thoughts from members here ... if anyone wants to lead with splitting out the questions and key points - either early on or after 22nd June ...

I don't feel qualified to make strategic points, but in my planning for an upcoming rail rover tour to Scotland, I am trying to avoid using XC at all (as normal) as I don't find them an attractive proposition for a relaxing journey.  Some of my reluctance is probably exaggerated, but I have an impression of a train service which struggles to provide me with a cost effective experience. 

If I book a seat I don't know if I will be travelling backwards for hours on end.  If I don't book, my unreserved seat might be taken from me after a couple of hours of settled travel. Even when travelling 1st class (which I will be this time) there is not the ambience in the Voyagers to warrant the high fares when compared with GWR or the Virgin East or West Coast - or even the faded glory of Anglia from Liverpool Street. I have yet to try an IET so hold judgement on that 1st Class offering for now. The limited assets are sweated so much, that boarding part way through the lengthy journeys sometimes means really grubby conditions.  I know the passengers are responsible for creating the mess and getting through a packed train is impossible for travelling cleaners but that's a reason not to put yourself in the mess if avoidable. (Full marks to GWR for sending around cleaners during the Portsmouth - Cardiff journey.)

The HSTs are better than the Voyagers (and Standard seats better than GWR HSTs) but I have only been on one once in the past 5 years.

The ordinary fares are high and make me think of alternatives when considering a journey exclusive to XC (including air travel).

Having said all that, I want to be fair.  I'm perhaps too fussy in my expectations of train travel. On a recent XC journey boarding a Saturday train at Tiverton Parkway on which a very few passengers had to stand to Exeter St Davids (EXD), some young people (mid-20s?) rose from their seats (obscured view, travelling backwards) at EXD and I overheard one say, 'Well that was great.  I don't know why people moan about the trains.'  Make of that what you will.  I've no idea of how far they'd travelled or how much they'd paid, what they earned etc to make them think it was good value.  As the train emptied out at EXD I was able to move to a forward facing window seat and became much more gruntled than I had been.

Staff on XC are generally polite and helpful and will be a great asset to whoever runs the next franchise.

Those Voyager trains have to be up there as the worst invention to grace our area.
They are always overcrowded, often smell horrendous and rip you off to pay for wifi

The sooner those damn things are scrapped the better

Taking an overcrowded train and scrapping it would - according to the laws of physics as I recall them - simply make for more overcrowding on whatever's left.    And scrapping trains with paid WiFi to bring in alternatives with free WiFi seems very much like a sledge hammer (or a wrecking ball) to crack a walnut.

I suspect that running them around in pairs - and adding in other new trains to take over the services from which the second of the pair may have been 'pulled' - might be a pragmatic answer to the overcrowding.  Rather than adding a new type, perhaps 9 car class 801 units might be appropriate for Manchester to Bristol and Plymouth services - running on electricity in the North and Midlands all the way from Manchester to Bromsgrove, and in the West all the way from Westerleigh Junction to Bristol Parkway.

Hmmmm, a class 801 might struggle a little between Bristol and Plymouth, as well as most of Gloucestershire  ;)



Please tell me that's tongue in cheek  :P

It's no more than a flick of a switch in the carraige between making it available or not
Am I correct in saying Crosscountry are the only franchise that still charge for wifi?
Obviously as per Government policy change they will have to drop this in the new deal anyway

CrossCountry should have been offering free WiFi by April 2018.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/better-journeys-for-passengers-on-the-cross-country-network

And XC's response to my twitter query:


Bit like GWR's commitment to Delay Repay. Agree something with the DfT then not bother. Another example of TOCs and the DfT colluding to the disbenefit of passengers. ::)

Hmmm ... technical improvements, or a chance to rake in more money while the passenger's watchdogs are sleeping?

The DfT does think XC are good ... from the consultation


Also from the consultation in reviewing how we got to where we are:

TravelWatch SouthWest consultation meeting on the Cross Country franchise - 22nd June 2018, Taunton.   A chance to hear what others are saying / listen to some experts who have been reading the document, and help formulate the TWSW and your own group's response too.    TWSW members please contact Bryony ... if this would be useful and you're not already linked to TWSW, please send me a message.

From the DfT ... video setting out the basis. From the DfT this morning

A very intersting day at TravelWatch SouthWest as our members met to discuss and consider our thoughts and work towards inputs to the Cross Country franchise consultation.  Many thanks to Peter Langham from the DfT for his introduction aftre the video, to Chris Irwin and Frank Chambers for setting the context, disecting the consultation with us question by question, and looking forward to the answer process.  A final round-robin ensured that Bryony Chetwode has captured points from all attendees, and that she will be feeding and working with Chris to get a draft response from TWSW circulated in early August.  TravelWatch SouthWest will be putting in a general response, but also encouraging individual member groups and members to make their own submissions, with an eye to requests and suggestions aligning where possible.

I am now on the train from Taunton, headed up north, and will be writing up further. Three things that shout at me as headlines from the day:
Connectivity
Capacity
Customers
More about those later as I get the opportunity.   Others very welcome to comment.

Following on my earlier post elsewhere, I have found this consultation and responded.

Three  points for our forum. Firstly I would like to speak up in support of this franchise and its two holders so far. I thought it was tough on Virgin/Stagecoach to lose the franchise having transformed the service during their tenure. However Arriva have also kept it as a very useful link between those of us in the Thames Valley and the north. The two an hour service to Birmingham, and one an hour to Manchester, Newcastle and Southampton really does provide an alternative to taking your car or struggling across London. The Voyager trains I also find comfortable, although I am aware that those over 6 feet tall find them cramped, and its a shame that there are windowless seats in most (all?) coaches. I am not able to comment on fares as most of my peak hour journeys are for work on tickets procured through work. They are not particularly quick (it would usually be quicker to go via London from Newcastle to Reading), but you can see that there is plenty of slack in the timetable to take account of the fact it crosses everyone else's networks with their problems and delays. It's quicker to Birmingham and (usually) Manchester from Reading.

Secondly- I am amazed how few people know about this service! A colleague from our Manchester office and I had a meeting in Reading, and he was surprised he could get a direct train- even more that it called at his home station, Macclesfield. Network Rail and the franchisees have not done a good job at alerting the travelling public to these useful services.

Thirdly - it occurred to me that this franchise might be a better home for one of the Cinderella services of the GW franchise, namely the Reading - Gatwick service. The service suffers from being unknown to many, made worse by the inconvenience of its departure platforms at Reading (remote 4,5 or 6 - a long walk for holiday makers loaded with luggage, and with narrow platforms) and now unsuitable trains. Until recently FGW used the airconditioned Turbos 166, which at least had extra luggage space in the centre coach, more 4 across seating and two first class sections at either end. However they have now largely been replaced by the 165s with 5 across seating in most of the standard class accommodation, one first class section at one end and which therefore end up  clogged with luggage. Not a good travelling experience, which is a shame as it's another useful service (and a pretty ride from Guildford to Reigate!).

My suggestion would be that the Gatwick service be transferred to Cross Country, perhaps as an extension of the Newcastle to Reading. I've seen elsewhere on this forum a suggestion of upping North Downs services to three an hour, so two stopping GW Reading to Guildford and Redhills and a limited stop Reading to Gatwick operated by XC could be the answer. Perhaps the fragmented nature of franchises and their renewal rules this out. I also appreciate that platform lengths apart from Reading, Wokingham, Guildford and Redhill are probably inadequate. No doubt more knowledgeable users of this forum will know of other problems.

However, would Grahame's colleagues in Wiltshire welcome the opportunity of a single change of train at Reading to get to Gatwick as part of the new franchise?     

Two immediate issues with this:

1) Cross country is an intercity service and Reading Gatwick stops at every farm gate along the way!
2) Reading Gatwick is 2 x an hour and Reading Newcastle is hourly

Additional rolling stock, staff, and servicing/stabling facilities would be needed. I'm not sure XC could easily find such at the Gatwick end.

The line service is two an hour, but one is a slow stopper calling all stations between Wokingham and Ash, then Guildford, and terminating usually at  Guildford, Shalford or Redhill, if they go beyond Guildford there is a mixed pattern of stops towards Redhill: the second is a limited stop service missing Crowthorne, Sandhurst, Farnborough North, Ash and anything other than Dorking Deapdene, Reigate and Redhill after Guildford. There used to be a few XC Gatwicks under Virgin management, and there is still one early morning from Guildford and a train arrives at Guildford in the early evening, so I guess there must be room to add more.

The former VXC services that called at Gatwick didn't use the North Downs Lines though. They ran via the GWML to Acton then onto Kensington Olympia and Brighton, calling at Gatwick.

I think the ship has sailed for reintroducing such services. The paths needed on the Great Western Main Line, through Kenny O and onto the Brighton Main Line are no longer there. It was always a struggle to maintain the paths back in the day. There are many more services on those lines now.

I don't see that's amy different to what's available at present from stations on the Berks and Hants and London - Bristol lines.


A massive question in the franchise - "what's XC it for"  - Intercity and / or shorter journeys and can it / should it cover both in some places,  should some services be transferred out (or in) and on soma lines can you / should you be providing local trains additionally to XC?   Questions like "do you serve Bridgwater" are interesting.

Reading to Gatwick is strongly tipped to go up to three services per hour ... as I understand it, the sticking point is the safety case / extra use of level crossings.  It would be two fast Gatwicks and a slower Redhill. There is also the question in the short term of rolling stock (but 769s on order) and perhaps lack of train crew.

I understood from the consultation meeting in Taunton that the DfT want to remove the Guildford & Bath calls in the new ITT....although Graham is correct in that they do ask whether they ought to be serving other destinations, you would need to identify the additional stock to do this.

There are plenty of spare HSTs for their core network to strengthen services =, but unsuitable to go to Gatwick. It would need to be relatively fast though, very limited stops - would there even be a path every hour? With no Gatwick platform to terminate in, it's likely to be a non-starter

There were both: some via London, some via the North Downs. All chronicled in remarkable detail at http://www.1s76.com/ .

I think you can see what XC is for by looking at the shape of its route map - a rather wiggly thin "X" that's largely circumferential to London, so it cuts across the long-distance franchises that still keep the London-centric shape of the old companies. So it's not really for all local/regional links between next-door franchise areas; they can do them themselves. It's for just some of those between main centres where via London is too long and slow. Ideally it should use fast lines, too, so as to not duplicate the territorial franchises and also to make longer-distance trips worthwhile.

North Downs (and on to Reading) doesn't fit as you'd be better off going via London for anywhere north of Reading, and it isn't a fast line.

The service requirement has been 2 tph to Gatwick since the 2006 franchise, but NR have not  been able to provide the paths for both. The excuse for this has varied, but having built P7 at Gatwick and P0 at Redhill they have now come up with the level crossing at Reigate. A third stopping train to Redhill has now been added to the SLC as no-one ever managed to make the 2 tph work given the conflict between serving all stops sometime and giving fast access to Gatwick itself.

So, as you can see, the Reading/Gatwick service is regarded as primarily  "for" access to Gatwick Airport across SWR and most of GWR areas, for which via London isn't so helpful (though may still be quicker!). Secondarily, it does local commuter travel for Reading, Wokingham, Camberley/Farnborough Guildford, and I presume Dorking, Reigate, Redhill, and Gatwick too (and loads of schoolkids). It isn't at all clear that fits in with XC's mandate.

As to the trains - the 165 to 166 difference in seating and cooling isn't that much really, especially in the done-up ones. The luggage areas never seemed to take most of the airline suitcases out of the aisles either. The big difference will be the change to gutless 769s, if that's what we get.

Alternate Newcastle to Reading services already extend to Southampton, and I’m sure there are existing strategy documents that recommend extending the other services through to Southampton if paths became available.
Can’t see removal of the existing Southampton extensions anyway, so that probably means you only have a 2 hourly train to find a route for...

Paul

Not a lot of use when one thing you need for an airport service is to at least run hourly

You are right. My memory was clouded by the fact I'd only ever been the Kenny O way. Understandable as after the failure of Operation Princess the only Cross Country services that used the North Downs Line were very early in the morning from Gatwick and late at night back, or Sunday only.

Even back then the paths these trains had were poor and slow. Today I suspect such paths are non-existent.

Thanks all for your views on the Gatwick suggestion - DfT have my suggestion in my consultation response, but it sounds like plenty of reasons to say "no" - another bright idea bites the dust?

As a regular commuter on the North Downs line, the comment about use of 165s and 166s and luggage is from personal experience. Strangely though this morning there were more 166s in evidence. Is the manager of Reading depot out there behind one of your aliases?

As regards Grahame's question about what XC is for, the answer is (I think) simple. It is to provide direct train services between the larger urban areas of the country without going via London. The fact that at times the services are also used by commuters and get busy, such as at rush hour around Birmingham should not derogate from this role - after all most mainline services into London become crowded commuter trains at peak times too. I would be against trying to limit the use of XC services at peak times - why take capacity out of Leamington to Birmingham that will simply result in other services becoming even more crowded, or their passengers taking their cars instead? This is one of the reasons I oppose removing XC services from north of Northallerton. XC services provide capacity on the lines they run on - removing an XC an hour would presumably allow another train that starts at London to use its path, but the continuing problems with the East Coast franchise hardly indicates unmet demand, and the XC services are capacity for Doncaster-York-Newcastle passengers, to say nothing of those from Leeds and Harrogate with one change of trains. Not all journeys start and finish at London.

As regards time, longer journeys may take longer than via London, but if you are travelling for leisure/holidays, which is a large part of XC's business, it is attractive to avoid hauling across London by tube - the same applies to Reading-Gatwick.   

As you may gather, I am a bit of a fan - please don't give First the franchise! If we are to persuade more people to leave their cars at home and use the train, we need a decent Cross Country network.